Who would win in a fight between Monk & Cleric? [Archive]

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 11:11 AM

Generally speaking, taking each to 20 with no MC, assuming standard array.

If you want to get into specific archetypes you can, but I'm just asking generally.

My friend was adamant about primary casters always wreck martials in 1v1 no matter what, even though I'm pretty sure a monk can stunlock a caster to death before he reacts and close whatever starting distance because of the crazy speed

I don't think 1v1 fights are a good way to compare classes (running them both through the same adventure is better). But since you ask...

My instincts say "monk can kite the cleric to death and just wait for spells to expire, so monk wins." But it depends on terrain, and also if you're playing by Tasha's rules, everything changes at level 9 when cleric can start summoning ranged attackers. On the other hand, if you're playing by Tasha's rules, Shadow Monk can cast Silence on the cleric AND Stunning Strike in the same round AND threaten an opportunity attack with Stunning Strike if the cleric tries to get out of the silence (without Disengaging), on top of Shadow Monk probably noticing the cleric before the cleric notices them due to Pass Without Trace (see: depends on terrain).

Levels 1-2: I'd give the edge to the cleric here because healing spells = more effective HP.
Levels 3-8: I'd give the edge to the monk here because Deflect Missiles wins archery duels, which this should be, and also because of Shadow Monk subclass abilities, and eventually Stunning Strike.
Levels 9-20: harder to say really because the cleric can potentially spam conjured Celestials all day to win through attrition at range, so the monk's best strategy flips from kiting to closing to short range, which allows cleric spells to come into play (as well as Shadow Monk spells like Darkness and Silence). It depends on the situation.

Overall I'd say that I'd rather play the monk in this scenario, but that might partly be because I expect the monk to have more interesting decisions like "where do I hide?" and "where do I look for the cleric hiding?" whereas the cleric is more like just "let's summon up another celestial and order them to go look for the monk while I hide." But I do think the monk has a bit of an edge overall.

nickl_2000

2021-02-01, 11:15 AM

That is true for most PvP fights.

However, for most Cleric vs Monk at lvl 20, the Cleric simply doesn't have what it takes to beat the Monk even if the Monk plays second, unless they have fantastical luck.

Cleric casts Holy Aura in round 1. Now Monk has disadvantage on all attacks and Cleric has advantage on all saving throws vs Stun. It's hard for a monk to recover from that.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 11:18 AM

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 11:22 AM

I think in this case the monk simply holds the range open and fires arrows at the cleric from 100 yards away for a minute, until Holy Aura expires.

Yeah. Especially since Holy Aura is Concentration, so that locks out a lot of the Cleric's better spells.

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 11:22 AM

I don't think 1v1 fights are a good way to compare classes (running them both through the same adventure is better).

100% agreed. PvP in particular isn't really relevant.

Levels 1-2: I'd give the edge to the cleric here because healing spells = more effective HP.

I mean, active self-heal isn't a good tactic against a Monk, at that level.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 11:24 AM

Cleric casts Holy Aura in round 1. Now Monk has disadvantage on all attacks and Cleric has advantage on all saving throws vs Stun. It's hard for a monk to recover from that.

Empty Body negates the disadvantage and even with advantage against the Stun, with 20 ki to burn it only takes one unlucky roll. The Cleric likely won't have a particularly impressive Con save unless they invest in feats and even then it's hard to rely on saving when you're rolling so often.

That said Stunning Strike is hardly a Monk's be all, end all.

I mean, active self-heal isn't a good tactic against a Monk, at that level.

At this level I'd give it to the Cleric, but just because Guiding Bolt is pretty likely to end the fight sharpish.

nickl_2000

2021-02-01, 11:29 AM

I think in this case the monk simply holds the range open and fires arrows at the cleric from 100 yards away for a minute, until Holy Aura expires.

Ya, there may be ways to get around it. However it's still rough.

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 11:32 AM

Cleric casts Holy Aura in round 1. Now Monk has disadvantage on all attacks and Cleric has advantage on all saving throws vs Stun. It's hard for a monk to recover from that.

I think in this case the monk simply holds the range open and fires arrows at the cleric from 100 yards away for a minute, until Holy Aura expires.

Even at melee range, if the Monk doesn't simply cancel the disadvantage by going invisible, that's still +11 to hit vs an AC that needs some specific choices to be above 21.

In the end, it comes down to the fact a Cleric can't protect themselves against *all* of the Monk's toolset at once.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 11:32 AM

I think in this case the monk simply holds the range open and fires arrows at the cleric from 100 yards away for a minute, until Holy Aura expires.

I may be misreading the spell, but why would the Monk switch to range because of it? A PC wouldn't be at risk of the blinding and it doesn't seem like the disadvantage is based on the attacker being in the aura.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 11:34 AM

I may be misreading the spell, but why would the Monk switch to range because of it? A PC wouldn't be at risk of the blinding and it doesn't seem like the disadvantage is based on the attacker being in the aura.

Because they can shoot from 320' away with a Shortbow, at disadvantage from two sources (long range and Holy Aura) which is irrelevant since disadvantage doesn't stack, and the Cleric has very limited options to handle foes at more than 300' away.

Amdy_vill

2021-02-01, 11:35 AM

Generally speaking, taking each to 20 with no MC, assuming standard array.

If you want to get into specific archetypes you can, but I'm just asking generally.

My friend was adamant about primary casters always wreck martials in 1v1 no matter what, even though I'm pretty sure a monk can stunlock a caster to death before he reacts and close whatever starting distance because of the crazy speed

I completely forgot to address stunlock. when we start talking outside of the general and move into ideas like strategy we would need more info than just class, we would need race, the battlefield, ore time, and so on, you friend is right in general full caster body every other class in the game but thats because they just have so many counter for everything. a generic monk if given a favor battlefield or prep time could stun lock a cleric easily but then we are giving the monk advetanges that we are not giving the cleric. a 1v1 is mostly going to be determined by who is lucky and more prepped for their opponent. when it comes to a more in-depth conversation on how 1v1 plays out you need more knowledge than just the class. now even with more knowledge, the full cast is still more likely but it goes from 9/10 to 3-7/100 depending on how the cleric prepared spells(no in the sense of prep for the fight but in the sense of normally required game prep) spell casting is just such a big power in the fight it swings what a generalize experience would be. when it comes to sunlocking in the specific their are too many moving parts for a monk to stun lock a cleric reliable and outside of open hand and astral self the damage output of the monk would likely no allow it to kill the cleric outright before they ran out fo ki, whether thro pure stun locking(20 turns of damge)or stunning nad dropping extra ki on more damage. this would then allow the cleric to use their exented variety to drop the monk, ie any of clerics damage lockout spells from hold person to banishment, clerics can then recover and re-engage the monk on a more favorable filled, slightly low, or equal health but still having spell slots where the monk is likely out if they got a full stunlock. but once agian all of this is complicated by all the other factor.

you should treat sweeping statements like that as just that sweeping statements, generalized and true but deeply complicated and in actual play, it completely depends on hundreds of unrelated rolls the happened before the fight, i have played an anit mage paladin build that had near max health and the ability to fly and in a pvp game every full caster whipped me even after shutting them down multiple times and them having roll some of the worst hp I have ever seen. by all mathematic right I should have won all but one of those fights but i lost because a of rolls despite having the dice gods on my side before the fight started and getting nearly max HP and my enemies having nearly minimum hp(the 2 had never rolled a hit die above 3)

J-H

2021-02-01, 11:42 AM

Monk. Empty Body + fast movement + 4 "Con DC 19 or stun" check opportunities per round, with attacks made with advantage.

nickl_2000

2021-02-01, 11:47 AM

Even at melee range, if the Monk doesn't simply cancel the disadvantage by going invisible, that's still +11 to hit vs an AC that needs some specific choices to be above 21.

In the end, it comes down to the fact a Cleric can't protect themselves against *all* of the Monk's toolset at once.

True Seeing is a non-concentration Cleric spell. That makes a monks invisibility a waste of Ki for the monk. Just going to prove that there are tools against each other in crazy ways and that a 1v1 PvP isn't want 5e was made for.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 11:47 AM

True Seeing is a non-concentration Cleric spell. That makes a monks invisibility a waste of Ki for the monk. Just going to prove that there are tools against each other in crazy ways and that a 1v1 PvP isn't want 5e was made for.

Agreed 100%. But it's still fun to muse about.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 11:49 AM

Because they can shoot from 320' away with a Shortbow, at disadvantage from two sources (long range and Holy Aura) which is irrelevant since disadvantage doesn't stack, and the Cleric has very limited options to handle foes at more than 300' away.

That's a good point, I guess I just didn't think it'd be more effective than empty body+straight attacks, especially since you'd lose out on Flurry and Martial Arts attacks.

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 11:51 AM

True Seeing is a non-concentration Cleric spell. That makes a monks invisibility a waste of Ki for the monk.

So the Cleric casts Holy Aura, then True Seeing?

Fair enough, but that's two rounds of getting pummeled without fighting back just to impose disadvantage on the opponent, and against a Monk I call that "dying".

I
you should treat sweeping statements like that as just that sweeping statements, generalized and true

While I 100% agree with you that to make an accurate judgment, one would need to have the subclasses/stats/races/environment/other factors, because a class doesn't function in a vacuum, I have to hard disagree on this.

Such a sweeping statement should be treated as generalized and false. Some casters can beat some martials, but "1 vs 1 the caster wins no matter what" is simply not true (and it can be disproven by just finding one case where it's not true, due to the "no matter what" part).

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 11:52 AM

If your god gates in an Empyrean on your behalf, it doesn't really matter if you get stunned for a turn or two. You can spend twenty seconds snoozing while a titan saves your bum. Just need to win that initiative roll :)

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 11:57 AM

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 12:09 PM

Now I want to see an Empyrean and a lvl 20 Monk fight 1 on 1.

Well on the plus side you're targeting the empyrean's second weakest save with stunning strike. He's got a measly +10 con save, so only slightly better than coinflip chance of not being stunned - though it might have advantage if stunning strike is classed as a magical effect. The monk class description implies it might be* but stunning strike itself says nothing regarding it being magical and crawford has said it's not intended to be (though this sorta contradicts his justification on dragon breaths not being magical effects).

*PHB 76:

Magic of Ki
Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes.

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 12:17 PM

but stunning strike itself says nothing regarding it being magical and crawford has said it's not intended to be (though this sorta contradicts his justification on dragon breaths not being magical effects).

Doesn't really contradict the justification, as the justification says that the ability itself has to indicate it's magic in one way or another.

