Optimization Knowing it All: Optimizing Knowledge Checks [Archive]

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Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 04:47 AM

Hello, friends! I decided to try my hand at optimizing knowledge checks as early as possible, and then capitalizing on that knowledge check as much as possible. With the notable exclusion of that one Insane Defiance/Elder Evil knowledge-check abuse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22032906&postcount=115), I quite like how the character turned out; please let me know if you have any ideas for other modes to use knowledges, or ways to increase our knowledge check without losing caster levels. :smallsmile:

http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/resource/images/classes/101120.jpg

Magic-Blooded
Half-Elf

Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final

Str
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8

Dex
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8

Con
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8

Int
18
18
+1
+1
-
-
-
20

Wis
14
12
-
-
+1
-
-
13

Cha
16
18

+1
+1
20

HD
Class
BAB
Base Fort Save
Base Ref Save
Base Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1
Bardic Sage
+0
+0
+2
+2
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 4, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4
Favored (League of Eyes)
Bardic music (1 use, 3 rounds), bardic knowledge +3, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1

2
Dragonfire Adept
+0
+2
+2
+4
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature) 5, Knowledge (Planes/Religion) 4, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4
Dragontouched
Breath weapon 1d6, Dragontouched, least invocations (Draconic Knowledge)

3
Ardent
+0
+2
+2
+6
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature) 6, Knowledge (Planes/Religion) 5, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4
Knowledge Devotion
Assume psionic mantles (Knowledge/Time; Call to Mind, Detect Psionics)

4
Half-Elf Paragon
+0
+2
+4
+6
Knowledge (Local) 8, Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering) 7, Knowledge (Nature/Planes/Religion) 6, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 7, Sense Motive 4
Primary Contact
Divided ancestry, elven vision

5
Urban Savant
+0
+2
+6
+8
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 8, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 8, Sense Motive 4

Urban savvy (strengths)

6
Urban Savant
+1
+2
+7
+9
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 9, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 2, Perform 9, Sense Motive 4
Research
Urban empathy

7
Urban Savant
+1
+3
+7
+9
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 10, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 4, Perform 10, Sense Motive 4
-
Continuing education +1

8
Urban Savant
+2
+3
+8
+10
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 11, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 9, Perform 10, Sense Motive 4
-
Urban savvy (weaknesses)

9
Mindbender
+2
+5
+8
+12
Knowledge (Arcana) 12, Knowledge (Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 11, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 9, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4
Mindsight
Telepathy

10
Urban Savant
+2
+5
+8
+12
Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 11, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
-
Eyes of the city (low-light vision)

11
Sublime Chord
+2
+5
+8
+14
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes) 13, Knowledge (Religion) 12, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
-
Bardic lore +4, bardic music (1 use, 3 rounds)

12
Urban Savant
+3
+6
+9
+15
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes) 15, Knowledge (Religion) 13, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
Vatic Gaze
Continuing education +2

13
Urban Savant
+3
+6
+9
+15
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 16, Bluff 4, Concentration 3, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
-
Urban savvy (methods)

14
Urban Savant
+4
+6
+10
+16
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 17, Bluff 4, Concentration 8, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
-
Eyes of the city (pierce deception)

15
Paragnostic Apostle
+4
+6
+10
+18
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 18, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 6
Psionic Meditation
Knowledge is power (manifest ethos), lore +6

16
Paragnostic Apostle
+5
+6
+10
+19
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 19, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 9
-
Knowledge is power (manifest ethos), lore +8

17
Paragnostic Apostle
+5
+7
+11
+19
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 20, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 12
-
Knowledge is power (penetrating insight), lore +10

18
Paragnostic Apostle
+6
+7
+11
+20
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 21, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 15
Practiced Spellcaster
Knowledge is power (backhanded attack), lore +12

19
Urban Savant
+6
+8
+11
+20
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 22, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 20
-
Continuing education +3

20
Urban Savant
+7
+8
+12
+21
Knowledge (Arcana/Local/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religion) 23, Bluff 4, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 9, Spellcraft 20
-
Urban savvy (true nature)

Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2/4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
2/4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
2/4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
2/4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
3/5
0/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
3/6
1/3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
3/6
2/3
0/2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
3/6
3/4
1/3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
3/6
3/4
2/3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
2/3
1/1
-
-
-
-

12th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
2/4
2/2
-
-
-
-

13th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
3/4
2/2
1/1
-
-
-

14th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
3/4
3/3
2/2
-
-
-

15th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
3/4
3/3
2/2
1/1
-
-

16th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
4/4
3/4
3/3
2/2
-
-

17th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
4/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1
-

18th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
4/4
4/4
3/4
3/3
2/2
-

19th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
4/4
4/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1

20th
3/6
3/4
2/4
0/2
4/4
4/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1

Key Details and Justification for Class Choices

We start out as a bardic sage for the bardic music feature and the skill points. Taking 10 on our knowledge check, we have 18 on any topic. This is functional as any level 1 bard is. We are in more of a support role at this point. Since we can make the knowledge check to find them, our membership in the League of Eyes is in our background to save on adventuring time.

Our dip into Dragonfire Adept gives us an at-will breath weapon, so we have a more powerful way to contribute to combat than pinging folks with crossbow bolts. With the addition of our invocation, our knowledges when taking 10 jump up to 25; we can afford masterwork tools for each knowledge, too, bumping that up to a 27.

