SangoProduction
2021-01-30, 07:03 PM
I really want to make metamagic work with spheres of power. I've not seem one that's particularly helpful. So perhaps a deep dive will prove me wrong.
Post Review Analysis: Huh. You know? There are more here than I realized. Granted a lot are relatively situational, and build-dependent but not bad.
It's been 9 hours. Please send help!
Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(M) Meh: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
Basics
Cost: To use a metamagic feat, the caster must spend a number of additional spell points equal to the level increase of the metamagic feat. This is generally fair.
And note, SoP cantrips are actually really impactful, by comparison. So in quite a lot of cases, especially when you get a good several levels under your belt, you could be more willing to be inefficient for the sake of speed or efficacy.. "Haste makes waste," after all.
Casting Speed: Casting time increases by 1 step. This is quite the kicker, but it's not like spell casters need to full attack. It does mean you can't concentrate as a move action with the boon though.
Quicken Spell, however, doesn't increase casting time.
Conditional Spell (<S+>): Let's just ignore the nonsense about pairing talents, which just isn't explained. And focus on the fact that this is really effective way of going "Hey, if you promise not to hurt us, we'll save your life." And...it has no duration... So you heal someone up from nearly unconscious, you effectively reduce their maximum hit points, if they ever decide to attack you again, due to taking the damage again. Pacifist/Redeemer runs have never been easier. I don't know about its usefulness with the other effects. But if you want to buff someone you don't really trust, and don't mind paying a small premium, sure.
Tenebrous Spell (S+): Dude. A Dark sphere specialist just gets a +2 to CL and +1 to DC (net +2 to DC). For +1 spell point, but that's like nothing. And you don't even need to be a specialist. Just take a few talents.
Consecrate Spell (<S>): Maximize spell, but only against Evil. It's a 1 point savings vs true Maximize, and is, on average, a damage up from Empower, which this is equivalent cost to. So, if you face Evil, here you go.
Piercing Spell (<S>): 2.5x better than Spell Penetration feat. More than you can get with even Greater Spell Penetration. Only costs +1. I don't personally value it too highly, due to SR's relative rarity and the availability of non-SR targeting abilities. But if you want SR Pen, there really is no better place to get it.
Ectoplasmic Spell (<S>): If you regularly face incorporeal foes, then congratulations, here's your answer. Relatively cheap at +1.
Trick Spell (S): Getting a dirty trick as a rider effect to your mind sphere talent, which can explicitly benefit from Dirty Trick feats. For +1 cost. Dude! Totally awesome!
Scarring Spell (S): I think you'd always take this if you've got spell points to spare, and are a fear-caster. So, by definition, it is S tier.
Shadow Grasp (S): Again, for most Dark sphere builds, after you can grant immunity to your darkness effects, this is pretty free. Ignoring the prereqs.
Dazing Spell (G-S): Chance to daze is pretty massive. Chance to daze for multiple rounds even more so. +3 is worth a lot of spells, though. But it's probably worth it, if you have them.
Disruptive Spell (<G-S>): For +1 spell point, you force a concentration check of DC = half your caster level, again + the save DC of your spell, in order to cast. That's kind of crippling. And it comes awfully cheap. Probably useful even if you just occasionally run into mages.
Umbral Spell (G-S): For when you want your darkness to last hours/level rather than minutes. Can you believe there's a metamagic that that makes your casting more efficient? Not an incredible effect, granted. Best use is for implicitly enabling Tenebrous Spell without environment reliance.
Encouraging Spell (I): The talent benefiting most from this is the Courage (Mind) talent, getting to be a positive Sickened effect for a good minute/level, for just +1 spell point. But generally, it's less efficient and all-reaching than that. I don't know where that places this on the whole. Probably pretty good.
Lingering Spell (G): You know? Probably better than I'm giving credit for. Creating an area denial fog effect out of any spell is pretty good.
Empower Spell (G): Basically the gold standard blasting metamagic. I think it's actually subpar in SoP, due to just how inefficient it is, but it does increase your DPR. And there are some non-blast effects that can benefit, though this is still relatively inefficient. But others consider it good, so I'm plopping it here as an anchor point for the rest of the feats.
