20th level fighter vs infinite 1st level wizards armed with wands. [Archive]

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 12:20 PM

OK... So with infinite wizards, they will pass literally any caster level UMD check for the wands they need to make to emulate a caster level class spell list, so they send out infinite copies of every 4th or lower spell. I think the fighter needs to do one of two things:

* Win initiative 100% of the time

* Be immune to anything a level 4th or lower spell can do

I don't think the latter is realistic without TO shenanigans (reminds me of Anthrowhale's Exfighter). It's just hard to deal with literally every effect in the game all at once. To do the first, we'd need to know the maximum initiative a wizard could have at level 1. There was a thread recently with a level 1 wizard vs a level 1 fighter (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615358-Wizard-vs-fighter-low-level-melee&highlight=fighter%2C+wizard%2C+nerveskitter) that had an initiative fight for a while. I think the wizard ended up with 15 initiative, although someone can correct me if I am wrong there.

So the fighter needs at least +35 to initiative. They have access to way more WBL than the wizards, so that shouldn't be an impossible task. Then, as someone else suggested, greater cleave is probably the right way to go. If there are infinite wizards, they can't be spread out, as they'd take up infinite space on the board.

With that said, we now have to deal with natural 1s. Better Lucky Than Dead deals with 1 natural 1, but we're going to roll an infinite amount of nat 1s against infinite wizards. I'm not sure if there's a way to actually deal with that, which is complicated; we can't rely on save-based poisons or things, as an infinite amount of wizards with 19/20 that fail and die still leaves us with an infinite amount of wizards. It has to be damage, and I'm not sure of another easy way to deal infinite damage as a fighter without Greater Cleave. Any ideas on how to ignore nat 1s or turn them into nat 20s or something? I could have sworn there was a feat like that, but I can't seem to find it.

Jack_Simth

2021-01-27, 01:33 PM

Fighter needs:
Permanent flight.
Permanent invisibility
Better than Long range
Immunity to fatigue
Immunity to hunger
Infinite ammo
A super long range bow.

Get out of range and pepper forever.

Note that this assumes the wiz-1's don't have things they couldn't reasonably buy with PC starting cash, and don't pool wealth.

Quentinas

2021-01-27, 01:40 PM

For the spell of level 4 or lesser an item with a continuos effect of globe of invulnerability? If it was only level 3 or lesser as spells the lesser globe of invulnerability was enough , the cost would be 2000x6 (spell level) x4 (based on round/level) x 11 (caster level) so 582k (in the wealth by level but is quite the amount) and i don't know if one can use dispel magic on a globe of invulnerability as dispel magic is a magic effect of 4th level or less

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 02:29 PM

Fighter needs:
Permanent flight.
Permanent invisibility
Better than Long range
Immunity to fatigue
Immunity to hunger
Infinite ammo
A super long range bow.

Get out of range and pepper forever.

That's fair. I'm not so sure invisibility helps here though. Infinite wizards means the infinite wizards can cast See Invisibility, and have their infinite number of friends cast Guidance of the Avatar. I guess it helps if the fighter loses initiative though; as long as the wizards don't hit a nat 20 with a +10 to spot, we should be safe on the first round if we're permanently invisibile. That buys us either a round of movement, or a round to teleport with an item of some sort. We should have WBL for some sort of item with a teleportation effect.

We have to be 400 + 40/level feet away; wands are made at minimum caster level, but wands with a 4th level ranger spell would be caster level 14, so we'd have to be 965 feet away to be safe from landbound wizards due to range. Wizards will obviously fail their spot checks to get line of sight at that range anyway; we'd have to make the checks at that distance though, and have a weapon who can fire at that range increment.

So far we need...

Permanent invisibility
Long-range teleportation (~1000ft)
Permanent flight.
A spot modifier of +87
Better than Long range weapon (at least 965ft)
Infinite ammo
Immunity to fatigue
Immunity to hunger

Note that this assumes the wiz-1's don't have things they couldn't reasonably buy with PC starting cash, and don't pool wealth.

Wizard's starting WBL can probably be assumedly spent on these wands, haha

lylsyly

2021-01-27, 02:43 PM

20th level fighter vs infinite 1st level wizards armed with wands.

There lies your answer. No matter how fast the Fighter can mow them down he can never win.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 02:44 PM

20th level fighter vs infinite 1st level wizards armed with wands.

There lies your answer. No matter how fast the Fighter can mow them down he can never win.

If we establish a lock where the fighter kills wizards but cannot be killed by the wizards, given infinite time, he should be able to be considered as winning

lylsyly

2021-01-27, 03:01 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 03:03 PM

Saint-Just

2021-01-27, 04:51 PM

Probably it's the best to describe "win" or "solved" condition as one where there is no chance for a fighter to be damaged by the wizards and where fighter has a chance to damage at least one wizard. That will result in unresolvable situation which moment from moment looks like fighter winning. Either that or ability to make infinite number of attacks before the first wizard.

JNAProductions

2021-01-27, 06:27 PM

You know, I see something like this, and I wonder how much is Fighter, and how much is WBL.

To put another way, could an equally well-equipped Commoner achieve the same things that this Fighter can?

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 06:39 PM

You know, I see something like this, and I wonder how much is Fighter, and how much is WBL.

To put another way, could an equally well-equipped Commoner achieve the same things that this Fighter can?

It depends on if there's some way to consistently turn natural 1s into not-natural-1s. If there is, the Greater Cleave method can work, and it'll mostly be Fighter; if it's not, then we have to rely on invisibility/teleportation/flight/etc, and it's mostly WBL-mancy.

Saint-Just

2021-01-27, 07:33 PM

Now that I think about it, the first idea (fighter is invulnerable, wizards are vulnerable) does not result in unresolvable situation. Infinity human wizards will die of old age in less than 93 years. Now, fighter with a min starting age of 16 has only 1/400 chance of living longer than that (since there is an infinite amount of wizards who are only 17 and who will live to 110 fighter needs to roll two 20's to clearly beat them) or 1/2400 for a fighter with randomly generated starting age, but surely there is some item which will add 43 years to lifespan so even a fighter with the starting age of 21 and who secretly rolled 72 for his maximum age will be able to live longer than 93 years.

Now I'd probably consider just this item + invulnerability to be cheating, but it is technically a win. Or, if you can squeeze longevity plus invulnerability plus even meager DD into WBL you can have clear win, and not just unresolvable situation. Or going the other way any strategy without longevity bonus is losing, since some wizards will outlive the fighter.

Of course if even a small fraction (that is, infinity) of the wizards don't have a maximum age it's back to the being unresolvable.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 07:35 PM

Now that I think about it, the first idea (fighter is invulnerable, wizards are vulnerable) does not result in unresolvable situation. Infinity human wizards will die of old age in less than 93 years. Now, fighter with a min starting age of 16 has only 1/400 chance of living longer than that (since there is an infinite amount of wizards who are only 17 and who will live to 110 fighter needs to roll two 20's to clearly beat them) or 1/2400 for a fighter with randomly generated starting age, but surely there is some item which will add 43 years to lifespan so even a fighter with the starting age of 21 and who secretly rolled 72 for his maximum age will be able to live longer than 93 years.

Now I'd probably consider just this item + invulnerability to be cheating, but it is technically a win. Or, if you can squeeze longevity plus invulnerability plus even meager DD into WBL you can have clear win, and not just unresolvable situation. Or going the other way any strategy without longevity bonus is losing, since some wizards will outlive the fighter.

OK, but since we're in a silly thought area at this point, do the level 1 wizards have the resources to use the sacrifice rules to do anything to lower their age?

Also, here's a thought: if the fighter waits out long enough, can we kill off all wizards of specific races based on food consumption? The fighter has a lot more WBL, and doesn't have infinity mouths to feed. That might have some implications. Although of course there's still infinity wizards remaining, they might all be warforged if we wait 30 days, or something to that effect.

The_Jette

2021-01-27, 07:50 PM

Saint-Just

2021-01-27, 07:58 PM

OK, but since we're in a silly thought area at this point, do the level 1 wizards have the resources to use the sacrifice rules to do anything to lower their age?

Also, here's a thought: if the fighter waits out long enough, can we kill off all wizards of specific races based on food consumption? The fighter has a lot more WBL, and doesn't have infinity mouths to feed. That might have some implications. Although of course there's still infinity wizards remaining, they might all be warforged if we wait 30 days, or something to that effect.

You don't get it. Wizards eat other wizards. And drink their blood.

(Elans also do not have a maximum age and can sustaing themselves by spending power points which they get innately, and if something that affect all warforged is unlikely having to affect both warforged and elans (aberrations) is probably too much)

Zancloufer

2021-01-27, 11:11 PM

I think some clarification would be helpful. My question is: why do the Wizards get wands? Without using money shenanigans, a 1st level wizard really should not be able to afford a wand with their starting funds. Even if they all started with max funds (120gp), a level 1 wand with a level 1 caster level costs 750 gp. And, people are talking about giving them wands with level 4 spells in them. That's a minimum of 21,000gp (that's not even touching on what one guy mentioned from the Ranger spell list having a 14th CL). Why are they being given wealth that should be far beyond their grasps? Things are hard enough on the level 20 fighter having to fight an infinite number of enemies.

Partially charged wands. Also while a Wizard can have up to 110 GP they start the game with a spell book worth about ~600GP, which can by RAW be sold for 300 GP.

Still even with 410 GP they actually can't afford a level 4 wand with 1 charge as it has a cost of 420 GP per charge. As such our fighting only needs a globe of lesser invulnerability to be immune to direct wizard spell casting if limited to level 1 wizards.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-27, 11:16 PM

Partially charged wands. Also while a Wizard can have up to 110 GP they start the game with a spell book worth about ~600GP, which can by RAW be sold for 300 GP.

Still even with 410 GP they actually can't afford a level 4 wand with 1 charge as it has a cost of 420 GP per charge. As such our fighting only needs a globe of lesser invulnerability to be immune to direct wizard spell casting if limited to level 1 wizards.

That still leaves us vulnerable to the globe being dispelled, but maybe we can answer that with a Spellblade? Does the Dispel Magic target the globe, or the fighter? If it has to target the fighter, then spellblade would work. Then the fighter can cut down the wizards at his leisure.

... the fighter, in this scenario, also needs to be able to either be immune to damage or to get out of range of the wizard's nonproficient unarmed strikes, as they'll roll an infinite amount of nat-20s against them.

Wildstag

2021-01-28, 12:26 AM

Fighter needs:
Permanent flight.
Permanent invisibility
Better than Long range
Immunity to fatigue
Immunity to hunger
Infinite ammo
A super long range bow.

Get out of range and pepper forever.

I don't think all of this would be necessary, but that's just because I'd build differently (and probably more inefficiently).

I would take four ACFs and a couple feats to accomplish the necessary defenses to sustain combat. Dragonscale Husk, Armored Savant, Eldritch Grace, and Eldritch Juggernaut would altogether grant Resist 20 Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire, SR 31, and Evasion against spell effects (all provided that Dragon Mag is permitted). For feats I'd take Steadfast Determination to get a

From there, I'd say you'd just need a constant Freedom of Movement effect and DR and you should be in the clear. There's a very unpopular option that gives both that I'm kinda fond of, but to mention it here would probably get me stoned. Also its armor bonus wouldn't stack with Dragonscale Husk I think, though I might be wrong on that statement. It'd also give Fast Healing or Regeneration...

From there the ranged weapon and infinite ammo is all I'd specifically consider as necessary. A +5 Composite Longbow (+4) would deal in minimum damage the maximum hit-point total of a level 1 wizard (assuming non-human). From there you'd just need infinite ammo.

It's inefficient, but it's how I'd do it. The fatigue and hunger issue seems a bit of a hurdle, but maybe a 1/day goodberry item that replenishes every day and then some random other item? You'd have to drop the other option, but eh...

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 12:35 AM

The SR stops all SR spells, but there's too many SR: No spells that just do damage. You'd take infinite damage upon passing initiative.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability / Spellblade seems like a safer bet (again assuming that the dispel magic has to target the fighter, not the globe).

Edit: Maybe if you had SR that high, Troll-Blooded, and immunity to nonlethal damage? Then you could throw on Fire Resist 20 and... there's gotta be a decent source of Acid Resist, too. At level 1, can a wizard do enough damage to break through resistance 20? If not, damage is in the clear.

That leaves saves. You will roll a nat 1 eventually, so there's no reason to buff our saves. Are there any SR: No spell effects at level 3 or less that will defeat the fighter that we can't get immunity for?

Ooh... but it's risky to rely on magic gear for this, too, because folks will be casting dispel magic at us. Doesn't that mean they can suppress the magical qualities of our gear?

DMVerdandi

2021-01-28, 12:44 AM

Honestly, this is so bothersome because I understand that a fighter 20 with no magic items would get smoked immediately.

It's spells holding him up, and yes, the answer to that is WBL, but it's a garbage answer.
Ask yourself this, What build would you need from a level 20 fighter stark naked to beat these wizards.

Or it could be any other fellows if the book nonsense comes into play. Sorcerers, or easy bake wizards[which are to me, the standard standard], or what have you.

Can a naked level 20 fighter with feats alone take out even 100? HARD DOUBT. It would be instant.
Of course someone walking around with a globe of invulnerability homebrew item can beat low level magic. That's the rule of the spell, but that is not native to the fighter at all, and in many ways is metagaming.

Even if some insane perfect fighter with every single fighter feat in existence [and this is including...martial stances and maneuvers. ALL OF THEM] came to be

He's not dodging infinite orbs of force. It's not happening. You NEED magic to shut that down. Or a similar 5-d force. Even with martial maneuvers it's not touching it, because the physical world in d&d/pf doesnt interact that way.

Is the guy who extorted the smartest person in the class to do their homework the smartest person in the class? To some sure, but to people really understanding the spirit of the question, no. He's simply cruel. Him passing depends on external factors

1. The smartest person being alive
2.The smartest person CONTINUING
3.The teachers or any other person of authority finding out
ect.

They could be the dumbest person in the class if the police show up and have 0 tolerance.

If the fighter is relying on magic to defeat magic, then the winner is magic.

Is a level 20 wizard's craftmanship better than infinite level 1 wizards? Even then it's iffy, because they could for all things short of something dumb like a wonderous item that gives off globe of invulnerability, infinitely cast hail of stone.

It just reems you with rocks. 1d4 rocks to the face. No save, no spell resistance. Get pelted with hella rocks.
It wouldn't even take long for the chip damage to win.

I'm even fine with a fighter crafting whatever non-magical stuff they want. Give him crafting feats. Make anything you natively can.

But if we are giving this dude the magic mart, then the question is can magic mart beat them, which is STILL a maybe. Nothing they get from fighter bonus feats is going to make a difference, so this might as well be warrior vs wizards, or truly...Commoner vs wizards.

It's the gear, but 5 in mental stats with hax gear is still hax because of his gear.

It's not anything special about the class. He's just a walking hanger, UNLESS, you make it so that they can only use what they can do with the class.

