Why does Gauntlets of True Strike cost so much in MiC?

[Max Caysey]

When calculating the price using DMG, I find that Gautlets of True Strike should cost a fraction of what it does in MiC... Why is this?

Or more correctly, why are they so expensive?

Its command word activation once per day. That would be: (Spell level x CL x 1800) / (5/1) = ((1x1x1800) / 5) = 360gp

In MiC they are sat at CL 3 for some reason. That still only makes them cost 1080gp!

I don't get it!!!! Why is this?

Thanks!

[Telonius]

I'm guessing they used another item as a benchmark, or just eyeballed it. True Strike is one of those cases where the formulas break down really horrendously. (The mythical "Continuous True Strike" item, for example).

An Eternal Wand (from the very same book) would get you two charges a day, and it costs 820gp.

[Khedrac]

Telonius' example of the eternal wand is most useful here.

Remember the rules for custom magic item pricing are that you look for a similar item first and only fall back on the base formula if there isn't one.

[Telok]

There's also that calculating by bonus comes before calculating by spell slot. That's why bracers of armor cost more than items of continuous shield and mage armor spells. The MIC is looking at the +20 to hit, not the first level spell slot.

[Max Caysey]

Remember the rules for custom magic item pricing are that you look for a similar item first and only fall back on the base formula if there isn't one.

From whence is this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

From whence is this?

DMG page 288, under Creating Wondrous Items:

"Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table 7-33 on page 285 and use the item prices in this chapter as a guideline."

DMG Table 7-33 on page 285 is not RAW, it's a guideline for a DM (not a player) to use when estimating what the price of a given custom magic item should be. If a player wants to create a custom magic item, they tell the DM what they want it to do, and the DM looks at existing items and what the item's effect is to determine how it should be priced. A player proposing the creation of a custom magic item has no business suggesting how it should be priced.


Example: A continuous effect of a 1st level spell with a normal duration of one hour/level would be spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp, for a total price of 2,000 gp for a continuous 1st level spell at caster level 1st. However, if that 1st level spell is Mage Armor, you would need to calculate it based on the effect instead: bonus squared x 1,000 gp, or 16,000 gp for that item.

If a spell grants a numeric bonus for which a price can be calculated based on the bonus, you do it that way. If a spell has a unique effect or makes an attack and there are already similar items, you price it based on those. If a spell has a unique effect or makes an attack for which there's no existing calculation based on the effect, and there are no similar items to compare it to, only then would you price the item based on the spell level x caster level instead.

True Strike grants a numeric bonus so the price needs to be based on the bonus, not the spell level. I feel like that item was printed so there's a RAW argument against using spell level x caster level calculation for an item of True Strike, as there's now a similar effect that you can base a custom item's price off of.

[RNightstalker]

To answer the caster level question, Craft Wondrous Item requires caster level 3rd. Have you seen anything with caster level 1st at all?

[Seerow]

Man I just looked and they even have a standard action activation. I was expecting swift/free action activation to be the factor driving price up (as a 5th level spell use item is much more valuable).

Yeah there's no justification for that cost. Get an Eternal Wand of true strike instead. 800gp, get to use it 2x per day, and it doesn't take up an item slot. (If you want it always available without wasting a hand or action drawing it, spend a couple hundred more gp to get a wand sheath built into your weapon).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To answer the caster level question, Craft Wondrous Item requires caster level 3rd. Have you seen anything with caster level 1st at all?

For anyone doubting this, the DMG errata made this RAW:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel

Caster Level
The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.


If an item requires Craft Wondrous Item, the minimum caster level for that item can't go below 3rd. For something requiring Craft Magic Arms and Armor, that minimum is 5th, for Forge Ring it's 12th, etc. This RAW minimum also applies to custom magic items of those types. This does not apply to potions, scrolls, or wands, as those are detailed prior to the 'other magic items' portion of that.

Yes, there are published magic items that don't follow this rule. When those items are found as loot, their caster level is as-printed, because the designers couldn't be bothered to review and errata every current published magic item. If any magic item is created during play, its caster level is determined by the creator and follows that rule, regardless of the item's published caster level. The published caster level is never a prerequisite for creating an item (the DMG errata removed that). If creating a published item at a higher caster level than that printed, the item's price does not change even if the higher CL makes its effect better, unless the printed price is variable based on caster level (such as for wands, staffs, scrolls, potions, etc.). So a weapon of Speed (printed CL 7) can be created at a caster level of 5th (minimum for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and casting Haste). A Hat of Anonymity in MIC has a printed CL 7 and grants a continuous Nondetection, so creating it at a caster level of 20th would have a higher DC on that without changing its price (but if it's created by an NPC they would likely charge more for it). This is one of the intended benefits of PCs investing in item creation feats.