KorvinStarmast

2021-02-01, 12:19 PM

I'm pretty sure a monk can stunlock a caster to death before he reacts and close whatever starting distance because of the crazy speed That was my gut response, but it depends on

Who wins initiative?

I would argue that whoever wins initiative wins the battle. I agree with that.

Now I want to see an Empyrean and a lvl 20 Monk fight 1 on 1. Heh, that would be an interesting fight.

Eldariel

2021-02-01, 12:26 PM

Empty Body negates the disadvantage and even with advantage against the Stun, with 20 ki to burn it only takes one unlucky roll. The Cleric likely won't have a particularly impressive Con save unless they invest in feats and even then it's hard to rely on saving when you're rolling so often.

It's hard to imagine a Cleric without Res: Con by 20. It's not amazing but they'll probably be looking at +9 or higher on Con-saves by 20 (assuming no magic items, which of course change the economy entirely). At advantage vs. a 20 Wis Monk's DC 19, they're looking at 84% success rate assuming Holy Aura and +9 to Con-saves. Assuming medium armor and shield, that's 19 AC and 16% fail chance. Monk gets 3 attacks per turn, 4 with flurry, at +11 so the total chance of stunning a Cleric per hit is 65% * 16% so 9% per hit. To reach 50% chance to land at least 1 stun the Monk needs to get 8 attacks or two full turns of attacking. So it's not impossible but it's certainly not trivial either. And that's just slightly over 50% chance; there's an almost 50% chance of the stun still not landing

@OP: Overall, this obviously depends on the Cleric as much as the Monk. For example...
- Arcana Cleric wins pretty much by default on 17+ since they get to abuse Wish/Simulacrum/Find Greater Steed/Contingency/etc. bull****. I think that's pretty trivially too much power for a Monk to easily overcome.
- Forge Cleric is actually pretty rough for a Monk to land hits on in melee; their 22 base AC puts the Monk at 50% chance of hitting even on level 20. If they also have pumped Con, they might be able withstand a fairly good amount of flurries.
- Trickery Cleric is a bit weird to run in this regard; 4 illusions can be completely gamebreaking or completely irrelevant but if we assume there's no way short of Truesight to tell them apart, they can do a fair bit of work though at the cost of Concentration. This would certainly be a different battle to most.

OTOH there's also the arena. Does the arena have room for kiting? Cleric is broadly favoured in close quarters while the Monk benefits of kiting room and chance to rely on Extra Attack'd ranged weapons. Does the arena have shadow? That matters a fair bit for a Shadow Monk. Does the arena have good hiding places? This is again one of those questions that's impossible to solve in a vacuum: there needs to be a set of parameters for the fight.

If we go full CAW, higher level magic does seriously favour the Cleric as ever. Just the ability to traverse planes and in general the strategic mobility of a Cleric makes this a completely unfair comparison. On lower levels Monk is better off. Level 8-11ish Monk might have the best chance since they have enough Ki to potentially put the Cleric down and the Cleric still doesn't have their best tools yet. But obviously this varies greatly between the subclasses and the parameters of the duel.

Amdy_vill

2021-02-01, 12:30 PM

So the Cleric casts Holy Aura, then True Seeing?

Fair enough, but that's two rounds of getting pummeled without fighting back just to impose disadvantage on the opponent, and against a Monk I call that "dying".

While I 100% agree with you that to make an accurate judgment, one would need to have the subclasses/stats/races/environment/other factors, because a class doesn't function in a vacuum, I have to hard disagree on this.

Such a sweeping statement should be treated as generalized and false. Some casters can beat some martials, but "1 vs 1 the caster wins no matter what" is simply not true (and it can be disproven by just finding one case where it's not true, due to the "no matter what" part).

you are correct and wrong here, you should not take every generalized statement as true inherently but given the history of magic user outclassing non-magic users and its continued presence in 5e as well as the massive versatility of magic users making any conversation about them just a here 50,00 way the wizard could do it and here the half dozen ways the monk can do it. the reason the generation of caster winning is true is not that casters will consistently win, it's that they have so many different options to win many of which they could have asses to at the same time. they have both the quantity and quality when it comes to solutions and when you talking in the general that wins against a few quality solutions, even if those few might be on average high quality than the thousands of almost as high-quality solutions. versatility does not win always, quality does not win always but when you have both and both in spades you can generalize it as a victory. now, this is definitely a concept that only matter in conversation because you can't apply it to reality because of the requirements of testing every option with every possible die roll. a textbook concept of analysis and not reality.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 12:32 PM

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 12:35 PM

Doesn't really contradict the justification, as the justification says that the ability itself has to indicate it's magic in one way or another.

Probably doesn't matter that much. With 3x legendary resistance, AC of 22 and a better than coinflip chance of saving naturally, it's got a very solid chance of making it through the monk's first turn unstunned even against a full flurry of stun attempts, at which point it can simply fly up and start pelting the monk with its 600' range bolts with impunity. I think only the UA dragon monk can give a monk flight (and even then only until the end of the monk's turn) the rest are stuck on the ground.

nickl_2000

2021-02-01, 12:42 PM

So the Cleric casts Holy Aura, then True Seeing?

Fair enough, but that's two rounds of getting pummeled without fighting back just to impose disadvantage on the opponent, and against a Monk I call that "dying".

True Sight lasts 1 hour, are they both just thrown in there and told go or do PCs have time to prepare beforehand? That makes a big difference in how things work.

Eldariel

2021-02-01, 12:52 PM

The Monk is likely to win Init, though, due to having better Dex.

So if they get first turn, then they're attacking without disadvantage and the Cleric lacks save advantage. So that's, assuming 21 AC, +11 to-hit, +9 Con saves, and DC 19 Stuns...

.55 chance of hitting
.45 chance of failing a Stun save
.2475 odds of both happening

With four attacks, that's over 2/3 odds of the Cleric getting Stunned. Which then grants the Monk advantage on attacks, increasing the odds of hitting to .7975, and the odds of any given hit landing a Stun to .3589. For .831 odds of the Cleric getting Stunned on any given round.

Assuming they start within 65'. Otherwise the Monk has to burn bonus action on closing in at which point they only get two attacks. Also while Monk is indeed probably favoured to win Initiative, Cleric can more easily afford e.g. Alert so it's not a given (Monk spends their ASIs on Wis and Dex improvements while Cleric is fine with just Wis for two more ASIs on other stuff one of which is very probably Res: Con). Further, while Monk may have an advantage on Initiative rolls, they probably don't have a massive advantage; 20 vs. 14 Dex would put it at +3 and assuming ties go to the higher modifier, this puts the Monk at 66% chance of victory. Which is significant, but OTOH even when they win they're looking at ~20-30% range of no stun and of course the chance of not spawning long enough. All of which would give the Cleric a turn.

Cleric has a lot of good tools if they do get a turn. Something like Plane Shift isn't entirely irrelevant as an offensive tool either; while a Monk is proficient in Cha-saves, they probably have no more than 10 Cha so their +6 is still a dog to save DC 19 and while Monk probably has 20 AC, Cleric has +11 spell attacks. If there's a source of advantage, it's 50% win (assuming sending the Monk to the Abyss or whatever counts as a win). Of course, that's not amazing but it's not entirely terrible either. Probably not the best option but it's something every Cleric has prepared and it has a very non-trivial chance of ending the fight outright.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 12:52 PM

Probably doesn't matter that much. With 3x legendary resistance, AC of 22 and a better than coinflip chance of saving naturally, it's got a very solid chance of making it through the monk's first turn unstunned even against a full flurry of stun attempts, at which point it can simply fly up and start pelting the monk with its 600' range bolts with impunity. I think only the UA dragon monk can give a monk flight (and even then only until the end of the monk's turn) the rest are stuck on the ground.

On the one hand, Elemonks can fly, and of course any monk can use a longbow. (Elf monks and some Kensei even have proficiency!) On the other hand, a longbow without proficiency yields pretty puny damage against an Empyrean.

On the gripping hand, the monk is fast enough to stay away from the Empyrean once it finally breaks contact. I think this one is a tactical draw, depending on terrain. Who wins strategically depends on the circumstances of the engagement, e.g. is the Empyrean protecting a cleric?

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 12:59 PM

How exactly is a Monk going to stun-lock a Cleric with 22+ AC (assuming only a +1 plate and +1 shield) and a 9 or 10 to Con saves (Res: Con)?

Plus, the Monk can stay as far away and "kite" all they want. The second the Cleric uses his Divine Intervention the Monk is toast.

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 01:11 PM

How exactly is a Monk going to stun-lock a Cleric with 22+ AC (assuming only a +1 plate and +1 shield) and a 9 or 10 to Con saves (Res: Con)?

By hitting the Cleric. 22 isn't much against a lvl 20 Monk. And neither is +10 to CON.

Plus, the Monk can stay as far away and "kite" all they want. The second the Cleric uses his Divine Intervention the Monk is toast.

To quote you, "how exactly"?

Eldariel

2021-02-01, 01:25 PM

Hmm, it also occurs to me that it takes a good while for the Monk to kill; assuming 1d12+5 damage, even with a successful stun, it's only 43ish DPR vs. AC 19 at Advantage. So the stun needs to be maintained for long enough to do at least 8+5*19+3*20ish = 163 damage, or for ~5 rounds. Given the ki consumption inherent to maintaining a stun on a decently high Con target, it's actually possible for the Monk to run out of Ki before that happens and if the Cleric has e.g. Heal or Mass Heal, it can undo most of that work if they do get to act. EA Monk builds and such can of course combat this to a degree and then there's various Kensei-builds and what-not but stock 4d12+20 damage isn't actually all that.

In short, the initial stun is somewhat likely unless the Cleric already has a defensive spell in place or get. However, I'm not sure landing a stun actually gives all that high a win percentage to the Monk. Stun is good if the Monk is built to do damage but default Monk kinda struggles there. If we take JNA's number of 83,1% chance of the Cleric being stunned on subsequent turns, getting 4x that (needed for a clean victory) is already under 50% (47,7% to be precise). And that's not accounting for the chance of landing the initial stun in the first place.

Far as True Seeing vs. Empty Body goes, both take an action so I don't see the action cost being overtly influential, though this of course taxes Cleric's high level slots.

In short, it's far more complex than it's made out to be here. And the specific subclasses matter a ton.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 01:38 PM

To quote you, "how exactly"?

