Where is the Sorcerer Gish?

[Garfunion]

Why hasn’t there been an official sorcerer gish archetype?
Every class has a magical-martial weapon archetype except the sorcerer.

If I had to brainstorm a background story, perhaps the bloodline of the sorcerer has become so thin that they no longer have access to the bloodline traits yet they are still sorcerer. Because of this they have decided to learn weapon combat and have even learned how to blend their magic into a weapon fighting style.

[Avonar]

I really enjoy the Stone Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana, but sadly it is yet to see official printing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It has anywhere from one to five levels of Hexblade Warlock, and whatever sorcerous origin you want.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why hasn’t there been an official sorcerer gish archetype? Because there isn't a need for one. Multiclass Sorcerer/Paladin, there's your gish. (Sorcerers aren't intended to be martials. Granted, if you are looking at Bladesingers, and wondering why there isn't a sub class for sorcerers, I understand the position but don't see an actual problem, and for my money the game could have lived without bladesingers just fine ... )

[Garfunion]

I really enjoy the Stone Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana, but sadly it is yet to see official printing.
I kind of liked that archetype as well but I think that if we’re going to make a gish archetype for the sorcerer they need to stop trying to think of a bloodline origin that represents weapon combat.


It has anywhere from one to five levels of Hexblade Warlock, and whatever sorcerous origin you want.
I’m not looking to multi-class, this question is about a sorcerer archetype only.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m not looking to multi-class, this question is about a sorcerer archetype only. OK, I'll bite. What's wrong with bladesinger? Why does your gish have to be a sorcerer? :smallconfused:

[Garfunion]

Because there isn't a need for one.
There isn’t a need for a lot of archetypes that exist yet they still do. I’m not a fan of multi-classing, which is why I am asking for a weapon combat oriented sorcerer archetype.

[Garfunion]

OK, I'll bite. What's wrong with bladesinger? Why does your gish have to be a sorcerer? :smallconfused:
Because I want them to be. I like the idea of a battle sorcerer. I used to play one in 3.5.

[rlc]

It has anywhere from one to five levels of Hexblade Warlock, and whatever sorcerous origin you want.

Or just stick with hexblade (or paladin). Unfortunately, a martial sorcerer doesn’t really fill as much of a niche as the rest of the martial casters do, even if that niche is just “hitting things, but also casting spells with x stat!”

[Quietus]

Dragon sorcerer for AC and HP, pick up booming blade and green flame blade, use twin and quicken liberally. Ideally with a race that gets a martial weapon you can make use of. Dwarves are great, take heavily armored and use a two handed hammer. Or pick elf and run around with a rapier. Better yet, go unarmed and unarmored, with shadow blade!

[Catullus64]

Every class has a magical-martial weapon archetype except the sorcerer.


You, sir, owe Druids an apology.

Also, I think that while WotC may not want to put out the fire that they lit with the design of the Hexblade, they're wise enough not to pour lighter fluid on it by offering even more Charisma melee synergy.

[Millstone85]

Now that I think about it, isn't the base class kind of backward on this?

Wizard: Acquires the ability to cast spells through dedicated study, leaving only enough time to become proficient with a few simple weapons.

Warlock: Uses shortcuts provided by an otherworldly patron, leaving enough time to become proficient with light armor and all simple weapons.

Cleric: Constantly receives divine help with their spells, leaving plenty of time to become proficient with light armor, medium armor, shields and all simple weapons.

A logical-enough progression, but then:

Sorcerer: Has an intuitive understanding of spellcasting, which lies in their very blood, yet is somehow only as martially proficient as a wizard.

[TyGuy]

You, sir, owe Druids an apology.

Can't consider moon druid a unique version of a gish?

[Zaile]

Now that I think about it, isn't the base class kind of backward on this?

Wizard: Acquires the ability to cast spells through dedicated study, leaving only enough time to become proficient with a few simple weapons.

Warlock: Use shortcuts provided by an otherworldly patron, leaving enough time to become proficient with light armor and all simple weapons.

Cleric: Constantly receives divine help with their spells, leaving plenty of time to become proficient with light armor, medium armor, shields and all simple weapons.

A logical-enough progression, but then:

Sorcerer: Has an intuitive understanding of spellcasting, which lies in their very blood, yet is somehow only as martially proficient as a wizard.

