Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

[Destro2119]

One of the things I have been very interested about recently is Kingdom Building, especially as it relates to epic/high level characters and things like that. After thinking on this topic for a while, I extrapolated to how the ultimate incarnation of such an endeavor would be an intergalactic (and in the DnD world, likely interdimensional) empire.

In light of this, I would like to question how you would create such an empire, assuming you have control of a party of 5 characters, each at least 18th level (not above 20th, though they may level up beyond that if you give sufficient reason for why they could do so) and with all the WBL and also the unspoken resources (land grants, seats on the most powerful country's council, headmaster of famous magic school) of their level. You begin on your home planet, and have connections on all major countries and with most major individuals (dragons, beholders and so forth).

How would you elevate them from the ground to the stars? How would you create the most powerful empire? What would it look like after 100 years? 1000 years? Assume the galaxy you live in is the same one as the Pact Worlds system from Starfinder. How would you protect yourself from attack or even worse, from *shudders* adventurers? What if the Commonwealth of Man appears and begins to protest your policies?

Assume the rules system is 3.X, which means you use any rule, spell, or option from then entire 3.0 to PF line of products. Note that most of the greater details of establishing the empire cannot be easily governed through rules alone, so while you might use PF downtime rules for one thing, you might have to explain how you did something else in words. Also, if (when you develop) futuristic items, you may have to use the equipment from Starfinder or some other game as a base template, but don't be afraid to make up your own as long as you give some reasonable explanation for why you could have it (ie no making a black hole generator from rubbing two sticks).

With all that said, how would you accomplish this ultimate goal?

[Thealtruistorc]

Star Empires from Legendary Games details development of empires on a multiplanetary scale, if you think that sort of info would help.

[Destro2119]

What would *your* empire look like, though?

[Anthrowhale]

"Intergalactic" is irrelevant, because permanency teleportation circle is not limited by distance.

"Interdimensional" is also not very relevant since portals are a thing. I could see natural interdimensional trade taking place due to the strange materials/properties available in other dimensions.

So, the answer is much like a magic-based planetary empire (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy).

[Melcar]

One of the things I have been very interested about recently is Kingdom Building, especially as it relates to epic/high level characters and things like that. After thinking on this topic for a while, I extrapolated to how the ultimate incarnation of such an endeavor would be an intergalactic (and in the DnD world, likely interdimensional) empire.

In light of this, I would like to question how you would create such an empire, assuming you have control of a party of 5 characters, each at least 18th level (not above 20th, though they may level up beyond that if you give sufficient reason for why they could do so) and with all the WBL and also the unspoken resources (land grants, seats on the most powerful country's council, headmaster of famous magic school) of their level. You begin on your home planet, and have connections on all major countries and with most major individuals (dragons, beholders and so forth).

How would you elevate them from the ground to the stars? How would you create the most powerful empire? What would it look like after 100 years? 1000 years? Assume the galaxy you live in is the same one as the Pact Worlds system from Starfinder. How would you protect yourself from attack or even worse, from *shudders* adventurers? What if the Commonwealth of Man appears and begins to protest your policies?

Assume the rules system is 3.X, which means you use any rule, spell, or option from then entire 3.0 to PF line of products. Note that most of the greater details of establishing the empire cannot be easily governed through rules alone, so while you might use PF downtime rules for one thing, you might have to explain how you did something else in words. Also, if (when you develop) futuristic items, you may have to use the equipment from Starfinder or some other game as a base template, but don't be afraid to make up your own as long as you give some reasonable explanation for why you could have it (ie no making a black hole generator from rubbing two sticks).

With all that said, how would you accomplish this ultimate goal?

How many dimensions are there in The multiverse? I know there are many crystal spheres containing at least a solar system, possibly galaxies, and I know there are many many planes, but dimensions? I actually thought it was all in the same dimension?

[Destro2119]

How many dimensions are there in The multiverse? I know there are many crystal spheres containing at least a solar system, possibly galaxies, and I know there are many many planes, but dimensions? I actually thought it was all in the same dimension?

As many as you need, but I am talking about the planes.

[AvatarVecna]

(not above 20th, though they may level up beyond that if you give sufficient reason for why they could do so)

I just want to address this: leveling up beyond 20th level is either impossible (because whoever's running the game has declared that epic isn't a thing), or trivial (if they have not). Since you indicate that if a method is discovered, it would be allowed, that indicates we're operating in the latter situation, where leveling up is trivial. Leveling up from 20th to 21 level takes either 20,000 XP (3.5 rules) or ~1,500,000 XP (PF estimate, since PF doesn't have official epic rules AFAIK). If we're assuming one big monster that will level us up, that's either a 3.5 monster of CR 24 (24,000 XP) or a PF monster of CR 25 (1,638,400 XP). PF monsters tend to earn their CR more frequently than 3.5 monsters, so we'll go with that. Let's find a CR 25 PF monster, preferably first party...

...oh. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-destruction/tarrasque)

...well that's appropriate, isn't it? That if you wanna go from 20th to 21st in one shot, your best bet is to solo the tarrasque? That seems fitting, to me.

[AvatarVecna]

Sling bullets are ~3 inches long and ~1.5 inches diameter at their widest, and weight 0.5 lbs. Colossal sling bullets are ~48 inches long and ~25 inches diameter at their widest, and weigh 2048 lbs. The latter is a Medium-sized object. Colossal sling bullets cost 16 silver pieces for a pack of 10. That's kinda stupid and nonsensical, but I don't make the rules, I just exploit them.

Casting "Shrink Item" on a Colossal Sling Bullet will make it the same size and weight as a Medium Sling Bullet for days, or until the command word is spoken that would unshrink it.

Bag Of Holding Type I costs 2500 gp, and has a max capacity of 250 lbs or 30 cubic feet (51840 cubic inches), whichever you meet first. 500 medium sling bullets meets the weight limit, and 7680 meet the volume limit, so let's go with 500. Fill up a Bag Of Holding Type I with Colossal Sling Bullets that have had Shrink Item cast on them.

Figure out where the tarrasque is. Teleport directly above it ~250 ft. In the surprise round, cast Time Stop. Your first free round is spent turning the bag inside out, dumping all contents into your immediate surroundings, then speaking the command word to unshrink all the things. Your second free round is spent teleporting away. When the Time Stop ends (0-3 rounds of apparent time later), the items un-shrink and fall 300 ft, impacting the tarrasque per the falling object rules. If we want to be fair, we're dropping these items on the tarrasque, so 5% of them miss just from natural 1 ranged touch attacks. The tarrasque still shouldn't be aware anything is wrong, since this is all happening inside the Time Stop, which is taking part during the Surprise round, so no Reflex saves to avoid the remainder. 475 Medium-sized objects impact the tarrasque at falling speeds, dealing ~2900 damage in total after damage reduction.

Bag Of Holding Type I: 2500 gp
500 Colossal Sling Bullets: 80 gp
500 castings of Shrink Object: 10 days' worth of slots without metamagic

Soloing the tarrasque in the surprise round: priceless

[JNAProductions]

Sling bullets are ~3 inches long and ~1.5 inches diameter at their widest, and weight 0.5 lbs. Colossal sling bullets are ~48 inches long and ~25 inches diameter at their widest, and weigh 2048 lbs. The latter is a Medium-sized object. Colossal sling bullets cost 16 silver pieces for a pack of 10. That's kinda stupid and nonsensical, but I don't make the rules, I just exploit them.

Casting "Shrink Item" on a Colossal Sling Bullet will make it the same size and weight as a Medium Sling Bullet for days, or until the command word is spoken that would unshrink it.

Bag Of Holding Type I costs 2500 gp, and has a max capacity of 250 lbs or 30 cubic feet (51840 cubic inches), whichever you meet first. 500 medium sling bullets meets the weight limit, and 7680 meet the volume limit, so let's go with 500. Fill up a Bag Of Holding Type I with Colossal Sling Bullets that have had Shrink Item cast on them.

Figure out where the tarrasque is. Teleport directly above it ~250 ft. In the surprise round, cast Time Stop. Your first free round is spent turning the bag inside out, dumping all contents into your immediate surroundings, then speaking the command word to unshrink all the things. Your second free round is spent teleporting away. When the Time Stop ends (0-3 rounds of apparent time later), the items un-shrink and fall 300 ft, impacting the tarrasque per the falling object rules. If we want to be fair, we're dropping these items on the tarrasque, so 5% of them miss just from natural 1 ranged touch attacks. The tarrasque still shouldn't be aware anything is wrong, since this is all happening inside the Time Stop, which is taking part during the Surprise round, so no Reflex saves to avoid the remainder. 475 Medium-sized objects impact the tarrasque at falling speeds, dealing ~2900 damage in total after damage reduction.

Bag Of Holding Type I: 2500 gp
500 Colossal Sling Bullets: 80 gp
500 castings of Shrink Object: 10 days' worth of slots without metamagic

Soloing the tarrasque in the surprise round: priceless

Why wouldn't Big T get reflex saves? Is that a specific note in the falling object rules?

[AvatarVecna]

Why wouldn't Big T get reflex saves? Is that a specific note in the falling object rules?

You get reflex saves for half damage to dodge falling objects if you're aware of them. Whether that applies if they were deliberately dropped or not, I'm not sure. I'm just making sure to address that I'm aware of the possibility of saves for half damage, and that I'm ignoring that possibility because this is all taking place 200 ft above Big T's head during the surprise round.

[JNAProductions]

You get reflex saves for half damage to dodge falling objects if you're aware of them. Whether that applies if they were deliberately dropped or not, I'm not sure. I'm just making sure to address that I'm aware of the possibility of saves for half damage, and that I'm ignoring that possibility because this is all taking place 200 ft above Big T's head during the surprise round.

Ah, okay! Good to know.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Does it matter how many characters I end up with as long as I START with 5?

[icefractal]

Assume the rules system is 3.X, which means you use any rule, spell, or option from then entire 3.0 to PF line of products.If this is really everything, then a lot of things become completely unlimited (resources, personnel, space, time) and the scale of the empire ceases to matter - you could run a million worlds with the same difficulty as a single city. Also, enemies become either a non-issue (if they aren't going NI) or impossible to adjudicate (if they are).

So I'd advise an assumption of no infinite loops - although even then with the resources of multiple planets you can still do pretty much anything, the scale just starts mattering somewhat. Also, personally speaking, I'm ignoring Epic stuff, it subtracts more than it adds.

Maybe the first question to ask then is - what is the potential of the general population and how easily can it be achieved?
* Can every person become any class (stats permitting) or are PC classes 'rare'?
* Can every person reach 20th level given sufficient opportunity?
* Can a person reach their maximum level through training alone, or are genuine life and death stakes required?
* If the latter, does it still count if True Resurrection is right at hand?

