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Quertus
2021-01-31, 07:20 PM
So, I took a look at Dungeons the Dragoning 40,000 Seventh Edition over the weekend, and… I think I'm in love.

So, of course I'm going to write horrible fanfic stories - that's going to happen one way or the other. But should I actually try to get a game going? Is the system actually worth playing, or are there horrible, inescapable flaws that render it unplayable or unfun?

Can anyone give me any reasons why I may want to curb my enthusiasm, and take a good hard look at the game before trying to convince people to actually play it? What does this system do wrong? What can't it do (but looks like / pretends that it can)?

In short, convince me not to try this system!

lightningcat
2021-01-31, 07:26 PM
You might as well wait for the Revised (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609813-Let-s-Read-Dungeons-the-Dragoning-40-000-7th-ed-v1-6&p=24907737#post24907737) version to be finished. Although that entire thread tells you the good and bad of the system.

Lord Raziere
2021-01-31, 07:54 PM
Beware if you play a vampire, you need to spend background dots to have followers and holdings so you can have a supply of blood without draining from 5-25 npcs at every port you arrive at (2-13 if your willing to kill). basically, every vampire that doesn't want to annoy the GM is a rogue trader/pirate captain/privateer with a loyal crew willing to be nonlethally drained, as while its possible to have a non-mobile holding you can't really go back to it after every adventure so its better to have a ship with the blood crew on it to travel around with you

there are many White wolf style morality tracks in the second book. they require communicating with the players about interpreting them so that things don't blow up paladin code style.

I have yet to encounter a GM that allows the Big Book of Brew or similar homebrew.

the magic system is dangerous to you unless you take the Mark of Tzeentch Asset. Then its only dangerous to everyone else in the party. it still requires a lot of specialization and time to make work.

Never be a worshipper of Malal, unless everyone else in the party is to.

there are holes in the setting due to its patchwork nature and it takes some thought to make it all connect and work together.

Telok
2021-01-31, 08:34 PM
Bad editing, snarky tone, self indulgent writing, lunatic imbalances, obviously no playtesting on some stuff, etc., etc.

The magic system has some subtlety in it. If you want "safe" there are a series of options. Chosen of Tzy is an obvious one, warp crap happens to other people. The Atlantean exalt rolls twice on the warp crap tables and chooses one or both effects. The wraithbone bionic heart artifact is another roll twice and choose. The druid classes link not wearing metal armor to getting to roll twice and choose for transmutation and healing spells. You can stack all of that except the Atlantean/Chosen exalt choice, two or three roll twice choices gets pretty safe.

You can also cast "fettered", rolling half normal dice and never worrying about the warp crap tables. You want more dice, but I can build a character that gets 8 dice at first level. 4k4 averages around 23 and is 90% successful at DC 15 first level spells.

So yeah, the lethality of the casting system gets inflated in the telling. It's on par with Traveller character generation, Paranoia briefing rooms, that sort of stuff. It happens, but it's rare and not a big deal (seriously, just die, you can get better).

Quertus
2021-01-31, 08:56 PM
You might as well wait for the Revised (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609813-Let-s-Read-Dungeons-the-Dragoning-40-000-7th-ed-v1-6&p=24907737#post24907737) version to be finished. Although that entire thread tells you the good and bad of the system.

Lol lol lol!

So, I "fat fingered" (?) my phone, accidentally blundered into that forum, *and* accidentally clicked on that thread. And that's how this all started.

I haven't gotten far enough yet in that thread, I guess.

Quertus
2021-01-31, 11:45 PM
Bad editing,

I noticed that. :smallfrown:


lunatic imbalances

It said that up front. So, "just like it said on the tin". I can't fault it for hitting its design goals.


The magic system has some subtlety in it. If you want "safe" there are a series of options. Chosen of Tzy is an obvious one, warp crap happens to other people. The Atlantean exalt rolls twice on the warp crap tables and chooses one or both effects.

Those seemed pretty obvious - I wouldn't call that "subtle".


The wraithbone bionic heart artifact is another roll twice and choose. The druid classes link not wearing metal armor to getting to roll twice and choose for transmutation and healing spells. You can stack all of that except the Atlantean/Chosen exalt choice, two or three roll twice choices gets pretty safe.

