"sword and board" barbarian 2/bard 2 + ?? [RESOLVED]

[Arkhios]

Hi,

Edit: This isn't a protest against restricted options. Our group has agreed to these terms from the beginning. This is a request for potential remedy going forward, without having to resort to bending of the rules.

Due to some misunderstandings with another player's wants during session 0, I ended up making a character that I'm somewhat unhappy about right now, despite having the overall best stat array in our group. I'm fairly certain we cannot get a retrain (full nor otherwise), as we are not allowed to use the book where those rules are in. In short, we are using the "bare-bones core" only. Assume that all I have access to is Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual completely, and only parts from Expanded Psionics Handbook (only non-manifester character options, such as feats and spells. And soulknife, but who would want to play that mess anyway), and Deities & Demigods (feats and spells only).

My character is a Human Barbarian 2/Bard 2, with feats Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash and Quick Draw. His statistics are Str 14, Dex 18 (after first bump), Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 11.

My initial plan with this character build was to aim for Dragon Disciple, but now I'm not so sure about it, as it does hurt my Base Attack Bonus. I have been suggested to get Weapon Finesse as soon as possible, forget dragon disciple, and leave barbarian levels at 2, to shift my focus on dexterity build instead. However, to get the "requisite" feat a.s.a.p. I'd basically have to take a fighter level at 5th, meaning I'd risk experience penalty if I'm not careful with my multiclass spread. (I do understand that right now there's nothing to worry about). On the other hand, the other side of my character "concept" relies on being a slightly unexpected skill monkey, which any amount of fighter levels would hit rather hard.

Frankly put, I'm torn. I can see the benefits of going Dexterity focused, as of now I'm struggling to hit anything in melee, unless I'm raging, and I can do that only once per day. Of course, Inspire Courage helps a little. I suppose it's partly due to the down-sides of two-weapon fighting at lower levels. At times I've been considering to simply start throwing stuff, like daggers and throwing axes. Or Javelins, which however are considered one-handed weapons so the penalty from two-weapon fighting would be rather steep. Which leads me to a potential plan:

Would it be worth it to become a switch-hitter with these stats, taking Weapon Finesse for melee and start taking ranged combat feats (either with fighter or ranger levels). Note: I'm not unhappy with the feats I've chosen. I'm merely curious which way to go would be most beneficial from here on out.

If I went with fighter I could eventually get all relevant feats for both two-weapon fighting and archery (improved and greater two-weapon fighting, point-blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot, greater manyshot and improved precise shot).

Then again, getting more levels in bard would be nice too, for more uses of bardic music for starters, and quite a bit more skill points, but also potentially getting Inspire Courage +2 at later levels. I realize that Extra Music feat is also an option, but that would be one feat more with very little feats to spare.

Any help would be appreciated. But please, try not to poke around the edges of what I have or don't have access to!

FWIW, and for those who might care (I doubt there are many) I finally settled on Barbarian 3/Bard 2, going fully into Dragon Disciple, with 4th level in barbarian at some point for another rage per day (I find that more rage is better for my ultimate goals; I'm a warrior first, a support only after then).

Mainly because I realized I'm never going to be a good spellcaster on my own right, even if I took more levels in bard. My charisma is just not that great, only 11, and I'd rather not rely on the chance of maybe getting a charisma boosting item, especially since our sorcerer would benefit more from it and thus has priority over me. At least I can add Dragon Disciple's extra spell slots to 1st level spells, and at least cha 11 is enough to be able to cast them.

For feats I have decided to drop the Harmonic Spell entirely. Instead, at 6th level I'll be taking Jack of All Trades (because we have a sore need of wider breadth of knowledge and even if I had more bard, my skill points are spread thin as is. Difference of 1 rank and no ranks is negligible, if I can use every skill untrained anyway).
I'll be taking Improved Two-Weapon at the first opportunity once I have the requisite BAB, which means at 9th level, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 15th level.

At 12th level, I'll take Reckless Offense. By then, I have a pretty good AC and more hit points than our druid will ever have (even with their CON 18), so I think can afford to lower my AC by 4 at some occasions (possibly at least when I'm not raging). I'm aiming to increase my strength score to 24 eventually, so with two-weapon fighting and reckless offense, my baseline attack modifiers start at +19, BEFORE I add any strength boosting items, rage, or magical weapons. That's pretty impressive in my opinion, especially because my BAB is +12 (as high as it would be for an equal level bard or rogue); as it stands, I'm expecting to reach at least 16th level in this campaign.

[Eldan]

The problem I see is that different parts of your build kind of work against each other. Dragon Disciple and Barbarian can work, as can Barbarian and Bard. But Barbarians aren't really made for dexterity builds, they boost strength. So does the Dragon Disciple.

So, your two build directions that I see are:

a) to focus on strength and go Barbarian/Dragon Disciple. For bonus points, ask your DM to let you switch some feats around. If he agrees, switch Two-Weapon Fighting for Power Attack and get a two-handed weapon to really use you strength. It's a sad reality of the system that Two Weapon Fighting just... isn't very good outside some highly specific builds.

b) Focus on dexterity. In that case, Dragon Disciple doesn't do much for you, sadly. In that case, get Weapon Finesse as soon as possible. Can you perhaps convince your DM to use material that is free on the web? If so, consider asking if you can take the Ferocity variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), which is a barbarian who boosts dexterity instead of constitution. It's also been later published in the book Complete Scoundrel.

[H_H_F_F]

Your first priority should be asking your DM to let you swap some feats and ability scores. Don't ask to change classes if the DM would be opposed to that, but explain that you planned your character wrong due to a misunderstanding, and that this hampers your enjoyment of the game. Explain that you're not trying to pull off an optimizing trick, nor are you planning on rebuilding your character ta every turn. This is a one time thing, to make up for a misunderstanding.

If you can swap your Str and Dex score, and TWF and ISB for power attack and combat expertise (for improved trip as your next feat) you're actually doing fine. You could continue on with Barbarian or ranger levels, take a 4 level dragon disciple sidetrack, and maybe go for horizon walker from there. Lots of skills beside the disciple dip, lot's of damage and to-hit with high Str and power attack with a 2 handed weapon. Quick draw could also allow you to switch it up between sword and board and a two handed weapon very easily.

If your DM is insisting you can't change anything I'd say yes, try and salvage the build with a 2 level fighter dip and then perhaps straight ranger, going for a switch hitter (archery feats through ranger). Won't very fun for a little while, and you'd have 4 dead levels on a chassis that's pretty weak as-is, but you can make it work - and ranger will salvage your skill monkey approach.

Good luck!

[Arkhios]

The problem I see is that different parts of your build kind of work against each other. Dragon Disciple and Barbarian can work, as can Barbarian and Bard. But Barbarians aren't really made for dexterity builds, they boost strength. So does the Dragon Disciple.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Barbarian is intended to have high strength. But on the other hand, the scarcity of available uses for Rage seems rather strange, and warrants the question whether I could use rage mostly as a damage boost occasionally, while keeping dexterity as the primary means of hitting things. Dragon Disciple would increase strength, but overall it would be only a damage boost for a dex focused build, and a small bonus to AC. Breath Weapon and Natural Weapons would most likely go to waste, however.


a) to focus on strength and go Barbarian/Dragon Disciple. For bonus points, ask your DM to let you switch some feats around. If he agrees, switch Two-Weapon Fighting for Power Attack and get a two-handed weapon to really use you strength. It's a sad reality of the system that Two Weapon Fighting just... isn't very good outside some highly specific builds.
Potentially worth a shot to ask, at least. Probably not allowed though.


b) Focus on dexterity. In that case, Dragon Disciple doesn't do much for you, sadly. In that case, get Weapon Finesse as soon as possible. Can you perhaps convince your DM to use material that is free on the web? If so, consider asking if you can take the Ferocity variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), which is a barbarian who boosts dexterity instead of constitution. It's also been later published in the book Complete Scoundrel.
IIRC, there was a very similar alternate class feature in Unearthed Arcana (also found in SRD), Whirling Frenzy, but we weren't allowed to use those ACF's so I doubt I could use that one either.

Can you see any potential compromise in there? Like, would it be that bad if I only used strength (and occasional boost from rage) for damage, while relying on Dexterity to hitting things?

[Eldan]

Depends entirely on what the power level of your group is. The thing with D&D is that power can vary enormously between groups. I've been in groups where it was basically "Play a full spellcaster or you're useless. Also, take only hte best feats, we have an incantatrix and a dweomerkeeper already" and groups where "two weapon fighting barbarian" was a perfectly viable concept.

Apart from not hitting enough, do you feel your character is too weak? Not hitting enough is fixed by taking weapon finesse and more base attack.

[Arkhios]

Depends entirely on what the power level of your group is. The thing with D&D is that power can vary enormously between groups. I've been in groups where it was basically "Play a full spellcaster or you're useless. Also, take only hte best feats, we have an incantatrix and a dweomerkeeper already" and groups where "two weapon fighting barbarian" was a perfectly viable concept.

Apart from not hitting enough, do you feel your character is too weak? Not hitting enough is fixed by taking weapon finesse and more base attack.

From Optimization point of view, I'm the one in our group most inclined to do planning ahead, though I do try to avoid excess Min/Max Optimization.
As for the in-game power level, the other members of our group are:

Pure Gnome Druid with a Riding Dog as our primary "tank(s)"
Pure Human Sorcerer with Focus on Enchantment spells
Mix'n'match Dwarf Ranger/Rogue/"To-Be" Liberator (a PRC)

The Dwarf's player is the one I had the misunderstanding with. I thought they definitely wanted to play a ranger so I stepped aside to give them that chance, as I prefer to let the other players in our group make the first choice and not to step on their turf so to speak. At least not for the first few levels. Originally my plan was to make a Ranger instead of a Barbarian. But regardless of the class I wanted to play, I definitely wanted to play a two-weapon fighting sword and board -type character, and that's the part of the character concept I'd prefer to keep unchanged. If the player in question agrees and our DM lets us "trade" some choices we've made, and thus let's us both change our characters a bit, I would very much prefer taking levels in ranger over barbarian.

Anyway, apart from being a tad ineffective on the offense, my character's defenses are quite good, thanks to high dexterity, reasonably good saves, and having a +1 light shield (with so far masterwork spikes) as well as a +1 mithral chainmail (from very recent loot). And his hit points are alright.

So, overall, I don't think the whole character is weak, just a part of it. Although, I'd argue the most important part.

[Korahir]

Some information that would be useful: Alignment and skill points so far. What roles do the other party members fulfill or aspire to fulfill (face, scout, tank, damage dealer, etc.)?


My suggestions: since you are in deep peril of just falling off hard and becoming completely irrelevant next to a druid and sorcerer, I'd suggest you look at prestige class options. I am not familiar with a prestige class named liberator (holy liberator?), so it is hard to account fpr the third member. I think your best bet is to fill the niches noone else is filling in your team.

Dragon disciple: Still an option you can go as you yourself thought of. Honestly I can see this working with weapon finesse and natural weapons.

Assassin. Requires you to be evil but seems to me to be the best fitting your attributes and chosen feats since all you need are some skill points. It fills a role druid and sorcerer usually don't aspire (skill monkey, stealth, scout). Might be too close to the rogue/ranger. Has casting depending on Intelligence which you have 14, works well with Dexterity builds and flanking seems doable with a rogue and anial companion.

Arcane Archer: very unusual way of entering but you could go Fighter 2/Barb 3/Bard2 and then enter Arcane Archer. Use quick draw and two weapon fighting to throw weapons and be a kind of Switch Hitter. So you'd mostly rely on hitting with your arrows until the enemies are too close. Then you drop your bow quick draw your shield and thrown weapons and work with your lesser range until the enemies are in melee range where you just hope to stall long enough for your friends to finish them off. Shield bash might be usefull there.

