Hexblade with bard dip, or bard with hexblade dip?

[Hiro Quester]

We are starting a new campaign in a little while, and I’m thinking about ideas for my new character.


Since I like playing a Gish/face, I am drawn towards a hexblade or bard.

A dip of up to three levels into bard, on a hexblade seems promising, to add more low level spell slots, bardic inspiration, face skills and the beginning of a college’s abilities ( glamor seems good for out of combat performance+charm, and in combat giving the party temporary hit points a move as a reaction).

A dip of one level of hex blade, with the rest in valor bard also seems very promising. Adding the hexblade’s curse, charisma to attack and damage, hexblade cantrips and spells (eldrich blast, armor of agythys, hex, shield) to a base with bards skills, abilities,and more versatile casting.

I have not yet played 5e, except a couple of sessions playing a rogue/fighter NPC at 20th level, for the end of a campaign.

Both of these options seem fun to me. I’d appreciate advice, especially from anyone who has played either.

[Bobthewizard]

I think hexblade fixes a lot of weaknesses in a bard for just one level, so that one is great. Hexblade 1 and then bard all the way. You could take a second level later if you want invocations but that delays bard goodies some more.

I'm not sure that 3 levels of bard is better than just going pure hexblade. I'd maybe consider it sometime after level 5 but pure hexblade is really good too.

Treantmonk had a hexbalde/swords bard that could be fun. Hexblade 1/bard 6/warlock to 3 then bard the rest. It seemed like a good build, especially at levels 9-12 or so.

[diplomancer]

Swords Bard is probably a better fit than Valor Bard if you are going the hex1/Bard X route.

[Keravath]

It depends on what you want to do with the character.

If you are looking for a "gish" meaning a primarily melee fighter with some magic options then there are several ways you can go.

For that I would tend to go Hexblade with GWM or PAM. Take agonizing blast for ranged attacks.

However, agonizing blast is good, so good and requiring so little investment that if you actually want to do more damage using melee attacks than with agonizing blast you have to build specifically for that - especially at level 11+ in tier 3 and tier 4.

The baseline damage from agonizing blast is d10+charisma with 2 attacks at character level 5, 3 at 11 and 4 at 17. The only build requirements are one cantrip and one invocation. No matter which build you go with you should have 2 levels of warlock to enable the ranged attack option with agonizing blast.

A PAM hexblade with thirsting blade+improved pact weapon at level 5 using a glaive will have two attacks for d10+charisma and an additional bonus action attack for d4+charisma. At level 12, the melee hexblade keeps pace by picking up the Lifedrinker invocation. The melee hexblade can also efficiently use better +2 or +3 magical weapons if you happen to come across any. These invocations + feat will keep the melee hexblade doing more damage than agonizing blast (even if only by a few points). This character is focused on melee damage and can have a bit of support from their own spell slots (likely used for Darkness+Devils sight until level 7 when it is replaced by Shadow of Moil to create a situation in which most of the attacks are made with advantage). This works well when combined with GWM to offset the -5 penalty to hit. Any spell slots from a bard or sorcerer multiclass are mostly for utility.

That said, I find the bard X/warlock 2 to actually be a much more versatile character. Swords bard is decent and multiclassing hexblade fills the armor, shield and weapon proficiency requirements. Valor bard overlaps with hexblade a bit since the valor bard picks up medium armor, shields and martial weapon proficiencies at 3rd level. Both the swords bard and valor bard don't pick up extra attack until level 6. The swords bard can pick up the dueling or two weapon fighting style as well as a series of "flourishes" that use your bardic inspiration in combat to increase your AC, or do a bit more damage while either doing damage to a second target or pushing an opponent away by 5'.

The biggest issue is that the bard builds don't typically have the same mechanisms to increase melee damage that are available to the hexblade. The improved pact weapon and life drinker both increase melee weapon damage into tier 3.

Swords bard or Valor bard are both limited to 2 attacks with an option for a bonus action attack using 2 weapon fighting if they forego a shield. They don't have the built in mechanisms (like Shadow of Moil or Darkness+Devils sight) to generate advantage on attacks. You could take PAM on the bard builds for the extra attack but with a hexblade multiclass the earliest you get extra attack will be character level 7. The main issue is that Agonizing blast from 2 levels of warlock will typically do about the same or more damage at range than the melee attacks unless you invest in feats and even then without the advantage generating mechanisms they don't tend to be as effective as a primary hexblade. (Keep in mind that the hex warrior feature that allows using charisma for attack and damage with a weapon doesn't work with two handed weapons - so no two handed swords, glaives etc).