Probably by saying "Yo, buddy. Can you stop this guy for me? Ktksbye" at which point the Monk has to make a Save against whatever Save DC the Cleric's god has

Yeah, the Monk can win. If they start out in melee, and the Cleric has no prep time, and there are no better magic items available, and they beat initiative, and they hit the Cleric, and the Cleric doesn't make their save.

There's a chance the Monk can win. There's also a chance a Monster Manual Goblin can win.

Eldariel

2021-02-01, 01:41 PM

Yeah, the Monk can win. If they start out in melee, and the Cleric has no prep time, and there are no better magic items available, and they beat initiative, and they hit the Cleric, and the Cleric doesn't make their save.

Even there the Monk needs to also be able to keep the target stunned long enough to win. It doesn't seem trivial to me for a Monk to win given their ki allotment even if they do accomplish that. At least there's a fairly significant percentual chance of them running out of gas before the Cleric dies (even more-so if the Cleric has magicks enhancing their longetivity).

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 01:57 PM

Even there the Monk needs to also be able to keep the target stunned long enough to win. It doesn't seem trivial to me for a Monk to win given their ki allotment even if they do accomplish that. At least there's a fairly significant percentual chance of them running out of gas before the Cleric dies (even more-so if the Cleric has magicks enhancing their longetivity).

With a 55% chance of hitting until the Cleric gets stunned, then a 79.75% chance once the Cleric gets stunned...

They deal 6.325 per non-Advantaged attack, and 9.171 per Advantaged attack.

If we assume they need to spend an average of three and a half Ki a round, one for Flurry, then two and a half for Stuns (two one round, three another) they can keep the Cleric stunned for five to six rounds.

Let's further assume that, on round one, they don't get Advantage till the fourth attack.

That is...
(3*6.325)+9.171=28.146 damage round one, and 4*9.171=36.684 for rounds two and on.

A Cleric with 16 Con has 163 HP. So that's...

163-28.146=134.854 HP left after round one. Divide that by 36.684, and you get about three and two thirds. So if the Cleric gets stunlocked and keeps failing saves, they're toast.

Edit: I forgot to factor in crits. Which I won't bother doing, because eh, lots of work, little gain. But do note that the numbers are SLIGHTLY off due to that.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 01:58 PM

How exactly is a Monk going to stun-lock a Cleric with 22+ AC (assuming only a +1 plate and +1 shield) and a 9 or 10 to Con saves (Res: Con)?

I rolled it out just now, starting with an already-stunned cleric (because that's the scenario for stun-lock) with AC 22 and +9 to Con saves, vs. a DC 19 monk with +11 to hit (d10+5 on a hit) and 19 ki remaining.

Round 1, 3 hits for 42 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 2, 3 hits for 35 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 3, 3 hits for 36 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 4, 3 hits for 32 damage, cleric is stunned again, 4 ki spent (cleric made first two saves).
Round 5, 2 hits for 17 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 6, 2 hits for 22 damage, cleric is stunned again, 3 ki spent (cleric made first save).
Round 7, 3 hits for 28 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 8 (no Flurry due to ki shortage), 3 hits for 29 damage, cleric is not stunned, 3 ki spent (cleric made all three saves).

Total damage while stun-locked: 241 HP.

I think I got improbably lucky on die rolls but still, clearly stun-lock for at least 3-5 rounds is not that unlikely once you already have advantage.

Waazraath

2021-02-01, 02:08 PM

It's hard to imagine a Cleric without Res: Con by 20.

Just on this one: I think it depends on whether the cleric is build for a 1 on 1. If it is a regular cleric build for a random campaign, I sincerely doubt it will have res (con), at the very least I'd say it isn't the default. Most clerics, especially the ones who want to be able to use a martial weapon somewhere in their carreer, will go for Warcaster instead. It's just as easy to imagine a cleric that starts with 14 con and somewhere will pick up warcaster, as one that starts with 15 and will somewhere in its carreer take res (con). But in a fight like this, it's a huge difference.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 02:15 PM

stun-lock for at least 3-5 rounds is not that unlikely once you already have advantage.

Agreed. My point is that a level 20 Cleric is very unlikely to get stunned in the first place unless the circumstances are stacked very high in favor of the Monk (all those "if"s I said)

kazaryu

2021-02-01, 02:20 PM

J-H

2021-02-01, 02:22 PM

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 02:26 PM

Also, with regards to Divine Intervention-I think it should be capped at 9th level spell equivalents. That's still a massive boost (Foresight is a game-winner for the Cleric) but stops silly stuff like "My god smites you down. Take 500d20 unresistable damage."

Overall, if PURPOSE-BUILT for this, I'd put it in favor of the Cleric. They have more ASI freedom and have much more potent nova capabilities than Monks do.
If just general-purpose PCs (taken from actual games, probably) I'd lean more in favor of the Monk. Clerics don't make very good one-on-one duelists, while Monks have Stunning Strike, which DOES make them very good one-on-one fighters.

Finally, to reiterate a point that was brought up earlier-D&D (any edition, really) is NOT built for PvP, especially not one-on-one PvP. So while this is fun to think about and theorize, it's pretty irrelevant to normal play.

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 02:37 PM

Also, with regards to Divine Intervention-I think it should be capped at 9th level spell equivalents. That's still a massive boost (Foresight is a game-winner for the Cleric) but stops silly stuff like "My god smites you down. Take 500d20 unresistable damage."

Gate is a 9th level spell, which was my assumption from the start for this situation. A concentration-less summon drastically shifts the favour into the cleric's direction, especially one that happens to be CR23.

In the end it all will come down to winning initiative (something in the monk's favour, normally, though if clerics can walk around precasting guidance obsessively it negates the advantage and makes it more coinflip).
If the monk wins initiative, and they're in range to flurry, they've got a mathematically decent chance of stunlocking the cleric's HP away (though if the cleric has precast things like Aid and Heroes Feast, perhaps not so much. 5+spell level HP, 2d10 HP might be enough to swing it the other direction).

If the cleric gets an action off the monk loses or is forced to retreat due to the power of Divine Intervention (or Etherealness->Divine Intervention if the cleric is low on health and concerned about dying before the Empyrean can do their thing).

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 02:45 PM

Don't forget subclass abilities like Quivering Palm (10d10 on a failed save) or other things. Crusher means if the monk crits, his next attacks are at advantage; Open Hand means he can knock the cleric prone, giving advantage on attack rolls...etc.

What if the monk (assuming proficient in Athletics) tries to grapple the cleric? Does that help much?

Grappling wouldn't really help here, the Monk needs those attacks for damage and the Cleric is unlikely to try to use regular movement if they want to get out of their foe's range.

Eldariel

2021-02-01, 02:50 PM

I rolled it out just now, starting with an already-stunned cleric (because that's the scenario for stun-lock) with AC 22 and +9 to Con saves, vs. a DC 19 monk with +11 to hit (d10+5 on a hit) and 19 ki remaining.

Round 1, 3 hits for 42 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 2, 3 hits for 35 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 3, 3 hits for 36 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 4, 3 hits for 32 damage, cleric is stunned again, 4 ki spent (cleric made first two saves).
Round 5, 2 hits for 17 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 6, 2 hits for 22 damage, cleric is stunned again, 3 ki spent (cleric made first save).
Round 7, 3 hits for 28 damage, cleric is stunned again, 2 ki spent.
Round 8 (no Flurry due to ki shortage), 3 hits for 29 damage, cleric is not stunned, 3 ki spent (cleric made all three saves).

Total damage while stun-locked: 241 HP.

I think I got improbably lucky on die rolls but still, clearly stun-lock for at least 3-5 rounds is not that unlikely once you already have advantage.

Can you give results for 1000 repetitions or something? I don't have the time to solve it mathematically right now even though all considered this is a rather simple equation, and it'd be useful to get a probability distribution for the various outcomes. I'm thinking the Monk has a decent chance of closing it out but that it's nowhere near 100%. Also, if the Cleric doesn't start stunned we're talking about further ki expenditure, which does reduce the amount of ki available.

Just on this one: I think it depends on whether the cleric is build for a 1 on 1. If it is a regular cleric build for a random campaign, I sincerely doubt it will have res (con), at the very least I'd say it isn't the default. Most clerics, especially the ones who want to be able to use a martial weapon somewhere in their carreer, will go for Warcaster instead. It's just as easy to imagine a cleric that starts with 14 con and somewhere will pick up warcaster, as one that starts with 15 and will somewhere in its carreer take res (con). But in a fight like this, it's a huge difference.

I'd agree if this were like level 8-12 but on level 20? They should certainly have Res: Con, not only to guarantee success on the basic DC10 Concentration check but also to ensure that they have a shot against the somewhat regular DC20-checks you begin rolling around these points with ancient dragon breaths and big nukes and what-not.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 03:04 PM

Can you give results for 1000 repetitions or something? I don't have the time to solve it mathematically right now even though all considered this is a rather simple equation, and it'd be useful to get a probability distribution for the various outcomes. I'm thinking the Monk has a decent chance of closing it out but that it's nowhere near 100%. Also, if the Cleric doesn't start stunned we're talking about further ki expenditure, which does reduce the amount of ki available.

Already done - - that's why his ki was reduced from 20 to 19, to account for the initial stun.

Sorry, I don't have time to write a Monte Carlo sum at the moment, busy with another project. I rolled that one out manually.

J-H

2021-02-01, 03:04 PM

As a reminder on Divine Intervention:

The GM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric domain spell would be appropriate.

Cleric domain spells cap out at 5th level spells. A free, no-concentration "Here's a CR 23 pet" is not within the power level expected or described within the class feature description. This is a no-magic items RAW discussion, so the Empyrean doesn't belong.

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 03:10 PM

As a reminder on Divine Intervention:

Cleric domain spells cap out at 5th level spells. A free, no-concentration "Here's a CR 23 pet" is not within the power level expected or described within the class feature description. This is a no-magic items RAW discussion, so the Empyrean doesn't belong.

I don't know if you deliberately or accidentally misquoted it, but here's the ACTUAL description, in full.

Divine Intervention

Beginning at 10th level, you can call on your deity to intervene on your behalf when your need is great.

Imploring your deity's aid requires you to use your action. Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your Cleric level, your deity intervenes. The DM chooses the Nature of the intervention; the Effect of any Cleric spell or Cleric domain spell would be appropriate. If your deity intervenes, you can't use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a Long Rest.

At 20th level, your call for intervention succeeds automatically, no roll required.

With my emphasis. Picking a 9th level spell is 100% appropriate. Gate is a 9th level spell. Gate can summon an empyrean who is inclined to assist you since they work for your god, who is casting it. It's being requested by the god's greatest champion and has a 7 day cooldown, it's meant to be impressive.

