What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

[liquidformat]

So I have been playing around with the duskblade trying to figure out what would be the best choice on the other side. Race is also open to suggestion. I like the idea of warblade as the other side but I feel like it conflicts a lot with duskblade unless you are cherry picking only swift action abilities. psychic warrior always struck me as a good choice because you can use your powers to focus on buffing but you start getting rather mad. swashbuckler doesn't offer enough bang for your buck unless you also add rogue but seems in general a little lackluster. Maybe fighter/Weapon Master to pickup Ki Whirlwind Attack and focus on hitting everyone within reach of your movement every round?

Anyways let me know what people think makes for a good duskblade build combination!

[Gnaeus]

Well your best options will be (in order)
A T1 int caster.
A T2 int caster
Factotum
A T1 non int caster
A T2 non int caster
Warblade, warmage
Most other T3s

[Glimbur]

For the T3- stuff, you might look at classes which have more always on abilities, rather than requiring an action to use. Binder, Incarnate or Totemist, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept or Warlock, maybe Marshal though you don't want to add a cha requirement...
You could also get some mileage out of the humble Rogue. Sneak attack and skills are something, anyway.

[AnimeTheCat]

I mean... it depends on what you want to do, right?

When you envision this Duskblade, what do they do? Are they the type that wades in to combat, or are they the type that is a spellcaster that can do combat? What do you want your Duskblade to do and be good at?

[lylsyly]

Archivist for INT synergy and divine spells (reason being Duskblade armor proficiency without ASF only counts for the spells of the Duskblade list).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Duskblade gets Int-based spellcasting, and gets to channel spells (not necessarily psionic powers) through their attacks. It also gets full BAB and good Fort and Will saves, so combining it with another full BAB class is a bit redundant. The obvious best choice is a full-casting class that uses Int, such as Wizard or Archivist, or maybe Beguiler, or even Psion if using magic/psionics transparency.

You can stay single-classes with Duskblade and use prestige classes to advance your spellcasting class to have better class features. Four levels of Divine Oracle gets you evasion and uncanny dodge, and you can use the Frog God's Fane to get its prerequisite feat without spending a feat on it. Paragnostic Apostle gets you some fantastic bonuses to certain spells, but only take as many levels as the number of abilities you want from it. Incantatrix is always amazing for persistent spell shenanigans via metamagic effect, and you can even apply its prohibited school to your duskblade casting for minimal loss of spells. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil adds some extremely powerful defensive abilities, which you may need. Archmage has some overlapping prerequisites with that, but may not be worth all the feats it requires otherwise. Master Specialist can also help with gaining the prerequisite feats for those two classes if you're using Wizard. A Mindbender dip is generally worthwhile if you're not good-aligned. Abjurant Champion can boost your defensive spells as well, and doesn't cost you any feats thanks to Duskblade. Sacred Exorcist is useful for gaining Divine Metamagic with Archivist. Just make sure none of your prestige class levels lose any spellcasting.

For race, it depends on what stats you want to prioritize and what level you're starting at and/or expect to reach. If you're going with Incantatrix and something that can cast Draconci Polymorph, you can use that persistent every day and not worry about your physical stats. Or you can have high physical stats and Draconic Polymorph into yourself for even higher stats, but another form (such as War Troll in MM3) is typically going to be better. A Gray Elf or Fire Elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire) gets an Int bonus, but a Con penalty. The Arctic creature template in Dragon 306 p61 is +0 LA and gets +2 Con, -2 Cha plus some other minor adjustments. Human is always a decent choice of course.

[Crichton]

Archivist for INT synergy and divine spells (reason being Duskblade armor proficiency without ASF only counts for the spells of the Duskblade list).


This needs to be emphasized and taken into account when suggesting other spellcasting classes for the gestalt. It's not something that can't be overcome or worked around, but it also can't be ignored.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This needs to be emphasized and taken into account when suggesting other spellcasting classes for the gestalt. It's not something that can't be overcome or worked around, but it also can't be ignored.

Between Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Abjurant Champion plus Paragnostic Apostle making those +15 and +9 respectively with no max dex bonus and not occupying a hand, it can definitely be ignored in the mid to late levels.

[Anthrowhale]

An unusual choice would be going for Spelldancer 2. The feat tax is 4, but Duskblade pays 1 (combat casting) and there are several races that pay another (endurance). Of the races, Frost-blood half-orc or Orc (Dragon Magic) look interesting. Alternatively human works well of course. A 3rd feat (mobility) is potentially available via Armor of Mobility. The 4th feat (Dodge) is potentially available via several Bloodlines (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineDescriptions). Alternatively, Dodge & Mobility are fighter bonus feats and hence available on an inconsistent basis via Mirror Move or Heroics.

The advantage of Spelldancer is that you can persist many spells (and incidentally grants access to evasion). A combination of persisting spells and using full attack arcane channeling could be pretty potent. If your DM is permissive about scrolls then Archivist seems like the obvious choice. If the DM is not, then the Arcane Disciple cleric (dragon #311) is nice for the ability to cherry pick high value spells from the wizard list.