Cool. I haven't gotten that far yet, but my eyes were open and searching.


You can also cast "fettered", rolling half normal dice and never worrying about the warp crap tables. You want more dice, but I can build a character that gets 8 dice at first level. 4k4 averages around 23 and is 90% successful at DC 15 first level spells.

So yeah, the lethality of the casting system gets inflated in the telling. It's on par with Traveller character generation, Paranoia briefing rooms, that sort of stuff. It happens, but it's rare and not a big deal (seriously, just die, you can get better).

I've been having trouble figuring out if i can do anything with raises on spells, or whether 4k4 is plenty. Also, on how "half" works whenever rounding isn't specified. (EDIT: also also, how "3k4" would work…)


Beware if you play a vampire, you need to spend background dots to have followers and holdings so you can have a supply of blood without draining from 5-25 npcs at every port you arrive at (2-13 if your willing to kill). basically, every vampire that doesn't want to annoy the GM is a rogue trader/pirate captain/privateer with a loyal crew willing to be nonlethally drained, as while its possible to have a non-mobile holding you can't really go back to it after every adventure so its better to have a ship with the blood crew on it to travel around with you

Do NPCs only have 2 HP?


there are many White wolf style morality tracks in the second book. they require communicating with the players about interpreting them so that things don't blow up paladin code style.

As much as I hate such things… No… as much as I hated those in WoD, I was actually looking for those / not surprised to see them in the 2nd book, and… I don't really mind them.

But, yeah, I can see "misaligned expectations" to be… hmmm… actually, "devotion 1" doesn't sound all that bad to me.


I have yet to encounter a GM that allows the Big Book of Brew or similar homebrew.

I'll be the first. :smallwink: :smallcool:


the magic system is dangerous to you unless you take the Mark of Tzeentch Asset. Then its only dangerous to everyone else in the party. it still requires a lot of specialization and time to make work.

My first thought: entire party is Chosen of Tzeentch. It's not dangerous to *anyone* in the party! :smallcool:


Never be a worshipper of Malal, unless everyone else in the party is to.

You had me at "never be a worshipper".

Go team atheism!


there are holes in the setting due to its patchwork nature and it takes some thought to make it all connect and work together.

So… the setting isn't just "a Malkavian heard about Planescape and decided to turn lol gonzo up to 11 in a blender with everything else", but actually… makes sense, and matters?

Because (pursuant to the "vampires" issue), it sounded to me like you could (for example) just run a "here, be on this random (spooftastic) planet, and play D&D, but with chainswords", and the system wouldn't argue.

Lord Raziere
2021-02-01, 12:11 AM
Do NPCs only have 2 HP?

no, but the way feeding works is:

Blood Dependency - A vampire must
spend 1 Vitae every day in order to remain active.
If they choose not to, or can't, they lapse
into a coma. Vampires gain a Bite weapon
(1k1 R; Melee; Brawling). The vampire may
choose to drain one resource point of blood
from a bitten victim, which gives the victim a
level of fatigue (this replaces the normal level
of fatigue gained from an unarmed attack.) A
vampire may also, of course, feed from a willing
target. A vampire who is unconscious or in
a coma may be fed blood by another. If a vampire
attempts to feed from someone who has
already been knocked unconscious by fatigue,
they may only safely drain 1 Vitae, with the
next feeding killing the victim.

basically if you don't have your own supply of npcs to drain from, you lose vitae every day until you one of the PC's to feed you their blood. since you want to avoid that scenario for multiple reasons, its generally best that you become a captain of a ship with loyal crew, because the alternative is going around knocking random npcs out then draining them while unconscious. if your a moral person who doesn't want them to die, you have to drain 4-25 people depending on how powerful you are. it starts at only 5 people at low levels, but even then you basically assaulting five people and thus potentially running against whatever local authority or law enforcement is around.


As much as I hate such things… No… as much as I hated those in WoD, I was actually looking for those / not surprised to see them in the 2nd book, and… I don't really mind them.