An empyrean is just an example though. A planetar (CR16) would be sufficient as well to even the scales, if you prefer.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 03:11 PM

Unoriginal

2021-02-01, 03:16 PM

What source are you consulting? I'mAFB but D&D Beyond says,

"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."

Gate is a cleric spell. However, since it's fundamentally just a transportation spell, not a binding spell, I don't think it's kosher to us make assumptions about it in a 1v1 fight, any more than it's kosher to say the monk teleports away, hides, and then uses Astral Projection to befriend a bunch of Githyankis and bring them back to kill the cleric. It's outside the scope of the thought experiment (and shows why 1v1 duels are a silly way to measure classes).

As a DM I must say I would absolutely approve of a Monk Astral Projecting themselves and then Han Solo'ing the battle with the BBEG by bringing on a whole bunch of befriended Githyanki.

J-H

2021-02-01, 03:18 PM

Huh. I guess the 5e SRD is wrong.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 04:08 PM

As a DM I must say I would absolutely approve of a Monk Astral Projecting themselves and then Han Solo'ing the battle with the BBEG by bringing on a whole bunch of befriended Githyanki.

Me too. : ) Befriending the Githyanki in the first place will be an adventure of its own, probably involving at least one 1v1 duel to gain status among them. It would be a fun solo adventure.

Of course, befriending the Githyanki and leading them in a raid on the Prime Material plane naturally has consequences. E.g. what if they want to torture the cleric to death? What if they don't want to leave the Prime afterwards? What if word of the alliance gets out and the monk becomes a target for githzerai fanatics as well as the dead(?) cleric's allies? My job as a DM is to see and apply the unintended consequences of player decisions, whenever it seems like they would be interesting.

MrCharlie

2021-02-01, 04:45 PM

It's basically rocket tag favoring the monk. First the monk has (generally) higher initiative, meaning they are more likely to go first and start the stunlock train. Second, the monk is more likely to have high enough saves to resist the cleric, but the cleric is unlikely to be able to resist stunning strike.

For all the versatility of the cleric having a dozen ways to kill the monk while the monk has one way to kill the cleric, none of the clerics tools will bypass the monks protections while CON is a pretty poor cleric ability (as in, they lack proficiency in saves, so they have at best a +3-5 on a DC 19 save) While the cleric could toss in resilient CON it's not that common of a move (although it should be, really). In contrast, the clerics save or lose spells mostly target WIS, and even then most enable multiple saves. The cleric does have other options which can help turn it into an endurance fight, but generally all still require a save and the monk can always attempt one with a good chance of success. I suppose a couple spells like Gate can change the game even more, but again, the cleric needs to win initiative, and very few spells actually auto-win even if they make the monks job harder.

(Oh, and if the cleric gets one off...The monk should just use that 50+ per round move speed and leave. Wait for the clerics summoned ally to get bored.)

One thing to note for everyone crunching the math is that the monk has no incentive to flurry in a round where the stun the cleric on the first two hits, meaning that the monk can save a lot of ki by making their normal attacks first and seeing if those trigger a stun. It takes more rounds for the cleric to die (and thus more ki through that), but the extra ki for flurry is wasteful.

The one way we can win it as a cleric is to find a way to pick up the two monk killer spells then win initiative and cast one, but clerics don't get either of them so it's a moot point-and no domain gets them either. I am, of course, talking about Fire Shield and (upcast) Armor of Agathys. The monks low damage per hit (around 10) and need to hit in melee (to stun) means that if you can somehow get both of these non-concentration spells up the monk is almost guaranteed to kill themselves trying to get through them. Hell, Armor of Agathys alone can be expected to trigger five times (45 hp each, -1d10+5 each round) and do 225 damage unless the monk can bypass it with an archetype, and if the monk is doing that you have more rounds to try to get them to fail a save. Fire shield almost does as much damage as a monks unarmed strikes. It's just that single classes clerics have zero means to get either of them. (And, again, the monk can just leave and come back, while the cleric probably can't catch the monk).

Edit: Ignoring dragonmarked houses, because that's setting specific. If anyone knows another way....

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 04:53 PM

What are the monk main-class (not subclass) solutions to flight?

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 04:55 PM

Edit: Ignoring dragonmarked houses, because that's setting specific. If anyone knows another way....

Arcana clerics could blow their Wish on it if they really wanted to.

They'd probably be better off just forcecaging him instead though.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-01, 04:58 PM

Hmm...PvP is just not a realistic scenario...unless The Gamesters of Triskelion are involved...in which case "50 quatloos on the monk".
If the thought experiment is : 20th Level Monk vs 20th level: "Street Fighter Arcade style" then advantage goes to the monk. The monk excels at adapting to scenarios that involve unexpected combat.

The 5e Cleric class is a "nest builder class". So if the PvP scenario is instead that the Monk and Cleric have sworn blood oaths to kill each other....then advantage cleric.

A Cleric has better intelligence gathering. A Gate spell can bring the Monk to the Cleric. The cleric can have Glyphs of Warding 'loaded' with various Bestow Curse spells, and a Symbol spell ready to activate.

The cleric can easily, have a room full of uncontrolled undead. The cleric, especially a cleric with access to TCoE, likely has an Ally that has been Planar Bound.

In a Street Fighter scenario, using Word of Recall is not a bad 1st option for a cleric. Brave Sir Robin...is Alive!

One of my characters is a Dexterity focused Cleric of Trickery with the Dragonmark of Shadow. Creating Dupplicates, turning Invisible, or appearing to be anything other than myself is sorta my Jam.

A monk can be invisible for up to 4 minutes with Empty Body. My cleric can easily wait the monk out....between the Racial Invisibility spell, the Channel Divinity Invisibility, Mislead or Greater Invisibility (via the Dragonmark)....I'm very good at Hide and Seek.

Once hidden, I'm going to attempt to get a Bestow Curse Upcast to at least 5th level to land, ideally to bestow Disadvantage on Wisdom Saves.
If this works, then I am using the Polymorph spell to turn the monk into a horse.

A horse can move at full gallop for about 2 miles before exhaustion sets in. A horse at full gallop moves approximately 28 MPH. It won't take long to have the Horsey/Monk garner 5 levels of Exhaustion.

Now the monk, can't move, has Disadvantage on all ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws, and has half of their Hit Point Maximum. Do some damage, then Divine Word...and be back home in time for supper.🍷🥙🍱

(Alternate option is to send Horsey Monk through a Gate to something nasty)

Realistically, this is going to require some luck. Blink, Mirror Image, and a Major Image Upcast to 6th level will hopefully buy me some time, and help foil ranged monk shenanigans.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 05:04 PM

What are the monk main-class (not subclass) solutions to flight?

Shortbows or nonproficient longbows.

Lokishade

2021-02-01, 05:05 PM

Cleric would win a duel hands down.

While the Monk has tons of tools in his arsenal, and is generaly geared towards mage slaying, the Cleric's secondary stat is usually Constitution, giving him the health needed to outlast a Monk burning all his ki points in a flurry of Stunning Strikes, most of which will miss.

Also, the Cleric is a full caster. Access to 9th level spells is no joke. The monk could very well stun lock for massive damage while also landing a quivering palm, but it won't matter when the Cleric just hits the reset button on his health.

And as if the wide variety of spells with a total of 21 different slots to cast from wasn't enough, Divine Intervention works 100% of the time at level 20. It could generate anything, like a 9th level Spirit Guardians that remains active as long as the Monk has hostile intents toward the Cleric. If that's seems too unfair, how about a second health reset? Or a free Solar Buddy? There are many powerful spells in the arsenal of a Cleric.

IMO, the Cleric is even more busted than the Wizard, but is usually restrained by the RP element of having a god to answer to.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 05:20 PM

I'd favor the monk heavily, despite the Cleric's strength in spellcasting I find it difficult to believe that they could functionally incapacitate the Monk long enough to prevent what would likely be a swift death.

I'll also second the mention that the Cleric would need to be purpose built to defeat this Monk (who in turn is fighting this Cleric with the same deadly arsenal and tools they fight everything with) which falls right into the Gandalf of the White Room wizard argument we see in every hypothetical that involves a 20th level caster.

Would it be safe to assume that Arcana Cleric and Open Hand Monk are the favored options?

J-H

2021-02-01, 05:25 PM

What are the monk main-class (not subclass) solutions to flight?

Depends on the terrain. If we're in a dungeon or confined environment, and the cleric is near a wall and less than ~60' up, the monk may be able to run straight up a wall (move + step of wind = 100' movement +-), then long jump (horizontal) out from the wall to grab the cleric. At that point, it's a grapple and the monk could start making attacks on following rounds.

Not a great answer...but is an answer to flight.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-01, 05:28 PM

Cleric would win a duel hands down..
A duel where one can't use their hands, probably favors the monk🃏
Quivering Palm only costs 3 Ki points.
Touch of the Long Death can cost up to 10 Ki points, but does half damage on a save.

That is before considering the TCoE Shadow Monk dropping a Silence spell.

I'm going off memory, but cleric spells are heavy on Wisdom and Dexterity Saving Throws. Banishment may buy one some time, but it likely won't solve the problem.

I would need to roll some duel simulations, but I'm not confident the cleric would always win the duel.

I also don't think a cleric has to be custom built to defeat the monk.
Death Ward, previously Planar Bound friends, Sanctuary, etc are universal Clerical activities. Some domains will do better than others, but the cleric spell list has some options, available to all clerics.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 05:32 PM

Cleric domain spells cap out at 5th level spells.

I don't know if you deliberately or accidentally misquoted it, but here's the ACTUAL description, in full.

To add to that, Arcana Clerics can make any Wizard spell of 6th+ level a Domain spell. So any Wizard spell of 6th+ level can be used through Divine Intervention by any Cleric.

Nothing in DI's description says that the spell you choose must be from the the Domain you personally chose, so choosing Wish from a random Arcana Cleric somewhere is perfectly valid.

A Lv 20 Cleric can abuse Wish and True Polymorph as well as any Wizard, they just do it far more slowly (requiring 1 week between castings instead of 1 day)

Witty Username

2021-02-01, 05:42 PM

I think how this plays out depends a lot on the subclass.
Way of the open hand only needs to provoke one failed con save to win with quivering palm. I think they may have the best shot of winning because of that. Even with death ward is applicable (quivering palm is neither dealing damage or killing out right I don't think it applies by RAW), being reduced to 1 hp isn't going to end well. Hard countered by Trickery cleric, polymorph on self into a Mammoth or something can resist quivering palm once. Other than open hand, Twilight is probably unfair with the amount of concentration free temp HP they get.