It's entirely possible to build a dimensional empire even if the citizens of it are completely useless, but structuring society so that more people could reach their maximum potential would be considered desirable by many if it's possible.

[Gusmo]

I would build an overworld exactly like a town map anywhere else, except every door would take you to a demiplane. A city would essentially be a collection of portals. To expand the city, either the demiplanes would be expanded, or the city would annex land to open up more plots for additional portals. Demiplane traits would be set at creation such that interplanar travel in or out is only possible by the portal.

[Efrate]

Depends on your citizens. An empire is not just what the people at the top can do (the pcs), which is anuthing and everything.

Random musings on npcs (long)

Bob the farmer just wants some land, low taxes, feed his family, put a bit aside for lean months, and protection from the myriad things thay can hurt him and his. He does not mind magic but probably does not trust it, definately does not rely on it. He will not farm in a demiplane thats only accessible by magic means. Thats MOST of a settings population.

Joe the merchant has a knack for befriending people. He travels constantly and has friends everywhere. He also makes a modest profit which he uses prudently, but he is not unknown to excess. He thinks magic is neat and if it helps him and eases his burdens, he is all for it. He probably has some magical protection containers for sensative goods, maybe just simple hold portal with a key to bypass. He would love cheap or free long distance travel.

Galf the blacksmith makes fine weapons and armor. For 100 years he has ran his forge and he will run it 100 mire Moradin willing. He does a brisk trade in adventuring gear, and has partnerships with a few magic users to consign, enchant, and improve magical gear. He handles the physical and buisness tasks, but he is not leaving his forge anytime soon. He is very comfortable with magic and would access to a wider range of markets.

George the guard is a solid sort. He trained with the army a bit and considered adventuring, but his duty is to protect those he cares about. He appreciates a fine magic spear but that is most of his contact with magic. He know his job is to deal with some local thugs, an occasional goblin that sneaks in and a few wild animals. He is smart enough to know when he is outclassed, and he does not relish the idea of a lone fiend or an angel walking the streets, let alone many.

Cheri is the towns healer. She is the go to for her peoples magical needs, can cure devils chills or most poxes, throw a bit of offensive magic in dire straights, but mostly focuses on making useful potions for the well to do and easing the burdens as she can for the rest. She would love to have wider access to reagents but knows with more magic comes many more issues which many are not equipped to deal with. She is cautiously optimiatic.

Lady Sera of the House Domire is the preeminent socialite of her city. She know who is who, what the latest and greatest fashions are, and always has the jucieat gossip and wonderful stories. She lives a life of excess and has no time for mundane foolishness. She disdains drudgery and always has someone do the menial work for her. She adores travelling to exotic locales and has a modest collection of curios, some of which are magical. The opportunity to one up her peers with an even better tale or trinket never escapes her.

Moat commeners cannot or will not easily live in such a place willingly. Said commeners are also the source of most food production, so they become your big hurdles. If you want to make it successful without going tippyverse, you need to convince them first. You can invalidate them with spell traps or what have you, but that leads to revolt, so that needs to be dealt with.

Your experts would likely love opportunities to expand their spheres of influence, so they would welcome the change provided it does not interfere with production.

Your warriors are also invalidated, because they cannot hope to deal with threats beyond lowest CRs. They would also need something to keep them placated. They are armed and in your cities already so they are a potential issue. Or you need to upgrade them drastically to have a reasonable chance of still.being good. Leadership and a bunch of warblades?

Adepts need to maintain their niche though as you grow larger pc classes would replace them. However, this are magic users who are in your walls. Maybe a council of elders over various wards? These are magic users en masse in your walls can do more successful sabotage and issurection than anyone else.

Your aristocrats see new areas to exploit, and they would jump on it quickly provided they are assured their power base and lifestyle would not be compromised.

So you solve food and protection first, then you start mercantile. Your nobles and merchants/craftsmen will profit considerably. But you need to be sure tou are super careful in integration with other stronger/better/different races. SLA races like mind flayers or the like upset your adepts so you need to be very careful there.

After solving food, protection, trade, snd the social issues, next you need education, possibly with mandated military time. Transition everyone to PC classes.

Bob the farmers son, Bob Jr. the druid is substantially better for everyone. He will help plants grow better, ensure there are fewer if any bad harvests, increase production, and is less dependent on protection from the guards. Same with everyone else. You need to do it for everyone at no cost, so you do not have a power disparity that rips your nation apart.

When your merchants are bards or beguilers, your craftsmen wizards and clerics, your guards crusaders, warblades and swordsages, your nobles marshalls, you adepts clerics, druids and wizards, you can get serious with expansion.

You now have a populace than can fare and compete both militaristically and mercantily with stronger races. You outclass normal humanoids and will subsume or replace all their empires, and can stand with most exceptional creatures. From there you rinse and repeat, 2 generations per world should do it.

[Destro2119]

If this is really everything, then a lot of things become completely unlimited (resources, personnel, space, time) and the scale of the empire ceases to matter - you could run a million worlds with the same difficulty as a single city. Also, enemies become either a non-issue (if they aren't going NI) or impossible to adjudicate (if they are).

So I'd advise an assumption of no infinite loops - although even then with the resources of multiple planets you can still do pretty much anything, the scale just starts mattering somewhat. Also, personally speaking, I'm ignoring Epic stuff, it subtracts more than it adds.

Maybe the first question to ask then is - what is the potential of the general population and how easily can it be achieved?
* Can every person become any class (stats permitting) or are PC classes 'rare'?
* Can every person reach 20th level given sufficient opportunity?
* Can a person reach their maximum level through training alone, or are genuine life and death stakes required?
* If the latter, does it still count if True Resurrection is right at hand?

It's entirely possible to build a dimensional empire even if the citizens of it are completely useless, but structuring society so that more people could reach their maximum potential would be considered desirable by many if it's possible.

When I allow those options, I bar all the greatest cheese things like djinn infinite wishes/painter wizard/sarrukhs.

Answer to all the questions is yes if you have sufficient training, but becoming a sorcerer for example will probably require something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/ismpfh/retraining_and_the_art_of_genetic_engineering/

[Bonzai]

Step 1: become an insanely powerful Wizard.

Step 2: figure out a way to become immortal as conquering reality is going to take a lot of time.

Step 3: create a similicra to rule you native world/plane in your stead. Thanks to step 1, there is nothing that can challenge your Similacra in your absence.

Step 4: Create your unstoppable invasion army. Go nuts here.

Step 5: invade Sigil and conquer the outlands.

Step 6: take your time, go through each and every portal, one at a time, and conquer everything you find. With each conquest you add its resources to your forces, and leaving a Similacra to rule in your stead.

[Quertus]

In light of this, I would like to question how you would create such an empire, assuming you have control of a party of 5 characters, each at least 18th level (not above 20th, though they may level up beyond that if you give sufficient reason for why they could do so) and with all the WBL and also the unspoken resources (land grants, seats on the most powerful country's council, headmaster of famous magic school) of their level. You begin on your home planet, and have connections on all major countries and with most major individuals (dragons, beholders and so forth).

How would you elevate them from the ground to the stars? How would you create the most powerful empire? What would it look like after 100 years? 1000 years? Assume the galaxy you live in is the same one as the Pact Worlds system from Starfinder. How would you protect yourself from attack or even worse, from *shudders* adventurers? What if the Commonwealth of Man appears and begins to protest your policies?

So many little details to attend to here.

How would I go other places? Knowledge checks to know of Sigil / Union / the infinite staircase / astral portals / shadow travel / Spelljamming / Teleport Through Time / Plane Shift / Fast Time Planes / whatever else.

How would I go over level 20? By traveling to a world where that was commonplace. Union, as a trivial example.

But… what's my motivation? Why would characters with such power care about founding a multi-world empire? That will necessarily lead more reasonably to the "how" of it.

Also, the specifics of the world matter greatly. So I'm inventing a world of my own, just for this exercise.

But fine. Let's start with one character: an immortal (Elan, perhaps) Arcane Spellcaster / Tainted Sorcerer (maybe Good Taint, or Law Taint variant), complete with Spell Points and Mother Cyst. They have realized that the world runs horrifically inefficiently, that things like "hunger" or "______" have no reason to exist, and are symptoms of a larger problem - one that they have the power and the divine mandate to fix.

So, they prepare whatever resources they didn't already have, collect their party (including an all-important 5-year-old advisor), and yeti to take over the world.

Day 1, they use their (previously conquered) fast time plane to rest between mass castings, and Necrotic Tumor everyone of importance in one empire. They have them issue edicts mandating - in effect - a reallocation of funds towards the caster's new civics programs. They repeat this for every important individual in every empire, kingdom, theocracy, etc throughout the world. With only 14,400 rounds per day? This spreads fastest than news, but still takes longer than one day, just to get all the humanoids.

With the massive funds of *every single bit of civilization* at their disposal? They have temples and magic item shops begin churning out the necessary items that their own world can produce, while taking the bulk of the funds to Union, to purchase larger orders and/or larger items.

Once they get enough XP from conquering kingdoms to get Epic Spells, they (as the first Epic Spellcaster that the gods have allowed to exist in their world for untold eons) start spinning worldwide epic spells (powered by spells cast by Archmagi in their thrall) to ensure the betterment of all. Also, to bring the non-humanoid nations firmly under their control, as well.

Soon, like the great gears of Mechanus, everyone in the world moves towards a singular purpose - in this case, the purpose of the Greater Good.

Missionaries are sent to other worlds. Those that accept »flying spaghetti monster« as their Lord and Savior receive a visit from an Emissary - a Simulacrum of a deity, complete with Acorn of Far Travel to bring the host of Epic goodness with them. The epic world-dwoemers (which make a mythal look like a hovel in comparison) are *selective* this time - only affecting areas where they're wanted. Soon, happiness and efficiency spread throughout the multiverse.

As the XP (and riches) from the conquest of worlds flows in, the caster invents their *own* portal network, their *own* variant on Sigil / the infinite staircase, their *own* proprietary way to travel between worlds.

So… what have I missed? How does "pact worlds" (whatever that is) or "Commonwealth of Man" (whatever that is) affect this plan?

EDIT: for defenses, the gods will not allow other Epic beings into the world. And non-Epic beings a) cannot enter through normal space (a property of the world); b) even if they do enter through the infinite staircase etc, they will find that every pebble can Polymorph into custom monsters capable of eating ancient dragons as snacks (and using Chain True Resurrection as a spell-like ability). Not that the Commoner 1 citizens are much less scary, with their mythol-on-steroids support (and planetary hive mind, and divine protection, and…)

[Destro2119]

So many little details to attend to here.

