OOTS #1224 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Goblin_Priest]

Wow! I wasn't expecting another so quickly! Amazing!

[Keltest]

Odd. When i actually view the comic, it shows it as the latest one on the feed to the left. From the forums, it still shows 1223 as the lastest.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems corrected now.

[Ferrick]

Poor Paladins. Luckily for them, i'm sure they'll be released and let into the fight as soon as they're required by the plot.

Also wow, i've never been this early before

[Peelee]

Are those fumes from acid? Is it acid? I'm guessing acid. Get a nice Indiana Jones "acid, why did it have to be acid" moment from O-Chul and all.

[Metastachydium]

Cool one. I strongly hope panel no. 4 will silence the „you have a rogue, you have the Gate” crew at long last.
Also, I see reason to suspect the next one will be an all-paladin strip, maybe with Green and Orange.

[link3710]

So usually I'd say there's no chance of this ambush plan working... But I'm thinking it will. Xykon's Phylactery is still unaccounted for, and it doesn't exactly take him long to recover from 'death'. Redcloak will obviously survive as well. Mostly, I'm curious to see how the MitD acts during the fight, that's where the true dramatic potential is.

[Schroeswald]

I hope this is a transition to Lien and O-Chul doing stuff, I miss those crazy kids

[Peelee]

So usually I'd say there's no chance of this ambush plan working... But I'm thinking it will. Xykon's Phylactery is still unaccounted for

Redcloak has it.

Does that make me an accountant?

[RedScholarGypsy]

Learning for past mistakes? We really have entered the endgame. Love the dialog bouncing from different perspectives. And "Yeah paladins!" is a phrase I never thought I'd say...

Also, remember the trap is disabled for about twenty seconds, or three rounds I'd guess. With a surprise round, it should be doable to disable the trap, divide team evil onto two different sides of the line, then let it reactivate and finish off whomever you got. Separate RC from X, and you have a very winnable fight.

[Xihirli]

That’s what I’m most excited about. What will Redcloak do with Xykon’s phylactery once Xykon is destroyed and, more to the point, knows Redcloak kept it?
He has a very tiny window with which to destroy it and might not be able to.

Though he must have had SOMETHING in mind when he had the fake made aside from “and when Xykon regenerates, I die.”

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank you Giant, I've been hoping to see Lien and O-Chul again.

Mostly, I'm curious to see how the MitD acts during the fight, that's where the true dramatic potential is. During an ambush, MiTD reacts by ... yeah, that's quite the unknown.

But my favorite bit from this strip is:

:belkar: I love it when you talk fighting dirty to me.

Belkar gets so many good lines ...

Other nice notes:
Panel 2. Yes; stop Xykon is the mission.
Panel 5: doing double duty, keeping something from escaping. :roy:
Panel 8: we don't know where Lien and O-Chul are plus Durkon's point on "Redcloak hasn't got them captive"

Xykon was about to kill V and O-Chul before the MiTD teleportish thing. Redcloak, as noted in strip, has no love for Azurites and has a particular dislike for Paladins.

Poor O-Chul: stuck in the prisoner role again. This has got to be getting old for him. :smallfrown:

[Coyote0715]

Was it determined how they get back out? If they walk through the trap now (without disabling), they wind up at the dead end? And if they then walk through the trap again from the dead end, where to they wind up? Back where they are now? So, we (and they) are thinking the only way back out is to temporarily disable the trap again?

[Shining Wrath]

O'Chul and Lien are not only alive, they're relative healthy and not being actively tortured! Good to see!

And yes, ambushing Xykon from behind as he exits the dungeon is a winning move - just so long as whatever is being kept inside by the teleport trap doesn't show up first. Or during.

Why has it not occurred to Redcloak or Oona that those wooden doors wouldn't stop the monsters they are fighting in the dungeons? What keeps the monsters from coming out?

[Metastachydium]

Just realized how bad the Order's current plan could turn out. If Haley actually kills the trap, they will have to absolutely steamroll Team Evil, lest they find the real corridor. (Of course, if she only bypasses it again, half the problem is solved, but the issue that they may alert Team Evil that they've been missing something in the dungeons if they are spotted emerging from the door would still be there.)


Mostly, I'm curious to see how the MitD acts during the fight, that's where the true dramatic potential is.

He's, kind of, not there?



Does that make me an accountant?

Yes.

[hroþila]

Cut to Lien and O-Chul after discussing the Gate's defenses at some length. This will irrationally reinforce my belief that Lien and O-Chul have been captured by Serini's associates.

[Shining Wrath]

So usually I'd say there's no chance of this ambush plan working... But I'm thinking it will. Xykon's Phylactery is still unaccounted for, and it doesn't exactly take him long to recover from 'death'. Redcloak will obviously survive as well. Mostly, I'm curious to see how the MitD acts during the fight, that's where the true dramatic potential is.

The MitD is not with Team Evil. He didn't participate in the fight with Durkon and Minrah (if he had, it probably would have ended quickly and messily), and we haven't seen him during the chase. Which is another reason to take Xykon down now - he's short a powerful ally.


Redcloak has it.

Does that make me an accountant?

If Xykon reforms and finds himself 6' from Redcloak, not in his impenetrable astral plane fortress, Xykon will rightly conclude he has been betrayed by Redcloak, and hijinks will ensue. Including the triggering of the order by Xykon to the MitD to devour Redcloak.

We may be getting close to The Big Reveal.

[ReaderAt2046]

Nice, new strip!

Good to see Roy using those Int and Wis scores.

Also, good to see our paladin friends again. Hopefully we'll get to find out what the Voices are up to, (and what they actually are) soon!

[Mephit]

Was it determined how they get back out? If they walk through the trap now (without disabling), they wind up at the dead end? And if they then walk through the trap again from the dead end, where to they wind up? Back where they are now? So, we (and they) are thinking the only way back out is to temporarily disable the trap again?

Yes to all those questions. The OoTS is in the real tunnel that leads from the door, the trap is just a portal that transports you somewhere else. If you want to get to the other side of the trap, you *have* to disable it. (or tunnel around?)

I have no empathy with paladins, they know what they signed up for. :smalltongue:

[maxon]

Always great when The Giant gets into a posting streak. That was great.

[Sesharan]

I'm trying to imagine how this could go wrong, and honestly I'm coming up pretty much blank? I guess Team Evil could notice the scorch mark on the way out or escape the ambush or something, but this seems like a pretty perfect opportunity for the Order— plenty of time to buff, weakened enemies, basically no chance of detection. If they can't beat Team Evil here, they're gonna need a heck of a training montage before they try again.

[Metastachydium]

If Xykon reforms and finds himself 6' from Redcloak, not in his impenetrable astral plane fortress, Xykon will rightly conclude he has been betrayed by Redcloak, and hijinks will ensue.

1. Xykon cannot just reform immediately once his body gets destroyed, the process takes some time, so Redcloak will have time to take measures were that to happen.
2. I don't know where the phylactery is, but it's definitely not 6' away from Redcloak. I'd guess it's either on him or in the village.


Including the triggering of the order by Xykon to the MitD to devour Redcloak.

There's the issue that he still isn't around to do so. Also, he may not be smart enough to realize when exactly Redcloak betrays Xykon and we know the spell doesn't trigger if he doesn't know what's going on. Otherwise he would have attacked Redcloak already.
Now, what I'd find nice would be Xykon turning on Redcloak and the Order saving him from the Bony Bastard, which could serve as a good starting point for renewed discussions.

[Lord Torath]

I hope this is a transition to Lien and O-Chul doing stuff, I miss those crazy kidsMe too. I wonder if the paladins were nabbed because Serini also didn't like Soon much. She didn't try to kill them like Girard did, but maybe she didn't want any interference.

Also, I wonder about the instructions left to the voices. Do they know that once the paladins show up, their days are numbered? Do they know the other gates have been destroyed?

Edit: Thanks, Rich! :biggrin:

[Crusher]

Ha!

Well, Lien isn't wrong. I mean, sure, help isn't *specifically* on the way to save them. But help isn't *not* on the way to save them either.

[Metastachydium]

I'm trying to imagine how this could go wrong, and honestly I'm coming up pretty much blank?

„Just realized how bad the Order's current plan could turn out. If Haley actually kills the trap, they will have to absolutely steamroll Team Evil, lest they find the real corridor. (Of course, if she only bypasses it again, half the problem is solved, but the issue that they may alert Team Evil that they've been missing something in the dungeons if they are spotted emerging from the door would still be there.)”

[Sesharan]

Actually, it does occur to me to wonder: Are there any of the voices who captured O-Chul and Lien in the canyon/tunnels right now? Because that is definitely something that could go wrong. Especially if they know about the trap and can bypass it to get to the Order.

[GooeyChewie]

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!

[Peelee]

Me too. I wonder if the paladins were nabbed because Serini also didn't like Soon much.

Doubtful. They're intruders. Doesn't matter how Serini felt about Soon, there should not be intruders.

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[SlashDash]

Am I the only one who is disappointed that when Hailey said she wasn't "one of a kind", Elan should have jumped and said "Yes you are"?

[Sesharan]

„Just realized how bad the Order's current plan could turn out. If Haley actually kills the trap, they will have to absolutely steamroll Team Evil, lest they find the real corridor. (Of course, if she only bypasses it again, half the problem is solved, but the issue that they may alert Team Evil that they've been missing something in the dungeons if they are spotted emerging from the door would still be there.)”

Yeah, I get that. I just filed it more under "consequences of the plan" than under "ways the plan itself could go wrong".

[KorvinStarmast]

Why has it not occurred to Redcloak or Oona that those wooden doors wouldn't stop the monsters they are fighting in the dungeons? What keeps the monsters from coming out? "Magic" may be as far as Oona and her friends need to know; there is a shaman at the village (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html). (Also note here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)).

Yes. Oof. You really know how to hurt a guy .. :smalleek:

The MitD is not with Team Evil. {snip}{ Which is another reason to take Xykon down now - he's short a powerful ally. Ah, yeah, I keep forgetting about that.

If Xykon reforms and finds himself 6' from Redcloak, not in his impenetrable astral plane fortress, Xykon will rightly conclude he has been betrayed by Redcloak, and hijinks will ensue. Including the triggering of the order by Xykon to the MitD to devour Redcloak.
We may be getting close to The Big Reveal. And what the IFCC is up to ...

[Shining Wrath]

1. Xykon cannot just reform immediately once his body gets destroyed, the process takes some time, so Redcloak will have time to take measures were that to happen.
2. I don't know where the phylactery is, but it's definitely not 6' away from Redcloak. I'd guess it's either on him or in the village.



There's the issue that he still isn't around to do so. Also, he may not be smart enough to realize when exactly Redcloak betrays Xykon and we know the spell doesn't trigger if he doesn't know what's going on. Otherwise he would have attacked Redcloak already.
Now, what I'd find nice would be Xykon turning on Redcloak and the Order saving him from the Bony Bastard, which could serve as a good starting point for renewed discussions.

A "slain" lich reforms near their phylactery. I think 6' is the radius, but close. In earlier strips, Xykon literally reformed from the phylactery - he grew from the head down.
Agree that it's not instantaneous, but Redcloak has no way to get the real phylactery into Xykon's Fortress of Meanness, so unless he destroys it (how?), Xykon reforms somewhere and knows he was betrayed.

[SlashDash]

Extra thought.... If the party is setting up a trap for Xykon...

Are going to get a return for Explosive Runes? Seems like one of their better trap spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon! Many Happy Returns! :smallsmile:

A "slain" lich reforms near their phylactery. I think 6' is the radius, but close. In earlier strips, Xykon literally reformed from the phylactery - he grew from the head down.
Agree that it's not instantaneous, but Redcloak has no way to get the real phylactery into Xykon's Fortress of Meanness, so unless he destroys it (how?), Xykon reforms somewhere and knows he was betrayed. And then the fun begins.

I am thinking through a combat scenari: Roy's sword and spell splinter maneuver seem to me to be the key to Roy getting the better of Xykon; Xykon's casting of spells, and the level at which he casts them, is substantial - dwarfing V's magical capability.
The rest of the party needs to keep Redcloak busy, and prevent him from disabling Roy with something like Dominate or Hold Person. I think Belkar and Bloodfeast (who will make a brilliant return! {somehow}) can handle Oona and Greyview.

Somehow, I hope that Rich ends up with some kind of octagonal pattern on the ground for the Belkar/Oona battle:
Two Rangers Enter, One Ranger Leaves!

[Robots]

Ah, an update so soon?! That was fast!!

"I love it when you talk fighting dirty to me" lol

Also now we know O-Chul and Lien are OK!!!!!!!

I'm so excited to possibly see their mystery captors. (We might not see them now, but still!!!)

Also, I'm supposed to be working. I should get back to that now. So long!

[Sesharan]

I do wonder if the IFCC will use up one of their soul grabs here. If they need Xykon and/or Redcloak alive, they may have no choice, but this ambush opportunity is so good that even that might not be enough to tilt the scales.

[Metastachydium]

I think 6' is the radius, but close.

My mistake.


Agree that it's not instantaneous, but Redcloak has no way to get the real phylactery into Xykon's Fortress of Meanness, so unless he destroys it (how?), Xykon reforms somewhere and knows he was betrayed.

Taking it to the Fortress is indeed not an option, but destroying it probably is. Redcloak had an ample amount of time to figure out how to do it and to remove some of the buffs.

[understatement]

Dang, Roy, shouldn't have said that. Plans never work when you say them out loud.

Glad to see Lien and O-Chul are (relatively) okay.

[facw]

Redcloak has it.


Redcloak had it. We have no idea if he still does. It would make sense for him to, but he could easily have stashed it elsewhere since we last saw it.

[Peelee]

Redcloak had it. We have no idea if he still does.

We also have no idea if he is still alive, or still a cleric. But I feel pretty confident in saying "yes, still" to all three unless we are given any actual reason to doubt. This far, we are given no reason to doubt he doesn't still have the phylactery on him.

[Lord Torath]

Doubtful. They're intruders. Doesn't matter how Serini felt about Soon, there should not be intruders.They haven't moved against Redcloak and Xykon, though, and they are definitely intruders. Is it that they're accompanying Oona that they're not considered intruders?

[Frozenstep]

So if team evil ends up finding the gate in the tunnel they just went down, the order has no way of knowing. That said, given this whole teleportation set-up, I don't think you can get to the gate by just choosing the right door accidentally.

I feel like at some point in this book, Xykon's body gets destroyed, and redcloak escapes. Then he's left with a choice, to either negotiate or deal with Xykon realizing he's not reforming in his fortress.

[subtledoctor]

Cool one. I strongly hope panel no. 4 will silence the „you have a rogue, you have the Gate” crew at long last.

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...


Also, I see reason to suspect the next one will be an all-paladin strip, maybe with Green and Orange.

Speaking of which, is there discussion of them anywhere? I recently re-read strip 1189 and I realized some details I missed the first time (about, among other things, the number of arms and legs possessed by the invisible people).

[Gallowglass]

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...
.

The Giant has, multiple times, stated that he does NOT read the comment threads and does NOT modify the comic based on what is in the comment threads.

I'm not sure I believe that, given how on the nose some of the in comic commentary is toward explaining things that often irrational viewers in the comment threads come up with that don't really need to be explained. But I give him the benefit of the doubt as he gives us wonderful comics.

[Metastachydium]

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...

I think it happened before, but I wouldn't say it's typical and I definitely wouldn't assume all of it is in response to the forum discussions.


Speaking of which, is there discussion of them anywhere? I recently re-read strip 1189 and I realized some details I missed the first time (about, among other things, the number of arms and legs possessed by the invisible people).

We discussed them several times, if that is what you are curious about. Much of this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622932-OOTS-1220-The-Discussion-Thread/page8) is devoted to such a discussion.


They haven't moved against Redcloak and Xykon, though, and they are definitely intruders. Is it that they're accompanying Oona that they're not considered intruders?

Or, they aren't working for Serini?

[JSSheridan]

Help is on the way Lien, just not for you

Thanks Giant!

[Doug Lampert]

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...

It's typical for people to feel that way, but in the book it will flow and you get the information you need when you need it.

Rich SETS UP questions like "how does this trap work", the forums frantically speculate for weeks, Rich then answers "how does this trap work" in the next comic and people wonder if he's addressing the forum. The answer is no.

Now: When he had the long discussion of possible names for the vampire version of Durkon, THAT may have been a response to the forums. It wasn't really needed for the story and the character's casually threw out a dozen suggestions better than most forum suggestions. But in general, when Rich wants to reply to the forums he POSTS in the forums.

[TheNecrocomicon]

2. I don't know where the phylactery is, but it's definitely not 6' away from Redcloak. I'd guess it's either on him or in the village.

Redcloak had it. We have no idea if he still does. It would make sense for him to, but he could easily have stashed it elsewhere since we last saw it.

In the strip when Redcloak claimed the fake phylactery off of the dead elder craftsman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) he hired to make it, he kept the fake in a fancy carrying case, and promptly dropped the real one into what I would figure is a Bag of Holding, which is probably still on his person for safekeeping (while Xykon snatched the carrying case with the fake phylactery).

I guess the question for me is, would there be any way to escape or burst out of the demiplane or extraplanar space that constitutes a Bag of Holding? Especially when one doesn't have limbs yet?