I'm a little confused by what happens you use persistent wraithstrike with a full attack arcane channel [Erupt], but "catastrophic" might be a good descriptor.

[Gnaeus]

Between Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Abjurant Champion plus Paragnostic Apostle making those +15 and +9 respectively with no max dex bonus and not occupying a hand, it can definitely be ignored in the mid to late levels.

Honestly, armor use is a trivial bar for gestalting with a T1-2. The divine casters can all wear armor. Beguiler and DN are limited to light but that’s like a 3AC difference. Wizard has all that stuff mentioned above, but also things like Alter Self (+6 NA low op IIRC), Polymorph (huge NA bonuses), mirror image, greater Invisibility, stoneskin. Kicking up to things like magic jar, shapechange and astral projection. Who cares if you get medium armor when your body is a drone you are piloting safely from another dimension.

And then there are the multiple ways a wizard can choose to spellcast in armor before all that stuff comes online. A feycraft Mithral shirt is cheap compared with infinite cosmic power.

[liquidformat]

Hmm, I always forget that Arcane Channeling is expressly not limited to duskblade spell list... That does really expand the choices and power level. I still do like the idea of going Weapon Master but that is a lot of levels in, seems like Bloodstorm Blade can do similar for a cheaper price tag...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm, I always forget that Arcane Channeling is expressly not limited to duskblade spell list... That does really expand the choices and power level. I still do like the idea of going Weapon Master but that is a lot of levels in, seems like Bloodstorm Blade can do similar for a cheaper price tag...

If your group uses magic/psionics transparency then you could also use it with psionic powers and go Psion or Erudite. Those don't get any spell failure for armor, if you're concerned about that.

You only need four levels of Bloodstorm Blade, so go Duskblade 13/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 4 and then 2 levels of whatever you want, if you'll be playing that long. Othewise just cast Whirling Blade or Thunderlance if you want to melee attack at a distance.

[NigelWalmsley]

The obvious best choice is a full-casting class that uses Int, such as Wizard or Archivist, or maybe Beguiler, or even Psion if using magic/psionics transparency.

I disagree. Duskblades have Int as their casting stat, but the way their casting works, they don't really need very much of it. You get 3rd level spells at 9th level, 4th level spell at 13th level, and 5th level spells at 17th level. And the spells you are casting are largely ones that don't particularly rely on saves. A Duskblade needs Int only a slightly greater degree than someone who wants to take a feat or PrC that requires Combat Expertise does. You certainly can go Wizard, and that's a defensible choice because Wizard is a great class, but the synergy is much clearer if you're going Wizard => Duskbade, rather than the other way around.

I would argue that the best fit for Duskblade is actually Druid. Druid is the best out-of-the-box melee caster, and Wild Shape means that you can actually afford a pretty high Int anyway since you can largely ignore your physical stats. But the real synergy is in your Wild Shape forms. Specifically, the Giant Squid. It comes online at around the same time as full-attack channeling, and boasts an eleven-attack full attack. That means that even something as simple as Shocking Grasp is throwing down 55 dice of damage.

[StSword]

All things being equal, I'd say the best cross is Artificer.

Duskmages are frontline warriors who know spells.

Action economy being what it is, being an artificer so you have the best gear available while you swing a sword or cast a spell seems like the choice option.

Choose to be warforged, and you can even heal yourself.

[AvatarVecna]

Honestly, armor use is a trivial bar for gestalting with a T1-2. The divine casters can all wear armor. Beguiler and DN are limited to light but that’s like a 3AC difference. Wizard has all that stuff mentioned above, but also things like Alter Self (+6 NA low op IIRC), Polymorph (huge NA bonuses), mirror image, greater Invisibility, stoneskin. Kicking up to things like magic jar, shapechange and astral projection. Who cares if you get medium armor when your body is a drone you are piloting safely from another dimension.

And then there are the multiple ways a wizard can choose to spellcast in armor before all that stuff comes online. A feycraft Mithral shirt is cheap compared with infinite cosmic power.

I once went through all the casters in the game. There's only a handful of classes across the whole game that actually have to care about not wearing armor to cast 100% of the time. Basically every other caster either is divine casting and doesn't care, is arcane casting but with a bard-like feature that lets them cast in some level of armor, or has an ACF that allows for the same (like Battle Sorcerer). Wizard and Wu Jen are like the only classes that have to care no matter what. It's so strange that there's scads more exceptions than classes playing the rule straight.

[Gruftzwerg]

Have a look at my non-gestalt Shivering Tornado of Death (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) build.

1: First you need access to "Shivering Touch" the best spell for Duskblades. Sadly its a 3rd lvl Wiz/Sorc or Cleric spell. This means that you either need to take 7 lvls on your second side or as I did in my build, use Recaster to get it on your Duskblade spell list (Wyrm Wizard would be another option).

2: Get Whirlwind (feat) and Duskbalde lvl 13 to use WW with Arcane Channeling together.

3: Finally you need 2 lvls in Bloodstorm Blade. Now you can throw your melee weapon and let the attack count as melee attack back. This allows you to WW all enemies in up to 50ft reach. (rule explanation see build).