If the class can't create magic items, then they shouldn't be able to buy them in an honest assessment. Because arguably, allowing the infinite wizards to pool resources and just by top grade magic items doesn't honor the spirit of the argument.

Hyperbolic time chamber fight, can Fighter 20 with WBL worth of items that they craft themselves, and equivalent materials necessary, beat infinite level 1 sorcerers. No wand necessary. Just eschew materials. Fighter gets all the prep-time they need to craft items.

Resounding no. THAT^ is how you rate the class. Not coogied down to their socks.
Can they even beat 1000 sorcerers in a row? No. Not infinite. That person would be pelted by rocks until they died. With a HIGH 200 HP, and Adamantine full plate[DR3-], it's taking a couple of rounds to kill even the best schrodinger's fighter.

the raw power of the class is seen when they are limited to their own capabilities.
fighter is D10, class abilities [bonus feats], his skills, regular feats, saves.

and whatever caster is those same things.

An equivalent WBL is fine so long as they could make those items on their own had they went the crafting route, otherwise it has nothing to do with the class whatsovever

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 01:08 AM

Maybe we're going about this wrong. The fighter doesn't have to kill the wizards to win. Is there a way the fighter can intimidate every single wizard that has line of sight to him enough to make them flee? Or is Never Outnumbered the best we have there?

Or... is there something better than Weapon Supremacy we could use to take 10 on attack rolls for a turn?

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-28, 01:14 AM

Nope! Infinite means Infinite! If the fighter has Infinite Time then the Wizards are still Infinite! The converse is also true: a Level 20 Wizard CANNOT kill Infinite Fighters. The very definition of Infinite precludes any solution to either question!!Actually, a wizard could set up an auto-setup where he has things to kill fighters for him. So he goes and does his own thing while he has a trap on a portal that just kills all the infinite fighters streaming through it. And the wizard can alter the battlefield itself to shelter him while he sets everything up (including said portal).

Meanwhile, a fighter has to manually kill stuff.

So the wizard can prevent the infinite fighters from reaching him forever, while he uses astral projection or whatever and goes to another plane to visit Tahiti.

Gruftzwerg

2021-01-28, 02:07 AM

I'm getting addicted to templates the last days as it seems. So why don't we use some useful templates on the fighter?

e.g. the Spellwarped template (+3 LA)
most notable abilities:

Spell Resistance (Ex): A spellwarped creature gains spell resistance equal to 11 + its Hit Dice. If the creature already has spell resistance, use the greater of the two values.

Spell Absorption (Su): Whenever a spell fails to penetrate a spellwarped creature's spell resistance, the creature gains one of the following benefits, chosen at the time that the spell resolves.

Might: The spellwarped creature gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength for 1 minute.

Agility: The spellwarped creature gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity for 1 minute.

Endurance: The spellwarped creature gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution for 1 minute.

Life: The spellwarped creature gains temporary hit points equal to 5 x the level of the failed spell.

Speed: The spellwarped creature's base speed increases by a number of feet equal to 5 x the level of the failed spell.

Resistance: The spellwarped creature gains resistance 10 to one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic).

With the +3LA we have 17 fighter lvls left and thus 28 SR (11+17). The wizard wands have a spell level cap of 4 and thus a maximum of 7 caster level. d20+7 can't beat 28 SR.
Choose acid resistance to ignore the possible 2d4 acid dmg from Acid Arrow (since it bypasses SR & Saves) as first buff.
After getting the buff enhancements, you can start stacking temporary HP. The ability is SU and thus doesn't follow the spellstacking limitation rules for temporary HP. Since the speed buff is untyped, it can also be stacked.

With the template the fighter shouldn't die to the wizards anymore (unless they start to use normal weapons, but getting some DR for that is not the problem imho). Now get a item to fly that can be hidden under your armor /clothes (e.g Ring of Solar Wings (BoED) hidden under gloves. 118000GP). This way it is protected from dispell attempts, since your enemies have no LOS and area dispell doesn't affect worn magic items.

Add a Great Cleave + Spiked Chain build on top and we should have a decent killspeed.

Rynjin

2021-01-28, 02:57 AM

Everybody's going on about how the Fighter could just become immune to spells somehow and I'm just wondering how he deals with the wizards collectively going "Reject modernity, embrace tradition" on him and pelting him with infinite thrown rocks.

Gusmo

2021-01-28, 04:45 AM

Now now, wizards are proficient with all simple weapons. We can do better than rocks, at least give them crossbows. And then cast magic weapon on the crossbows. Maybe they can afford DR bypassing ammunition?

A level 1 wizard can't qualify for energy substitution yet, but energy substitution (fire) and searing spell put on acid splash (ranged touch, 1D3, SR:NO) make a level 1 spell. If wands are in play, an infinite amount of wizards equipped with such wands would eventually kill anything not immune to searing fire damage. Unless there's a way to prevent any of them from getting close enough to use the wands.

Quentinas

2021-01-28, 05:17 AM

Lesser globe of invulnerability would still save the fighter , so is a question of
Can we make a lesser globe of invulnerability that can't be dispelled by a dispel magic in a wand? If we can do that the fighter could have a continuos item of lesser globe of invulnerability (we said before that the wizards can't have a wand with a level 4 , but it would not so be different with globe of invulnerability) while maintaining the cost for a necropolitan ritual and a longbow with enough range to win even against flying wizard? Maybe even using something like a permanency of blindsight to see the eventual invisible wizard? If we can do this the figther can win as he would not have problem with any of the spell casted from the wizard , could still one shot some wizards each round and he would not die of aging or from hunger
The same thing could be done by a villager well equipped I admit, is more the power of WBL than the power of the fighter

Rynjin

2021-01-28, 06:00 AM

Now now, wizards are proficient with all simple weapons. We can do better than rocks, at least give them crossbows. And then cast magic weapon on the crossbows. Maybe they can afford DR bypassing ammunition?

Yeah, but the image of a bunch of scrawny nerds with rocks beaning some heavily armored "Adventurers Weekly" reject in the head until he dies is funnier.

Gruftzwerg

2021-01-28, 06:13 AM

Jack_Simth

2021-01-28, 07:31 AM

That's fair. I'm not so sure invisibility helps here though. Infinite wizards means the infinite wizards can cast See Invisibility, and have their infinite number of friends cast Guidance of the Avatar. I guess it helps if the fighter loses initiative though; as long as the wizards don't hit a nat 20 with a +10 to spot, we should be safe on the first round if we're permanently invisibile. That buys us either a round of movement, or a round to teleport with an item of some sort. We should have WBL for some sort of item with a teleportation effect.

We have to be 400 + 40/level feet away; wands are made at minimum caster level, but wands with a 4th level ranger spell would be caster level 14, so we'd have to be 965 feet away to be safe from landbound wizards due to range. Wizards will obviously fail their spot checks to get line of sight at that range anyway; we'd have to make the checks at that distance though, and have a weapon who can fire at that range increment.

So far we need...

Wizard's starting WBL can probably be assumedly spent on these wands, haha
At 3d4*10 (see PHB page 111), they've got (at most) 120 gp in wealth (assuming they don't sell their starting spellbook or other such shenanigans). Single wand charges are... 15 gp * spell level * caster level. So a 4th level wand with a single charge would be 420 gp - out of reach. A single 3rd level charge, 225 - likewise. A single 2nd level, 90 - just barely in reach.

So that puts a limit on what spells the Wizards can reasonably have: 2nd level Sor/Wiz spells (which is also where they could reasonably be via Precocious Apprentice, assuming you ignore Elven Generalist Domain Wizard ladder-to-9th tricks and similar).

As to how to get the list:

Fighter needs:
Permanent flight: A couple of grafts can do this (Draconic Wings, Feathered Wings, et cetera), a few items too (Ring of Solar Wings, Carpet of Flying, et cetera).
Permanent invisibility: Ring of Invisibility mostly does this (or at least, until the Fighter can get really far away).
Better than Long range: With the flight, only need to do this once. Cape of the Monteback and a move action will do the job of getting you over 800 feet up.
Immunity to fatigue: Warforged or Necropolitan.
Immunity to hunger: Warforged or Necropolitan.
Infinite ammo: Quiver of Anariel
A super long range bow: A Composite Longbow and the Far Shot feat will get you to 1,650 feet (10 range increments).

All should be reasonably available within a fighter-20's WBL.

And the Fighter will have enough BAB and feats to actually have a decent attack bonus (at least as far as hitting a wizard-1 is concerned) despite soaking a -20 via range.

And yes, they'll have needed a crafter wizard (or artificer) in support at some point. But hey, the Fighter does qualify for Leadership.

But yeah, Wizards do it better.

Gusmo

2021-01-28, 09:54 AM

DR + SR + Acid Resistance
Everything easy to get and was already mentioned.

@DR bypassing ammunition
lvl 1 wizards can't afford even a light crossbow (25g) with their 3d6 starting gold. Adamantine ammunition costs +60g.

One of us is missing something here. Acid resistance does not help against the 1D3 searing fire damage. To my knowledge, only effects that cause fire to heal you or total damage immunity can effectively combat spells enhanced with searing metamagic. Probably better for the fighter to go for total damage immunity.

Calthropstu

2021-01-28, 02:57 PM

Is there any way to get:
infinite range
infinite line of sight
ranged attack on every enemy you can see

If you can get all three, you got this.

JNAProductions

2021-01-28, 03:17 PM

Is there any way to get:
infinite range
infinite line of sight
ranged attack on every enemy you can see

If you can get all three, you got this.

Eh... But you'd roll an infinite number of 1s, which would leave infinite Wizards standing.

Calthropstu

2021-01-28, 03:25 PM

Eh... But you'd roll an infinite number of 1s, which would leave infinite Wizards standing.

Unless we can somehow attach an area effect onto the attacks forcing infinite saving throws for half damage still killing all of them.

Kaouse

2021-01-28, 04:17 PM

liquidformat

2021-01-28, 04:24 PM

We have to be 400 + 40/level feet away; wands are made at minimum caster level, but wands with a 4th level ranger spell would be caster level 14, so we'd have to be 965 feet away to be safe from landbound wizards due to range.
Where are you getting level 14 from, a 14th level ranger has caster min caster level 7. Also if we are holding to min caster level that CL7 only stands for spells that are ranger only...

Partially charged wands. Also while a Wizard can have up to 110 GP they start the game with a spell book worth about ~600GP, which can by RAW be sold for 300 GP.

Still even with 410 GP they actually can't afford a level 4 wand with 1 charge as it has a cost of 420 GP per charge. As such our fighting only needs a globe of lesser invulnerability to be immune to direct wizard spell casting if limited to level 1 wizards.
Assuming PHB only there are 19 level 0 spells +3 level 1 spells +Int bonus spells, going worst case wizards with 11int the price of the spellbook is 10+100x (#level 0 +#level spells)gp= 2,210gp for a 'basic' spellbook of a level 1 wizard.

I think until we establish ground rules for the level 1 wizards this will be a pretty difficult question to answer since the bar moves so much depending on how you rule it.

I think the earlier mentioned 100 level 1 wizards vs. level 20 naked fighter is a good starting point. Here are some questions to be answered:

how much starting gold does each wizard get?
can they pool their wealth?
can they sell their spellbook, if so how much do they get for it?
how many wizards can aid another at one time?
what happens if the wizard being 'aided' dies, are we assuming all 'aiding' wizards are sharing initiative by virtue of 'readying their action to aid another'?
what alternate rules are we playing with? (Flaws, LA buyoff, only phb races, only la +0 races, all races on the table)
what sources do we have access to? (core only, all first party, setting specific, dragon mag...)

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 04:39 PM

Magic Missile spam easily takes out any Fighter lacking access to the Shield spell or a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability or a non-insignificant amount of spell resistance. The problem is that Shield and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability have durations, so you'd need a custom item or some **** to get through this.

I think a Mageknight (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/mageknight) should be able to handle this, though.

Actually, Magic Missile allows for spell resistance, so that's no issue. With regard to the other sources of damage though, the temp-hp from absorbed spells should help us here. The fighter should have enough initiative that he gains infinite temp hp at the same time that he takes infinite damage from the magic missiles. We'd have to establish whether, upon gaining infinite temporary hp, it would be depleted by infinite damage. Technically, it should be a larger infinity in the sense that most wizards will have SR: Yes spells, so I'm inclined to err on the side of the fighter just being unkillable by damage at that point? It's kind of a moot point, though, because there's other things to worry about.

Alternatively, the fighter can just use Troll Blooded / Half-Undead (Gheden) to get immunity to all non-fire/non-acid damage, then take the fire subtype for immunity to fire (pay for Mantle of the Fiery Spirit), Tainted Blood (bestiary of krynn) for immunity to acid, and get some big bonus to SR as described to be functionally immune to SR: Yes spells. That leaves specifically Searing Spell, and as a level 1 wizard, they'd be restricted to level 0 spells (as Searing Spell adds +1 to the spell level), leaving no spells they can actually cast to harm him and no physical damage they can deal.

Then, to win in fightery-fashon, we can rely on Supreme Cleave and just pass initiative every time we fumble, then start up again afterward.

Edit: This leaves out the SR: No spells that he'll be pummeled with between levels 1 and 3. As I said before: are there any game-ending SR: No spells at levels 1 - 3 that don't rely on dealing damage?

Wildstag

2021-01-28, 05:07 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 06:29 PM

I think just using Blade of Blood and crossbows will win the day. The wizard would need 12 Constitution but would effectively blow through DR with 1d8+3d6 per bolt fired, which means eventually you'll die from crits.

A friend tells me that with the max range of light crossbow, the following calculation shows how many wizards with Blade of Blood shenanigans can hit the wizard and damage them. With DR 10, 1/20 wizards deal 4 damage average.

(800*800*3.14)/25/20 = 4019 wizards in range that will hit the Fighter on the first round with Blade of Blood bolts that deal 4 damage (average) each. I'm not sure the Fighter survives that.

Troll Blooded (feat) converts all but acid or fire damage into nonlethal.

Half Undead (template) negates all nonlethal damage (LA+1)

Fire subtype gives immunity to fire damage, save for Searing Spell (spell level +1). Because it raises the spell level, wizards can't effectively use this at level 1.

Tainted Blood (template) grants immunity to acid (LA+1)

High enough SE grants immunity to SR: Yes spells

That leaves SR: No spells that target a save to disable in some way.

Zancloufer

2021-01-28, 06:53 PM

Assuming PHB only there are 19 level 0 spells +3 level 1 spells +Int bonus spells, going worst case wizards with 11int the price of the spellbook is 10+100x (#level 0 +#level spells)gp= 2,210gp for a 'basic' spellbook of a level 1 wizard.

Spellbook it's self costs 15 GP. Level 0 scrolls cost 12.5 GP each (19 total in core so ~237.5 GP) and you start with 3-7 level 1 spells (well +5 INT is possible, but unlikely), with a scroll cost of 25 GP each (so 75-175 GP), which makes the cost of the scrolls + the empty book about 327.5~427.5 GP. I will admit I was wrong with my quick math in my head and I did forget about potential bonus spells from int.