I cannot agree with this enough. Back when I started playing 3e, I noticed "hey the wizard spends his time studying, the fighter spends his time training, but the sorcerer just instantly gets his stuff. What does he do the rest of the day?"

I always though sorcerers should have more skill points, more proficiencies and better attack bonuses than wizards. In 3.X closer to clerics/favored souls. In 5e, they defiantly should have gotten a martial option before wizard.

5e teased us with the earliest Favored Soul (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes) and ended up giving Celestial Warlock it's next best feature (Radiant Soul, which is wasted on EB class).

Just ask your DM to be nice and trade out "Empowered Healing" for extra attack.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Dragon sorcerer for AC and HP, pick up booming blade and green flame blade, use twin and quicken liberally. Ideally with a race that gets a martial weapon you can make use of. Dwarves are great, take heavily armored and use a two handed hammer. Or pick elf and run around with a rapier. Better yet, go unarmed and unarmored, with shadow blade!

I did a lot of this with a level of Fighter, but for sure there are other options that don't multiclass, including the Dwarf that make this viable. GFB and a Leveled Fire spell with a Fire Dragon Sorc are great.

[loki_ragnarock]

For some reason they are afraid of giving sorcerers extra attack.

Which is absurd. Thematically as touched on above, it makes no sense. Mechanically it makes even less sense; if there was ever a class that *needed* the extra utility that comes from a non spellcasting action, it's the Sorcerer. They are outdone as casters, and as warriors by... wizards. They are outdone by bards as warriors, casters, and skill monkeys simultaneously. Because of their limited spells known, simply giving them extra attack takes the onus off of simply finding the most effective spell/metamagic combo and spamming it endlessly, freeing the character to pick - you know - thematic spells like illusory script or skywrite. Not that you would, but you *could.* The freedom that comes from having a basic level of competence you can always rely on is pretty vast for a character archetype that is. so. freaking. constrained.

But that's the third rail of 5e, I guess.

[Zaile]

It makes even less sense post-Tasha's as the melee cantrips can no longer be Twinned b/c of the change to "self" for the range. Oh well, maybe next book we'll get a optional class feature to trade lvl 6 ability for bladesinger extra attack.

[Kane0]

The Stone and Favored Soul bloodlines were UA versions of the Gish Sorc, they just never made it to print.

[Fryy]

Why hasn’t there been an official sorcerer gish archetype?

I think there should be a Sorcerer sub-class which gets Extra Attack at 6th level... like Valor Bards, Swords Bards, or Bladesingers, or some Warlocks. Extra Attack is crucial.

Not to go too far off-topic, but I also think that Clerics should have a sub-class which gets Extra Attack at 6th level. Perhaps, they could errata War Domain Cleric to get Extra Attack at 6th level and modify divine strike to match the Paladin's Improved Divine Smite (+1d8 dmg/attack at 10th level).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Why hasn’t there been an official sorcerer gish archetype?

I think there should be a Sorcerer sub-class which gets Extra Attack at 6th level... like Valor Bards, Swords Bards, or Bladesingers, or some Warlocks. Extra Attack is crucial.

Not to go too far off-topic, but I also think that Clerics should have a sub-class which gets Extra Attack at 6th level. Perhaps, they could errata War Domain Cleric to get Extra Attack at 6th level and modify divine strike to match the Paladin's Improved Divine Smite (+1d8 dmg/attack at 10th level).

Extra Attack for those other subclasses is good... in tier 2. Post level 11 if you have access to blade cantrips it may not be an upgrade (with the exception of the Bladesinger version). I'd prefer more Quickens, and more Twins, assuming blade cantrips qualified, basically more Sorcerer to make a Gish viable.

[Droppeddead]

Why hasn’t there been an official sorcerer gish archetype?
Every class has a magical-martial weapon archetype except the sorcerer.


Clockwork Soul are pretty tanky and can easily manipulate things in their favour. Combine with a level of Twilight Cleric for Heavy Armour, Martial weapons and some other useful tricks and you are set to go.


You, sir, owe Druids an apology.

Moon and Spore druids are amongst the best tanks.

[Catullus64]

Can't consider moon druid a unique version of a gish?

A spellcaster who turns off his spells to temporarily turn himself into a Fighter does not meet my standards for a Gish, no. Circle of Spores has a little melee support, but not much, and they're still stuck with the standard Druid suite of weapons and a single attack.