Maximize Spell (G): Also considered one of the golden standard blasting metamagics, and also has tangential uses as well. But at +3 it's really inefficient. But average damage is roughly 1/2 max damage, so this is +100% expected damage compared to +50% for Empower Spell, for only +3 vs +2. So I dunno. I'll sit it right by Empower spell.
Quicken Spell (G): Oh boy. The king of inefficiency at +4. And for good reason. You get 2 or 3 spells off in a turn with this.
Focusing Spell (G): More flexible than Sphere Focus. Twice the effect too. But comes with reducing AoE to 1 target (occasionally not a bad thing, but for many sphere effects takes at least +1 spell point and talent), but also +1 spell point. So yeah. Good. Not incredible.
Toxic Spell (G): There are some good poisons out there that you wouldn't mind using. Especially if you had Creation sphere to create a bunch for free. And perhaps they make good rider effects. You can find specific examples for yourself
Seeking Spell (G, F): So long as you have decent range, this is rarely not better than Burrowing Magic, while being cheaper, and avoiding concealment which can normally be pretty hard to overcome. It's also a way to just incite the most absolute panic and paranoia in whatever poor NPC you decide to torment.
Solar Spell (<G>): It's a very targeted metamagic, with relatively mild effects against not-preferred targets. But an unnamed Sickened effect vs all Undead (and a few other targets). So...neat. No duration - just stay in the area. For +1.
Aquatic Spell (<G>): I know of precisely 0 spheres that specifically don't work against water, or because of water. If your DM is deeming some of your primary spheres as being so, and you regularly encounter that problem, and have nothing else you want to do with your actions, then sure. It's only +1.
Horrifying Imagination (G): +1 SP for shaken, or +2 for frightened. Both solid options for fair prices. But they must make a will save in addition to being hit by the effect, to be affected.
Concussive Spell (G): An unnamed sickened effect, as a rider to sonic damage. Sonic damage is pretty hard to get in spheres. Or in general. And don't tend to, themselves, be particularly good. So this is really just patching a hole with +2 spell points. But it works if you're enamored with said effect.
Toppling Spell (<M-G>): Trip is good. The modifier you get for the attempt is very lackluster. But it's only +1.
Fleeting Spell (<I>): I'm really having a difficult time coming up with cases where you want this, but not Conditional Spell, and not on a sphere that can have duration concentration. But I'm assuming that if there are cases, then this is decent.
Enlarging Spell (<M-G>): This is more "talent-efficient" than taking Range+ upgrades, if you possess a multitude of spheres. But it comes at a premium in terms of spell points. Oh, and you have to spend a feat rather than talent on this, and feats are slightly more precious and flexible.
Delayed Magic (I): Basically for an Alpha Strike. I don't like it.
Suppressed Spell (M-G, F): "Why do I feel sick, without 'feeling' sick? Who did this! Was it that guy who just stood there...menacingly?" If you've got a good number of sensory talents, it can be really difficult for them to even detect that you were the source of the effect. And might run into hostile effects But +2 for such a bonus is...eh. I mean it's cool, don't get me wrong.
Thanatopic Spell (<M-G>): Not ranked higher, because the method of fighting Undead is highly inefficient, even without the +2 SP modifier.
Coaxing / Threndonic Spell (<M-G>): There are a couple sphere that can't target mindless. This is putting quite a premium on the ability to do that. But if you really don't want to dip Destruction sphere to handle them (with the feat you're using to take this), or you played an Enchanter in an automaton campaign, sure. Best to ask for the advanced talent that does this for free, all in 1 talent though.
Selective Spell (M): If you are addicted to fireball, and refuse to use anything but fireball, even in tight, enclosed spaces...go ahead. I guess.
Widen Spell (M): When your first word is "meh," when you read something, it probably deserves to go in this category. +100% AoE's dimension of measurement. +3 spell points. Generally absurdly overkill. And that's the same cost as Maximize Spell.