Our level in Ardent gets us a boost to initiative, a boost to our knowledge check, and a reroll with a bonus. As needed, we can take 10 to hit a 37 (or 33 without the reroll). We also get Knowledge Devotion here, so we can get +5 to attack and damage rolls against any given opponent. We may have -1 strength modifier, and we may have no BAB, but this brings us up to viability in early-game combat as needed.

Our level in Half-Elf Paragon lets us take Primary Contact to enter Urban Savant one level earlier than usual; this is probably the weakest point in the build, but from here on out we only drop one caster level, so things should be on the up and up.

Finally, we enter Urban Savant and begin our life as a walking encyclopedia, able to provide BAB/AC/combat feats/special attacks/options. We can no longer take 10 on our knowledge checks, but our results should be between 30-49, so there isn't a risk of failure. We can afford a Headband of Intellect to raise it further, too. We also advance our spellcasting at long last.

With our massive knowledge check, Urban Empathy is a yes-level diplomacy check. Even making a rushed check against a hostile foe will automatically end the combat; against an unfriendly foe, we'll soon be able to guarantee a friendly result. Research, a fluffy feat, should also enable us to learn anything in-setting we could possibly want when coupled with our massive knowledge check.

We can now afford a notable item: the Scrolls of Uncertain Providence. These provide a +5 o all knowledge checks, bringing our minimum roll to 35, or 44 if we take 10.

The encyclopedia adds a new chapter, revealing HD, DR qualities, saves, and special weaknesses. We basically just get to see the creature's statblock.

With a dip in Mindbender, we can now telepathically convey all the information we gain. Additionally, Mindsight reveals creatures' types and intelligence scores and, notably, allows us to become "aware" of any creatures within 60 feet of us even without line of sight in order to use our Urban Savvy on them. This will help compensate for our low spot check, too.

Closest thing we've had to a dead level in a while, but we still advance casting, hitting 3rds!

Now we leapfrog over bardic spellcasting progression into Sublime Chord progression, advancing our bardic knowledge for the first time ever. This puts us on track to get 9ths.

Vatic Gaze gives us the ability to assess folks in more detail, also assessing their spellcasting ability and any spells active on their person.

Now we can buff our allies' damage by 3d6; in addition to our bardic music, we will bestow large buffs. Knowledge is power, but power is also nice on its own.

Pierce Deception gives us the ability to no-sell any disguise with a DC20 arcana check; a DC30 tells us exactly how they are disguised. This is the closest to DWotC most PCs will get to.

From here on out, we advance our spellcasting, dipping Paragnostic Apostle for flavor, casting buffs, and advancing our bardic knowledge to a semi-useful point. We finish our Urban Savant to remain eligible for epic progression, too, and hit our 9ths at level 19. Practiced Spellcaster restores us to our full caster level, and Psionic Meditation les us use our Knowledge mantle buff multiple times more easily. We've also avoided any xp penalties throughout, which is satisfying.

Zarvistic

2021-01-31, 01:17 PM

Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 02:11 PM

I like cloistered cleric straight into paragnostic apostle. You can get a huge lore bonus at low levels, advance turning, full casting and knowledge devotion comes for free. Just feels a lot more efficient than spending a lot of feats or dipping, even tho bonus won't be as high for knowledge checks. Also can enter it pretty clean at level 3 with a lesser aasimar or something similar. Maybe worth considering for when you're not going to reach high levels.

Cloistered Cleric was a strong option I considered for the free Knowledge Devotion; Archivist also offers another mode for knowledge, and Marshal offers another way to get a bonus to knowledge. Ultimately, I wasn't sure it was worth delaying access to Urban Savant to include them, so I sacrificed the feat slot in lieu of Cloistered Cleric, and I kept the untyped bonuses to knowledge (from DFA and Ardent respectively) in lieu of the party buff to attack rolls against magical beasts, aberrations, undead, outsiders, and elementals. I wasn't going to advance the divine casting, I had access to Knowledge Devotion by a level later anyway, and I figured the attack roll boost was less valuable if I didn't plan on eating all those Archivist-specific feats to expand the usage to dragons, constructs, giants, and fey. I don't believe RAW allows our boosts to knowledges to interact nicely with bardic knowledge/lore, nor for our bk/lore to interact nicely with Knowledge Devotion/Urban Savant, so it's a nice secondary benefit, but I'm not sure it's worth rushing into our valuable early-game build slots.

Of course, you didn't seem to be discussing it in the context of using it with Urban Savant; you seemed to be bringing it up as an alternative build entirely. As I pointed out above, the knowledge bonuses are less significant, but advancing casting earlier would, of course, be more potent in the short-term; on that note, though, we could just go straight Wizard for better casting regardless.

Cygnia

2021-01-31, 02:17 PM

No Collector of Stories skill trick?

Anthrowhale

2021-01-31, 02:40 PM

Guidance of the Avatar + Divine Insight makes the cleric list pretty compelling for maximum knowledge checks from level 3+ as you can average knowledge checks in the 40s. If you are an arcane disciple cleric, an archivist with good scroll access, or a cleric with the spell domain, you can also access Improvisation which becomes more and more compelling over time. By level 10, you are looking at a check of 81=+6(stat)+13(ranks)+20(Guidance of the Avatar)+15(Divine Insight)+5(Improvisation)+20(Surge of Fortune)+2(tool), although you'll need to be an RKV to access Surge of Fortune + Divine Insight at the same time.