If there's a case to be made that the Sorcerer needs a martial archetype, I think the same can hold for the Druid.

[RSP]

Divine Soul make good Gishes as they get some healing and the Cleric list has some great melee options (Spritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, etc).

[MrCharlie]

I think a Doylist explanation does contribute here-even if they wanted to add a sorcerer melee archetype, Paladin-Sorcerer +/- hexblade is already such a good multiclass that it's a bit. of a complicated metagame to disentangle. If you add a charisma melee sorcerer then Sorcadin is the new Hexadin, as sorcerer is already an excellent paladin multiclass and arguably a better core chassis for the paladin than warlock.

That said, I don't think WOTC particularly cares. So that leaves a mechanics explanation or a lore explanation. I think there is an explanation there, but it's a bit tangled.

First, until recently, sorcerer archetypes weren't very well thought out. Everything prior to Tasha's is "underpowered", in the sense that Sorcerer kinduve needed a ranger archetype treatment (where the archetype is as important as the base class) and they weren't getting it. That left the core chassis as a metamagic machine, and metamagic is overwhelmingly not synergistic with melee or too synergistic with melee. Twinned booming blade is actually helluve effective by itself, particularly if you grab some swashbuckler levels, and quickened anything is very, very good on a character with good non-spell actions.

So balancing a melee sorcerer is kinduve hard. If you don't want to limit viable metamagics you need to somehow prevent quicken from being used with whatever the battle sorcerer's main trick is. But this synergy is half of why people want a battle sorcerer to begin with. So you're stuck with needing to make something as viable without just being helluve OP.

There is also a small lore problem. The battle sorcerer appeared in 3.5, but I haven't really seen much since. People have been making INT fighter subclasses forever, but Paladin kinduve cornered the melee CHA market, and warlock moved in to take over the arcane submarket. Battle sorcerer still makes as much-even more-sense than something like bladesinger but there is less of a legacy, at least in my experience, to tap into.

I think it's entirely viable to design a battle sorcerer all the same-I'd personally start by letting them infuse a spell into a weapon attack for a sort of super booming-blade using sorcery points, and go from there. Call it "Infused Strike" or something. Give them bladesinger extra attack at 6 but let them use infused strike with one attack as well, and then add some neat on-hit effects with infused strike at 14. IDK what to do with level 18, but make it impressive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're into homebrew, there's a Lightsaber Sorcerer (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3bvved/sorcerous_origin_the_siverain_order_starwars_jedi/) from 2016.

[Garfunion]

There has been some interesting discussion in this thread which has allowed me to ponder a bit more.
I first would like to point out that I do not want an archetype that allows a sorcerer to use the charisma modifier for their weapon attack and damage roles, quite the opposite in fact. I would much rather the sorcerer be able to use their weapon attack bonus(strength or dexterity) in place of any melee or ranged spell attack.
I probably have it cost one sorcery point and you would be able to add the weapon’s damage die to the spells damage roll.

[MrCharlie]

There has been some interesting discussion in this thread which has allowed me to ponder a bit more.
I first would like to point out that I do not want an archetype that allows a sorcerer to use the charisma modifier for their weapon attack and damage roles, quite the opposite in fact. I would much rather the sorcerer be able to use their weapon attack bonus(strength or dexterity) in place of any melee or ranged spell attack.
I probably have it cost one sorcery point and you would be able to add the weapon’s damage die to the spells damage roll.
The problem with that is that A. Sorcery points are expensive B. It's bad and C. There aren't many spell attacks.

[Dr.Samurai]

I kind of liked that archetype as well but I think that if we’re going to make a gish archetype for the sorcerer they need to stop trying to think of a bloodline origin that represents weapon combat.
I'm with you as far as sorcerer gish archetype. I mean... remember those muscly sorcerers in Sword and Sorcery settings? Who doesn't want to play that? :)

I also wouldn't mind if it was a bit generic like you're implying here (not necessarily themed to a "martial" bloodline) so that it can be more general magic+combat.

That said, I can easily see the blood of some mythical giant like empyreans or titans giving both magical ability and physical/martial prowess through their bloodline.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm with you as far as sorcerer gish archetype. I mean... remember those muscly sorcerers in Sword and Sorcery settings? Who doesn't want to play that? :)

Funny thing is, in D&D terms, those are mostly wizards and warlocks, as they usually either study things man was not meant to know or make deals with otherwordly horrors. But sorcerer sounds cooler.