[Zhorn]

:belkar: I love it when you talk fighting dirty to me.

me too :smallbiggrin:

Great work as always, Giant. Thankyou.

[Fyraltari]

"Keep something in"? I smell a relative of tMitD coming!


Cool one. I strongly hope panel no. 4 will silence the „you have a rogue, you have the Gate” crew at long last.
Also, I see reason to suspect the next one will be an all-paladin strip, maybe with Green and Orange.
Between the next panel and the Order's decision to stay put, this is definitely a transition.

Learning for past mistakes? We really have entered the endgame. Love the dialog bouncing from different perspectives. And "Yeah paladins!" is a phrase I never thought I'd say...

Also, remember the trap is disabled for about twenty seconds, or three rounds I'd guess. With a surprise round, it should be doable to disable the trap, divide team evil onto two different sides of the line, then let it reactivate and finish off whomever you got. Separate RC from X, and you have a very winnable fight.
Ah good point, I was wondering why Haley wanted to disable the trap rather than simply spring on their back. This makes more sense.

Was it determined how they get back out? If they walk through the trap now (without disabling), they wind up at the dead end? And if they then walk through the trap again from the dead end, where to they wind up? Back where they are now? So, we (and they) are thinking the only way back out is to temporarily disable the trap again?
Well, this tunnel is presumably going somewhere.

Why has it not occurred to Redcloak or Oona that those wooden doors wouldn't stop the monsters they are fighting in the dungeons? What keeps the monsters from coming out?
Well the outside is the arctic so...

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!
Merry birthday to you.

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...



Speaking of which, is there discussion of them anywhere? I recently re-read strip 1189 and I realized some details I missed the first time (about, among other things, the number of arms and legs possessed by the invisible people).
No, we're just that predictible.

[HandofShadows]

"Help" is on the way. A very long way I think.

[Kantaki]

For some reason I find Roy and Belkar being on the same wavelength kinda concerning.
But at the same time it means this will be fun.:smallamused:

[Metastachydium]

In the strip when Redcloak claimed the fake phylactery off of the dead elder craftsman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) he hired to make it, he kept the fake in a fancy carrying case, and promptly dropped the real one into what I would figure is a Bag of Holding, which is probably still on his person for safekeeping (while Xykon snatched the carrying case with the fake phylactery).

I guess the question for me is, would there be any way to escape or burst out of the demiplane or extraplanar space that constitutes a Bag of Holding? Especially when one doesn't have limbs yet?

That's a very interesting question/idea. I checked the SRD for an answer and came up mostly empty. I did find a useful bit of information, however:

If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever.
That would mean all Redcloak needs to get an angry Xykon off his back is a cheap dagger. If the phylactery is in the bag, Xykon is in the phylactery and the bag ruptures, Xykon should get lost forever.

[b_jonas]

And yes, ambushing Xykon from behind as he exits the dungeon is a winning move I don't see why. In fact I think it's worse than just ambushing Team Evil from outside the canyon as he is about to exit. If the Order is ambushing them from the inside, then some of Team Evil can try to escape towards the canyon where they may have allies.

[Peelee]

In the strip when Redcloak claimed the fake phylactery off of the dead elder craftsman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) he hired to make it, he kept the fake in a fancy carrying case, and promptly dropped the real one into what I would figure is a Bag of Holding, which is probably still on his person for safekeeping (while Xykon snatched the carrying case with the fake phylactery).

I guess the question for me is, would there be any way to escape or burst out of the demiplane or extraplanar space that constitutes a Bag of Holding? Especially when one doesn't have limbs yet?
Redcloak's backup holy symbol is diamond-shaped. Redcloak's current holy symbol (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) is round. And I, for one, find that quite interesting.

[137beth]

Now is Elan going to point out that Haley was probably just hit by dramatic irony, or will he fall for it too to maximize the irony?

[Vrock Bait]

Redcloak's backup holy symbol is diamond-shaped. Redcloak's current holy symbol (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) is round. And I, for one, find that quite interesting.

Yeah, that was weird. I saw that the second we saw him in the Bugbear village, but I assumed it was a stylistic mistake. Maybe it’s the real phylactery? Why hasn’t Xykon noticed?

[locksmith of lo]

dun dun dun duuuuun!

nobody expects an update on a wednesday after only five days! :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Yeah, that was weird. I saw that the second we saw him in the Bugbear village, but I assumed it was a stylistic mistake. Maybe it’s the real phylactery? Why hasn’t Xykon noticed?

Xykon thinks he has the real one. As far as he's concerned, that's just a holy symbol Redcloak dredged up so the backup one stays a backup.

Maybe. I'm just theorizing here, after all.

[tawnyterror]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like Roy's speculation that the trap is also designed to keep something in; that's not even something I would have considered prior to now. Also, poor O-Chul and Lien :smallfrown:



Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!

Happy Birthday!

[talkamancer]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

I assumed it was the snarl.

[Peelee]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?
There's at least one theory.

Are those fumes from acid? Is it acid? I'm guessing acid. Get a nice Indiana Jones "acid, why did it have to be acid" moment from O-Chul and all.




I assumed it was the snarl.

I'll take that bet.

[Hiro Quester]

Dang, Roy, shouldn't have said that. Plans never work when you say them out loud.

Glad to see Lien and O-Chul are (relatively) okay.

I think we’re going to cut away to Lien and O-Chul, and miss the ambush preparations.

That way we don’t break Elan’s rule. We won’t know the details of the ambush plan, so it will still have the required dramatic tension.

[Fyraltari]

I assumed it was the snarl.

The Snarl is purple and blue (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html), this is yellow/green and gray.

[cybishop]

I logged in for the first time in a very long time to point something out. I hope Haley's ambush doesn't involve grappling Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html). That's one way the plan could backfire.

[hewhosaysfish]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

Very toxic sulphur fumes? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html)

[Gnoman]

„Just realized how bad the Order's current plan could turn out. If Haley actually kills the trap, they will have to absolutely steamroll Team Evil, lest they find the real corridor. (Of course, if she only bypasses it again, half the problem is solved, but the issue that they may alert Team Evil that they've been missing something in the dungeons if they are spotted emerging from the door would still be there.)”

Note that the Order had no idea there was anything wrong until Roy's attack failed to connect. This means the tunnels are similar enough to have no giveaway that the trap was disabled.

Note also that the entire reason that Xykon and Redcloak are in this tunnel is that they were chasing Durkon.

So, you're chasing a dwarf and are suddenly attacked from behind by that dwarf's known allies. Either this is the result of a trap so subtle and well made that you went through it repeatedly without noticing, or else the dwarf led you into a preplanned ambush. Which is going to seem more likely?

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Nice strip. Ochul's expression is a great counter point to the optimism.

Interesting plan by OotS... putting all their eggs into the surprise basket. When Team Evil beats them, they will have revealed the location of the true entrance. Should be fun!

[Finagle]

I only started reading the forums this last week... but it seems like strips 1223 and 1224 sort of speak directly to some of the discussions here. Is that typical? Gives the strips some added dimension...
The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.

[CaptainMendax]

I find O-Chul's expression hilarious. "God dang it, not this imprisoned crap again."

Might not be what Rich intended, but it made me chuckle.

[Fyraltari]

I logged in for the first time in a very long time to point something out. I hope Haley's ambush doesn't involve grappling Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html). That's one way the plan could backfire.
It won't because nobody wants to have to make sense of the grappling rules.
Did I make my D&D joke right?

The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.
The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.

[Metastachydium]

Note that the Order had no idea there was anything wrong until Roy's attack failed to connect. This means the tunnels are similar enough to have no giveaway that the trap was disabled.

Note also that the entire reason that Xykon and Redcloak are in this tunnel is that they were chasing Durkon.

So, you're chasing a dwarf and are suddenly attacked from behind by that dwarf's known allies. Either this is the result of a trap so subtle and well made that you went through it repeatedly without noticing, or else the dwarf led you into a preplanned ambush. Which is going to seem more likely?

I'd put it differently: you chase a dwarf, the dwarf runs into a tunnel. The dwarf then disappear, and neither your True Seeing, nor your worg can locate 'em. Then suddenly, as you leave the tunnel, the dwarf emerges from it having grown half an army and the floor of the tunnel is visibly discoloured.
Redcloak would definitely conclude that something's fishy.

[danielxcutter]

Ambushing Team Evil right after they come out, probably weakened, isn't that bad of a plan, but the problem is that if you do the math Xykon is at the level where he should be able to curbstomp them with absolute ease. Even his minimum CR is on the level of a Solar and less restrictive estimates range in the high 20s or even low 30s.

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?


The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.
Durkon can bypass Xykon's DR effortlessly, but the problem is hitting. He's so behind on levels from the rest of the Order he's practically a cohort. And while clerics can buff their melee prowess to ridiculous amounts, that typically takes a few rounds without Persistent or Quicken Spell, feats Durkon's never shown - and he's certainly not going to have the rounds to cast those in combat, or maybe even the spell slots. Minrah is going to be doing even less against Xykon.
Haley and Belkar are basically useless because they're going to be doing at most single-digit damage against him. Elan can use bardic music at least, but the rest of his spells don't really work against Xykon.
Few spells V can cast or possibly will ever cast have much effect on Xykon. Blasting's out aside from Magic Missile, enchantments are out since he's undead, the Hand spells can't do anything due to those new Boots of Freedom of Movement Xykon got in the dungeons and even things like Forcecage both prevent the rest of the Order from attacking him and also can be bypassed by Xykon just teleporting out of them. Not to mention that the IFCC can yoink them out of the fight whenever they want to. They might have learned Sunburst, but there's only so many they can prepare and Xykon's going to make them his primary target if they use it.

And this is just his defensive capabilities, let alone what his allies can do.

Honestly, if this was an actual game and not a story, I'd probably call BS. It's why I'm betting Xykon gets defeated once and for all because Roy bull rushes him into the Rift and the Snarl eats him.

[TuringTest]

And yes, ambushing Xykon from behind as he exits the dungeon is a winning move - just so long as whatever is being kept inside by the teleport trap doesn't show up first. Or during.

Why has it not occurred to Redcloak or Oona that those wooden doors wouldn't stop the monsters they are fighting in the dungeons? What keeps the monsters from coming out?


I'd say that's a very common trope of tabletop roleplaying :smalltongue:

The monsters NEVER go out the dungeon unless they're chasing the PJS, it's a dragon on patrol that may return any minute now, or they're goblins raiding the countryside before the start of the adventure (thus generating rumors for the PJs to follow).

[Rogar Demonblud]

The author swears up and down he does not read the forum and has not read it in years. And yet time and time again, the comic directly addresses issues or inconsistencies raised in the forum.

That's because the Playgrounders are very predictable.

[Lord Torath]

The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.
Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)"

[gatemansgc]

Wow! I wasn't expecting another so quickly! Amazing!

i know, right? first time i open firefox when i bring my computer out of sleep (after doing my stuff in icedragon and cyberfox) i check OOTS, IG and reddit! i also open a wikipedia tab in case i wanna RC patrol for vandalism.

i was not expecting another out of nowhere even though i go through the motions of checking several times per day.

i mean i'm probably one of the few here who doesn't play D&D at all yet i'm addicted to this comic XD

also it's nice to see lien and o'chul again :D they've been away since comic 1189!

[Fyraltari]

i mean i'm probably one of the few here who doesn't play D&D at all yet i'm addicted to this comic XD

I couldn't say wether non-D&D players are majority on this forum, but I definitely think we are a majority of the comic's readers.

[hungrycrow]

I think the most interesting piece of information here is that Green and Orange have facilities for taking prisoners, presumably within walking/flying distance of the Monster Hollow.

[BruceGee]

So usually I'd say there's no chance of this ambush plan working... But I'm thinking it will.
I'm putting my quatloos on "no chance at all of it working," mainly for the reasons Elan gave a few strips ago -- too soon, too many players who haven't put their pieces on the board yet to have the big epic confrontation. Plus isn't it practically a bardic law that the heroes must make their final stand from a position of desperation and hopeless odds, not from a position of strength?

[bguy]

Ambushing Team Evil right after they come out, probably weakened, isn't that bad of a plan, but the problem is that if you do the math Xykon is at the level where he should be able to curbstomp them with absolute ease. Even his minimum CR is on the level of a Solar and less restrictive estimates range in the high 20s or even low 30s.

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?


The closest thing to Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver in the rules is Mage Slayer, which prevents the target from casting defensively and thus actually having to make Concentration checks. Except Xykon is undead and therefore uses his Charisma instead of his Constitution. Roy can hit pretty hard, but he's not ignoring Xykon's DR. So if the SSM remotely works like that then he's going to have trouble disrupting Xykon's spells. And any rounds spent readying an attack are rounds he's not smashing Xykon's skull in.
Durkon can bypass Xykon's DR effortlessly, but the problem is hitting. He's so behind on levels from the rest of the Order he's practically a cohort. And while clerics can buff their melee prowess to ridiculous amounts, that typically takes a few rounds without Persistent or Quicken Spell, feats Durkon's never shown - and he's certainly not going to have the rounds to cast those in combat, or maybe even the spell slots. Minrah is going to be doing even less against Xykon.
Haley and Belkar are basically useless because they're going to be doing at most single-digit damage against him. Elan can use bardic music at least, but the rest of his spells don't really work against Xykon.
Few spells V can cast or possibly will ever cast have much effect on Xykon. Blasting's out aside from Magic Missile, enchantments are out since he's undead, the Hand spells can't do anything due to those new Boots of Freedom of Movement Xykon got in the dungeons and even things like Forcecage both prevent the rest of the Order from attacking him and also can be bypassed by Xykon just teleporting out of them. Not to mention that the IFCC can yoink them out of the fight whenever they want to. They might have learned Sunburst, but there's only so many they can prepare and Xykon's going to make them his primary target if they use it.

And this is just his defensive capabilities, let alone what his allies can do.

Honestly, if this was an actual game and not a story, I'd probably call BS. It's why I'm betting Xykon gets defeated once and for all because Roy bull rushes him into the Rift and the Snarl eats him.

On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.

Furthermore, it is also relatively easy to find comics answering questions that the forum never asked, demonstrating that Rich isn't reading the forum to know what to answer, but instead predicts the kind of questions that might be in any reader's minds (whether they are forum members or not) and tries to address them.

Thinking that Rich adds text to answer the forum, I feel, is egotism of the highest degree. We aren't that crucial to Rich's writing process. We are, in fact, utterly irrelevant to it.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not quite. We do pay for it by buying stuff.

*goes to look for interesting stuff at CafePress*

[cybishop]

Even ignoring the admittedly imprecise CR system... what are they going to do against him?

With our outside-universe knowledge as readers, the Order's best strategy is probably to drag Redcloak and optionally also Oona through the booby trap and kill or at least incapacitate them while Xykon is cut off from them. Redcloak has already used a few high-level spell slots. That multi-dimensional stone probably also interferes with Word of Recall so he might not be able to retreat. This puts Team Evil's plan for the gate on hold indefinitely, because they need a high-level divine caster, and leaves the Order much better off and Team Evil much worse off in the next encounter.

With only their in-universe knowledge, they'll probably focus on whichever of Team Evil looks the most damaged and try to finish them off. This is essentially a gamble on how Team Evil's dungeon delve goes. It's assuming Team Evil gets in serious fights to begin with. They just opened their second door with a big red X on it and presumably are finding it occupied by monsters. This should make them very suspicious about their search. They might fight one oddly large rat and regroup. That would be bad for the Order's plan.

So maybe they'll start off with the second thing, notice it's not going well after they're already in combat, and exploit the booby trap as an escape plan?

[gatemansgc]

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)"

also of course the giant has stated before that he goes by the basic rules of the game unless they'd get in the way of the story. story is everything and it's paid off in such a great webcomic!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not quite. We do pay for it by buying stuff.

*goes to look for interesting stuff at CafePress*

That is important to the comic as an enterprise (although I prefer the efficiency of subscribing to his Patreon, my economic teacher always insisted that regular, smaller predictable payments are preferable to larger singular unpredictable ones), but not to the writing process itself. Yes, yes, "one must have a roof above one's head and a belly full to write" and the like, but if Rich were to explain his writing process (and indeed, I think he has), there is no "check the forums to see what questions have arisen needing an answer" step.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Thinking that Rich adds text to answer the forum, I feel, is egotism of the highest degree.

Grey Wolf

Speaking as someone who regularly exercises egotism of the highest degree, I feel like this is egotism of a slightly smaller degree.

[RblDiver]

Minor point of order, I know he at least occasionally checks at least the first page of forum notes. There have been times people've pointed out some inconsistency that he's then corrected, but yeah few and far between and not to a significant degree :P

[Drake Halfmoon]

On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that. And it won't protect them whatsoever from physical damage which Oona and Greyview dish out in bulk. I think the X-factor here is the Monster in the Darkness. He knows they are friends of O-Chul, and O-Chul's friends are effectively his friends. Additionally, the Order have knowledge that could "upset the balance" between Redcloak and Xykon, namely Redcloak's true intentions. This falls back in line with the MitD since Xykon instilled a mental command to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him.

I know if Redcloak dies, that would likely doom any chance of getting the Dark One's aid, but I think there's another deity who could be used instead. :elan:

[Jasdoif]

It won't because nobody wants to have to make sense of the grappling rules.If anyone casts freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm), you'll know why.