[Bronk]

When calculating the price using DMG, I find that Gautlets of True Strike should cost a fraction of what it does in MiC... Why is this?

Or more correctly, why are they so expensive?

Its command word activation once per day. That would be: (Spell level x CL x 1800) / (5/1) = ((1x1x1800) / 5) = 360gp

In MiC they are sat at CL 3 for some reason. That still only makes them cost 1080gp!

I don't get it!!!! Why is this?

Thanks!

You're better off with Gloves of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk instead. 3600g, do the once per day true strike, plus can store small items.

[Calthropstu]

In pathfinder, the rules specifically call out that spell. It does indeed look at "+20 to hit" instead of 1st level spell. Continuous true strike breaks the game at normal item price guidelines.

[Max Caysey]

DMG page 288, under Creating Wondrous Items:

"Wondrous item costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table 7-33 on page 285 and use the item prices in this chapter as a guideline."

I assume this is sequensially listed, so first the table, then comparatively with items that do the same... I assume if that item price seems wack!



Example: A continuous effect of a 1st level spell with a normal duration of one hour/level would be spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp, for a total price of 2,000 gp for a continuous 1st level spell at caster level 1st. However, if that 1st level spell is Mage Armor, you would need to calculate it based on the effect instead: bonus squared x 1,000 gp, or 16,000 gp for that item.

If a spell grants a numeric bonus for which a price can be calculated based on the bonus, you do it that way. If a spell has a unique effect or makes an attack and there are already similar items, you price it based on those. If a spell has a unique effect or makes an attack for which there's no existing calculation based on the effect, and there are no similar items to compare it to, only then would you price the item based on the spell level x caster level instead.

True Strike grants a numeric bonus so the price needs to be based on the bonus, not the spell level. I feel like that item was printed so there's a RAW argument against using spell level x caster level calculation for an item of True Strike, as there's now a similar effect that you can base a custom item's price off of.

Where does it say that you calculate based on price and not on spell level/caster level?


To answer the caster level question, Craft Wondrous Item requires caster level 3rd. Have you seen anything with caster level 1st at all?

Yes, a ring of floating in MiC, page: 123. Forge ring has minimum level of 12, yet a ring CL 1 exist... your argument seems week!



For anyone doubting this, the DMG errata made this RAW:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel

If an item requires Craft Wondrous Item, the minimum caster level for that item can't go below 3rd. For something requiring Craft Magic Arms and Armor, that minimum is 5th, for Forge Ring it's 12th, etc. This RAW minimum also applies to custom magic items of those types. This does not apply to potions, scrolls, or wands, as those are detailed prior to the 'other magic items' portion of that.

Yes, there are published magic items that don't follow this rule. When those items are found as loot, their caster level is as-printed, because the designers couldn't be bothered to review and errata every current published magic item. If any magic item is created during play, its caster level is determined by the creator and follows that rule, regardless of the item's published caster level. The published caster level is never a prerequisite for creating an item (the DMG errata removed that). If creating a published item at a higher caster level than that printed, the item's price does not change even if the higher CL makes its effect better, unless the printed price is variable based on caster level (such as for wands, staffs, scrolls, potions, etc.). So a weapon of Speed (printed CL 7) can be created at a caster level of 5th (minimum for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and casting Haste). A Hat of Anonymity in MIC has a printed CL 7 and grants a continuous Nondetection, so creating it at a caster level of 20th would have a higher DC on that without changing its price (but if it's created by an NPC they would likely charge more for it). This is one of the intended benefits of PCs investing in item creation feats.

Obviously this is not RAW, because there are items, as the ring I mention, that break this rule!




You're better off with Gloves of the Master Strategist from Ghostwalk instead. 3600g, do the once per day true strike, plus can store small items.

Very nice thanks!

[Crake]

In pathfinder, the rules specifically call out that spell. It does indeed look at "+20 to hit" instead of 1st level spell. Continuous true strike breaks the game at normal item price guidelines.

Continuous true strike also just straight up isn't possible because it's a discharged spell. The best you could do is at-will true strike, which is nowhere near as effective.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I assume this is sequensially listed, so first the table, then comparatively with items that do the same... I assume if that item price seems wack!

Where does it say that you calculate based on price and not on spell level/caster level?

Again, RAW the DMG is for the DM to use, not the players. So players don't get to reference any of the magic item pricing guidelines when proposing a custom magic item, end of story.

It says to refer to the table, but to use existing items as a guideline. Pretty much every existing magic item is priced based on its effect, not a spell level x caster level calculation. So when referring to the table, you're meant to default to that section first.



Yes, a ring of floating in MiC, page: 123. Forge ring has minimum level of 12, yet a ring CL 1 exist... your argument seems week!

Obviously this is not RAW, because there are items, as the ring I mention, that break this rule!

Again, that's RAW for creating magic items, including custom magic items. Published items can break that rule and those items can come into play if discovered as loot, but PCs creating magic items must follow the minimum caster level rule.

[tyckspoon]

Continuous true strike also just straight up isn't possible because it's a discharged spell. The best you could do is at-will true strike, which is nowhere near as effective.

Use-activated is usually what's used for this particular attempted cheese, ie, 'every time I swing my sword it casts True Strike on me.'

[RNightstalker]

Yes, a ring of floating in MiC, page: 123. Forge ring has minimum level of 12, yet a ring CL 1 exist... your argument seems week!


I'm not trying to argue, hence I can't have a weAk argument. Besides, the ring of floating is a psionic item, hence different creation rules.

[MR_Anderson]

To answer the caster level question, Craft Wondrous Item requires caster level 3rd.

This is basically the reason behind it, but it is a faulty argument, as the crafter could be a level 20 Druid who gets a level 1 Wizard to contribute the spell and caster level.

We have to remember the books were made by humans. Humans are flawed, but also the DMG gives rough formulas for DM’s to consider.

[aglondier]

In gameplay I found that a diadem (insight being mental) of truestrike having a 5% chance of activating on any particular attack wasn't grossly unbalancing. It meant that it couldn't be relied on, but occasionally allowed the character to absolutely cane something...often a goblin or other lowly grunt...

[Max Caysey]

I'm not trying to argue, hence I can't have a weAk argument. Besides, the ring of floating is a psionic item, hence different creation rules.

If the argument is, that because craft woundrous item requires a minimum level of 3, then all items are minimum level 3 also, then the argument fail as this is not the case with many printet items... Why you think the ring of floating being a psionic item should have anything to do with that, since its the feat that procs the minimum level, I have no clue...

But, I guess the designers are not that consistant... which I guess we have seen many times!

[Eldonauran]

But, I guess the designers are not that consistant... which I guess we have seen many times!
Then, the solution to the problem is to remove the ring in question from the equation, as it is clearly an outlier that does not fit the pattern. Human error is enough to account for its existence. At that point, you move back to the original argument, which remains fully intact and valid.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If the argument is, that because craft woundrous item requires a minimum level of 3, then all items are minimum level 3 also, then the argument fail as this is not the case with many printet items... Why you think the ring of floating being a psionic item should have anything to do with that, since its the feat that procs the minimum level, I have no clue...

But, I guess the designers are not that consistant... which I guess we have seen many times!

Like I said, that wasn't a rule until the DMG errata changed it. They weren't going to go back and review and errata every published item prior to that. Plus some of the game designers may not have gotten the memo on that rules update and kept on making items as though the errata didn't exist. That doesn't make the rule any less valid, and it certainly doesn't mean PCs can ignore it when creating their own magic items.

[ThanatosZero]

If I recall correctly one of the devs once stated, that a item with a continous active True Strike would be handled like a epic weapon in terms of prices, except that it is cut in half, since it doesn't offer a bonus to damage.

A Epic Gauntlet of True Strikes +20 would cost 2,000,000 GP (20x20x1000x10/2) and grants a +20 insight bonus to attacks.

A Non-Epic Gauntlet of Precise Strikes +5 (made up name) would cost 12,500 GP (5x5x1000/2) and grants a +5 insight bonus to attacks.

[Troacctid]

Use-activated is usually what's used for this particular attempted cheese, ie, 'every time I swing my sword it casts True Strike on me.'
Use-activated items that cast a spell use the spell's casting time as the activation time (unless otherwise noted), so this would not work the way you want.