However, if you want to be more of a caster, there is very little that beats a lore bard X/ hexblade 2 in my opinion. The hexblade synergizes well with the lore bard in terms of defensive proficiencies. Agonizing blast provides an always available ranged cantrip attack and the character is free to use ASIs for boosting charisma rather than investing in melee combat feats. However, it does delay the spellcasting from the bard - especially picking up 3rd level spells and short rest bardic inspiration which both occur at level 5.

Anyway, if you prefer to focus on the melee combat aspect, I would tend to go with mostly hexblade, blade pact, warlock while if you want a caster/skill/face character the lore bard X/hexblade 2 is hard to beat. Otherwise, for a more magic heavy gish type character you could go either swords or valor bard (probably swords) with a level or 2 of hexblade warlock mixed in but your melee attacks won't be able to be competitive with agonizing blast until well into tier 2 (and even then it will depend on what magic weapons you happen to find since you are limited to 1 handed or finesse weapons typically - which a blade pact hexblade is not).

[MrCharlie]

We are starting a new campaign in a little while, and I’m thinking about ideas for my new character.


Since I like playing a Gish/face, I am drawn towards a hexblade or bard.

A dip of up to three levels into bard, on a hexblade seems promising, to add more low level spell slots, bardic inspiration, face skills and the beginning of a college’s abilities ( glamor seems good for out of combat performance+charm, and in combat giving the party temporary hit points a move as a reaction).

A dip of one level of hex blade, with the rest in valor bard also seems very promising. Adding the hexblade’s curse, charisma to attack and damage, hexblade cantrips and spells (eldrich blast, armor of agythys, hex, shield) to a base with bards skills, abilities,and more versatile casting.

I have not yet played 5e, except a couple of sessions playing a rogue/fighter NPC at 20th level, for the end of a campaign.

Both of these options seem fun to me. I’d appreciate advice, especially from anyone who has played either.
Don't forget proficencies from hexblade. Medium armor and shields are very good for a caster whom has middling DEX, and you have little impetuous to invest into DEX once you have hexblade CHA to attack and damage.

The one negative with bard gishing is that, while you can have some moderate effect in combat like all Gishes, you lack either the nova of a paladin gish or the competent survivability of an eldritch knight. You're not a tanky Gish due to the spell list, and you're not a nova Gish because no divine smite. What this leaves you with is a character who is almost always better served with just casting spells or using inspiration.

This leaves the Bard Gish as a class who saves Gishing for easily won combats or combats where you've exhausted all (or almost all) spells.

This isn't to say that you can't make a good Gish with Bard levels, but typically you're more of another class than Bard and only dip Bard for inspiration on a character who already has a good charisma. Hexblade/Paladin actually really likes Swords Bard as a potential dip, because it gets you more smites as well as a short-rest recharge system with bardic inspiration. Remember that swords bard never actually requires dexterity to do anything.

(Valor bard is awful in comparison to sword, by the way-and Whispers is a viable alternative to both).

There are also some almighty complicated builds that basically dip all the martial charisma classes+battlemaster in order to trigger a ton of effects on hit and trigger reaction attacks with maneuvers, and Swords bard potentially fits in here somewhere. With the new Tasha's fighting styles 5 levels for 3rd level spells, short rest inspiration+blade flourish, and another fighting style is potentially appealing. These builds can be extremely complex, and the most complicated character I've ever seen had some swords bard in there as one of the "primary" classes (along five others-Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Fighter, and Sorcerer, only plausible with a rolled array).

The key with Bard dips is that you want 5 levels and a class combo that can afford to take 5 levels to sojourn. 1/4th of your total levels if a hefty investment, but bardic inspiration on a short rest recharge system is rather good. Rogues and Paladins all get their primary damage mechanisms through means that are very modular and generally multiclass friendly and both are also very compatible with a sword bards fighting style (finesse weapons and spell slots). Hell, two-weapon fighting is even good on a paladin, or at least okay, and swords bard is one of the more practical ways for them to get it. But if you want to build a character that is primarily a fighter, warlock, or some other class you run into issues where the level requirements are now a bit crippling-where you ought to just be a higher level fighter or warlock instead.

[Hiro Quester]

The one negative with bard gishing is that, while you can have some moderate effect in combat like all Gishes, you lack either the nova of a paladin gish or the competent survivability of an eldritch knight. You're not a tanky Gish due to the spell list, and you're not a nova Gish because no divine smite. What this leaves you with is a character who is almost always better served with just casting spells or using inspiration.