But, yeah, I can see "misaligned expectations" to be… hmmm… actually, "devotion 1" doesn't sound all that bad to me.

just make sure you talk over with your players/GM how you/they interpret the rule of this or that and take notes on that interpretation so that you remember it.


I'll be the first. :smallwink: :smallcool:

okay. hope you can handle Perpetuals never dying or Undaunted turning everything into Undertale/TTGL, because that is what I'd do if I could play big book of brew.


My first thought: entire party is Chosen of Tzeentch. It's not dangerous to *anyone* in the party! :smallcool:

That might work? Does it work? I mean it probably does. but good luck getting five people to want be Chosen of Tzeentch, because thats the only exaltation that gets the asset.


You had me at "never be a worshipper".

Go team atheism!


there is a moral track for that. the real "I'mma not care about moral/god stuff" track is Vectron, supposedly.


So… the setting isn't just "a Malkavian heard about Planescape and decided to turn lol gonzo up to 11 in a blender with everything else", but actually… makes sense, and matters?

Because (pursuant to the "vampires" issue), it sounded to me like you could (for example) just run a "here, be on this random (spooftastic) planet, and play D&D, but with chainswords", and the system wouldn't argue.

1. Technically no it doesn't make sense, its a collage of memery and absurdity but people are still allowed to try

2. yes you can also do that. its probably more accurate thing to what most people use it for, honestly.

Telok
2021-02-01, 03:52 AM
I've been having trouble figuring out if i can do anything with raises on spells, or whether 4k4 is plenty. Also, on how "half" works whenever rounding isn't specified. (EDIT: also also, how "3k4" would work…

...just run a "here, be on this random (spooftastic) planet, and play D&D, but with chainswords", and the system wouldn't argue.

4k4 is plenty for the starter spells, ~90% success (eldarin vamp, casting eldarin racial asset from book2 +1k0, vamp necromancer asset +1k1, 1 rank necromancy +1k0, 5 intelligence +5k5 -> 8k6 necromancy spells as a starter character). You can't keep more dice than you roll, 3k4 -> 3k3. Some spells do stuff with raises, many don't. But the casting roll is also your "save dc" for when people get to roll saves on the spells.

There's a L5R dice probability chart out there that's decent for rough %s. In that thread there are both html and pdf-form dice rollers, % calculators, and a "more effects, less instant death" warp table roller. Linked somewhere in there is the first DtD thread with a partial campaign log and an android app with the rollers. I'v since improved the app, but haven't uploaded it anywhere.

The vamp blood issue really isn't a big deal. You can chomp opponents in combat, there's a necromancy draining touch spell that can fill you, and backgrounds. Lets see, 8 base, vamps get 4 more, capped at 3 during char gen unless you spend starting xp. So right off the bat you can have wealth 3 (upper middle/lower rich), holdings 3 (Bird of Prey type spaceship), followers 3 (about 100 loyal fans), and... allies? contacts? backing? Do backing 3, say you're a captain-at-large in the Elven Imperial Navy or something. You can spend your starter xp and take two flaws (choose the mild ones) to crank all those up to 5s. Wealth 5 (can buy moons or small planets), holdings 5 (kilometer long space battleship), followers 5 (10,000 personal fanatics in the cult of you), and backing 5 (admiral of the 3rd fleet or something). Starting character that is.

Playing D&D with chainswords works. If you left out all tech you could play something very like high gonzo D&D.

Lord Raziere
2021-02-01, 06:19 AM
Telok, a few issues:

you can chomp opponents in combat- if your good at Brawl. that determines your class choice on some level, requiring you to make use of brawl, making it a skill tax. solving vitae issues with magic is like solving your hunger issues by blowing up people with explosives and taking their food, and requires you to have second level magic anyways so your not going to get it at char creation. neither of which solve forcing the GM to come up with food/fights for you, as travel through the warp is not timeless: the shortest travel time is one day, second shortest length is 5-10 days- time enough for a weak vampire to fall into a coma with no one around but fellow passengers on a ship, the next step up is 30-60 days, well over even the maximum amount vitae possible ever. sure you can theoretically zero sum this by theoretically finding a single willing passenger to feed upon once per day but that is tenuous and would likely be another PC, negatively impacting their effectiveness, or is a lot of "Hey Gm is there an npc I can feed on?" done over and over, which is just bothersome to them, and I hope you don't need to spend your vitae suddenly which the GM can force you to do with the very same fights that provide vitae, with no guarantee you'll net gain or break even. and your backgrounds solution is just my solution, but unnecessarily bigger.