Alternately there is a fee of 50 GP per spell level to copy a spell into a book. This gives us our spell book a "value" of 640-840 GP if you paid someone to copy the spells off them, or a max of 1252.5 GP if you had to pay for the scrolls first then a copying fee for 19+7 spells. Even so I'm not sure if you could charge 100% market value for said book making it's actual selling value somewhere between 213.75 to 626.25 GP for a core wizard with 18 INT assuming like most things it sells for half price. Admittedly you could afford 1 charge of a level 4 spell for each wizard, if you could somehow convince someone to buy NI books full of random level 0-1 spells with the copying fee included.

Not sure where you got that 2.2k GP number from.

Harrow

2021-01-28, 07:09 PM

A few things that came to mind reading this thread.

a) Wizard density affects some strategies. Yes, you have infinite wizards in infinite squares, but that doesn't mean that every square has a wizard in it. For an example, take our universe: infinite space, infinite matter, more space than matter. Infinities are weird like that. However, this cuts both ways. Lower wizard density means fewer of them getting Cleave'd each turn, but that also means fewer attacks per turn. The wizards are never doing infinite damage in one turn, because only so many of them are within range.

b) Searing Spell is going to be an issue. A human conjurer can have both Searing Spell and Metamagic School Focus at level 1, giving them access to Searing Lesser Orb of Fire. This ignores SR and fire resistance, allows no save, and still deals half damage to fire-immune targets. If a target dies from hit-point damage (I believe there's an effect or two that lets you ignore how many hit points you have for the duration) then infinite of these guys can kill it.

c) The best way, in my mind, for someone with only levels in fighter to survive this is to not be targetable. I don't know how it works off the top of my head, but wasn't there a build for some TO challenge or the like that involved using WBL and the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook to make an impenetrable mobile fortress? Some sort of trick that lets you deal some amount of damage without being an option to be attacked yourself is the only way I see the "fighter" (I believe the class used for the fortress I mentioned was commoner, so those fighter class features aren't saving the day here) winning.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 07:31 PM

I tried to hunt for effects that could disable the fighter on a failed save.

Cloud of Bewilderment / Nauseating Breath / Stinking Cloud / etc (nauseated)
Cobra's Breath (Con damage; poison) [Tainted blood gives immunity to poison, iirc]
A number of spells do entangling, so we need Freedom of Movement.
Glitterdust / Pyrotechnics/etc (Blinded)
Sanctuary (cannot attack caster; only lasts for 1 round/level, so really only delays it while you kill all the other wizards)
Spell Vulnerability (reduces SR by 1/caster level, max reduction 15)
Thin Air (1 point of ability damage due to altitude sickness)

We need immunity to nauseated and ability damage from things that are not items, and we need SR high enough that Spell Vulnerability can't overcome it.

A few things that came to mind reading this thread.

a) Wizard density affects some strategies. Yes, you have infinite wizards in infinite squares, but that doesn't mean that every square has a wizard in it. For an example, take our universe: infinite space, infinite matter, more space than matter. Infinities are weird like that. However, this cuts both ways. Lower wizard density means fewer of them getting Cleave'd each turn, but that also means fewer attacks per turn. The wizards are never doing infinite damage in one turn, because only so many of them are within range.

I think we can probably assume a wizard in every square for the purposes of this exercise, or else there aren't really infinite wizards.

b) Searing Spell is going to be an issue. A human conjurer can have both Searing Spell and Metamagic School Focus at level 1, giving them access to Searing Lesser Orb of Fire. This ignores SR and fire resistance, allows no save, and still deals half damage to fire-immune targets. If a target dies from hit-point damage (I believe there's an effect or two that lets you ignore how many hit points you have for the duration) then infinite of these guys can kill it.

Searing Spell doesn't ignore fire resistance. It does 1d8 fire damage, so we need fire resistance 5 to be immune to the half-damage orb.

JNAProductions

2021-01-28, 07:37 PM

Searing Spell doesn't ignore fire resistance. It does 1d8 fire damage, so we need fire resistance 5 to be immune to the half-damage orb.

Think we're looking at different Metamagics. Searing Spell is a +1 Slot Level Metamagic that causes a [Fire] spell to do double damage to [Cold] creatures and still deal half damage to fire-immune creatures.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 07:41 PM

Think we're looking at different Metamagics. Searing Spell is a +1 Slot Level Metamagic that causes a [Fire] spell to do double damage to [Cold] creatures and still deal half damage to fire-immune creatures.

Yes, we're looking at the same one. The person I replied to said it caused the spell to ignore fire resistance; it does not. It causes the spell to ignore fire immunity. Therefore, having fire resistance 5 in addition to fire immunity lets us ignore a searing lesser orb of fire.

Gusmo

2021-01-28, 07:56 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 08:05 PM

I read searing spell as ignoring fire resistance, even if the target also has fire immunity. Regardless, you're better off going for some form of total damage negation like delay death and some ability that allows you to act normally.

I suppose if you read it as two clauses, it would ignore fire resistance. In that case... a Flaming Shield helps a little bit (half damage), but it will be dispelled. We're probably better off using a Spellblade there, and blocking LOE to the spellblade from the dispel magics.

Wildstag

2021-01-28, 08:13 PM

Troll Blooded (feat) converts all but acid or fire damage into nonlethal.

Half Undead (template) negates all nonlethal damage (LA+1)

Fire subtype gives immunity to fire damage, save for Searing Spell (spell level +1). Because it raises the spell level, wizards can't effectively use this at level 1.

Tainted Blood (template) grants immunity to acid (LA+1)

High enough SE grants immunity to SR: Yes spells

That leaves SR: No spells that target a save to disable in some way.

Are we assuming templates or just a simple level 20 fighter? Because once you put level adjustments on it, it's just an ECL 20 Fighter, not a Fighter 20. Otherwise, we could just say that

And then at that point, you lack Half-Undead and Tainted Blood, which means the Fighter just drops unconscious eventually and is susceptible to lethal damage. Kinda assumed the whole thought experiment assumed Human 20 and Human 1, not Templated Human and Templated Human Wizard.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-28, 08:17 PM

Aleax fighter with himself as his singular enemy? He could pay an erudite psion to manifest soul crystal for a few powers, including (greater) humanoid essence, psionic dominate, fusion, and astral seed, then use the resulting soul crystals in that order to dominate his aleax, fuse with it, and manifest astral seed, then kill himself or allow himself to be killed. When he comes back, he's his own aleax, with himself as his singular enemy. Now the wizards can't touch him. Not directly, at least.

Of course, this requires quite a bit of manifesting from powers that fighters don't get, so...

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 09:28 PM

Are we assuming templates or just a simple level 20 fighter? Because once you put level adjustments on it, it's just an ECL 20 Fighter, not a Fighter 20. Otherwise, we could just say that

And then at that point, you lack Half-Undead and Tainted Blood, which means the Fighter just drops unconscious eventually and is susceptible to lethal damage. Kinda assumed the whole thought experiment assumed Human 20 and Human 1, not Templated Human and Templated Human Wizard.

The OP said a level 20 fighter; this is an ECL 20 character with only fighter levels. So allowing for Spellblade for the Lesser Orb, that leaves SR: No spells that target a save to disable in some way.

That I've seen, that leaves:

Cloud of Bewilderment / Nauseating Breath / Stinking Cloud / etc (nauseated)

A number of spells do entangling, so we need Freedom of Movement.

Thin Air (1 point of ability damage due to altitude sickness)

Spell Vulnerability (reduces our SR by up to 15)

Voidmind grants immunity to ability damage as well as scaling SR.

A ring of Freedom of Movement under lead gauntlets to block LOE could solve freedom of movement.

Strong Stomach, a feat, can solve nausea.

I think we need a second spellblade for Spell Vulnerability, so that means we're dual wielding (not hard for a fighter 15)

So we have a:

Free'd Voidmind Tainted Blood Half-Undead (Gheden) Human (LA+5) [Immunity to poison/acid/ability damage/ability drain/energy drain/mind-affecting/fear/confusion/nonlethal damage)
15 Fighter levels
The fire subtype (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit; immunity to fire, save for Searing Spell)
One weapon with Spellblade: Lesser Orb of Fire (blocking avenues for Searing Spell)
Troll-Blooded/Strong Stomach as feats (immunity to non-acid/fire damage, immunity to nausea)
A Ring of Freedom of Movement (immunity to entangled/grapple)
Daazzix's Vest (+5 to our 25 SR, making it inpenetrable for these folks at SR30)
One weapon with Spellblade: Spell Vulnerability (blocking ways to weaken our SR)
A thick lead-lined body suit to block LOE to any of our gear from Dispel Magic (protecting our Spellblades, ring, and vest)

That leaves us to bludgeon the wizards to death at our leisure, as I don't think they have the means to damage the fighter. The fighter can eat the wizards for sustinence, and doesn't need to sleep by RAW, although a Wakeful Mind graft would negate the need for sleep entirely.

With that said, the alternative was to TP out of range and snipe them from outside of long range, but I'm not sure if that works, as you'll have an infinite number of wizards flying after you... You'd still need to be immune to all this stuff unless you could guarantee they'd never catch up somehow.

Edit: Notably, the entire build falls apart if the wizards are level 2, as they could then have the ranks to take Energy Substitution/Searing Spell with Acid Splash. There's no coming back from an infinite number of those coming your way.

liquidformat

2021-01-28, 09:33 PM

Spellbook it's self costs 15 GP. Level 0 scrolls cost 12.5 GP each (19 total in core so ~237.5 GP) and you start with 3-7 level 1 spells (well +5 INT is possible, but unlikely), with a scroll cost of 25 GP each (so 75-175 GP), which makes the cost of the scrolls + the empty book about 327.5~427.5 GP. I will admit I was wrong with my quick math in my head and I did forget about potential bonus spells from int.

Alternately there is a fee of 50 GP per spell level to copy a spell into a book. This gives us our spell book a "value" of 640-840 GP if you paid someone to copy the spells off them, or a max of 1252.5 GP if you had to pay for the scrolls first then a copying fee for 19+7 spells. Even so I'm not sure if you could charge 100% market value for said book making it's actual selling value somewhere between 213.75 to 626.25 GP for a core wizard with 18 INT assuming like most things it sells for half price. Admittedly you could afford 1 charge of a level 4 spell for each wizard, if you could somehow convince someone to buy NI books full of random level 0-1 spells with the copying fee included.

Not sure where you got that 2.2k GP number from.

Hum looked earlier and thought the spellbook was 10gp must have looked at the wrong line. I am getting it here. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellsandBorrowedSpellbooks ) The important part is the following:
"Space in the Spellbook
A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.

Materials and Costs
Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page."

I wasn't even thinking of the cost of acquiring each spell if we factor everything in 19 0 level spells (2,137.5gp), 3-7 first level spells(375-875) and the book that's 2,527.5-3,027.5gp if the spells are from scrolls. Also this can go up even higher if you are including all 0 level spells I think there are 30 and if you have Collegiate Wizard you get 6 +int mod first level spells...

Ugh every time I think about the cost of a first level wizard/archivist it always bugs me. Hands down they are the most expensive classes. If the actual cost of a spellbook was factored in no one could be a wizard before level 3 or 4... Note to self next time playing in a sandbox as a rogue rob all the first level wizards and sell their spellbooks...

AvatarVecna

2021-01-28, 10:49 PM

Yes, we're looking at the same one. The person I replied to said it caused the spell to ignore fire resistance; it does not. It causes the spell to ignore fire immunity. Therefore, having fire resistance 5 in addition to fire immunity lets us ignore a searing lesser orb of fire.

A searing spell is so hot that it ignores the resistance to fire of creatures affected by the spell, and affected creatures with immunity to fire still take half damage.

Searing Spell has two effects on a fire spell, simultaneously (which is what "and" means).

1) The spell ignores the creature's fire resistance.

2) The spell ignores the creature's fire immunity, although a normally-immune target takes half normal damage.

Giving fire resistance to a fire elemental doesn't make them more resistant to Searing Spells.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-28, 10:51 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 11:02 PM

Searing Spell has two effects on a fire spell, simultaneously (which is what "and" means).

1) The spell ignores the creature's fire resistance.

2) The spell ignores the creature's fire immunity, although a normally-immune target takes half normal damage.

Giving fire resistance to a fire elemental doesn't make them more resistant to Searing Spells.

Fair enough; looks like we're relying on a Spellblade to block the only applicable SR: No fire spell available, then. Energy Substitution isn't available at level 1, so we should only have to worry about Lesser Orb of Fire, thankfully.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-28, 11:25 PM

Fair enough; looks like we're relying on a Spellblade to block the only applicable SR: No fire spell available, then. Energy Substitution isn't available at level 1, so we should only have to worry about Lesser Orb of Fire, thankfully.

Human Wizard with two flaws is looking at four feats to choose. That could be Favored, Primary Contact, Energy Substitution, and Searing Spell. Getting metamagic school focus on top of that isn't generally feasible, though.

I say "generally" because you can technically buy items that replicate individual feats, even if those feats have prereq feats that you're not buying on their own. There's also items that definitely do things like that (an armor enchantment granting the mobility feat even if you don't have dodge, for example). Of course, such an item would be fairly expensive - 10000 base price, +5000-10000 per prereq. From a certain perspective, infinite wizards have infinite money, so they should be able to buy it. But from another perspective, pooling their resources like that (and frankly, buying things in general) is itself questionable for this challenge - on top of the fact that even DMs who are generally comfortable with custom items tend to balk at the rules for buying feats.

But also, if the wizards are able to pool their resources like that and be allowed to buy custom items, then of course the fighter is going to lose because the other side has infinite money. Money can buy spellcasting and while it's not the most efficient way to become a powerful spellcaster, if you've got infinite money then you've got infinite casting. That's part of why I'm not really putting much stock in the strategies that involve buying a bunch of wands: none of them can afford that on their own, so if we're letting them pool resources like that, may as well take it a teeny bit further and buy a whole bunch of Rings Of Three Wishes. Now instead of infinite lvl 1 wizards, we've got infinite CL 17 Wishes.

EDIT: Oh and naturally, that same strategy would be just as viable for the "infinite fighters vs 1 big wizard boi" fights. I mean I guess if the wizard is pulling enough cheese to effectively have infinite resources too, then it's a draw? But I think if the big guy is cheesing that much, the fighter 20 could do that as well. Get a ring of three wishes himself and start up a wish loop, and now both sides have infinite power and nothing matters.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 11:31 PM

Human Wizard with two flaws is looking at four feats to choose. That could be Favored, Primary Contact, Energy Substitution, and Searing Spell. Getting metamagic school focus on top of that isn't generally feasible, though.