This leaves the Bard Gish as a class who saves Gishing for easily won combats or combats where you've exhausted all (or almost all) spells.

I see valor bard as having a good nova ability in their Battle Magic college feature at 14th level. Every time you cast a spell you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action. This incentivizes front-line casting, such as firing a disintegrate spell into an enemy’s face, then finishing them off with your weapon attack. That seems potentially as good as the best smite.

[MrCharlie]

I see valor bard as having a good nova ability in their Battle Magic college feature at 14th level. Every time you cast a spell you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action. This incentivizes front-line casting, such as firing a disintegrate spell into an enemy’s face, then finishing them off with your weapon attack. That seems potentially as good as the best smite.
It's not though. Or rather, the disintegrate is good, the bonus action attack isn't. Something like Bigby's Hand as a bonus is significantly more effective-but it's a spell slot (and concentration). It's mildly effective when you're low on spell slots, but you're not going to compete with a typical fighter or Paladin at doing what they do.

[Hiro Quester]

It's not though. Or rather, the disintegrate is good, the bonus action attack isn't. Something like Bigby's Hand as a bonus is significantly more effective-but it's a spell slot (and concentration). It's mildly effective when you're low on spell slots, but you're not going to compete with a typical fighter or Paladin at doing what they do.

i don’t think the point is to compete with the fighter or paladin.

the point is to have a variety of options, in social and combat roles, and to be able to make a contribution to combat encounters from the front lines, being all heroic and dashing and such. Rather than hiding in back with the casters.

it seems to me that bard with a bit of warlock can achieve this. And so can warlock with a bit of bard.


What I’m hearing is that bard with a bit of warlock is worse than I expect at that role. Is this correct?

[Lokishade]

I dipped 1 level of Hexblade specifically for the Hexblade Curse and Hex. The rest is all Bard.

The shenanigan I aim for is at level 7, where my Lore Bard will pick up his first magical secrets. I aim specifically for Magic Missile to abuse the heck out of the Hexblade Curse and Hex. By setting it up properly, MM will do ((1d4+4)*3)+3d6 for an average of 25 unavoidable damage on a level 1 spell (45 on a level 3).

I avoid taking more Hexblade levels because, while 2 evocations would be nifty, progress through Magical Secrets is already delayed by a level.

[Hiro Quester]

I’m now really warming to the idea of a variant human (war caster feat) bard1/hexblade1/ bard(swords) +5/hexblade +2/ bard +11

it seems to be very versatile, as party face and frontline caster, with decent skill options, extra attack, duelist style, spells as attacks of opportunity and your weapon as arcane focus for both warlock and bard spells.

It has a cha +proficiency to attack and damage, a few sources of extra damage (hex, blade flourishes, booming blade), agonizing eldrich blast for ranged attacks, good mobility, and decent defenses (med armor and shield, shield spell, inspiration for extra AC, ).

Plus the casting of a 17th level bard, for versatility.

are there downsides to this that I can’t see?

[Hakuman]

I’m now really warming to the idea of a variant human (war caster feat) bard1/hexblade1/ bard(swords) +5/hexblade +2/ bard +11

it seems to be very versatile, as party face and frontline caster, with decent skill options, extra attack, duelist style, spells as attacks of opportunity and your weapon as arcane focus for both warlock and bard spells.

It has a cha +proficiency to attack and damage, a few sources of extra damage (hex, blade flourishes, booming blade), agonizing eldrich blast for ranged attacks, good mobility, and decent defenses (med armor and shield, shield spell, inspiration for extra AC, ).

Plus the casting of a 17th level bard, for versatility.

are there downsides to this that I can’t see?

To add - a variant human (polearm master), can pay 5gp for an arcane stave - use that as a quarterstaff - and then use staff and shield to get both the +2 AC shield bonus, and cast spells with a Shield/quarterstaff in hand, and get the PAM benefits of opportunity attacks when opponents come within 5'. The benefits of starting as Bard (extra musical instruments) seem to be outweighed by the weakness of the Bard at lvl 1 vs the lvl 1 hexblade. At that point you can also get a Shield and a bonus attack each round with the quarterstaff. (See PAM) - and the bonus attack gets the charisma bonus as it is the same weapon. I imaging Lore college will offer some sneaky spell choices especially as more content gets published. Fun and playable!

[DarknessEternal]

Dipping Bard adds absolutely nothing of value to Warlock.

Dipping Warlock is transformative to Bard. Do this one if you want a mix.