Align Spell (<M>): Really bloody wordy, and tries too hard to overcomplicate itself. Its best case scenario is when you're an all good party, facing an essentially all-evil enemy (or reverse that), and you really want to only use AoE without thinking about your allies. Without that best case, it's basically empowered...but you can only use it against your targeted alignment.
Merciful Spell (<M>, F): For when you can't make custom blast types, and don't want to take the really disappointing preconstructed nonlethal blast types.
Reach Spell (<M>): Affects touch range spells, and is a more effective range increase than Enlarging spell, but at +2, spell points, one really has to consider the relative value of taking so many spheres that you need this.
Fearsome Spell (M): Shaken as a rider effect. What's not to love? The short duration and +2 spell points? Fair point. But how long is a fight really going to go on. If you're level 6, you'll probably keep it up most of a fight. But probably against relative mooks who didn't need this expense.
Sickening Spell (M): Same as Fearsome spell.
Cascade Spell (M): Meh. Emergency buffing.
Burrowing Magic (M): I'm putting it here, because I'm sure there's some use out there. But for a +3, that's got to be a real strong use.
Extend Spell (M): Most duration effects in spheres cost no more than 1 spell point, making it equally efficient to just...cast it again. And you aren't forced into consecutive time periods, and you don't spend a feat. But there are some ways to point spell point cost to make this more worthwhile.
Flaring Spell (N-M): -1 to hit really isn't impressive. And it only works for certain effects, for a very short duration. But it is only +1 spell point.
Brisk Spell (N-M): Huh. I didn't think a +0 could be bad. But you get what you pay for. Not counting the feat.
Rime Spell (N-M): Entangled is cool (hah). But short duration, and limited exclusively to cold-damaging spells.
Bouncing Spell (N-M): Only a +1, but you spend it before you know that you fail to hit the spell. And if you manage to hit, then you wasted the spell point. I hate it on principle. Probably not horrible if you're regularly running into spell resistance groups, and you really don't want to use non-spell resistance-targeting effects.
Contingent Spell (N-M): You know... Life sphere has a talent that does this... for hours/level... and doesn't even cost a spell point. OK sure, it's slightly, slightly less flexible, and takes a swift action. But... I guess if you have massive foreknowledge of the conditions your foes use, and combine this with a <Mass> talent, it has a use.
Tenacious Spell (N-M): This is light counter to a very specific usage of a mage in the game. Well, I guess for blasts, it's a straight "No, go away." But even immunity to dispel is niche among niches. Like having immunity to Bull's Strength.
Elemental Spell (N-M): Instead of spending the feat here, you could just get a new blast type. But...I guess if there's a particular debuff you are enamored with, but want damage flex, and don't mind paying a premium for it... I guess... it's fine. Sorta. Not really.
Traumatic Spell (N-M, F): Wow. Um. Mean.
Furious Spell (N, F): Miniscule damage. Extremely niche effect. Its only use it to look cool while casting, by frothing at the mouth.
Habit Forming (N): While it's bad for you to experience, as it builds up and is really difficult to get rid of, and there are so many better drawback options, the effect is a relatively mild debuff when used as an attack.
Thundering Spell (N): Deafened is a mostly pointless debuff. The cost and duration is just insult to that injury.
Studied Spell (N): Really not the most incredible damage increase. Especially as you can instead take a different blast type, or even Elemental Spell, and avoid the +2, and face no skill checks.
Burning Spell (N-): Wow. A delayed CL damage for 2 spell points. That's impressively bad.
Contagious Spell (C-): I think this is the first time I've seen something that can be cheesed against, using its own rules. I hate the line that prevents its spread, if they would benefit from being the target of the talent. Because that can be so easily abused to make this +2 metamagic absolutely worthless. Even if the base effect were actually decent...which...honestly. The thing it prevents really is just a bad <Mass> talent that requires everyone to also take Counterspell and intentionally fail at counterspelling. That's not an impressive attempt at cheese.
Snuffing Spell (N-): ... No.
Intuitive / Logical / Still / Silent Spell (N-): Either suck it up and eat the penalty, or don't take the drawback. This feat could have been spent on Extra Spell Points rather than partially fixing a drawback.