4: Another good prc for this gestalt build would be Hammer of Moradin. At 9th lvl the prc gives you a 60ft line hammer attack. It's recommend to raise BSB to lvl 4 to get "free action returning" for your weapon. This way you can full attack with the 60ft line attack (hits everthing in its path). While I have a build for this prc in my signature, its not with Duskblade, but it could be still of interest.

5: Get a 18-20/x2 crit weapon, since ability damage can crit.

[Skyrender]

Have a look at my non-gestalt Shivering Tornado of Death (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization) build.

1: First you need access to "Shivering Touch" the best spell for Duskblades. Sadly its a 3rd lvl Wiz/Sorc or Cleric spell. This means that you either need to take 7 lvls on your second side or as I did in my build, use Recaster to get it on your Duskblade spell list (Wyrm Wizard would be another option).

2: Get Whirlwind (feat) and Duskbalde lvl 13 to use WW with Arcane Channeling together.

3: Finally you need 2 lvls in Bloodstorm Blade. Now you can throw your melee weapon and let the attack count as melee attack back. This allows you to WW all enemies in up to 50ft reach. (rule explanation see build).

4: Another good prc for this gestalt build would be Hammer of Moradin. At 9th lvl the prc gives you a 60ft line hammer attack. It's recommend to raise BSB to lvl 4 to get "free action returning" for your weapon. This way you can full attack with the 60ft line attack (hits everthing in its path). While I have a build for this prc in my signature, its not with Duskblade, but it could be still of interest.

5: Get a 18-20/x2 crit weapon, since ability damage can crit.

You don't need recaster or wyrm wizard to add shivering touch to your repertoire. Just grab extra spell as your level 15 feat, and be done with it. In fact, you won't even be getting it any later than you would with the build you linked above.

[Gruftzwerg]

You don't need recaster or wyrm wizard to add shivering touch to your repertoire. Just grab extra spell as your level 15 feat, and be done with it. In fact, you won't even be getting it any later than you would with the build you linked above.

Sadly, Extra Spell is debatable. While it gives the permission to get spells that the class hasn't access to and can't research, this is still not a permission to pick from other classes spell list. The feat is useful for specialized wizards with forbidden schools, which they lack access too and can't research.
The FAQ has also the statement that the spell must still be from your spell list, which would back up this interpretation.
You could still try to argue for RAW but RAI is pretty obvious here. That's the reason I like to avoid it as suggestion for others.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Dragonblood Spell-pact should work for off-list access by a Duskblade.

[Khedrac]

Going back to the original question "What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade?" the first question to ask is "What makes a good gestalt combination?"

The answer to this is nearly always "one active class combined with one passive class". What is meant by this? Well you have a limited number of actions per round, so when you combine two T1 classes (e.g. wizard and archivist - a combination that sounds overpowering) they cannot do any more than a T1 character could do (they just have more choice in what spell to cast) - it may still be the most powerful option, but effectively you are not playing Gestalt, you are just playing expanded normal D&D.
So, instead you need to combine two classes, one which has features that you can actively use each round (e.g. duskblade or wizard) and one that provides benefits that do not require actions every round to activate (e.g. marshal or rogue).

Consider: a duskblade who wants to channel a spell and attack has to use a standard action to do so, thus it cannot be combined with any other standard action (such as use a strike from a martial adept class), however if their attack happens to be flanking then a rogue's sneak attack happens automatically.
Bard can be a good choice, but a duskblade's spell-casting interrupts the bardic music bards are better paired with other martial classes such as swordsages.
Marshals and Dragon Shamans however have aura that just remain up - again a good choice for paring in gestalt.

Another option is a class where the class feature are not used much in combat (here the rogue's skill points come to mind) - when combined with a class that has no out-of-combat features (e.g. fighter) they may not synergise in combat, but make the character able to be relevant more of the time. A T1 caster can fulfil this role, if the spells chosen are non-combat spells (or long-duration buffs), but it is not a good use of a T1 caster.

Looking back at the early suggestion of "pretty much any T1 character" the problem is not that they are a poor gestalt pick for a duskblade, but that a duskblade is a poor gestalt pick for a T1 caster - the character is unlikely to play as a duskblade which is what the OP appears to want.

So, what then? Well, with the support classes (those with auras and skill points) most of them will work, depending on what you want to do, but what will work best is a combination chosen to synergise with the rest of the party.

If your DM will allow a channel spell attack to be made as part of a spring attack, then scout becomes a good option as well.

[Gnaeus]

Going back to the original question "What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade?" the first question to ask is "What makes a good gestalt combination?"

The answer to this is nearly always "one active class combined with one passive class". What is meant by this? Well you have a limited number of actions per round, so when you combine two T1 classes (e.g. wizard and archivist - a combination that sounds overpowering) they cannot do any more than a T1 character could do (they just have more choice in what spell to cast) - it may still be the most powerful option, but effectively you are not playing Gestalt, you are just playing expanded normal D&D.
So, instead you need to combine two classes, one which has features that you can actively use each round (e.g. duskblade or wizard) and one that provides benefits that do not require actions every round to activate (e.g. marshal or rogue).