Stunning strike is good in this case as cleric isn't proficient in con normally, resilient constitution may make it less useful. It will drop any concentration effects on the cleric, I think that it may have a bunching problem come up since you need to keep getting successful stuns over several rounds. A monk just standing there occasionally breathing in the spirit guardians when the stuns lift may end up with a problem.

Terrain that is obstructive probably generally favors the cleric, since movement favors the monk. a choke point or defensible position that narrows the monks approach may allow for the cleric to use spells to keep them out of melee range. Shadow monk is probably the best to deal with this because of the teleport option.

The monk can likely always escape if it comes to that. ki comes back on a short rest so if the challenge allows an hour lull the monk can come back with a full magazine, while the cleric will loose spell slots over the fight. On the other hand a plane shift out gives similar for the cleric.

Awareness I think is a wash, clerics and monk both have decent perception, monk has empty body, cleric has divination effects, initiative slightly favors the monk
I think terrain is the deciding factor, an open environment the monk will win, a closed environment the cleric can leverage its spells to keep the monk at bay.
If the objective is kill the monk can extend it out until a favorable luck moment or the cleric is out of spells, but the cleric has higher damage effects that may stress the monks HP. If the objective is defend a point, keep an object safe, or something involving time pressure the monk looses out on this option

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 05:44 PM

Nothing in DI's description says that the spell you choose must be from the the Domain you personally chose, so choosing Wish from a random Arcana Cleric somewhere is perfectly valid.

Nothing in DI's description says that you get to choose the spell at all, if we're going to be arguing by this logic.

That's the primary issue with choosing DI as the crux of the argument in favor of the Cleric, it's entirely up to the DM. It's a random factor that you can't safely assume "wins" against the Monk.

x3n0n

2021-02-01, 05:51 PM

Already done - - that's why his ki was reduced from 20 to 19, to account for the initial stun.

Sorry, I don't have time to write a Monte Carlo sum at the moment, busy with another project. I rolled that one out manually.

I decided this was fun enough to justify it.

Assumptions:
* your original stats (Monk THB and ki DC of +11 and 19, Cleric AC and Con-save bonus of 22 and +9),
* the Cleric is *not* initially stunned,
* implicitly, the Monk wins initiative,
* the Monk only uses Flurry of Blows if the first two attacks don't stun, and
* the simulation ends as soon as the Cleric is not stunned at the end of the Monk's turn.

Among 1000 trials:
* there were 358 failures to stun in the whole first round, damage ranging from 0 to 77 (35.8 percent failures to stun),
* another 125 failures to stun in the second round, damage from 19 up to 130 (125/642 = 19.4 percent failures from a stunned state),
* another 83 failures to stun in the third round, damage between 18 and 175 (83/517 = 16 percent failures),
* 79 failures to stun in the fourth round, damage 92 to 215 (79/434 = 18.2 percent failures),
* 72 failures in the fifth round, damage 129 to 254 (72/355 = 20 percent failures),
* 57 failures in the sixth round, damage 174 to 337 (57/283 = 20 percent failures), and (unsurprisingly) our first times running out of ki

For the remaining 226 trials, damage was at least 230, and generally much higher (max: 627 over 16 rounds).

Assuming 163 HP (+3 Con, no Tough, Hill Dwarves, Death Ward, Half Orc, etc), the Cleric survived the first round of stunlock 61 percent of the time.

Perl script for one simulation available on request. Monk parameters seem pretty fixed (hard to imagine not having +5 attack stat and d10 weapon for this scenario), but tweaking Cleric's AC or Con (or removing Res: Con) matters a LOT. (For example, removing Res: Con took first-round failures down to 14.7 percent, and keeping Res:Con but only +2 Con took first-round failures down to an even 30 percent).

Edit: damage numbers are all wrong (stun numbers are all fine). Post with some damage-related updates much later in the thread.

DevilMcam

2021-02-01, 05:54 PM

In a proper "Duel", meaning no preparation and whoever leaves the field is considered forfeit, I'd bet on the monk.
Any other circumstances doesn't matter since whoever get the drop on the other one can be considered to have setup victory beforehand.

I'd be happy to put that theory to the test as well.

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 06:08 PM

Nothing in DI's description says that you get to choose the spell at all, if we're going to be arguing by this logic.

That's the primary issue with choosing DI as the crux of the argument in favor of the Cleric, it's entirely up to the DM. It's a random factor that you can't safely assume "wins" against the Monk.

You describe the type assistance you seek, per DI's description. You don't just go "help plz".

Clerics of 20th level can(/should) be quite familiar with their god's servants, they've got plenty of spells to make that happen on their way to 20th. If a DM no-goes "I need help from [Planetar/Empyrean's Name] in this fight" via divine intervention, when that satisfies the "equal to a cleric spell" (either Gate or Planar Ally as you like) suggested power level in the text, then I'm gonna call that hostile DMing in favour of the monk.

This is the cleric 20th level capstone and has a week-long cooldown. It's not meant to be weak, and if you stick to the suggested power level ("cleric spell or domain spell") then the DM should be okaying it every time.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 06:14 PM

Nothing in DI's description says that you get to choose the spell at all, if we're going to be arguing by this logic.

That's the primary issue with choosing DI as the crux of the argument in favor of the Cleric, it's entirely up to the DM. It's a random factor that you can't safely assume "wins" against the Monk.

True, but it does allow you to simulate spells. If you use DI and say "create a copy of me to help me fight infidels". That's a perfectly valid use of DI because Simulacrum is a perfectly valid effect. You may not get an actual Simulacrum, but you'll get something close enough. Same thing goes for "summon a powerful angel to help me in this battle" and you got yourself a Planetar or whatever

You can argue all you want that it's up to the DM, but unless the DM is purposefully screwing the Cleric by role-playing the Cleric's deity as a complete moron who likes to screw over their most powerful and devoted follower for no reason, then you should get a decent enough effect every time.

In a proper "Duel", meaning no preparation

Why would a "proper duel" not involve preparation? :smallconfused:

Was it considered cheating if in the Old West someone prepared for a duel by buying bullets? Or prepared by loading said bullets into their gun?

Does that mean the Cleric doesn't even get to prepare spells? Or don armor?

This is a terrible definition of what a proper duel consists of.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 06:21 PM

You describe the type assistance you seek, per DI's description. You don't just go "help plz".

Clerics of 20th level can(/should) be quite familiar with their god's servants, they've got plenty of spells to make that happen on their way to 20th. If a DM no-goes "I need help from [Planetar/Empyrean's Name] in this fight" via divine intervention, when that satisfies the "equal to a cleric spell" (either Gate or Planar Ally as you like) suggested power level in the text, then I'm gonna call that hostile DMing in favour of the monk.

This is the cleric 20th level capstone and has a week-long cooldown. It's not meant to be weak, and if you stick to the suggested power level ("cleric spell or domain spell") then the DM should be okaying it every time.

The phrasing of heavyfuel suggests that not only are you choosing the spell but also the targets and/or effects it should have.

I'm not saying the effect should be weak or that you can't request something directly favorable, but Divine Intervention isn't Wish, it's not your incredible power that comes out of the result here.

A request for aid would also vary depending on the god I feel. DI is definitely a point in the Cleric's favor but I don't feel like it can be relied on as the best and only necessary "I win" button.

Why would a "proper duel" not involve preparation? :smallconfused:

Was it considered cheating if in the Old West someone prepared for a duel by buying bullets? Or prepared by loading said bullets into their gun?
If you're offering, I can guarantee the Monk would win in a duel where neither side is "prepared". They both start in nothing but their underwear. Monk Wins.

Seriously, you know perfectly well what's being implied by "no preperation" here. They're very obviously prepared for a fight but to suggest that a Cleric is as paranoid as a Wizard and lives in a demiplane primed with Glyph of Warding buffs is definitely against the spirit of the hypothetical here.

Or to phrase it plainly, the Cleric and Monk should be ready for a fight, not specifically this one.

MrStabby

2021-02-01, 06:24 PM

Just on this one: I think it depends on whether the cleric is build for a 1 on 1. If it is a regular cleric build for a random campaign, I sincerely doubt it will have res (con), at the very least I'd say it isn't the default. Most clerics, especially the ones who want to be able to use a martial weapon somewhere in their carreer, will go for Warcaster instead. It's just as easy to imagine a cleric that starts with 14 con and somewhere will pick up warcaster, as one that starts with 15 and will somewhere in its carreer take res (con). But in a fight like this, it's a huge difference.

I have never known any promary caster (apart from one Bladelock) get to even close to level 20 without picking up resilient CON. It might just be my tables, but this is considered a pretty good feat for casters.

Even failing that there are other common options like lucky that get picked up along the way.

What source are you consulting? I'mAFB but D&D Beyond says,

"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."

Gate is a cleric spell. However, since it's fundamentally just a transportation spell, not a binding spell, I don't think it's kosher to us make assumptions about it in a 1v1 fight, any more than it's kosher to say the monk teleports away, hides, and then uses Astral Projection to befriend a bunch of Githyankis and bring them back to kill the cleric. It's outside the scope of the thought experiment (and shows why 1v1 duels are a silly way to measure classes).

I am not sure where I stand on this... you are a level 20 cleric. You are in the service of the divine. Realistically, how likely is it you made it this far without earning a few favours with outsiders? Even if you are not owed anything, pick a creature aligned with your god - their cleric is being attacked - there is a good chance they would want to step in. On the other hand it is a very open ability which makes it pretty hard to decide so should mabe be discounted. On my (vedalken) third hand, you have a class with a pretty decent capstone and it seems pretty unfair to just ignore what is arguably their most powerful ability because it is hard.

And yeah, as others have said, it really depends on the setup. If the monk is standing next to the cleric, just flips out and decides to try and kill him with no warning then yeah, advantage monk. You selected a scenario where most of the great cleric divination spells and abilities are useless. All their animate deads and conjure celestials haven't been cast and so on. It IS possible to select a scenario where one side or another will have an advantage.

Then again, characters need to sleep. Is the cleric going to spend every night in full plate? Should we assume that the monk is not attacking at night?