Post Review Analysis: Huh. You know? There are more here than I realized. Granted a lot are relatively situational, and build-dependent but not bad.
It's been 9 hours. Please send help!
Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(M) Meh: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
Basics
Cost: To use a metamagic feat, the caster must spend a number of additional spell points equal to the level increase of the metamagic feat. This is generally fair.
And note, SoP cantrips are actually really impactful, by comparison. So in quite a lot of cases, especially when you get a good several levels under your belt, you could be more willing to be inefficient for the sake of speed or efficacy.. "Haste makes waste," after all.
Casting Speed: Casting time increases by 1 step. This is quite the kicker, but it's not like spell casters need to full attack. It does mean you can't concentrate as a move action with the boon though.
Quicken Spell, however, doesn't increase casting time.
Conditional Spell (<S+>): Let's just ignore the nonsense about pairing talents, which just isn't explained. And focus on the fact that this is really effective way of going "Hey, if you promise not to hurt us, we'll save your life." And...it has no duration... So you heal someone up from nearly unconscious, you effectively reduce their maximum hit points, if they ever decide to attack you again, due to taking the damage again. Pacifist/Redeemer runs have never been easier. I don't know about its usefulness with the other effects. But if you want to buff someone you don't really trust, and don't mind paying a small premium, sure.
Tenebrous Spell (S+): Dude. A Dark sphere specialist just gets a +2 to CL and +1 to DC (net +2 to DC). For +1 spell point, but that's like nothing. And you don't even need to be a specialist. Just take a few talents.
Consecrate Spell (<S>): Maximize spell, but only against Evil. It's a 1 point savings vs true Maximize, and is, on average, a damage up from Empower, which this is equivalent cost to. So, if you face Evil, here you go.
Piercing Spell (<S>): 2.5x better than Spell Penetration feat. More than you can get with even Greater Spell Penetration. Only costs +1. I don't personally value it too highly, due to SR's relative rarity and the availability of non-SR targeting abilities. But if you want SR Pen, there really is no better place to get it.
Ectoplasmic Spell (<S>): If you regularly face incorporeal foes, then congratulations, here's your answer. Relatively cheap at +1.
Trick Spell (S): Getting a dirty trick as a rider effect to your mind sphere talent, which can explicitly benefit from Dirty Trick feats. For +1 cost. Dude! Totally awesome!
Scarring Spell (S): I think you'd always take this if you've got spell points to spare, and are a fear-caster. So, by definition, it is S tier.
Shadow Grasp (S): Again, for most Dark sphere builds, after you can grant immunity to your darkness effects, this is pretty free. Ignoring the prereqs.
Dazing Spell (G-S): Chance to daze is pretty massive. Chance to daze for multiple rounds even more so. +3 is worth a lot of spells, though. But it's probably worth it, if you have them.
Disruptive Spell (<G-S>): For +1 spell point, you force a concentration check of DC = half your caster level, again + the save DC of your spell, in order to cast. That's kind of crippling. And it comes awfully cheap. Probably useful even if you just occasionally run into mages.
Umbral Spell (G-S): For when you want your darkness to last hours/level rather than minutes. Can you believe there's a metamagic that that makes your casting more efficient? Not an incredible effect, granted. Best use is for implicitly enabling Tenebrous Spell without environment reliance.
Encouraging Spell (I): The talent benefiting most from this is the Courage (Mind) talent, getting to be a positive Sickened effect for a good minute/level, for just +1 spell point. But generally, it's less efficient and all-reaching than that. I don't know where that places this on the whole. Probably pretty good.
Lingering Spell (G): You know? Probably better than I'm giving credit for. Creating an area denial fog effect out of any spell is pretty good.
Empower Spell (G): Basically the gold standard blasting metamagic. I think it's actually subpar in SoP, due to just how inefficient it is, but it does increase your DPR. And there are some non-blast effects that can benefit, though this is still relatively inefficient. But others consider it good, so I'm plopping it here as an anchor point for the rest of the feats.