I didn't know we were including flaws, as they're more of a variant-thing, right? I don't think there's any anwer if we include flaws. I guess if we get the fighter a burrow speed, they could win initiative and immediately sink into the ground to block LOE from everything, and call it a draw from there. Is there a level 3 or lower spell that lets a wizard gain a burrow speed, or attack someone to whom they don't have LOE or LOS?

The infinite wealth thing is a valid point, and probably something we should hand-wave for the purposes of the discussion because, as you said, it makes the exercise rather pointless. Maybe the wizards are all unwilling to share their WBL for one reason or another.

Edit: I suppose we could make the fighter incorporeal and have them attack from out of the ground. They have to be adjacent, and the wizards can prepare an action to attack them or cast spells at them... Maybe combine incorporeality with greater invisibility? Then the only wizards that would be able to see to take their prepared action would be those who have a wand of see invisibility or something. Then again, there's an infinite amount of wizards with those wands, so every wizard will have see invisibility active soon enough... An incorporeal fighter should be able to draw, at least, as the wizards probably can't kill him if he never attacks.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-28, 11:41 PM

I didn't know we were including flaws, as they're more of a variant-thing, right? I don't think there's any anwer if we include flaws. I guess if we get the fighter a burrow speed, they could win initiative and immediately sink into the ground to block LOE from everything, and call it a draw from there. Is there a level 3 or lower spell that lets a wizard gain a burrow speed, or attack someone to whom they don't have LOE or LOS?

The infinite wealth thing is a valid point, and probably something we should hand-wave for the purposes of the discussion because, as you said, it makes the exercise rather pointless. Maybe the wizards are all unwilling to share their WBL for one reason or another.

Honestly I think a lot of the arguments about things are kinda assuming the fighter has no way to heal, which seems like a bad assumption to me. There's infinite wizards, sure, but they don't have infinite range, and most effects aren't utterly impossible to avoid, so the fighter will only have to deal with so many per round even if he's letting the enemy target him - another bad assumption. Somebody earlier mentioned fighter having items for permanent flight and invisibility, combined with enough range and ammo to engage the wizards while the wizards can't engage back, and that's honestly a really good strategy. Heck, even just invisibility would majorly cut down on how many effects he has to deal with per round - not only because they have to guess what square he's in, but he gets 50% miss chance. With only so many wizards able to shoot him at once, and only so many of those able to hit him at once, and only so many of those able to damage him at once, even just Fast Healing 1 will do wonders. To say nothing of if he flies way up in the sky beyond the range of even long range spells, still invisible, and just starts shooting them with an infinite-ammo bow.

I think in general: if the fighter is built for fighting this particular fight, then the wizards aren't capable of engaging the fighter without sharing WBL. And if the wizards are pulling item shenanigans of that scale, the fighter can too, which makes it a draw. If the fighter isn't built for taking on an arbitrarily high number of weak enemies, though, then he's in for a bad time.

As far as the burrow speed thing goes, we have a dumber way to cut off LoE/LoS: the invisible tower shield trick.

Gruftzwerg

2021-01-28, 11:52 PM

One of us is missing something here. Acid resistance does not help against the 1D3 searing fire damage. To my knowledge, only effects that cause fire to heal you or total damage immunity can effectively combat spells enhanced with searing metamagic. Probably better for the fighter to go for total damage immunity.

I missed the no SR part sorry. Still imho not that hard to come by.

Even when assuming maximum density: each square has a wizard
1. Increase touch AC that the wizards need natural 20 to hit = 4,75%chance for normal hit and a 0,25%chance for a crit

2. the range of Acid Splash is close (25ft) which would be a 11x11 cube around the fighter = 120 wizards who can attack the fighter per turn. This results in average 6 hits per turn for average 2 damage each = ~12 dmg per round.

3. Take Martial Stance: Martial Spirit to heal 2hp for each hit. Go for the TWF feat line with a Longsword and a Whip. We have 7 attacks who are all much likely to hit against lvl1 wizards (only 5% misschance due to natural 1). 7x2= +14hp healed per turn. And we haven't even assumed any (greater) Cleave attacks yet. Use a Water Whip from MIC (+1, does lethal dmg and works against armored enemies).

4. Be dragonblooded (e.g. Silverbrow Human or Deepwyrm Half-Drow and take Draconic Aura: Vigor. If the wizards should have a hit streak and we somehow should fall below half max hp, we get up to +4 fast healing.

The fighter can consistently heal himself more than the wizards can damage him. This is still true even with lesser density and the wizards standing out of his threatened area (results in lesser hits taken per turn. A single hit from the fighter + Draconic Aura still results in up to +6hp per turn. again not counting in Cleave).

Is there any way to get:
infinite range
infinite line of sight
ranged attack on every enemy you can see

If you can get all three, you got this.
Not as pure fighter and not before epic lvls as far as I know.

But as sidenote, there are builds that can make this happen:
Bloodstorm Blade 2 + Whirlwind Attack + Distant Shot (epic)

You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range.
2 lvls in BSB give you the abilities to throw any melee weapon and let the attack count as a melee attack back (enabling things like Whirlwind, Charge...). If you wanna see some optimized builds for this idea, have a look a my Shivering Tornado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) and ShurikeNado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?526875)builds (the latter doesn't mention the epic Distant Shot feat iirc, but works an the same base and thus can qualify for that).
Push your spot modifiers and you have pretty much what you are asking for I guess. Note that Whirlwind only targets your enemies, so no friendly fire here.

Calthropstu

2021-01-28, 11:52 PM

Calthropstu

2021-01-28, 11:55 PM

I missed the no SR part sorry. Still imho not that hard to come by.

Even when assuming maximum density: each square has a wizard
1. Increase touch AC that the wizards need natural 20 to hit = 4,75%chance for normal hit and a 0,25%chance for a crit

2. the range of Acid Splash is close (25ft) which would be a 11x11 cube around the fighter = 120 wizards who can attack the fighter per turn. This results in average 6 hits per turn for average 2 damage each = ~12 dmg per round.

3. Take Martial Stance: Martial Spirit to heal 2hp for each hit. Go for the TWF feat line with a Longsword and a Whip. We have 7 attacks who are all much likely to hit against lvl1 wizards (only 5% misschance due to natural 1). 7x2= +14hp healed per turn. And we haven't even assumed any (greater) Cleave attacks yet. Use a Water Whip from MIC (+1, does lethal dmg and works against armored enemies).

4. Be dragonblooded (e.g. Silverbrow Human or Deepwyrm Half-Drow and take Draconic Aura: Vigor. If the wizards should have a hit streak and we somehow should fall below half max hp, we get up to +4 fast healing.

The fighter can consistently heal himself more than the wizards can damage him. This is still true even with lesser density and the wizards standing out of his threatened area (results in lesser hits taken per turn. A single hit from the fighter + Draconic Aura still results in up to +6hp per turn. again not counting in Cleave).

Not as pure fighter and not before epic lvls as far as I know.

But as sidenote, there are builds that can make this happen:
Bloodstorm Blade 2 + Whirlwind Attack + Distant Shot (epic)

2 lvls in BSB give you the abilities to throw any melee weapon and let the attack count as a melee attack back (enabling things like Whirlwind, Charge...). If you wanna see some optimized builds for this idea, have a look a my Shivering Tornado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) and ShurikeNado (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?526875)builds (the latter doesn't mention the epic Distant Shot feat iirc, but works an the same base and thus can qualify for that).
Push your spot modifiers and you have pretty much what you are asking for I guess. Note that Whirlwind only targets your enemies, so no friendly fire here.

Aren't there races and templates that give la -1?

Doctor Despair

2021-01-28, 11:56 PM

Honestly I think a lot of the arguments about things are kinda assuming the fighter has no way to heal, which seems like a bad assumption to me. There's infinite wizards, sure, but they don't have infinite range, and most effects aren't utterly impossible to avoid, so the fighter will only have to deal with so many per round even if he's letting the enemy target him - another bad assumption. Somebody earlier mentioned fighter having items for permanent flight and invisibility, combined with enough range and ammo to engage the wizards while the wizards can't engage back, and that's honestly a really good strategy. Heck, even just invisibility would majorly cut down on how many effects he has to deal with per round - not only because they have to guess what square he's in, but he gets 50% miss chance. With only so many wizards able to shoot him at once, and only so many of those able to hit him at once, and only so many of those able to damage him at once, even just Fast Healing 1 will do wonders. To say nothing of if he flies way up in the sky beyond the range of even long range spells, still invisible, and just starts shooting them with an infinite-ammo bow.

I think in general: if the fighter is built for fighting this particular fight, then the wizards aren't capable of engaging the fighter without sharing WBL. And if the wizards are pulling item shenanigans of that scale, the fighter can too, which makes it a draw. If the fighter isn't built for taking on an arbitrarily high number of weak enemies, though, then he's in for a bad time.

As far as the burrow speed thing goes, we have a dumber way to cut off LoE/LoS: the invisible tower shield trick.

But there's an infinite amount of wizards with wands of Fly, and an infinite amount of wizards with See Invisibility. That puts a damper on the "fly away and snipe" plan, as an infinite amount of wizards can be the targets of these spells, then fly up and send an infinite amount of SR: No spells at the fighter (or shoot an infinite amount of crossbow bolts at the fighter).

Gruftzwerg

2021-01-28, 11:58 PM

Aren't there races and templates that give la -1?

IIRC there was something like that. But that doesn't help us out here. Because a BSB build ain't a pure fighter anymore..

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 12:15 AM

Here's a damper on Supreme Cleave; it's not a feat. It's a class feature. We'd need a two-level dip into Master Samurai, or a three-level dip into Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom/Knight Protector, so even the ability to take 10 on an attack roll doesn't help fighters here.

Is there a way to get an infinite amount of movement per turn as a fighter? We could probably use the Overrun rules to deal with wizards if we purchase a mount. If we go first in initiative, we can overrun an infinite amount of wizards, getting an infinite amount of hoof attacks with the Trample feat that seem to occur independent of an attack routine, meaning that nat 1s won't stop our overrun attacks. That only works if we never run out of movement, however, and I'm not aware of any way to achieve that.

I was trying to see if there was anything we could do with bullrushing, but I can't find anything helpful. I was imagining bullrushing one wizard into the wizard behind him, into the wizard behind him, and so on, dealing damage to each... but the only effect I can find with regard to this is knocking the creature behind the first wizard prone.

Gusmo

2021-01-29, 12:23 AM

FauxKnee

2021-01-29, 12:25 AM

I didn't know we were including flaws, as they're more of a variant-thing, right?

Even if you don't allow for flaws, there are rules in the Fiendish Codex II that allow characters to sell their souls for various benefits. IIRC there are two kinds of pacts they can make, for either seven points or nine points worth of benefits. I'm AFB but I think a bonus feat costs four points. It's conceivable that some nonzero proportion of the infinite level 1 wizards had the opportunity to sell their souls and received two bonus feats that way.

Harrow

2021-01-29, 01:08 AM

I didn't think of it when I started reading this thread, but the talk of healing makes me wonder: is the fighter considered to have "lost" if he dies? That feels a little arbitrary for a 20th level character, considering how easy resurrection can be. On one hand, it feels more appropriate for dealing with a 20th level character to not have them count as lost until they can no longer fight, which may mean killing them multiple times, possibly in specific ways to make rezzing more difficult. On the other, if the wizards can pool their resources, they can pay for infinite items to bring themselves back from the dead, which means the fighter can't win. But on the other OTHER hand, I don't think the wizards should be pooling resources at all, so I guess I'm in the camp of "death shouldn't be the end for the fighter if he can pay for a way around it"

AvatarVecna

2021-01-29, 01:49 AM

It seems like at level 20, consistent success on DC 30 autohypnosis checks (act normally at negative HP) should be easy to achieve. So if you can get some sort of reliable effect that allows you to not be dead at -10 and beyond, that's probably the best way to remove hit points as a concern.

continuous "delay death" in an item - although it doesn't protect from SoDs, or the "if this takes target below 0 HP" effect of disintegrate, for example. Notably, Autohypnosis is the best combo for Delay Death, because most methods of acting below 0 HP either specify that your actions are still limited in some regard, specify that it works between -1 and -9 HP, or both. Epic Autohypnosis does neither. It's a trained-only skill though, so a +30 item wouldn't suffice - you'd need at least 1 actual rank, which is slightly more problematic than if most any other skill allowed for this kind of shenaniganery.

One defensive option that might be pretty worthwhile: make a crit-fisher with a bodyfeeding weapon. On a crit, you gain temp HP equal to half the damage dealt - note, not the damage taken, the damage dealt. I'm sure a fighter 20 could easily be taking a full PA tradeoff and still never miss. They don't stack with each other, but...

Assuming Str 34 (16 base, 2 race, 5 lvl, 5 tome, 6 item), pounce, and leap attack, a +5 bodyfeeder kaorti resin falchion crits 2 times in 7 attacks, for 8d4+332 damage. It'll absolutely annihilate whatever wizard just got targeted, but it'll also give the fighter a sizeable chunk of THP as an additional layer of defense against the litany of spells coming his way.

Quentinas

2021-01-29, 08:11 AM

Reading this let me think something
The winning condition is : The fighter can kill at least each type of wizard buffed by a wand without problem , combined with The fighter can't lose to any wand spell and The fighter can't lose for the passing time and (The fighter is immune to damage of physical weapon (maybe magical) or the fighter regain infinite hit points each round) one of these two last condition

So the question would be
Are there any level 4 or lower spell that can buff a wizard and that they are not counterable by any means of the fighter? Example could be invisibility countered by see invisibility and so on, fly countered by being able to fly or a ranged weapon , dimension door countered with high movement or a ranged weapon. These are examples

Can the fighter be immune to any spell casted by a wand ? The solution here would be a continuos item of globe of invulnerability , that can't be dispelled on a (let'say the maximum money of a wizard is 500 to let this be easy) 30 dispel check with dispel magic (a wand with a single charge of dispel magic cost 3*caster level *15 so a wand CL 10 with one charge could be possible ) or a way to be immune to infinite dispel magic to we can't lose our globe of invulnerability so that we would be immune to any attack

The third condition is essential as if we assume that the infinite wizard aren't renowed each round (so we assume an extremely high number of wizard and a fighter) each round we kill some wizards is going forward to our objective of killing infinite wizard , but to doing that we need to being immune to aging hunger fatigue and so on , the easiest way here would be necropolitan for me , but maybe there are other solution as we need the next points

Being immune to damage or regenerating infinite life is essential as the wizard have crossbow and could have even a melee weapon so against infinite attack we need to be impossibile to be hit , being able to take 0 damage (or non lethal damage) from every attack, or regaining life each round so the wizard couldn't kill us (they will need a good roll at the end)

These are the point that need to be fulfilled , without thinking at anything else. If this fighter in an finite amount of time (the maximum age of these wizard) can resist he win

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 10:37 AM

But there's an infinite amount of wizards with wands of Fly, and an infinite amount of wizards with See Invisibility. That puts a damper on the "fly away and snipe" plan, as an infinite amount of wizards can be the targets of these spells, then fly up and send an infinite amount of SR: No spells at the fighter (or shoot an infinite amount of crossbow bolts at the fighter).