Combining this with Urban Savant is trickier, but it's technically possible using Maho-Tsukai to turn a divine caster into an arcane caster and then advance Maho-Tsukai casting via Urban Savant while retaining access to the original divine list.

Doctor Despair

2021-01-31, 05:03 PM

No Collector of Stories skill trick?

We partially replicate that with Call to Mind at level 2, and then obviate it with the purchase of the Scrolls of Uncertain Providence. I still would have included it, but ranks are actually really tight to meet all the prc prerequisites while keeping the relevant knowledges maxed.

Guidance of the Avatar + Divine Insight makes the cleric list pretty compelling for maximum knowledge checks from level 3+ as you can average knowledge checks in the 40s. If you are an arcane disciple cleric, an archivist with good scroll access, or a cleric with the spell domain, you can also access Improvisation which becomes more and more compelling over time. By level 10, you are looking at a check of 81=+6(stat)+13(ranks)+20(Guidance of the Avatar)+15(Divine Insight)+5(Improvisation)+20(Surge of Fortune)+2(tool), although you'll need to be an RKV to access Surge of Fortune + Divine Insight at the same time.

Combining this with Urban Savant is trickier, but it's technically possible using Maho-Tsukai to turn a divine caster into an arcane caster and then advance Maho-Tsukai casting via Urban Savant while retaining access to the original divine list.

Those two spells are accessible via Eternal Wands, but you're right that native access would be better. We could slip in two levels of Wyrm Wizard to that effect, but I think it may be more efficient to bite the bullet on Archivist 8b lieu of Half-Elf Paragon, throw in Versatile Spellcaster, and delay Urban Savant access by one level. This also means we need not be a Half-Elf anymore, so that changes things considerably... I'll post with a revision soon

Saintheart

2021-01-31, 10:42 PM

Until you've got Divine Insight up - or heck, even with Divine Insight - seriously consider Lore of the Gods, which gives you a flat +10 insight bonus to all Knowledge checks for several hours if your god has Knowledge has one of his domains. It's often overlooked because Divine Insight can match it, but I find Lore of the Gods' utility a lot better at level 10 and below since it's always on, meaning the Knowledge Devotion know-it-all can pull it out in every fight rather than have to cast Divine Insight every time. Best of all, it even synergises with Guidance of the Avatar.

ShurikVch

2021-02-01, 01:37 PM

Troacctid

2021-02-01, 01:44 PM

I would personally use marshal for early entry instead of half-elf paragon.

Ramza00

2021-02-01, 02:05 PM

Wizard / Archivist with early entry Illumian Mystic Theurge, Improved Sigil Krau, and the Spell Mastery / Uncanny Forethought. Or Bard / Archivist. Regardless you want 2nd level divine spells.

Lore of the Gods for Insight +10 to Knowledge Checks. Divine Insight for other skills or if your CL is 6 or higher.
Guidance of the Avatar is Competence Bonus +20 to a skill. Duration is 1 minute.
Skillful Moment, a Bard / Wizard / Sorc 1st level spell allows you to take 20 on a skill the round after casting it.

You can eventually go into Urban Savant.

MultitudeMan

2021-02-01, 02:57 PM

Would knowing literally everything at level 4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?329040-Famous-Optimized-Character-Builds-Archive&p=16917909#post16917909) count?

daremetoidareyo

2021-02-01, 03:44 PM

Here is the weaponized knowledge history check build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22032906&postcount=115) using the killing frost of gurlurak from DMG2 or PHB2 I forget which.

It's one of my favorite losing entries.

Doctor Despair

2021-02-02, 12:01 AM

Since you're decided to discard the Half-Elf Paragon, how about to change the race as well?
Say, Synad (Complete Psionic) gains +2 on all Knowledge checks
Or Aelfborn (Dragon #307) got +2 Int (with LA +0) and gain bonus Skill Focus (Knowledge) feat every 5 levels

Absent Minded (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#absentMinded) trait

Spells:
Demoncall (Fiendish Codex I): +10 profane bonus on any one skill check involving Knowledge (arcana, the planes, or religion); 2nd-level for Blackguard or Demonic domain
Anamensis (Dragon #338): +10 unnamed bonus on any one Knowledge check; Bard 3 or Sorcerer/Wizard 4

Personally, I think the best choice is between Human/Strongheart Halfling (bonus feat) or Sage Gnome (+2 int, +2 to all knowledge checks). Synad requires you to use a power point each time to get the bonus, so it's of limited use, and Aelfborn is dragon, which I've successfully avoided thusfar (although it is definitely worthy of consideration).

I would personally use marshal for early entry instead of half-elf paragon.

You know, somehow it that trick slipped my mind; I'd forgotten about using it in any other context than using the Chameleon floating bonus feat to cheese it. Funny how the mind puts things in a box like that at times. It makes us a bit more feat-hungry early (basically giving us a three-feat-tax to enter Urban Savant one level early), but Primary Contact isn't completely useless, at least. That makes Human the optimal choice for race, I think, given the bonus feat and how skill-hungry the build has become given all the knowledge ranks it wants.