Maximize Spell (G): Also considered one of the golden standard blasting metamagics, and also has tangential uses as well. But at +3 it's really inefficient. But average damage is roughly 1/2 max damage, so this is +100% expected damage compared to +50% for Empower Spell, for only +3 vs +2. So I dunno. I'll sit it right by Empower spell.
Quicken Spell (G): Oh boy. The king of inefficiency at +4. And for good reason. You get 2 or 3 spells off in a turn with this.
Focusing Spell (G): More flexible than Sphere Focus. Twice the effect too. But comes with reducing AoE to 1 target (occasionally not a bad thing, but for many sphere effects takes at least +1 spell point and talent), but also +1 spell point. So yeah. Good. Not incredible.
Toxic Spell (G): There are some good poisons out there that you wouldn't mind using. Especially if you had Creation sphere to create a bunch for free. And perhaps they make good rider effects. You can find specific examples for yourself
Seeking Spell (G, F): So long as you have decent range, this is rarely not better than Burrowing Magic, while being cheaper, and avoiding concealment which can normally be pretty hard to overcome. It's also a way to just incite the most absolute panic and paranoia in whatever poor NPC you decide to torment.
Solar Spell (<G>): It's a very targeted metamagic, with relatively mild effects against not-preferred targets. But an unnamed Sickened effect vs all Undead (and a few other targets). So...neat. No duration - just stay in the area. For +1.
Aquatic Spell (<G>): I know of precisely 0 spheres that specifically don't work against water, or because of water. If your DM is deeming some of your primary spheres as being so, and you regularly encounter that problem, and have nothing else you want to do with your actions, then sure. It's only +1.
Horrifying Imagination (G): +1 SP for shaken, or +2 for frightened. Both solid options for fair prices. But they must make a will save in addition to being hit by the effect, to be affected.
Concussive Spell (G): An unnamed sickened effect, as a rider to sonic damage. Sonic damage is pretty hard to get in spheres. Or in general. And don't tend to, themselves, be particularly good. So this is really just patching a hole with +2 spell points. But it works if you're enamored with said effect.
Toppling Spell (<M-G>): Trip is good. The modifier you get for the attempt is very lackluster. But it's only +1.
Fleeting Spell (<I>): I'm really having a difficult time coming up with cases where you want this, but not Conditional Spell, and not on a sphere that can have duration concentration. But I'm assuming that if there are cases, then this is decent.
Enlarging Spell (<M-G>): This is more "talent-efficient" than taking Range+ upgrades, if you possess a multitude of spheres. But it comes at a premium in terms of spell points. Oh, and you have to spend a feat rather than talent on this, and feats are slightly more precious and flexible.
Delayed Magic (I): Basically for an Alpha Strike. I don't like it.
Suppressed Spell (M-G, F): "Why do I feel sick, without 'feeling' sick? Who did this! Was it that guy who just stood there...menacingly?" If you've got a good number of sensory talents, it can be really difficult for them to even detect that you were the source of the effect. And might run into hostile effects But +2 for such a bonus is...eh. I mean it's cool, don't get me wrong.
Thanatopic Spell (<M-G>): Not ranked higher, because the method of fighting Undead is highly inefficient, even without the +2 SP modifier.
Coaxing / Threndonic Spell (<M-G>): There are a couple sphere that can't target mindless. This is putting quite a premium on the ability to do that. But if you really don't want to dip Destruction sphere to handle them (with the feat you're using to take this), or you played an Enchanter in an automaton campaign, sure. Best to ask for the advanced talent that does this for free, all in 1 talent though.
Selective Spell (M): If you are addicted to fireball, and refuse to use anything but fireball, even in tight, enclosed spaces...go ahead. I guess.
Widen Spell (M): When your first word is "meh," when you read something, it probably deserves to go in this category. +100% AoE's dimension of measurement. +3 spell points. Generally absurdly overkill. And that's the same cost as Maximize Spell.