How would I go other places? Knowledge checks to know of Sigil / Union / the infinite staircase / astral portals / shadow travel / Spelljamming / Teleport Through Time / Plane Shift / Fast Time Planes / whatever else.

How would I go over level 20? By traveling to a world where that was commonplace. Union, as a trivial example.

But… what's my motivation? Why would characters with such power care about founding a multi-world empire? That will necessarily lead more reasonably to the "how" of it.

Also, the specifics of the world matter greatly. So I'm inventing a world of my own, just for this exercise.

But fine. Let's start with one character: an immortal (Elan, perhaps) Arcane Spellcaster / Tainted Sorcerer (maybe Good Taint, or Law Taint variant), complete with Spell Points and Mother Cyst. They have realized that the world runs horrifically inefficiently, that things like "hunger" or "______" have no reason to exist, and are symptoms of a larger problem - one that they have the power and the divine mandate to fix.

So, they prepare whatever resources they didn't already have, collect their party (including an all-important 5-year-old advisor), and yeti to take over the world.

Day 1, they use their (previously conquered) fast time plane to rest between mass castings, and Necrotic Tumor everyone of importance in one empire. They have them issue edicts mandating - in effect - a reallocation of funds towards the caster's new civics programs. They repeat this for every important individual in every empire, kingdom, theocracy, etc throughout the world. With only 14,400 rounds per day? This spreads fastest than news, but still takes longer than one day, just to get all the humanoids.

With the massive funds of *every single bit of civilization* at their disposal? They have temples and magic item shops begin churning out the necessary items that their own world can produce, while taking the bulk of the funds to Union, to purchase larger orders and/or larger items.

Once they get enough XP from conquering kingdoms to get Epic Spells, they (as the first Epic Spellcaster that the gods have allowed to exist in their world for untold eons) start spinning worldwide epic spells (powered by spells cast by Archmagi in their thrall) to ensure the betterment of all. Also, to bring the non-humanoid nations firmly under their control, as well.

Soon, like the great gears of Mechanus, everyone in the world moves towards a singular purpose - in this case, the purpose of the Greater Good.

Missionaries are sent to other worlds. Those that accept »flying spaghetti monster« as their Lord and Savior receive a visit from an Emissary - a Simulacrum of a deity, complete with Acorn of Far Travel to bring the host of Epic goodness with them. The epic world-dwoemers (which make a mythal look like a hovel in comparison) are *selective* this time - only affecting areas where they're wanted. Soon, happiness and efficiency spread throughout the multiverse.

As the XP (and riches) from the conquest of worlds flows in, the caster invents their *own* portal network, their *own* variant on Sigil / the infinite staircase, their *own* proprietary way to travel between worlds.

So… what have I missed? How does "pact worlds" (whatever that is) or "Commonwealth of Man" (whatever that is) affect this plan?

EDIT: for defenses, the gods will not allow other Epic beings into the world. And non-Epic beings a) cannot enter through normal space (a property of the world); b) even if they do enter through the infinite staircase etc, they will find that every pebble can Polymorph into custom monsters capable of eating ancient dragons as snacks (and using Chain True Resurrection as a spell-like ability). Not that the Commoner 1 citizens are much less scary, with their mythol-on-steroids support (and planetary hive mind, and divine protection, and…)

What exactly do you mean by "world dweomer epic spells?" Give an example.

[Efrate]

Using epic spellcasting, create a permanent magical effect that is widened enough to cover an entire planet that gives all in it a variety of abilities. You discount DC by having thralls provide 9th or epic slots, or any mumber of other ways (chain gating solars also provides infinite 9ths). Customize as you see fit.

You literally can recreate reality and give everyone more or less superpowers (ie tons of useful spells up to 9ths iircs at will just for being born there).

At leat that is what i assume they meant. Epic spellcasting is borked.

[Quertus]

What exactly do you mean by "world dweomer epic spells?" Give an example.

I hinted, but… like a mythol, only better, and covering the whole world.

area of effect: whole world
Duration: permanent
Effect: immune to spells level 1-9.
Effect: hive mind (planetary scale).
Effect: hive mind can PaO at will.
Effect: joy and happiness.
Effect: part of the world, part of the community.

Now let's add…

Effect: planetary teleportation circle.
Effect: Well of Souls (really, the gods can handle this, but… the dead don't pass on unless they're willing; more importantly, they're still aware, and part of everyone's awareness.) (Also, used to give "sentience" to life created with PaO effect.)

Newer versions are selective in where they function.

Imagine Transhumanity on space crank: every bit of matter can be whatever we want, wherever we want, controlled by whomever we want. AND WE'RE ALL JUST SO DANGED HAPPY TO WORK TOGETHER PERFECTLY EFFICIENTLY ON EVERY PROJECT (including adding disruptive invaders to our biomass) TO BOOT!

Because epic spells powered by the entire world (let alone Simulacra armies) are just gonzo.

EDIT: non-disruptive visitors are, of course, shown the hospitality and truth of »flying spaghetti monster«, and allowed to remain, or to take that truth back to their home planet with them.

EDIT 2: imagine a world where "Legendary Paragon" was the norm. Imagine a world where, even if you removed them from the hive mind (easily accomplished - simply take them off world) even a single ant was smarter than you. And they're all perfectly happy being perfectly cooperative with one another, their minds enriched with the feed from… as many other minds as they can process (importantly, even the dead receive such feed, making death little different than life (especially when viewed from the perspective of modern couch potatoes hooked up to phones or TVs)). That's the world that is at least being aimed at. The Great Collective of Community and Kai Zen.

[Destro2119]

I hinted, but… like a mythol, only better, and covering the whole world.

area of effect: whole world
Duration: permanent
Effect: immune to spells level 1-9.
Effect: hive mind (planetary scale).
Effect: hive mind can PaO at will.
Effect: joy and happiness.
Effect: part of the world, part of the community.

Now let's add…

Effect: planetary teleportation circle.
Effect: Well of Souls (really, the gods can handle this, but… the dead don't pass on unless they're willing; more importantly, they're still aware, and part of everyone's awareness.) (Also, used to give "sentience" to life created with PaO effect.)

Newer versions are selective in where they function.

Imagine Transhumanity on space crank: every bit of matter can be whatever we want, wherever we want, controlled by whomever we want. AND WE'RE ALL JUST SO DANGED HAPPY TO WORK TOGETHER PERFECTLY EFFICIENTLY ON EVERY PROJECT (including adding disruptive invaders to our biomass) TO BOOT!

Because epic spells powered by the entire world (let alone Simulacra armies) are just gonzo.

EDIT: non-disruptive visitors are, of course, shown the hospitality and truth of »flying spaghetti monster«, and allowed to remain, or to take that truth back to their home planet with them.

EDIT 2: imagine a world where "Legendary Paragon" was the norm. Imagine a world where, even if you removed them from the hive mind (easily accomplished - simply take them off world) even a single ant was smarter than you. And they're all perfectly happy being perfectly cooperative with one another, their minds enriched with the feed from… as many other minds as they can process (importantly, even the dead receive such feed, making death little different than life (especially when viewed from the perspective of modern couch potatoes hooked up to phones or TVs)). That's the world that is at least being aimed at. The Great Collective of Community and Kai Zen.

Here's something more difficult: how would you accomplish the same using these epic spells rules?: https://www.jessesdnd.com/sites/default/files/EpicPathfinder1.6.pdf

Could it defeat the Galactic Empire or the Earth Alliance?

Note: if you want to make your task easier with *this* specific system by some method you envision (ie any homebrew thing you want to add to that system), you may try to justify the changes you want to make.

[Empyreal Dragon]

I am still waiting to find out the ruling on if we're limited to 5 flat out or if we can expand our party somehow because I HAVE thought about how to do this.

[Destro2119]

I am still waiting to find out the ruling on if we're limited to 5 flat out or if we can expand our party somehow because I HAVE thought about how to do this.

YES, you can expand it. YES, I am allowing Leadership on cohorts of cohorts of cohorts etc b/c that is often how it works IRL too.

[Quertus]

Here's something more difficult: how would you accomplish the same using these epic spells rules?: https://www.jessesdnd.com/sites/default/files/EpicPathfinder1.6.pdf

Could it defeat the Galactic Empire or the Earth Alliance?

Note: if you want to make your task easier with *this* specific system by some method you envision (ie any homebrew thing you want to add to that system), you may try to justify the changes you want to make.

Rules? Unlike with 3e Epic Spells, there really weren't any *rules* there. So the answer is, trivially, yes, done: the spells do exactly what I said that they did. I researched them in a strict RAW 3e world, and brought them back with me to fulfill the gods' designs.

(Unless you want to point out some rules that read as more than "mother may I" for the creation of new Pathfinder "Epic" Spells that I missed)

You'll have to point me to stats and tactics for "the Galactic Empire or the Earth Alliance" for me to answer questions regarding them, however.

[Mechalich]

Could it defeat the Galactic Empire or the Earth Alliance?


Do you mean the Galactic Empire of Star Wars? Because that's trivial. Step One: use divinations to identify the ruler of the Empire (presumably Palpatine). Step Two: Scry and Die Palpatine (he's not defenseless exactly, but a party of 18th level characters can take care of him and any number of royal guards or other minions without any real risk). Step Three: Create a Simulacrum of Palpatine. Step Four: repeat steps 1-3 as necessary for key minions such as Darth Vader, Grand Moff Tarkin, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc. until you control the entire inner circle of the Empire.

You may now utilize the Galactic Empire's resources as you see fit. Extremely departures from previously established ideological goals or economic policies will likely result in schisms, but these can be rectified using the same method you used to take control of the Empire in the first place.

The broader point behind this thought experiment is that any faction with access to the Scry & Die & Replace approach can, with fairly minimal effort, take control of any other faction that does not also have the same access or some appropriate method to block such tactics. Autocratic regimes are actually far easier to topple than democratic ones with more distributed power bases - taking control of the average parliamentary government in this way might require you to replace the majority of the legislature, which might be logistically complicated to handle in a time frame immune to discovery (though still quite doable for a party of optimized 20th level 3.5e casters).

[Quertus]

Do you mean the Galactic Empire of Star Wars? Because that's trivial. Step One: use divinations to identify the ruler of the Empire (presumably Palpatine). Step Two: Scry and Die Palpatine (he's not defenseless exactly, but a party of 18th level characters can take care of him and any number of royal guards or other minions without any real risk). Step Three: Create a Simulacrum of Palpatine. Step Four: repeat steps 1-3 as necessary for key minions such as Darth Vader, Grand Moff Tarkin, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc. until you control the entire inner circle of the Empire.