The issues raised on this forum are raised in response to the content of the comic, Rich, knowing what is in the comic, is very well placed to guess ahead of time what issues would pop up in the mind of the readers and answer them.Indeed.


Lol. My thoughts EXACTLY.
I expect to see some Author Commentary in the next book on this very page; "Now everyone on the forums had their panties in a twist with what Crystal was, how she got there, and who brought her back. There was so much arguing and speculation, I decided "Screw IT!" and just cast 'Summon Plot Exposition!"No. More like when I introduce something that's not immediately apparent, I always have a plan for, at some point, explaining what's going on—it's just that everyone spends all their energy arguing about it from the moment it shows up that by the time I get around to explaining, everyone else is so sick of arguing and speculation that they project their feelings on to me.

I'm explaining these things now because to not do so at some point would be a glaring omission, nothing more. What people speculate about on the forum doesn't really matter to me very much. If I really just wanted to shut up forum-goers, I would just post a clarification here, not spend comic time explaining something that I don't think needs explaining.

For example, people have been confused about how Bozzok found them, and I assure you no explanation is forthcoming in the comic beyond the information already revealed, because it can be easily deduced and it doesn't need further dwelling upon for the story to make sense.


I couldn't say wether non-D&D players are majority on this forum, but I definitely think we are a majority of the comic's readers.The Giant said "More than half of the readers of OOTS do not play D&D at all", and that was nine years ago.

[Peelee]

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that.

Using a 7th level spell slot to make Xykon burn an epic level spell slot sounds pretty dang efficient to me.

[Snails]

also of course the giant has stated before that he goes by the basic rules of the game unless they'd get in the way of the story. story is everything and it's paid off in such a great webcomic!

Rich has an excellent command of the rules, as he was a D&D game designer for a short stint. But he does not remember everything, and makes mistakes, occasionally.

The big reason he does not get into tracking minutia is he wants his story to be understandable by anyone with general knowledge of the genre (e.g. a once casual player of some other edition who never played 3e). So relying on details from 3e splatbooks is right out (with a few exceptions for narrow jokes or mining for ideas). He wants his story to be recognizable as a kind of literature, not a super long game session he made up.

[Edric O]

I realize I'm one strip late, but I just want to pat myself on the back for having guessed exactly what was going to happen back on strip #1221:


Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line.

Well, okay, maybe not quite exactly what was going to happen...


Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

...but really close!

[TheNecrocomicon]

I'm putting my quatloos on "no chance at all of it working," mainly for the reasons Elan gave a few strips ago -- too soon, too many players who haven't put their pieces on the board yet to have the big epic confrontation. Plus isn't it practically a bardic law that the heroes must make their final stand from a position of desperation and hopeless odds, not from a position of strength?

Both the big confrontations in the last book, by all rights, should have had the Order in a position of strength. There was the fight against Lurkon and a few lesser vampire spawn, and it got horribly bungled and briefly outright lost, because nobody in the party outside of Roy can really resist vampiric domination, and those around who could (i.e. Hilgya) must have rolled badly on their save.

Then there was the final fight at the Council chambers, where the Order had the backing of an entire clan of dwarven characters with class levels. They toasted a freakin' nightcrawler, of all things, without breaking much of a sweat, nor were the dominated guards much of an obstacle either. Durkon merely had to get inside with his magically empowered hammer to end the vampires' plan with a single stroke.


If anyone casts freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm), you'll know why.

What, like on a routine basis (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), maybe? And then two strips later, Xykon has new boots that do the same thing?

[Jasdoif]

What, like on a routine basis (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), maybe? And then two strips later, Xykon has new boots that do the same thing?Exactly! And then there's the ring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement). So many ways to say "the grappling rules aren't worth using" in-universe.

[bguy]

I assume you meant Durkon's Mass Death Ward. Problem is, Xykon can simply use Superb Dispelling and that will be that.

Yes, Xykon can cast Superb Dispelling but again a round he is doing that is a round he is not damaging the Order (and in fact is doing 10d6 damage to himself). So first round Xykon casts Energy Drain and sees it fizzle. Second round, he casts Superb Dispelling. He doesn't even begin to start doing damage to the Order until the third round.

Conversely Roy is pounding on Xykon each round. Roy is high enough level to get at least 3 attacks per round and per the Class and Level Geekery Thread he has a strength score of at least 29 and is using a +5 weapon which he wields two handed for which he has weapon specialization. That means Roy is doing damage of 2d6 +20 per hit + whatever damage the green fire effect does to undead. Assuming he is able to hit at least two out three attacks per round that means he should be able to do at least 50 points of damage to Xykon per round, so with two rounds of essentially free attacks, Roy by himself will have already done somewhere around 100 points of damage to Xykon. We don't know exactly how many HPs Xykon has, but it's doubtful its much over 200 and could be much less. (Liches don't get a CON bonus after all, so even if we assume Xykon is as high as 30th level, if he is only getting an average number of HPs per level (6.5) then he would only have 195 HPs). That means in just two rounds, Roy would already be halfway to destroying Xykon and would only need two more rounds to finish the job. And it's going to be very hard for Xykon to destroy Roy (with his high number of hit points, good saves, and extensive cleric support) in just two rounds.


And it won't protect them whatsoever from physical damage which Oona and Greyview dish out in bulk.

But if Redcloak goes down in the first round (which is very possible if Haley sneak attacks him and then V power word stuns him) then Oona and Greyview are going to be tied up fighting Haley, Elan, Belkar, and V by themselves. I really don't think Oona and Greyview win that fight. And that still leaves Durkon and Minrah to back up Roy against Xykon.


I think the X-factor here is the Monster in the Darkness. He knows they are friends of O-Chul, and O-Chul's friends are effectively his friends. Additionally, the Order have knowledge that could "upset the balance" between Redcloak and Xykon, namely Redcloak's true intentions. This falls back in line with the MitD since Xykon instilled a mental command to eat Redcloak should he ever betray him.

I would agree with that except that the MITD isn't with Xykon and Redcloak right now. Thus he's currently a non-factor in any hypothetical Order ambush of Team Evil.

[drazen]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

[Ionathus]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

It WOULD be dramatically appropriate for the final gate to have the strongest defenses! Unsure if it will actually be a combination of everything, but if anyone was to incorporate the philosophies of everybody on the team, it'd be the halfling who managed to broker their truce after the schism.

[homersolo]

I am making my prediction:

That which is being held inside by this "trap" is..... the MITD's species, and perhaps his family.

[Ionathus]

The Giant said "More than half of the readers of OOTS do not play D&D at all", and that was nine years ago.

Probably fair to note that since he wrote that, D&D has had an explosion in popularity thanks to 5E and lots of media/podcasts/streams around it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more of the readership has tried D&D out for the first time since then, and learned more about the rules -- I count myself among them, in fact.

That could all be a moot point of course, since most new players are likely playing 5e instead of 3.5 - but I'd be interested to see the data.

[TARINunit9]

The fact that O-Chul and Lien are not just still alive, but fed and unharmed in a very standard, made-by-humanoid-engineers style of dungeon throws up a lot of implications. It kind of completely changes their situation, and what we're supposed to infer about their invisible assailants

[WindStruck]

Yes, great plan, Roy. Leap out from the teleportion trap, and when you inevitably fail to kill Xykon and his team due to all the defenses and contingencies they have, you'll tip them off to the exact reason they haven't been able to find anything.

[Ironsmith]

The fact that O-Chul and Lien are not just still alive, but fed and unharmed in a very standard, made-by-humanoid-engineers style of dungeon throws up a lot of implications. It kind of completely changes their situation, and what we're supposed to infer about their invisible assailants

Not really. Redcloak owned and used a similar dungeon (acquired with Azure City, granted), and the way they're chained up implies torture (you ever hold your hands over your head for ten minutes? Imagine doing that for days on end). Not to mention the fumes(?) leaking in from off-panel; that particular shade of acrid green is usually reserved for toxins, both in this comic and otherwise. We can only assume they're fed because they haven't yet starved to death, and not directly harmed due to the lack of visible scarring, but that's about it. The implied conditions are hardly ideal.

[Fyraltari]

It's only been two days, even if they haven't been fed they wouldn't be dead. Hell, even if they were denied water they wouldn't be dead yet. They'd be in terrible shape, though. Then again, Roy was basically fine after being impaled by a dinosaur and O-Chul once swam in acid and still had enough oomph to run, so they might be fine even then.

[Edric O]

Yes, great plan, Roy. Leap out from the teleportion trap, and when you inevitably fail to kill Xykon and his team due to all the defenses and contingencies they have, you'll tip them off to the exact reason they haven't been able to find anything.
Well, what choice do they have at this point? The way I see it, the Order has 3 options:

1. Use the teleportation trap to ambush and attack Team Evil. Basically, Roy's plan.

2. Hide. They are in the perfect hiding place, and could presumably remain there indefinitely, until Team Evil stops looking for them.

3. Explore the dungeon they are in.

They've ruled out #3 because they don't want to accidentally weaken the defenses of the Gate. That leaves either Roy's plan or option #2. The problem with option #2 is that it means permanently giving up the element of surprise. Team Evil will be prepared for them tomorrow, or whenever they come out from their hiding place.

[Doug Lampert]

Minor point of order, I know he at least occasionally checks at least the first page of forum notes. There have been times people've pointed out some inconsistency that he's then corrected, but yeah few and far between and not to a significant degree :P

Link (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?485797-OOTS-1034-The-Discussion-Thread&p=20696365&highlight=Read+forum#post20696365)

Is the specific post about the giant reading the forum, he checks to make sure that the comic is being seen properly. The post also mentions that a particular point where Rich "addressed the forum" was simply an obvious point he needed to address.

[jacehan]

Well, what choice do they have at this point? The way I see it, the Order has 3 options:

1. Use the teleportation trap to ambush and attack Team Evil. Basically, Roy's plan.

2. Hide. They are in the perfect hiding place, and could presumably remain there indefinitely, until Team Evil stops looking for them.

3. Explore the dungeon they are in.

They've ruled out #3 because they don't want to accidentally weaken the defenses of the Gate. That leaves either Roy's plan or option #2. The problem with option #2 is that it means permanently giving up the element of surprise. Team Evil will be prepared for them tomorrow, or whenever they come out from their hiding place.

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

[Peelee]

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

Option 5: wait it out until Team Evil tackles doors again, go into one they picked, bypass trap, ambush them on way out when they're low on spells, slots, and HP. Biggest downside of this one is they have no way of knowing how many doors they'll try in a day, and too few means they've not been weakened enough. Plus, the small matter of the nonzero chance of finding the Gate in the meantime.

[Fyraltari]

There's a fourth option - head back outside the caves and ambush them out there, so they can get the surprise without revealing how the trap works.

This might bring the bugbears into the fight.

[Doug Lampert]

This might bring the bugbears into the fight.

Agreed:

Bugbears, MitD, other allies unknown to TOotS; and additionally, stepping outside the trap without knowing where Team Evil is risks stepping out just as Team Evil comes back from their first encounter with a comment about how "that monster would never have let the dwarf past, so we need to check the tracks more carefully outside... Oh! There he is! Appearing out of thin air right in front of us and giving us a surprise round! How nice!"

Really, you are IN a very good hunter's blind that you KNOW the target will pass in front of. This is a good situation, use it if possible.

[Mind, it won't work, it's too early in this book, but trying is still a good thing to do.]

[Goblin_Priest]

The Giant has, multiple times, stated that he does NOT read the comment threads and does NOT modify the comic based on what is in the comment threads.

I'm not sure I believe that, given how on the nose some of the in comic commentary is toward explaining things that often irrational viewers in the comment threads come up with that don't really need to be explained. But I give him the benefit of the doubt as he gives us wonderful comics.

He might get third-hand summaries, though.

Because, as you've said, it does often feel like he is directly reacting to questioning and speculation made on the forums.

[elros]

From a writing standpoint, I commend the Giant for finding a way to explain what is going on in the corridor, and then pivoting to the paladins in a way that makes sense and is entertaining. It is reminder how difficult it is to pace a story arc when each column has to be a freestanding comic, usually with a punchline. Well done!

[Angelalex242]

I do hope the Paladins get freed before the big battle.

Smite evil packs a whallop when done by a strong enough paladin.

Lord Soon just about won, ya know.

[bravelove]

Welp sucks to be the paladins

[danielxcutter]

Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)"

Starmetal is just Adamantine+@. The green fire is a nice bonus, but Roy's not actually bypassing Xykon's DR. He's just taking the 15 points out of his damage.


On the other hand the Order knows what kind of spells Xykon has and can pretty effectively defend itself against his two favored attack spells (Energy Drain and Meteor Swarm). Durkon's Mass Energy Drain will neutralize Energy Drain and wide casting of Protection from Energy (Fire) will largely negate Meteor Swarm. (Yes, the Order would still take bludgeoning damage from Xykon's meteors, but the bludgeoning damage (which is only going to be 2d6 X 4) is pretty minor damage for a 9th level spell.) And while Xykon can debuff the Order's protections the round he is doing that is a round where he is not directly attacking the Order which means they are essentially guaranteed at least 2 rounds of attacks on him before he even starts to do any real damage them (three if they get a surprise round.) Roy and Durkon can do a lot of damage to Xykon with two or three rounds of free attacks.

Xykon can cast Epic Mage Armor and has an item that provides a deflection bonus; his AC is unlikely to be that low. Roy's probably going to succeed at most two attacks per round without authorial fiat and Durkon might not manage that even then.


And while its true that Belkar, Haley, and V can't really do much damage to Xykon himself, they can certainly be effective against Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview. (Indeed with Power Word Stun, V has a real good shot at neutralizing Redcloak in the very first round.)

There's still the problem that Redcloak and Oona aren't exactly going to be faffing around, either.


With our outside-universe knowledge as readers, the Order's best strategy is probably to drag Redcloak and optionally also Oona through the booby trap and kill or at least incapacitate them while Xykon is cut off from them. Redcloak has already used a few high-level spell slots. That multi-dimensional stone probably also interferes with Word of Recall so he might not be able to retreat. This puts Team Evil's plan for the gate on hold indefinitely, because they need a high-level divine caster, and leaves the Order much better off and Team Evil much worse off in the next encounter.

Amazing. Absolutely everything you just said is wrong.

Er, well maybe not absolutely everything, but you get the idea.

There's two big flaws in this. One, there's no indication "multidimensional stone" interferes with teleportation whatsoever. Blocking Ghostform means it also interacts with the Ethereal Plane, but simply being "multidimensional" doesn't block teleportation; teleportation typically uses the Astral(or occasionally the Shadow) Plane so unless you flat-out cut off the area from other planes period then it's not blocking teleportation. Xykon can just use Greater Teleport to pop out, and if they don't instantly gank Redcloak he'll get away with Word of Recall.

Two, Redcloak dying is the about the third worst scenario possible - the top three are "Snarl breaks loose and destroys the multiverse", "Snarl breaks loose and the gods unravel the world, thus making the cycle continue for eternity". I know people who don't know what happened in Start of Darkness are more than happy to throw him under the bus, but "convincing Redcloak" is an entire quest not just an option. And if you do know what happened in SoD... well, you'd probably be less inclined to do so.


With only their in-universe knowledge, they'll probably focus on whichever of Team Evil looks the most damaged and try to finish them off. This is essentially a gamble on how Team Evil's dungeon delve goes. It's assuming Team Evil gets in serious fights to begin with. They just opened their second door with a big red X on it and presumably are finding it occupied by monsters. This should make them very suspicious about their search. They might fight one oddly large rat and regroup. That would be bad for the Order's plan.

So maybe they'll start off with the second thing, notice it's not going well after they're already in combat, and exploit the booby trap as an escape plan?


Yeah, I think that's going to be a problem.


Yes, Xykon can cast Superb Dispelling but again a round he is doing that is a round he is not damaging the Order (and in fact is doing 10d6 damage to himself). So first round Xykon casts Energy Drain and sees it fizzle. Second round, he casts Superb Dispelling. He doesn't even begin to start doing damage to the Order until the third round.

Xykon very much knows that the Order has clerics who can ward party members against fire and negative energy. I doubt he'll open with Superb Dispelling, but he's got other spells to use against the Order. Like Mass Hold Person or Cloudkill. He can also blast them with lightning. Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage is still going to incapacitate someone or flat-out take them out the fight without teleportation. And that's just off the top of my head.


Conversely Roy is pounding on Xykon each round. Roy is high enough level to get at least 3 attacks per round and per the Class and Level Geekery Thread he has a strength score of at least 29 and is using a +5 weapon which he wields two handed for which he has weapon specialization. That means Roy is doing damage of 2d6 +20 per hit + whatever damage the green fire effect does to undead.

Wrong; as I said earlier in this post starmetal doesn't actually bypass Xykon's DR. So you've got to take off 15 points off that by default, and that's assuming he hits.


Assuming he is able to hit at least two out three attacks per round that means he should be able to do at least 50 points of damage to Xykon per round, so with two rounds of essentially free attacks, Roy by himself will have already done somewhere around 100 points of damage to Xykon.