Consider: a duskblade who wants to channel a spell and attack has to use a standard action to do so, thus it cannot be combined with any other standard action (such as use a strike from a martial adept class), however if their attack happens to be flanking then a rogue's sneak attack happens automatically.
Bard can be a good choice, but a duskblade's spell-casting interrupts the bardic music bards are better paired with other martial classes such as swordsages.
Marshals and Dragon Shamans however have aura that just remain up - again a good choice for paring in gestalt.

Another option is a class where the class feature are not used much in combat (here the rogue's skill points come to mind) - when combined with a class that has no out-of-combat features (e.g. fighter) they may not synergise in combat, but make the character able to be relevant more of the time. A T1 caster can fulfil this role, if the spells chosen are non-combat spells (or long-duration buffs), but it is not a good use of a T1 caster.

Looking back at the early suggestion of "pretty much any T1 character" the problem is not that they are a poor gestalt pick for a duskblade, but that a duskblade is a poor gestalt pick for a T1 caster - the character is unlikely to play as a duskblade which is what the OP appears to want.

So, what then? Well, with the support classes (those with auras and skill points) most of them will work, depending on what you want to do, but what will work best is a combination chosen to synergise with the rest of the party.

If your DM will allow a channel spell attack to be made as part of a spring attack, then scout becomes a good option as well.

So, you want to play as a Duskblade. I interpret that as you want to fight things probably in melee and do spell combat.

So, you are looking at things that boost your melee damage. Choices like Swashbuckler or Rogue or marshal.

Any T1 can trivially boost melee damage better than those. If your wizard never memorized anything but quickened true strikes, greater Magic Weapons and polymorphs, it would significantly outperform every classe you listed. And still fight like a Duskblade. No, it isn’t the best way to optimize the T1, but it is certainly the best way to optimize for acting like a Duskblade. Who chooses your spell selection? You do.

[Darg]

Why not binder? Lots of flavor, lots of passive stuff, free Whirlwind attack. Sure there isn't much if anything that can be used with your spell channeling, but there is a lot of flexibility there.

Going enlightened fist in combo with a full casting class gives you lots of ammunition for your spell channeling.

Going soul knife/psychic warrior/hidden talent + non psionic class into War Mind is is an option for more synergy thanks to sweeping strike.

Totemist might be a good option too.

[liquidformat]

Going back to the original question "What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade?" the first question to ask is "What makes a good gestalt combination?"

The answer to this is nearly always "one active class combined with one passive class". What is meant by this? Well you have a limited number of actions per round, so when you combine two T1 classes (e.g. wizard and archivist - a combination that sounds overpowering) they cannot do any more than a T1 character could do (they just have more choice in what spell to cast) - it may still be the most powerful option, but effectively you are not playing Gestalt, you are just playing expanded normal D&D.
So, instead you need to combine two classes, one which has features that you can actively use each round (e.g. duskblade or wizard) and one that provides benefits that do not require actions every round to activate (e.g. marshal or rogue).

Consider: a duskblade who wants to channel a spell and attack has to use a standard action to do so, thus it cannot be combined with any other standard action (such as use a strike from a martial adept class), however if their attack happens to be flanking then a rogue's sneak attack happens automatically.
Bard can be a good choice, but a duskblade's spell-casting interrupts the bardic music bards are better paired with other martial classes such as swordsages.
Marshals and Dragon Shamans however have aura that just remain up - again a good choice for paring in gestalt.

Another option is a class where the class feature are not used much in combat (here the rogue's skill points come to mind) - when combined with a class that has no out-of-combat features (e.g. fighter) they may not synergise in combat, but make the character able to be relevant more of the time. A T1 caster can fulfil this role, if the spells chosen are non-combat spells (or long-duration buffs), but it is not a good use of a T1 caster.

Looking back at the early suggestion of "pretty much any T1 character" the problem is not that they are a poor gestalt pick for a duskblade, but that a duskblade is a poor gestalt pick for a T1 caster - the character is unlikely to play as a duskblade which is what the OP appears to want.

So, what then? Well, with the support classes (those with auras and skill points) most of them will work, depending on what you want to do, but what will work best is a combination chosen to synergise with the rest of the party.

If your DM will allow a channel spell attack to be made as part of a spring attack, then scout becomes a good option as well.

I don't think I agree with your premise especially after rereading duskblade. the fact that duskblade's channeling ability works with any touch spell and not just duskblade spells means getting access to other spell lists dramatically increases your power so tier 1 casters specifically tier 1 int based casters should give a huge boost to your power level.
Also initiators potentially also work very well with duskblade as long as you focus on swift actions and counters, or you go into bloodstorm blade to increase the range at which you can full channel your attacks.
On the other hand martial being focused on cha doesn't seem that great of a choice since it actively makes you more MAD. But rogue, swashbuckler, and scout aren't bad choices even though they don't boost you up that much.