Quertus
2021-02-01, 10:32 AM
Ah, the "unconscious" bit. That bites (heh). Maybe stealth + sleeping / passed out victims?

For space travel, I had just assumed going into a coma at the start, waking up once we're PlanetSide. *If* food wasn't otherwise available.

Speaking of, I didn't see any rules that required live blood drains / prevented raiding blood banks. Or draining magical monsters (or fellow party members, who are great at healing). And *technically* I believe it said "most" vampires cannot stomach animal blood. Any of these valid strategies?

But none of this "you actually have to think / plan / have problems if you're playing a vampire" is a reason to not play the game. It's not "if you play a vampire, you're going to take damage, become a frenzied berserker, and kill the party. Oh, and every Exalt is this bad, so don't bother playing".

EDIT: vampires have 7+4, not 8+4. And allies require Holdings *or* Wealth. Right? (Also, why should they require either? Logically, "there are people who know what I am, and are willing to donate to the cause (out of belief, or fear, or whatever)" shouldn't require either.)

-----

So, anyone have any reasons why no one should ever consider playing DtD40k7e - or even why certain types of people shouldn't?

-----

Balance to the table. The game says up front that it isn't balanced, so look to your table's range. If your table can handle Perpetuals and a Sentient Potted Plant, well, you're probably playing at one of my tables already. :smallwink:

-----

5 Chosen of Tzeentch is the natural outcome of several Chosen of Tzeentch and simple Darwinism. :smallwink:

Telok
2021-02-01, 11:32 AM
My bad on the backgrounds, going off memory there. Increase the flaws by 1 and you'll end up with an extra 50xp to kick some skill up from 1 to 2, to get freaking 5s in 4 backgrounds.

Holdings and followers require "upkeep". That translates to having some combination of wealth, backing, or the other (followers/holdings) in an equal amount or else the DM has permission to throw complicationd at you. The Firefly show, with their spaceship almost always needing some sort of repair or patch, is a decent example of a holdings background without support. Honestly wealth and backing are useful enough that it isn't an issue unless the players aren't even reading the descriptions of their own stuff.

Who shouldn't play? People who think occasional multiplication and division (no fractions, no remainders) are too much work. People who think that their character having broken fingers, amputated legs, and melted faces after beating down demons and dragons makes it a terrible game (it all heals/gets replaced if you even half try, plus you legit get to go all Monty Python Black Knight and beat people up with your new leg-club). People who hate the thought of mechanics that support characters getting and living PTSD when they fail fear checks by big chunks. People who are afraid to take risks even with an imaginary character who can literally plot-survive anything and come back stronger 2 to 5 times.

Seriously, the vamp and casting stuff isn't a problem. Our group's "that guy" played a necro caster vamp who loved overcasting (more dice & automatic warp crap rolls) and never too the Tested feat (halve your adders to the warp crap rolls). Over almost a year he got warp death twice (once because we oopsed on how to use the tables early on) and burned hero points both times, ended up with 3 cyber-limbs and an incarnate daemon familiar, threw a legit 100+ necromancy roll to animate a baby space-kaiju, and only get retired when he hit 100 insanity while overchanneling during a fight with 2 Athas sorcerer-kings in the missile bay of their spaceship.

Jakinbandw
2021-02-01, 01:59 PM
So, I took a look at Dungeons the Dragoning 40,000 Seventh Edition over the weekend, and… I think I'm in love.

So, of course I'm going to write horrible fanfic stories - that's going to happen one way or the other. But should I actually try to get a game going? Is the system actually worth playing, or are there horrible, inescapable flaws that render it unplayable or unfun?

Can anyone give me any reasons why I may want to curb my enthusiasm, and take a good hard look at the game before trying to convince people to actually play it? What does this system do wrong? What can't it do (but looks like / pretends that it can)?

In short, convince me not to try this system!

