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Doresain
2007-11-07, 02:53 PM
for fun, ive been trying to make a character that uses only his fists and what not in combat...thought about makign a monk, but the lawful restriction seems like it would make more of an honor bound warrior rather than a hulking monster...so i thought about making a barbarian instead...now on to the questions:

1)are there any feats that can bump up unarmed strike damage to something higher than a d4 (for non-monks)...i have no books on me and i dont feel like scouring the internet trying to find something like this

2)if not, what would a good balancing factor be for scrapping one of the barbarians existing abilities to get a scaled unarmed strike damage increase? i was thinking of getting rid of DR, but im not completely sold on that idea

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-07, 02:57 PM
Superior unarmed strike from ToB is what you want.

Doresain
2007-11-07, 02:58 PM
they made a superior version of it? i need to start keeping up with the new books

SadisticFishing
2007-11-07, 02:59 PM
an Ex-monk (you retain all abilities)/Drunken Master could be exactly what you're looking for, but you wouldn't be using your fists, more like chairs and stools.

Superior Unarmed Strike [ToB:Bo9S] (Req: Imp US, +3 bab) lets your unarmed damage scale, just not as well as a monk. Alternatively, get a Monk Belt AND Superior US, and you'll be doing 1d10 damage a hit - not too shabby, seeing as how relatively cheap Monk Belt is. You can even grab Improved Natural Attacks, and you'll be doing 2d8. You could definately play this as a barbarian, 2-3 feat investment and 13,000gp. Get good wisdom and don't wear armor, and you're awesome.

You could also go (unarmed) Swordsage, but that doesn't quite seem right for a brawler, as you use a lot of supernatural abilities.

PlatinumJester
2007-11-07, 03:00 PM
Superior Unarmed Strike from ToB and Improved Natural Attack from MM.

Get rid of Medium Armour proficency and remove Martial + Simple Weapon Proficiency and get flurry of blows, monk fist damage and weapon proficiencies. Take the Lion Totem Varient from Complete Champion and get Pounce.

SadisticFishing
2007-11-07, 03:06 PM
Urm, then you're just a FAR better monk.

Draz74
2007-11-07, 03:10 PM
Drunken Master is a brawler, but not an unarmed one.

Barbarian with Superior Unarmed Strike (and maybe even Snap Kick) is a fine idea. Just be sure you don't get Improved Natural Attack, as Monks are the only characters for which INA works on an unarmed strike.

But personally, I don't see anything wrong with the Unarmed-Variant Swordsage suggestion. Sounds fun to me. It would just be a question of ability and maneuver allocation:

- Have good strength rather than Dex, even though this is unusual for a Swordsage, and skip the feats and stuff that make the Swordsage use Dex in place of Str for attacks.

- Pretty much don't pick maneuvers from Desert Wind or Shadow Hand. Make Setting Sun your favorite discipline, and sprinkle in whatever seems appropriate from other disciplines (especially from Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon).

Doresain
2007-11-07, 03:12 PM
Superior Unarmed Strike [ToB:Bo9S] (Req: Imp US, +3 bab) lets your unarmed damage scale, just not as well as a monk. Alternatively, get a Monk Belt AND Superior US, and you'll be doing 1d10 damage a hit - not too shabby, seeing as how relatively cheap Monk Belt is. You can even grab Improved Natural Attacks, and you'll be doing 2d8. You could definately play this as a barbarian, 2-3 feat investment and 13,000gp. Get good wisdom and don't wear armor, and you're awesome.

so far i like this idea

SadisticFishing
2007-11-07, 03:16 PM
Yeah, Setting Sun Swordsage makes sense too, actually, but it wouldn't be a "hit your target with your fist" sort of brawler, it'd be more of a "alright, apply pressure here, remove it here and... bingo! they're on the other side of the room" sort of brawler.

Oh, if you're allowed, take Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana, and/or Snap Kick from ToB. Tons of attacks, at a small penalty (-4 for two extra attacks seems pretty good to me, but I find Whirling Frenzy far too powerful to consider using on a PC [though on bosses it's fine :D], so -2 for an extra hit is good enough).

Why does Improved Natural Attack only work for monks? Out of curiosity, not claiming that you're wrong or anything, yet :P

Darrin
2007-11-07, 03:24 PM
Barbarian with Superior Unarmed Strike (and maybe even Snap Kick) is a fine idea. Just be sure you don't get Improved Natural Attack, as Monks are the only characters for which INA works on an unarmed strike.

But personally, I don't see anything wrong with the Unarmed-Variant Swordsage suggestion. Sounds fun to me. It would just be a question of ability and maneuver allocation:


Fist of the Forest also bumps up unarmed damage two steps in a 3-level PrC (Comp. Champ). Search for Person_Man's "Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!" build for some interesting ideas.

And I'm not entirely sure, but I think Fist of the Forest (and the Unarmed SwordSage variant) gives you the equivalent of a Monk's unarmed strike without forcing you to take monk levels... so a Fist of the Forest or Unarmed SwordSage *could* use Improved Natural Attack in addition to Superior Unarmed Strike.

Anything that increases your size, such as Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Giant's Stance (ToB, Stone Dragon 5), or Powerful Build would increase your unarmed strike damage.

Person_Man
2007-11-07, 03:46 PM
Shifter Monk 3/Psychic Warrior 3/Warshaper 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Psychic Warrior X

A Monk's Belt increases your effective Monk level by 5 levels.

Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) increases your effective Monk level by 4 levels.

Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) increases your unarmed Monk damage by two steps up the Monk scale. Since you're effectively a 12th level Monk, this increases your unarmed damage from 2d6 to 2d10.