[Garfunion]

The problem with that is that A. Sorcery points are expensive B. It's bad and C. There aren't many spell attacks.

I could reduce the cost to 1 sorcery point for a minute of use for the ability. Why is it bad? There are about 15 spell attack spell. I believe that’s enough for a sorcerer who has limited spells known.
I was even thinking about it later levels allowing them to spin sorcery points to use their weapon ability modifier in their calculations for saving throws as well.

[MrCharlie]

I could reduce the cost to 1 sorcery point for a minute of use for the ability. Why is it bad? There are about 15 spell attack spell. I believe that’s enough for a sorcerer who has limited spells known.
I was even thinking about it later levels allowing them to spin sorcery points to use their weapon ability modifier in their calculations for saving throws as well.
1 sorcery point for weapon dice is not sufficient damage. 1 sorcery point for a minute is mildly sufficient, but I'm not sure they would actually make use of the ability. Letting you use a "martial" attribute to cast a spell isn't actually helpful to a caster unless it's a constant full replacement, in which case it basically has to be STR or it's probably too good. The spells which aren't cantrips and require attack rolls are-

Melfs acid arrow: Awful spell
Blade of Disaster: 9th level.
Booming Blade: Great, but already does what you want.
Chaos Bolt: Mediocre.
Chromatic Orb: Mediocre past tier 1.
Contagion: Not damage, does work on hostile creatures, extremely niche.
Crown of Stars: Concentration, N/A.
Dispel Evil and Good: Not damage or used against hostile creature.
Faithful Hound: N/A
Flame Blade: N/A
Guiding Bolt: Good damage and effect, not a sorcerer spell.
Ice Knife: Would hurt caster I think, otherwise mediocre damage past tier 1.
Inflict Wounds: Good damage, not a sorcerer spell.
Mordenkainens Sword-Concentration, N/A. Also awful.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Interesting, but probably not worth it past tier 1.
Ray of Sickness: Ditto.
Scorching Ray: How do you arbitrate the multiple rays?
Spiritual Weapon: N/A
Steel Wind Strike: Decent. Worse AOE damage than other 5th levels, but decent.
Storm sphere: N/A.
Vampiric Touch: Decent, uncertain how it would interact.
Wall of light: N/A
Witch bolt: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAno.

Which leaves-
Chromatic Orb
Guiding Bolt
Inflict Wounds
Ray of enfeeblement/sickness
Steel Wind Strike
Two of which you have to give to the player through the archetype or bust.

And maybe vampiric touch and scorching ray.

Alongside a bunch of cantrips which you've made into discount booming/greenflame blade.

Out of tier 1, your options are extremely limited.

A better idea is to let you make an attack as part of casting any spell with a single hostile target, and deliver it through a weapon attack. Let the sorcerer then spend sorcery points to roll additional damage dice as part of this attack at level 6 (and given them extra attack), and you've made an effective gish. Later abilities could allow you to deliver AOE spells this way as well (presumably through thrown or ranged weapons, but let people make their own mistakes).

That way you don't need to worry about there being good or extant spell attacks, just good or extant single (hostile) target spells. There are many more of those.

It's also an effective Gish who isn't keyed entirely off charisma, although you can modify them to be charisma SAD if you wish.

[Luccan]

Sorcerer should probably be inherently gish-ier than it is, given the obvious comparisons to Bard and Warlock, but it really feels like the Draconic Sorcerer specifically should have been more of a gish. It gives you bonus HP and free light armor, even resistance to a specific damage-type. But you don't get better weapon access and you don't get Extra Attack, so it's just a way to avoid the Mage Armor spell tax.


I cannot agree with this enough. Back when I started playing 3e, I noticed "hey the wizard spends his time studying, the fighter spends his time training, but the sorcerer just instantly gets his stuff. What does he do the rest of the day?"

I always though sorcerers should have more skill points, more proficiencies and better attack bonuses than wizards. In 3.X closer to clerics/favored souls. In 5e, they defiantly should have gotten a martial option before wizard.