I've played it as a chosen mage/cleric/paladin and had a ton of fun. Be aware that you get new abilities at a fairly ridiculous speed, so find a way to keep track. Also, as a primary spellcaster, I didn't ever have a misshap. There are enough ways to boost your casting roll that its usually free to cast fetters, and a chosen can replace any dice roll with their devotion.

This means that as long as you have some spair resource you can replace exploding dice, or even replace the result of the warp check with your devotion, making it completely safe to cast unfettered.

It was a ton of fun!

Telok
2021-02-01, 05:06 PM
...and a chosen can replace any dice roll with their devotion.

As I said, some bad editing. The chosen "replace any one rolled die" should refer to d10s. Replacing a d100 result with a 6 to 10 number is... probably unintended. Plus there's some fuzzyness to how the additions to the warp rolls should work or stack.

Quertus
2021-02-01, 09:23 PM
Holdings and followers require "upkeep". That translates to having some combination of wealth, backing, or the other (followers/holdings) in an equal amount or else the DM has permission to throw complicationd at you. The Firefly show, with their spaceship almost always needing some sort of repair or patch, is a decent example of a holdings background without support. Honestly wealth and backing are useful enough that it isn't an issue unless the players aren't even reading the descriptions of their own stuff.

Huzzah, a Firefly reference! You win the thread!

Really, I was picturing more like… a bunch of self-employed farmers on an agrarian world, who consider the Vampire a friend / ally / savoir, and would happily take them in (out of the sun) / provide them a meal / etc.

Yes, useless in a ship-based game. Yes, why *wouldn't* a Determinator take most if not all of those backgrounds.

But it was just a hole in the logic of how things could / should work that I wanted to poke at.


Seriously, the vamp and casting stuff isn't a problem. Our group's "that guy" played a necro caster vamp who loved overcasting (more dice & automatic warp crap rolls) and never too the Tested feat (halve your adders to the warp crap rolls). Over almost a year he got warp death twice (once because we oopsed on how to use the tables early on) and burned hero points both times, ended up with 3 cyber-limbs and an incarnate daemon familiar, threw a legit 100+ necromancy roll to animate a baby space-kaiju, and only get retired when he hit 100 insanity while overchanneling during a fight with 2 Athas sorcerer-kings in the missile bay of their spaceship.


I've played it as a chosen mage/cleric/paladin and had a ton of fun.

OK, clearly people have played and enjoyed the game. So this isn't like, "so I tried FATAL over the weekend - can anyone direct me to a portal to Cthulhu? I'd appreciate some happy madness to brain bleach this out of my head."

So, reasons it might not match specific groups:


Who shouldn't play? People who think occasional multiplication and division (no fractions, no remainders) are too much work. People who think that their character having broken fingers, amputated legs, and melted faces after beating down demons and dragons makes it a terrible game (it all heals/gets replaced if you even half try, plus you legit get to go all Monty Python Black Knight and beat people up with your new leg-club). People who hate the thought of mechanics that support characters getting and living PTSD when they fail fear checks by big chunks. People who are afraid to take risks even with an imaginary character who can literally plot-survive anything and come back stronger 2 to 5 times.

Good to know. That may rule out one player that I was considering.

Heck, had the division seemed dumb, like "division for division's sake", it would have turned *me* off. But the math… felt right. "The math just works" :smallwink: :smallamused:


Be aware that you get new abilities at a fairly ridiculous speed, so find a way to keep track.

Seemed that way. 500 XP / session sounded like "update several things per session" would be the norm - even before looting, shopping, limb loss, insanity… mutations? Are there mutations?


or even replace the result of the warp check with your devotion,

Is that really RAW? It certainly didn't feel RAI.

Jakinbandw
2021-02-01, 11:31 PM
Seemed that way. 500 XP / session sounded like "update several things per session" would be the norm - even before looting, shopping, limb loss, insanity… mutations? Are there mutations?

Is that really RAW? It certainly didn't feel RAI.


The Chosen may spend a Favor to replace any one rolled die with his Devotion (if his devotion is10, the die does not explode). He may not use this power on Alignment Checks.