You may now utilize the Galactic Empire's resources as you see fit. Extremely departures from previously established ideological goals or economic policies will likely result in schisms, but these can be rectified using the same method you used to take control of the Empire in the first place.

The broader point behind this thought experiment is that any faction with access to the Scry & Die & Replace approach can, with fairly minimal effort, take control of any other faction that does not also have the same access or some appropriate method to block such tactics. Autocratic regimes are actually far easier to topple than democratic ones with more distributed power bases - taking control of the average parliamentary government in this way might require you to replace the majority of the legislature, which might be logistically complicated to handle in a time frame immune to discovery (though still quite doable for a party of optimized 20th level 3.5e casters).

Eh, not so trivial: their precognitive abilities do not rely on asking the right questions. Mind Blank may be the silver omni tool here, or the Force may laugh at any assumed transparency ("you alive, fool? Yes? Then you's a part of me.")

Also, mine is intended to explicitly be a *peaceful* takeover of the other worlds - yes, a hostile takeover of my own, but with no casualties even then.

If necessary, perhaps some Necrotic Tumor & Mindrape action would be more in character for the benevolent… Harmony of Transcendence Collective.

Perhaps marketing should be called in on any naming decisions.

[Destro2119]

Eh, not so trivial: their precognitive abilities do not rely on asking the right questions. Mind Blank may be the silver omni tool here, or the Force may laugh at any assumed transparency ("you alive, fool? Yes? Then you's a part of me.")

Also, mine is intended to explicitly be a *peaceful* takeover of the other worlds - yes, a hostile takeover of my own, but with no casualties even then.

If necessary, perhaps some Necrotic Tumor & Mindrape action would be more in character for the benevolent… Harmony of Transcendence Collective.

Perhaps marketing should be called in on any naming decisions.

Is there some less ominous alternative to literal "necrotic tumors" in your whole setup? Also, what is "flying spaghetti monster" and "tainted sorcerer"?

BTW, who are the other four guys of your "core team"?

EDIT: Also, I would like you to clarify on a few things-- ho exactly do you travel through space to other planets? What do your "missionaries" look like? What does the "average citizen" look like/what can he do? How exactly do you "add disruptive invaders to your biomass?"

[Destro2119]

Rules? Unlike with 3e Epic Spells, there really weren't any *rules* there. So the answer is, trivially, yes, done: the spells do exactly what I said that they did. I researched them in a strict RAW 3e world, and brought them back with me to fulfill the gods' designs.

(Unless you want to point out some rules that read as more than "mother may I" for the creation of new Pathfinder "Epic" Spells that I missed)

You'll have to point me to stats and tactics for "the Galactic Empire or the Earth Alliance" for me to answer questions regarding them, however.

I think the point of the rules is that you have to use spell slots for them, so theoretically there is less chance of ritual nonsense to bring down a DC. What now?

[unseenmage]

So in PF the reaches of space are populated in no small part by the creatures of the Dominion of the Black and/or the Cthulhu mythos. Including literal Cthulhu.

Could one scry-and-die these guys as a means of getting out there? *vaguely waves hand at the stars*

What exactly is needed to scry on a monstrosity from the depths of space anyway?

[Destro2119]

So in PF the reaches of space are populated in no small part by the creatures of the Dominion of the Black and/or the Cthulhu mythos. Including literal Cthulhu.

Could one scry-and-die these guys as a means of getting out there? *vaguely waves hand at the stars*

What exactly is needed to scry on a monstrosity from the depths of space anyway?

I mean, if you've seen the sort of high op nonsense Quertus just laid down. Cthulhu is your b*tch, man.

In any case, we assume more Star Trek type space anyways.

[Quertus]

Is there some less ominous alternative to literal "necrotic tumors" in your whole setup?

There are many alternatives, from Mindrape to Epic Diplomacy. I chose the Necrotic tumors for a visceral "the gods have chosen to excise the tumor of failure from their world".

Also, because that's the tech a particular existing character had on hand.

Of note: they are completely unused after the initial takeover - subsequent generations (and other worlds) don't need them.

And, while we care whether other worlds join, in the same way a good person cares whether someone is starving to death, we're the most laid back, non-aggressive, non-pushy invasion force ever. We're already in paradise - we are just offering you the opportunity to join us. We don't gain anything from it but a clear conscience.


Also, what is "flying spaghetti monster" and

A meme people reference. Just a placeholder. Not important.


"tainted sorcerer"?

Ah. An OP prestige class. Sacrifice Wisdom for power. Extreme power. For simplicity, assume save DC is "you fail", and spell points are "plenty".

In reality, in this scenario, it's actually a vulnerability.

But, the important part is, the character is (supposed to feel like) the embodiment of »alignment«. Cut them open, and they bleed divine light and gears.


BTW, who are the other four guys of your "core team"?

Doesn't matter. Probably someone to cast "Teleport" for me, several people with True Resurrection, and the mandator 5-year-old advisor I kidnapped (or used someone's Leadership pool for, or…).

After the setup, my death completely stops the expansion (until the gods chose another Chosen One), but is completely irrelevant to the running of the existing Harmonious Paradises.


EDIT: Also, I would like you to clarify on a few things-- ho exactly do you travel through space to other planets?

Already answered:



How would I go other places? Knowledge checks to know of Sigil / Union / the infinite staircase / astral portals / shadow travel / Spelljamming / Teleport Through Time / Plane Shift / Fast Time Planes / whatever else.

Bolded the most relevant entries.

But "I" don't (outside the setup phase) - missionaries do.


What do your "missionaries" look like?

Folk. Whatever they want to look like, really, but mostly just folk.

Think "gene stealer cult".

I may have to "brand" "official" "missionaries".

Brand: create uniforms for

Official: as if they aren't all working for the Greater Good.

Missionaries: the official ones would bring more relevant stuff with them; the "unofficial" ones would just… gather information, tell tales, form "cults".


What does the "average citizen" look like/what can he do?

Whatever he wants. On both counts.

Most just look like folk. And ants. And ducks. And bacteria. And blades of grass. And every other living creature on a perfectly normal world.


How exactly do you "add disruptive invaders to your biomass?"

Their corpses add to the available matter. Circle of life.


I think the point of the rules is that you have to use spell slots for them, so theoretically there is less chance of ritual nonsense to bring down a DC. What now?

I can only repeat what I said already.

There are no rules for what level spell "planet-wide hive mind" or "grant power 'teleport at will' to citizens" are.

Or what level they become when you include, "requires 1,000 9th level spells, 2,000 8th level spells, 4,000 7th level spells…" etc to power the spell.

Or even "requires 200,000,000 followers calling out the name of the Doctor the names of the gods during the casting".

So, what can I do with those "rules"? I can point out that they consist of "mother may I" and a few pages of not terribly useful guidelines and examples… throw them in the trash, and point to the actual, concrete rules of 3e epic spells.

What can *you* do with those rules (other than ask "mother may I?")?


So in PF the reaches of space are populated in no small part by the creatures of the Dominion of the Black and/or the Cthulhu mythos. Including literal Cthulhu.

Could one scry-and-die these guys as a means of getting out there? *vaguely waves hand at the stars*

What exactly is needed to scry on a monstrosity from the depths of space anyway?

More sanity points than you have to spare :smallwink:

[Quertus]

I mean, if you've seen the sort of high op nonsense Quertus just laid down. Cthulhu is your b*tch, man.

In any case, we assume more Star Trek type space anyways.

Lol. I mean, it's hard to have "Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires" without "high op nonsense" - especially if they're to be created within a single lifespan.

[Quertus]

So, the flaws of my galactic empire are numerous.

The biggest is its benevolence. Because it doesn't exist where it's not wanted, missionaries have to leave Paradise in order to spread the Word. Clearly, then, missionaries are all Exalted Good, "put Paladins to shame" individuals who care very deeply about the suffering of others, to be willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, separated from the Collective, and sent out alone into the cold, unforgiving, Mythol-less, "Well of Souls"-less world to spread the word.

Another is, obviously, the "single point of failure" vulnerability represented by having only the single Architect. Without him, expansion is impossible. I suppose, if he makes it 8 levels beyond the minimum necessary to bring new worlds into Harmonious Convergence, he could always self-replicate via Mind Seed.

Then, of course, there's the war crimes. Although he followed the advice of "commit all your atrocities at the beginning of your reign", there's still the potential for the dark shadow of the past to haunt the benign glory of the Harmonious Convergence.

Plus, the end goal of uplifting every living thing, and bringing them into the light, may bring unforseen difficulties.

Also, it's "points of light" - every world has its *own* paradise, its own hive mind + well of souls + "Mythol".

And "space" is completely beyond its reach.

And numerous other flaws.

Still, I'm loving the idea of the benevolent intergalactic empire - and loving describing it in the most villainous terms, with a dark history.

Also loving having the founder parodying "Elminster" as the Chosen of the gods special snowflake. :P

[Destro2119]

So, the flaws of my galactic empire are numerous.

The biggest is its benevolence. Because it doesn't exist where it's not wanted, missionaries have to leave Paradise in order to spread the Word. Clearly, then, missionaries are all Exalted Good, "put Paladins to shame" individuals who care very deeply about the suffering of others, to be willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, separated from the Collective, and sent out alone into the cold, unforgiving, Mythol-less, "Well of Souls"-less world to spread the word.

Another is, obviously, the "single point of failure" vulnerability represented by having only the single Architect. Without him, expansion is impossible. I suppose, if he makes it 8 levels beyond the minimum necessary to bring new worlds into Harmonious Convergence, he could always self-replicate via Mind Seed.

Then, of course, there's the war crimes. Although he followed the advice of "commit all your atrocities at the beginning of your reign", there's still the potential for the dark shadow of the past to haunt the benign glory of the Harmonious Convergence.

Plus, the end goal of uplifting every living thing, and bringing them into the light, may bring unforseen difficulties.

Also, it's "points of light" - every world has its *own* paradise, its own hive mind + well of souls + "Mythol".

And "space" is completely beyond its reach.

And numerous other flaws.

Still, I'm loving the idea of the benevolent intergalactic empire - and loving describing it in the most villainous terms, with a dark history.

Also loving having the founder parodying "Elminster" as the Chosen of the gods special snowflake. :P

What do you mean "space is completely beyond its reach?"

Couldn't he make simulacrums, or trompe loils, or just have one of his cohorts/party members who are on the same level as him do it or just figure out some other way?

Could he beat Elminster in a fight :smalltongue:?

[Quertus]

What do you mean "space is completely beyond its reach?"

Couldn't he make simulacrums, or trompe loils, or just have one of his cohorts/party members who are on the same level as him do it or just figure out some other way?