Would knowing literally everything at level 4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?329040-Famous-Optimized-Character-Builds-Archive&p=16917909#post16917909) count?

I love that build, and I'm glad it's in the comments of this thread, but I'm moreso trying to fine-tune a build without infinites. :smalltongue:

Here is the weaponized knowledge history check build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22032906&postcount=115) using the killing frost of gurlurak from DMG2 or PHB2 I forget which.

It's one of my favorite losing entries.

I actually referenced that in the OP, but I always have a hard time finding it with my Google searches! Super funny interactions there.

Wizard / Archivist with early entry Illumian Mystic Theurge, Improved Sigil Krau, and the Spell Mastery / Uncanny Forethought. Or Bard / Archivist. Regardless you want 2nd level divine spells.

Lore of the Gods for Insight +10 to Knowledge Checks. Divine Insight for other skills or if your CL is 6 or higher.
Guidance of the Avatar is Competence Bonus +20 to a skill. Duration is 1 minute.
Skillful Moment, a Bard / Wizard / Sorc 1st level spell allows you to take 20 on a skill the round after casting it.

You can eventually go into Urban Savant.

I think Versatile Spellcaster with a 1-level dip into Archivist might be better. With Versatile Spellcaster, you get one level-2 divine spell each day (or two, using a pearl of power) from any list (trading two Archivist 1 slots). You also get access to wands of those spells, whereas normally you'd need to pump UMD or hope that Eternal Wands are in-setting for your campaign.

With regard to the buff spells though, I think it's important to acknowledge the different modes the Knowledge checks can be used for, their breakpoints, and acknowledge a few facets of gameplay:

Archivist's Tactics which requires a DC35 and allows taking 10 (+25)
Knowledge Devotion which requires a 36 and allows taking 10 (+26)
Urban Savant's Methods which requires a DC35 and does not allow taking 10 (+34)
Urban Savant's Pierce Deception which requires a DC30 and does now allow taking 10 (+29)
Urban Savant's True Nature which requires a DC35 and does not allow taking 10 (+34)
General Knowledge checks which have technically infinite scaling, although the skill guide (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?514547) offers some maximum listed DCs:

Main Knowledges
Knowledge (Arcana): DC80 (although the next lowest was DC45)
Knowledge (Religion): DC40 (or DC50 or variable modified by sacrifice rules modifiers)
Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering): DC40
Knowledge (History): DC40
Knowledge (Planar): DC40
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): DC35
Knowledge (Geography): DC35
Knowledge (Nobility): DC35
Knowledge (Local): DC30 (or 15 + 1/1k of fenced item value)
Knowledge (Nature): DC30

Obscure Knowledges
Knowledge (Herbalism): DC30
Knowledge (Organizations): DC30
Knowledge (Psionics): DC30
Knowledge (Shadowlands): DC24 (or scaling based on subject taint score/HD)

Unlisted
Knowledge (Alienism)
Knowledge (Astrology)
Knowledge (Barbarian Lore)
Knowledge (Code of Martial Honor)
Knowledge (Devils)
Knowledge (Dragonkind)
Knowledge (Dreams)
Knowledge (Gemology)
Knowledge (Geology)
Knowledge (Ghost Lore)
Knowledge (Hearth Wisdom)
Knowledge (Illithid Lore)
Knowledge (Law)
Knowledge (Literature)
Knowledge (Local Bars and Alehouses)
Knowledge (Mathematics)
Knowledge (Outer Fane)
Knowledge (Plants or Herbs)
Knowledge (Politics)
Knowledge (Spirits)
Knowledge (Streetwise)
Knowledge (Temple History)
Knowledge (Undead)
Knowledge (Underdark History)
Knowledge (Undermountain History)
Knowledge (Union)
Knowledge (War)
Knowledge (Weaponry)

It is also important to recognize that, barring persistomancy, it consumes resources to keep spells active just in case we have combat.
If the spells are not always on, it consumes valuable action economy to prepare them.
Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight are both only good for one skill check, limiting their in-combat use further.

As a result of all this a wand of Guidance of the Avatar (+20 competency) and a wand of Lore of the Gods (+10) may be the most appropriate way to boost our knowledge checks for the purposes of those epic general knowledge-uses (although native access would be better), but we should ensure we can hit the following without their assistance:

+25 on or near level 2 (for Archivist)
+26 on or near level 3 (for Knowledge Devotion)
+34 on or near level 12 (for Methods)

As-is, I think we can reasonably expect to hit +25 by level 5 (8 ranks, +9 int/cha counting a +2 item, +2 tools, +6 untyped DFA). Of course, Archivist and Knowledge Devotion aren't inactive before then; they're just not at peak performance. The Skill Trick "Collector of Stories" is useful as a band-aid at this level, but is only usable once every 10 rounds, so could leave us high and dry if multiple types of enemies attack. 3 levels later we'll have 3 more skills ranks, 1 more attribute point to give us an extra +1, and a +5 competency from the Scrolls of Uncertain Providence, bringing us to a +34 4 levels ahead of schedule.