We don't know exactly how many HPs Xykon has, but it's doubtful its much over 200 and could be much less. (Liches don't get a CON bonus after all, so even if we assume Xykon is as high as 30th level, if he is only getting an average number of HPs per level (6.5) then he would only have 195 HPs). That means in just two rounds, Roy would already be halfway to destroying Xykon and would only need two more rounds to finish the job. And it's going to be very hard for Xykon to destroy Roy (with his high number of hit points, good saves, and extensive cleric support) in just two rounds.

He's... not.

I put some numbers into a Power Attack calculator. I assumed Roy has four iteratives per round, BAB +18, a Haste effect, has 29 Str, a +5 greatsword, a +3 to-hit and damage from Elan's bardic music, and Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. I am aware that Roy might have feats like Sense Weakness to somewhat bypass the DR and we don't know how much the green fire does, but I think that's not terribly unreasonable.[/quote]

If Xykon has 35 AC, which is probably much lower than the average for his CR, that's about 81 damage without the green fire. If he has 40 AC, that's about 53 points.

It's not accurate to say that Xykon would only have average hit points either; the forum did the math a while ago and it turns out V must have near max hit points for their HD to survive their fight against him when they were Soul Spliced. There's also feats like Improved and Epic Toughness, as well as Redcloak healing him, but I suppose it's reaching a bit at that point.

Durkon joining in would help, but his to-hit isn't really as good. He hasn't invested as much as Roy into melee and is lower level, so even with Divine Power he's not going to be doing as much damage.


But if Redcloak goes down in the first round (which is very possible if Haley sneak attacks him and then V power word stuns him) then Oona and Greyview are going to be tied up fighting Haley, Elan, Belkar, and V by themselves. I really don't think Oona and Greyview win that fight. And that still leaves Durkon and Minrah to back up Roy against Xykon.

They need Redcloak alive though. I think it's not improbable that they could take him down in the surprise round, yes, but I don't feel optimistic.

V and Elan could also provide magical support, I guess.

Also I'd have Minrah attack the goblins, because she's not high level enough to hit hard enough or last long enough against Xykon.

[quote]I would agree with that except that the MITD isn't with Xykon and Redcloak right now. Thus he's currently a non-factor in any hypothetical Order ambush of Team Evil.

Yeah, I think it's a bit early for the MITD's redemption arc to reach a climax here.


It WOULD be dramatically appropriate for the final gate to have the strongest defenses! Unsure if it will actually be a combination of everything, but if anyone was to incorporate the philosophies of everybody on the team, it'd be the halfling who managed to broker their truce after the schism.

I very much agree.

[Shining Wrath]

Is there a defined idea as to what the fumes/steam in the last panel is, does it look like anything from previous strips?

My vote is "Normal dungeon dampness". They don't look injured, which even a Paladin would be after a couple of days in a mist that damages.


Roy's sword is Starmetal, and Xykon doesn't seem to have damage reduction against it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) (p2). Plus there's that green glow that is "particularly harmful to the undead. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)"

I don't know if Roy's sword bypasses Xykon's DR or not. When they fought at Azure City Xykon seemed to feel the hits, and Roy's leveled up since then.

What I do know is that the entire point of Roy forming the Order of the Stick is killing Xykon, and he is optimized to do that. To Xykon, Roy's Some Guy Who Shows Up. To Roy, Xykon is his reason for living and an existential threat to the entire universe. You would think that in a fight to the death both sides would care equally - but I don't think that's always true even in real life, and in this story, Xykon has no idea what's headed his way. 3.5 calculations aside, as a matter of story it's going to be very disappointing if they throw down and Xykon wins, or gets away.

What's going to be interesting, though, is Durkon is going to save Redcloak's life at some point - so say my tea leaves. Durkon and Minrah know Redcloak is the key to saving the universe from the Snarl. In fact, the only thing that may convince Redcloak they told him the truth is Durkon saving him at some cost to himself.

[Algeh]

In the strip when Redcloak claimed the fake phylactery off of the dead elder craftsman (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) he hired to make it, he kept the fake in a fancy carrying case, and promptly dropped the real one into what I would figure is a Bag of Holding, which is probably still on his person for safekeeping (while Xykon snatched the carrying case with the fake phylactery).

I guess the question for me is, would there be any way to escape or burst out of the demiplane or extraplanar space that constitutes a Bag of Holding? Especially when one doesn't have limbs yet?


Redcloak's backup holy symbol is diamond-shaped. Redcloak's current holy symbol (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) is round. And I, for one, find that quite interesting.


Yeah, that was weird. I saw that the second we saw him in the Bugbear village, but I assumed it was a stylistic mistake. Maybe it’s the real phylactery? Why hasn’t Xykon noticed?


Xykon thinks he has the real one. As far as he's concerned, that's just a holy symbol Redcloak dredged up so the backup one stays a backup.

Maybe. I'm just theorizing here, after all.

He still had the diamond-shaped one at (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Girard's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) pyramid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html), so either it's an art error since then (maybe used a reference with the old phylactery when upgrading Redcloak to the new art style?) or Redcloak swapped it out after they teleported north, maybe at the same time as MITD got his new umbrella, since he had it in the first bugbear village strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He still had the diamond-shaped one at (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Girard's (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) pyramid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html), so either it's an art error since then (maybe used a reference with the old phylactery when upgrading Redcloak to the new art style?) or Redcloak swapped it out after they teleported north, maybe at the same time as MITD got his new umbrella, since he had it in the first bugbear village strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html).

Both him and Xykon have had plenty of downtime for crafting, after their spell slots were consumed but there were still hours left in the day, so he could have trivially told Xykon "I'm not feeling the square symbol, I'm going back to the round" if Xykon had bothered to ask, which he probably would not have anyway. As to whether that is the true phylactery or RC did craft a new holy symbol, I won't speculate.

Grey Wolf

[TARINunit9]

Not really. Redcloak owned and used a similar dungeon (acquired with Azure City, granted), and the way they're chained up implies torture (you ever hold your hands over your head for ten minutes? Imagine doing that for days on end). Not to mention the fumes(?) leaking in from off-panel; that particular shade of acrid green is usually reserved for toxins, both in this comic and otherwise. We can only assume they're fed because they haven't yet starved to death, and not directly harmed due to the lack of visible scarring, but that's about it. The implied conditions are hardly ideal.

I always read comic 1189 that we were dealing with beings beyond the need for anything so mundane as dungeons and torture. Incorporeal beings occupying the cracks between gods and devils

Part of it comes from the ambiguity of the line "Was getting worried that poison wasn't up to the task of cutting through your paladin mojo." I assumed the emphasis was on the word "poison", as if to imply these incorporeal beings don't normally use something so mundane as toxic darts either. But 1224 clarifies the emphasis was on the word "that"; these ordinary beings using greater invisibility have many poisons, and weren't sure which ones were best against paladins

[F.Harr]

Poor Lien. It's good that she has O-Chul around to effect a bit of self-rescue.

[Algeh]

Both him and Xykon have had plenty of downtime for crafting, after their spell slots were consumed but there were still hours left in the day, so he could have trivially told Xykon "I'm not feeling the square symbol, I'm going back to the round" if Xykon had bothered to ask, which he probably would not have anyway. As to whether that is the true phylactery or RC did craft a new holy symbol, I won't speculate.

Agreed, just because it's round doesn't mean it has to be the phylactery, although it's a somewhat odd design choice if not (in terms of comic art, not in terms of Redcloak's style choices in-comic). Presumably, the art-reason the backup symbol was a diamond in the first place was as a visual distinction of "not phylactery" since I would imagine that most replacement/backup holy symbols would be the same shape as the "main" one.

Since the MITD had an opportunity to get a new umbrella sometime after the pyramid and before we see them in the village, it does seem that Redcloak would have had plenty of time to similarly acquire a new holy symbol (or simply tell Xykon that he did) if he wanted to. It's on the SRD equipment list and not particularly expensive, so he presumably could have bought himself a new one from a local Dark-One-friendly artisan at the bugbear village pretty easily. It's not a magical item that requires any particular ritual to create. Seems like an easier thing to buy in the bugbear village than the umbrella, really, since they're followers of the same religion but don't have much call for umbrellas when there's snow on the ground. (I am not concerned about where they bought the umbrella. There are many answers to that question, few of them particularly worth showing on-screen, which is presumably why we didn't see it.)

(This brings up the vaguely related and unimportant question of where NotDurkon got his unholy symbol from, since each deity is supposed to have their own so he'd have needed one for Hel rather than Thor. That would actually be a somewhat tricky thing to find since Hel normally has no worshipers and he probably had to improvise something without being obvious.)

[Ruck]

I think we’re going to cut away to Lien and O-Chul, and miss the ambush preparations.

That way we don’t break Elan’s rule. We won’t know the details of the ambush plan, so it will still have the required dramatic tension.

I think that's probably right.

[Jaecp]

Am I the only one who is disappointed that when Hailey said she wasn't "one of a kind", Elan should have jumped and said "Yes you are"?

I dunno, i have an even more weird little nitpick in that the version of Elan I have in my head would have used a contraction in the last bubble

Man I can not wait to see more O'Chul :) Probably my favorite minor recurring heroic character

[Arkku]

Plus, the small matter of the nonzero chance of finding the Gate in the meantime.

I think the chance of Team Evil finding the gate without being tipped off about the teleport is exactly zero, since it is clearly not in any of the teleport destination dungeons that they keep exploring.

[Smoutwortel]

I think the order is taking a needless risk with disabling the trap in close to their pursuers and than forcing them to turn around.
They could turn it off if team evil is deep in the dungeon and build a trap around the exit.
This would allow them to run an ambush without risking the exposure of the true dungeon.
It would also allow for more kinds of passive traps.

Other advise I would have for them: learn from the black dragon and cast anti-magic field if you're dealing with an opponent whose primary weapon is magic.
They could even reduce the risk of a Monekain's disjunction by having somebody guard the caster with Durkon's lightning hammer(It's probably an artifact, since it's a gift of Thor and they've shown it to have multiple functions).
A silence spells could also help against superior magic users.

[Smoutwortel]

I think the order is taking a needless risk with disabling the trap in close to their pursuers and than forcing them to turn around.
They could turn it off if team evil is deep in the dungeon and build a trap around the exit.
This would allow them to run an ambush without risking the exposure of the true dungeon.
It would also allow for more kinds of passive traps.

Other advise I would have for them: learn from the black dragon and cast anti-magic field if you're dealing with an opponent whose primary weapon is magic.
They could even reduce the risk of a Monekain's disjunction by having somebody guard the caster with Durkon's lightning hammer(It's probably an artifact, since it's a gift of Thor and they've shown it to have multiple functions).
A silence spells could also help against superior magic users.

If they transport themselves to another dungeon they could also maybe win enough time for a long rest to be the better prepared.

[danielxcutter]

I think the order is taking a needless risk with disabling the trap in close to their pursuers and than forcing them to turn around.
They could turn it off if team evil is deep in the dungeon and build a trap around the exit.
This would allow them to run an ambush without risking the exposure of the true dungeon.
It would also allow for more kinds of passive traps.

Oh, I didn't know anyone in the order had levels in Trapsmith. Wait, no, they don't.


Other advise I would have for them: learn from the black dragon and cast anti-magic field if you're dealing with an opponent whose primary weapon is magic.
They could even reduce the risk of a Monekain's disjunction by having somebody guard the caster with Durkon's lightning hammer(It's probably an artifact, since it's a gift of Thor and they've shown it to have multiple functions).
A silence spells could also help against superior magic users.

All of those options have the distinct drawback of also killing their own magic. Which might very well just end up killing them. There's nothing from either of the just moving out of the range of either of those.

Also "the hammer must be an artifact" doesn't mean it has some arbitrary ability to aid with that, even if artifacts worked inside AMFs.


If they transport themselves to another dungeon they could also maybe win enough time for a long rest to be the better prepared.

The problem is that by the time they've rested so will Team Evil. And they can't teleport themselves to another dungeon, why would you think that?

I'm guessing you've only played 5e? 3.5e is a bit different. For starters, full casting is super OP.

[drazen]

Other advise I would have for them: learn from the black dragon and cast anti-magic field if you're dealing with an opponent whose primary weapon is magic..

Catch is, only person who can hit Xykon reliably is Roy, and part of that is his magic sword, which I'm guessing would also not be as effective in the anti-magic field. Probably no throw and return, for instance. Not sure if Durkon's hammer would have the same problem - I'm not an RPG'er (except for three specific turn-based video/online games, and two I have not played in months/years) so I don't know all the fiddly details.

[diplomancer]

Hey, I'm going to make my first prediction:

Fiends will intervene before the trap's sprung, taking Vaarsuvius out of the running, and so the Order will not trigger the ambush. They want the conflict to last as long as possible, after all.

[Goblin_Priest]

Nice strip. Ochul's expression is a great counter point to the optimism.


It's a surprising turn from his typical stoic attitude.

However, he might just still be drowsy from the poison.

[danielxcutter]

Catch is, only person who can hit Xykon reliably is Roy, and part of that is his magic sword, which I'm guessing would also not be as effective in the anti-magic field. Probably no throw and return, for instance. Not sure if Durkon's hammer would have the same problem - I'm not an RPG'er (except for three specific turn-based video/online games, and two I have not played in months/years) so I don't know all the fiddly details.

Their magic weapons would indeed be just masterworks in an AMF, but Xykon's protective spells also wouldn't work... so his AC would probably suck then. I dunno, I just doubt it'll work.

[KorvinStarmast]

(This brings up the vaguely related and unimportant question of ... Heh, you could introduce about 90% of the posts on this forum with that lead in. :smallbiggrin:

Man I can not wait to see more O'Chul :) Probably my favorite minor recurring heroic character Likewise. One of the best presentations of paladin ever. (Though Lien is no slouch).

It's a surprising turn from his typical stoic attitude.

However, he might just still be drowsy from the poison. I'll go with the latter. :smallcool:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(This brings up the vaguely related and unimportant question of where NotDurkon got his unholy symbol from, since each deity is supposed to have their own so he'd have needed one for Hel rather than Thor. That would actually be a somewhat tricky thing to find since Hel normally has no worshipers and he probably had to improvise something without being obvious.)

Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.

GW

[Ghosty]

Hey, I'm going to make my first prediction:

Fiends will intervene before the trap's sprung, taking Vaarsuvius out of the running, and so the Order will not trigger the ambush. They want the conflict to last as long as possible, after all.

That sounds quite plausible. Assuming the next immediate few strips deal with Lien and O-Chul, or maybe the MITD. Wonder what he's doing?

I don't think the Order beats Xykon w/o the MITD switching sides.

EDIT: Daniel, what do you think Xykon's AC is? I don't see it in the Class/Level Geekery thread, but 10 + 5 (Lich Natural Armor Bonus) +5 Ring of Protection + 20 (Epic Mage Armor), so 40, seems reasonable.

For comparison, the Nightcrawler is listed at 35, and Roy didn't seem to miss much when fighting it.

[One Skunk Todd]

I think the order is taking a needless risk with disabling the trap in close to their pursuers and than forcing them to turn around.
They could turn it off if team evil is deep in the dungeon and build a trap around the exit.
This would allow them to run an ambush without risking the exposure of the true dungeon.
It would also allow for more kinds of passive traps.

Other advise I would have for them: learn from the black dragon and cast anti-magic field if you're dealing with an opponent whose primary weapon is magic.
They could even reduce the risk of a Monekain's disjunction by having somebody guard the caster with Durkon's lightning hammer(It's probably an artifact, since it's a gift of Thor and they've shown it to have multiple functions).
A silence spells could also help against superior magic users.

If Xykon steps through first, they could turn it off then and fight only Xykon while RC and the others are trapped at the Dead end. Better still, turn it off while Oona and Greyview are stepping through and cut them in half.

ETA: Ignore the cutting in half part, I just realized it doesn't work that way.

[Metastachydium]

Probably my favorite minor recurring heroic character

That was oddly specific.


Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.


It's probably something like that judging by how the Stoners and those priests of Thor that got turned undead all kept their original symbols and functioned just fine with them.


Better still, turn it off while Oona and Greyview are stepping through and cut them in half.


How would that be a good thing?

[Ironsmith]

For comparison, the Nightcrawler is listed at 35, and Roy didn't seem to miss much when fighting it.

He actually missed half the time. We see Roy make four attacks on the Nightcrawler:

1160 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html) (Hit)
1164 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html) (Hit)
1168 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1168.html) (Miss)
1175 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1175.html) (Miss)

If we assume these four attacks represent typical rolls for Roy, he can hit a creature with an AC of 35 on an 11 or higher (50% of the time), implying a total attack bonus of +24 (give or take a few buffs and statistical anomalies).

If Xykon has the proposed AC of 40, Roy would need 16 or better to hit (25% of the time). That seems completely reasonable for the end-of-campaign boss.

[ebarde]

Ok, I think I'm just gonna stop trying to understand how this trap works lol I'm kinda more confused now

[Goblin_Priest]

Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.

GW

Holy symbols are like familiars, in many regards.

A few weeks ago, playing Pathfinder with my friends (with whom we've played it since it came out), we were fighting a cleric, among other enemies, and he tried to blind me and that really annoyed me, I needed to use a hero point to avoid it (as a mounted archer, blindness would be pretty crippling). I look at my abilities, and then remember that I can sunder stuff with the arrows that I shoot. So I tell the GM "Ha! Well, I sunder his holy symbol!" He looks at me with his "are you ****ting me" face, and goes like "in all the years of playing, when have holy symbols ever, *ever* been brought up?".