During 3e and early 3.5 WotC designers vastly overvalued the ability to engage in melee combat and to some degree undervalued the desirability of skills. They also seemed to think Sorcerer was more powerful than it was, though I've also read (unconfirmed) rumors that the lead designer and several others just hated Sorcerers. It doesn't seem they've been able to shake the earliest flaws of their design.

[MrCharlie]

Sorcerer should probably be inherently gish-ier than it is, given the obvious comparisons to Bard and Warlock, but it really feels like the Draconic Sorcerer specifically should have been more of a gish. It gives you bonus HP and free light armor, even resistance to a specific damage-type. But you don't get better weapon access and you don't get Extra Attack, so it's just a way to avoid the Mage Armor spell tax.

During 3e and early 3.5 WotC designers vastly overvalued the ability to engage in melee combat and to some degree undervalued the desirability of skills. They also seemed to think Sorcerer was more powerful than it was, though I've also read (unconfirmed) rumors that the lead designer and several others just hated Sorcerers. It doesn't seem they've been able to shake the earliest flaws of their design.
If I was redesigning 5e right now, I'd probably make draconic bloodline into a draconic disciple, and make them a straight Gish. Charisma to attacks makes a lot of sense for them, and you could really flavor around the partial draconic nature of the archetype.

3.5 also seems to have underestimated player stats or undervalued bonus spells, because the whole sorcerer thing was supposed to be more spell slots, but in practice it was somewhat miniscule given the school spells and bonus spells, plus the earlier spell access gave wizards even more bonus spells.

For instance a wizard with 20 in a stat at level 3 had 5 first level wizard spells and 3 2nd level wizard spells, while a sorcerer had 7 1st level sorcerer spells. In other words, the sorcerer had fewer spells if the casting attribute was high, and the wizard had higher level spells. Granted this was at a bad sorcerer level, but they really screwed the sorcerer there, and in general the delayed spell progression was crippling.

They also vastly overestimated the usability of flexible casting when you had so few known spells, and underestimated the versatility of the wizard (particularly when you added in spell bloat).

[Ogun]

I've played a stone sorcerer as a "tank" in a party of non-optimisers, and it was a blast.
Not sure why it's flavored as stone, it feels more "steel" than anything, a living weapon so to speak.
With the hit point bump, unarmored ac, shield use and weapons profs, I felt comfortable on the front line during admittedly not challenging game play.
Since it didn't make Tasha's, I'm guessing that is not a direction the developers are going in.
Right now I'm planning a Lizardfolk Aberrant Mind sorcerer for the unarmored ac.
I wish all character classes had an in class option unarmored ac but that kind of pick your feature design has many pitfalls.


My ideal sorcerer would run off of Con and instead of sorcery points there would be unavoidable hit point damage, either set amounts or rolled dice of damage.
This promotes sorcery that springs from the blood ,taxes the body, and frees the character to invest in Dex or Str.
Now you could still choose to be charming and erudite but its no longer true by default.
Probably broken, but I like it.

[Segev]

Dragon sorcerers get light armor for free and a built-in weapon attack. Though they don't synergize with melee too strongly. Maybe a careful selection of spells could make it reasonable.

[Cybren]

I cannot agree with this enough. Back when I started playing 3e, I noticed "hey the wizard spends his time studying, the fighter spends his time training, but the sorcerer just instantly gets his stuff. What does he do the rest of the day?"

I always though sorcerers should have more skill points, more proficiencies and better attack bonuses than wizards. In 3.X closer to clerics/favored souls. In 5e, they defiantly should have gotten a martial option before wizard.

5e teased us with the earliest Favored Soul (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes) and ended up giving Celestial Warlock it's next best feature (Radiant Soul, which is wasted on EB class).

Just ask your DM to be nice and trade out "Empowered Healing" for extra attack.

The error here is assuming "has innate ability to do X" means "does not need to practice doing X".
I have the innate ability to punch but I still need to take boxing lessons to be good at it

[RSP]

The error here is assuming "has innate ability to do X" means "does not need to practice doing X".
I have the innate ability to punch but I still need to take boxing lessons to be good at it

Sure, but the PHB clearly says the Sorcerers powers come innately. Do using your punch analogy, Wizards have to train for years just to punch; while Sorcerers do it naturally, free of training. To be an experienced boxer, is more like being a level 6 Sorcerer; but just punching is level 1.