On balance I think I do favour the monk though in a fight with no prep (even if your typical adventuring day would warrent some of this anyway). You might need to draw out some spell slots, come back after a short rest a couple of times then have a night-time ambush on a depleted cleric but I think the odds are in your favour. Just stay close enough to the cleric to go and interrupt them if they are casting something like planar binding.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 06:31 PM

If you're offering, I can guarantee the Monk would win in a duel where neither side is "prepared". They both start in nothing but their underwear. Monk Wins.

We actually agree on something :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, you know perfectly well what's being implied by "no preperation" here. They're very obviously prepared for a fight but to suggest that a Cleric is as paranoid as a Wizard and lives in a demiplane primed with Glyph of Warding buffs is definitely against the spirit of the hypothetical here.

Or to phrase it plainly, the Cleric and Monk should be ready for a fight, not specifically this one.

Asking for a Simulacrum every now and then isn't being paranoid, and since they last forever (if you just keep them in storage) then it should be fine to assume the Cleric has one. Same goes for their small army of CR 9 creatures they've gathered over the years thanks to True Polymorph. I'm sure there's at least one CR 9 creature that would be grateful for being given life to the point where they might fight to help this person. Maybe some Dragons.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 06:41 PM

Asking for a Simulacrum every now and then isn't being paranoid, and since they last forever (if you just keep them in storage) then it should be fine to assume the Cleric has one. Same goes for their small army of CR 9 creatures they've gathered over the years thanks to True Polymorph. I'm sure there's at least one CR 9 creature that would be grateful for being given life to the point where they might fight to help this person. Maybe some Dragons.

I think you and I have different definitions of what is "fine to assume" and "not being paranoid".

You're one step from (and in some ways, steps beyond) being God Powered Manshoon here.

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 06:44 PM

On balance I think I do favour the monk though in a fight with no prep (even if your typical adventuring day would warrent some of this anyway). You might need to draw out some spell slots, come back after a short rest a couple of times then have a night-time ambush on a depleted cleric but I think the odds are in your favour. Just stay close enough to the cleric to go and interrupt them if they are casting something like planar binding.

A cleric who's been getting harassed all day by a monk who won't leave them alone will probably be saving a slot to plane shifting to their god's domain for a nap instead of doing it in a tent. With only a single action cost the monk's got no chance of stopping them from doing so assuming the cleric isn't currently stunned.

I think you and I have different definitions of what is "fine to assume" and "not being paranoid".

You're one step from (and in some ways, steps beyond) being God Powered Manshoon here.

Personally I think guidance-to-initiative is a "fine to assume" thing for an adventuring cleric, which turns it into more of a coinflip than clear monk advantage (4.5 vs. 5). There's other concentration spells they could have, but a cantrip seems like a fair assumption.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 06:49 PM

I think you and I have different definitions of what is "fine to assume" and "not being paranoid".

You're one step from (and in some ways, steps beyond) being God Powered Manshoon here.

And that's my point. I was obviously exagerating what "no prep" meant when I said "no armor and no spells". But is an immortal simulacrum you keep around just in case too much prep? I think one single simulacrum definitely isn't.

What about CR 9 creatures? A "small army" - as I put - is probably too much. But what if it's a handful of those? A few CR 9 Silver Dragons you keep around to give you hand whenever you might need to reach a high place or just to keep you company. Is that being paranoid?

Even a single Silver Dragon drastically changes the playing field. The Dragon can carry the Cleric away from the Monk. No more stun locks for you.

I've said before that I don't allow infinite Guidance in my games because the idea of dropping everything and muttering words and making gestures for 5 seconds every single minute is insane. That's why I haven't mentioned Guidance. I think Guidance is too much prep.

But when we're talking about thinkgs that last effectively forever (Simulacrum and TPM), why not have them?

MrCharlie

2021-02-01, 06:51 PM

What are the monk main-class (not subclass) solutions to flight?
60 foot per round movement speed. Unless it's a fly spell through a subclass or a truly obscene fly speed, that's enough to simply leave and come back once the flight duration ends, or wall climb above the cleric and then stunning strike them, disrupting fly.

Arcana clerics could blow their Wish on it if they really wanted to.

They'd probably be better off just forcecaging him instead though.
True for the first part, although an eight level armor is skating the level where you actually win the fight if the monk goes for a stun-lock.

As for forcecage it's a good move, but the monk has a little counterplay. It makes it easier, but the monk can still shoot a bow at you if you leave the forcecage open enough to hit them. I'm sure the cleric would win eventually in such a fight, but the monk isn't helpless. A couple archetypes can theoretically escape-Shadows and elements for example, although elements needs the cage to have bars (but if it's a box, the monk just thanks the cleric and takes a short rest, so...) It's at least as good at armor at avoiding melee though, which is where the cleric certainly loses without a pretty absurd CON save.

I thought at first that the monk could also just astral project out and rely on making the charisma save (+5 with a re-roll isn't so unlikely) but on further reading it does not appear the monk gets to cast astral projection any faster than normal, which is a shame.

This is ignoring the possibility the monk can yogi their way out of a 1/2 inch bar because forcecage almost certainly makes it implicitly impossible without magic and nothing in the monks sheet gives them the magical ability to do so, but I guess someone could argue that approach as well.

It's certainly one of the more likely one-cast win spells though. Wall of force is similar but I doubt you could make the wall in such a way you could cast into it without the monk being able to leave or use the walls to block LOS.

(And I am outright ignoring the possibilities that you can cast spells straight through a wall of force or box forcecage unless a spell pretty explicitly works).

To add to that, Arcana Clerics can make any Wizard spell of 6th+ level a Domain spell. So any Wizard spell of 6th+ level can be used through Divine Intervention by any Cleric.

Nothing in DI's description says that the spell you choose must be from the the Domain you personally chose, so choosing Wish from a random Arcana Cleric somewhere is perfectly valid.

A Lv 20 Cleric can abuse Wish and True Polymorph as well as any Wizard, they just do it far more slowly (requiring 1 week between castings instead of 1 day)
I can't remember where this came up, maybe in relation to Eberron's dragonmarked houses, but I'm pretty sure there is sage advice that basically says that this logic is invalid. If a features puts something on your class spell list it only applies to your, it has to specifically be on your list to count as a "X list spell" generically. Otherwise the Dragonmarked houses make every spell on their list into cleric spells for the purpose of DI as well.

Specifically, when it says "Your domain list" this means it's not "every arcana clerics domain list". Hence, DI can do that for a specific arcana clerics spells and no one else's.

(I may be wrong on the sage advice, but I think the basic reading of the text still implies that).

It's all moot because it does not change the actual math, which is stunlock if you lose initiative and a generally lower initiative, except that you can create a scenario where the cleric is fighting alongside their silver dragon brood or something (which is no longer a duel, and you might as well say the monk has an army of devils who hate this silver dragon making cleric).

I suppose you could wish for resistance to bludgeoning damage to prolong how long it takes the monk to kill you, but unless we make generous assumptions regarding wish trains and resistance to all weapon damage types the monk is liable to have a backup weapon to bypass it and still deliver stunning strike, meaning it just mildly prolongs the inevitable.

At some point the cleric might actually be able to survive long enough though, and I'd like to see the math of an arcana cleric with Aid, Death Ward, a 16-20 CON, and/or resistance to bludgeoning versus a monks best stunlock, but at that point the math is actually mildly complicated and I can't be arsed myself.

Also: In general while there are solutions where the cleric has non-concentration allies that the monk can't just disrupt by stunning them, most clerics don't run around with enough summoned firepower to outrace a monk stunlocking them. Those that do basically break the implicit rules are aren't really fighting a duel anymore.

And in general every cleric tactic needs to have a way to avoid the simplest monk solution, which is to dash, step of the wind, and move 200 feet away each round until they are sufficiently far away and/or hidden to short rest, then come back once the spell has ended or the clerics giant friend has grown bored and wandered off. Both classes can theoretically reach each other even through planar travel, but the monk has a significant tactical speed advantage which can put a wrench in a lot of these tactics.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 06:57 PM

How much prep is too much prep is my point

The reasonable (in terms of the hypothetical) answer is probably "you are whisked away to an unknown location shortly after you wake, dressed and ready for a day of adventuring. There is a single figure dressed in flowing robes across from you in what you assume is an endless expansive void, seemingly in the middle of his morning meditation. You are in the middle of your first of 5 morning buff spells. Before you can complete it, a booming voice from the void beyond interrupts your focus and exclaims that you must fight the figure across from you to the death or be trapped for all eternity.

You lock eyes with the figure across from you and before you can blink he's advancing rapidly towards you, roll initiative."

I say this because if you assume that it's reasonable for the Cleric to have a swathe of precast spells (some months in advance) I assume it's reasonable for the Monk to have collected powerful and useful magic items in the meantime... Which the Cleric should also have every opportunity to do, just like the Monk should be able to have hireling and the Cleric should be able to pay a Wizard to concentrate on buff spells for him, which the Monk should also be wealthy enough to do at level 20 as well and...

You get the idea at this point right?

Witty Username

2021-02-01, 06:58 PM

Divine intervention is a serious wildcard to this, Is it limited to replicating a cleric spell, or is it more open then that?

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 07:03 PM

I can't remember where this came up, maybe in relation to Eberron's dragonmarked houses, but I'm pretty sure there is sage advice that basically says that this logic is invalid. If a features puts something on your class spell list it only applies to your, it has to specifically be on your list to count as a "X list spell" generically. Otherwise the Dragonmarked houses make every spell on their list into cleric spells for the purpose of DI as well.

Specifically, when it says "Your domain list" this means it's not "every arcana clerics domain list". Hence, DI can do that for a specific arcana clerics spells and no one else's.

(I may be wrong on the sage advice, but I think the basic reading of the text still implies that).

It's all moot because it does not change the actual math, which is stunlock if you lose initiative and a generally lower initiative, except that you can create a scenario where the cleric is fighting alongside their silver dragon brood or something (which is no longer a duel, and you might as well say the monk has an army o

Sage Advice? Advice isn't rules. Never was, never will be.

Plus, DI doesn't say "your domain" just "cleric domain spell". If it's any domain, you get to use it.

And it's not moot, because it does change the math. A Dragon can carry the Cleric out of the Monk's range. No more stun lock for the Monk.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 07:09 PM

The reasonable (in terms of the hypothetical) answer is probably "you are whisked away to an unknown location shortly after you wake, dressed and ready for a day of adventuring. There is a single figure dressed in flowing robes across from you in what you assume is an endless expansive void, seemingly in the middle of his morning meditation. You are in the middle of your first of 5 morning buff spells. Before you can complete it, a booming voice from the void beyond interrupts your focus and exclaims that you must fight the figure across from you to the death or be trapped for all eternity.