Never, lol, we had a good laugh. And it's not like we never play or fight clerics, either.

[Ghosty]

He actually missed half the time. We see Roy make four attacks on the Nightcrawler:

1160 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html) (Hit)
1164 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html) (Hit)
1168 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1168.html) (Miss)
1175 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1175.html) (Miss)

If we assume these four attacks represent typical rolls for Roy, he can hit a creature with an AC of 35 on an 11 or higher (50% of the time), implying a total attack bonus of +24 (give or take a few buffs and statistical anomalies).

If Xykon has the proposed AC of 40, Roy would need 16 or better to hit (25% of the time). That seems completely reasonable for the end-of-campaign boss.

We also see Elan make hits, which seems really unbelievable. Repeated hits. Using puns must have one gigantic lift to Elan's BAB. And Haley doesn't seem to have a problem hitting it.

I can't tell where Roy misses or if he just skimmed it. Some of the hits are unmistakable. Be that as it may, an extra 5 AC will make things tougher obviously, but I'm not seeing a situation where Roy and Durkon would be futilely whaling away and not seriously and quickly damaging Xykon.

Though V hitting Xykon with a Disintegrate is probably a lost cause.

[Metastachydium]

Though V hitting Xykon with a Disintegrate is probably a lost cause.

Well, given that they couldn't do it on steroids (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)…

[bguy]

Well, given that they couldn't do it on steroids (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)…

Any chance V has learned True Strike since then? A Quickened True Strike-Disintegrate combo would probably be effective at hitting Xykon.

[Doug Lampert]

Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.

GW

In my 4th ed campaign that was an explicit rule for all deities since the holy symbols could be powerful magic items and I wanted captured symbols to be useful.

I don't now remember if I got that from a rulebook or just made it up as a house-rule.

[Metastachydium]

Any chance V has learned True Strike since then? A Quickened True Strike-Disintegrate combo would probably be effective at hitting Xykon.

Hm. That might be viable, but if Big X.'s AC is indeed in the low 40s, it's quite certainly not an auto-hit option (and, in fact, depending on the other modifiers it can just be a waste of slots).

[bunsen_h]

Agreed, just because it's round doesn't mean it has to be the phylactery, although it's a somewhat odd design choice if not (in terms of comic art, not in terms of Redcloak's style choices in-comic). Presumably, the art-reason the backup symbol was a diamond in the first place was as a visual distinction of "not phylactery" since I would imagine that most replacement/backup holy symbols would be the same shape as the "main" one.

I think it highly unlikely that Redcloak would display Xykon's phylactery openly. Xykon isn't a total idiot, and the phylactery has some distinctive markings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html).

[Metastachydium]

(Technically, wearing a holy symbol which is superficially similar to the phylactery would be something Xykon should approve of, since their enemies do not know Redcloak doesn't have the phylactery anymore, and the round shape could help keep it that way.)

[Ironsmith]

We also see Elan make hits, which seems really unbelievable. Repeated hits. Using puns must have one gigantic lift to Elan's BAB. And Haley doesn't seem to have a problem hitting it.

I can't tell where Roy misses or if he just skimmed it. Some of the hits are unmistakable. Be that as it may, an extra 5 AC will make things tougher obviously, but I'm not seeing a situation where Roy and Durkon would be futilely whaling away and not seriously and quickly damaging Xykon.

Though V hitting Xykon with a Disintegrate is probably a lost cause.

Probably, but at that point author fiat seems a bigger factor than AC.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(This brings up the vaguely related and unimportant question of where NotDurkon got his unholy symbol from, since each deity is supposed to have their own so he'd have needed one for Hel rather than Thor. That would actually be a somewhat tricky thing to find since Hel normally has no worshipers and he probably had to improvise something without being obvious.)

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mage's Disjunction on Xykon would presumably help tune down his defenses.

[Smoutwortel]

Oh, I didn't know anyone in the order had levels in Trapsmith. Wait, no, they don't.



All of those options have the distinct drawback of also killing their own magic. Which might very well just end up killing them. There's nothing from either of the just moving out of the range of either of those.

Also "the hammer must be an artifact" doesn't mean it has some arbitrary ability to aid with that, even if artifacts worked inside AMFs.



The problem is that by the time they've rested so will Team Evil. And they can't teleport themselves to another dungeon, why would you think that?

I'm guessing you've only played 5e? 3.5e is a bit different. For starters, full casting is super OP.

I'm sorry for using the wrong term.
I said trap, but I meant more like ambush/trap fusion. Tricks like having V fly up with a bolder to drop when the enemy appears or having Harley sit at the top somewhere, so she can more easily choose who she hits.

You're right those options have the problem of killing their own magic too, but as black wing said "they have stronger magic than we do", but they do have better physique, so they should have an advantage in a fight where neither party has access to magic and one sided magic fighting tactics often have the drawback that they can be overcome it with a stronger will or caster level in 3.5e and here Xykon obviously has the superior casting level and will and redcloak has already has already shown in his fight with the high priest of Azure city that he has a strong will safe and he has shown to have a seriously high casting level(9th level spell slots).
You're right that they can't harm Xykon in an anti-magic field(also 5e fault) if what Belkar detroyed by bashing it against a rock for stopping to be his personal wand of fireballs wasn't a lich and liches don't get surpressed or even destroyed from being in an anti-magic field(undead held up by magic), but they can grapple and rob him of his spell components and if they don't do that they can push him out. Yet you're right that is not enough casting silence on Roy and Harley might still help though, because they will be the closest to the enemy casters, don't cast vocal magic, have access to telepathy and Xykon is still a better caster than the rest.
You're right artifacts don't work in an anti-magic field in 3.5e, my 5e msitake.
The idea is resting, while team evil searches for you hence <b>short</b> rest

[Smoutwortel]

If Xykon steps through first, they could turn it off then and fight only Xykon while RC and the others are trapped at the Dead end. Better still, turn it off while Oona and Greyview are stepping through and cut them in half.

ETA: Ignore the cutting in half part, I just realized it doesn't work that way.

Ooh splitting their party, while close to the wizard. That might indeed be worth the risk of exposing the real dungeon

[Snails]

Catch is, only person who can hit Xykon reliably is Roy, and part of that is his magic sword, which I'm guessing would also not be as effective in the anti-magic field. Probably no throw and return, for instance. Not sure if Durkon's hammer would have the same problem - I'm not an RPG'er (except for three specific turn-based video/online games, and two I have not played in months/years) so I don't know all the fiddly details.

In an AMF Xykon is likely to have AC 20 or less. Roy's non-magical To Hit Bonus is likely to be above +20.

The AMF is actually a good idea, not because it stops Xykon cold, but because it reduces his tactical options and forces him to burn precious epic spell slots in unimaginative ways. Goading a Supreme Dispelling is an Action Economy win, even if it means eating a Quickened nasty spell, too.

The downside is V would likely be killed as a result. But such would be a character arc that would make much sense for V.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Without magic Roy is basically never getting through Xykon's DR. No magic strength boost, no magic sword damage, no green fire especially damaging to the undead. Just standard greatsword damage with his natural STR bonus.

[hungrycrow]

Without magic Roy is basically never getting through Xykon's DR. No magic strength boost, no magic sword damage, no green fire especially damaging to the undead. Just standard greatsword damage with his natural STR bonus.

Don't really remember how this works, but lich DR is supernatural, so it might also get suppressed by an AMF?

Nevertheless, it's a bad plan if they can't stop Xykon from just walking away. This worked for the ABD because she was a dragon and could easily stop an unmagical V from moving.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mage's Disjunction is not centered on the self, though. And that would be a pretty high priority pick if your main bad guy(s) is (are) spellcaster(s).

[Gurgeh]

Hm. That might be viable, but if Big X.'s AC is indeed in the low 40s, it's quite certainly not an auto-hit option (and, in fact, depending on the other modifiers it can just be a waste of slots).
A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

[Peelee]

Hey, I'm going to make my first prediction:

Fiends will intervene before the trap's sprung, taking Vaarsuvius out of the running, and so the Order will not trigger the ambush. They want the conflict to last as long as possible, after all.

I'll take that bet.

[Jaecp]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

She seems to have dedicated her life to it so there is much honor there on its own.

[One Skunk Todd]

Ooh splitting their party, while close to the wizard. That might indeed be worth the risk of exposing the real dungeon

And hopefully somewhat drained too, if this monster tunnel has restocked or was never hit in the first place.

[One Skunk Todd]

And hopefully somewhat drained too, if this monster tunnel has restocked or was never hit in the first place.

And they'll have perfect situational awareness if they station somebody in the Dead End to watch down the monster tunnel until TE comes out. They'll know party order and have at least a quick take on health status.

And I can't help but notice Xykon led the way in, in 1039, and out in 1040.

And the OotS gets a hell of a surprise round(if that's a thing in 3.5.) Xykon walking along, TE trailing behind, the portal drops and suddenly 7 enemies within melee range for at least 3 rounds, and no support. I don't know if Haley can kill the trap altogether or only for another 20 secods.

[Ironsmith]

She seems to have dedicated her life to it so there is much honor there on its own.

And then there's the invisible dudes. If they're guardians of the gate, they might end up borrowing some of Soon's methods.

[Algeh]

Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.

GW






It's probably something like that judging by how the Stoners and those priests of Thor that got turned undead all kept their original symbols and functioned just fine with them.



That would make thematic sense and fit well with NotDurkon's prayer for new spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html).


In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

That spell isn't listed in the 2e PHB I have handy (maybe it's from a later supplement - I don't have most of the supplemental 2e books since I mostly borrowed them from friends and the library as needed at the time), but that book does mention in the equipment section that holy symbols are the kind of thing you have to get from a temple, they're specially prepared by the cleric's order, and that they probably won't give them out to just anyone who asks even though a price is listed in the equipment table. I don't have any 3rd edition books so I was just going by the list and brief description in the SRD, which doesn't mention any similar constraints, but it would make sense for something similar to be true.

[Lord Torath]

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.
That spell isn't listed in the 2e PHB I have handy (maybe it's from a later supplement - I don't have most of the supplemental 2e books since I mostly borrowed them from friends and the library as needed at the time), but that book does mention in the equipment section that holy symbols are the kind of thing you have to get from a temple, they're specially prepared by the cleric's order, and that they probably won't give them out to just anyone who asks even though a price is listed in the equipment table. I don't have any 3rd edition books so I was just going by the list and brief description in the SRD, which doesn't mention any similar constraints, but it would make sense for something similar to be true.It's a second-level spell, actually, and it appeared in The Tome of Magic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17391/Tome-of-Magic-2e). It had no material requirements, so it could be cast if you'd lost your holy symbol.

[Snails]

Don't really remember how this works, but lich DR is supernatural, so it might also get suppressed by an AMF?

Nevertheless, it's a bad plan if they can't stop Xykon from just walking away. This worked for the ABD because she was a dragon and could easily stop an unmagical V from moving.

You are correct about the DR being Supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)and nullified by the AMF.

If Roy is standing next to Xykon and he tries to leave, Roy can Trip him.

[Snails]

A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

V could miss with the Ray, but Xykon's Fort save is not very good.

<Sorcerer 20> + <Con mode> + <Epic Save bonus for 27th level> = 6 + 0 + 3 = +9

Of course, X could have a Ring of Resistance to improve that, but even a +5 ring brings him to Fort +14. V is likely to have a Disintegrate DC 23 or 24.

[Ghosty]

A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

I couldn't tell if the force armor from Epic Mage Armor applied to touch attacks or not. It explicitly says it protects against touch attacks made by incorporeal creatures like Shadows. I guess a Disintegrate ray is treated differently than those.

If so, that's great, and knocks X's AC against touch attacks down to something like 15, as the only thing to worry about would be the Ring of Protection. (Or whatever caused the 'deflect!' effect when Darth V tried to Disintegrate him). Much easier for V and their ~+8BAB to hit.

[ratfox]

I have to say, this ambush idea doesn't seem like the big climatic final battle. Too many loose ends, even for a really indulgent post-credit scene. I'm sure Elan would agree. :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

I couldn't tell if the force armor from Epic Mage Armor applied to touch attacks or not.Epic magic armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicMageArmor.htm), like its nonepic counterpart (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm), provides an armor bonus to AC; and armor bonuses don't apply to touch AC (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks).


It explicitly says it protects against touch attacks made by incorporeal creatures like Shadows.In what is easily the least intuitive wording choice in the core books, an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack.

Armor bonuses and shield bonuses both very specifically say they do not apply against touch attacks, except for force effects, which apply against incorporeal touch attacks. This implies that even force effects that grant an armor or shield bonus do not apply against regular touch attacks. Is that so? If so, why? If a mage armor spell can make it harder for a spectre to lay a hand on you, why wouldn’t it also make it harder for a hobgoblin to lay a hand on you?

A spectre doesn’t “lay a hand on you”—it slams you, and the blow goes right through your armor (and through your shield if you have one). An incorporeal touch attack is so named only to remind you that (most) armor and shields do not apply. A touch attack and an incorporeal touch attack are not the same thing. If they were, they wouldn’t have different names.

An armor or shield bonus from a force effect applies against an incorporeal touch attack because the attack can’t pass through the force armor or shield as it can through an object. An armor or shield bonus doesn’t stop a regular touch effect, because touching it is the same as touching you (just as it is for any other kind of shield or armor you personally use).Apparently the idea that "incorporeal" would be seen as a modifier on "touch attack" never came up during proofing or editing....

[Potatopeelerkin]

Disabling the trap seems like a bad idea to me. Team Evil hasn't found the trap so far and has no rogue on their team, so it'd probably hold them back for a lot longer if the Order doesn't reveal it- time they could use to gather intel or reinforcements. An army of spell-slinging dwarves would make a big difference. The hide-inside-the-trap ambush can be used later if necessary.

If all the tunnels have traps like this that lead to the gate, it seems like a confusing decision. Ideally you'd only put the trap in one gate, so potential intruders would have to both guess the right tunnel AND identify the trap to get to the gate.

[Mariele]

Wowee zowee, two strips so close together. I want to look at Team Evil since this is so tense, but it looks like we're going to be cutting to the paladins. Guess I'm just going to read the entire thread while I eagerly await the next page! I absolutely know we're not at the big fight scene for the end of this book, and that something is going to flub this all up, but I'm still excited to see how this all plays out. :)


Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.
Y'know, this hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense. I like this take!


I dunno, i have an even more weird little nitpick in that the version of Elan I have in my head would have used a contraction in the last bubble
Oh man, I cannot believe someone else had the exact same nitpick as me. It was such a small one I forgot about it until you mentioned it haha.


Now, what I'd find nice would be Xykon turning on Redcloak and the Order saving him from the Bony Bastard, which could serve as a good starting point for renewed discussions.
I don't know how this would come about exactly, but I like it!


That's a very interesting question/idea. I checked the SRD for an answer and came up mostly empty. I did find a useful bit of information, however:

That would mean all Redcloak needs to get an angry Xykon off his back is a cheap dagger. If the phylactery is in the bag, Xykon is in the phylactery and the bag ruptures, Xykon should get lost forever.
Boy, that's sure handy! I dunno if that's something Rich would adhere to, but it's a fun idea.

Wanted to add, we don't know if RC added all those protection spells to the phylactery, do we? We just saw him adding them to the fake one. It could be easier for him to destroy than we're thinking.


I realize I'm one strip late, but I just want to pat myself on the back for having guessed exactly what was going to happen back on strip #1221!
That was awfully good!


Oof. You really know how to hurt a guy .. :smalleek:
*Looks up from Accounting homework* :smallmad:


Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!
Hope you had a good birthday!

[bunsen_h]

I dunno, i have an even more weird little nitpick in that the version of Elan I have in my head would have used a contraction in the last bubble

I think that the intention was emphasis: "They are all noble and selfless like that."

[Dion]

I think that the intention was emphasis: "They are all noble and selfless like that."

I’m imagining at least one more trap exactly like the one the party just went through.

And I’m imagining Lien and O’Chul on the other side of that trap, perhaps 20 feet away, watching and listening to everything the party says, but unable to interact with them.

[hamishspence]

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.
It's a second-level spell, actually, and it appeared in The Tome of Magic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17391/Tome-of-Magic-2e). It had no material requirements, so it could be cast if you'd lost your holy symbol.

3.5e's nearest equivalent is the Summon Holy Symbol spell in Complete Champion. 0th level for clerics, 1st level for Paladins (since they don't get 0th level spells. Only lasts 1 round per caster level though.

[Peelee]

I think it highly unlikely that Redcloak would display Xykon's phylactery openly. Xykon isn't a total idiot, and the phylactery has some distinctive markings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html).

If only Redcloak had some means of negating those markings. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm):smalltongue: Illusion spells would also work, for what its worth. Or, it could be a tiny item with miniscule markings which necessitate that it be examined closely, which Xykon might well do with a fake one Redcloak gave him but likely will not do with one Redcloak is wearing around his neck.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure if the AMF would work though; Xykon could just use the Withdraw action -


Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

Moreover, an AMF only extends to like 10 feet out. So more than enough for Xykon to be able to exit the range.

Honestly, I have strong doubts that Xykon's going to be taken out like that. It just... I dunno, doesn't feel like Rich's style I guess?