That covers our in-combat DCs; for our out-of-combat general knowledge checks, we're now hitting 34 at level 8. Guidance of the Avatar (cast via Archivist) gives us a net +15, bringing us up to 49, easily enough to pass any of the checks -- with the notable exception of that one DC80 Arcana check. To crack that, we'll need to spend a little bit more of our level 8 WBL.

With a 12 in wisdom, we get a bonus 1st-level spell. A pearl of power (1,000gp) will let us recall our first-level spell, letting us use Versatile Spellcaster to upcast those two slots into Lore of the Gods, granting a +10 insight bonus to our knowledge checks, bringing us up to 69. We can take 10, bringing us up to 79. That leaves +1 to go -- which can be accounted for by a second +2 int/cha-boosting item.

We purchased the Scrolls of Uncertain Providence (8,000gp), a +2 Cloak of Charisma (4,000gp), a +2 Headband of Intellect (4,000gp), Masterwork Tools (2,100 for all knowledges; make them flashcards bound into a book), a Pearl of Power (1,000gp), and 200gp to copy the two level-2 spells into our prayerbook, for a grant total of 19,300 -- well within our level 8 WBL.

As such, I think we can now consider the following build:

http://srd.dndtools.org/srd/resource/images/classes/101120.jpg

Magic-Blooded
Human

Stat
Array
After Racial/ Template Modifiers
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final

Str
8
8
-
-
-
-
+1
9

Dex
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8

Con
8
8
-
-
-
-
-
8

Int
18
18
+1
+1
-
-
-
20

Wis
14
12
-
-
-
-
-
12

Cha
16
18

+1
+1
-
20

HD
Class
BAB
Base Fort Save
Base Ref Save
Base Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1
Bardic Sage
+0
+0
+0
+2
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 4, Diplomacy 4, Listen 4, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4 44
Favored, Skill Focus: Diplomacy
Bardic music (1 use, 3 rounds), bardic knowledge +3, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1; membership in League of Eyes, bonus 0 divination known

2
Archivist
+0
+2
+0
+4
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 5, Diplomacy 4, Listen 5, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Scribe Scroll
Dark knowledge (tactics) 3/day

3
Dragonfire Adept
+0
+4
+0
+6
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 6, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 3, Listen 5, Perform 4, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Knowledge Devotion, Dragontouched
Breath weapon 1d6, least invocations (Draconic Knowledge)

4
Marshal
+0
+6
+0
+8
Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Knowledge (Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes) 7, Knowledge (Religion) 6, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 5, Perform 7, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Collector of Stories 9
Primary Contact
Minor aura (Motivate Intelligence)

5
Urban Savant
+0
+6
+2
+10
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 8, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 5, Perform 7, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 11

Urban savvy (strengths)

6
Urban Savant
+1
+6
+3
+11
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 9, Bluff 1, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 9, Perform 7, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories
Versatile Spellcaster
Urban empathy

7
Urban Savant
+1
+7
+3
+11
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 10, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 10, Perform 7, Profession (Astrologer) 1, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 11
-
Continuing education +1

8
Urban Savant
+2
+7
+4
+12
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 11, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 10, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 1, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 12
-
Urban savvy (weaknesses)

9
Mindbender
+2
+9
+4
+14
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 12, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 10, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 3, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 8
Mindsight
Telepathy

10
Urban Savant
+2
+9
+4
+14
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 13, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 12
-
Eyes of the city (low-light vision)

11
Sublime Chord
+2
+9
+4
+16
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 14, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 11, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 10
-
Bardic lore +4, bardic music (1 use, 3 rounds)

12
Urban Savant
+3
+10
+5
+17
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 15, Bluff 5, Concentration 1, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 15, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 12
Vatic Gaze
Continuing education +2

13
Urban Savant
+3
+10
+5
+17
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 16, Bluff 5, Concentration 6, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 16, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 12
-
Urban savvy (methods)

14
Urban Savant
+4
+10
+6
+18
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 17, Bluff 5, Concentration 11, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 12
-
Eyes of the city (pierce deception)

15
Paragnostic Apostle
+4
+10
+6
+20
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 18, Bluff 5, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories
Practiced Spellcaster
Knowledge is power, lore +6

16
Paragnostic Apostle
+5
+10
+6
+21
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 19, Knowledge (History) 2, Bluff 5, Concentration 19, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 10
-
Knowledge is power, lore +8

17
Paragnostic Apostle
+5
+11
+7
+21
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 20, Knowledge (History) 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 6, Collector of Stories 10
-
Knowledge is power, lore +10

18
Paragnostic Apostle
+6
+11
+7
+22
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 21, Knowledge (History) 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 9, Collector of Stories 10
Dreamtelling
Knowledge is power, lore +12

19
Urban Savant
+6
+12
+7
+22
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 22, Knowledge (History) 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 22, Spellcraft 10, Collector of Stories 10
-
Continuing education +3

20
Urban Savant
+7
+12
+8
+23
Knowledge (Arcana/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/Planes/Religion) 23, Knowledge (History) 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Listen 13, Perform 10, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 23, Spellcraft 15, Collector of Stories 10
-
Urban savvy (true nature)

Spells per Day/Spells Known (Bard/SC, Archivist)