Could he beat Elminster in a fight :smalltongue:?

The glorious Harmonious Convergence Field does not extend into space (or, at least, not *far* into space). The cold, dark, unforgiving void is forever beyond the reach of any from the Harmonious Convergence besides missionaries.

And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence.

(Yes, Simulacra and Trompe L'oeil of the gods are a possibility)

-----

If Elminster came to the home world of the Harmonious Convergence, outside the protections of his deities? Then he's just a guy - and one with notoriously horrifically bad tactics, at that. He would *literally* die to a blade of grass if he stepped out of line.

OTOH, should the Architect make trouble on Toril, Elminster would bend him over his knee and give him a sound smacking. (With his Wisdom penalty, he's not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

If they met in neutral territory, and the Architect listened to his 5-year-old advisor? Elminster is simultaneously so suboptimal (outside his "special snowflake" status) and so daft, my money would be on the Architect.

If he didn't listen to his 5-year-old advisor, it could go either way.

[Destro2119]

The glorious Harmonious Convergence Field does not extend into space (or, at least, not *far* into space). The cold, dark, unforgiving void is forever beyond the reach of any from the Harmonious Convergence besides missionaries.

And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence.

(Yes, Simulacra and Trompe L'oeil of the gods are a possibility)

-----

If Elminster came to the home world of the Harmonious Convergence, outside the protections of his deities? Then he's just a guy - and one with notoriously horrifically bad tactics, at that. He would *literally* die to a blade of grass if he stepped out of line.

OTOH, should the Architect make trouble on Toril, Elminster would bend him over his knee and give him a sound smacking. (With his Wisdom penalty, he's not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

If they met in neutral territory, and the Architect listened to his 5-year-old advisor? Elminster is simultaneously so suboptimal (outside his "special snowflake" status) and so daft, my money would be on the Architect.

If he didn't listen to his 5-year-old advisor, it could go either way.

"And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence."

I'm going to need a better definition for this-- what exactly is you "morality" system for the Harmonious Convergence?

Also, out of curiosity, if there was an invading force coming to a Harmonious Convergence planet (say the Federation from Star Trek has decided you are a threat on the level of the Borg) how would the HC fight back? What exactly does the HC Field do to help them to fight?

[Quertus]

"And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence."

I'm going to need a better definition for this-- what exactly is you "morality" system for the Harmonious Convergence?

That's… complicated.

Imagine Delenn screaming, "Life is my goal!"

Imagine Yoda concerned that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

Imagine a transhumanist, post-scarcity society.

Imagine the Borg… but happy, and with *almost* individual thoughts.

Let's start with the transhumanist Borg, actually.

Imagine that, not unlike the Borg, you're dealing with a hive mind. But each individual is aware of the hive mind, *plus* many other minds - including their own. But, as transhumanists, they have been the tree, the worm, and the man biting into the apple. They may, like someone immersed in a good story, forget which of those actors they are at this moment.

Everything is aware of everything, and everything moves by design, in perfect harmony, like the great gears of Mechanus. Nobody really *seems* different (aside from being really happy), but… nobody accidentally steps on a bug, deer/pets don't jump out in front of cars, etc. Everything is just a little too perfect. Because *absolutely everything* is working together to make it so. Birds start spontaneously singing on romantic dates. Disney princesses are a thing. Whatever.

And everything alive can transform into any other lifeform at will. Complete Transhumanity.

Everything *looks* like a perfectly normal world, because that's the stories people's minds are used to, that's what they're enjoying experiencing.

And everyone is working together to make everything perfect, and everyone is just so danged happy, plugged in to (in effect) hundreds of channels of TV all at once.

It's circuses and peanuts, on steroids.

It's a respect for all life, shared by all.

It's bliss on tap.

It's being one with the universe (or, at least, one with the world).

But that oneness ends in the void.

Out there, you are alone. Individual. Unplugged. You may still respect life, but you don't *know* what it wants, and it doesn't *know* what you want. You can't help each other - at least not without highly suboptimal methods, like communication and guessing. Your actions and even individual footsteps are no longer ordered by The Architect, and you could accidentally step on a bug or run over an animal, or otherwise cause unintentional harm, or be unintentionally harmed. You don't catch a cold when it's dramatically appropriate, you do so in accordance with the random whims of physics. Etc.

You would never willingly force such an existence upon another.

You want everyone to be whatever they want to be, have whatever they need, experience all that life has to offer. Yes, including eating meat, because animals are tasty. And they know and understand this. Birds still eat bugs, lions still eat lambs, but everything is recycled in the Well of Souls. Even if you are currently dead (or don't come back at all), you are still part of the Collective, still experiencing the lives of others. (EDIT: until you choose to pass on)

A few brave souls are sufficient martyrs that they are willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, unplugged from the hive mind, and become missionaries, spreading the word of the Harmonious Convergence to poor, static, disconnected worlds. They are willing to share the joy of Unity and Fulfillment with anyone who asks (mechanically, I expect that they need a large enough following that foreign gods have an established foothold, at which point a Simulacrum of one of said deities will arrive to act as the focal point for the creation of a new Harmonious Convergence Field). No one outside those who want to join is affected - but those who do join are blessed.


Also, out of curiosity, if there was an invading force coming to a Harmonious Convergence planet (say the Federation from Star Trek has decided you are a threat on the level of the Borg) how would the HC fight back? What exactly does the HC Field do to help them to fight?

(EDIT: this response was written assuming that they were attacking the Source world. Newer converts would be more violent, more creative… and have less backup)

Everyone is aware of everything. And anywhere they want to be. And whatever they want to be. Hive mind, at will Teleportation, at will PaO.

Death is a revolving door (if forms have been invented that have True Resurrection as a SLA; otherwise, it's much slower, waiting on Blood Money or Tainted Sorcerer shenanigans for free True Resurrection).

*If* the federation could get there (note that I said that the planet is cut off, but those federation types could doubtless eventually figure out a way to traverse 7 dimensions to get there), they could simply bombard the planet with impunity… at least until a) we developed new forms with interplanetary range on perception and attacks, or b) the gods just appeared on the ships, and started wrecking havoc.

Or The Architect might try Diplomacy. 200,000,000 Aid Another rolls should help a bit, right?

EDIT: if the Harmonious Convergence is allowed to evolve long enough before disturbed, it *wouldn't* fight back. Eventually, their respect for life would prohibit them from harming their attackers. They would be like… the Douwd, trying to convince the Husnock to go away.


"And then came the Federation, a species of hideous intelligence, who knew only aggression and destruction. They rained fire and death down upon the world for 40 days and 40 nights, until The Architect wrote the story of the fall of the Harmonious Convergence. We all acted out our parts, and Aided The Architect in his great Bluff. And so the evil Federation left, to seek out new life and new civilizations to harass. And joy returned to the Harmonious Convergence once more."

-- Grant Shademor, uplifted oak, The Book of Harmony, aka the History Channel, volume XXXI.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Hoping it's not too late, still writing up and working on builds for this.

[noob]

Depends on your citizens. An empire is not just what the people at the top can do (the pcs), which is anuthing and everything.

Random musings on npcs (long)

Bob the farmer just wants some land, low taxes, feed his family, put a bit aside for lean months, and protection from the myriad things thay can hurt him and his. He does not mind magic but probably does not trust it, definately does not rely on it. He will not farm in a demiplane thats only accessible by magic means. Thats MOST of a settings population.

Joe the merchant has a knack for befriending people. He travels constantly and has friends everywhere. He also makes a modest profit which he uses prudently, but he is not unknown to excess. He thinks magic is neat and if it helps him and eases his burdens, he is all for it. He probably has some magical protection containers for sensative goods, maybe just simple hold portal with a key to bypass. He would love cheap or free long distance travel.

Galf the blacksmith makes fine weapons and armor. For 100 years he has ran his forge and he will run it 100 mire Moradin willing. He does a brisk trade in adventuring gear, and has partnerships with a few magic users to consign, enchant, and improve magical gear. He handles the physical and buisness tasks, but he is not leaving his forge anytime soon. He is very comfortable with magic and would access to a wider range of markets.

George the guard is a solid sort. He trained with the army a bit and considered adventuring, but his duty is to protect those he cares about. He appreciates a fine magic spear but that is most of his contact with magic. He know his job is to deal with some local thugs, an occasional goblin that sneaks in and a few wild animals. He is smart enough to know when he is outclassed, and he does not relish the idea of a lone fiend or an angel walking the streets, let alone many.

Cheri is the towns healer. She is the go to for her peoples magical needs, can cure devils chills or most poxes, throw a bit of offensive magic in dire straights, but mostly focuses on making useful potions for the well to do and easing the burdens as she can for the rest. She would love to have wider access to reagents but knows with more magic comes many more issues which many are not equipped to deal with. She is cautiously optimiatic.

Lady Sera of the House Domire is the preeminent socialite of her city. She know who is who, what the latest and greatest fashions are, and always has the jucieat gossip and wonderful stories. She lives a life of excess and has no time for mundane foolishness. She disdains drudgery and always has someone do the menial work for her. She adores travelling to exotic locales and has a modest collection of curios, some of which are magical. The opportunity to one up her peers with an even better tale or trinket never escapes her.

Moat commeners cannot or will not easily live in such a place willingly. Said commeners are also the source of most food production, so they become your big hurdles. If you want to make it successful without going tippyverse, you need to convince them first. You can invalidate them with spell traps or what have you, but that leads to revolt, so that needs to be dealt with.

Your experts would likely love opportunities to expand their spheres of influence, so they would welcome the change provided it does not interfere with production.

Your warriors are also invalidated, because they cannot hope to deal with threats beyond lowest CRs. They would also need something to keep them placated. They are armed and in your cities already so they are a potential issue. Or you need to upgrade them drastically to have a reasonable chance of still.being good. Leadership and a bunch of warblades?

Adepts need to maintain their niche though as you grow larger pc classes would replace them. However, this are magic users who are in your walls. Maybe a council of elders over various wards? These are magic users en masse in your walls can do more successful sabotage and issurection than anyone else.

Your aristocrats see new areas to exploit, and they would jump on it quickly provided they are assured their power base and lifestyle would not be compromised.

So you solve food and protection first, then you start mercantile. Your nobles and merchants/craftsmen will profit considerably. But you need to be sure tou are super careful in integration with other stronger/better/different races. SLA races like mind flayers or the like upset your adepts so you need to be very careful there.

After solving food, protection, trade, snd the social issues, next you need education, possibly with mandated military time. Transition everyone to PC classes.