As said upthread wand of fly is out of the question unless the wizards are selling their spellbooks or pooling funds. Because of that you are leaving a large amount of wizards completely ineffective at least half the wizards are useless since both fly and see invisibility need to be cast on a wizard to be useful. Also at that point said wizard is left to a casting of 1 first level spell and 3 0 level spells (assuming they didn't sell their spellbook in order to pull of this trick). Most of the up post spell suggestions are based on second level spells which are already out since all the wizards burned their money on see invisibility and fly wands. Heck half the wizards sold their spellbooks and are already as good as defeated since they can't cast spells or do anything else.

In this situation if we choose our fighter's race as raptoran with the level 8 fighter substitution level and Air Heritage already has him at 80 for the fly speed compared to the 60 from fly spell so the raptoran just has to avoid all the wizards for a minute and the fighter will have won because at that point he can simply pelt the wizards with arrows from far above...

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 10:45 AM

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 10:52 AM

We had said no wealth-pooling, but a wizard selling their spellbook can afford a third level wand, as you said. As a non-zero amount of wizards will do this, an infinite amount of wizards have 3rd level wands.

again my point stands, if an infinite amount of wizards sell their spellbooks for fly wand then an infinite number of wizards have lost as they have made themselves useless. By this logic the fighter wins by default since an infinite number of wizards have no meaningful way to make any contribution to the fight.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 10:56 AM

again my point stands, if an infinite amount of wizards sell their spellbooks for fly wand then an infinite number of wizards have lost as they have made themselves useless. By this logic the fighter wins by default since an infinite number of wizards have no meaningful way to make any contribution to the fight.

Selling your spellbook doesn't mean you've lost; it means you don't have a spellbook. They can meaningfully contribute to the fight by slinging Dispel Magics around, or casting Fly, or other potent 3rds. Even if they lost the wands, they can contribute by shooting crossbow bolts or making unarmed strikes. Even if we take for granted that they've lost (which I definitely wouldn't), an infinite amount of wizards didn't sell their spellbook.

Kaouse

2021-01-29, 11:34 AM

If 3rd Party Pathfinder was allowed, then the Impossible Warrior (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/impossible-warrior) Fighter archetype would be perfect for this. By level 18+, they can parry pretty much any spell, even AoE ones!

This archetype can also be stacked with the War Hero (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/war-hero) archetype, which gives the Fighter access to a few War Sphere totems (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/war#toc61) as extraordinary heroic auras. This includes stuff like Blood Totem, which reduces all damage done to the Fighter (and any allies in his aura) by up to 5 points at level 20, and also deals equivalent retaliatory damage to the enemy. This, happens to be enough to completely negate the damage from singular magic missiles.

Scourging Totem can be used to consistently deal 10 elemental damage (fire/cold/acid/electric) in up to a 60 ft AoE, which is not insignificant vs level 1 characters. Invigorating Totem can be used to give the Fighter 5 temp hp every round, up to a max of 20 temp hp. Neither of these two totems take an action once active.

These two archetypes can also be stacked with Runesinger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/runesinger), which gives you access to Runes, on top of Expert progression with Spheres of Might. The latter being the most important part, of course. With Spheres of Might, you can gain stuff like Alchemy Sphere formulae for healing, condition removal, even battlefield control and such.

More over, you can gain access to stuff like the Barrage Sphere, which has the Legendary Talents of Cone of Death and Death Blossom, which can get you the ability to attack everything within up to Long Range, which is about 1200 ft, with enough investment. All you need is an infinite ammo hack, which is fairly easy to do at level 20 (endless ammunition is a weapon special ability in pathfinder, after-all).

I'm not sure about the logistics of "infinite" enemies, but they have to reach you somehow, and level 1 is a long way from easy access to teleportation. If they have to physically travel that distance, then they'll be mowed down long before they can approach.

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 01:05 PM

Selling your spellbook doesn't mean you've lost; it means you don't have a spellbook. They can meaningfully contribute to the fight by slinging Dispel Magics around, or casting Fly, or other potent 3rds. Even if they lost the wands, they can contribute by shooting crossbow bolts or making unarmed strikes. Even if we take for granted that they've lost (which I definitely wouldn't), an infinite amount of wizards didn't sell their spellbook.

I think you are missing the problem here. Raptoran fighter focused on ranged attacks and initiative with two feats to flight to get a flight speed 80 so he can out run any wizard using the fly spell and a ring of invisibility, and lets say targetteer variant to pickup hide/move silently.

Given the fact that spot and listen aren't class skills for wizards and even if you get them through feats you are going to have a hard time possibly impossible time trying to use them to find a invisible fighter with maxed hide/move silently. So that means to contribute meaningfully each wizard must have see invisibility, flight, and some form of attack to have a meaningful ability to cause any sort of threat to our fighter. Single wand charges are... 15 gp * spell level * caster level. So a 4th level wand with a single charge would be 420 gp, A single 3rd level charge, 225, A single 2nd level, 90. So one casting of See invisibility is 90gp and fly is 225gp, likewise dispel magic is 225gp for a total of 540gp.

There is some debate on what a spellbook of a first level wizard is worth as the sunk cost of creating one is 100gp*the number of 1st and 0 level spells+15gp (ignoring the price of procuring said spells to somehow copy into the book). But this doesn't represent the price someone would buy the spellbook for since it would always qualify as a 'borrowed spellbook'. I don't know of any RAW price of spellbooks but I think the price might be between ~300gp as Zancloufer said. Having only 420gp to work with puts having two level 3 spells out of reach so no see invisibility+fly+dispel which leaves see invisibility+fly+ something else. I think a level 20 fighter can get enough AC/DR/fast heal to make a wizard attacking with melee or ranged weapons trivial and ruling them out as a threat. Which leaves the wizards with just enough money to have a wand with one casting level 2 spell or a few castings 7 castings of a 1st level spell.

Wildstag

2021-01-29, 01:34 PM

As said upthread wand of fly is out of the question unless the wizards are selling their spellbooks or pooling funds. Because of that you are leaving a large amount of wizards completely ineffective at least half the wizards are useless since both fly and see invisibility need to be cast on a wizard to be useful. Also at that point said wizard is left to a casting of 1 first level spell and 3 0 level spells (assuming they didn't sell their spellbook in order to pull of this trick). Most of the up post spell suggestions are based on second level spells which are already out since all the wizards burned their money on see invisibility and fly wands. Heck half the wizards sold their spellbooks and are already as good as defeated since they can't cast spells or do anything else.

In this situation if we choose our fighter's race as raptoran with the level 8 fighter substitution level and Air Heritage already has him at 80 for the fly speed compared to the 60 from fly spell so the raptoran just has to avoid all the wizards for a minute and the fighter will have won because at that point he can simply pelt the wizards with arrows from far above...

Two quick nitpicks, but the wizards would have more than 1 first level spell if we assume that they actually have more than an 11 in Intelligence, since a 12 would automatically give them that bonus spell.

With this plan, the Raptoran fighter would need to have a greater range increment than a heavy crossbow. Since a roll of a 20 is an automatic hit, if he's within the range of a heavy crossbow, the blade of blood shenanigans still mean that the fighter would lose in one round, even with DR 10 (which is generally the highest you see pre-epic). The footbow has a shorter range increment than a heavy crossbow, so some additional options will need to be taken so the Fighter can out-range the wizards.

And I still hold that even if you bring other races into this, the clarification should be whether this is assuming an ECL 20 Fighter or a Fighter with 20 levels in their class. Because the immunity to damage build posted earlier in here (immune to nonlethal and fire and acid) could hold water if the assumption is ECL20 and not Fighter20.

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 01:42 PM

Two quick nitpicks, but the wizards would have more than 1 first level spell if we assume that they actually have more than an 11 in Intelligence, since a 12 would automatically give them that bonus spell.

With this plan, the Raptoran fighter would need to have a greater range increment than a heavy crossbow. Since a roll of a 20 is an automatic hit, if he's within the range of a heavy crossbow, the blade of blood shenanigans still mean that the fighter would lose in one round, even with DR 10 (which is generally the highest you see pre-epic). The footbow has a shorter range increment than a heavy crossbow, so some additional options will need to be taken so the Fighter can out-range the wizards.

And I still hold that even if you bring other races into this, the clarification should be whether this is assuming an ECL 20 Fighter or a Fighter with 20 levels in their class. Because the immunity to damage build posted earlier in here (immune to nonlethal and fire and acid) could hold water if the assumption is ECL20 and not Fighter20.

The biggest issue facing the wizards is aiming at an invisible flying target with even just maxing hide and move silently would make it questionably impossible for the wizards to even know where to shoot...

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 02:06 PM

I think you are missing the problem here. Raptoran fighter focused on ranged attacks and initiative with two feats to flight to get a flight speed 80 so he can out run any wizard using the fly spell and a ring of invisibility, and lets say targetteer variant to pickup hide/move silently.

Are there spells that increase flyspeed at level 3 or lower? If not, then getting a high enough fly speed could work. I think all teleportation that has a reasonable range is higher level...

... Actually, and this is kind of hilarious, there's a bard spell that is the bane of us moving away. We have to be able to stay at least 100 feet further away , as an infinite amount of wizards being teleported by the G'Elsewhere Chant means that every square within 100 feet in all directions will be filled with flying wizards after their first round. Fortunately, I think they only get one good use of that for those that won't pass off their wands, so providing we can prevent actual wizard casting/crossbow bolts from getting to us, we can use the flystrat to avoid all but those wizards holding this wand.

... That is, of course, assuming the wizards don't have access to ANY spells that would increase their flyspeed to equal ours.

Given the fact that spot and listen aren't class skills for wizards and even if you get them through feats you are going to have a hard time possibly impossible time trying to use them to find a invisible fighter with maxed hide/move silently.

You don't have hide in plain sight as a fighter, so you can't actually hide; it's a flat 20 to see you (plus or minus size modifiers and distance modifiers), so an infinite amount of wizards will see you, sadly. An infinite amount of wizards can cast See Invisibility on an ally, so the invisibility doesn't help us much here. I suppose we can technically rely on hiding behind an invisible tower shield...

Having only 420gp to work with puts having two level 3 spells out of reach so no see invisibility+fly+dispel which leaves see invisibility+fly+ something else.

They can cast it on each other, and as there's an infinite amount of them, there's an infinite amount of flying, see invisibility wizards -- ACTUALLY, See Invisibility is a personal spell, unlike what I remembered. That's significant, as it means the only folks who will see us from more than 90 feet away (assuming the invisibility negates their roll, we need a further +9 to negate those with max ranks (maybe they got it as a class skill from an ACF or a feat?) and 18 wisdom) will be those with only regular wizard spells to use or crossbows.

I think a level 20 fighter can get enough AC/DR/fast heal to make a wizard attacking with melee or ranged weapons trivial and ruling them out as a threat. Which leaves the wizards with just enough money to have a wand with one casting level 2 spell or a few castings 7 castings of a 1st level spell.

If there's an infinite amount fo wizards damaging us, no amount of AC/fast healing will help. DR could be helpful depending on the source, of course.

Harrow

2021-01-29, 02:40 PM

If there's an infinite amount fo wizards damaging us, no amount of AC/fast healing will help. DR could be helpful depending on the source, of course.

There may be infinite wizards, but only a finite amount are within range to attack/deal damage at any given time.

That aside, there seems to be some contention around how much a wizard could sell their spellbook for. I'm of the mind that the wizards should be hot off the press, fresh from character creation with no chance to sell their spellbooks before the start of the fight, but not everyone agrees with that, so, in the spirit of debate, the SRD has the following to say,

Selling a Spellbook

Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.

A first level wizard's spellbook contains,

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.

The first list I could find of all 0 level spells had 36 for wizards, plus the 3 free starting spells of 1st level, plus 1 per point of Intelligence bonus. 18 base + 2 racial + 2 age gives us a score of 22 at level 1, for a bonus of +6, or a total of 45 pages filled out at level 1, which could be sold for 2,250 gold.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 03:02 PM

There may be infinite wizards, but only a finite amount are within range to attack/deal damage at any given time.

That aside, there seems to be some contention around how much a wizard could sell their spellbook for. I'm of the mind that the wizards should be hot off the press, fresh from character creation with no chance to sell their spellbooks before the start of the fight,

Iirc wizards start with 3d4x10 gold, so up to 120 gold, meaning they'd only be able to get level 1 spells. I think that's an easy win for the fighter.

but not everyone agrees with that, so, in the spirit of debate, the SRD has the following to say,

A first level wizard's spellbook contains,

The first list I could find of all 0 level spells had 36 for wizards, plus the 3 free starting spells of 1st level, plus 1 per point of Intelligence bonus. 18 base + 2 racial + 2 age gives us a score of 22 at level 1, for a bonus of +6, or a total of 45 pages filled out at level 1, which could be sold for 2,250 gold.

I suppose at this point we should also discuss the rule (guideline?) that a character shouldn't have an item worth more than half their WBL, right? If we apply that here, technically they get no wands at all, but if we use half total wealth, that brings their 2370 (spellbook + starting wealth) down to 1185... Still enough to get level 4 spells, of course. That makes it a lot harder for the fighter, and I'm not sure there's an easy winning strategy. Go incorporeal and wait for the wizards to sleep (if they do sleep), then make one strike, then try again?

Edit: OK, here's a thought. Can we get a permanent or at-will magical darkness around ourselves? If we are then incorporeal, the wizards probably don't have Ghosttouch on their weapons, and only a finite amount can strike at us even if they do. If we have a Spellblade for Dispel Magic, even if the wizards go first, they won't have LOS to use any spells on us. We'd still have to worry about area of effect spells, of course, but that greatly reduces what we need to worry about

Edit2: I forgot Ebon Eyes is a spell, but the principle holds; we could use some sort of obscuring spell to block LOS

Edit3: OK... A generous reading of God Blooded of Vecna allows us to be immune to See Invisibility. Maybe we combine the two to maintain invisibility? It requires us to be able to cast level 2 arcane spells, so we'd need to take Magical Training (sorcerer), Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, and Sanctum Spell. This lets us trade two of our cantrips up into a heightened cantrip (that counts as a level 2 spell).

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 03:40 PM

The first list I could find of all 0 level spells had 36 for wizards, plus the 3 free starting spells of 1st level, plus 1 per point of Intelligence bonus. 18 base + 2 racial + 2 age gives us a score of 22 at level 1, for a bonus of +6, or a total of 45 pages filled out at level 1, which could be sold for 2,250 gold.

A full spellbook is worth 5000gp, meaning it can be sold for 2,500gp normally. So a spellbook with 45 spells worth 2,250gp can net us 1,125gp.

I suppose at this point we should also discuss the rule (guideline?) that a character shouldn't have an item worth more than half their WBL, right?