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
2/4(1)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
2/4(1), 3/?
3/?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
2/4(1), 3/?
3/?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
2/4(1), 3/?
3/?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
3/5(1), 3/?
1/2(1), 3/?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
3/6(1), 3/?
2/3(1), 3/?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
3/6(1), 3/?
3/3(1), 3/?
1/2(1)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
2/3(1)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/3(1)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
3/3
1/1
-
-
-
-

12th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
3/4
2/2
-
-
-
-

13th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
4/4
2/2
1/1
-
-
-

14th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
4/4
3/3
2/2
-
-
-

15th
3/6(1), 3/?
4/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1
-
-

16th
3/6(1), 3/?
5/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
5/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
-
-

17th
3/6(1), 3/?
5/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
5/4
5/4
3/3
2/2
1/1
-

18th
3/6(1), 3/?
5/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
5/4
5/4
3/4
3/3
2/2
-

19th
3/6(1), 3/?
5/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
5/4
5/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1

20th
3/6(1), 3/?
5/3(1), 3/?
3/4(1)
1/2(1)
5/4
5/4
4/4
3/3
2/2
1/1

Key Details and Justification for Class Choices

We start out as a bardic sage for the bardic music feature and the skill points. Since we can make the knowledge check to find them, our membership in the League of Eyes is in our background to save on adventuring time. Taking 10 on our knowledge check, we have 18 on any topic. This is functional as any level 1 bard is. We can Inspire Courage to contribute meaningfully to combat, and that will help compensate for our mediocre strength. Our Knowledges offer some out-of-combat utility, and we can also function quite well as party face.

Our dip into Archivist gives us access to new spells, yes, but also Dark Knowledge. Now, we can take 10 to hit an automatic 19 for the purposes of our Dark Knowledge, so depending on the enemy, we can now grant +2att/+1dmg when combined with our Inspire Courage. We can also start gathering masterwork tools to bump our knowledges by another +2. Our flashcard booklet will grow page by page!

Our dip into Dragonfire Adept pumps out knowledges up to an automatic 26, or 28 when combined with our masterwork tools. We can now grant +3att/+1dmg to our party and spew our dragonbreath from the backline; we don't need to backline though, because our Knowledge Devotion will grant us an additional +3 to attack and damage. We may not have BAB, and we may have a -1 strength modifier, but we will still have a +5att/+3dmg at level 3 as if we were a 20 strength character with medium BAB progression. You can afford a level-1 Pearl of Power which, while it will be relevant later, is still very useful here.

With our dip in Marshal, we are now at the tail end of our "early game" where we smash face (because knowledge is power). We can now motivate intelligence to the rest of our party, but more notably ourselves, bringing our take-10 roll up to 33. Collector of Stories will bump us up to 38, too, so our melee bumps up to +8att/+5dmg (and our party-wide buffs are now up to +4att/+1dmg, and granting +4 to party int-based checks and skills). Fortunately, Marshal marks the end of our time as a martial character.

Finally, we enter Urban Savant and begin our life as a walking encyclopedia, able to provide BAB/AC/combat feats/special attacks/options. We can afford a +2 cha or int item, too. We can't take 10 on our Urban Savant knowledge checks, but our results should be between 31-50, so there isn't a risk of failure on the DC. This is also sufficient such that, if we take 10 (using Guidance of the Avatar/Lore of the Gods with Versatile Spellcaster and our Pearl of Power), we can hit almost any listed knowledge-check in the game. We also advance our spellcasting at long last.

With our massive knowledge check, Urban Empathy is a yes-level diplomacy check. Even making a rushed check against a hostile foe will automatically end the combat; against an unfriendly foe, we'll soon be able to guarantee a friendly result. Versatile Spellcaster comes online here, and you get access to every divine level 1 or 2 spell in the game, which is pretty nice. You can use your Pearl of Power on your Archivist spellslots to get up to 4 level 1 divine spells or, alternatively, 2 level 2 divine spells via Versatile Spellcaster.

We can now afford a notable item: the Scrolls of Uncertain Providence. These provide a +5 to all knowledge checks, bringing our modifier to an always-on +32. Collector of Stories serves us well, but it is now obsolete. We get a small buff to certain knowledges at this level, but the bigger payoff for knowledges comes next level.

The encyclopedia adds a new chapter, revealing HD, DR qualities, saves, and special weaknesses. We basically just get to see the creature's statblock. In addition, we can certainly afford a second +2 stat item to cha or int (whichever we didn't get last time), and we finally hit 20 int, the combination of which let us crack the ridiculous DC 80 Knowledge (Arcana) check listed in Dragons of Eberron. We can't actually make use of it without epic-level magic, but we can help someone else do it if they let us tag along. More importantly, it shows that our knowledges have reached peak performance. Anything further will be to ensure we can hit the scaling DCs to learn additional pieces of information about creatures or trivia as we advance into more difficult campaigns.

With a dip in Mindbender, we can now telepathically convey all the information we gain regardless of language in one great big information dump. Additionally, Mindsight reveals creatures' types and intelligence scores and, notably, allows us to become "aware" of any creatures within 100 feet of us even without line of sight in order to use our Urban Savvy on them. This will help compensate for our low spot check, too. While it's a commonly used class, it seemed very thematic for the mega-mind created here.

Closest thing we've had to a dead level in a while, but we still advance casting, hitting 3rds! We pick up the last pre-requisites we need to enter into Sublime Chord next level, too.