Didn't know artifacts actually do work inside an AMF, though. Huh. So do epic spells if they make the caster level check, unfortunately, and Xykon likely has a much higher CL than V.

Maybe Durkon's going to jump Xykon with his hammer, I dunno. Even if his other items don't work. he might actually do more damage than Roy.

[ebarde]

But does he have any reason to use the actual symbol? Ig there's something to be said about hiding it in plain sight, and having it on hand if things get heated.

[locksmith of lo]

what bothers me so far is that they have not checked what is on the other side of the space that they are in. i am assuming that behind them is another trap portal, but where does that go? :smallconfused:

[danielxcutter]

what bothers me so far is that they have not checked what is on the other side of the space that they are in. i am assuming that behind them is another trap portal, but where does that go? :smallconfused:

What do you mean other side? If you mean looking through the scrying screen, he already saw that it leads to the dead end cut off from the fake tunnel.

[locksmith of lo]

What do you mean other side? If you mean looking through the scrying screen, he already saw that it leads to the dead end cut off from the fake tunnel.

i mean, are they just in a cul-de-sac? with only one portal trap? that is to say they walked through the only portal and they ended up in a just a room with nothing in it except the portal they walked through? :smallconfused:

[danielxcutter]

i mean, are they just in a cul-de-sac? with only one portal trap? that is to say they walked through the only portal and they ended up in a just a room with nothing in it except the portal they walked through? :smallconfused:

Oh you mean why aren't they going deeper in? Roy said so; he doesn't want to risk his team doing something that could mess up the Gate.

[locksmith of lo]

Oh you mean why aren't they going deeper in? Roy said so; he doesn't want to risk his team doing something that could mess up the Gate.

which probably means that they have no choice but explore deeper in... a sort of chekov's cave? :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

which probably means that they have no choice but explore deeper in... a sort of chekov's cave? :smallbiggrin:

They're not going to go explore deeper, at least for now.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'll be with the guy saying the IFCC are going to call in V again pretty soon.

Could reasonably avoid a battle that's too early to be had.

[Ghosty]

Epic magic armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/epicMageArmor.htm), like its nonepic counterpart (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm), provides an armor bonus to AC; and armor bonuses don't apply to touch AC (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks).

In what is easily the least intuitive wording choice in the core books, an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack.
Apparently the idea that "incorporeal" would be seen as a modifier on "touch attack" never came up during proofing or editing....

Thank you. Sincerely, Jasdoif: that was a well-written, concise explanation and I understand the distinction now.

I still don't understand why an incorporeal force shield---which is why the various species of Mage Armor are---would be irrelevant to figuring out if one were protected from Disintegrate. The Disintegrate ray isn't some sort of infinite-power X-ray laser. Eventually, it gets stopped by something. I would have guessed a force shield would help stop it or ameliorate it, before your tender flesh would. But it doesn't seem to make a difference whether you have such a shield or not. Add it to the Celestia sized pile of oddities in D&D rules, I guess.

Then I would think that the Quickened True Strike/Disintegrate combo mentioned upthread should, by raw, be pretty much an auto-hit for V, and that even without it, V should hit with it a decent chunk of the time. Assuming there isn't some other deflection AC boost or other relevant buff.

And X stands a good chance of blowing the Fortitude save, and thereby eating 34d6 if Blackwing gets a little closer. Maybe even 36d6. Ouch.

[danielxcutter]

Thank you. Sincerely, Jasdoif: that was a well-written, concise explanation and I understand the distinction now.

I still don't understand why an incorporeal force shield---which is why the various species of Mage Armor are---would be irrelevant to figuring out if one were protected from Disintegrate. The Disintegrate ray isn't some sort of infinite-power X-ray laser. Eventually, it gets stopped by something. I would have guessed a force shield would help stop it or ameliorate it, before your tender flesh would. But it doesn't seem to make a difference whether you have such a shield or not. Add it to the Celestia sized pile of oddities in D&D rules, I guess.

Then I would think that the Quickened True Strike/Disintegrate combo mentioned upthread should, by raw, be pretty much an auto-hit for V, and that even without it, V should hit with it a decent chunk of the time. Assuming there isn't some other deflection AC boost or other relevant buff.

And X stands a good chance of blowing the Fortitude save, and thereby eating 34d6 if Blackwing gets a little closer. Maybe even 36d6. Ouch.

I'm pretty sure that Rich has explained why he doesn't have characters use save-or-loses? It'd be rather anti-climatic, honestly.

Also, I just realized that Epic Mage Armor might not be canceled by an AMF. So he'd still have most of his AC.

[JNinja]

what bothers me so far is that they have not checked what is on the other side of the space that they are in. i am assuming that behind them is another trap portal, but where does that go? :smallconfused:

I agree with you in that the comic makes it clear why they don't continue in, but I as the reader am still very curious about what is there (and I bet we will see eventually).

[Ghosty]

I'm pretty sure that Rich has explained why he doesn't have characters use save-or-loses? It'd be rather anti-climatic, honestly.

Also, I just realized that Epic Mage Armor might not be canceled by an AMF. So he'd still have most of his AC.

But fine with having it done to them....it all turned out great, in the end.

(I'm still laughing from reading the Apocalypse Now reference in the prior strip's discussion thread, and now I keep thinking of lines from it.

The Mechane. *hit, I'm still only on the Mechane. Every time I think I'm gonna wake up back in the jungle."

Never get out of the boat, indeed...)

[bunsen_h]

If only Redcloak had some means of negating those markings. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm):smalltongue: Illusion spells would also work, for what its worth. Or, it could be a tiny item with miniscule markings which necessitate that it be examined closely, which Xykon might well do with a fake one Redcloak gave him but likely will not do with one Redcloak is wearing around his neck.

I'm not confident that even a mending spell would work through all of the protections on that thing. (Which presumably were added after it took the damage?) Especially since Mending is just a cantrip.

Would Mending be positive-energy based? "I just felt this weird... tingle. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced, except bad."

I definitely wouldn't trust that Xykon wouldn't notice an illusion, with a strong possibility of seeing through it, one way or another.

[One Skunk Todd]

I'm not confident that even a mending spell would work through all of the protections on that thing. (Which presumably were added after it took the damage?) Especially since Mending is just a cantrip.

Would Mending be positive-energy based? "I just felt this weird... tingle. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced, except bad."

I definitely wouldn't trust that Xykon wouldn't notice an illusion, with a strong possibility of seeing through it, one way or another.

RC might be able to explain away in anomalies in the appearance by saying "the elves and paladins had hold of it for a while, no telling what they did or tried to do."

[Fitzclowningham]

Wanted to add, we don't know if RC added all those protection spells to the phylactery, do we? We just saw him adding them to the fake one. It could be easier for him to destroy than we're thinking.

Or, after being lost in a sewer and then found again it still has all the protections it had on it before

[mashlagoo1982]

I think we know which paladin is which.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F166562 886188062814%2F&psig=AOvVaw11oC8ij6ajztlb7hTQ-CVl&ust=1612037182342000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIDthbv5we4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

[Saint-Just]

Hey, I'm going to make my first prediction:

Fiends will intervene before the trap's sprung, taking Vaarsuvius out of the running, and so the Order will not trigger the ambush. They want the conflict to last as long as possible, after all.

Want to bet five quatloos?


In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

It made it (Complete Champion), though it is a Summoning so it only lasts a few rounds (still enough for 99.9% of encounters). Don't know whether 2e was permanent.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It was, as it created a simple wooden icon.

[Peelee]

I'm not confident that even a mending spell would work through all of the protections on that thing. (Which presumably were added after it took the damage?) Especially since Mending is just a cantrip.

Would Mending be positive-energy based? "I just felt this weird... tingle. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced, except bad."

I definitely wouldn't trust that Xykon wouldn't notice an illusion, with a strong possibility of seeing through it, one way or another.

What would stop Mending from working, exactly?

[bunsen_h]

What would stop Mending from working, exactly?

It would depend on the nature of the protection spells. If it's "protection from damage", mending could work. If it's "protection from magic", it wouldn't. If it's "protection from positive energy" and Mending is based on positive energy, it might not.

[Peelee]

It would depend on the nature of the protection spells. If it's "protection from damage", mending could work. If it's "protection from magic", it wouldn't. If it's "protection from positive energy" and Mending is based on positive energy, it might not.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that Mending is based on positive energy, and I've never heard of a "protection fro magic" spell that wasn't some flavor of Anti-Magic, which would be counter-productive to put on the phylactery.

Also, the Mending thing started out tongue-in-cheek, but I think from now on in my games Mending also fixes cosmetic damage like small scratches or scruffs. It makes sense to me. Plus, that helps give a way for old items to still be in circulation easily. Very small detail but I like it.

[danielxcutter]

Positive energy doesn't really do anything to a phylactery, though.

The spells that I remember Redcloak casting on it were Hardening - self explanatory - and Superior Resistance, which increases the item's "saving throw" so it doesn't get easily Disintegrated or something. Probably spells like Nondetection as well.

[Mariele]

Or, after being lost in a sewer and then found again it still has all the protections it had on it before
Yeah, should have stated "readded" instead of "added", as that's what I meant. I thought I remembered reading that Redcloak has to rebuff the phylactery every so often because the spells don't last forever, but I could be misremembering. :smallredface:

[bunsen_h]

Yeah, should have stated "readded" instead of "added", as that's what I meant. I thought I remembered reading that Redcloak has to rebuff the phylactery every so often because the spells don't last forever, but I could be misremembering. :smallredface:

:xykon: "Yeah, it's gonna take (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) more than a few whacks with a metal bar to scuff the finish, pally. / There are so many abjuration spells protecting that thing, I've forgotten what half of them actually do."

This implies to me that the protections are permanent, or so long-lasting that they might as well be. Though it's possible that they're applied by Redcloak, and Xykon just hasn't been paying close attention to the details, I'd be inclined to think that the phylactery is important enough to Xykon that he'd be watching better.

EDIT:

Also, the Mending thing started out tongue-in-cheek, but I think from now on in my games Mending also fixes cosmetic damage like small scratches or scruffs. It makes sense to me. Plus, that helps give a way for old items to still be in circulation easily. Very small detail but I like it.

Makes sense to me, too.

[hamishspence]

IMO it falls within the description:



https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm

Mending repairs small breaks or tears in objects (but not warps, such as might be caused by a warp wood spell). It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists.

Ceramic or wooden objects with multiple breaks can be invisibly rejoined to be as strong as new. A hole in a leather sack or a wineskin is completely healed over by mending.

Scuffs and scratches could be reasonably characterised as "small breaks".

[Rogar Demonblud]

So I'd never again have my favorite sweater wear out? Sign me up!

[Lemarc]

I still don't understand why an incorporeal force shield---which is why the various species of Mage Armor are---would be irrelevant to figuring out if one were protected from Disintegrate. The Disintegrate ray isn't some sort of infinite-power X-ray laser. Eventually, it gets stopped by something. I would have guessed a force shield would help stop it or ameliorate it, before your tender flesh would. But it doesn't seem to make a difference whether you have such a shield or not. Add it to the Celestia sized pile of oddities in D&D rules, I guess.

Disintegrate annihilates an independent object of incorporeal force, including a wall of force, so it makes sense to me that a magical shield making up the same "object" as its caster wouldn't help. Comparing it to a laser that has to drill through the shield is probably a tad reductive. It's a magic spell to make something go away forever. It could have been equally accurately named "Transmute Matter to Dust".

[danielxcutter]

Disintegrate annihilates an independent object of incorporeal force, including a wall of force, so it makes sense to me that a magical shield making up the same "object" as its caster wouldn't help. Comparing it to a laser that has to drill through the shield is probably a tad reductive. It's a magic spell to make something go away forever. It could have been equally accurately named "Transmute Matter to Dust".

Yes, but popping a Forcecage doesn't zap the guy standing behind it either. That's why a lot of later spells like Cyclonic Blast do specify they can punch straight through barriers.

[Lemarc]

Yes, but popping a Forcecage doesn't zap the guy standing behind it either. That's why a lot of later spells like Cyclonic Blast do specify they can punch straight through barriers.

A forcecage is a separate object though, isn't it? While if I understand the rules correctly you're still just one object, no matter how many protective spells you put on yourself. The solid version of Forcecage is described as akin to Wall of Force, which expressly prevents spells from passing through, so you'd have to pop the barrier to allow you to cast spells on the person inside, but is there any reason you couldn't cast Disintegrate or Rock to Mud through, say, a pane of glass to affect a target behind it?

[danielxcutter]

A forcecage is a separate object though, isn't it? While if I understand the rules correctly you're still just one object, no matter how many protective spells you put on yourself. The solid version of Forcecage is described as akin to Wall of Force, which expressly prevents spells from passing through, so you'd have to pop the barrier to allow you to cast spells on the person inside, but is there any reason you couldn't cast Disintegrate or Rock to Mud through, say, a pane of glass to affect a target behind it?

Because that blocks line of effect, and aside from glass usually line of sight as well.

[bunsen_h]

Because that blocks line of effect, and aside from glass usually line of sight as well.

The spell description for Transmute Rock to Mud (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) doesn't mention line of sight, or that it would be blocked by an intervening transparent object/substance. Is that generally assumed or implied?

[danielxcutter]

The spell description for Transmute Rock to Mud (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) doesn't mention line of sight, or that it would be blocked by an intervening transparent object/substance. Is that generally assumed or implied?

Pretty sure LoE/LoS are default?

[Lemarc]

Because that blocks line of effect, and aside from glass usually line of sight as well.

Trying to understand the PHB on this subject is confusing me terribly. Disintegrate is a ray effect. Line of effect isn't mentioned by name under ray effects, but it's mentioned that intervening objects can provide cover. Meanwhile you "must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on", which is blocked by a solid barrier, and line of effect is defined as just like line of sight for ranged weapons except it's not blocked by visibility factors. Under the cover rules, if I don't have line of effect to my target they have total cover, which means I can't make an attack against them at all. Whereas Mage Armor is a field of force, not a solid object, so does not provide cover. This all seems to work out fine except that it leaves me in the position of not being able to fire a crossbow bolt or hurl a brick at a target through a glass window?

[danielxcutter]

Trying to understand the PHB on this subject is confusing me terribly. Disintegrate is a ray effect. Line of effect isn't mentioned by name under ray effects, but it's mentioned that intervening objects can provide cover. Meanwhile you "must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on", which is blocked by a solid barrier, and line of effect is defined as just like line of sight for ranged weapons except it's not blocked by visibility factors. Under the cover rules, if I don't have line of effect to my target they have total cover, which means I can't make an attack against them at all. Whereas Mage Armor is a field of force, not a solid object, so does not provide cover. This all seems to work out fine except that it leaves me in the position of not being able to fire a crossbow bolt or hurl a brick at a target through a glass window?

I'm pretty sure these are the things where it comes to "ask your DM".

[bunsen_h]

I'm pretty sure these are the things where it comes to "ask your DM".

It seems to me that Disintegrate would act on the first object that it strikes, which would include things like force walls and glass but not air. Rock to Mud isn't so obvious. For example, if one wanted to use it under water, would one have to be touching the stone in question, so the spell wasn't expended on the water? Can Disintegrate be used under water?

EDIT:

So I'd never again have my favorite sweater wear out? Sign me up!

It would save me enormous time and stress to avoid having to shop for clothing, then having to modify said clothing to fit me. I'd be thrilled.

[Ghosty]

Trying to understand the PHB on this subject is confusing me terribly. Disintegrate is a ray effect. Line of effect isn't mentioned by name under ray effects, but it's mentioned that intervening objects can provide cover. Meanwhile you "must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on", which is blocked by a solid barrier, and line of effect is defined as just like line of sight for ranged weapons except it's not blocked by visibility factors. Under the cover rules, if I don't have line of effect to my target they have total cover, which means I can't make an attack against them at all. Whereas Mage Armor is a field of force, not a solid object, so does not provide cover. This all seems to work out fine except that it leaves me in the position of not being able to fire a crossbow bolt or hurl a brick at a target through a glass window?

It sounds to me---and it's very ironic that a bunch of grognards would make this mistake---like the PHB writers confused the concepts of "cover" and "concealment." Despite actually having separate entries for both in their rules.

I'd think your plate glass window would provide limited, destructible cover for that first bolt---especially if the angle of impact isn't close to perpendicular---and should be reflected in a temporary AC boost for whoever was sitting behind it. It's not concealment though. (Absent the Sun reflecting off it or the equivalent.)

Forcecage is a great example. Why shouldn't a Disintegrate ray keep on truckin through a Forcecage to zap the inhabitant within (or at least roll to see if the ray hits), if that's pretty much what it does to Epic Mage Armor? They're both using walls of force to protect or confine things. Why is it that one set of force walls gets taken down by that ray, but doesn't damage whatever's inside; but another set of force walls ignores the passage of the ray, and isn't harmed, yet allows whatever is on the other side of it to take the full brunt of the ray?

Add it to the Celestia-sized mountain of rules quirks we know and love about this game.

[Lemarc]

It sounds to me---and it's very ironic that a bunch of grognards would make this mistake---like the PHB writers confused the concepts of "cover" and "concealment." Despite actually having separate entries for both in their rules.