If we apply those guidelines technically a wizard shouldn't be allowed to start with a spellbook since it is worth more than 60gp....

In general I am thinking like Harrow and other have said we shouldn't be allowing the can of worms of letting wizards sell their spellbooks.

Randel

2021-01-29, 03:46 PM

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 03:55 PM

Question: Would it be possible for the fighter to use a Decanter of Endless Water to drown all the infinite 1st level wizards? Or at least the ones who don't have waterbreathing or lifeboats due to having sold their spellbooks?

similar idea is the fighter using the bag of stones or caltrops from outside of wizard crossbow range to rain death upon the wizards...

Calthropstu

2021-01-29, 03:57 PM

A full spellbook is worth 5000gp, meaning it can be sold for 2,500gp normally. So a spellbook with 45 spells worth 2,250gp can net us 1,125gp.

If we apply those guidelines technically a wizard shouldn't be allowed to start with a spellbook since it is worth more than 60gp....

In general I am thinking like Harrow and other have said we shouldn't be allowing the can of worms of letting wizards sell their spellbooks.

Please see clarification made to OP.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 04:06 PM

Please see clarification made to OP.

If they haven't sold their spellbook, does that mean you're confirming that have level 1, 1-charge wands?

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 04:10 PM

Please see clarification made to OP.

thanks! Then I think a level 20 commoner of a winged race/flying magic item (flying carpet plus ring of sustenance could sleep on the carpet while it hovers outside of the attack range of said wizards) could handle infinite wizards with a endless bag of stones/boulders (can't remember its name). Just fly outside of the crossbow range dropping the boulders down on the wizards until they are all dead...

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-29, 05:01 PM

For future reference, wands of alter self can allow you to fly up to twice as fast, last almost ten times as long, have FAR more applications, and are significantly cheaper than wands of fly.

Mendicant

2021-01-29, 05:25 PM

Who is buying infinite spell books from these wizards? There are finite communities with merchants and every community has a GP limit.

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 05:44 PM

For future reference, wands of alter self can allow you to fly up to twice as fast, last almost ten times as long, have FAR more applications, and are significantly cheaper than wands of fly.

what form is giving you 120 fly speed? I am not even seeing a form that would give 60' fly speed.

Jack_Simth

2021-01-29, 06:42 PM

Please see clarification made to OP.

I find it interesting that in the wiz-20 vs. uncapped fighter-1's scenario, the fighters get normal wealth for a 1st level character, but in this thread, the Wiz-1's get a boost that's way out of line for a 1st level character (standard wand of a 4th level spell has a market price of 21k.

Rynjin

2021-01-29, 08:46 PM

I find it interesting that in the wiz-20 vs. uncapped fighter-1's scenario, the fighters get normal wealth for a 1st level character, but in this thread, the Wiz-1's get a boost that's way out of line for a 1st level character (standard wand of a 4th level spell has a market price of 21k.

Indeed. This is why the Wizards must return to monke and just pelt him with rocks.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-29, 08:56 PM

I find it interesting that in the wiz-20 vs. uncapped fighter-1's scenario, the fighters get normal wealth for a 1st level character, but in this thread, the Wiz-1's get a boost that's way out of line for a 1st level character (standard wand of a 4th level spell has a market price of 21k.Go ahead and give the fighters some wands.

So should I laugh now, or...

Vhaidara

2021-01-29, 09:16 PM

I do think everyone has forgotten one important thing with your reliance on magic items. Infinite wizards with infinite wands of dispel magic means

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
The fighter no longer has any magic items with a caster level below 16 (Druid wand of Dispel magic is a 4th level spell, minimum caster level 7)

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 09:25 PM

I do think everyone has forgotten one important thing with your reliance on magic items. Infinite wizards with infinite wands of dispel magic means

The fighter no longer has any magic items with a caster level below 16 (Druid wand of Dispel magic is a 4th level spell, minimum caster level 7)

The Troll-Blooded tank route doesn't rely on magical items

The fly-away strat presumably starts with a medium-range teleport to create distance, and the fighter would remain out of range of dispel magic forever more.

On the subject of methods to kill the wizards: is there an efficient way we could start the wightpocalypse? Without Cleave cheese, that's probably the fastest way to clear out the wizards.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-29, 09:27 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 09:36 PM

Without access to higher-level wands I'm pretty sure the fighter takes this, unless we're doing that trick where wizards leapfrog their way into 9th lvl spells. Getting enough SR, ER, range, ammo, and flight isn't difficult.

Yeah, if the wizards are stuck with level 1s, it's indisputably the fighter's game. The wizards don't have a way to deal with the fighter teleporting up, then raining arrows down on them from outside of long range. If we're allowing the wizards flaws and/or those pact insidious feats, the Troll-Blooded feat build doesn't work (as we established earlier), so I think the flight is the best route regardless.

noob

2021-01-29, 09:39 PM

I believe there is a truenaming ability that allows to get complete concealment at will but which is acquired automatically by having the right amount of ranks in truespeech and a bunch of feats and other requirements that might be fillable by a fighter.
Is it possible for a fighter to get that ability and then be way harder to target?

Doctor Despair

2021-01-29, 09:44 PM

NichG

2021-01-29, 10:16 PM

liquidformat

2021-01-29, 10:32 PM

noob

2021-01-29, 11:41 PM

Not really the reigning build right now is flying archer sit outside of medium range raining arrows down on the wizards...

Which is countered by total concealement and I do not know if it is doable or not with truenaming as a fighter.
Oh sorry I believed you were talking about the level 1 wizards firing back with arrows.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-29, 11:47 PM

Hmm. If the 1st level wizards all get wands, how about the 1st level fighters get +1 weapons?

I honestly don't think it'll change anything.

Doctor Witch

2021-01-29, 11:53 PM

How many wizards would be able to get line of effect on you is the question that needs to be answered. Especially if you're small.

I'm sure I'm wrong here, but shouldn't a gnome with vow of poverty and the saint template (plus feats) mostly be able to tackle this? Immunity to acid, cold, electricity and petrification. 10/evil DR, 15 resistance to fire and sonic. It's also got Freedom of Movement plus 10 fast healing. Also, free action lesser Globe of Invulnerabilty, 20 ft calm emotions aura and the weapon shattering thing. Is there a feat to widen an aura?

I'm sure the most learned among us could shore up the rest with just a few feats, or a different race, to get spell resistance and whatever else is needed.

Using non-lethal damage and VoP for no magic items, except for inherent bonuses, would earn a style bonus for humiliation.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-30, 01:12 AM

Hail of Stone is a Lv1 Wizard spell, SR: No, Saving Throw: None, AOE spell (Cylinder 5ft radius, 40ft high), that does 1d4 points of untyped damage per CL up to 5d4 and has Medium range.

So if the Fighter doesn't get to have custom magic items but only stuff in the book, that's a pretty annoying thing to counter if you lose initiative.

With custom magic items, always-on Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is 56kgp, so at that point its Fighter vs Commoners.

You don't need custom magic items, you just need a range advantage and unlimited ammo. +1 Composite Longbow of Distance, 8700 gp (+whatever mighty you need). Wings Of Flying, 56000 gp. Helm Of The Hunter, 9000 gp. Bracers Of Aerial Combat, 5000 gp. Quiver Of Plenty, 18000 gp.

For 96700 gp (+mighty costs), you have a continuous 60 ft fly speed, continuous feather fall, unlimited ammunition, and a max range of 3300 ft (so even an Enlarged Long Range spell needs CL 32 to hit you), and you're still attacking at +12/+7/+2/-3 (assuming Dex 10 and literally no feats or items helping besides those listed) vs whatever mediocre AC a first level wizard has. But since they can't fight back, and you have infinite ammo, your attack bonus doesn't matter - you'll get them all eventually with nat 20s.

EDIT: Heck, a good deal of that is just me being paranoid about wizards cheesing their spell range, but Hail Of Stone is only Medium range to begin with. Wings Of Flying, Quiver Of Plenty, and a masterwork composite longbow will run you 74400 gp, and that has a max range of 1100 ft. Enlarged Hail Of Stone would still need CL 43 to hit that, and that's with zero range increment shenanigans.

NichG

2021-01-30, 01:17 AM

Not really the reigning build right now is flying archer sit outside of medium range raining arrows down on the wizards...

You don't need custom magic items, you just need a range advantage and unlimited ammo. +1 Composite Longbow of Distance, 8700 gp (+whatever mighty you need). Wings Of Flying, 56000 gp. Helm Of The Hunter, 9000 gp. Bracers Of Aerial Combat, 5000 gp. Quiver Of Plenty, 18000 gp.

For 96700 gp (+mighty costs), you have a continuous 60 ft fly speed, continuous feather fall, unlimited ammunition, and a max range of 3300 ft (so even an Enlarged Long Range spell needs CL 32 to hit you), and you're still attacking at +12/+7/+2/-3 vs whatever mediocre AC a first level wizard has. But since they can't fight back, and you have infinite ammo, your attack bonus doesn't matter - you'll get them all eventually with nat 20s.

This is more, does the Fighter die before they have a chance to reposition themselves at all. I wouldn't assume that someone fighting an infinite number of something else is going to have the privilege of picking the onset of engagement. More like, okay, the Fighter is standing in one 5ft square. All other 5ft squares contain a Lv1 Wizard. Roll initiative, and you'd better have a modifier+roll that is literally impossible for a 1st level Wizard to beat on a nat 20.

Worse, since Wings of Flying only grant Good maneuverability, you ascend at half speed. So a double vertical move only gets you to 60ft, and the second to 120ft, both of which are still within range of Hail of Stones. So 'immediately ascend' as a strategy here means taking thousands of points of unavoidable damage.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-30, 01:27 AM

AvatarVecna

2021-01-30, 02:11 AM

This is more, does the Fighter die before they have a chance to reposition themselves at all. I wouldn't assume that someone fighting an infinite number of something else is going to have the privilege of picking the onset of engagement. More like, okay, the Fighter is standing in one 5ft square. All other 5ft squares contain a Lv1 Wizard. Roll initiative, and you'd better have a modifier+roll that is literally impossible for a 1st level Wizard to beat on a nat 20.

Worse, since Wings of Flying only grant Good maneuverability, you ascend at half speed. So a double vertical move only gets you to 60ft, and the second to 120ft, both of which are still within range of Hail of Stones. So 'immediately ascend' as a strategy here means taking thousands of points of unavoidable damage.

1) If the Fighter isn't assumed to be specifically prepared for fighting this fight, the wizards can't be either. We can't expect that it just so happens that the wizards closest to the fighter all happened to have Hail Of Stone prepared, or that their specific builds are optimized for dealing with this tactic. Given infinite wizards, it's almost certain that there are wizards somewhere who have both the build, spell prep, and grouping necessary to absolutely decimate the fighter, but the odds that they're the wizards who are in your immediately vicinity are infinitely small.

Admittedly, this issue of preparedness matters more for the wizards than the fighter - a fighter can get some good general-purpose items (flight, a backup bow) and just accidentally invalidate an arbitrarily high percentage of random wizards, but if the wizards don't have very specific spells prepared (along with the builds necessary to leverage them properly), they're kinda screwed if they're depending on the right wizard builds being in the right place. From a certain perspective, is it fair to say the wizards get at least a 15 minute headstart to prep their spells for the day?

2) You can run with any movement speed, so you get 120 ft up with your first round of movement even with the half-ascension, or 150 ft with the Run feat, although I didn't include that in that quick summary before so let's ignore it. The fly spell has a specific exception where you're not allowed to run with it, but because this item isn't explicitly continuous fly, that's not relevant here.

3) Cylinder spells move down from the point of origin, not up. The bottom of the fighter's feet are 120 ft up, so you'd need to place the origin point at least 125 ft off the ground, and 3.5 uses diagonals that approximate the right distance, unlike some other editions. That means even the wizards who were directly adjacent to him prior to takeoff are going to need at least CL 3 (again, assuming he doesn't have the run feat). The max I've been considering so far is CL 6, so you could get an Enlarged Hail Of Stone with 320 ft range - enough that even running with a Ring Of Solar Wings won't quite get you out of range in the first round, although that build is gonna be specific enough that it's leaning on "too convenient" to have a pile of wizards with such a build right around the fighter, even assuming both sides are allowed to prepare for this specific fight...and assuming that the prepared fighter is still not allowed to leave the ground until after initiative is rolled, but whatever, the wizard team gets a 15 minute headstart, sure.

4) An item granting some kind of teleportation effect could do the trick, although the core ones conflict with some of the presented item slots so you'd need to shuffle some things around (probably change out the helm of the hunter for a helm of teleportation, since we don't really need far shot to out-range the wizards).

All of that being said, even assuming full-blown Teleport to be as far up as you need to be, that doesn't matter if we lose initiative and get pelted by every wizard within 100 ft, so we either need an absolutely absurd initiative bonus, some way to make the vast majority of those wizards not even know where to target HoS, or a globe of invulnerability effect. I can reach +20 for a Wizard 1 (albeit one with a build so awful he probably can't cast any spells), so fighter needs to hit +40 initiative to not get immediately destroyed. Continuous Leser GoI effect can definitely be done as a custom item, but it'd be nice to find one as an already existent item. If we're assuming wizards have convenient builds, though, it's not unfair to say that the Fighter might have decent-ish UMD despite it being cross-class and a wand of Lesser Globe Of Invulnerability, although without at least 1 round of prep time for the fighter, that still means we have to tangle with the initiative issue.

EDIT: Adjusted init from +19 to +20, forgot a +1 that could be applied.

NichG

2021-01-30, 02:30 AM

1) If the Fighter isn't assumed to be specifically prepared for fighting this fight, the wizards can't be either. We can't expect that it just so happens that the wizards closest to the fighter all happened to have Hail Of Stone prepared, or that their specific builds are optimized for dealing with this tactic. Given infinite wizards, it's almost certain that there are wizards somewhere who have both the build, spell prep, and grouping necessary to absolutely decimate the fighter, but the odds that they're the wizards who are in your immediately vicinity are infinitely small.

Admittedly, this issue of preparedness matters more for the wizards than the fighter - a fighter can get some good general-purpose items (flight, a backup bow) and just accidentally invalidate an arbitrarily high percentage of random wizards, but if the wizards don't have very specific spells prepared (along with the builds necessary to leverage them properly), they're kinda screwed if they're depending on the right wizard builds being in the right place. From a certain perspective, is it fair to say the wizards get at least a 15 minute headstart to prep their spells for the day?

I'm assuming the Fighter builds for the encounter and the Wizards build for the encounter, but neither side gets to choose their point of entry or positioning. If we don't assume anyone builds for the encounter, I don't think that favors the fighter, given that then things like the teleport item, GoI item, etc are all off the table or worse, have to be determined randomly in the same fashion as the 'wizards have random spellbook contents' from the original post.

2) You can run with any movement speed, so you get 120 ft up with your first round of movement even with the half-ascension, or 150 ft with the Run feat, although I didn't include that in that quick summary before so let's ignore it. The fly spell has a specific exception where you're not allowed to run with it, but because this item isn't explicitly continuous fly, that's not relevant here.