Bob the farmers son, Bob Jr. the druid is substantially better for everyone. He will help plants grow better, ensure there are fewer if any bad harvests, increase production, and is less dependent on protection from the guards. Same with everyone else. You need to do it for everyone at no cost, so you do not have a power disparity that rips your nation apart.

When your merchants are bards or beguilers, your craftsmen wizards and clerics, your guards crusaders, warblades and swordsages, your nobles marshalls, you adepts clerics, druids and wizards, you can get serious with expansion.

You now have a populace than can fare and compete both militaristically and mercantily with stronger races. You outclass normal humanoids and will subsume or replace all their empires, and can stand with most exceptional creatures. From there you rinse and repeat, 2 generations per world should do it.
bob the commoner does not needs to see the town: they just need to get fresh new well crafted tools and clothes and other varied hard to get stuff like salt from joe that buys the scarce non magically created food which sells at a high cost due to the curiosity of the food not having been made in a magical way.
Joe did give a better deal to bob than any other merchant could have because joe can use the scarcity of the non magical food to sell it at a high cost in the town so bob is happy(joe is too) and he might know the food is sent to a magical place but they do not need to see it.

[Destro2119]

That's… complicated.

Imagine Delenn screaming, "Life is my goal!"

Imagine Yoda concerned that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

Imagine a transhumanist, post-scarcity society.

Imagine the Borg… but happy, and with *almost* individual thoughts.

Let's start with the transhumanist Borg, actually.

Imagine that, not unlike the Borg, you're dealing with a hive mind. But each individual is aware of the hive mind, *plus* many other minds - including their own. But, as transhumanists, they have been the tree, the worm, and the man biting into the apple. They may, like someone immersed in a good story, forget which of those actors they are at this moment.

Everything is aware of everything, and everything moves by design, in perfect harmony, like the great gears of Mechanus. Nobody really *seems* different (aside from being really happy), but… nobody accidentally steps on a bug, deer/pets don't jump out in front of cars, etc. Everything is just a little too perfect. Because *absolutely everything* is working together to make it so. Birds start spontaneously singing on romantic dates. Disney princesses are a thing. Whatever.

And everything alive can transform into any other lifeform at will. Complete Transhumanity.

Everything *looks* like a perfectly normal world, because that's the stories people's minds are used to, that's what they're enjoying experiencing.

And everyone is working together to make everything perfect, and everyone is just so danged happy, plugged in to (in effect) hundreds of channels of TV all at once.

It's circuses and peanuts, on steroids.

It's a respect for all life, shared by all.

It's bliss on tap.

It's being one with the universe (or, at least, one with the world).

But that oneness ends in the void.

Out there, you are alone. Individual. Unplugged. You may still respect life, but you don't *know* what it wants, and it doesn't *know* what you want. You can't help each other - at least not without highly suboptimal methods, like communication and guessing. Your actions and even individual footsteps are no longer ordered by The Architect, and you could accidentally step on a bug or run over an animal, or otherwise cause unintentional harm, or be unintentionally harmed. You don't catch a cold when it's dramatically appropriate, you do so in accordance with the random whims of physics. Etc.

You would never willingly force such an existence upon another.

You want everyone to be whatever they want to be, have whatever they need, experience all that life has to offer. Yes, including eating meat, because animals are tasty. And they know and understand this. Birds still eat bugs, lions still eat lambs, but everything is recycled in the Well of Souls. Even if you are currently dead (or don't come back at all), you are still part of the Collective, still experiencing the lives of others. (EDIT: until you choose to pass on)

A few brave souls are sufficient martyrs that they are willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, unplugged from the hive mind, and become missionaries, spreading the word of the Harmonious Convergence to poor, static, disconnected worlds. They are willing to share the joy of Unity and Fulfillment with anyone who asks (mechanically, I expect that they need a large enough following that foreign gods have an established foothold, at which point a Simulacrum of one of said deities will arrive to act as the focal point for the creation of a new Harmonious Convergence Field). No one outside those who want to join is affected - but those who do join are blessed.



(EDIT: this response was written assuming that they were attacking the Source world. Newer converts would be more violent, more creative… and have less backup)

Everyone is aware of everything. And anywhere they want to be. And whatever they want to be. Hive mind, at will Teleportation, at will PaO.

Death is a revolving door (if forms have been invented that have True Resurrection as a SLA; otherwise, it's much slower, waiting on Blood Money or Tainted Sorcerer shenanigans for free True Resurrection).

*If* the federation could get there (note that I said that the planet is cut off, but those federation types could doubtless eventually figure out a way to traverse 7 dimensions to get there), they could simply bombard the planet with impunity… at least until a) we developed new forms with interplanetary range on perception and attacks, or b) the gods just appeared on the ships, and started wrecking havoc.

Or The Architect might try Diplomacy. 200,000,000 Aid Another rolls should help a bit, right?

EDIT: if the Harmonious Convergence is allowed to evolve long enough before disturbed, it *wouldn't* fight back. Eventually, their respect for life would prohibit them from harming their attackers. They would be like… the Douwd, trying to convince the Husnock to go away.


"And then came the Federation, a species of hideous intelligence, who knew only aggression and destruction. They rained fire and death down upon the world for 40 days and 40 nights, until The Architect wrote the story of the fall of the Harmonious Convergence. We all acted out our parts, and Aided The Architect in his great Bluff. And so the evil Federation left, to seek out new life and new civilizations to harass. And joy returned to the Harmonious Convergence once more."

-- Grant Shademor, uplifted oak, The Book of Harmony, aka the History Channel, volume XXXI.

Hey, what IS the Well of Souls anyways? I don't think it is written up in any book.

[Quertus]

Hey, what IS the Well of Souls anyways? I don't think it is written up in any book.

It's written up in several, but this is not that.

Conceptually, a "Well of Souls" is a source for souls for newborns.

The "Well of Souls" Dwoemer a) collects souls, shepherding them from the jaws of the afterlife until they choose to pass on; b) ensures their continued feed to the Hive Mind; c) draws from these collected souls to grant souls to temporary creations.

It means that, while you were dead, you didn't miss out on the latest episodes of Star Trek, and PaO pebble to wyvern, the wyvern is part of the Collective. (Thus, younger Collectives don't have the stockpile of souls to draw upon, and their PaO creations are… not inherently part of the Collective.

Also, I imagine many souls (ants, for example) are simply recycled. But that's just my own personal take on how things might turn out - you'd have to ask the Harmonious Convergence what their souls *actually* want.

[ezekielraiden]

Party: Fully PO optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, and Bard (with full Sublime Chord casting). [Alternately, Shadowcraft Mage with beyond-100%-real illusions.]

I play things pretty LG, so each party member will be as close to that as possible for theme and optimization. (E.g. I imagine the Druid is NG and the Bard is CG.)

We assume these characters have found a means to be immune to the ordinary ravages of time; either they are properly immortal, or simply do not age. For example, the Druid is a Planar Shepherd, probably tied to Syrania.

Very importantly: this may be an "empire" in the 4x strategy game sense, but it is NOT going to be an "empire" in the actual real-world sense of the term, neither in organization nor in authority. It is not a realm which extracts resources from the provinces to enrich the core. It is, properly, an interstellar/interplanar nation, one built on the goal of making ALL parts as equally supported and infrastructurally sound as the "core" of an empire would be.

From there, it's a simple matter of three things: Solve Problems, Create Prosperity, and Build Lasting Impact.

Solving problems is pretty simple--it's how this group got to 20th level in the first place. It's how they earned their places on representative councils or as leaders of organizations. While not perfect, they dedicate themselves to ideals of integrity, responsibility, and cooperation. They go out and find places where there is preventable suffering, and not only address the current problems, but build up the locals to ensure that they can address most of their own problems going forward. This kind of thing has a tendency to earn one a positive reputation, so it is not simply Hero Syndrome nor XP farm: this is also outreach, diplomacy by action. By building a reputation of solving problems and genuinely working for the betterment of societies, this party can connect disparate peoples and provide lines of communication that might not otherwise exist. This provides the foundation for unification.

Creating Prosperity is a matter of meeting the needs of large populations without need for labor or hardship. The Druid and Wizard will be the primary force on this front, but all of them provide benefits of one form or another. Constructing and filling demiplanes with endless supplies of food and tireless, eternal laborers (e.g. permanent unseen servants or the like), making reusable traps or objects that produce potable water (e.g. decanter of endless water), mass-producing items that provide continuous endure elements effects, and shaping the world to provide housing for all who desire it--that's the foundation of a partial post-scarcity society. ("Partial" in the sense of some materials are still scarce, but fundamental survival needs are all met.) Addressing disease is of course the next hurdle, but the Cleric and maybe Bard have that covered. Crafting costs are paid through either the rewards gathered from Solving Problems, or through resource-gathering missions to planar locations (like the Plane of Earth).

With fundamental needs met and basic resources either nigh-infinite or available to acquire without conflict, the final challenge of sapient life comes into view: making this worth living. That's where Building Lasting Impact matters. Creating the institutions and social resources (jobs, teachers, opportunities, competitions, etc.) so that anyone who wishes to do a (prosocial) thing is supported in doing so. With demiplanes and their inherently can't-be-depleted ecologies, hunting and botanical experimentation can be done to whatever degree desired without damaging the foundation of this society. With illusions capable of achieving near total reality, any fantastical scenario imaginable can be manufactured--creating demand for illusionists capable of such feats. Lasting impact also involves building the mores, values, institutions, and laws/rules that can stand the test of time: writings, teaching generations of scientists/philosophers/politicians/lawyers etc., creating incentive structures, preparing for wrinkles as much as humanly possible, etc. In comparison to the first two, this is the long, slow, "tedious" part, but genuine dedication to getting it done and making it work is required if you have the ambition to make a pan-galactic civilization that can stand the test of time and survive even if *you* drop out of the picture for some reason.

I imagine the progress would be very slow at first, but accelerate with time as they can re-apply lessons and concepts from prior "uplifted" worlds. At a century, they might only have a handful of worlds fully developed. After a millennium, I would expect a sizable star nation, but probably nowhere near the whole galaxy. These folks are doing it personally each time, because it's worth their while to do it right and take the time to get it done. That does mean they're "letting" worlds go "unfixed" for a longer time, but they have the long game in mind. They need to make sure each world actually is addressed in, of, and for itself, not as a means to an end but as an end itself.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Are there any limits other than the 3.p rules to use? Anything within the rules yeah?

[Destro2119]

Are there any limits other than the 3.p rules to use? Anything within the rules yeah?

No not really, other than I disallow uber cheese like singularity sorcerer/painter wizard/candle of invocation wish spam.

EDIT: Yeah, I know allowing leadership chaining is just as much uber cheese, but it is realistic enough to IRL that I am letting it happen.