I'd think your plate glass window would provide limited, destructible cover for that first bolt---especially if the angle of impact isn't close to perpendicular---and should be reflected in a temporary AC boost for whoever was sitting behind it. It's not concealment though. (Absent the Sun reflecting off it or the equivalent.)

Forcecage is a great example. Why shouldn't a Disintegrate ray keep on truckin through a Forcecage to zap the inhabitant within (or at least roll to see if the ray hits), if that's pretty much what it does to Epic Mage Armor? They're both using walls of force to protect or confine things. Why is it that one set of force walls gets taken down by that ray, but doesn't damage whatever's inside; but another set of force walls ignores the passage of the ray, and isn't harmed, yet allows whatever is on the other side of it to take the full brunt of the ray?

Add it to the Celestia-sized mountain of rules quirks we know and love about this game.

Wall of Force, and hence Forcecage, at least are explicitly called as blocking spells from passing through as part of their effect. I'd have taken that as the exception showing the general rule - they are specifically magic-blocking objects, forcefields not noted as such aren't - except for the line of effect stuff making that redundant by saying any solid object will block any spell. So apparently the difference between Epic Mage Armor and Forcecage, in this case, is much like how wearing clothes won't help against Disintegrate, but hiding behind a curtain will provide complete protection.

[Ironsmith]

Forcecage is a great example. Why shouldn't a Disintegrate ray keep on truckin through a Forcecage to zap the inhabitant within (or at least roll to see if the ray hits), if that's pretty much what it does to Epic Mage Armor? They're both using walls of force to protect or confine things. Why is it that one set of force walls gets taken down by that ray, but doesn't damage whatever's inside; but another set of force walls ignores the passage of the ray, and isn't harmed, yet allows whatever is on the other side of it to take the full brunt of the ray?

I see it as a magical equivalent to being in a Faraday cage versus a suit of armor. If someone comes at you with a cattle prod, the former is much safer for you than the latter.

I should elaborate. The spell description states that, when used on a nonliving target, it can only destroy a 10-foot cube of material. The clear implication of this is that there's an upper limit to how much it can destroy regardless. In the case of a forcecage, the necessary volume is supplied by the cage itself, leaving the inhabitant (who isn't touching the cage) unharmed. In the case of mage armor, after it's chewed through it, there's still volume left, and since the person "wearing" the armor is right there and the armor is tailored to their dimensions, they, too, get dusted.

[Ghosty]

I see it as a magical equivalent to being in a Faraday cage versus a suit of armor. If someone comes at you with a cattle prod, the former is much safer for you than the latter.

I should elaborate. The spell description states that, when used on a nonliving target, it can only destroy a 10-foot cube of material. The clear implication of this is that there's an upper limit to how much it can destroy regardless. In the case of a forcecage, the necessary volume is supplied by the cage itself, leaving the inhabitant (who isn't touching the cage) unharmed. In the case of mage armor, after it's chewed through it, there's still volume left, and since the person "wearing" the armor is right there and the armor is tailored to their dimensions, they, too, get dusted.

That's a great explanation. I can totally buy a, 'this amount of matter or force walls, and no more,' explanation for its effects. Explains it's ability to zip through air and it's great range, while explaining why it doesn't chew through that much material, considering. (I'd expect it to not work well or very far at all, underwater then.)

[danielxcutter]

There's still the issue that if you get zapped by a Disintegrate and survive - which is entirely possible - your Mage Armor spells and the like aren't dispelled.

Considering you can still make touch attacks and such, maybe those spells just don't cover the entirety of your body or something?

[Ironsmith]

There's still the issue that if you get zapped by a Disintegrate and survive - which is entirely possible - your Mage Armor spells and the like aren't dispelled.

Considering you can still make touch attacks and such, maybe those spells just don't cover the entirety of your body or something?

The same holds true for mundane armor, though; a Fighter in full plate tanking a Disintegration isn't suddenly rendered stark naked. If a Mage Armor spell basically provides armor made from "force", of course they'd have similar properties.

[danielxcutter]

The same holds true for mundane armor, though; a Fighter in full plate tanking a Disintegration isn't suddenly rendered stark naked. If a Mage Armor spell basically provides armor made from "force", of course they'd have similar properties.

Well that makes sense, but that circumstance in general is kinda weird. Guess it'd be hard to make rules for that or keep track if there were, though.

[Yirggzmb]

The same holds true for mundane armor, though; a Fighter in full plate tanking a Disintegration isn't suddenly rendered stark naked. If a Mage Armor spell basically provides armor made from "force", of course they'd have similar properties.

That would actually be really funny we one doing a more humor themed campaign...

[skim172]

Magic's ability to recognize and discern a living being and its accoutrements as a single distinct entity separate from the environment around it is actually quite remarkable.

No real world weapons do this. A bullet doesn't "know" what a person is - it plows through air, fabric, flesh, dirt, whatever. A heat-seeking missile only sees a heat source - it doesn't recognize that heat source as a person. A bomb will pulverize everything in a certain radius - its effect area is not defined by the boundaries of a living body.

Yet, a Disintegrate ray hits a person and instantly dusts that person's armor, clothes, skin, muscles, bones, internal organs, blood, gut flora, everything - yet it doesn't touch the air molecules around them, or the ground they're standing on. How does it know? V can use the spell on a dragon the size of an apartment block, and the entirety of its massive body is affected. But if it used on a chipmunk, then only that fuzzy little buddy would die.

How can this be? From a physical perspective, the molecules of your body aren't broadly different from the molecules of the dirt your feet are in contact with. If it worked by dissolving everything that is in contact with whatever it hits - then a single use of Disintegrate should cause a runaway chain reaction, dissolving your body, then the ground under you, then the entire planet and its atmosphere.

From a biological perspective, there is definitely a difference between living cells and non-living matter - but then, why would it affect the clothes you're wearing? And why would it work against golems or undead or other animated entities of non-living matter?

Maybe we could come up with a complex scientific explanation. But I think the simplest answer is that the targeting of a Disintegrate spell is guided by a sentient mind. A consciousness looks upon a scene and identifies what is and what is not "the target". That cognitive distinction marks out the limits of the Disintegrate's area of effect.

Perhaps it's an active thought process of the spellcaster as they cast - they feed the spell the targeting details of what it should destroy. Or perhaps it draws on the caster's subconscious recognition of an object as distinct from its environment.

This creates a frightening possibility: That every caster with a Disintegrate spell in their spellbook could potentially destroy everything that exists on the planet, up to the very boundaries of space, with a simple miscalculation - either conscious or subconscious - of their targeting vectors.

Or an alternative possibility: Every Disintegrate spell is technically a living entity with a sentient mind. It has sensory perception and the cognition to be able to identify what is and what is not an object. It uses this to decide the limits of its intended target, carries out its deed, and then dies. Whenever V casts Disintegrate, V is creating a new life, solely so that it may then destroy itself as V's weapon.

V's a monster.



(BTW - I highly recommend "The Midas Flesh", a short graphic novel by Ryan North, from which I basically ripped most of my thinking process. It's a fun, smart, well thought-out, excellently told sci-fi story about magic. And it also has dinosaurs and spaceships.

The writing is much more coherent, cohesive, and comprehensive than that babble I just posted.)

[Ironsmith]

Magic's ability to recognize and discern a living being and its accoutrements as a single distinct entity separate from the environment around it is actually quite remarkable.

No real world weapons do this. A bullet doesn't "know" what a person is - it plows through air, fabric, flesh, dirt, whatever. A heat-seeking missile only sees a heat source - it doesn't recognize that heat source as a person. A bomb will pulverize everything in a certain radius - its effect area is not defined by the boundaries of a living body.

Yet, a Disintegrate ray hits a person and instantly dusts that person's armor, clothes, skin, muscles, bones, internal organs, blood, gut flora, everything - yet it doesn't touch the air molecules around them, or the ground they're standing on. How does it know? V can use the spell on a dragon the size of an apartment block, and the entirety of its massive body is affected. But if it used on a chipmunk, then only that fuzzy little buddy would die.

How can this be? From a physical perspective, the molecules of your body aren't broadly different from the molecules of the dirt your feet are in contact with. If it worked by dissolving everything that is in contact with whatever it hits - then a single use of Disintegrate should cause a runaway chain reaction, dissolving your body, then the ground under you, then the entire planet and its atmosphere.

From a biological perspective, there is definitely a difference between living cells and non-living matter - but then, why would it affect the clothes you're wearing? And why would it work against golems or undead or other animated entities of non-living matter?

Maybe we could come up with a complex scientific explanation. But I think the simplest answer is that the targeting of a Disintegrate spell is guided by a sentient mind. A consciousness looks upon a scene and identifies what is and what is not "the target". That cognitive distinction marks out the limits of the Disintegrate's area of effect.

Perhaps it's an active thought process of the spellcaster as they cast - they feed the spell the targeting details of what it should destroy. Or perhaps it draws on the caster's subconscious recognition of an object as distinct from its environment.

This creates a frightening possibility: That every caster with a Disintegrate spell in their spellbook could potentially destroy everything that exists on the planet, up to the very boundaries of space, with a simple miscalculation - either conscious or subconscious - of their targeting vectors.

Or an alternative possibility: Every Disintegrate spell is technically a living entity with a sentient mind. It has sensory perception and the cognition to be able to identify what is and what is not an object. It uses this to decide the limits of its intended target, carries out its deed, and then dies. Whenever V casts Disintegrate, V is creating a new life, solely so that it may then destroy itself as V's weapon.

V's a monster.



(BTW - I highly recommend "The Midas Flesh", a short graphic novel by Ryan North, from which I basically ripped most of my thinking process. It's a fun, smart, well thought-out, excellently told sci-fi story about magic. And it also has dinosaurs and spaceships.

The writing is much more coherent, cohesive, and comprehensive than that babble I just posted.)

I see three fatal flaws with this reasoning:

1) Disintegrate would not need to create a sentient entity to accomplish its effect. Even if we grant that it somehow has sensory perception (to set its own boundaries), there are many examples of non-sentient lifeforms that do something similar, some of which are living in or under your house right now (i.e. bedbugs, which can seek out living creatures to suckle from, but are clearly nowhere near sentience). Additionally, given that Disintegrate is only able to take out a 10-foot cube of unliving matter, there are definitely upper limits to how much damage it could do if its caster makes a miscalculation.

2) Dungeons and Dragons uses several ways of distinguishing living entities from non-living matter, which have no real-world counterpart. For instance, the usage of positive and negative energy (as the terms are understood in D&D) does not correlate with any real-world concept (negative energy especially, as it requires the usage of undead creatures to be explained properly). Not to mention that it regularly makes concessions to gameplay that don't work from a "real" perspective. People don't have hit points in real life; if you club a guy over the head with a steel cudgel, it won't matter if he's a seasoned veteran or a simple farmer, his grey matter is going all over the place regardless.

3) Disintegrate is not the only spell which makes distinctions between living creatures and unliving matter. Cure Light Wounds has a regenerative effect that only works on living creatures; how? Does it rebuild the creature itself? If so, how does it know what to make? Does it speed up the natural healing process? If so, how does it know what processes to accelerate? Surely this means every cleric going to heal someone creates a sentient entity for the sole purpose of fixing a paper cut. The inevitable conclusion to draw along those lines is that most forms of magic are Evil by default, for creating a life-form which extinguishes itself for a (usually petty) purpose of the caster's design. A Good wizard would be an oxymoron... and yet is commonplace in Dungeons and Dragons, implying this line of reasoning to be against designer intent.

[danielxcutter]

There's also the fact that it's possible to make homing missiles without making them sentient either, so...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not to mention that it regularly makes concessions to gameplay that don't work from a "real" perspective. People don't have hit points in real life; if you club a guy over the head with a steel cudgel, it won't matter if he's a seasoned veteran or a simple farmer, his grey matter is going all over the place regardless.

This has nothing to do with the disintegrate discussion, but it irks me as an example, because I see it so often. HP is not a raw measure of "health", it is an abstraction of the ability to operate in combat. If you hit a peasant's head with a cudgel, he goes down. But the same exact blow to a seasoned warrior will only partially connect: they will know how to duck to lessen the impact, they will have a helmet to help, they will have partially deflected it and weaved so it is not a straight hit. The result is that they can take multiple more such blows before exhaustion causes them to falter and finally collapse. Levelling up doesn't suddenly make you healthier, it just indicates you are better at knowing how to ameliorate hits.

Grey Wolf

[greenfunkman]

And they'll have perfect situational awareness if they station somebody in the Dead End to watch down the monster tunnel until TE comes out. They'll know party order and have at least a quick take on health status.

And I can't help but notice Xykon led the way in, in 1039, and out in 1040.

And the OotS gets a hell of a surprise round(if that's a thing in 3.5.) Xykon walking along, TE trailing behind, the portal drops and suddenly 7 enemies within melee range for at least 3 rounds, and no support. I don't know if Haley can kill the trap altogether or only for another 20 secods.

Let's say they disabled the trap just after Xykon went through, thereby stranding the other three with the party. Would Xykon be able to rescue them?

Downsides, did that just give Xykon a straight shot into the secret area?

[danielxcutter]

This has nothing to do with the disintegrate discussion, but it irks me as an example, because I see it so often. HP is not a raw measure of "health", it is an abstraction of the ability to operate in combat. If you hit a peasant's head with a cudgel, he goes down. But the same exact blow to a seasoned warrior will only partially connect: they will know how to duck to lessen the impact, they will have a helmet to help, they will have partially deflected it and weaved so it is not a straight hit. The result is that they can take multiple more such blows before exhaustion causes them to falter and finally collapse. Levelling up doesn't suddenly make you healthier, it just indicates you are better at knowing how to ameliorate hits.

Grey Wolf

That partly makes sense, but it's entirely possible to sneak up on such a warrior and then smash their head in.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That partly makes sense, but it's entirely possible to sneak up on such a warrior and then smash their head in.

Again, no it is not. The mechanics say that they do take extra damage to a sneak attack, but not that a sneak attack means that the cudgel literally smashed their head in. Just that it landed. As an abstraction and RPG, you can play it however you want, but my usual go-to is that they noticed the sneak attack too late to stop it, but not late enough to let it go through all the way.

Or in RL: a perfectly healthy regular person cannot take a single punch from a professional boxer. But another boxer takes dozens of punches in combat, all of which land. How is that possible? Well, duh, they know how to block punches, and are wearing the right equipment, and are used to it, and so on and so forth, which in D&D means they have more HP, so that the punch can always do the same amount of damage, and have different results depending on the individual. Which makes the math a lot easier than if every punch's damage had to be adjusted for circumstances like the ones above. Like I said, an abstraction.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

This has nothing to do with the disintegrate discussion, but it irks me as an example, because I see it so often. HP is not a raw measure of "health", it is an abstraction of the ability to operate in combat. If you hit a peasant's head with a cudgel, he goes down. But the same exact blow to a seasoned warrior will only partially connect: they will know how to duck to lessen the impact, they will have a helmet to help, they will have partially deflected it and weaved so it is not a straight hit. The result is that they can take multiple more such blows before exhaustion causes them to falter and finally collapse. Levelling up doesn't suddenly make you healthier, it just indicates you are better at knowing how to ameliorate hits.

Grey Wolf

Be that as it may, no amount of training will allow you to run and fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) mere moments after being skewered (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Be that as it may, no amount of training will allow you to run and fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) mere moments after being skewered (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html).

Which is why OotS is a parody of D&D, and not a D&D game. The rules does not say "if the attack by a horned creature hits for max damage, the horn goes entirely through your torso and out the other side". It says "it does max damage". You can then compare to the total HP pool available to the character, and decide from that what kind of hit it was. And if there is a substantial amount of HP left, then the blow must not have been that bad, because the character is good at fighting. And thus, yes, they can still keep running around, because they have plenty of stamina left.

GW

[Metastachydium]

This has nothing to do with the disintegrate discussion, but it irks me as an example, because I see it so often. HP is not a raw measure of "health", it is an abstraction of the ability to operate in combat. If you hit a peasant's head with a cudgel, he goes down. But the same exact blow to a seasoned warrior will only partially connect: they will know how to duck to lessen the impact, they will have a helmet to help, they will have partially deflected it and weaved so it is not a straight hit. The result is that they can take multiple more such blows before exhaustion causes them to falter and finally collapse. Levelling up doesn't suddenly make you healthier, it just indicates you are better at knowing how to ameliorate hits.

Grey Wolf

I can't shake the feeling that a confusion is made here between hp and AC. At any rate, the helmet has nothing to do with being an experienced warrior. It's an item, which – mechanically – provides an armor bonus. Meanwhile, the ability to dodge an attack is a function of DEX rather than experience, and DEX bonus also doesn't have anything to do with hit points. Heck, someone with a low DEX score has no business dodging blows expertly or otherwise.
Additionally, there's the thing that the larger the creature is, the more HD and the more hit points it tends to have, and I don't see how or why a camel should be more seasoned a warrior than a wolf or a hawk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can't shake the feeling that a confusion is made here between hp and AC. At any rate, the helmet has nothing to do with being an experienced warrior. It's an item, which – mechanically – provides an armor bonus.
No it does not. There is no AC-granting helmets in D&D.