3) Cylinder spells move down from the point of origin, not up. The bottom of the fighter's feet are 120 ft up, so you'd need to place the origin point at least 125 ft off the ground, and 3.5 uses diagonals that approximate the right distance, unlike some other editions. That means even the wizards who were directly adjacent to him prior to takeoff are going to need at least CL 3 (again, assuming he doesn't have the run feat). The max I've been considering so far is CL 6, so you could get an Enlarged Hail Of Stone with 320 ft range - enough that even running with a Ring Of Solar Wings won't quite get you out of range in the first round, although that build is gonna be specific enough that it's leaning on "too convenient" to have a pile of wizards with such a build right around the fighter, even assuming both sides are allowed to prepare for this specific fight...and assuming that the prepared fighter is still not allowed to leave the ground until after initiative is rolled, but whatever, the wizard team gets a 15 minute headstart, sure.

4) An item granting some kind of teleportation effect could do the trick, although the core ones conflict with some of the presented item slots so you'd need to shuffle some things around (probably change out the helm of the hunter for a helm of teleportation, since we don't really need far shot to out-range the wizards).

All of that being said, even assuming full-blown Teleport to be as far up as you need to be, that doesn't matter if we lose initiative and get pelted by every wizard within 100 ft, so we either need an absolutely absurd initiative bonus, some way to make the vast majority of those wizards not even know where to target HoS, or a globe of invulnerability effect. I can reach +19 for a Wizard 1 (albeit one with a build so awful he probably can't cast any spells), so fighter needs to hit +39 initiative to not get immediately destroyed. Continuous Leser GoI effect can definitely be done as a custom item, but it'd be nice to find one as an already existent item. If we're assuming wizards have convenient builds, though, it's not unfair to say that the Fighter might have decent-ish UMD despite it being cross-class and a wand of Lesser Globe Of Invulnerability, although without at least 1 round of prep time for the fighter, that still means we have to tangle with the initiative issue.

I'm willing to grant that if the Fighter can guarantee that they win Initiative then they negate the Hail of Stones ambush. I'm not even sure they need to fly to do it at that point. So I think that's what it really comes down to. Is there any way to trigger a Belt of Battle outside of your turn?

AvatarVecna

2021-01-30, 03:29 AM

I'm assuming the Fighter builds for the encounter and the Wizards build for the encounter, but neither side gets to choose their point of entry or positioning. If we don't assume anyone builds for the encounter, I don't think that favors the fighter, given that then things like the teleport item, GoI item, etc are all off the table or worse, have to be determined randomly in the same fashion as the 'wizards have random spellbook contents' from the original post.

I think it does favor the fighter, but mostly because the fighter can counter the wizards with fairly general tactics, while the wizards need something rather particular in order to stand a chance against the fighter. It's not unreasonable to think that any given Fighter 20 who isn't a complete freaking idiot will have an item giving him a fly speed (probably fly speed 60 ft), and even if he's a meleer he'll have a backup bow - probably not hank's bow or a quiver of plenty unless he's a dedicated archer/switch-hitter, though. An item giving a moderate amount of SR isn't a huge ask for a nigh-epic fighter, and just by virtue of being a fighter he's going to have enough AC/Saves that most 1st lvl spells just can't do much to him in the first place. I'm gonna be assuming an archer fighter, though.

Honestly, a general fighter who isn't starting out surrounded by infinite wizards takes this, but we end up having to get pretty freaking specific if he starts out surrounded by them, just so he doesn't get immediately destroyed by a few thousand HoS castings.

I'm willing to grant that if the Fighter can guarantee that they win Initiative then they negate the Hail of Stones ambush. I'm not even sure they need to fly to do it at that point. So I think that's what it really comes down to. Is there any way to trigger a Belt of Battle outside of your turn?

Short of some serious/custom item shenanigans I don't see us hitting +40 initiative - and if those are allowed, then continuous GoI can be gotten and we don't need big initiative. As far as activating the belt outside your turn...it takes swift actions, not immediate actions, so that's almost certainly a no. Immediate actions that give us action economy advantages are what we're looking for, but we can't use them while flat-footed, so we're going to need a way besides initiative to not be flat-footed. Uncanny Dodge won't cut it, that just lets you keep your Dex bonus while flat-footed, it doesn't undo the condition. Hrm...come back to it since I don't have answer currently.

Activating a command item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item’s power duplicates.

...

Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell stored on the scroll and provokes attacks of opportunity as spellcasting does.

...

Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores, but activating the item doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

Okay so here's the deal about initiative:

Either we need Init +40 to guarantee that we beat all the wizards, or we need a way to ignore the action limits of the flat-footed condition and a Wand Of Celerity, in order to activate either a Wand of lesser GoI, or an item giving us a teleportation effect.

ben-zayb

2021-01-30, 04:39 AM

Fighter has access to Leadership, right? Definitely not in the spirit of the challenge, but that opens up 9th level spells/powers.

How would Dragonwrought Kobolds on both sides change the game? This opens up stuff like Epic Leadership, Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, Improved Combat Reflexes, Distant shot, Damage Reduction (stackable), Energy Resistance (stackable), etc.

Jack_Simth

2021-01-30, 10:15 AM

Go ahead and give the fighters some wands.

So should I laugh now, or...
Hmm. If the 1st level wizards all get wands, how about the 1st level fighters get +1 weapons?

I honestly don't think it'll change anything.
You're making fun of it, but you're both missing the point: Infinite Wizard-1's with a wands of 4th or lower could largely be replicated by Rogue or Bard-1's with UMD. Other than "Doesn't need to roll a check to use the wand", what does the Wizard chassis actually bring to the table, comparatively speaking? There's a reason almost everyone is focusing on the wands in the wizard builds. The fighter-20 isn't taking on wizards, he's taking on an arbitrary list of 4th level (and lower) spells (possibly with metamagic) and an action economy problem.

Additionally: Cross class UMD is a thing. Two ranks with a Charisma of 8 means each fighter has a 10% chance of successfully activating the wand on a given round. With infinite fighters, that's still an arbitrary list of 4th level and lower spells. The Wiz-20 can probably still manage, but it's much harder. If we use a different disposable item (Candle of Invocation, perhaps - 8,400 gp, less than the cost of a 3rd level wand), then unless built specifically to deal with such things, the Wiz-20 dies to Wish spam (as does essentially everything else). But then, it's not a Wizard-20 vs. Fighter-1's, it's a Wizard-20 vs. Wish spam.

But that's the point: With that kind of boost, it's not (Wizard or Fighter)-20 vs. infinite (Fighter or Wizard)-1's. It's (Wizard or Fighter)-20 vs. Infinite number of <magic item> in the hands of folks who can use it. Which is a completely different ball of wax.

I do think everyone has forgotten one important thing with your reliance on magic items. Infinite wizards with infinite wands of dispel magic means

The fighter no longer has any magic items with a caster level below 16 (Druid wand of Dispel magic is a 4th level spell, minimum caster level 7)
This is more, does the Fighter die before they have a chance to reposition themselves at all. I wouldn't assume that someone fighting an infinite number of something else is going to have the privilege of picking the onset of engagement. More like, okay, the Fighter is standing in one 5ft square. All other 5ft squares contain a Lv1 Wizard. Roll initiative, and you'd better have a modifier+roll that is literally impossible for a 1st level Wizard to beat on a nat 20.

Worse, since Wings of Flying only grant Good maneuverability, you ascend at half speed. So a double vertical move only gets you to 60ft, and the second to 120ft, both of which are still within range of Hail of Stones. So 'immediately ascend' as a strategy here means taking thousands of points of unavoidable damage.

Both of these are part of why I specified permanent invisibility and some teleportation. Gives him a round to get out of range of such. Ring of Invisibility mostly does the job for invisibility (especially if the command word is in Drow Sign or some such, which really, all Rings of Invisibility should do anyway for practical reasons of command words and stealth), and a simple Cape of the Monteback puts the Fighter-20 at long range.

On the subject of methods to kill the wizards: is there an efficient way we could start the wightpocalypse? Without Cleave cheese, that's probably the fastest way to clear out the wizards.

Standard method is to use some form of negative level, and wait. Wand and cross-class UMD could do the job.

Asmotherion

2021-01-30, 11:15 AM

20th level fighter vs infinite 1st level wizards armed with wands.

There lies your answer. No matter how fast the Fighter can mow them down he can never win.

Exactly. In this scenario, even if the wizards cast a lowly lv1 magic missile, they'll end up winning by the end of the turn; infinite numer means infinite damage.

For this calculation to have a base, we need to establish some real ground rules, like "how many finite wizards are we talking about" and "what kind of build the fighter has access to". Also, "does he have access to Tome of Battle?" and "what magic items does he have on his person?" because those makes all the difference in the world.

A rough estimation for me is, 10 lv1 Wizards will barelly pose a challenge, while the sheer amount of number of 100 Wizards will be more or less a deadly challenge to our fighter. Thus, around 50 level 1 wizards are an interesting challenge, provided they don't use stuff like Circle Magic.

This takes into account a Brooch of Shielding or a way to cast Shield as an SLA for the fighter, a high enough touch AC so that he won't be completelly helpless against touch attacks, and probably the Combat Reflexes feat line, so that he can remove from the combat a significant amout of them in the first turn. Chances are he's going to be first in the initiative, and thus able to go close enough. In one round, with a +10 Dex (a resonable average, without relying on cheese), he can take out 14 wizard, or 17 with two weapon fighting. Great Cleave effectivelly can mean that for every 1 Wizard you can take out 3 (4 if you're surrounded, but let's keep in to a good number for averaging) thus 43 Wizards by the end of the round, or 51 if two weapon fighting, effectivelly winning the battle. However this needs optimal positioning to work, and assumes all wizards are withing 5 feet of each other. A halfing of those numbers round down (21 and 25) gives us a realistic number of how many opponents the fighter will get out in round one. By this time he's going to have to deal with aproximatelly 25d6 of damage.

The seccond turn then begins. It's unrealistic to assume the Wizards won't have noticed positioning can help them win, so for this theoretic encounter, let's remove the benefits of Great Cleave this round. We'll assume 14 Wizards perish, as they are now further away from each other. This leves 11 Wizards able to attack. 11d6.

The whole scenario also assumes none of the Wizards use Nerveskitter, which could move the initiative order. It also assumes all the wizards do is cast Blasting spells in order to have easyer calculations.

Realistically, the Fighter wins, but not before suffering a lot of damage. Non-damaging spells cast by some of the wizards could easyly affect the battle a million of ways, and actually make the encounter impossible to win (Illusions, or all of them dealing massive Stat Damage for example).

Ultimatelly, this is more of a rough calculation, and a battle as small as 50vs1 could really go either way, when magic is involved.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-30, 12:02 PM

Infinite wizards still each take up finite space and have finite range so only so many can engage in any given round. They can deal quite a lot of damage if the fighter isn't taking so good precautions, but they can't deal infinite.

NichG

2021-01-30, 12:27 PM

For reference, there's about 1500 within Medium range if densely packed on a featureless 2d plane, so the HoS ambush caps out at 6000 damage with 3750 average if no one moves, and a fair bit more if the wizards can exchange places at their full move speed. If this takes place in 3d in some gravity-less space, it's much worse.

So being able to tank 4k damage would also solve it. Also every point of initiative advantage over the average wizard -10 reduces this by 5% on average (though variance between attempts is high since the Fighter only gets one roll)

liquidformat

2021-01-30, 12:30 PM

Exactly. In this scenario, even if the wizards cast a lowly lv1 magic missile, they'll end up winning by the end of the turn; infinite numer means infinite damage.

No it doesn't, even with infinite first level wizards they are limited to being on the ground and only a finite number are capable of attacking the fighter in any given round. Hence why flying, invisibility, and maybe teleportation is so important for the fighter. Being able to move out of range of all wizards means the Fighter has basically won, there are enough options at that point that he can destroy them without the wizards being able to put up a meaningful fight. Even if the wizards have a wand of fly or alter self the highest speed I am seeing for a first level wizard for either of these is 60' hence why I suggested Raptoran.

I do think everyone has forgotten one important thing with your reliance on magic items. Infinite wizards with infinite wands of dispel magic means

The fighter no longer has any magic items with a caster level below 16 (Druid wand of Dispel magic is a 4th level spell, minimum caster level 7)

Again why I suggested Ratoran as the race for the fighter, a ring of invisibility or as said above greater invisibility, with access to move silently as a class skill with max ranks. Starting out invisible just with maxed move silently and no items to boost it (though getting +20 is pretty cheap for a level 20 character) its next to impossible for the wizards to have any idea where you are until you attack at which point you are too far away for it to matter. If some level of prep is allowed the fighter just needs to start invisible and he has won, if not he needs to hit +30 initiative bonus I believe and he has also won.

I'm assuming the Fighter builds for the encounter and the Wizards build for the encounter, but neither side gets to choose their point of entry or positioning. If we don't assume anyone builds for the encounter, I don't think that favors the fighter, given that then things like the teleport item, GoI item, etc are all off the table or worse, have to be determined randomly in the same fashion as the 'wizards have random spellbook contents' from the original post.

I'm willing to grant that if the Fighter can guarantee that they win Initiative then they negate the Hail of Stones ambush. I'm not even sure they need to fly to do it at that point. So I think that's what it really comes down to. Is there any way to trigger a Belt of Battle outside of your turn?
Why are we now moving the goal post, the goal was is there a build or builds that can win against infinite random wizards of first level. Just the fact that we are arbitrarily allowing the wizards to have a wand with up to a 4th level spell is already ridiculous enough now you are moving the goal post to the level 20 fighter is completely randomly build as well...

NichG

2021-01-30, 12:35 PM

Why are we now moving the goal post, the goal was is there a build or builds that can win against infinite random wizards of first level. Just the fact that we are arbitrarily allowing the wizards to have a wand with up to a 4th level spell is already ridiculous enough now you are moving the goal post to the level 20 fighter is completely randomly build as well...

Original post didn't specify a random wand, and I'm not specifying a random Fighter build, so the HoS ambush fits within the original parameters. I'm specifying that the Fighter doesn't get to choose 'approaching the infinite wizards from a flying position out of range' as part of a build.

Rynjin

2021-01-30, 05:52 PM

Flying doesn't matter; the Wizards can just build an infinitely high cheerleader pyramid to gain height.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-30, 06:22 PM

Flying doesn't matter; the Wizards can just build an infinitely high cheerleader pyramid to gain height.

I don't know that they'd be able to do that effectively. First, they'd have to be able to reach the correct spot on the pyramid, so their movement upward is limited by their movement speed. Secondly, they'd definitely have to make SOME sort of skill check for that. Ride? Balance? Climb? Either way, a level 1 wizard may struggle with that. Thirdly, does the wizard have enough strength to carry a second or third wizard? Even in a pyramid, I think you still end up carrying just shy of two people's full weight on you, right? You can carry 2x your max load over your head, so for a 10-strength wizard we'd be looking at 200 pounds (including their own gear). The base weight of a human is 120lbs, so that's too much to make a pyramid with unless all the wizards involved have at least 12 strength. If any of the wizards on the bottom have less than 12 strength, the whole pyramid collapses.