Now we leapfrog over bardic spellcasting progression into Sublime Chord progression, advancing our bardic knowledge for the first time ever. This puts us on track to get 9ths pre-epic in spite of our four missed caster levels..

Vatic Gaze gives us the ability to assess folks in more detail, also assessing their spellcasting ability and any spells active on their person. Between Vatic Gaze, Urban Savant, Mindsight, and our identification skills via general knowledge checks, we should be able to assess just about everything about a character the instant they enter within 100 feet and we become aware of them.

Now we can buff our allies' damage by a further 3d6. Knowledge is power, but power is also nice on its own.

The one thing that would make it difficult to use our knowledges is if we encountered a creature in full disguise. Pierce Deception gives us the ability to no-sell any disguise with a DC20 arcana check; a DC29 tells us exactly how they are disguised. This is the closest to Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis most PCs will get to.

At level 15, we take Practiced Spellcaster to regain all the caster levels we missed. We'll lose one more at level 20 because Wizards wants to make us sad, but we can make up for it somewhat with the Paragnostic Apostle features. From here on out, we advance our spellcasting, dipping Paragnostic Apostle for flavor and the Lore, casting buffs, and advancing our bardic knowledge to a semi-useful point.

We take Dreamtelling to leverage our knowledge in a new way; we know so much, we literally start to know things before they happen! We also hit 9ths and finish all 10 levels of Urban Savant, leaving the character eligible for epic-level gameplay. True Nature comes online as too-little-too-late, but is a wide-range buff if you have a large number of low-level allied mooks around you for some reason.

It seems to perform like a bardbarian from levels 1-5, then leans into our real identity as a know-it-all caster/buff-granter from levels 6-9, and then enters Sublime Chord and retains all that while entering into its own as a full-progression caster.

Jervis

2021-02-02, 01:53 AM

Doctor Despair

2021-02-02, 08:17 AM

If you don't use them already i would carry some Grimoires from dragon mag to give a +2 circumstance bonus and, if you can, find a way to shove a library from Stronghold Builder's Guide into a extrademinsional storage space to get a +6 for when you have time to burn.

I've been trying to avoid dragon material, but the library is a valid point; it could help us answer general knowledge questions at least one level early, I think, or replace the use of the second +2 stat-boosting item. I wonder if you could get a small Knowledge +2 library for less than the cost of a int/cha +2 item (4000gp)... I'll have to check out the guide for a listed price.

Edit: Looks like a single book lot (collection of books) on general knowledge provides a +1 bonus and costs 3,000gp; since the cost of the library has to be combined with the cost of the bag of holding, it's probably more cost-effective to get the +2 item (although a bag of holding is never a dead item, especially given our lower strength). With that said, the books could be helpful earlier on for meeting lower listed DCs.

Anthrowhale

2021-02-02, 09:22 AM

...

Native access to the big cleric spells seems good. It's a little unfortunate that the caster level is so low for Divine Insight though...

The Rules Compendium has some direct wording against using slots from one class to cast spells from another class's list.

Doctor Despair

2021-02-02, 09:55 AM

Native access to the big cleric spells seems good. It's a little unfortunate that the caster level is so low for Divine Insight though...

The Rules Compendium has some direct wording against using slots from one class to cast spells from another class's list.

Oh, is there explicit text on this? Somehow I've missed that. I honestly prefer the clarity; it's something that always struck me as an unintended outcome of Wizards not planning the game around multiclassing, but it's nice that there's some specific text on this. Do you happen to have a quote wrt this, just for my records?

Edit: In light of that, maybe it's worth swapping out the four levels of Paragnostic Apostle for Mystic Theurge. That would get us third-level divine slots, with access to fourths via Versatile Spellcaster. It's probably worth more than the lore and minor Knowledge is Power benefits, although it's less thematic.

Anthrowhale

2021-02-02, 10:18 AM

Oh, is there explicit text on this? Somehow I've missed that. I honestly prefer the clarity; it's something that always struck me as an unintended outcome of Wizards not planning the game around multiclassing, but it's nice that there's some specific text on this. Do you happen to have a quote wrt this, just for my records?
It's here:

A multiclass spellcaster can't cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.

ShurikVch

2021-02-02, 02:03 PM

Would knowing literally everything at level 4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?329040-Famous-Optimized-Character-Builds-Archive&p=16917909#post16917909) count?
It works only with extremely lenient interpretations:
1) Same effects don't stack
2) Infinite division by 2 would likely result in number below 1, not infinitely high

Personally, I think the best choice is between Human/Strongheart Halfling (bonus feat) or Sage Gnome (+2 int, +2 to all knowledge checks).
Other notables: Exiled Dwarf got bonus feat too (Dragon #320), and Golden Halfling got +2 Int and Wis (Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands)
From where is Sage Gnome?

Item of Legend (War of the Lance) - like Masterwork tool, but cost is X5 and bonus is +10

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species) - use Wood Element Silthilar as your guest, and get instant +17 to Knowledge (arcana and one other)

Unspeakable Oath spell (Call of Cthulhu d20): +1 Int at every subsequent level, and for every subsequent year of life (Warning: Cha 0 would result in your transformation into Chosen of Hastur)

Doctor Despair

2021-02-02, 03:13 PM

Other notables: Exiled Dwarf got bonus feat too (Dragon #320), and Golden Halfling got +2 Int and Wis (Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands)
From where is Sage Gnome?