Horizon Walker: at the cost of a feat (Endurance) and skill points in geography you end up with a solid chassis (Full BAB, 4+ Int skills, d8 hit dice) and some okayish class features (shifting planar is the standout).

[Arkhios]

Some information that would be useful: Alignment and skill points so far. What roles do the other party members fulfill or aspire to fulfill (face, scout, tank, damage dealer, etc.)?
My character is Neutral or Chaotic Good (haven't really decided yet), as it has been irrelevant so far. Evil is out of question, though.
Current Ranks in skills I have: Appraise 1, Bluff 1, Decipher Script 5, K(Arcana) 5, K(History) 5, Per(Sing) 3, Pro(Sailor) 1, Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft* 7, Use Magic Device 7
*I have a campaign specific way of making Spellcraft a class skill for all classes I have, and use it to identify magic items (no retries, though).


My suggestions: since you are in deep peril of just falling off hard and becoming completely irrelevant next to a druid and sorcerer, I'd suggest you look at prestige class options. I am not familiar with a prestige class named liberator (holy liberator?), so it is hard to account fpr the third member. I think your best bet is to fill the niches noone else is filling in your team.
Liberator is a prestige class from Pathfinder Chronicles / Second Darkness adventure path. Basically the prestige class' gimmick is to be a lock-breaker, with Open Locks and/or Sundering. The ranger/rogue has been acting as our scout so far.


Dragon disciple: Still an option you can go as you yourself thought of. Honestly I can see this working with weapon finesse and natural weapons.
Agreed.


Assassin. Requires you to be evil but seems to me to be the best fitting your attributes and chosen feats since all you need are some skill points. It fills a role druid and sorcerer usually don't aspire (skill monkey, stealth, scout). Might be too close to the rogue/ranger. Has casting depending on Intelligence which you have 14, works well with Dexterity builds and flanking seems doable with a rogue and anial companion.
Since Evil alignment is out of question, Assassin won't do.


Arcane Archer: very unusual way of entering but you could go Fighter 2/Barb 3/Bard2 and then enter Arcane Archer. Use quick draw and two weapon fighting to throw weapons and be a kind of Switch Hitter. So you'd mostly rely on hitting with your arrows until the enemies are too close. Then you drop your bow quick draw your shield and thrown weapons and work with your lesser range until the enemies are in melee range where you just hope to stall long enough for your friends to finish them off. Shield bash might be usefull there.
There's one but: Arcane Archer requires to be either elf or half-elf. I'm human.


Horizon Walker: at the cost of a feat (Endurance) and skill points in geography you end up with a solid chassis (Full BAB, 4+ Int skills, d8 hit dice) and some okayish class features (shifting planar is the standout).
I hadn't considered Horizon Walker. This might be an option worth exploring further.

[H_H_F_F]

I still think that you could do something along what I suggested even on a sword and board base. It's obviously not as powerful as THF (especially without shield charge/ shield slam from CW), but it's fine. Quickdraw especially allows for some flexibility in that regard. If TWF is non negotiable, you'll need ranger to do it with high Str, so maybe go for my second suggestion.



I hadn't considered Horizon Walker. This might be an option worth exploring further.

I did suggest Horizon Walker. Just saying :smalltongue:

[Arkhios]

I still think that you could do something along what I suggested even on a sword and board base. It's obviously not as powerful as THF (especially without shield charge/ shield slam from CW), but it's fine. Quickdraw especially allows for some flexibility in that regard. If TWF is non negotiable, you'll need ranger to do it with high Str, so maybe go for my second suggestion.
I'm honestly not sure if stat swap is negotiable. And to be entirely honest, I don't think that low dex is a very good idea on a ranger who are stuck with using light armor if they wish to keep benefiting from their Combat Style. But I guess it could be doable with a Dex Boosting item.



I did suggest Horizon Walker. Just saying :smalltongue:
You did. Sorry, it must've slipped past my attention for some reason.

[Korahir]

My character is Neutral or Chaotic Good (haven't really decided yet), as it has been irrelevant so far. Evil is out of question, though.
Current Ranks in skills I have: Appraise 1, Bluff 1, Decipher Script 5, K(Arcana) 5, K(History) 5, Per(Sing) 3, Pro(Sailor) 1, Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft* 7, Use Magic Device 7
*I have a campaign specific way of making Spellcraft a class skill for all classes I have, and use it to identify magic items (no retries, though).


[...]

There's one but: Arcane Archer requires to be either elf or half-elf. I'm human.


I hadn't considered Horizon Walker. This might be an option worth exploring further.

Sorry did overlook the Human part. I think I'd personally would go with Horizon Walker. Feats I would use: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). I'd turn myself into a "board and wand combatant". Probably increase ChA at 8 and then continue increasing Dex. It is far from optimal but may be an interesting character.

[Arkhios]

Sorry did overlook the Human part. I think I'd personally would go with Horizon Walker. Feats I would use: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). I'd turn myself into a "board and wand combatant". Probably increase ChA at 8 and then continue increasing Dex. It is far from optimal but may be an interesting character.

How would that work? As far as I know, activating a wand is always a Standard Action (at least by default; I think there might be a feat or some other option in Eberron books, which I can't use,) so I couldn't use a wand and attack with a shield simultaneously. Unless I misunderstood your suggestion altogether. :smalltongue:

[A.A.King]

I think a big question is, how long do you think this campaign is going to go on for?

I don't think Weapon Finesse would be a good feat for you to take. Right now that only counts for a +2 to ATK when you're not raging (as during rage your STR will equal your DEX score). If you take 2 more levels of Barbarian than you'd end up with an extra rage. How often do you have more than 2 encounters per day?

The thing about taking more Bard levels is that it will take another 6 levels before you get an increase in your Inspire Courage boost. Inspire Courage also isn't necessarily all that impressive in an core-only game. It appears you don't have access to any of the options that would increase the effectiveness of inspire courage so even after 6 more bard levels it would still only be an +2.

The other thing to note of course is also that you can't cast bard spells during combat, so the other good thing about bard doesn't really apply to you. A bard who uses a shield is susceptible to arcane spell failure.

Personally, given your intentions and limitations, I would stick to a STR based route.

[Arkhios]

I think a big question is, how long do you think this campaign is going to go on for?

I don't think Weapon Finesse would be a good feat for you to take. Right now that only counts for a +2 to ATK when you're not raging (as during rage your STR will equal your DEX score). If you take 2 more levels of Barbarian than you'd end up with an extra rage. How often do you have more than 2 encounters per day?

The thing about taking more Bard levels is that it will take another 6 levels before you get an increase in your Inspire Courage boost. Inspire Courage also isn't necessarily all that impressive in an core-only game. It appears you don't have access to any of the options that would increase the effectiveness of inspire courage so even after 6 more bard levels it would still only be an +2.

The other thing to note of course is also that you can't cast bard spells during combat, so the other good thing about bard doesn't really apply to you. A bard who uses a shield is susceptible to arcane spell failure.

Personally, given your intentions and limitations, I would stick to a STR based route.

I know the campaign is going on until the 15th-16th level hoods.

Thank you for the voice of reason! :smalltongue:

I mean, I'm not jesting. Changing my path of approach to finesse is tempting but will it remain so after a few levels is something I don't know.

[H_H_F_F]

I know the campaign is going on until the 15th-16th level hoods.

I really think you want to ask your DM to swpa to a Str build. Optimised or not, the casters are going to make you look like a joke if you go for TWF without sources for extra damage. Power attack, 4 Str from a dragon disciple dip, and some utilities... That could work.

I'm not at all averse to playing mechanically weak characters, but this seems like to much.

[Arkhios]

I really think you want to ask your DM to swpa to a Str build. Optimised or not, the casters are going to make you look like a joke if you go for TWF without sources for extra damage. Power attack, 4 Str from a dragon disciple dip, and some utilities... That could work.

I'm not at all averse to playing mechanically weak characters, but this seems like to much.

Update:
Nope. Can't swap. The choices I made are final. Got to work with that somehow.

4 levels in Dragon Disciple would bring my Str equal to Dex, as well as give me a +2 bonus to natural armor, so might as well keep to that plan, but take those levels as soon as possible. In fact, might as well take only those 4 levels, as I'm still thinking about trying to fit in some fighter or ranger levels for archery feats (most of which would work well even with thrown weapons).

[AnimeTheCat]

Update:
Nope. Can't swap. The choices I made are final. Got to work with that somehow.

4 levels in Dragon Disciple would bring my Str equal to Dex, as well as give me a +2 bonus to natural armor, so might as well keep to that plan, but take those levels as soon as possible. In fact, might as well take only those 4 levels, as I'm still thinking about trying to fit in some fighter or ranger levels for archery feats (most of which would work well even with thrown weapons).

What role are you trying to fill and what roles are you trying to avoid?

[Darg]

Use a spiked heavy shield two handed with spiked armor as your off-hand. Improved shield bash lets you keep your shield AC. Quick Draw let's you fire from range and switch to melee. It also allows you to carry thrown weapons and make ranged attacks when necessary.

I'd personally take 1 level of fighter and get power attack. Level 6 you can take DD and another feat of your choice. Level 7 you get up to 5 attacks, or 4 if you want the extra hit chance. At 9 you can get multiattack and you would also have +4 to strength from DD. At 15 you can pick up fly-by attack.

[Arkhios]

What role are you trying to fill and what roles are you trying to avoid?

I honestly don't know! :smallbiggrin:

I want to provide "weapons DPR" in combat and skill support out of combat. I really wouldn't mind if I was able to adapt to the situation as needed.

Our sorcerer is the face, kind of. However, his expertise is in deceit, with Bluff and Enchantments, so I really don't need Bluff that much myself; 5 ranks at most for the obvious synergies. Currently we don't have anyone actually capable of Diplomacy other than the sorcerer with his Charisma only, so I guess I could maximize Diplomacy with every bit of synergy I'm able to get and be "facier" face than the pretty-boy sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

On the other hand, I've never played a character that was any good with Intimidate, so that could be an option as well. After all, Bluff does give synergy to that too.

The sorcerer is likely to take Leadership and take a wizard we've met as his cohort, who in turn is likely to handle a whole plethora of knowledge skills, so I won't need them that much either. Spellcraft and UMD I want to keep maxed because of reasons.

Other than that, I don't know what "role" I'm trying to fill.

[H_H_F_F]

Well, I wouldn't personally make that call, but they're the DM.

If you can't change your abilities around, and you don't want to go rogue or anything else that would be helpful for dex fighting, you could go for kind of a hybrid build; it's not optimal by any means, but it sounds close to what you're going for.

1 more barbarian level and into Dragon Disciple. DD will help equalise your Str and Dex. Use combat reflexes to utilise your high Dex. Use it to trip with improved trip, or take stand still - it's not as good, but it would save you a feat and would be easier to pull off. Uss your dex to establish a good are of control, and position yourself accordingly.

You could honestly go with DD all the way. If you're not going to do 2 handed power attacks, BaB is slightly less important, and you're going to want to be able to do some cool tricks. It would mean giving up on your skill monkey job though. If you want to conserve that, stay for 4 levels only.

You mentioned the liberator PRC. Do you have access to any other PRCs not in the DMG?

[AnimeTheCat]

I honestly don't know! :smallbiggrin:

I want to provide "weapons DPR" in combat and skill support out of combat. I really wouldn't mind if I was able to adapt to the situation as needed.

Our sorcerer is the face, kind of. However, his expertise is in deceit, with Bluff and Enchantments, so I really don't need Bluff that much myself; 5 ranks at most for the obvious synergies. Currently we don't have anyone actually capable of Diplomacy other than the sorcerer with his Charisma only, so I guess I could maximize Diplomacy with every bit of synergy I'm able to get and be "facier" face than the pretty-boy sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

On the other hand, I've never played a character that was any good with Intimidate, so that could be an option as well. After all, Bluff does give synergy to that too.

The sorcerer is likely to take Leadership and take a wizard we've met as his cohort, who in turn is likely to handle a whole plethora of knowledge skills, so I won't need them that much either. Spellcraft and UMD I want to keep maxed because of reasons.

Other than that, I don't know what "role" I'm trying to fill.

well... There's no reason not to take another level of bard, pick up another level 1 and 0 spell known and your first level 1 spell per day, plus your skill points will like you for it. You get +1 BAB, so you're not losing there. You could do worse for weapons DPR and out of combat skills, and honestly you probably couldn't do much better other than Ranger. Ranger is viable as well, especially if you're fighting a certain enemy time and time again. Gets you BAB, Fort/Reflex, and Favored Enemy, but you're not likely to make much use out of Wild Empathy and Track, but you may and it may be cool.

You could also do worse than simply proceeding in Barbarian. While it isn't allowed by your DM, the Berserk prestige class is in Deities and Demigods, so that might be worth an ask. And just to keep things the same otherwise, get weapon finesse for the times you're not raging and just keep going down the two weapon fighting sword and shield build. It's not great, sure, but it's what you've got.

Also, there's always option Z. Get your character killed and build what you want and give the middle finger to the DM for being so insanely inflexible. Can't stop you when you're building from scratch.

[Brackenlord]

As far as BAB is concerned you can take the next 2 leves of Bard, you won't be able to cast a 2nd level spell (I recommend Alter Self) until you get another point of Charisma or a stat increasing item but you'll keep up with skills and hitting.

If you gor for Finesse Two-Weapon Fighting you may find your attacks hitting but being closer to wet noodles. It's better to focus your buffs and magic items on just Str and be glad for the other benefits of your +4 Dex (initiative, reflex save, dodge AC).

Instead of Sword & Board, get some Armor Spikes and keep bashing skulls with your shield 2H, 1.5x Str, and off-hand spikes.

[Piggy Knowles]

So just to be sure, your build looks something like this, yes?

1 Bard1- Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw
2 Bard2-
3 Barbarian1- Improved Shield Bash
4 Barbarian2-

(Obviously those levels might be out of order, doesn't really change anything except for skills vs HP.)

I'd probably finish out with what others have already recommended, namely 4 levels of Dragon Disciple and a splash of Horizon Walker to keep the BAB high, plus some Fighter sprinkled in for the feats. So your next levels would look something like this:

5 Fighter1- Combat Expertise
6 Dragon Disciple1- Improved Trip
7 Dragon Disciple2-
8 Dragon Disciple3-
9 Dragon Disciple4- Knock-Down
10 Fighter2- Combat Reflexes
11 Bard3-
12 Barbarian3- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13 Fighter3-
14 Fighter4- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Barbarian4- Endurance
16 Horizon Walker1-
17 Bard4-
18 Horizon Walker2- Reckless Offense/Stand Still
19 Horizon Walker3-
20 Horizon Walker4-

(Knock-Down is from Deities and Demigods, Reckless Offense and Stand Still are both in Expanded Psionics Handbook and does not require psionics.)

You end with +18 BAB, trip/knockdown and the full TWF line, raging 2/day plus immunity to fatigue via Horizon Walker, and the ability to leverage your decent Dex via Combat Reflexes. Making trips should help with your inability to hit, since it's a touch attack to initiate a trip (and you have whip proficiency too!), and then your follow-up attack via Improved Trip will be at a +4 because of prone. Should avoid any multiclass XP penalties, too.

[H_H_F_F]

So just to be sure, your build looks something like this, yes?

1 Bard1- Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw
2 Bard2-
3 Barbarian1- Improved Shield Bash
4 Barbarian2-

(Obviously those levels might be out of order, doesn't really change anything except for skills vs HP.)

I'd probably finish out with what others have already recommended, namely 4 levels of Dragon Disciple and a splash of Horizon Walker to keep the BAB high, plus some Fighter sprinkled in for the feats. So your next levels would look something like this:

5 Fighter1- Combat Expertise
6 Dragon Disciple1- Improved Trip
7 Dragon Disciple2-
8 Dragon Disciple3-
9 Dragon Disciple4- Knock-Down
10 Fighter2- Combat Reflexes
11 Bard3-
12 Barbarian3- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13 Fighter3-
14 Fighter4- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Barbarian4- Endurance
16 Horizon Walker1-
17 Bard4-
18 Horizon Walker2- Reckless Offense/Stand Still
19 Horizon Walker3-
20 Horizon Walker4-

(Knock-Down is from Deities and Demigods, Reckless Offense and Stand Still are both in Expanded Psionics Handbook and does not require psionics.)

You end with +18 BAB, trip/knockdown and the full TWF line, raging 2/day plus immunity to fatigue via Horizon Walker, and the ability to leverage your decent Dex via Combat Reflexes. Making trips should help with your inability to hit, since it's a touch attack to initiate a trip (and you have whip proficiency too!), and then your follow-up attack via Improved Trip will be at a +4 because of prone. Should avoid any multiclass XP penalties, too.

Seems like a good build - though with 11 Cha, I doubt going to Bard 4 is worth it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Seems like a good build - though with 11 Cha, I doubt going to Bard 4 is worth it.

with as spaced out as they are, I suspect it's less for spells and more to disperse some skill points here and there without losing anything major. By the fourth bard level, a Charisma item may have been acquired so that may not be an issue. Though I'm not the person you responded to so I could be wrong.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yes, going to bard 4 vs horizon walker 5 is more a question of getting 2 more skill points off a better list and an extra song per day, rather than the spells, but of course if you nab a Cha-boosting item then having a couple of spells certainly won't go amiss. Really the regular horizon walker masteries aren't that great except for desert, which you nab at your first level. You could honestly skip horizon walker altogether on this build if it weren't for multiclass XP penalties.

[Arkhios]

I'll dig in deeper later today (just woke up and I'm prepping for work), but spells aren't the primary concern for me in bard. Skills and Bardic Music (mainly Inspire Courage and potentially Inspire Competence) are; after all, Bardic Music depends more on the Bard levels for daily uses, and ranks in Perform more than Charisma for their potency. I plan to even out all odd stats remaining (con and cha) but I'm uncertain in which order to do so.

Fortunately, prestige classes don't count towards multiclassing penalties, and the base class with the most levels gets to be ignored entirely as well (thanks to being a human). So, as long as the other base classes are within 1 level from each other, I should be fine. From optimization point of view, I feel that 3 levels in a class is a sweet spot after which branching out to another class hurts less in terms of base save progression. Another is 6th level, when you increase every bonuses, including BAB.

Edit:
I see a few people suggesting bashing with a shield two-handed. RAW it's not strictly speaking possible (that is, you can of course wield a shield in two hands, you just don't get any benefit from it), even with a Heavy Shield, because RAW Shield Bash is ALWAYS an off-hand weapon. Regardless of how many hands I use, it will still apply only ½-strength to damage rolls. Even if you make a single attack on your turn. Essentially, a shield is only ever useful as an off-hand weapon combined with TWF. At other times, I wouldn't bother, unless there is some unexpected benefit for doing so.

---

I started with Barbarian and took the levels evenly from there. 6 more hit points compared to (only) 8 skill points less at 1st level was pretty obvious choice for me, given that my first feats are melee-oriented, and I'd be in the up-close-and-personal area with enemies.

I've redesigned my build a dozen times already, but right now, prior to making this thread, I was looking at following build (I dare not plan beyond 16th level because it's unlikely we'll get that far). I'll try to keep things simple and only bring up the mostly relevant gains from each level.

1 - Barbarian 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, 28 skill points
2 - Bard 1 - Inspire Courage +1, Music 1/day, +9 skill points
3 - Barbarian 2 - Quick Draw, Uncanny Dodge, +7 skill points
4 - Bard 2 - Music 2/day, +9 skill points (potential to cast 1st-level spells should I get a Charisma increasing item)
5 - Bard 3 - Inspire Competence, Music 3/day, +9 skill points
6 - Bard 4 - Weapon Finesse?!?, Music 4/day, +9 skill points (potential to cast 2nd-level spells should I get a Charisma increasing item)
7 - Dragon Disciple 1 - Natural Armor Increase +1, +5 skill points
8 - Dragon Disciple 2 - Ability Boost (Str 16), +5 skill points
9 - Dragon Disciple 3 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Breath Weapon 1/day ("woop-de-dooh"); Cold Breath for thematic reasons + cone shape, +5 skill points
10 - Dragon Disciple 4 - Ability Boost (Str 18), Natural Armor Increase +2, +5 skill points
11 - Barbarian 3 - Resist Cold 2 (Campaign specific ACF for reasons), +7 skill points
12 - Barbarian 4 - Harmonic Spell (Campaign Specific feat; lets me start Music Buff with the same action used to cast a spell), Rage 2/day, +7 skill points
13 - Bard 5 - Music 5/day, +9 skill points
14 - Bard 6 - Suggestion, Music 6/day, +9 skill points
15 - Bard 7 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (assuming +2 Dex item), Music 7/day, +9 skill points
16 - Bard 8 - Inspire Courage +2, Music 8/day, +9 skill points

Again, do note that this build was made before I made the thread in here.

[Arkhios]

For those who didn't notice, I have updated my previous post I made in the morning.

However, I feel that the comment below deserves a separate post, even though I prefer to avoid double posting.

Regarding the argument of using armor spikes as your "off-hand weapon" with Two-Weapon Fighting when you're using your (only) two hands to attack with something else, is dubious at best. I've seen this argument before, and I have checked it from my DM. It doesn't fly in his table. And frankly, I agree. Of course, I might have used the house-rule, if he had hand-waved it. But, he didn't.

[H_H_F_F]

Going straight Bard for half the levels honestly sounds like a bad Idea to me. BaB will be staggered for another point at 5, HP will lag way behind the other options, and you can't cast. You'll invest a ton of resources in having more uses of inspire courage than there are likely to be encounters, with no way to optimize inspire courage - spending a standard action at 15 to give everyone +1 is dubious at best.

If you wanna go Bard, go Bard, but I think even swapping the last 4 bard levels to barbarian would see better results.

[Arkhios]

Going straight Bard for half the levels honestly sounds like a bad Idea to me. BaB will be staggered for another point at 5, HP will lag way behind the other options, and you can't cast. You'll invest a ton of resources in having more uses of inspire courage than there are likely to be encounters, with no way to optimize inspire courage - spending a standard action at 15 to give everyone +1 is dubious at best.

If you wanna go Bard, go Bard, but I think even swapping the last 4 bard levels to barbarian would see better results.

I can't argue with that, a Barbarian 8 instead of Bard 8 might be better in the long term. But the build I posted above is an old one that I'm likely going to discard anyway. I merely posted it to show my own plans in more details. Admittedly, Horizon Walker could work well in place of those last bard levels as well. For example, Aquatic, Desert, and Underground for terrain masteries, in any order would be nice.

I admit that the whole character idea was inspired by the Harmonic Spell -feat used in combination with Rage (2nd lvl spell) and Inspire Courage as it could make me resemble a Skald (a barbarian/bard hybrid class from Pathfinder 1st edition) and their iconic feature: Inspired Rage (essentially Rage spell's effect bestowed via Bardic Music without adverse drawbacks).

[Darg]

Edit:
I see a few people suggesting bashing with a shield two-handed. RAW it's not strictly speaking possible (that is, you can of course wield a shield in two hands, you just don't get any benefit from it), even with a Heavy Shield, because RAW Shield Bash is ALWAYS an off-hand weapon. Regardless of how many hands I use, it will still apply only ½-strength to damage rolls. Even if you make a single attack on your turn. Essentially, a shield is only ever useful as an off-hand weapon combined with TWF. At other times, I wouldn't bother, unless there is some unexpected benefit for doing so.

A shield is a weapon at least. You can simply make a normal attack with it and it wouldn't be improvised and this RAW. In this way you can use a heavy shield two handed and receive the full two handed strength bonus.

Using the shield bash rules makes using a heavy shield for bash attacks unusable. Quite literally.

It's too bad you can't use the PHBII. It has awesome support for shield use.

[Arkhios]

A shield is a weapon at least. You can simply make a normal attack with it and it wouldn't be improvised and this RAW. In this way you can use a heavy shield two handed and receive the full two handed strength bonus.

Using the shield bash rules makes using a heavy shield for bash attacks unusable. Quite literally.

It's too bad you can't use the PHBII. It has awesome support for shield use.

Shield Bash's classification as an off-hand weapon is an exception to the generic rules. As we know, in D&D an exception always supercedes generic. Thus, regardless of how you're handling your shield, since the exception makes it an always off-hand weapon, you only add half your strength bonus to damage rolls with a shield.

Heavy Shield Bash is no more unusable than any other one-handed weapon in off-hand. Assuming you were to attack with two one-handed weapons using TWF you most likely have very high strength, so even the ½-strength modifier is going to be quite impressive.
Without TWF, you'll hit with a heavy shield just as easily as with any other one-handed weapon. The only real down-side is the lower bonus on damage roll.

A shield bash without spikes is, of course, a bit wet noodle, and spikes make it only slightly better since piercing is by far the worst physical damage type since so few creatures have damage reduction that is penetrated by it. Bashing Enhancement makes both light and heavy shields pretty amazing still.
A funny rules detail: a spiked bashing heavy shield's damage die is 1d10. And it's still only martial weapon. Being piercing makes it less amazing, but at least it's also a magic weapon by then, so it's not that bad after all.

It's been a while since I read PHBII so I'll take your word for it. Sadly I can't use anything from it, but fortunately for the same reason, they're irrelevant to me.

[Fizban]

I want to provide "weapons DPR" in combat and skill support out of combat. I really wouldn't mind if I was able to adapt to the situation as needed.
In a core-only game, you'll need to accept that "weapons DPR" is not a role (nor is DPR supposed to be a role at all, because everyone likes dealing damage, so no one person should be such a focus they could claim "DPR" as a role [nor is there a "face" role, everyone should be allowed to roleplay and social skill points should never be required to progress]).

The standard fighter/barb/pal role is meatshield. Blocking lines of attack with your body, forcing foes to attack your AC and hit points or waste actions and eat AoOs "going around," if it's even possible (because dungeons, doorways, control spells, etc). You have high dex, which doesn't actually make your AC better than heavy armor would, but does mean you get to keep a 40' speed. That speed means the party as a whole can be more mobile/you can compensate for other people breaking formation more easily.

TWF with shield bash is not bad for meatshield, since planting your feet and waiting for the enemy (with a full defense or readied attack) is how you get full attacks. Though it does mean that you're hosed out of good use of Weapon Specialization. You have the Int to take Combat Expertise, which is the secret ingredient (on top of actually having a shield) that people who think AC is useless fail to use.



I'll dig in deeper later today (just woke up and I'm prepping for work), but spells aren't the primary concern for me in bard. Skills and Bardic Music (mainly Inspire Courage and potentially Inspire Competence) are; after all, Bardic Music depends more on the Bard levels for daily uses, and ranks in Perform more than Charisma for their potency. I plan to even out all odd stats remaining (con and cha) but I'm uncertain in which order to do so.
Unless you're expecting to Fascinate/Suggest things or go full bard, even perform hardly matters. And since you can't Fascinate in combat, using it requires the entire rest of the party (and also the DM!) to let you use it, rather than starting a fight on sight.

Edit:
I see a few people suggesting bashing with a shield two-handed. RAW it's not strictly speaking possible (that is, you can of course wield a shield in two hands, you just don't get any benefit from it), even with a Heavy Shield, because RAW Shield Bash is ALWAYS an off-hand weapon. Regardless of how many hands I use, it will still apply only ½-strength to damage rolls. Even if you make a single attack on your turn. Essentially, a shield is only ever useful as an off-hand weapon combined with TWF. At other times, I wouldn't bother, unless there is some unexpected benefit for doing so.
So your DM is planning on running a game to 15th or higher, SRD-only, and is using the harshest possible readings on all of the stuff you've taken (so you're eating -4 on both attacks with TWF with your one-handed heavy shield bash, greaat), and doesn't care that it was based on a misunderstanding so you aren't allowed to change it?

That's like half the red flags in the box bub.

From Optimization point of view, I'm the one in our group most inclined to do planning ahead, though I do try to avoid excess Min/Max Optimization.
As for the in-game power level, the other members of our group are:

Pure Gnome Druid with a Riding Dog as our primary "tank(s)"
And you're competing with a Druid. A Small druid with a con bonus for +1 AC, +1 hp/level, and making full use of the companion from the sound of it.

This is a textbook example of the "core is broken, look at how easy it is to screw up a character/accidentally char-op past everyone" argument. All it needs is for the Druid to upgrade to a Brown Bear companion and realize that they can use Natural Spell to cast spells in the form of a tiny unobtrustive bird. Dare I ask how many magic items you have?

As it is, right now I'm leaning towards writing off the first half of your character, essentially, and just be a Bard that's two levels and two feats behind. Except-

Pure Human Sorcerer with Focus on Enchantment spells
You can't do that, because then you have Bard casting 2 levels behind, vs a full leveled sorcerer. And you can't go skills because-

Mix'n'match Dwarf Ranger/Rogue/"To-Be" Liberator
There's a Rogue in the party, and you'd need to go Rogue yourself just to get Trapfinding.

The sorcerer is likely to take Leadership and take a wizard we've met as his cohort, who in turn is likely to handle a whole plethora of knowledge skills, so I won't need them that much either. Spellcraft and UMD I want to keep maxed because of reasons.
Ahahahahahahaha. Ha. :smallsigh:

I was going to try and provide some tinkering advice, but really I'm surprised the others posters aren't more up-in-arms about this. There is zero way your character is going to work in this party without changes. If the DM was going to refuse any take-backs, they should have not allowed this to happen. This is why the game is run by people, this is why the DMG explicitly tells the DM not to be a robot.

It's time to put your foot down. This build is only going to get more un-fun over time, and you should not have to wait until level 8, or 12, or 15 for the DM to get over themselves and let you fix it. This is the kind of situation that makes people intentionally kill off their own characters. The other players would have to be screwing themselves over on purpose to overcome the -4/-4 penalty you're being given from that shield bash reading, or to let you carve out a niche of spell or skill use.

The one, simplest, fallback role in the party you could take, the one that your starting class actually belongs to, the meatshield, has been taken by the most powerful character in the party. Just. . . come on.


If you absolutely must remain in this game, with this DM-screwed character, then. . . is the Ranger ranged or TWF? If they're not ranged, I'd say eat the lost feats and pivot into archery. This could be Dragon Disciple, just plain Bard, or Fighter, but you can make the swap faster with Fighter and Weapon Spec will provide more damage than Inspire Courage. Since you can't take Extra Rage, there's no point in having a bow at your raging str bonus, and with these rulings I doubt you'll get any slack on item costs if you take DD and your str goes up over time.

But if you want skills, and there are some skills in the party that are both not being done and needed and on the Bard list, and you're fine wasting your first turn giving everyone else buffs before you're allowed to attack, then sure full Bard. Take as many overpowered ultility/buff/etc spells you can, especially if the Sorcerer isn't taking them, and leverage any gear you can as hard as you can.

Otherwise, eat the lost feats and pivot into Barbarian. If, hypothetically, the riding dog dies or gets phased out, and the Druid stops tanking (and in particular, starts buffing you), then you can be the tank. Take Combat Expertise and. . . well not much else with those options Maybe go ahead and DD just for the natural armor. If you want to ever TWF, that "always off-hand" ruling means that bashing with a heavy shield is never going to work, so you'll have to take another loss and go down to a light shield. Your damage will never be "high"- you'll feel bad stacked up against sneak attack, power attack, bears, or spells, but if the rest of the party only ever makes one sneak attack per round and never uses bears or decent damage spells, and you get a decent magic weapon and magic shield spikes, it should be. . . fine. With a lot of ifs.


But seriously. Your character has accidentally ended up un-fun, due directly to your attempts to accommodate another player, and the DM's own rulings. You are supposed to have fun. You are supposed to have fun because your character is fun, not suffer through a bad character just because "DnD with your friends" is "fun." The DM is responsible for making sure of this, literally in the rules in the DMG. You should be allowed to fix your character. And if the DM values RAW more than you, then they don't deserve you. It's that simple.


I admit that the whole character idea was inspired by the Harmonic Spell -feat used in combination with Rage (2nd lvl spell) and Inspire Courage as it could make me resemble a Skald (a barbarian/bard hybrid class from Pathfinder 1st edition) and their iconic feature: Inspired Rage (essentially Rage spell's effect bestowed via Bardic Music without adverse drawbacks).
You wanted a Pathfinder class, or something like it, and were instead allowed a (late-game?) feat that doesn't even do that (because the Rage spell is worse than the feature and still has the drawbacks). I just. . . don't even. All you need for this is Barb 1/Bard X, Extra Rage, maybe Lingering Song. Sing when you're not fighting, then rage when the fight starts (which the DM will probably say drops the song, though it's debatable). For rage with no drawbacks, you just use Whirling Frenzy (all-upside stealth buff to the class, in the online SRD, where that list of non-PHB stuff obviously came from so it's not like we don't know what's going on), or Ferocity (from the Cityscape Web Enhancement, which is also available online, for free!).

These do not require zomg entire books of horrible non-SRD content. They are some of the simplest possible feats and feature changes in the game. But you still decided to go ahead without them. And now you're being told what you did build actually sucks and you're never allowed to change it. :smallfurious:

Quick Edit: And if this is supposed to be some sort of "realistic character continuity" thing- well the realistic thing that happens with hamstrung character, is that eventually the party realizes they aren't pulling their weight and are becoming a liability, and kicks them out. If they're family or valued friends, they tell them to stay home so they don't get killed.

[Arkhios]

Regarding roles, I know some believe there are four roles that "must" be filled in D&D, colloquially represented by Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. I'm not a "devout believer" of that role-division, and I try to avoid falling into that hole on purpose. But, humoring this idea for a while, I guess my character falls most into Fighter-Rogue area. Since the Ranger/Rogue falls into that same category, I really don't see why we couldn't/shouldn't complement each other. Also, Druid fills the "Cleric" role, but also fulfills several qualities of the "Fighter" role. Effectively we have three characters partially sharing one role, and two characters sharing another.

We've played two other campaigns with the same limitations already, both without a hitch. These campaigns aren't the DM's own creation. Now, we're tackling the Second Darkness, part of Adventure Path series set in Golarion, from Paizo (specifically the ones that came out BEFORE Pathfinder had its own rules). The first two were Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, and we intend to play Legacy of Fire next, still with these same limitations. All four are intended to be played with 3.5 (Anniversary Editions are a different beast we chose not to play, intentionally). And as I said, the previous two adventure paths went well, even with our limitations. Much fun was had, and the lack of multitude of splat books didn't matter.

We're a group of very good friends, and I've known the DM for nearly two decades and consider him as one of my best friends. We're playing to have fun together, not to compete with each other or trying to "win the DM". We are playing through a story, not running from encounter to another in non-stop combat, where only combat abilities count.
We all agreed to using a very limited selection of rules, as a challenge of sorts.

As for the other characters, I'm not aware of the full details, but all of them are on the low end of char-op.

The dwarf is a Ranger 2/Rogue 2, with Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7, running around in +1 studded leather armor, using a dwarven waraxe and a +1 heavy shield. With TWF Combat Style. Without Improved Shield Bash. We have the exact same amount of skill points at the moment, and same BAB. I have two barbarian levels worth of more hit points compared to the dwarf. The Liberator Prestige Class is a full BAB class with 2+int skill points and 1d10 hit points per level. He is not going to be a skill monkey in the long term. He will have a very narrow set of skills that are maxed. In that regard, I disagree I couldn't be the skill monkey going forward.

FWIW, the Dwarf's player has been talking from the beginning that they'll start swinging TWO Dwarven Waraxes once they get to higher levels, FULLY aware of the -4/-4 penalties. You see, it's a decision based on flavor rather than function. As many other decisions we've made over the years. Our characters are more than just some text and numbers on a paper.

I didn't say I was using a heavy shield. I only acknowledged the rules as they are written. I have a +1 light shield with so far only masterwork spikes, aiming to upgrade it to bashing, when I'm able. In that vein, I could definitely consider taking the suggested weapon finesse route (especially if I ditch the idea of going for DD). Masterwork/magical light shield already makes it more viable with finesse since it has a whole ±0 ACP (which would affect attack rolls with finesse, if it was worse).

The Druid's stats are quite "impressive", I admit. Str 11, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10. However, the player is fairly new to D&D as a whole, having played only with us. We strongly suggested them to go with Riding Dog, because otherwise they would've taken a wolf or plain dog (they love dogs IRL, so it figures), which aren't nearly as good as Riding Dog. As far as I know, they intend to keep that Riding Dog unless something irreversible happens to it.

They wanted to be the tank this time around, they even spoke of this character idea already before we started this campaign. I thought to myself, why not let them. I've broken the game already twice with my previous characters. First with an AC 45+, HP near 200 dwarf tank "knocking-down" giants with ease and smashing them into pulp in Rise of the Runelords, and previously with a cerebremancer in Curse of the Crimson Throne, who already broke magic with psionics but also became a werebear fully unexpected, and became inadvertently our tank with even higher AC (50+) AND 280 hit points. And he was the "mage" of our group (sheesh!). Thanks to his psionics capability, our DM decided we're not allowed to play manifesters anymore (can't really argue with that, psionics are bat-****-crazy in this edition :D). AND I played them by the book, rules as written, continuously double checking with my DM if this or that works as intended.

So, maybe it is time for someone else to wreck the game. If that means that someone is basically a newbie playing a druid, accidentally making a very effective character, how is that something I should worry about? Good for them. Let them have fun too. I'm not (intentionally) trying to compete with them or their role, and beat them in that.

I have an amulet of natural armor +1, a +1 mithral chain mail, and the shield I mentioned above, making my (almost never flat-footed) AC 23. At this level, it's equal with the riding dog's AC who has only a normal leather armor barding. I can very easily take the "off-tank" meatshield role if something were to happen to the dog or the druid. Even with two levels in bard making me effectively equal to only a third level Barbarian in hit points and BAB.

As for the sorcerer, they are quite literally a glass cannon. Except, until last game, they've done no damage whatsoever with their spells. Only with a crossbow with out of the blue critical hits. I'm not sure if they even have damaging spells other than magic missile. But, they will get there, wanting to solve any problems unsolvable with guile or diplomacy with fireballs after fireballs, preferably multiple times per round. Again, that doesn't concern me. Neither Barbarian or Bard are intended to do that, so why would that be my problem to beat and solve?
My intent with Spellcraft is to use a gimmick I found both fun and interesting, being able to use Spellcraft as a means of identifying magic items SO THAT WE WOULDN'T ALWAYS NEED TO RELY ON IDENTIFY. With Use Magic Device I intend to patch up my lower charisma, and lack of spells of my own. Is there something wrong in that?


As for singing and raging simultaneously. Bardic Music says explicitly when an option you're using requires Concentration and when they don't say it, it doesn't. Inspire Courage is one of those. RAW I can continue singing even while raging. Also, plenty of metal and especially punk or rap singers would agree. As does my DM. You can be angry and sing at the same time! :smalltongue:

So what if I can't attack on the first round. We're playing as a team towards the same goal, not against each other. If one of my turns in combat goes to buff other characters, then so be it. It's not the end of the world.
I normally stay at the back of our formation because I have very good AC, basically can't be "surprised" (read: caught flat-footed) thanks to uncanny dodge, and because I have the speed to go to the front easily on the next turn. Or keep singing and attack from range (though less effective without the feat support).


Overall, my concerns for the future is not about how to be better than my companions at what they do. It's about being better at what I do.
I am NOT trying to COMPETE with anyone. If I wanted to have a competition with my fellow players, there are better games and platforms for doing that. Such as Super Mario Bros.

[Fizban]

+1 heavy shield. With TWF Combat Style. Without Improved Shield Bash.
o.O
And they're hitting more often than you?

He is not going to be a skill monkey in the long term. He will have a very narrow set of skills that are maxed. In that regard, I disagree I couldn't be the skill monkey going forward.
Fair enough then, but only you know what skills are actually expected by your table.

I didn't say I was using a heavy shield. I only acknowledged the rules as they are written. I have a +1 light shield with so far only masterwork spikes, aiming to upgrade it to bashing, when I'm able. In that vein, I could definitely consider taking the suggested weapon finesse route (especially if I ditch the idea of going for DD). Masterwork/magical light shield already makes it more viable with finesse since it has a whole ±0 ACP (which would affect on attack rolls with finesse, if it was worse).
I know you mentioned heavy shield somewhere, but okay, that just makes it weird if you're hitting less often than someone with -4 on both attacks. At least I assume so, since you said you're not hitting very often.

fireballs after fireballs, preferably multiple times per round. Again, that doesn't concern me.
Well you did say you'd envisioned some sort of melee DPR role, but you seem to have swapped over to secondary tank/support.

So what if I can't attack on the first round. We're playing as a team towards the same goal, not against each other. I normally stay at the back of our formation because I have very good AC, basically can't be "surprised" (read: caught flat-footed) thanks to uncanny dodge, and because I have the speed to go to the front easily on the next turn. Or keep singing and attack from range (though less effective without the feat support).
That is the correct attitude (like, seriously, the amount of time I've spent shouting "Its a team game!" in the past. . .), but I would generally prefer to have some option of what to do on the first round, be it full defense or readied action or ranged attack or activate an item or . . . when if you aren't allowed to sing before fights, having to IC every combat is just. . . blech. But it's a question that's moot if you're allowed to sing between fights.

But you describe essentially a rearguard position, again, potentially of critical value- I've had two major experiences with such. One where a rearguard would have saved the wizard, and the other back when I started and the rest of the players ordered me to stand by the door and do nothing while they actually played the game. As long as the DM does occasionally send attacks a the rear to make rearguard into a party role, I'd say that does quite nicely.

Options remain the same:
As Barbarian, you would get more hit points, rage, and BAB, better for rear tank/occasionally hitting things.
As Dragon Disciple, you would get more str to offset BAB loss at the cost of iteratives, as well as more AC, and blindsense.
As Bard, you would get less hit points but eventually more IC, Inspire Greatness, and have more skills.

But if you want the skald aspect reflected in mechanics, there's really only one choice because only one advances music stuff, which means it's just a question of what skills to take. Having started with a barb-2 dip for low-level survivability is fine. The problem is that starting cha means you won't be able to learn 2nd or 3rd level spells anywhere near on time, just a giant pile of 1sts, unless you can count a +cha item for learning your base spells. Sounds like you planned hard for Dragon Disciple, and now that's pretty much all you've got, unless you really want Bard skills and Inspire Greatness.

So aside from that- well you can play the meta. The only/best currency you've got left is dip levels, though with Human and Dragon Disciple you'd have to try to hit the multiclassing penalty. If the current Rogue is not/will eventually ditch trapfinding duties, you can grab Rogue 1 next and start preparing for that, grabbing 5 ranks of Search and Disable, and the sneak attack die goes with both TWF and the claws+bite you'll get from DD2. After DD 4 or 5, you grab Rogue 2, shoring up the skills and picking up Evasion. And then do it again with Rogue 3 for the second SA and more skills. Or if the Rogue does continue trapfinding, or you suddenly need some combat feat, those can be Fighter levels, or Ranger levels, or Cleric levels (domain powers and wand activation!).

In a game where suddenly having 8 ranks of a skill, a particular feat, or a particular 1st level spell or item activation could be valuable, being willing to just take the dip required rather than stick to a build could be a role all it's own. Much fewer options here, but possible.

The main problem is that since you're probably not using fractional BAB/saves, dipping Rogue does cost another point of that upfront on top of the point you'll lose upfront from Dragon Disciple (though it will push your Reflex save even higher on top of Bard). I suppose in that context, just going to Barb 3 for the saves and BAB preservation isn't a bad idea.

Edit: regarding Weapon Finesse and/or throwing: well you've already got Quick Draw, there's no reason not to be throwing stuff at people whenever possible, and if it gives you a higher attack bonus then great. If you go Dragon Disciple, the Str boosts will eventually make Weapon Finesse moot. If you don't, it's basically +2 on your melee attacks, and shifts str items down a bit in priority.

Overall, my concerns for the future is not about how to be better than my companions at what they do. It's about being better at what I do.
I am NOT trying to COMPETE with anyone. If I wanted to have a competition with my fellow players, there are better games and platforms for doing that. Such as Super Mario Bros.
But that's kinda your problem here: what do you do? The party has a designated tank, healer, arcanist, face, someone with rogue levels who might be covering trap skills but is specifically aimed at being the TWF guy. . . and you're trying to pivot away from what you originally built the character for. The only role left, real or false, is DPS, but as you're aware this character just can't do it. What are you going to do that doesn't compete in some way?

What do you want to do then? 'Cause you'll always have forumites to argue for all presented options, plus three more you said you didn't want :smalltongue:

(Again, you seem to have already claimed a new rearguard tank role, which if supported is cool, and is fulfilled just by keeping your AC up, and matches your original choice of PrC. But you put it in bold so the response bears repeating.)

Edit war:

My intent with Spellcraft is to use a gimmick I found both fun and interesting, being able to use Spellcraft as a means of identifying magic items SO THAT WE WOULDN'T ALWAYS NEED TO RELY ON IDENTIFY. With Use Magic Device I intend to patch up my lower charisma, and lack of spells of my own. Is there something wrong in that?
That's usually quoted from MiC or Rules Compendium, and doesn't appear in the PHB or SRD that I'm aware of- are you sure it's even in play?

With low charisma, no crazy boosters, and possibly not even full bard levels, UMD isn't great- unless you're aiming to activate high level scrolls or staves, just dipping Cleric and Sor/Wiz or Magic Domain Cleric gets you nearly all the activations anyway. But you've already got the ranks, so. . . ?

[Arkhios]

o.O
And they're hitting more often than you?

I know you mentioned heavy shield somewhere, but okay, that just makes it weird if you're hitting less often than someone with -4 on both attacks. At least I assume so, since you said you're not hitting very often.
That's both because they haven't been using TWF yet, and because I've had pretty bad luck for some reason (I think last time I rolled 10 times in a row under 5 on a d20; I'm not really superstitious but I even bought new ones, just in case, and still no difference. Maybe the dice gods are angry at me for the previous characters). Regardless, I do feel that maybe I should consider something to improve my chances to hit otherwise.


Fair enough then, but only you know what skills are actually expected by your table.
Yeah. What skills to take and how much isn't really my problem here. I can manage them once I've decided which class(es) to go with from here on forward.


Well you did say you'd envisioned some sort of melee DPR role, but you seem to have swapped over to secondary tank/support.
Yeah, sorry for misleading. I think it's because earlier I couldn't really pin-point what my intended role would be. I'm still not entirely sure about it since I generally don't think about it. I guess a little bit of both of these. I realise that DPR isn't really a role, but it's something that I aim to do mostly with weapons, rather than spells etc.


That is the correct attitude (like, seriously, the amount of time I've spent shouting "Its a team game!" in the past. . .), but I would generally prefer to have some option of what to do on the first round, be it full defense or readied action or ranged attack or activate an item or . . . when if you aren't allowed to sing before fights, having to IC every combat is just. . . blech. But it's a question that's moot if you're allowed to sing between fights.

But you describe essentially a rearguard position, again, potentially of critical value- I've had two major experiences with such. One where a rearguard would have saved the wizard, and the other back when I started and the rest of the players ordered me to stand by the door and do nothing while they actually played the game. As long as the DM does occasionally send attacks a the rear to make rearguard into a party role, I'd say that does quite nicely.

But if you want the skald aspect reflected in mechanics, there's really only one choice because only one advances music stuff, which means it's just a question of what skills to take. Having started with a barb-2 dip for low-level survivability is fine. The problem is that starting cha means you won't be able to learn 2nd or 3rd level spells anywhere near on time, just a giant pile of 1sts, unless you can count a +cha item for learning your base spells. Sounds like you planned hard for Dragon Disciple, and now that's pretty much all you've got, unless you really want Bard skills and Inspire Greatness.
I tried to make it clear to our group that my character won't be particularly stealth-friendly with having chosen sing as my go-to perform style. I think the message was heard reasonably well. Unless we have an actual reason to not make our presence known, I usually keep singing as long as it's reasonably doable. So IC is most likely up pre-combat, unless situation demands a more silent approach.

A rearguard is something we've had ever since the first adventure path after our wizard got almost killed because we didn't have one. I'm taking that position in our formation gladly. Especially because of the character's movement speed I'm able to more easily relocate around the battlefield as required (in fact, I might consider start taking ranks in Tumble because of this).

I'm starting to feel OK with the idea that I may not be able to pull this skald idea through as well as I initially hoped. For reference, the Harmonic Spell Prerequisites are Bardic Music and Perform (any) 8 ranks, so it could be taken as early as 6th level. But that's were I might also take Weapon Finesse, so it's a bit of a dilemma.

The main idea was that I would Cast Rage (excluding myself), combine it with Inspire Courage, move to a position where I might grant flanking for the dwarf specifically, and then on my next turn, start my own rage as a free action and take a full attack. Rage doesn't end immediately after concentration. Instead it lingers for rounds equal to caster level, which is pretty OK, if I have them. I realise that if I only have up to 4 bard levels, it won't last longer than 4 rounds, unless I spend my turn concentrating on it, which I agree might not be worth it. So, I'm willing to consider just dropping the idea and instead try something else. Or I might keep Harmonic Spell in the build, but combine it with some other spell I know. Either way, reflecting Skald aspect in mechanics could be dropped.


So aside from that- well you can play the meta. The only/best currency you've got left is dip levels, though with Human and Dragon Disciple you'd have to try to hit the multiclassing penalty. If the current Rogue is not/will eventually ditch trapfinding duties, you can grab Rogue 1 next and start preparing for that, grabbing 5 ranks of Search and Disable, and the sneak attack die goes with both TWF and the claws+bite you'll get from DD2. After DD 4 or 5, you grab Rogue 2, shoring up the skills and picking up Evasion. And then do it again with Rogue 3 for the second SA and more skills. Or if the Rogue does continue trapfinding, or you suddenly need some combat feat, those can be Fighter levels, or Ranger levels, or Cleric levels (domain powers and wand activation!).
I believe the rogue will continue with at least Escape Artist and Open Lock as they are required skills for the prestige class. Honestly, it's very weird PrC (https://aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Liberator). I wouldn't have taken that, but they wanted to try it since it's available, and well, it's their character, not mine! Plus I don't want to try and speak them out of it, as they have already made the feat investment as required by the PrC (Power Attack, Improved Sunder, and Stealthy).


In a game where suddenly having 8 ranks of a skill, a particular feat, or a particular 1st level spell or item activation could be valuable, being willing to just take the dip required rather than stick to a build could be a role all it's own. Much fewer options here, but possible.
As a matter of fact, I did actually toy around with an idea of making this character into a patchwork of as many classes as possible, with one or two levels in each. Technically, it wouldn't even be that bad. It just would be a big mess of abilities. :D


The main problem is that since you're probably not using fractional BAB/saves, dipping Rogue does cost another point of that upfront on top of the point you'll lose upfront from Dragon Disciple (though it will push your Reflex save even higher on top of Bard). I suppose in that context, just going to Barb 3 for the saves and BAB preservation isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, we're not. I actually tried to petition the DM to allow it for everyone to use, not just me. But he thought it would be too much of a fuss to bother. Oh well, I can work with normal bonuses too.


regarding Weapon Finesse and/or throwing: well you've already got Quick Draw, there's no reason not to be throwing stuff at people whenever possible, and if it gives you a higher attack bonus then great. If you go Dragon Disciple, the Str boosts will eventually make Weapon Finesse moot. If you don't, it's basically +2 on your melee attacks, and shifts str items down a bit in priority.

But that's kinda your problem here: what do you do? The party has a designated tank, healer, arcanist, face, someone with rogue levels who might be covering trap skills but is specifically aimed at being the TWF guy. . . and you're trying to pivot away from what you originally built the character for. The only role left, real or false, is DPS, but as you're aware this character just can't do it. What are you going to do that doesn't compete in some way?

What do you want to do then? 'Cause you'll always have forumites to argue for all presented options, plus three more you said you didn't want :smalltongue:

(Again, you seem to have already claimed a new rearguard tank role, which if supported is cool, and is fulfilled just by keeping your AC up, and matches your original choice of PrC. But you put it in bold so the response bears repeating.)
Can't really argue with any of that. Nor do I want to. It's all true. Even the tongue-in-cheek bit about forumites :smalltongue:
I'm still a bit uncertain of what I'm trying to do, other than make myself look like a fool (which I may very well be, come to think of it)

Edit: seriously though, I think there is some value in considering trying to fit in at least point-blank shot and precise shot, because even thrown weapons benefit from those. And maybe I should really pivot from melee to ranged, because our group really doesn't have that base covered, apart from our back-up light crossbows.


That's usually quoted from MiC or Rules Compendium, and doesn't appear in the PHB or SRD that I'm aware of- are you sure it's even in play?

With low charisma, no crazy boosters, and possibly not even full bard levels, UMD isn't great- unless you're aiming to activate high level scrolls or staves, just dipping Cleric and Sor/Wiz or Magic Domain Cleric gets you nearly all the activations anyway. But you've already got the ranks, so. . . ?
Do you mean using Spellcraft as a substitute for Identify? It's a Campaign Trait for this particular campaign. Other trait I took to complement this makes the skill a Class Skill for all of my classes I have or will take.
(Traits, if you're not familiar with them, are essentially half-feats that everyone gets two of for free at 1st level. In Second Darkness and later, one of them must be a campaign trait that can't already be taken by another player. The other one can be from any subcategory (Combat, Faith, Magic, or Social. over the years more categories came available but for now these four are relevant), and should you ever obtain more via Additional Traits feat, you can't have two from the same category.)

[Fizban]

I'm starting to feel OK with the idea that I may not be able to pull this skald idea through as well as I initially hoped. For reference, the Harmonic Spell Prerequisites are Bardic Music and Perform (any) 8 ranks, so it could be taken as early as 6th level. But that's were I might also take Weapon Finesse, so it's a bit of a dilemma.

The main idea was that I would Cast Rage (excluding myself), combine it with Inspire Courage, move to a position where I might grant flanking for the dwarf specifically, and then on my next turn, start my own rage as a free action and take a full attack. Rage doesn't end immediately after concentration. Instead it lingers for rounds equal to caster level, which is pretty OK, if I have them. I realise that if I only have up to 4 bard levels, it won't last longer than 4 rounds, unless I spend my turn concentrating on it, which I agree might not be worth it. So, I'm willing to consider just dropping the idea and instead try something else. Or I might keep Harmonic Spell in the build, but combine it with some other spell I know. Either way, reflecting Skald aspect in mechanics could be dropped.
I would definitely recommend giving up on this one- the components were never quite strong enough to make the combo significant. If Bard still had Enlarge or Bull's Strength, those would be excellent spells to combo with a song on round one, but they were removed for 3.5. But if you kept on to 3rd level spells and Inspire Greatness, combining that with Good Hope would be an excellent buff. If you can get your spell learning fixed.

I believe the rogue will continue with at least Escape Artist and Open Lock as they are required skills for the prestige class.
Guess you'll just have to wait and see if they're continuing trapfinding then.

Edit: seriously though, I think there is some value in considering trying to fit in at least point-blank shot and precise shot, because even thrown weapons benefit from those. And maybe I should really pivot from melee to ranged, because our group really doesn't have that base covered, apart from our back-up light crossbows.
PBS is immediate benefit that will make thrown daggers better than a finesse'd short sword (as long as you've got the 5' of space of course) at least until you've got magic weapons to compete with. And you could take Magic Weapon. . . no you can't, man they really gutted the 3.5 list. Still. If you drop Bard aspirations yeah, you can get PBS and PS on 5 and 6 with Fighter 1 and DD1, or delay DD a level to cram Fighter 2 and add Combat Expertise for more tanking. And It sort of gives more significance to the shield bash, even locked to off-hand only, since it means in melee you've got one "weapon" that isn't expected to be thrown. And throwing means you might end up with an empty hand and get your claws on.

But it's not such a huge upside that it beats Good Hope+Inspire Greatness, if you can get your spells. And even missing so many 3.0 buffs, the utility of Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Mouth (an alarm spell you can cast and carry in your back pocket, no programming restrictions), and so on.

So I guess the question comes down to: assuming you can fix spell learning, how hard do you think you'll need to tank for reargurd? If you can manage it with Bard hp, then go bard, grab the spell+song feat either at 6 or 9 depending on when you've got something good to use it with, and PBS/PS/CE whenever around those. If you want to be tanky tank, stick with Dragon Disciple and set up to throw daggers for your attacks, with Rogue or Fighter options as needed.

Do you mean using Spellcraft as a substitute for Identify? It's a Campaign Trait for this particular campaign. Other trait I took to complement this makes the skill a Class Skill for all of my classes I have or will take.
Ah.

[Arkhios]

Below is the latest build with discussed changes considered. I tried to avoid getting dead levels, but I had higher priority for not to delay any base save value from improving for longer than 3 levels, so I had to accept one dead level. Most importantly, I decided against taking Weapon Finesse because taking Dragon Disciple was the biggest driving force of the character concept so I really do want those four levels, so taking Weapon Finesse now would become obsolete once my str catches up with dex, and knowing I may not be able to swap it with another feat later, it's probably not too wise to take it at all.

I realised that since I'm not absolutely needed in the frontline right now, it might be more beneficial if I stayed a bit farther away, while throwing daggers, javelins, and/or throwing axes, entering melee only if it's tactically necessary. With my speed I can position myself pretty much anywhere I want to be.


Initial scores:
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 11

Barbarian 1: Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rage 1/day
Bard 1: Inspire Courage +1
Barbarian 2: Quick Draw
Bard 2: Dex 18
Fighter 1: Point-Blank Shot
Fighter 2: Far Shot, Precise Shot
Fighter 3 (the only Dead level!)
Bard 3: Cha 12, Inspire Competence
Fighter 4: Rapid Shot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Dragon Disciple 1: Natural Armor Increase +1
Dragon Disciple 2: Ability Boost (Str 16), Claws and bite.
Dragon Disciple 3: Con 14, Endurance
Dragon Disciple 4: Ability Boost (Str 18), Natural Armor Increase +2
Horizon Walker 1
Barbarian 3: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (assuming Dex +2 item)
Barbarian 4: Dex 19, Rage 2/day


Base statistics @ lvl16

Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Hit Points: 124 (max HP at level one, even levels rounded down, odd levels rounded up)
Fort: +17 (base +15, con +2)
Ref: +11 (base +6, dex +5 w/item)
Will: +9 (base +9, wis +0)
BAB: +14/+9/+4
TWF: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 (main-hand 1dW+4 dmg, off-hand: 1dW+2 damage)

[rrwoods]

Totally minor point that doesn't much matter in the long run: I don't see a reason not to take Bard 3 before Fighter 3, since swapping those levels doesn't penalize you in XP and making this swap *does* provide you your bard spells from bard 3 one level earlier.

[Arkhios]

Totally minor point that doesn't much matter in the long run: I don't see a reason not to take Bard 3 before Fighter 3, since swapping those levels doesn't penalize you in XP and making this swap *does* provide you your bard spells from bard 3 one level earlier.

Sure, I considered that. It would just mean that both reflex and will saves wouldn't improve for a fourth level in a row. I guess it's my OCD; I tried to keep saves progressing at a certain rate, at most three levels without progress.

[Fizban]

What's Horizon Walker 1 for? The only thing I ever see the class mentioned for is the apparently at-will Dimension Door, but that's level 6.

And no DD 5? But Blindsense!

I would also recommend against Improved TWF if you're having troubles hitting- the extra hit at a further -5 isn't a great deal, not for a long time (and with no Horizon Walker that would free up a feat later). I'm also skeptical of Bard 3, especially so soon, and for that matter, delaying DD so much. If the game's going to 15th-16th, and you're focusing on a low-damage weapon, getting to that DD capstone with the final +4 strength seems like a good idea.

I know I mentioned save losses myself, but it shouldn't be that big a deal with Bard compensating on reflex and DD providing a second dose of will and fort.

A cool thing about throwing weapons and already having all martial proficiency, is that you can throw whatever you want. Javelins for 30' range, light hammers for bludgeoning (and 20' range), and throwing axes or daggers for slashing. Daggers get all the press and a fancy vest, but no rule prevents you from having all the rest lined up and ready. Unless you're taking Far Shot to combine with javelins to try and reach ranged ranges.

Sure, I considered that. It would just mean that both reflex and will saves wouldn't improve for a fourth level in a row. I guess it's my OCD; I tried to keep saves progressing at a certain rate, at most three levels without progress.
With low saves progressing at 1/3 and no fractions, that's basically just letting the classes you've already taken and the order they're in dictate the terms.

[Arkhios]

What's Horizon Walker 1 for? The only thing I ever see the class mentioned for is the apparently at-will Dimension Door, but that's level 6.

And no DD 5? But Blindsense!
It was either DD5 for blindsense or Horizon Walker for Terrain Mastery: Desert [which grants immunity to Fatigue. Also, making Exhaustion a Fatigue instead is a nice bonus (AFAIK this is, however, an exception to the former immunity)] and another bump on BAB, so ultimately I settled for the latter. Plus I do think Endurance is actually a pretty cool feat, if a more situational.
Alternatively, I could take Underground Mastery for 60 ft. Darkvision, if we end up being underground for the majority of our time, which may well be the case, considering we've recently been set up against drow (which, according to the campaign setting's in-game lore, "*gasp* SHOULDN'T EXIST!?!")


I would also recommend against Improved TWF if you're having troubles hitting- the extra hit at a further -5 isn't a great deal, not for a long time (and with no Horizon Walker that would free up a feat later). I'm also skeptical of Bard 3, especially so soon, and for that matter, delaying DD so much. If the game's going to 15th-16th, and you're focusing on a low-damage weapon, getting to that DD capstone with the final +4 strength seems like a good idea.
Dragon Disciple 10 would lose too much BAB in my opinion, for the strength boosts to really be worth it. In the end a total of +7 BAB over 10 levels but only +4 to strength modifier feels like it doesn't compensate enough, just one point more to hit with lesser amount of iteratives. Improved and Greater TWF may not be that good for a long time, but they're still extra chances to hit at each iterative intervals. Plus a spiked bashing light shield damage isn't that low. It's 1d8 despite being piercing. Same as longsword. For a light off-hand weapon that's pretty damn good.
Bard 3 is mostly for that extra 1st level spell slot, extra bardic music use per day, and Inspire Competence to aid allies in critical skill checks.
I agree it could be taken at a later level just as well.

Edit: unless you referred to DD4 (strength score +4) being my personal capstone, not DD10 (strength score +8 and +4 mod). I suppose DD could be taken earlier, and suck it up for save losses at earlier levels; they will eventually rise to same values. Just delayed a bit further.


I know I mentioned save losses myself, but it shouldn't be that big a deal with Bard compensating on reflex and DD providing a second dose of will and fort.
Bard 3 only improves Fortitude by one, so it doesn't give much if taken before fighter 3, which does improve reflex and will at the same level. Because DD boosts Fort and Will further, and fortitude is already my best save even with con 13-14 and dex 18, I honestly feel that fighter 3 is actually better for save improvement earlier than bard 3.


A cool thing about throwing weapons and already having all martial proficiency, is that you can throw whatever you want. Javelins for 30' range, light hammers for bludgeoning (and 20' range), and throwing axes or daggers for slashing. Daggers get all the press and a fancy vest, but no rule prevents you from having all the rest lined up and ready. Unless you're taking Far Shot to combine with javelins to try and reach ranged ranges.
I'm already carrying a pretty impressive "golf-bag" of different weapons, daggers, javelins, and throwing axes included, so Far Shot is to improve all of their ranges. Javelin of course being the ultimate ranged weapons competitor. (plus, the character concept is modeled after traditional vikings, carrying javelins in the shield hand, axes dangling from the hip, a seax (dagger-ish short blade) hidden behind back, and a longsword, which is/was a mark of wealth and/or nobility among old norse society.


With low saves progressing at 1/3 and no fractions, that's basically just letting the classes you've already taken and the order they're in dictate the terms.
Yeah, I'm aware. It frustrates me at times as well, that I can't help myself and ignore the slowed progression caused by multiclassing (which I tend to do more often than not) x)

[denthor]

Without getting to technical.

Go straight barbarian from here on out. Your feats are few but get range weapon. Become a survival expert and the party scout.

A barbarian scout is deadly to rangers, thieves and will most likely survive and put a hurt on them.

[Arkhios]

Without getting to technical.

Go straight barbarian from here on out. Your feats are few but get range weapon. Become a survival expert and the party scout.

A barbarian scout is deadly to rangers, thieves and will most likely survive and put a hurt on them.

We don't need another heeeeeerooo
...err, scout, to be entirely honest (and serious; forgive the lack of caffeine in my veins). Dwarf is handling it well enough already, with racial darkvision, max ranks in hide and move silently, and the Stealthy feat they took to qualify for the Prestige Class.
And I do kinda want those extra feats to be better at range than without them, so less feats = not good.

[Darg]

DD 10 gives 16 strength. 8 from DD and 8 from the template. Class feature bonuses and template bonuses are separate sources. One is a level up bonus and the other is a modification to the base creature. It would be like saying you lose your wings because you aren't large size or larger.

[Arkhios]

DD 10 gives 16 strength. 8 from DD and 8 from the template. Class feature bonuses and template bonuses are separate sources. One is a level up bonus and the other is a modification to the base creature. It would be like saying you lose your wings because you aren't large size or larger.

No it doesn't. That's a common misconception.

[H_H_F_F]

DD 10 gives 16 strength. 8 from DD and 8 from the template. Class feature bonuses and template bonuses are separate sources. One is a level up bonus and the other is a modification to the base creature. It would be like saying you lose your wings because you aren't large size or larger.

This isn't the appropriate good faith reading in my view. It's no coincidence that the bonuses from DD and the template are exactly identical.

[rrwoods]

Don't get into the DD debate here; some tables will play it one way, and some another way. It's clear that the OP's DD will roll the class's bonuses into the template rather than treating them as separate bonuses. What RAW says (or doesn't say, or how ambiguous it is or isn't) is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Darg]

No it doesn't. That's a common misconception.

How does that work? RAW says that is how it works. Unless there is some rule somewhere that says if a creature gains a template they don't get all the features of the template? Dragon Apotheosis says they gain the template. If it wasn't intended to gain the template, all they had to say was that your racial type changes to dragon. The rest of the ability gives you the rest of the benefits.

I don't see why the player should suffer through DD just to get something that could be gotten at level 1? Gaining the template also means you get the LA +3. You might as well get the bonuses if you are getting the penalties too. The only real benefit would be bonus spells and wings if smaller than large

I don't see how it should be any different than lycanthropy.

[Arkhios]

This isn't the appropriate good faith reading in my view. It's no coincidence that the bonuses from DD and the template are exactly identical.
Exactly.


How does that work? RAW says that is how it works. Unless there is some rule somewhere that says if a creature gains a template they don't get all the features of the template? Dragon Apotheosis says they gain the template. If it wasn't intended to gain the template, all they had to say was that your racial type changes to dragon. The rest of the ability gives you the rest of the benefits.

I don't see why the player should suffer through DD just to get something that could be gotten at level 1? Gaining the template also means you get the LA +3. You might as well get the bonuses if you are getting the penalties too. The only real benefit would be bonus spells and wings if smaller than large

I don't see how it should be any different than lycanthropy.

See above. I won't argue over this any further. You may believe whatever you wish, but it won't change the minds of myself nor my DM's.

[H_H_F_F]

How does that work? RAW says that is how it works. Unless there is some rule somewhere that says if a creature gains a template they don't get all the features of the template? Dragon Apotheosis says they gain the template. If it wasn't intended to gain the template, all they had to say was that your racial type changes to dragon. The rest of the ability gives you the rest of the benefits.

I don't see why the player should suffer through DD just to get something that could be gotten at level 1? Gaining the template also means you get the LA +3. You might as well get the bonuses if you are getting the penalties too. The only real benefit would be bonus spells and wings if smaller than large

I don't see how it should be any different than lycanthropy.

Of course you don't get the LA. The RAI here is easy, obvious, and takes no effort to figure out. You know what the class was intended to achieve. "You get the benefits of half-dragon and then some over 10 levels of a d12 medium BaB class".

Every DM I've ever met had no issue figuring this stuff out, and always implemented it that way. You're not talking about TO or game design here, you're talking about a real table playing the game.

[Bronk]

Here's what I suggest: Take two levels of Fighter to shore up your feats (weapon finesse, etc.). Then, take that third level of bard so you can get that first level spell, that extra point of BAB, and to get your Knowledge Arcana skill up to 8 ranks, then take the first two levels of Dragon Disciple. Now you can use your shield to attack one handed, and follow up your attacks with a claw claw bite routine at only -5 for all three, or -2 if you take Multiattack as your level 9 feat.

Then, take one level in monk, then ditch your armor and switch to Duelist after that. Duelist will give you an AC bonus while unarmored, and Monk will give you free Unarmed Strike, and extra points of AC when wearing a periapt of wisdom unarmored.

Since other people in your group are getting character abilities from outside the SRD, maybe you could switch your bard to Savage Bard?

On top of all that, you could just take the leadership feat yourself, and get a cohort of the character you actually want to play, with your current character providing backup.


Of course you don't get the LA. The RAI here ...

I would have thought this to be worth a shot, considering Darg is technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. We've been told that the DM is a stickler for the rules, but it's more that he's a stickler for 'his' rules, including their table's established house rules. Well, a stickler unless it's when he's letting people use PRCs from other games and so on. I guess I'm glad everyone at that table is at least used to this, and even okay with it.

Just don't let the DM forget that you have natural attacks once you get DD level 2, separate from your iteratives.

[Arkhios]

Here's what I suggest: Take two levels of Fighter to shore up your feats (weapon finesse, etc.). Then, take that third level of bard so you can get that first level spell, that extra point of BAB, and to get your Knowledge Arcana skill up to 8 ranks, then take the first two levels of Dragon Disciple. Now you can use your shield to attack one handed, and follow up your attacks with a claw claw bite routine at only -5 for all three, or -2 if you take Multiattack as your level 9 feat.
My understanding is you can't make both claw attacks with the same claw. After all, light shield prevents you from using a weapon in that hand, and technically natural weapon is still a weapon in that regard. Whether I attack with the shield one-handed or not, it would still get only half-strength on damage roll (which I'm ok with, it's clear by the book so I have no reason to complain about it). However, claw damage is only 1d4 for a medium creature and bite 1d6. A longsword would be 1d8, and thus better than claw attack. Bite I could still use as part of full-attack so it's possible I would.


Then, take one level in monk, then ditch your armor and switch to Duelist after that. Duelist will give you an AC bonus while unarmored, and Monk will give you free Unarmed Strike, and extra points of AC when wearing a periapt of wisdom unarmored.
Ummmm, no. Monk requires you to be lawful. Barbarian loses the ability to rage if they ever become lawful. I know that technically I could just say the character became lawful for one level to get the monk level, and then back to chaotic later, but that's where my lactose intolerance kicks in. Plus, monk would mean yet another drop in BAB, so thanks but no thanks. Monk's Belt would do the same thing better, if I wanted to go that route.


Since other people in your group are getting character abilities from outside the SRD, maybe you could switch your bard to Savage Bard?
Just because the rules we use can be found from SRD doesn't mean we are using SRD as our baseline rules. We are using the actual books as I mentioned in OP. Abilities "outside SRD" are not freely taken from wherever they want. Savage Bard is from Unearthed Arcana, and while part of the website hosting SRD, is still very much not allowed.


On top of all that, you could just take the leadership feat yourself, and get a cohort of the character you actually want to play, with your current character providing backup.
I have considered taking Leadership too, but not because I'd want to make my current character effectively a sidekick for the cohort. Especially in an Adventure Path with drows about. I might risk end up being like Wulfgar with a drow "sidekick" taking the whole spotlight!


We've been told that the DM is a stickler for the rules, but it's more that he's a stickler for 'his' rules, including their table's established house rules. Well, a stickler unless it's when he's letting people use PRCs from other games and so on. I guess I'm glad everyone at that table is at least used to this, and even okay with it.
Those options "outside SRD" are from sources that are part of the setting we are playing in (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting was made to be used with D&D 3.5, a year or two before Pathfinder Core Rulebook was even published (at which point the setting was updated for those rules), and it's not like Greyhawk is the one and only setting to be used with 3.5 just because PHB shows Greyhawk Deities as default.) Those sources are available for me too, even though there wasn't anything that I wanted for this character, apart from setting flavor. In short, they are NOT from "another game". If anything, everything else is from another game when you consider all that I said.

Besides, being stickler for RAW doesn't mean the DM isn't allowed to expand available resources however they want to. Technically, Pathfinder Chronicles is not "other game". As I said above. Those rules are meant to be used with D&D 3.5. Meaning they are still essentially same game. Only difference is that the setting isn't made by WotC, TSR, or Gary Gygax.
Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting and Pathfinder Campaign Setting are different things, while they do share the same world: Golarion. The difference is that the former uses 3.5 d&d and the latter Pathfinder 1st (and 2nd) edition.
Check your facts before making faulty accusations.

Let's just say we're doing a "Nostalgy Trip" to 2007-2008, when Pathfinder (as "a game other than D&D") was still on the drawing table.


Just don't let the DM forget that you have natural attacks once you get DD level 2, separate from your iteratives.
I might just forget it myself. Those natural attacks aren't doing a whole lot of damage to be proud of. Claws 1d4 (P&S) and Bite 1d6 (B&P&S), of which bite can be used as part of a full-attack with other weapons.
Granted, natural weapons have a wider range of damage types simultaneously, but the base damage dice are not very impressive. Plus I doubt it's worth it to carry Amulet of Mighty Fists when you could be using the neck slot for something better, like Amulet of Natural Armor or Amulet of Health.

[saitoalan22]

Battle Howler of Gruumsh (Need Power Attack, Cleave)
add anoter Inspire Courage +1
Bardic music when in rage
spellcasting level in each level
stack with bardic music for levels

Heartfire Fanner (Skill focus Perform "any", Negotiator)
spellcasting level in each level
you can Inspire Feat (3) in 5th level (each four 4 character level to any allied, Example: in character lv12y ou can conferer feats to three allies)

what I have not achieved is to unite them because you waste too many feats xD

Human
Flaw 1 (any)
Flaw 2 (any)
Racial Bonus Feat (Skill focus Perform "any")
Bonus Feat Creation (Melodic Casting)
Bonus Flaw Feat 1 (Nymp's Kiss)
Bonus Flaw Feat 2 (Dragontouched)

1 - Bard lv1
2 - Bard lv2
3 - Bard lv3 (Power Attack)
4 - Bard lv4
5 - Bard lv5
6 - Eberron Bard lv6 (Negotiator) (Song of the Heart // Give Suggestion)

7 - Heartfire Fanner 1 -
Bardic Music (perform level), Inspire Feat (1)

8 - Heartfire Fanner 2 - Magic Flare

9 - Heartfire Fanner 3 (Cleave)
Inspire Feat (2)

10 - Heartfire Fanner 4 -

11 - Heartfire Fanner 5 -
Inspire Feat (3)

12 - Bard 7 (Draconic Heritage "Battle Dragon"

13 - Bard 8

14 - Eberron Bard 9 (Dragonfire Inspiration "sonic" // Give Inspire Greatness "from Bard")

15 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 1
Bardic Music

16 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 2
Rage 1/day

17 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 3
War cry (Inspire courage +1 and increase the range to 60ft)

18 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 4
Howling Rage (Any bardic music in a Rage)

19 - Seeker of the Song 1 (need Skillfocus perform "any")

20 - Seeker of the Song 2
Combine Songs

In this point you are a Bard with all the world in your songs
Combine songs
Inspire Courage +6
Dragonfire Inspiration (sonic)
Inspire Feat (3)
Inspire Magic (2) add +2 to caster level
Inspire competence
Suggestion
any others xD...

other form is with cleric and Hearfire Fanner for more magic

[Arkhios]

Battle Howler of Gruumsh (Need Power Attack, Cleave)
Not allowed. See Quote at the bottom.


Heartfire Fanner (Skill focus Perform "any", Negotiator)
Not allowed. See Quote at the bottom.


what I have not achieved is to unite them because you waste too many feats xD
Wasting feats is subjective. I don't think the feats I chose are wasted, especially when the plans I had didn't require ANY feats. In other words, I have all the freedom to choose any feats I like.
If anything is a waste of space it's this line in your post; sorry to be blunt. But, then again, so were you. "Pot calling the kettle black"


Human
Flaw 1 (any)
Flaw 2 (any)
Racial Bonus Feat (Skill focus Perform "any")
Bonus Feat Creation (Melodic Casting)
Bonus Flaw Feat 1 (Nymp's Kiss)
Bonus Flaw Feat 2 (Dragontouched)
Not allowed. See Quote at the bottom.


1 - Bard lv1
2 - Bard lv2
3 - Bard lv3 (Power Attack)
4 - Bard lv4
5 - Bard lv5
6 - Eberron Bard lv6 (Negotiator) (Song of the Heart // Give Suggestion)

7 - Heartfire Fanner 1 -
Bardic Music (perform level), Inspire Feat (1)

8 - Heartfire Fanner 2 - Magic Flare

9 - Heartfire Fanner 3 (Cleave)
Inspire Feat (2)

10 - Heartfire Fanner 4 -

11 - Heartfire Fanner 5 -
Inspire Feat (3)

12 - Bard 7 (Draconic Heritage "Battle Dragon"

13 - Bard 8

14 - Eberron Bard 9 (Dragonfire Inspiration "sonic" // Give Inspire Greatness "from Bard")

15 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 1
Bardic Music

16 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 2
Rage 1/day

17 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 3
War cry (Inspire courage +1 and increase the range to 60ft)

18 - Battle Howler of Gruumsh 4
Howling Rage (Any bardic music in a Rage)

19 - Seeker of the Song 1 (need Skillfocus perform "any")

20 - Seeker of the Song 2
Combine Songs

In this point you are a Bard with all the world in your songs
Combine songs
Inspire Courage +6
Dragonfire Inspiration (sonic)
Inspire Feat (3)
Inspire Magic (2) add +2 to caster level
Inspire competence
Suggestion
any others xD...

other form is with cleric and Hearfire Fanner for more magic
Irrelevant, and most of all: Not Allowed. See Quote at the bottom.


Assume that all I have access to is Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual completely, and only parts from Expanded Psionics Handbook (only non-manifester character options, such as feats and spells. And soulknife, but who would want to play that mess anyway), and Deities & Demigods (feats and spells only).
For future reference, if you don't feel like reading through the whole thread, at the very least: Read the first post -carefully- before replying.

While I listed only those books, I intentionally omitted books and other resources that aren't freely available to everyone (unlike those that can be found from SRD websites d20srd.org and dndsrd.net). I've been playing D&D since 2000-ish, having started with late 3.0 and getting the majority of my D&D experience with 3.5. If/when I would use a feat or an alternative class feature from outside SRD equivalent resources, I would say, hands down, that I'm more than capable of fitting them in myself. I don't need to be guided through all steps, held by the hand.

[Arkhios]

FWIW, and for those who might care (I doubt there are many) I finally settled on Barbarian 3/Bard 2, going fully into Dragon Disciple, with 4th level in barbarian at some point for another rage per day (I find that more rage is better for my ultimate goals; I'm a warrior first, a support only after then).

Mainly because I realized I'm never going to be a good spellcaster on my own right, even if I took more levels in bard. My charisma is just not that great, only 11, and I'd rather not rely on the chance of maybe getting a charisma boosting item, especially since our sorcerer would benefit more from it and thus has priority over me. At least I can add Dragon Disciple's extra spell slots to 1st level spells, and at least cha 11 is enough to be able to cast them.

For feats I have decided to drop the Harmonic Spell entirely. Instead, at 6th level I'll be taking Jack of All Trades (because we have a sore need of wider breadth of knowledge and even if I had more bard, my skill points are spread thin as is. Difference of 1 rank and no ranks is negligible, if I can use every skill untrained anyway).
I'll be taking Improved Two-Weapon at the first opportunity once I have the requisite BAB, which means at 9th level, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 15th level.

At 12th level, I'll take Reckless Offense. By then, I have a pretty good AC and more hit points than our druid will ever have (even with their CON 18), so I think can afford to lower my AC by 4 at some occasions (possibly at least when I'm not raging). I'm aiming to increase my strength score to 24 eventually, so with two-weapon fighting and reckless offense, my baseline attack modifiers start at +19, BEFORE I add any strength boosting items, rage, or magical weapons. That's pretty impressive in my opinion, especially because my BAB is +12 (as high as it would be for an equal level bard or rogue); as it stands, I'm expecting to reach at least 16th level in this campaign.