You lock eyes with the figure across from you and before you can blink he's advancing rapidly towards you, roll initiative."

I say this because if you assume that it's reasonable for the Cleric to have a swathe of precast spells (some months in advance) I assume it's reasonable for the Monk to have collected powerful and useful magic items in the meantime... Which the Cleric should also have every opportunity to do, just like the Monk should be able to have hireling and the Cleric should be able to pay a Wizard to concentrate on buff spells for him, which the Monk should also be wealthy enough to do at level 20 as well and...

You get the idea at this point right?

Okay, but these are your ideas for the duel. That's not what OP has said, and not what everyone (myself included) seems to be imagining. What if we are talking "meet me in the plains to northeast by high-noon" type of duel?

Divine intervention is a serious wildcard to this, Is it limited to replicating a cleric spell, or is it more open then that?

It's not limited, but the book does suggest that these are the guidelines. Any Cleric spell, or any Cleric domain spell (which includes every Wizard spell of 6th+ level due to Arcana Cleric)

Amnestic

2021-02-01, 07:11 PM

And in general every cleric tactic needs to have a way to avoid the simplest monk solution, which is to dash, step of the wind, and move 200 feet away each round until they are sufficiently far away and/or hidden to short rest, then come back once the spell has ended or the clerics giant friend has grown bored and wandered off. Both classes can theoretically reach each other even through planar travel, but the monk has a significant tactical speed advantage which can put a wrench in a lot of these tactics.

If a monk really wants to invade my god's home plane to have a shot at me they are free to try it. :)

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 07:13 PM

Okay, but these are your ideas for the duel. That's not what OP has said, and not what everyone (myself included) seems to be imagining. What if we are talking "meet me in the plains to northeast by high-noon" type of duel?

It's not limited, but the book does suggest that these are the guidelines. Any Cleric spell, or any Cleric domain spell (which includes every Wizard spell of 6th+ level due to Arcana Cleric)

Duel implies a one-on-one. Not a "Me and my minions versus you," situation.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 07:22 PM

Okay, but these are your ideas for the duel. That's not what OP has said, and not what everyone (myself included) seems to be imagining. What if we are talking "meet me in the plains to northeast by high-noon" type of duel?

OP specifies neither so I feel like the most acceptable assumption is the one that gives both parties equal opportunity.

If you don't feel that way, I counter your "the cleric is prepared ahead of time" with "the Open Hand Monk found your Cleric while they slept (or prepared) and killed him with Quivering Palm after their surprise fades."

I can see we're not going to agree on what a "duel" means in terms of rules so we'll just go with "the Cleric will definitely win if he's allowed to be 20th level an undetermined amount of time in advance with foresight into this fight happening".

I think that's boring but it's probably the result given those circumstances. Congratulations, the Cleric won, really had to think about that one.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 07:34 PM

You describe the type assistance you seek, per DI's description. You don't just go "help plz".

Clerics of 20th level can(/should) be quite familiar with their god's servants, they've got plenty of spells to make that happen on their way to 20th. If a DM no-goes "I need help from [Planetar/Empyrean's Name] in this fight" via divine intervention, when that satisfies the "equal to a cleric spell" (either Gate or Planar Ally as you like) suggested power level in the text, then I'm gonna call that hostile DMing in favour of the monk.

This is the cleric 20th level capstone and has a week-long cooldown. It's not meant to be weak, and if you stick to the suggested power level ("cleric spell or domain spell") then the DM should be okaying it every time.

And yet there is no cleric spell that will give you a concentration-free Empyrean ally, so I'm going to go ahead and call that an unreasonable expectation. You're asking for something more than twice as strong as True Polymorph (gets you one CR 9 ally, with concentration). You're trying to pretend that it's just a Gate spell you're asking for but you're double-dipping on the Divine Intervention by also claiming that the Empyrean will obey you.

If you ask for help in this fight and you get a divine intervention Gate spell which opens up an escape route to Elysium for you (saving your life but making you lose the duel), you're not being cheated by not getting an Empyrean--you still got a 9th level spell. Maybe you should have asked for something more reasonable, like a Couatl (Conjure Celestial) or Summon Celestial IX instead.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 07:42 PM

Duel implies a one-on-one. Not a "Me and my minions versus you," situation.

Let me ask you this: If instead of "Cleric vs Monk" it was "Whatever vs Ranger". Would you allow a Beastmaster Ranger to bring in his pet? Probably yes. The animal companion is a feature that allows a minion and should be taken into account, just like Stunning Strike.

So why does the Ranger get to bring a minion, but not the Cleric? Divine Intervention is also a feature that allows for minions.

I'm all for non-permanent summons not being allowed (as a prep. They should be allowed when in combat). But stuff like Familiars, Animal Companions, and Simulacrums should be allowed. You can't arbitrarily remove features from classes just because it makes the Monk lose.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 07:42 PM

What's to keep DI from being used to bring in another monk of 20th level of a superior subclass? Cleric being a safe enough distance of course.
Also, what spells can cleric use for scry and die?

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 07:48 PM

Here's something else:

If we allow permanent buffs to be pre-cast (which we should because it makes no sense not to), then the Cleric can be True Polymorphed into an Ancient Brass Dragon before the fight even starts. 300 extra HP means the Monk runs out of Ki before killing the Cleric and 3 legendary saves is just extra middle-finger flavored gravy on top.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 07:49 PM

Let me ask you this: If instead of "Cleric vs Monk" it was "Whatever vs Ranger". Would you allow a Beastmaster Ranger to bring in his pet? Probably yes. The animal companion is a feature that allows a minion and should be taken into account, just like Stunning Strike.

So why does the Ranger get to bring a minion, but not the Cleric? Divine Intervention is also a feature that allows for minions.

I'm all for non-permanent summons not being allowed (as a prep. They should be allowed when in combat). But stuff like Familiars, Animal Companions, and Simulacrums should be allowed. You can't arbitrarily remove features from classes just because it makes the Monk lose.

Is a Beastmaster's pet essential to their (sub)class? Would you reasonably expect a Beastmaster sans animal companion to perform up to par, in an adventuring day?

Is a Cleric's Simulacrum, bound minions, or other such essential to their class? Would you reasonably expect a Cleric without minions to perform up to par, in an adventuring day?

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 07:55 PM

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 07:56 PM

What's to keep DI from being used to bring in another monk of 20th level of a superior subclass?

Divine Intervention's description stops you.

"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."

The feature isn't called "Summon 20th level Monk." And remember that Divine Intervention is a Cleric 10 feature - - Cleric 20 just makes it more reliable. If you think a DM is just going to hand out infinite Simulacra or Empyreans or Silver Dragons or 20th level monks to a Tier 2 cleric (as long as they remember to ask often enough)... either you're wrong or your DM is giving you more bang for your buck than the game designers seemingly intended. Why would they even bother mentioning "any cleric spell or cleric domain spell" if they really meant "any spell from any list up to and including unsafe Wish?" Clearly they did not.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 08:12 PM

Saying "you're using this feature in an optimized way, so I'm going to argue that you can't use it this way because it isn't expected by me" doesn't make my argument less valid.

Clearly you think that features that allow for minions should be allowed. You just don't like it when this feature is labeled "Divine Intervention"

I'm of the opinion that if a minion is a core part of the class then they should be allowed.

Beastmaster's beast? Yes.
Wizard's familiar? Maybe.
Random assortment of minions cobbled together using a singular level 10 feature? No.

I would appreciate you not strawmanning my posts, by the way.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 08:25 PM

Divine Intervention's description stops you.

"The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate."

The feature isn't called "Summon 20th level Monk." And remember that Divine Intervention is a Cleric 10 feature - - Cleric 20 just makes it more reliable. If you think a DM is just going to hand out infinite Simulacra or Empyreans or Silver Dragons or 20th level monks to a Tier 2 cleric (as long as they remember to ask often enough)... either you're wrong or your DM is giving you more bang for your buck than the game designers seemingly intended. Why would they even bother mentioning "any cleric spell or cleric domain spell" if they really meant "any spell from any list up to and including unsafe Wish?" Clearly they did not.

Going by this kind of response, it looks like I touched a quite a nerve of a weakpoint. For quite a bit of the thread, it was just 'assumed' that monk would be in melee in cleric in a 'no matta what' kind of manner. This kind of methodology of 'it is always convenient for me, but not for you' tends to kill arguments. Anyways, planar ally could fit in with this in bringing in a 20th level monk since planar ally is a 6th level spell. It also falls under DM's choice, though.
If you get to assume that monk is in melee (which would be DM's choice) no matta what, then I get to assume bringing in of 20th level monk no matta what.
Otherwise, your argument holds no meaning. Sticking strictly RAW, DI calls for equivalent spell for 20th level monk assistance.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 08:28 PM

I'm of the opinion that if a minion is a core part of the class then they should be allowed.

Beastmaster's beast? Yes.
Wizard's familiar? Maybe.
Random assortment of minions cobbled together using a singular level 10 feature? No.

I would appreciate you not strawmanning my posts, by the way.

No strawman here, just different views of what constitutes a "core part of the class".

I argue that beseeching your deity for help is a core part of the Cleric. Usually this help comes in the form of Spellcasting, but DI has a similar enough tone. Thus if DI is a core part of the class, then it should be allowed to do what it does, even if there are unexpected results.

Arguing from a position of what is and what isn't expected means nothing in an optimization debate.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 08:33 PM

Sticking strictly RAW, DI calls for equivalent spell for 20th level monk assistance.

Strictly RAW, your God (DM) decides what "I want a 20th level monk to help me" earns you.

With that attitude you're displaying, I wouldn't be surprised if the one you're fighting is tasked with helping you learn some humility.

Also, ironically, you quoting MaxWilson of all people as assuming the Monk needs to be in melee is plain wrong. He was the first to explicitly bring up the fact that a Monk can kite a Cleric (the strategy involves ranged combat) and continued to do so when other posters seemed to suggest that the Monk would simply fail to catch a far away Cleric.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 08:51 PM

Going by this kind of response, it looks like I touched a quite a nerve of a weakpoint. For quite a bit of the thread, it was just 'assumed' that monk would be in melee in cleric in a 'no matta what' kind of manner.

Eh? Are we reading the same thread? In the thread I'm reading there's been quite a bit of discussion about the monk not even WANTING to be in melee with the cleric because cleric spells are short range. Over and over, people have suggested breaking contact to wait out spell durations.

Why would you want to be in melee "no matter what"?