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting; it, at least, is first-party product. It's under the generic gnome subchapter, towards the end, under life goals or something like that.

Item of Legend (War of the Lance) - like Masterwork tool, but cost is X5 and bonus is +10

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species) - use Wood Element Silthilar as your guest, and get instant +17 to Knowledge (arcana and one other)

Unspeakable Oath spell (Call of Cthulhu d20): +1 Int at every subsequent level, and for every subsequent year of life (Warning: Cha 0 would result in your transformation into Chosen of Hastur)

WBL is also worthy of consideration here; I'll have to check the Item of Legend. That sounds really promising; maybe it can move our combat-readiness up a bit. The use of Symbiotic Creature seems promising too; it reminds me of the Brainmate graft, although that's only a +10iirc.

Is Call of Cthulhu first party/3.5 material?

ShurikVch

2021-02-02, 03:25 PM

Is Call of Cthulhu first party/3.5 material?
It's first party/3.0 material - AFAIK, wasn't updated to 3.5

Doctor Despair

2021-02-02, 03:31 PM

It's first party/3.0 material - AFAIK, wasn't updated to 3.5

I'm looking at it, and it looks like it's an alternate system rather than a splatbook -- maybe I'm parsing it wrong though.

War of the Lance is a Dragonlance splat; iirc everything except for the campaign setting is third party, right? So reasonable to consider for use, but in the same way that Dragon Mag is of questionable legality at any given table?

ShurikVch

2021-02-02, 03:40 PM

I'm looking at it, and it looks like it's an alternate system rather than a splatbook -- maybe I'm parsing it wrong though.
Yes - Call of Cthulhu have its own spellcasting rules...
But check the Appendix - it have the very official RAW for using stuff from the book in a D&D game
For magic, there wouldn't be any Sanity cost or ability damage/drain
The spell in question marked as Sorcerer/Wizard 5, and costs 1000XP

War of the Lance is a Dragonlance splat; iirc everything except for the campaign setting is third party, right? So reasonable to consider for use, but in the same way that Dragon Mag is of questionable legality at any given table?
Yes, it's correct.

Troacctid

2021-02-02, 04:11 PM

I'm looking at it, and it looks like it's an alternate system rather than a splatbook -- maybe I'm parsing it wrong though.

War of the Lance is a Dragonlance splat; iirc everything except for the campaign setting is third party, right? So reasonable to consider for use, but in the same way that Dragon Mag is of questionable legality at any given table?
While they were both licensed, both the terms of their licenses and the general relationship with WotC was different. The official books have reprinted and referenced content from the magazines on multiple occasions, which gives them more caché. Paizo also brought on the entire magazine department from WotC, so the staff didn't really change when they took over—you can even look at the credits before and after, and the names are exactly the same. And, for the record, Dragon was fully 1st party for more than 25% of the edition's lifespan, so there's proportionally more 1st-party issues of Dragon and Dungeon for 3e than there are Dragonlance sourcebooks.

Anyway, the relevant question isn't whether it's 1st party, it's whether it's canon. Diablo II and d20 Modern are 1st party, but I imagine most people wouldn't consider them to be part of the official D&D rules. In my opinion, the magazines are a lower level of canon than the main books, but a higher level of canon than the 3rd party licensed setting books, which, unlike Dragon, are technically d20 products using D&D settings—not D&D 3.5e products.

Anthrowhale

2021-02-02, 04:15 PM

In my opinion, the magazines are a lower level of canon than the main books, but a higher level of canon than the 3rd party licensed setting books.
The term 'second party' is usually reserved for legal discussions, but it seems both relevant and descriptive here.

ShurikVch

2021-02-03, 01:48 PM

Note: Half-Fraal template (Menace Manual) gives +4 Int

Gruftzwerg

2021-02-04, 01:28 AM

Having a familiar could be nice to have:
1) can use your ranks in a skill, thus allows for a second roll
2) you can share buff spells with it
3) you can Aid Another each other for an untyped +2 bonus
Finally I find the idea hilarious that you have a lil chat with your familiar to find an answer to the question/topic.

Symbiotic Creature template (Savage Species) - use Wood Element Silthilar as your guest, and get instant +17 to Knowledge (arcana and one other)

You have to be careful with the use of the template, since it has some mechanical risks.

1) If you get the template as you described, you would lose control of your character. Because you become the host and the Wood Element Silthilar would be the guest and thus in control.

2) If you become the template as guest, you stop getting xp anymore. Because of the fusion the guest stops existing for XP calculations. Only the host gets XP.

Solution: You need full control over the host guest creature. Make a copy of the desired host guest creature as a Simulacrum or Ice Assassin. You have full control over it, even if it becomes your host guest. And as host, we still get XP.
edit: (further clarification of the solution)
Your mind doesn't have direct control of your body, but it still exists and has control over the Simulacrum/Ice Assassin. Thus you still have indirect control over your body/actions.

edit2: needed to switch host/guest at some points. These symbiont thought loops are slowly driving me crazy since my Orochimaru build.. -.-

Doctor Despair

2021-02-04, 02:03 AM