DMVerdandi

2021-01-30, 08:07 PM

If you can switch the build out with a commoner, you aren't testing the strength of the class.
You are testing the strength of items/Templates/races etc.

At best, a 20th level can craft masterwork items.

And also, people are talking about infinite range infinite arrows, infinite cleaves, yaddayadda [things fighters CANNOT natively do]

How far and wide is this place anyway.

For a fair match, if he can't make it, he can't take it.
period.

Otherwise, we are simply testing how capable 20th level wizard crafters are, since the HP/AC of the fighter is inconsequential since if he didn't have any magic items, 20 level one wizards would kill him in between one turn.

20th level wizard crafters are fantastic. They are so good that they blur the lines between a person that is essentially no more difficult to beat than a dinosaur against INFINITE level one people.

the D10, 2 skill points per level, 11 bonus fighter feats thing? Cannot touch em.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-30, 08:12 PM

WBL is a function of leveling. It seems very arbitrary to say the fighter isn't allowed to purchase magical items or permanent spellcasting services.

Elkad

2021-01-30, 08:30 PM

Can we get the fighter a 800' aura that does 10 damage minimum when enemies enter the area?
Then he doesn't have to do anything.

Rynjin

2021-01-30, 08:59 PM

I don't know that they'd be able to do that effectively. First, they'd have to be able to reach the correct spot on the pyramid, so their movement upward is limited by their movement speed.

All Wizards at the bottom need to do is pass another Wizard up the chain, Peasant Railgun style.

Secondly, they'd definitely have to make SOME sort of skill check for that. Ride? Balance? Climb? Either way, a level 1 wizard may struggle with that. Thirdly, does the wizard have enough strength to carry a second or third wizard? Even in a pyramid, I think you still end up carrying just shy of two people's full weight on you, right? You can carry 2x your max load over your head, so for a 10-strength wizard we'd be looking at 200 pounds (including their own gear). The base weight of a human is 120lbs, so that's too much to make a pyramid with unless all the wizards involved have at least 12 strength. If any of the wizards on the bottom have less than 12 strength, the whole pyramid collapses.

They all cast Ant Haul. Also, any DC 20 or lower is guaranteed to succeed.

The next logical step is then for Wizards to begin hanging off other Wizards sideways to create an infinitely large Wizard mecha to fight the Fighter.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-30, 09:10 PM

So via peasant railgun, the wizards can fill every square that exists with wizards; that's a fun bit of tech.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-30, 10:45 PM

How many combinations of 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spells (via Precocious Apprentice) can kill a level 20 fighter if enough wizards are within casting range?

AvatarVecna

2021-01-31, 12:04 AM

And also, people are talking about infinite range infinite arrows, infinite cleaves, yaddayadda [things fighters CANNOT natively do]

1) People aren't talking about infinite range arrows. A standard Composite Longbow straight out of the book can shoot people from up to 1100 ft away. With the far shot feat via item or feat slot, that becomes 1650. Claiming that it's not something fighter can natively do isn't just stupid for saying that Fighter doesn't get WBL, it's also wrong because fighter objectively has a range advantage over a lvl 1 wizard no matter what the wizard's build is.

2) Great Cleave is unlimited, although you can't move between cleave attempts as some people seem to think. If you've got enough melee range you can do pretty well, and if you've got enough speed, some kind of Rapid Blitz + Great Cleave can tear through quite a few wizards per round. But yeah it's not gonna be infinite.

3) To reiterate what was touched on in point 1, saying "WBL doesn't count" is silly.

DMVerdandi

2021-01-31, 12:40 AM

WBL is a function of leveling. It seems very arbitrary to say the fighter isn't allowed to purchase magical items or permanent spellcasting services.
So can the wizards just buy a level 20 wizard's services?
Or a bunch of rings of wish?

It gets dumb real fast.

1) People aren't talking about infinite range arrows. A standard Composite Longbow straight out of the book can shoot people from up to 1100 ft away. With the far shot feat via item or feat slot, that becomes 1650. Claiming that it's not something fighter can natively do isn't just stupid for saying that Fighter doesn't get WBL, it's also wrong because fighter objectively has a range advantage over a lvl 1 wizard no matter what the wizard's build is.

2) Great Cleave is unlimited, although you can't move between cleave attempts as some people seem to think. If you've got enough melee range you can do pretty well, and if you've got enough speed, some kind of Rapid Blitz + Great Cleave can tear through quite a few wizards per round. But yeah it's not gonna be infinite.

3) To reiterate what was touched on in point 1, saying "WBL doesn't count" is silly.
Who's to say the fighter isn't a caveman.
Is a fighter automatically a gucci gear clothes horse?
Because at the same token, what if all the wizards were just level 1 wizards, but were all very old dragons.

Them being dragons has little to no bearing on their might as wizards. them being wizards at that point is a nominal point. What matters is them being dragons.

So, if being a fighter doesn't really matter then it's not a good ratio. No one said magic items had to be for sale. It's just implied that they are. They aren't necessary at all in actuality.
Artificer, THEY have a native hold on making them, and other spellcasters, but the measure of a chef can't be how quickly he can microwave a poptart.

If I want to know how strong a totemist, or a warlock, or a bard, or a swordsage is, NATIVELY, im giving them what they can natively produce. All other accoutrements are essentially DM bonuses. They NEVER have to give you magic items, and one could use the 20th level wealth to buy a castle, or a bribe, or a workshop to smith things.

Just like you never have to run into undead in the game.

Fighter 20 therefore isn't NECESSARILY a bunch of haxx gear. It's 11 feats, and some possible ACF's.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 12:49 AM

So can the wizards just buy a level 20 wizard's services?
Or a bunch of rings of wish?

It gets dumb real fast.

Who's to say the fighter isn't a caveman.
Is a fighter automatically a gucci gear clothes horse?
Because at the same token, what if all the wizards were just level 1 wizards, but were all very old dragons.

Them being dragons has little to no bearing on their might as wizards. them being wizards at that point is a nominal point. What matters is them being dragons.

So, if being a fighter doesn't really matter then it's not a good ratio. No one said magic items had to be for sale. It's just implied that they are. They aren't necessary at all in actuality.
Artificer, THEY have a native hold on making them, and other spellcasters, but the measure of a chef can't be how quickly he can microwave a poptart.

If I want to know how strong a totemist, or a warlock, or a bard, or a swordsage is, NATIVELY, im giving them what they can natively produce. All other accoutrements are essentially DM bonuses. They NEVER have to give you magic items, and one could use the 20th level wealth to buy a castle, or a bribe, or a workshop to smith things.

Just like you never have to run into undead in the game.

Fighter 20 therefore isn't NECESSARILY a bunch of haxx gear. It's 11 feats, and some possible ACF's.

Very very old dragons aren't ECL1. WBL is a function of character level. It gets silly immediately if we deny fighters their only access to magic. The match is also predicated on WBL being available, as the wizards have wands they can't craft.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-31, 01:17 AM

Having items equal to your WBL is the game's default position, and is a estimated representation of the treasure that would be gained as a natural consequence of reaching 20th level. It makes exactly as much sense to assume the fighter has double money from the party artificer taking the fighter's gold and crafting items for the fighter as it makes to assume the fighter has only ever fought enemies with no treasure - what, it's a difference of 100% WBL either way!

DMVerdandi

2021-01-31, 01:24 AM

Very very old dragons aren't ECL1. WBL is a function of character level. It gets silly immediately if we deny fighters their only access to magic. The match is also predicated on WBL being available, as the wizards have wands they can't craft.

Cool.

Can a level 20 commoner beat infinite level 1 wizards with level one wands.

Um yeah bro, does he have all his magical crap on? Fantastic.

there, end the thread.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 01:43 AM

Cool.

Can a level 20 commoner beat infinite level 1 wizards with level one wands.

Um yeah bro, does he have all his magical crap on? Fantastic.

there, end the thread.

I mean, we had several pages of discussion trying to see if magic stuff was enough to do it. Without custom items, the fighter should probably instantly die (number of wizards in range permitting), which pretty much just left the question of flying away. Even then, the peasant rail gun means flying away might not be a viable strategy either. That pretty much just leaves

a.) hoping there won't ever be a large enough concentration of wizards who took flaws or sold their soul to get favored/primary contact/searing spell/energy substitution to actually break through our healing or what have you

b.) Using an incorporeal template, winning initiative, and immediately sinking into the ground

I don't think a works in a world with peasant railguns either, because they can just shuffle all those wizards into range on their initiative...

If we sink into the ground, all the wizards immediately ready actions to attack. There might be something in a build with Spring Attack, all the immunities we had, and some sort of always-on vigor or fast-healing. If the wizards never know where we will attack from, they can't gather all their four-feat-searing-spell friends into one space, so we should be able to go back underground before the wizard's turn on initiative... We'd take damage from their readied actions if there were any Searing Spell wizards in close concentration to one another, but we could heal it back off underground. On the other hand... since it's an infinite amount of wizards, they could just gather all those wizards into one spot, and eventually we would get unlucky with where we popped up and get whacked.

Actually, scratch that, we can enhance armor spikes as weapons too, right? We could do a Spellblade for Acid Splash; then even a flawed wizard can't hit us.

Free'd Voidmind Tainted Blood Half-Undead (Gheden) Human (LA+5) [Immunity to poison/acid/ability damage/ability drain/energy drain/mind-affecting/fear/confusion/nonlethal damage)
15 Fighter levels
The fire subtype (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit; immunity to fire, save for Searing Spell)
One weapon with Spellblade: Lesser Orb of Fire (blocking avenues for Searing Spell)
Troll-Blooded/Strong Stomach as feats (immunity to non-acid/fire damage, immunity to nausea)
A Ring of Freedom of Movement (immunity to entangled/grapple)
Daazzix's Vest (+5 to our 25 SR, making it impenetrable for these folks at SR30)
One weapon with Spellblade: Spell Vulnerability (blocking ways to weaken our SR)
Armor spikes with Spellblade: Acid Splash (blocking Searing Spell/Energy Substitution)
A thick lead-lined body suit to block LOE to any of our gear from Dispel Magic (protecting our Spellblades, ring, and vest)

Anyway... To circle back to the post I'm replying to, yeah, eventually the answer might be "Yes, the fighter can win." But that's also the question the thread was asking, so... I'm not sure why you're so disappointed with that.

Rynjin

2021-01-31, 02:59 AM

But anyway, the discussion is somewhat pointless, ain't it? Because eventually it just turns into a single level 20 Fighter vs infinity level 20 Wizards.

In the infinite vastness of infinite spacetime, some subset of infinite Wizards will try any idea. That means somewhere in the infinite plane of infinite Wizards a lesser infinity of Wizards will form a cabal whereupon they kill each other in stages, gaining levels alongside each other and eventually getting enough XP to reach level 20, infinite times.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 03:00 AM

Zancloufer

2021-01-31, 01:57 PM

A few notes on WBL vs Wizard: How unreasonable are some of the items we assume the fighter to have anyway? Our flight item is pretty much common sense, a back up +1 Composite Longbow is dirt cheap and can be quite helpful. Infinite quiver is 18k IIRC so maybe a bit expensive but not out of line. A Force bow might also be reasonable on a switch/ranged fighter. If we want to to get a bit silly a Mantle of spell resistance grants SR 21. Not sure how many fighters would spring 90k for one but it does render our fighter immune to any SR:Yes spell not from a higher level wand. Teleportation is also reasonable, though probably a 1-2 times a day item or a rare consumable, for a wizard to have. Be dodgy for the Wizards to take our fighter down before he becomes and apache attack helicopter and rains death from beyond their reach.

The biggest issue TBH is how silly a Wizard's spell book can get. The exact cost is actually listed (for market sale) at 50 GP per page filled, up to 2.5k GP. That gives us a sale price of 625-825, to a WBL that would average out to ~785 GP, though it could be as high as 935 GP. Either way a level 3 wand is 225 GP per charge and a level 4 wand 420 GP. Either way it is unlikely that we can assume 4th level wizard spells as you generally don't spend more than half your WBL on a single item. Each wizard can still have 3 different level 3 spells to throw out within reason though.
If we assume Wizard WBL madness though a custom item of Lesser Globe isn't beyond reproach. If we assume the Wizard gets CL 5 from their dispel magic wands a CL 14 custom item of Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is only 112k GP. We could get a little cheesy and say our item is also only usable with people who are the same alignment our fighter happens to be and require a specific skill fighter man is proficient in and reduce the cost to ~71K GP.

Is this custom item that stops all level 3 and below spells from effecting the fighter a bit of RAW cheese? Maybe but compared to thousands (millions?) of wizards selling their spell books for a handful of 1 off wands it's like comparing mozzarella to blue cheese.

Eurus

2021-02-01, 11:42 AM

I think WBL is the only reasonable way to answer this question as it was originally posed, especially since it assumes the wizards have wands and are therefore themselves mostly powered by magic items... but I agree that a more interesting question is "does being a fighter help at all".

Well, silly idea, but. An old half-dragon warforged fighter could get Improved Combat Reflexes pre-epic. Take that, plus Robilar's Gambit and Opportunistic Tactician, Troll Blooded and Improved Resilience, and you have potentially infinite movement by looping opportunity attacks against yourself (which you are immune to the damage of).

Now, make those attacks with a +1 Splitting Aptitude Bow. Every opportunity attack you make against yourself becomes two opportunity attacks, meaning that you're quickly making infinite attacks. This means that the chances of ending your chain of attacks by rolling 1s on all of them rapidly approach zero (although it never quite reaches zero).

...Now add in Boomerang Ricochet, so that each of your attacks can bounce to a second target within 5 feet.

Does it actually kill infinite wizards? Well, not exactly. Eventually you'll roll all 1s, but on average your expected gained attacks each cycle are higher than your expected lost attacks, so I don't know enough statistics to calculate these odds. Of course you could manage to roll four 1s in a row on your first turn and end it right there. But let's just say that it has the potential to kill a lot of wizards, possibly enough to clear out a space big enough that you can chill for a round or two before they reach you again.

Upsides: since you need Combat Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Boomerang Ricochet, Robilar's Gambit (BAB +12), Opportunistic Tactician, Toughness, Troll Blooded, and Improved Resiliency, being a fighter and having some bonus feats to work with is a benefit! A commoner can't even qualify for Robilar's Gambit. So I think this is thematically a good choice.

Downsides: It's not super clear how/if Robilar's Gambit with a ranged weapon works, it's not explicitly melee only but you might need Arrow Mind. You still need a way to win initiative, and it might be possible to build some of the wizards in a way that can resist the endless barrage of arrows bouncing off your face. Also, epic feats pre-epic is silly.