[Destro2119]

Party: Fully PO optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, and Bard (with full Sublime Chord casting). [Alternately, Shadowcraft Mage with beyond-100%-real illusions.]

I play things pretty LG, so each party member will be as close to that as possible for theme and optimization. (E.g. I imagine the Druid is NG and the Bard is CG.)

We assume these characters have found a means to be immune to the ordinary ravages of time; either they are properly immortal, or simply do not age. For example, the Druid is a Planar Shepherd, probably tied to Syrania.

Very importantly: this may be an "empire" in the 4x strategy game sense, but it is NOT going to be an "empire" in the actual real-world sense of the term, neither in organization nor in authority. It is not a realm which extracts resources from the provinces to enrich the core. It is, properly, an interstellar/interplanar nation, one built on the goal of making ALL parts as equally supported and infrastructurally sound as the "core" of an empire would be.

From there, it's a simple matter of three things: Solve Problems, Create Prosperity, and Build Lasting Impact.

Solving problems is pretty simple--it's how this group got to 20th level in the first place. It's how they earned their places on representative councils or as leaders of organizations. While not perfect, they dedicate themselves to ideals of integrity, responsibility, and cooperation. They go out and find places where there is preventable suffering, and not only address the current problems, but build up the locals to ensure that they can address most of their own problems going forward. This kind of thing has a tendency to earn one a positive reputation, so it is not simply Hero Syndrome nor XP farm: this is also outreach, diplomacy by action. By building a reputation of solving problems and genuinely working for the betterment of societies, this party can connect disparate peoples and provide lines of communication that might not otherwise exist. This provides the foundation for unification.

Creating Prosperity is a matter of meeting the needs of large populations without need for labor or hardship. The Druid and Wizard will be the primary force on this front, but all of them provide benefits of one form or another. Constructing and filling demiplanes with endless supplies of food and tireless, eternal laborers (e.g. permanent unseen servants or the like), making reusable traps or objects that produce potable water (e.g. decanter of endless water), mass-producing items that provide continuous endure elements effects, and shaping the world to provide housing for all who desire it--that's the foundation of a partial post-scarcity society. ("Partial" in the sense of some materials are still scarce, but fundamental survival needs are all met.) Addressing disease is of course the next hurdle, but the Cleric and maybe Bard have that covered. Crafting costs are paid through either the rewards gathered from Solving Problems, or through resource-gathering missions to planar locations (like the Plane of Earth).

With fundamental needs met and basic resources either nigh-infinite or available to acquire without conflict, the final challenge of sapient life comes into view: making this worth living. That's where Building Lasting Impact matters. Creating the institutions and social resources (jobs, teachers, opportunities, competitions, etc.) so that anyone who wishes to do a (prosocial) thing is supported in doing so. With demiplanes and their inherently can't-be-depleted ecologies, hunting and botanical experimentation can be done to whatever degree desired without damaging the foundation of this society. With illusions capable of achieving near total reality, any fantastical scenario imaginable can be manufactured--creating demand for illusionists capable of such feats. Lasting impact also involves building the mores, values, institutions, and laws/rules that can stand the test of time: writings, teaching generations of scientists/philosophers/politicians/lawyers etc., creating incentive structures, preparing for wrinkles as much as humanly possible, etc. In comparison to the first two, this is the long, slow, "tedious" part, but genuine dedication to getting it done and making it work is required if you have the ambition to make a pan-galactic civilization that can stand the test of time and survive even if *you* drop out of the picture for some reason.

I imagine the progress would be very slow at first, but accelerate with time as they can re-apply lessons and concepts from prior "uplifted" worlds. At a century, they might only have a handful of worlds fully developed. After a millennium, I would expect a sizable star nation, but probably nowhere near the whole galaxy. These folks are doing it personally each time, because it's worth their while to do it right and take the time to get it done. That does mean they're "letting" worlds go "unfixed" for a longer time, but they have the long game in mind. They need to make sure each world actually is addressed in, of, and for itself, not as a means to an end but as an end itself.

How would your "empire" interact with the Star Trek Federation?

Also, exactly how optimized is the party? I want to make sure you are not overstepping the "cheese boundary" I have set.

[Empyreal Dragon]

Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.

[Destro2119]

Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.

Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.

[Quertus]

No not really, other than I disallow uber cheese like singularity sorcerer/painter wizard/candle of invocation wish spam.


Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.


Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.

Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?

[Destro2119]

Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?


Yeah, sounds about right.

Also, look up painter wizard. It is the poster child of PF broken nonsense.

[noob]

Yeah, sounds about right.

Also, look up painter wizard. It is the poster child of PF broken nonsense.

Is it just spamming trompe l'oeuils of overpowered creatures(including creatures that can create more trompe l'oeuils and whatever) with craft construct?

[Quertus]

Is it just spamming trompe l'oeuils of overpowered creatures(including creatures that can create more trompe l'oeuils and whatever) with craft construct?

Pretty much. It apparently abuses Wishes, NI wealth shenanigans, and town availability rules… plus custom demiplanes (utilizing fast time shenanigans and timeless traits, of course)… to get NI paint… to make NI paintings able to make more paintings.

Pretty much the standard "every bit of silly we can find", zero creativity… tied into, in this case, paint-based Minionmancy.

And uses the obscure rule (that apparently nobody knew last time I brought up Trompe L'oeil *grumble, grumble*) that, in PF, created constructs obey your orders.

[ezekielraiden]

How would your "empire" interact with the Star Trek Federation?
They would be seen as a valuable ally. The Federation has pretty clear ambition to become the overall galactic state (and beyond, if technology permits), just as my budding nation does. Overall strategy between the two would depend on their relative size at first contact. If my "empire" met the Federation when the latter covers half the Alpha and Beta quadrants, then it would seek to become a member state and essentially piggy-back on the Federation's successful absorption of so many planets and cultures. Given the value to be obtained by adding magic to the Federation's already extreme technological capacity, this would clearly be beneficial for both parties. If, on the other hand, my...let's call it Republic of Worlds, were the significantly larger of the two, it would seek to peacefully integrate the Federation in like manner--from an outside perspective, the difference between the two processes would be minimal, as it would mostly be a matter of whose laws form the foundation of the resulting state, but ultimately the two would be on a clear trajectory toward unification. If the two states are of about equal size and importance....probably would favor becoming a member of the Federation (or, rather, having the member states of the Republic of Worlds dissolve the Republic and each individually join the Federation).


Also, exactly how optimized is the party? I want to make sure you are not overstepping the "cheese boundary" I have set.
"PO" stands for "practical optimization." It avoids obviously broken cheese and infinite loops, but otherwise pursues optimized results even if they don't always make total sense. Key example there being a shadow mage whose illusions are more than 100% real, or which become even more real after "succeeding" on a save to disbelieve them.

In build terms, Pun-pun is automatically forbidden under a PO approach, but Planar Shepherd is not automatically forbidden. Certain crap you can pull might be, but the PrC itself is legal.


Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.
Absolutely not. Nigh-infinite looping, frex, would not be a thing. Leadership-type effects, on the other hand, are kind of implied by the premise, since this party is implicitly leading the creation of an organization at the level of planets.


Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?
Yep, just so. There's still a ridiculous amount you can do even within those rules.

[Destro2119]

They would be seen as a valuable ally. The Federation has pretty clear ambition to become the overall galactic state (and beyond, if technology permits), just as my budding nation does. Overall strategy between the two would depend on their relative size at first contact. If my "empire" met the Federation when the latter covers half the Alpha and Beta quadrants, then it would seek to become a member state and essentially piggy-back on the Federation's successful absorption of so many planets and cultures. Given the value to be obtained by adding magic to the Federation's already extreme technological capacity, this would clearly be beneficial for both parties. If, on the other hand, my...let's call it Republic of Worlds, were the significantly larger of the two, it would seek to peacefully integrate the Federation in like manner--from an outside perspective, the difference between the two processes would be minimal, as it would mostly be a matter of whose laws form the foundation of the resulting state, but ultimately the two would be on a clear trajectory toward unification. If the two states are of about equal size and importance....probably would favor becoming a member of the Federation (or, rather, having the member states of the Republic of Worlds dissolve the Republic and each individually join the Federation).


"PO" stands for "practical optimization." It avoids obviously broken cheese and infinite loops, but otherwise pursues optimized results even if they don't always make total sense. Key example there being a shadow mage whose illusions are more than 100% real, or which become even more real after "succeeding" on a save to disbelieve them.

In build terms, Pun-pun is automatically forbidden under a PO approach, but Planar Shepherd is not automatically forbidden. Certain crap you can pull might be, but the PrC itself is legal.


Absolutely not. Nigh-infinite looping, frex, would not be a thing. Leadership-type effects, on the other hand, are kind of implied by the premise, since this party is implicitly leading the creation of an organization at the level of planets.


Yep, just so. There's still a ridiculous amount you can do even within those rules.

What if the Federation decided to war with your Republic (since they are basically space facists :smalltongue:)?

[ezekielraiden]

What if the Federation decided to war with your Republic (since they are basically space facists :smalltongue:)?

Uh...who's space fascist here?

The Federation is a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. The Republic I have proposed would likewise be a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. In both cases, the vast bulk of the citizenry live as they choose. Freedom of expression, assembly, individuality, and belief are all demonstrated, and the right to due process, privacy, and bodily autonomy are likewise shown. There is no demonization of external forces, nor a leashing of private enterprise to the state's control. None of the hallmarks of "fascism" are present in either nation, so I'm deeply confused as to why you would use that term in this context.

(Note that I reject the ways things have developed in Picard, as that's just made Star Trek yet another grimdark angst fest for no reason. Likewise, anything relating to the movie that made gorram Khan Noonien Singh an important security advisor for the Federation! The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)

[Quertus]

The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)

Oh man. I tried to share Star Trek with the Next Generation. After the show, I tried to gauge their reaction:

Me: "who's your favorite character?"

Young girl: "none of them."

Me: "…what?"

Young girl: "none of them."

She went on to explain how this one was incompetent, that one was a liar, etc, giving the most thought-out description of the characters I'd heard.

Then she summed up with, "so, none of them.".

Although the experience left me very proud of her, it left me equally sad for what had become of Star Trek.

[Destro2119]

Uh...who's space fascist here?

The Federation is a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. The Republic I have proposed would likewise be a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. In both cases, the vast bulk of the citizenry live as they choose. Freedom of expression, assembly, individuality, and belief are all demonstrated, and the right to due process, privacy, and bodily autonomy are likewise shown. There is no demonization of external forces, nor a leashing of private enterprise to the state's control. None of the hallmarks of "fascism" are present in either nation, so I'm deeply confused as to why you would use that term in this context.