[Skyrender]

Sadly, Extra Spell is debatable. While it gives the permission to get spells that the class hasn't access to and can't research, this is still not a permission to pick from other classes spell list. The feat is useful for specialized wizards with forbidden schools, which they lack access too and can't research.
The FAQ has also the statement that the spell must still be from your spell list, which would back up this interpretation.
You could still try to argue for RAW but RAI is pretty obvious here. That's the reason I like to avoid it as suggestion for others.

I don't know what FAQ you're referring to. Is it third-party material?

Either way, I would argue that you're wasting one of your feats to gain the ability to cast a single spell, and not even a spell from the top level you have access to. Usually, this is because you need one specific spell you could not otherwise acquire (requirements for a PrC, or a feat, or something that your build otherwise hinges upon).

For the record, the reason specialist wizards can use extra spell to add spells from their forbidden schools to their repertoire is NOT because it allows them to add the sorcerer/wizard version, but rather because it allows them to snag the forbidden spell from a different class's spell list. The only reason the feat includes the wording about the spell being of its normal spell level is because certain spells are different levels for different classes. For example, bards get charm monster as a level 3 spell, while sorcerers and wizards treat it as level 4. The wording in the feat is there so even if you do add a spell from a class where it would be lower level, you use your class's own spell level if it's on your class's spell list.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't know what FAQ you're referring to. Is it third-party material?

3.5 FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) is 100% official, but may argue that it's not RAW whenever it's inconvenient for what they're trying to accomplish.

[smasher0404]

Duskblades already get full BAB and has a fairly martial HD (D8s), so you'll get reduced gains from going into another martial focused class. Unlike most spellcasting classes, Duskblade gestalts fairly well with other spellcasting classes, being able to expand what spells you can cast through your Arcane Channeling since neither Arcane Channeling nor Quick Cast actually require the spell to be on the Duskblade list.

The Archivist (Heroes of Horror) is probably immediately the best option out of the box. It has Int-based Divine Casting (so no MAD with the second list, and Divine casting does not suffer Arcane Spell Failure). They have access to one of the broadest spell lists in the game, since they can scribe any Divine scroll they can get their hands on (so you can poach the best Touch-range spells/buff spells from the Divine spellcasting lists).

Death Master (Dragon Magazine Compendium) could make for a nice lower-OP pick. They are an Int-based Arcane Casting class, but they have a mechanic that allows them to ignore Arcane Spell Failure if they can sacrifice a creature to Orcus for its blood. You also get a permanent minion to use as a flanking buddy, and if for some reason you take it to 13, you can use said minion as an HP buffer via a Shield Other effect and Sustenance of the Dead (which converts controlled Undead into temporary hit points). They also get Rebuke Undead as an Int-based caster, granting access to Divine feats. The spell list leaves a lot to be desired, but you do pick up a couple of neat spells, including Animate Dead as a 2nd level spell, and the Inflict line of spells.

Bard, while not a conventional choice, can make for a neat background option. The Melodic Casting feat allows you to use Inspire Courage to boost your physical combat abilities and retain the ability to cast while doing so. Your chassis actually improves, going to 6+Int skill points per level on a fairly long list rather than 2+Int skill points. The bard's spell list contains some solid buff spells, that you can use before combat or in combination with Quick Cast on your Duskblade side.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't know what FAQ you're referring to. Is it third-party material?

Either way, I would argue that you're wasting one of your feats to gain the ability to cast a single spell, and not even a spell from the top level you have access to. Usually, this is because you need one specific spell you could not otherwise acquire (requirements for a PrC, or a feat, or something that your build otherwise hinges upon).

For the record, the reason specialist wizards can use extra spell to add spells from their forbidden schools to their repertoire is NOT because it allows them to add the sorcerer/wizard version, but rather because it allows them to snag the forbidden spell from a different class's spell list. The only reason the feat includes the wording about the spell being of its normal spell level is because certain spells are different levels for different classes. For example, bards get charm monster as a level 3 spell, while sorcerers and wizards treat it as level 4. The wording in the feat is there so even if you do add a spell from a class where it would be lower level, you use your class's own spell level if it's on your class's spell list.

Biffoniacus_Furiou thankfully provided the link and as said it is at least official but not RAW (and thus arguable). But it at least shows RAI (rules as intended), but even here there are a few examples of contradicting answers, so always to use with care.


Can the warmage (CAr) benefit from the Extra Spell
feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells
known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list.
Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class
spell list, this feat has no effect
Imho the feat only gives you the permission to access spells from forbidden schools and not the permission to pick from other classes spell list. But I can see how it is still debatable on a RAW level. But RAI is obvious here.

[DMVerdandi]

All things being equal, I'd say the best cross is Artificer.

Duskmages are frontline warriors who know spells.

Action economy being what it is, being an artificer so you have the best gear available while you swing a sword or cast a spell seems like the choice option.

Choose to be warforged, and you can even heal yourself.

Wholly agree with this and came to say it.

Artificer would be a GREAT second class, especially with infusions and such and as sword said, being a warforged would allow you to spell strike even better. But it's not necessary to be a warforged.


Another thing is, definitely chose psionic artificer too. This is a super awesome setup, and using your infusions will give you supreme flexibility.