Improved Natural Attack increases your effective size for one natural weapon size by one step, from 2d10 to 4d8.

One level of Warshaper increases your effective size of all natural weapons by one step, from 4d8 to 6d8.

Use the augmented version of the Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) power to increase your size by two steps, increasing your unarmed damage from 6d8 to 8d8 to 12d8. If you're playing a mid level game and don't have enough Psychic Warrior levels to use the augmented version, consider picking up the Overchannel feat.

Take Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm. Now whenever you hit an enemy, you get a free Grapple check. If you succeed, you deal Unarmed Strike damage (again) and can finish out your full attack with opposed Grapple checks, dealing unarmed strike damage every time you win.

If you can't be a Shifter, take Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis) instead, which also lets you qualify for Warshaper.

Also, although this method is the most efficient, there are others. Here's the list of stuff. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) Scroll down to Increasing Monk Damage.

If you want to do it without any Monk levels, you can try my Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) build instead. But the damage isn't very impressive.

Also keep in mind that by RAW unarmed strikes are not natural weapons unless you take at least 1 level of Monk. They're just plain unarmed strikes. The Monk Unarmed Strike class feature specifically makes them into Natural Attacks or manufactured weapons. Other classes might give you "Monk damage," but no class I'm aware of other then Monk makes your unarmed attacks natural weapons. So you need to take at least 1 level of Monk if you want to benefit from Warshaper and Improved Natural Attack. I know its confusing, but trust me, that's just the way it is.

cupkeyk
2007-11-07, 04:09 PM
I like combining Hammer Fist(PGtF) and Snap Kick(ToB: Bo9S). I have the belief that initial dice is secondary to modifiers. You lose the flurry option, that you may not have after all but you get 1.5 your str modifier to damage. At barb 3 you get 1d4+(1.5*str mod) twice on a full attack, add twf and that's three attacks. With just one level dip of monk(but more would be okay, four is optimal since your partial bab is at a flat 3.0) you get Decisive Strike. On a full attack with twf and snap kick, thats 2d4+2(1.5*str mod) three times. May nothing survive your fists.

Darrin
2007-11-07, 04:16 PM
Also keep in mind that by RAW unarmed strikes are not natural weapons unless you take at least 1 level of Monk. They're just plain unarmed strikes. The Monk Unarmed Strike class feature specifically makes them into Natural Attacks or manufactured weapons. Other classes might give you "Monk damage," but no class I'm aware of other then Monk makes your unarmed attacks natural weapons. So you need to take at least 1 level of Monk if you want to benefit from Warshaper and Improved Natural Attack. I know its confusing, but trust me, that's just the way it is.

I believe Fist of the Forest should qualify for the same feature. The text in Complete Champion tells you to refer to the description of Monk's Unarmed Strike ability in the PHB, which includes the paragraph about treating the monk's unarmed strikes as both a natural and manufactured weapon. So by RAW, a Fist of the Forest without monk levels should be able to benefit from Improved Natural Attack.

SwordSage I'm not so sure about, but I believe it specifically mentions the Monk's unarmed strike ability rather than just the Improved Unarmed Strike description in the Feats chapter.

Jack Zander
2007-11-07, 04:52 PM
So my natural fists are not natural weapons? Thank God for 4th ed. I'm tired of gay crap like this.

cupkeyk
2007-11-07, 04:57 PM
So my natural fists are not natural weapons? Thank God for 4th ed. I'm tired of gay crap like this.

yay for gender insensitive comments.

Jack Zander
2007-11-07, 05:01 PM
Sorry, excuse my French.

Dairun Cates
2007-11-07, 05:13 PM
I actually did this once with a 14 int fighter.

Improvised Weapon feat from Netbook of feats. It's not official, but it's a reasonable thing for your GM to let you have if you're going brawler. Then take fighter, unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike, blind fight, and whatever else seems fun like power attack and combat expertise. Is it optimized? No. Is it fun? Hell yes.

Doresain
2007-11-08, 01:02 AM
Is it optimized? No. Is it fun? Hell yes.

this is precisely why i want to make a character like this...i got the idea while playing oblivion and watching movies like fight club and the warriors...savagely beating the crap out of your opponents is so much more fun than being all lawful stupid about it

Roderick_BR
2007-11-08, 05:00 AM
If you don't like the flavor of the Setting Sun's style in ToB, you could get Stone Dragon's maneuvers for sheer destructive power. Just one level in one of the classes would be enough to use a special attack 3-4 times each encounter. Stone Dragon is good when you need higher damage with single attacks, or bypass damage reduction.

KillianHawkeye
2007-11-08, 09:13 AM
So my natural fists are not natural weapons?

They are not considered natural weapons because you do not have a natural capability to use them to effectively deal damage (i.e. you require training to do so).

From a rules perspective, unarmed strikes (unlike natural weapons) deal subdual damage normally, and take iterative attacks from high BAB (rather than using a natural attack routine). Ask yourself, would you rather have an improved unarmed strike at +10/+5, or 1 slam at +10?

elliott20
2007-11-08, 09:25 AM
you really could use unarmed strikes with ANY of the ToB disciplines though, so there's no reason to only use it for Setting Sun.

Hell, if you want, you can take a couple levels of warblade after you've built up your IL and start using your fists to do Iron Heart stuff.

Galdor Miriel
2007-11-08, 04:06 PM
Why not worship the brawler, multi class as a barbaran/cleric of Kord, swing a big sword, fists or grapple your heart away with spells like mighteous right, enlarge person etc to keep you viable as yu advance in levels(with the strength domain). Superior unarmed strike, improved grapple, all good.

Its made for a nice back story.