(Note that I reject the ways things have developed in Picard, as that's just made Star Trek yet another grimdark angst fest for no reason. Likewise, anything relating to the movie that made gorram Khan Noonien Singh an important security advisor for the Federation! The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)

There are a bunch of examples, like Kirk getting yeeted out of the ship for daring to defy the council with no trial. Plus, every episode is a ship's log by a STARFLEET captain and could be biased. Also the Prime Directive was stated by an actor in Star Trek to be "fascist nonsense."

IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?

[ezekielraiden]

There are a bunch of examples, like Kirk getting yeeted out of the ship for daring to defy the council with no trial. Plus, every episode is a ship's log by a STARFLEET captain and could be biased. Also the Prime Directive was stated by an actor in Star Trek to be "fascist nonsense."
He's a military officer, subject to the exigencies of political stuff. You can be stripped of rank without trial in plenty of real-world non-fascist nations, especially when you openly defy orders from your commander-in-chief and break actual civil laws. That he got away without a trial is, if anything, a kindness--he COULD have been tried and sentenced under Federation law, but they let him off relatively gently in light of his storied career.

And, yes, I'm well aware that the military-scientific bias is present, but things like Deep Space Nine cover that quite well and show more than a little of what it's like to be a Federation civilian. Indeed, not always ones that get along with the Federation government.

"Fascism" should not be thrown around casually as if it were simply a synonym for totalitarianism or abuse of human rights. It means something specific.


IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?

If somehow that happened, the Republic would defend itself, of course. Magic is quite capable of defeating a variety of Trek technology, e.g. via invisibility or globes of invulnerability. Conquest would be unnecessary, merely defense and denial of resources.

The point of interacting with other cultures is to demonstrate the ability to succeed more, to do better, to live more fully, through cooperation rather than conquest. If the Federation were truly an oppressive regime, then breaking that regime and enabling its people to live as their overlords claim they do would be a major victory. If it is not an oppressive regime, then cooperation and coordination can permit greater success than individual efforts could.

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." Sun Tzu, The Art of War. How better to break resistance than to befriend, and thus make resistance unnecessary--to induce your enemy to willingly cease resisting?

[unseenmage]

It doesnt help you get there but it DOES give you somewhere to go, the Create Treasure Map (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Create%20Treasure%20Map #:~:text=You%20can%20take%20a%20piece,the%20castin g%20of%20this%20spell.) spell when used on an extraterrestrial corpse could be interesting/amusing.

Additionally PF natively has both a Terraformer Robot (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Terraformer%20Robot) and Terraform (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Terraform) spell.
Though, to me, neither seems quite up to the task their name implies they're capable of.

[Destro2119]

It doesnt help you get there but it DOES give you somewhere to go, the Create Treasure Map (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Create%20Treasure%20Map #:~:text=You%20can%20take%20a%20piece,the%20castin g%20of%20this%20spell.) spell when used on an extraterrestrial corpse could be interesting/amusing.

Additionally PF natively has both a Terraformer Robot (https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Terraformer%20Robot) and Terraform (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Terraform) spell.
Though, to me, neither seems quite up to the task their name implies they're capable of.

Frankly, the latter two things you mentioned are more for "quirky roleplay" than anything mechanical. I think any magical Terraforming should just be an epic spell or something that actually terraforms a large place.

[Quertus]

So, I decided on my "infinite staircase" alternate tech. It's based on focusing on particular experiences. So, for instance, there might be a passage from the gates of Waterdeep to the boudoir of the Lady of Pain triggered by thinking about absorbing honey through your roots. And one from the Tarrasque's mouth to Mordenkainen's study triggered by remembering being launched from a catapult while pretending to be an ordinary, inanimate stone.

Every place is connected by some obscure combination of thought that is difficult to accidentally trigger, but possible for the transhumanist Harmonious Convergence to experience and utilize.

[Destro2119]

Posting here b/c your inbox might be full, Quertus:

Why specifically those two rules (Spell points/mother cyst)? What do they actually, mechanically do that helps you?

[Destro2119]

So, I decided on my "infinite staircase" alternate tech. It's based on focusing on particular experiences. So, for instance, there might be a passage from the gates of Waterdeep to the boudoir of the Lady of Pain triggered by thinking about absorbing honey through your roots. And one from the Tarrasque's mouth to Mordenkainen's study triggered by remembering being launched from a catapult while pretending to be an ordinary, inanimate stone.

Every place is connected by some obscure combination of thought that is difficult to accidentally trigger, but possible for the transhumanist Harmonious Convergence to experience and utilize.

Posting here b/c your inbox might be full, Quertus:

Why specifically those two rules (Spell points/mother cyst)? What do they actually, mechanically do that helps you?

[Quertus]

Posting here b/c your inbox might be full, Quertus:

Why specifically those two rules (Spell points/mother cyst)? What do they actually, mechanically do that helps you?

Why those two rules? Because to help answer the classic question of, "what's my motivation", I started off with an existing character as a baseline, and used the tech that they were familiar with.

Also, it was just funny, the visual of having the gods want to rejoice the tumor of failure from their world… with Necrotic Tumors.

Many other methods could have been used instead.

-----

What do they do that helps? They allow an increased number of castings of the same spell or spells per day. They provide a method of takeover that is harder to circumvent. They don't require much maintenance.

This way, the Architect can mostly get ahead of news of their takeover of the world.

-----

Really, all of my parameters were chosen to make it seem even remotely realistic (versimilitudinal) that one person (or 5 people) could take over the world within a human lifespan. Having the backing off all the gods, being the only epic level character that they allow, true Elminster levels of Mary Sue here, but that satisfied my special snowflake requirements for how it made sense that they could do this, yet no one else ever had done so before.

[Destro2119]

Why those two rules? Because to help answer the classic question of, "what's my motivation", I started off with an existing character as a baseline, and used the tech that they were familiar with.

Also, it was just funny, the visual of having the gods want to rejoice the tumor of failure from their world… with Necrotic Tumors.

Many other methods could have been used instead.

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What do they do that helps? They allow an increased number of castings of the same spell or spells per day. They provide a method of takeover that is harder to circumvent. They don't require much maintenance.

This way, the Architect can mostly get ahead of news of their takeover of the world.

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Really, all of my parameters were chosen to make it seem even remotely realistic (versimilitudinal) that one person (or 5 people) could take over the world within a human lifespan. Having the backing off all the gods, being the only epic level character that they allow, true Elminster levels of Mary Sue here, but that satisfied my special snowflake requirements for how it made sense that they could do this, yet no one else ever had done so before.

"increased number of castings of the same spell or spells per day."

But spell points doesn't give you extra spells per day.

[Quertus]

"increased number of castings of the same spell or spells per day."

But spell points doesn't give you extra spells per day.

Ignoring my brother's objection to the system that, in fact, it *does* "give you extra spells per day" (at least at low levels)…

Suppose a caster got… meh… 5/5/5/4/3 spells per day. That's (5*1)+(5*3)+(5*5)+(4*7)+(3*9)=5+15+25+28+27=100 spell points.

They could, for example, spend those points to cast 11 5th level spells, or 14 4th level spells, or 20 3rd level spells, or 33 2nd level spells, or 100 1st level spells.

That's a lot more than 5 :smallwink:

Given that this plan really only involved casting 3 spells, spell points are advantageous for reducing the amount of time necessary to get the required number of castings.

[Destro2119]

Ignoring my brother's objection to the system that, in fact, it *does* "give you extra spells per day" (at least at low levels)…

Suppose a caster got… meh… 5/5/5/4/3 spells per day. That's (5*1)+(5*3)+(5*5)+(4*7)+(3*9)=5+15+25+28+27=100 spell points.

They could, for example, spend those points to cast 11 5th level spells, or 14 4th level spells, or 20 3rd level spells, or 33 2nd level spells, or 100 1st level spells.

That's a lot more than 5 :smallwink:

Given that this plan really only involved casting 3 spells, spell points are advantageous for reducing the amount of time necessary to get the required number of castings.

That seems... really broken? Like, so broken I'm unsure how they even think math works?

EDIT: Recently realized that you need more spell points for every CL increase you want the spell to get. CL 10 fireball needs more points than CL 3 fireball, and this applies for ALL CL scaling spells.

[Quertus]

That seems... really broken? Like, so broken I'm unsure how they even think math works?

EDIT: Recently realized that you need more spell points for every CL increase you want the spell to get. CL 10 fireball needs more points than CL 3 fireball, and this applies for ALL CL scaling spells.

It's nice - it's very nice for my one very specific need for this exercise - but it also has its drawbacks. Some downsides are obvious, others are stealthier.

Probably the best part is, in "normal" gameplay, it removes most of the perverse incentives to try to Batman Divination everything.

[Jowgen]

Frankly, the latter two things you mentioned are more for "quirky roleplay" than anything mechanical. I think any magical Terraforming should just be an epic spell or something that actually terraforms a large place.


Terraforming is doable in 3.5, here's a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?504415-Terraforming-planetoids-in-a-self-sufficient-fashion)I did to work out the details.

I would also go the Stargate route to keeping my empire connected, again a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?526091-Efficiently-creating-a-Portal-Network).

For my main character, I'd use an infinite spell slots build, such as the Incantifier x Theurge x Warlock. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?603106-Incantifier-x-Warlock-X-Eldritch-Theurge-for-Infinite-Magic), with the Channel Charge feat on a custom staff for exp/component exp-GP component free spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615178-Crafting-a-very-specific-very-powerful-Staff). Chaos Shuffle for minion optimisation is most handy here.

I'd also us either the Craft skill (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616472-Yet-another-Crafting-Exp-farming-method) or Halaster's sacrifice (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607119-Using-Calling-spells-to-fuel-Sacrifice-Exp-farming) to farm crafting resource Midgard Dwarf skeleton minions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606740-Making-a-minion-to-help-with-crafting-cost-reduction) to use for the purpose of churning out magic items.

With that set-up, I'd establish and expand my empire not via warfare but using economics and religion. Magic items would be the primary export, but any other goods can be produced via free magic just as well. Said magic items would be faith-locked to the people who worship my religion, which can be more or less any ideology I fancy, but the main point is that it demands accepting me as the true rightful ruler of one's homeland. So populations that refuse to worship me as their true God-king will decline over-time by not being able to access the cheap magic item market I control (especially if we're in an arms dealer context), and of course economic pressure I exert on them.

Ultimately, it will be in everyone's best interests to become a part of my Federation of Magical Planets.

[Quertus]

Turns out, I'm told, that the phrase "Harmonious Convergence" is not a novel configuration of words in the history of human existence. :smallredface: