Combining Magic Systems?

[Destro2119]

So recently I have become enamored with the magic system of Spheres of Power, and I also want the versatility of the "upcast" system of PF2e and 5e.

In essence, I wish to combine these magic systems in a way that enhances the OG DnD 3.X/PF spell rules and magic system. How would you do this?

I have a few ideas, like using some of the variant rules from unchained like overclock spells, and also giving minor at wills like SoP does, but specifics elude me at this point.

Any aid you can render is welcomed.

PS: DnD 3.5 Unearthed Arcana has spell points-- yay or nay?

PPS: if there are any other articles addressing this topic, please refer them to me.

[AnimeTheCat]

Well... 3.5 already has something of an "Upcasting" system in the Psionc powers side of the house. You pay more PP (effectively increasing the base cost of the power to that of an equivalent power level, usually) to make a more power stronger. There's no reason that this can't be applied in a similar way to spells, but you do have to be a little creative with it.

As for spheres, I can't speak to it because I have no experience outside of a game I'm currently running in which one player is using Spheres of Might (so not even the magical side). I could speculate, but I feel that won't be constructive.

[gijoemike]

At a look at the d20 game Arcana Unearthed by Monte Cook. Very similar to 3.X. The spells in that game had an upcast version of every single spell. And they also had a downcast version of every spell.


eg. Fireball.

once you were level 5 and had access to Fireball you could use it as a 2nd circle spell for d4/level damage and a smaller radius. Or as a circle 3 spell as standard Fireball. But then at lvl 7 when you had access to 4th circle spells it became better with a larger radius. Build out spells to have heighten and lessen into the spell without extra feats.


The big issue I have with 5th is casters will just sit there and upcast the same spells they had since level 1 or 3. It is boring to watch and play. 3.X encouraged you to vary it up by getting access to better and more diverse spells. The last thing you want to do is remove the diverse options and turn the game into an MMO of ice blast, ice blast, ice blast, etc.

[Destro2119]

Should I scale Spell DC by level or not though? What elements from unchained/SoP should I incorporate? Should I use Spell Points?

[SangoProduction]

The idea of "upcasting," comes from the fact that vancian spells are very binary in their existence. And so they need Lesser and Greater and Whatever versions. Upcasting solves that, for the most part, allowing even starter spells to scale.

The problem with merging that idea with SoP is that... well... SoP is not vancian. There are no spell slots to upcast into. And the magical abilities already scale.

I guess the simplest way to enable "upcasting" is that you spend double the points to have it happen twice? Achieves rocket tag real quick.
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Don't get me wrong. I am not one to discourage your idea. But I don't really know what you are trying to accomplish.

[stack]

In PF2 and D&D5e, damage spells have upcasts because caster level scaling doesn't exist. Your fireball cast from a 3rd level slot never gets better (aside from your DC going up with proficiency/stats). Psionics in 3.PF works similarly, with augmentation costs for increased effects.

You can bundle different levels of certain spells together (dispel magic and greater dispel magic, charm person, mass charm person, charm monster, etc).

You can just use psionics and re-fluff as normal magic, or find an existing magic as psionics adaptation. Or use spell points.

You can hand out reserve feats for free.

You can brew up a whole new magic system that uses upcasting to scale spells and having a spell available gives you an unlimited use minor effect.

You can just use SoP and apply traditions to get closer to classic casting (prepared casting drawback, etc.).

You can mash these ideas together. It depends on how much work you want to do and how much novelty and playtesting your players will stomach.

[StSword]

So recently I have become enamored with the magic system of Spheres of Power, and I also want the versatility of the "upcast" system of PF2e and 5e.

In essence, I wish to combine these magic systems in a way that enhances the OG DnD 3.X/PF spell rules and magic system. How would you do this?

I have a few ideas, like using some of the variant rules from unchained like overclock spells, and also giving minor at wills like SoP does, but specifics elude me at this point.

Any aid you can render is welcomed.

PS: DnD 3.5 Unearthed Arcana has spell points-- yay or nay?

PPS: if there are any other articles addressing this topic, please refer them to me.

Spheres already has spell points baked in.

Spheres ritual magic allows one to emulate the spells from the standard vancian system.

With feats (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/ritual-feats#:~:text=Ritual%20feats%20focus%20on%20the,to %20learn%20and%20use%20them.), a spherecaster can prepare those rituals as spells, costing spell points depending on level.

So it sounds like what you want to do is have spheres as a base, have everyone have those ritual feats.

And well if one wants to prepare an overcast or undercast spell, so be it.

[Destro2119]

In PF2 and D&D5e, damage spells have upcasts because caster level scaling doesn't exist. Your fireball cast from a 3rd level slot never gets better (aside from your DC going up with proficiency/stats). Psionics in 3.PF works similarly, with augmentation costs for increased effects.

You can bundle different levels of certain spells together (dispel magic and greater dispel magic, charm person, mass charm person, charm monster, etc).

You can just use psionics and re-fluff as normal magic, or find an existing magic as psionics adaptation. Or use spell points.

You can hand out reserve feats for free.

You can brew up a whole new magic system that uses upcasting to scale spells and having a spell available gives you an unlimited use minor effect.

You can just use SoP and apply traditions to get closer to classic casting (prepared casting drawback, etc.).

You can mash these ideas together. It depends on how much work you want to do and how much novelty and playtesting your players will stomach.

Reserve feat type system (renaming as core class abilities) might work pretty well.


"You can brew up a whole new magic system that uses upcasting to scale spells and having a spell available gives you an unlimited use minor effect."

Could you or someone else give an example, please?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

As I said when you posted this on r/pathfinder_rpg, Spheres is not designed to coexist with the power and versatility of Vancian casting, and anyway what you're asking is essentially "how do I turn Vancian into Spheres?"

If you must mix magic systems use Psionics (comes with upcasting and point pools) but limit progression to 6th-level powers

[stack]

"You can brew up a whole new magic system that uses upcasting to scale spells and having a spell available gives you an unlimited use minor effect."

Could you or someone else give an example, please?

Examples? Well, I am not personally familiar with any systems that do this, but they may exist. Actually, if you used the word-casting variant from Ultimate Magic and tacked-on at-will effects, you wouldn't be too far off.

Ideally, you would start with a clean sheet of paper, but that is a lot of work. Grouping existing spells into heighten-chains would also be a lot of work.

The basic notion is that you would know or prepare 'fire blast'. Just knowing the spell gives you a (somewhat scaling) fire damage attack. If it is in a 1st level slot, you can cast it for something like burning hands. From a 3rd level slot, you get fireball. If you no longer have it prepared (or are out of slots to cast it from), you lose the reserve-feat-like effect.

Personally, I would just run spheres, using traditions and maybe the ritual feats to get a more vancian feel, because that would be much less work. Or just free reserve feats, if your players want to stay with the familiar.

Note that upcasting only really matters for spontaneous casters; in 5e, everyone is pseudo-spontaneous, so getting multiple tiers of effect off one spell is a big deal since you have relatively tight limits on how many you prep (for prepared casters). In PF2, upcasting doesn't matter to prepared casters, other than taking less space in the spell book.