Meanwhile, the ability to dodge an attack is a function of DEX rather than experience, and DEX bonus also doesn't have anything to do with hit points. Heck, someone with a low DEX score has no business dodging blows expertly or otherwise.
Irrelevant. Dex bonus might give you the chance to avoid the blow entirely, but the premise here is that the blow has landed, since we are discussing HP. How you RP it is up to you, thus the abstraction part. But even a low-DEX character can weave. Low DEX does not mean their body is made of immovable stone. Just that they aren't dexterous enough to get completely out of the way.


Additionally, there's the thing that the larger the creature is, the more HD and the more hit points it tends to have, and I don't see how or why a camel should be more seasoned a warrior than a wolf or a hawk.
Again, irrelevant since we are comparing human beings. It is also trivially obvious that body mass plays a fundamental part in one's ability to survive blows - another difference between a boxer and an average human.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

Magic's ability to recognize and discern a living being and its accoutrements as a single distinct entity separate from the environment around it is actually quite remarkable.

No real world weapons do this. Actually, I am pretty sure that there are some guided munitions that can, though the last one I remember seeing in development was over a decade ago, so I'm a bit out of date. :smallwink: ... but they are way more expensive than a bullet or a bomb.
A bullet doesn't "know" what a person is - it plows through air, fabric, flesh, dirt, whatever. A heat-seeking missile only sees a heat source - it doesn't recognize that heat source as a person. A bomb will pulverize everything in a certain radius - its effect area is not defined by the boundaries of a living body.

(BTW - I highly recommend "The Midas Flesh", a short graphic novel by Ryan North, from which I basically ripped most of my thinking process. It's a fun, smart, well thought-out, excellently told sci-fi story about magic. And it also has dinosaurs and spaceships. The writing is much more coherent, cohesive, and comprehensive than that babble I just posted.) Thanks for the tip, sounds like a good read.

And: echoing what Grey Wolf said regarding HP, training, and how a professional soldier or professional boxer is better at dealing with damage than your average commoner/person.

When I was a kid, Muhammad Ali (one of the best heavyweight fighters ever, if not the best) perfected a technique called "rope a dope" that is a fine example of what Grey Wolf is tallking about. It's how he beat George Foreman in one of the great heavyweight matches ever. I guess he had the "tough" feat, if we apply a D&D 5e mechanic to that ... :smallcool:
As it was explained to us, as kids, (by our Physical Education teacher) strenghthening the abdominals is one of the things that all boxers do ... so do twenty more situps, kids!

[Metastachydium]

No it does not. There is no AC-granting helmets in D&D.

„Breastplate It comes with a helmet and greaves. (…) Chain Shirt A chain shirt comes with a steel cap. (…) Full Plate The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)” Helmets exists and they are part of what grants that armor bonus, sorry.
(Also, how more hp would give you a helmet is beyond me.)



Irrelevant. Dex bonus might give you the chance to avoid the blow entirely, but the premise here is that the blow has landed, since we are discussing HP. How you RP it is up to you, thus the abstraction part.

There are specific mechanisms for reducing damage by „moving with the blow” &c., such as Reflex saves and Defensive Roll (which uses Reflex saves). All are DEX- rather than hp-based.



Again, irrelevant since we are comparing human beings. It is also trivially obvious that body mass plays a fundamental part in one's ability to survive blows - another difference between a boxer and a regular human.

Grey Wolf

No, we are talking about hit points and what they represent, and if they represent „how seasoned a warrior” one is, the MM is full of oddities.


♣

Also, Disintegrate is a ranged touch attack. The way I understand them, once a touch attack hits, it touches the subject. From theat point on, the target may wear as many helmets, swirl around as much as the target wants and may have all the experience in the world, because they got touched and the effect, well, takes effect. If hp worked like you claim it works, more hp wouldn't help against Disintegrate (or for that matter, say, electricity-based non-touch effects).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

„Breastplate It comes with a helmet and greaves. (…) Chain Shirt A chain shirt comes with a steel cap. (…) Full Plate The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)” Helmets exists and they are part of what grants that armor bonus, sorry.
None of which a peasant wears. Nor is it a requirement to wear armour to have a helmet. You can RP that your wizard has a metal cap, for all the rules care.


(Also, how more hp would give you a helmet is beyond me.)
Like I already said, by knowing how to best use it to ameliorate the blow, because they know what they are doing better than a regular person with the same equipment.

And since you are refusing to acknowledge the meaning of the word abstraction, that is all I will say to you.

Good bye.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Which is why OotS is a parody of D&D, and not a D&D game. The rules does not say "if the attack by a horned creature hits for max damage, the horn goes entirely through your torso and out the other side". It says "it does max damage". You can then compare to the total HP pool available to the character, and decide from that what kind of hit it was. And if there is a substantial amount of HP left, then the blow must not have been that bad, because the character is good at fighting. And thus, yes, they can still keep running around, because they have plenty of stamina left.

GW

Fair enough.

[Metastachydium]

None of which a peasant wears. Nor is it a requirement to wear armour to have a helmet. You can RP that your wizard has a metal cap, for all the rules care.


Like I already said, by knowing how to best use it to ameliorate the blow, because they know what they are doing better than a regular person with the same equipment.

And since you are refusing to acknowledge the meaning of the word abstraction, that is all I will say to you.

Good bye.

GW

You presented what you think hp does and gave two examples of how this can be RP-d. I pointed out that both examples are bad because the game has mechanics other than hp that cover what you claim hp does in your examples, and now you're flingin insults at me, because why not.
You know what? I see no point in continuing this conversation either so your leaving it is most welcome.

[Ironsmith]

This has nothing to do with the disintegrate discussion, but it irks me as an example, because I see it so often. HP is not a raw measure of "health", it is an abstraction of the ability to operate in combat. If you hit a peasant's head with a cudgel, he goes down. But the same exact blow to a seasoned warrior will only partially connect: they will know how to duck to lessen the impact, they will have a helmet to help, they will have partially deflected it and weaved so it is not a straight hit. The result is that they can take multiple more such blows before exhaustion causes them to falter and finally collapse. Levelling up doesn't suddenly make you healthier, it just indicates you are better at knowing how to ameliorate hits.

Grey Wolf

I always understood hp from levels to be a combined matter of pain tolerance and actual, physical toughness. People with more hp are clearly taking more physical damage; they need more powerful magic to get back to an "unharmed" state, and there are clear examples of situations that shouldn't be survivable not killing someone with enough hp (i.e. being thrown off a cliff, having a dragon blast you with solar-level heat, et cetera). The general idea is that, IRL, people are generally better at handling stressful situations they've already handled in the past; take that principle, and extend it to its (il)logical conclusion. A high-level Fighter can handle being impaled by a charging minotaur because he's done it before (well, last time it was a pike, but you get the idea).

This also neatly explains why different classes not only get different starting values for hp, but also gain them at different rates. A Barbarian has shouldered more than his fair share of injuries, some number of which may have even been intentional, while a Rogue generally avoids those sorts of situations (but has still gotten into them before), and a Wizard's idea of a bad injury is accidentally burning their hand on the candlein their study.

But to be honest, it makes total sense that the hp system is unrealistic. That's the point. It's a necessary component of escapism to have things not be like reality, in a good way.

[KorvinStarmast]

I always understood hp from levels to be a combined matter of pain tolerance and actual, physical toughness. The AD&D 1e DMG first tried to explain this: it used as an example "he just won't die" in the case of the real life person Rasputin. It then went on to given an in-game example. Different editions varied this over time. In other words, Hit Points Are Not Meat. :smallbiggrin:

Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5.5 hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points. I offered a detailed treatment of how things varied between editions here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/108501/22566). Interestingly, the first time "negative HP doesn't mean you are dead" came in AD&D 1e. AD&D 2e went back to 'you are dead at 0 HP' and then D&D 3 provided another take on how the negative HP and 'bleeding out' worked. 4e had yet another twist on it (with performance penalties if you were below half HP for some conditions) and 5e did another thing with death saving throws and massive damage. I still think that Gary G's attempt at explanation is one of the better 'HP are not meat' treatments in terms of usability. That said, for the edition that OoTS is based from:

What hit points represent
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. d20SRD, Injury and Death.
{taking 50+ HP in one blow forces a death save (Fortitude, DC 15)}
This also neatly explains why different classes not only get different starting values for hp, but also gain them at different rates. Yes.

But to be honest, it makes total sense that the hp system is unrealistic. That's the point. It's a necessary component of escapism to have things not be like reality, in a good way. No argument with that. :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

It seems to me that Disintegrate would act on the first object that it strikes, which would include things like force walls and glass but not air. Rock to Mud isn't so obvious. For example, if one wanted to use it under water, would one have to be touching the stone in question, so the spell wasn't expended on the water? Can Disintegrate be used under water?Water (as opposed to ice) is not a solid barrier, thus doesn't block line of effect. Neither disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) nor transmute rock to mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) are fire spells, so there are no special rules with regards to using them underwater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#fire); they'd work for a creature in water the same as they would for a creature in air. (In the case of transmute rock to mud, that'd mean having line of effect to some point of the shapeable area you're wanting to transmute from rock into mud.)

[Fyraltari]

The AD&D 1e DMG first tried to explain this: it used as an example "he just won't die" in the case of the real life person Rasputin.

The sad truth is that the story of Rasputin taking an ungodly amout of physical damage before finally dying was fabricated by his murderers. Oh, and the fact that his corpse sat up during his cremation (a rare but not unique freak occurence) did not help.

[WanderingMist]

1) Disintegrate would not need to create a sentient entity to accomplish its effect. Even if we grant that it somehow has sensory perception (to set its own boundaries), there are many examples of non-sentient lifeforms that do something similar, some of which are living in or under your house right now (i.e. bedbugs, which can seek out living creatures to suckle from, but are clearly nowhere near sentience). Additionally, given that Disintegrate is only able to take out a 10-foot cube of unliving matter, there are definitely upper limits to how much damage it could do if its caster makes a miscalculation.


I think you've confused sentience with sapience here. They may act solely on instinct, but they are certainly aware of what things are natural dangers to them.

[Peelee]

Yet, a Disintegrate ray hits a person and instantly dusts that person's armor, clothes, skin, muscles, bones, internal organs, blood, gut flora, everything - yet it doesn't touch the air molecules around them,

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

[Ironsmith]

I think you've confused sentience with sapience here. They may act solely on instinct, but they are certainly aware of what things are natural dangers to them.

Not in this case, no. If we want to get into the semantics of sapience versus sentience, insects don't qualify for either. Lacking a centralized nervous system takes them off the table for a lot.


No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

Plus, it's already a group of free-floating molecles; exactly how much more disintegrated can it get?

[Canisius]

Seems pretty early in this book to have a final confrontation. So I'm hoping we get diverted into a story about the Azurites learning about their mysterious captors.

(I don't just do this with episodic webcomics - at the end of each chapter of fiction I read, I like to spend a few seconds wondering "where will this go next?)

[skim172]

There's also the fact that it's possible to make homing missiles without making them sentient either, so...

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

But a Disintegrate spell can differentiate between its target and what's around it. It knows what is a person and what isn't. And that fundamentally requires some level of cognition to be able to conceptualize what is an "object" or "entity" that is different from the objects around it. A human body isn't innately a "human" - it can be defined as a mass of organic compounds, or a conglomeration of complex cells, or an accumulation of different types of tissues, or an bunch of intertwined layers of different fluid and electric circuits, or a skeleton with a bunch of gooey bits stuck to it, or a bag of flesh with some other things inside it, or a mosaic of colors - and many other ways.

A camera sees us as reflections of light. An X-ray sees us as a map of different densities. A microphone hears us as vibrations of gas molecules. It takes some sort of cognition - and relatively advanced cognition (compared to like, bacteria) - to conceive of this as a single unified entity that has significance as a "thing", that is separate from the other sensory data around it. And then to destroy that thing, and only that thing.

When that homing missile hits a plane and explodes, it's not going to affect only the plane that it hits. It's going to spread out and damage all in a certain radius from the point of detonation. That explosion does not extend beyond that radius, nor will it stop when it reaches the end of the plane.

But Disintegrate's destructive power does not diminish with distance from its original point of impact. It keeps going, with equal destructive force, until it abruptly stops when it reaches the target's feet. That is something pretty remarkable.

Also remarkable - the Disintegrate ray knows that it's supposed to kill the raging barbarian that it's targeted at. It does not, for example, allow itself to be stopped by some passing bacteria or a floating spray of pollen, or any of the microscopic organisms that reside on the barbarian's skin. These are also living creatures, separate from the target - but the Disintegrate spell knows it's not supposed to stop for them.

[Peelee]

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it.

But a Disintegrate spell can differentiate between its target and what's around it. It knows what is a person and what isn't.

No it doesn't. It knows solid, contiguous objects up to a maximum volume. The person, clothes, items, etc are all within its volume requirements. The ground is not. The larger contiguous object that is too big for the volume requirement is excluded.

Thats very simple, basic programming. Nothing more.

[bunsen_h]

No-sentient air always makes its dexterity saving throw.

You're reminding me of Alexander Abian and his "theories" about how MATTER BEHAVES so as to INCREASE its sense of SECURITY. Including, yes, sentient air (https://groups.google.com/g/sci.physics/c/7CvZzA1-mAc/m/XwtwMc5zJp4J)... which he claimed is afraid of sulfuric acid, for example.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABIAN MASS-TIME EQUIVALENCE FORMULA m = Mo(1-exp(T/(kT-Mo))) Abian units.

ALTER EARTH'S ORBIT AND TILT - STOP GLOBAL DISASTERS AND EPIDEMICS

ALTER THE SOLAR SYSTEM. REORBIT VENUS INTO A NEAR EARTH-LIKE ORBIT


TO CREATE A BORN AGAIN EARTH (1990)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not one of our favourite people in the science and math newsgroups, back in the day.

[MoiMagnus]

Magic's ability to recognize and discern a living being and its accoutrements as a single distinct entity separate from the environment around it is actually quite remarkable.

[...]


I'd contest the existence of atoms in the D&D universe. You will probably have an easier time finding a coherence if you try to use some less scientific frameworks like, like the reality being made of "shadows" from the world of concepts (cf Platon). In other words, the fact that an object is yielded by a living being is a physical property of the object and of the living, which can be experimentally tested, not a weird property of spells.

In this approach, going through fire yielding objects does not damage them if you survive, both with magical fire (spells explicitly say it) and mundane fire.

(Similarly, a lot of magic make much more sense if you assume matter is made of the different elements, like the aristotelian view of the world, instead of atoms)

[hamishspence]

There's always the option of combining atomic theory with Aristotelian theory, as per this essay:


http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, but a homing missile targets a certain radar signature or a heat signal or a coordinate in space. When it chases its target, it doesn't "see" a plane or recognize that the plane is not the same thing as the environment around it. It's a bit of a problem trying to tie RL stuff into Magic in D&D, but let me take a crack at this from another angle:

The boost phase intercept method of Ballistic Missile Defense (a 25 year old effort at least) goes after a very discrete thing using a finely tunable/focused laser. When I knew anything about it, though, it wasn't man portable. I suspect that with the advances in AI over the past ten years, and the compression of processors, you'll find a lot more nuance in what's in a seeker head than the illustrations you've been offering. (FWIW, there's an entire family of brilliant munitions that target certain parts of an armored vehicle's armor, but it's been years since I was up to date on those).

As I mentioned in another post, it's been over 15 years but some of the new guidance packages I was aware of for air munitions had well transcended what a Sidewinder does with IR. Between a couple of NDAs and not being current, I'll stop there.

To sum up: I think that AI is progressing to the point that something like what Disintegrate does, vis a vis target discrimination and destructive potential is either on line now or will be very soon. That said, I see the mechanics of disintegrate as a two part implementation: the Wizard acts as the unit with the laser designator (wizard brain sees and selects the target) and the spell effect acts as the aircraft launching the Hellfire or dropping the GBU-12 or whatever.

I suspect that the only character in OoTS who would appreciate this kind of answer is Redcloak, and his 'periodic table of the elements' elemental summons. The rest would, I suspect, roll their eyes at all this. :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

It's a bit of a problem trying to tie RL stuff into Magic in D&D, but let me take a crack at this from another angle:

The boost phase intercept method of Ballistic Missile Defense (a 25 year old effort at least) goes after a very discrete thing using a finely tunable/focused laser. When I knew anything about it, though, it wasn't man portable. I suspect that with the advances in AI over the past ten years, and the compression of processors, you'll find a lot more nuance in what's in a seeker head than the illustrations you've been offering. (FWIW, there's an entire family of brilliant munitions that target certain parts of an armored vehicle's armor, but it's been years since I was up to date on those).

As I mentioned in another post, it's been over 15 years but some of the new guidance packages I was aware of for air munitions had well transcended what a Sidewinder does with IR. Between a couple of NDAs and not being current, I'll stop there.

To sum up: I think that AI is progressing to the point that something like what Disintegrate does, vis a vis target discrimination and destructive potential is either on line now or will be very soon. That said, I see the mechanics of disintegrate as a two part implementation: the Wizard acts as the unit with the laser designator (wizard brain sees and selects the target) and the spell effect acts as the aircraft launching the Hellfire or dropping the GBU-12 or whatever.

I suspect that the only character in OoTS who would appreciate this kind of answer is Redcloak, and his 'periodic table of the elements' elemental summons. The rest would, I suspect, roll their eyes at all this. :smallcool:

V might appreciate it, actually.