So the fact that it specifically calls out it not working on alignment checks suggests it's supposed to work on more than just attack checks and skill checks. Basically, by stating there is only one place where it can't be used it suggests it can be used anywhere else. That said, it wouldn't have changed the game that much if it didn't. I primarily used it to overcast mage armor at night, so I would be playing with a bit less armor during the last session I played.

Honestly, my build didn't have me looting too much. I started with a bunch of artifacts and was just having fun with that. But even then, it can be a bit tricky keeping up with all your new powers. Still fun to be able to teleport over to a foe, hit them in the face with my mace, smite them, and then parry a snipers attack back, destroying their weapon.

(Blink+energy grasp spell combo using a wrathbone mace, and a shield with a windhands gemstone and the powerfield quality).

I'm so sad the game died.

Telok
2021-02-02, 02:22 AM
Yeah, iffy editing and intent going on. One of the things I'm doing with my rewrite is annotating with bunches of notes about how things worked out and what might happen if the DM rules a different way. There's at least three ways to deal with the confluence of overcasting, keeping 10s, and rolling for warp crap. That's going to either be a big honking note or it's own page in an 'options & best practices' appendix. Still not sure if I'll put the dice rollers before the appendices or at the absolute end.

Quertus
2021-02-02, 08:34 AM
Yeah, iffy editing and intent going on. One of the things I'm doing with my rewrite is annotating with bunches of notes about how things worked out and what might happen if the DM rules a different way. There's at least three ways to deal with the confluence of overcasting, keeping 10s, and rolling for warp crap. That's going to either be a big honking note or it's own page in an 'options & best practices' appendix. Still not sure if I'll put the dice rollers before the appendices or at the absolute end.

Just don't nerf the "all Chosen of Tzeentch" party in your rewrite :smallamused:

Telok
2021-02-02, 11:30 AM
Just don't nerf the "all Chosen of Tzeentch" party in your rewrite :smallamused:

I think the biggest nerfs are making Blink a 2nd level spell and sticking an easy power test on the free action recall in the Call Item spell. Sword schools get straight upgrades and some free style points at purchase. Gun katas get a sidegrade into being ranged mirrors of the sword schools... Ok, there's a nerf in there, the infinite ammo perk got moved from level 1 to level 3 or 4 or something.

Pretty much everything else is clarity, options, and boosts. I think that I spent more time working out mind control & illusion guidelines, researching 1960s military studies on vision, and working out math for the vehicle & spaceship weapon rebalance spreadsheets, than I did doing actual rewriting of abilities & rules. Gonna be lots of notes like "if you rule like this then that happens, rule the other way and another thing happens" and "as an optional rule..."

Jakinbandw
2021-02-02, 06:30 PM
I think the biggest nerfs are making Blink a 2nd level spell and sticking an easy power test on the free action recall in the Call Item spell. Sword schools get straight upgrades and some free style points at purchase. Gun katas get a sidegrade into being ranged mirrors of the sword schools... Ok, there's a nerf in there, the infinite ammo perk got moved from level 1 to level 3 or 4 or something.

Pretty much everything else is clarity, options, and boosts. I think that I spent more time working out mind control & illusion guidelines, researching 1960s military studies on vision, and working out math for the vehicle & spaceship weapon rebalance spreadsheets, than I did doing actual rewriting of abilities & rules. Gonna be lots of notes like "if you rule like this then that happens, rule the other way and another thing happens" and "as an optional rule..."

So your not planning to nerf the (near) infinite damage combo in gun katas?

Telok
2021-02-02, 08:05 PM
So your not planning to nerf the (near) infinite damage combo in gun katas?

Not familiar with that one. I ran the game at about half or 1/3rd the "book rate" xp gain to keep things a bit more sane and the high op players started branching out at 3rd level instead of going higher (they ran away a lot when actually threatened, spent much time abusing non-space civilizations and such).

The changes are over in the thread in the other games forum. Mostly it's bringing the gun kata into line with the sword schools after I went through ripping out trash and buffing some stuff. The concept was to use Evocation as a baseline, after buffing the trash spells in there, and bring the other magics high end effects into line with Meteor Storm levels of power. Then trying to make the sword schools competitive with evocation as a fighty option. There's only one potential instakill that I put in... that I remember off the top of my head.