[Darg]

Biffoniacus_Furiou thankfully provided the link and as said it is at least official but not RAW (and thus arguable). But it at least shows RAI (rules as intended), but even here there are a few examples of contradicting answers, so always to use with care.

Imho the feat only gives you the permission to access spells from forbidden schools and not the permission to pick from other classes spell list. But I can see how it is still debatable on a RAW level. But RAI is obvious here.

It's also RAW for characters to research spells from other lists to have on their list. By RAW a wizard can research an arcane cure wounds spell for example.


You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

It is very easy to read that as giving permission to learn spells outside of provided spell lists.

The biggest complaint for using the FAQ to arbitrate is that it contradicts itself and in many cases says the opposite of what is actually written. The FAQ works best when using it for ideas on how to arbitrate something yourself.

[Thunder999]

If you like action economy it's hard to say no to factotum, extra standard actions is pretty sweet.

Factotums are just really good at being gestalt.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's also RAW for characters to research spells from other lists to have on their list. By RAW a wizard can research an arcane cure wounds spell for example.



It is very easy to read that as giving permission to learn spells outside of provided spell lists.

The biggest complaint for using the FAQ to arbitrate is that it contradicts itself and in many cases says the opposite of what is actually written. The FAQ works best when using it for ideas on how to arbitrate something yourself.

1. The actual rule text here is sole the first sentence:


You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.
Nowhere does this sentence give you the permission to learn spells from other classes. It allows you to "learn one additional spell .." that "you can currently cast". The spells you can cast belong to a class specific list. You cast Wizards spells or Druid spells or Bard spells.. No indicator that you may ignore what you are normally casting.

2. All other sentences only give examples. And examples don't add rules, they explain/showchase rules.

Extra Spell is generally used ..
The beginning of the last sentence indicates that it is another example and doesn't add rules.

3. "lacks access to and would be unable to research" is referring to the fact that the actual rule/benefit this feat gives is ignoring any prohibited schools wizards may have.
Notice the "and" combining those conditions. It's not "or", so both conditions must be fulfilled for this example. There is sole one way to be generally (by the rules, not the DM ;) ) unable to research a certain spell. And that is by specializing in a school and thus giving up entire access to other schools of magic. Thus, this example is referring to that and not to picking spells from other classes list. Because spell research ain't generally prohibited to research spells from other classes spell list.

[Darg]

Nowhere does this sentence give you the permission to learn spells from other classes. It allows you to "learn one additional spell .." that "you can currently cast". The spells you can cast belong to a class specific list. You cast Wizards spells or Druid spells or Bard spells.. No indicator that you may ignore what you are normally casting.

Nowhere does it restrict you from learning custom spells that are added to the spell list from research.


3. "lacks access to and would be unable to research" is referring to the fact that the actual rule/benefit this feat gives is ignoring any prohibited schools wizards may have.
Notice the "and" combining those conditions. It's not "or", so both conditions must be fulfilled for this example. There is sole one way to be generally (by the rules, not the DM ;) ) unable to research a certain spell. And that is by specializing in a school and thus giving up entire access to other schools of magic. Thus, this example is referring to that and not to picking spells from other classes list. Because spell research ain't generally prohibited to research spells from other classes spell list.

This feat does not give permission to have access to spells within your prohibited schools. In order to do so you would have to make a custom spell with a school that you have access to.

Notice how the FAQ doesn't say that warmages can't research spells? Despite what the FAQ says, it doesn't prevent a player taking this feat from bypassing research requirements to add a spell to their list. Everything is under the control of what the DM allows. Many DMs don't allow spell research for custom spells, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't allow it.

We can argue nuance all day and neither side is going to win because the wording is too vague to have the right understanding of RAI. RAW allows it to happen and RAW allows the DM to prevent shenanigans. The FAQ is not RAW nor is it RAI. This is not pathfinder.

[Gruftzwerg]

Nowhere does it restrict you from learning custom spells that are added to the spell list from research.



This feat does not give permission to have access to spells within your prohibited schools. In order to do so you would have to make a custom spell with a school that you have access to.

Notice how the FAQ doesn't say that warmages can't research spells? Despite what the FAQ says, it doesn't prevent a player taking this feat from bypassing research requirements to add a spell to their list. Everything is under the control of what the DM allows. Many DMs don't allow spell research for custom spells, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't allow it.

We can argue nuance all day and neither side is going to win because the wording is too vague to have the right understanding of RAI. RAW allows it to happen and RAW allows the DM to prevent shenanigans. The FAQ is not RAW nor is it RAI. This is not pathfinder.

Point 3 is a quote form the actual feat description and thus a 100% RAW argument. I don't see how you have disproved it.

lacks access to and would be unable to research.
The sole thing that comes into my mind that fits both requirements are spells from forbidden schools. Spells from other classes can be researched by default (even if only under DM permission, but that is a global problem of spell research ifself) and thus don't work with the feat.
Sorcerer easily qualify for this requirement due to their limited spell knowledge and the lack of "spell research".
Wizards qualify with spells from forbidden schools. But since it is not spell research (it is sole part of the requirement), it did never gave you the permission to pick spells from other classes spell list.

[Darg]

Or perhaps unable to research due to lack of resources such as money or time? Lack of access could simply be that the wizard wouldn't be able to purchase or locate such a spell. Prohibited schools are prohibited schools.


Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard

Even if the feat let the wizard learn the spell, it doesn't remove the "not available" quality unless handwaved by the DM. A wizard has free reign to copy a spell from their prohibited school in their spellbook; doesn't mean they can cast it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Or perhaps unable to research due to lack of resources such as money or time? Lack of access could simply be that the wizard wouldn't be able to purchase or locate such a spell. Prohibited schools are prohibited schools.

If you want to argue that by "RAW" the feat can only be taken if you are to poor to effort to research is, I would give you a point. But I guess we can all agree that it shouldn't be the intention (RAI) of a feat to exclude the rich, with the exception of Vow of Poverty..^^



Even if the feat let the wizard learn the spell, it doesn't remove the "not available" quality unless handwaved by the DM. A wizard has free reign to copy a spell from their prohibited school in their spellbook; doesn't mean they can cast it.
So wanna say that, the feat lets you get a spell from other spell classes that is "not available" by normal means to you, but doesn't allow you to pick forbidden spells that are "not available" to you? Do you see the contradiction logic here?

The conditions "lacks access" and "unable to search" only fit for "forbidden school spells from your class list" as prepared caster (.e.g. wizard) or lets spontaneous caster with limited spells known and without access to spell research pick a spell from their class list.

The feat still never did give you the permission to pick from other classes lists (as "spell research" does as reference).

[Darg]

If you want to argue that by "RAW" the feat can only be taken if you are to poor to effort to research is, I would give you a point. But I guess we can all agree that it shouldn't be the intention (RAI) of a feat to exclude the rich, with the exception of Vow of Poverty..^^


So wanna say that, the feat lets you get a spell from other spell classes that is "not available" by normal means to you, but doesn't allow you to pick forbidden spells that are "not available" to you? Do you see the contradiction logic here?

The conditions "lacks access" and "unable to search" only fit for "forbidden school spells from your class list" as prepared caster (.e.g. wizard) or lets spontaneous caster with limited spells known and without access to spell research pick a spell from their class list.

The feat still never did give you the permission to pick from other classes lists (as "spell research" does as reference).

It says you learn them. It does not say you are allowed to cast them. If you want to houserule it that way, feel free. You don't have to be too poor to research the spell. It could be that your DM doesn't give you the merchants to buy from, let the scroll drop as a reward, or let you research the spell beyond what the class gives for free.

This feat does not exclude the attainment of original/custom spells which is my argument from the start. This means that the feat would indeed have a use for warmage, who under normal circumstances would be unable to research original spells to add to their list thanks to the roleplay aspect of how they obtain their spells.

Never once did I say that it was a blank check to pick whatever spell one wished outside of their own spell list. The only feat that does that is precocious apprentice, and even then only until you gain access to 2nd level spells; at which point you lose access to the spell.

[CE DM]

So I have been playing around with the duskblade trying to figure out what would be the best choice on the other side. Race is also open to suggestion. I like the idea of warblade as the other side but I feel like it conflicts a lot with duskblade unless you are cherry picking only swift action abilities. psychic warrior always struck me as a good choice because you can use your powers to focus on buffing but you start getting rather mad. swashbuckler doesn't offer enough bang for your buck unless you also add rogue but seems in general a little lackluster. Maybe fighter/Weapon Master to pickup Ki Whirlwind Attack and focus on hitting everyone within reach of your movement every round?

Anyways let me know what people think makes for a good duskblade build combination!

Psion (psychic warrior means wisdom, not int)

fighter just for lots of feat fun is fine though, and beguiler, shadowcaster, wizard, etc all work of course. If it's high powered beyond the assumption gestalt implies, then you probably want to get reflex saves & a high skill point per level base for the other class.

Still, from what you were thinking, a psion seems the best for you

[Wildstag]

In a Duskblade Gestalt, if PrCs are allowed, I'd say Wizard or other Int-caster would be the best option. PrC into Enlightened Fist to pick up Hold Ray and now you've got two great spell lists and some great rays and touch spells for shenanigans. That's what would be, in my mind, optimal.

What I would actually play is different though. Probably Wizard on one end but PrC into Swiftblade9 on the Wizard side so you can get Perpetual Options and Full Attack Channeling. It's less efficient and loses you three caster levels, but Perpetual Options is just sooooo good.

[Zanos]

It's also RAW for characters to research spells from other lists to have on their list. By RAW a wizard can research an arcane cure wounds spell for example.
Where is this text?

[Darg]

Where is this text?

Under "Researching Original Spells" in the DMG. It even gives you guidelines but not hard and fast rules under "Creating New Spells."

[Zanos]

Under "Researching Original Spells" in the DMG. It even gives you guidelines but not hard and fast rules under "Creating New Spells."
The guidelines under creating new spells specifically say to not do what you said, though:

Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell.

[Darg]

The guidelines under creating new spells specifically say to not do what you said, though:

They are guidelines, not rules. It's also not the only way to get healing spells as an arcane caster so it really isn't relevant to argue about my choice of example.

[AnimeTheCat]

They are guidelines, not rules. It's also not the only way to get healing spells as an arcane caster so it really isn't relevant to argue about my choice of example.

I mean... I agree with you. Bards get Cure X spells as arcane spells anyway, so why can't a wizard or sorcerer get them via researching that class specifically?

[Zarvistic]

I think a Warmage fits really well. With a dex and int focus, enough cha to cast. Could weapon finesse for melee and still be able to throw spells at range effectively. This setup utilizes the full range of spells and class features of both classes. For feats I'd not try to specialize, just pick up good individual ones like knowledge devotion.

[Nifft]

All things being equal, I'd say the best cross is Artificer.

Duskmages are frontline warriors who know spells.

Action economy being what it is, being an artificer so you have the best gear available while you swing a sword or cast a spell seems like the choice option.

Choose to be warforged, and you can even heal yourself.

Artificer is a great option which scales from naive T3-compatible playstyle, to outfitting the whole party & uplifting all of your friends, to being a solo T0 nation-state unto yourself.

[Particle_Man]

With good skills and skill points and a spell list covering options not on the Duskblade list, including non combat options, I think Duskblade and beguiller would mesh well.

[Nihilarian]

Arcane Channeling gets better the more attacks you make so to that end how about Totemist? You could also try and swing Shadow Pounce

[Khedrac]

Arcane Channeling gets better the more attacks you make so to that end how about Totemist? You could also try and swing Shadow Pounce

I don't think that works. Arcane channelling is only good with multiple attacks with the same weapon (once you get the full-round channel ability). Totemists' multiple attacks tend to be with a lot of different weapons (because they are usually natural attacks) which means a maximum of one of them can channel the spell.

[Nihilarian]

I don't think that works. Arcane channelling is only good with multiple attacks with the same weapon (once you get the full-round channel ability). Totemists' multiple attacks tend to be with a lot of different weapons (because they are usually natural attacks) which means a maximum of one of them can channel the spell.
At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.doesn't say anything about the weapon you use.

[Khedrac]

doesn't say anything about the weapon you use.

I sit corrected (at home I have a standing desk so would "stand corrected") - nice spot!

[Nihilarian]

To be fair, by that reading the spell would only affect every target once no matter how many times they got smacked, so maybe getting that many extra attacks isn't actually going to be that useful.

[Nifft]

To be fair, by that reading the spell would only affect every target once no matter how many times they got smacked, so maybe getting that many extra attacks isn't actually going to be that useful.

With some kind of Reach, you might be able to distribute a single spell to a lot of enemies.

But yeah focus-fire is not the point of that feature.

Something like the Arcane Strike feat has better synergy with a lot of natural weapons, and that does support focus-fire.

[Gruftzwerg]

With some kind of Reach, you might be able to distribute a single spell to a lot of enemies.

But yeah focus-fire is not the point of that feature.

Something like the Arcane Strike feat has better synergy with a lot of natural weapons, and that does support focus-fire.

Bloodstorm Blade is the best option here as already mentioned. Combine with Whirlwind to hit all enemies in up to 50ft reach. Have a look a the build I have linked on the first page for an optimized build.

[nedz]

Wizard, Cleric or Druid obviously — but I'd be tempted to go Beguiler.
Well more precisely Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10
This gives you more skill points, 5d6 sneak, good Will saves and more spells of a type you are missing.
You can fill the Rogue role and have high level spells - albeit of a limited type.
Beguiler has a lot of utility spells which are generally useful and plenty of slots to burn on Arcane strike.

[heavyfuel]

I'm rusty on my RAW, but could you use Arcane Channelling when you use a Maneuver? If so, duskblade//warblade (or "Duskwarblade" for short) could make a really nice gish!

[Nihilarian]

I'm rusty on my RAW, but could you use Arcane Channelling when you use a Maneuver? If so, duskblade//warblade (or "Duskwarblade" for short) could make a really nice gish!basic arcane channeling takes its own standard action, while the 13th level one piggybacks off of a full attack action, which is relevant to some maneuvers (like time stands still)

Even if they couldnt use any strikes though, boosts, counters and stances can still be a good enough benefit to consider. That's how people make ToB archers work

[liquidformat]

Bloodstorm Blade is the best option here as already mentioned. Combine with Whirlwind to hit all enemies in up to 50ft reach. Have a look a the build I have linked on the first page for an optimized build.

Hmm I am vaguely intrigued to try a Dervish build on the other side but Dervish Dance does say "a dervish cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require her to remain still, such as Move Silently, Hide, or Search." so I think that means casting a touch attack spell is out? Granted a duskblade does not require using the concentration skill to cast touch spells in combat so might be able to swing it not sure.

What do people think could you Dervish Dance while Arcane channeling (full attack)? If so I am thinking something along the lines of Fighter 2/ swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Dervish10/Blade Dancer 5 on the other side...