Align Spell (<M>): Really bloody wordy, and tries too hard to overcomplicate itself. Its best case scenario is when you're an all good party, facing an essentially all-evil enemy (or reverse that), and you really want to only use AoE without thinking about your allies. Without that best case, it's basically empowered...but you can only use it against your targeted alignment.
Merciful Spell (<M>, F): For when you can't make custom blast types, and don't want to take the really disappointing preconstructed nonlethal blast types.
Reach Spell (<M>): Affects touch range spells, and is a more effective range increase than Enlarging spell, but at +2, spell points, one really has to consider the relative value of taking so many spheres that you need this.
Fearsome Spell (M): Shaken as a rider effect. What's not to love? The short duration and +2 spell points? Fair point. But how long is a fight really going to go on. If you're level 6, you'll probably keep it up most of a fight. But probably against relative mooks who didn't need this expense.
Sickening Spell (M): Same as Fearsome spell.
Cascade Spell (M): Meh. Emergency buffing.
Burrowing Magic (M): I'm putting it here, because I'm sure there's some use out there. But for a +3, that's got to be a real strong use.
Extend Spell (M): Most duration effects in spheres cost no more than 1 spell point, making it equally efficient to just...cast it again. And you aren't forced into consecutive time periods, and you don't spend a feat. But there are some ways to point spell point cost to make this more worthwhile.
Flaring Spell (N-M): -1 to hit really isn't impressive. And it only works for certain effects, for a very short duration. But it is only +1 spell point.
Brisk Spell (N-M): Huh. I didn't think a +0 could be bad. But you get what you pay for. Not counting the feat.
Rime Spell (N-M): Entangled is cool (hah). But short duration, and limited exclusively to cold-damaging spells.
Bouncing Spell (N-M): Only a +1, but you spend it before you know that you fail to hit the spell. And if you manage to hit, then you wasted the spell point. I hate it on principle. Probably not horrible if you're regularly running into spell resistance groups, and you really don't want to use non-spell resistance-targeting effects.
Contingent Spell (N-M): You know... Life sphere has a talent that does this... for hours/level... and doesn't even cost a spell point. OK sure, it's slightly, slightly less flexible, and takes a swift action. But... I guess if you have massive foreknowledge of the conditions your foes use, and combine this with a <Mass> talent, it has a use.
Tenacious Spell (N-M): This is light counter to a very specific usage of a mage in the game. Well, I guess for blasts, it's a straight "No, go away." But even immunity to dispel is niche among niches. Like having immunity to Bull's Strength.
Elemental Spell (N-M): Instead of spending the feat here, you could just get a new blast type. But...I guess if there's a particular debuff you are enamored with, but want damage flex, and don't mind paying a premium for it... I guess... it's fine. Sorta. Not really.
Traumatic Spell (N-M, F): Wow. Um. Mean.
Furious Spell (N, F): Miniscule damage. Extremely niche effect. Its only use it to look cool while casting, by frothing at the mouth.
Habit Forming (N): While it's bad for you to experience, as it builds up and is really difficult to get rid of, and there are so many better drawback options, the effect is a relatively mild debuff when used as an attack.
Thundering Spell (N): Deafened is a mostly pointless debuff. The cost and duration is just insult to that injury.
Studied Spell (N): Really not the most incredible damage increase. Especially as you can instead take a different blast type, or even Elemental Spell, and avoid the +2, and face no skill checks.
Burning Spell (N-): Wow. A delayed CL damage for 2 spell points. That's impressively bad.
Contagious Spell (C-): I think this is the first time I've seen something that can be cheesed against, using its own rules. I hate the line that prevents its spread, if they would benefit from being the target of the talent. Because that can be so easily abused to make this +2 metamagic absolutely worthless. Even if the base effect were actually decent...which...honestly. The thing it prevents really is just a bad <Mass> talent that requires everyone to also take Counterspell and intentionally fail at counterspelling. That's not an impressive attempt at cheese.
Snuffing Spell (N-): ... No.
Intuitive / Logical / Still / Silent Spell (N-): Either suck it up and eat the penalty, or don't take the drawback. This feat could have been spent on Extra Spell Points rather than partially fixing a drawback.