Also, ironically, you quoting MaxWilson of all people as assuming the Monk needs to be in melee is plain wrong. He was the first to explicitly bring up the fact that a Monk can kite a Cleric (the strategy involves ranged combat) and continued to do so when other posters seemed to suggest that the Monk would simply fail to catch a far away Cleric.

I must have overlooked some posts. I don't remember any posts about clerics outrunning monks, just some posts about terrain and whether close terrain (total cover) favors monks or clerics.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 08:58 PM

1. Strictly RAW, your God (DM) decides what "I want a 20th level monk to help me" earns you.

2. With that attitude you're displaying, I wouldn't be surprised if the one you're fighting is tasked with helping you learn some humility.

3. Also, ironically, you quoting MaxWilson of all people as assuming the Monk needs to be in melee is plain wrong. He was the first to explicitly bring up the fact that a Monk can kite a Cleric (the strategy involves ranged combat) and continued to do so when other posters seemed to suggest that the Monk would simply fail to catch a far away Cleric.

1. Correct. If one side gets to assume something like melee in the favor in a 'no matta what' fashion, then other side gets to assume the same as well. Else, it's no use arguing or debating. Tackling only the RAW aspect without going for the spell portion can be taken as an acknowledgement from you that I am correct.
2. The post was in a response to what he stated about a class feature when infact what I stated was correct. Whether the reasoning in the fight itself was 'tasked with helping you learn some humility' is something outside the scope of monk versus cleric fashion. If Roleplay is brought in this, then the cleric/god/etc. can be adapted accordingly.
3. This depends upon method of kiting and state of cleric. This is why my earlier question about what monk 'main class, but no subclass' can do about flight. Not to mention terrain, environment, etc. Bringing us back to the favor one side versus the other. Cleric can also relieve exhaustion. How does a monk relieve exhaustion? Monk 'too far away' resting leaves plenty of time for cleric to find and disturb rest.

-edit- @maxWilson: When it comes to the melee 'no matta what' part, posts about stunning strike and such.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 09:02 PM

I must have overlooked some posts. I don't remember any posts about clerics outrunning monks, just some posts about terrain and whether close terrain (total cover) favors monks or clerics.

In reference to flying targets, which at the time I assumed was in regards to a Cleric (probably Tempest) flying to avoid the Monk, but in retrospect was probably in reference to a summoned celestial ally.

EDIT: and in my double checking to make sure my memory hadn't failed me and it was you that posted about bows, it was @animewatcha who prompted that response originally. Makes it even stranger that they make that claim.

How does a monk relieve exhaustion?
Why would this matter exactly? Seems like a pretty arbitrary checkbox to award the Cleric when one of them should be dead before that comes about.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 09:08 PM

To Cleric supporters here:

How exactly is the Cleric killing the Monk? Diamond Body makes anything saved based far from a safe bet, nevermind nasty things usually targeting Wis...

On hitting a Heavy Armor Clerics (maybe Forge) AC: This is leaning into nebulous 'Cleric wins cause' territory. Heavy Armor is a subclass feature, you can't pick and choose subclass features whilst the Monk is left undeclared as just a main class Monk.

This also applies to feats, I've seen posts along the lines of Alert for the Cleric or Res: Con for the Cleric (going as far as to say basically there's no reason they shouldn't have it by 20). The Monk meanwhile ends up with no feat in that comparison? They still have an ASI left if 4 are used for maxing Dex and Wis, nevermind the potential of racial feats.

To surmise: Yes the Cleric is likely to win if you keep giving them things whilst the Monk stands around empty handed, not in the way they like either.

On hitting in general to stun: Tasha's rules gives the Monk the ability to add 2-6 to their attack roll. You would have to roll particularly bad or be incredibly Ki conservative to not get a hit.

On starting outside of melee range: I've done a fair amount of PvP with different folks and the general rule is that you start in range of each other. If you're starting outside of a Monk's extended movement in a duel, but within a Cleric's spell range, that smacks of one sidedness. On the otherhand as Max and others have pointed out, at extreme ranges the Monk can just kite the Cleric to death. With a Kensei it wouldn't even be that difficult and for a Monk as a whole, trying to kite them to death first at those ranges is a nonstarter because of Deflect Missiles.

Some general rules for the scenario would have been better to sort this debated stuff out. Something like:

-Divine Intervention is limited to Cleric spells or a Domain spell of the Cleric in question. You're basically getting an extra slot, this is not a win button. Gate doesn't give you anything but a portal unless you know that actual name of what/who you want to summon, it makes no sense to assume that you'd get a powerful celestial out of it.

-Define a starting range that makes sense, either they start at extreme range or something like 30ft

-No, you don't get to roll up into a duel with presummoned creatures. That's not in the spirit of a duel and begs the question why isn't the Monk preparing too? This makes sense to ignore when it is integral to a subclass lieka beast master or chainlock, just because you can get Simulacrum doesn't mean that you should get to prepare it, especially when it has such a long cast time, high and high cost. To any arguments that say well you're 20th level... what's to say you're summoned to this duel when your Simulacrum is fresh? It could be half down on health and mostly out of slots at that point.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 09:18 PM

Why would this matter exactly? Seems like a pretty arbitrary checkbox to award the Cleric when one of them should be dead before that comes about.

Depends upon terrain and such. It is easy for monk to runaway from cleric, but exhaustion (interrupted long rests) take long rests to heal from (outside other factors) 1 level at a time. Clerics have a spell for that and can harass long enough for exhaustion to kill. 5e has different mechanics for exhaustion than 3.5e.

@dork_forge thanks for reinforcing much of what I've been posting.

Valmark

2021-02-01, 09:25 PM

Depends a bit too much on the details of the encounter and characters, though on average I'd probably put my money on the cleric assuming their god of choice isn't a **** because of Divine Intervention (and assuming the cleric hasn't been one to their god).

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 09:25 PM

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 09:26 PM

To Cleric supporters here:

How exactly is the Cleric killing the Monk? Diamond Body makes anything saved based far from a safe bet, nevermind nasty things usually targeting Wis...

-Divine Intervention is limited to Cleric spells or a Domain spell of the Cleric in question. You're basically getting an extra slot, this is not a win button. Gate doesn't give you anything but a portal unless you know that actual name of what/who you want to summon, it makes no sense to assume that you'd get a powerful celestial out of it.

DI might not be a win-button but it's still ridiculously strong.

It's important to note that it's not limited to Cleric spells or a Domain spell of the Cleric in question. It's any Domain spell. Arcana Cleric's existence means most powerful Wizard spells will be chosen as Domain spells (unless every high level Arcana Cleric that has ever existed is supid and picks something idiotic like Meteor Swarm)

When you use DI, it's not you getting an extra slot because you don't cast anything with DI. It's your deity doing the whole thing.

So you get stuff like True Polymorph or Gate without blowing your Concentration. And hey, a level 20 Cleric definitely knows the name of at least one major celestial.

Plus, since it's definitely not you doing the casting, then it's not going to use your Save DC. A Magic Jar via Wish effect means the Monk has to make like a DC 25 Cha save. Even with Diamond Mind, that's really difficult.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 09:28 PM

DI might not be a win-button but it's still ridiculously strong.

It's important to note that it's not limited to Cleric spells or a Domain spell of the Cleric in question. It's any Domain spell. Arcana Cleric's existence means most powerful Wizard spells will be chosen as Domain spells (unless every high level Arcana Cleric that has ever existed is supid and picks something idiotic like Meteor Swarm)

When you use DI, it's not you getting an extra slot because you don't cast anything with DI. It's your deity doing the whole thing.

So you get stuff like True Polymorph or Gate without blowing your Concentration. And hey, a level 20 Cleric definitely knows the name of at least one major celestial.

Plus, since it's definitely not you doing the casting, then it's not going to use your Save DC. A Magic Jar via Wish effect means the Monk has to make like a DC 25 Cha save. Even with Diamond Mind, that's really difficult.

Care to quote the RAW on that DC 25 save? Or are you just making numbers up?

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 09:31 PM

Usage of shortbow arrow firing allows cleric to adjust to it. It could simply be reserved an action to move out of the way of an arrow that would hit them (This is split up into 2 scenarios. First one, common of 'fire all at once'. Second scenario extends the turn out time-wise in that adjusting each shot in response to what happens in the first. If the first shot killed first target, then shoot at second one, etc.)
Heck, reserve cantrip to use at an arrow that would hit me to destroy it directly.
-edit- Shortbow factor also requires keeping track of ammo. Unless, something like Hank's Energy Bow.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 09:32 PM

Usage of shortbow arrow firing allows cleric to adjust to it. It could simply be reserved an action to move out of the way of an arrow that would hit them (This is split up into 2 scenarios. First one, common of 'fire all at once'. Second scenario extends the turn out time-wise in that adjusting each shot in response to what happens in the first. If the first shot killed first target, then shoot at second one, etc.)
Heck, reserve cantrip to use at an arrow that would hit me to destroy it directly.

So, you're effectively giving the Cleric the Monk's Deflect Missiles, because... Why?

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 09:33 PM

Care to quote the RAW on that DC 25 save? Or are you just making numbers up?

The making up the numbers is likely supposed to be the DC of a diety ( mostly casting modifier) since diety's are supposed to be higher than PCs in a normal game.

So, you're effectively giving the Cleric the Monk's Deflect Missiles, because... Why?

Before you posted, I edited to address that actually. However, to add to it. Monk attacking is not a monk resting. A monk not resting (outside of other factors) is eventually a monk getting exhausted.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 09:35 PM

DI might not be a win-button but it's still ridiculously strong.

It is

It's important to note that it's not limited to Cleric spells or a Domain spell of the Cleric in question. It's any Domain spell. Arcana Cleric's existence means most powerful Wizard spells will be chosen as Domain spells (unless every high level Arcana Cleric that has ever existed is supid and picks something idiotic like Meteor Swarm)

It makes no sense whatsoever for you to get a Domain spell that isn't your domain for DI.

Arcana Cleric has a defined list of Domain Spells, choosing a spell with your subclass feature does not make it a Domain Spell, nor would I think it would make it eligible for DI in any way. (If you've chosen Arcana Cleric you're also choosing lower AC)

When you use DI, it's not you getting an extra slot because you don't cast anything with DI. It's your deity doing the whole thing.

So you get stuff like True Polymorph or Gate without blowing your Concentration. And hey, a level 20 Cleric definitely knows the name of at least one major celestial.

Concetration is a fair point, Gate still probably wouldn't do anything for you.

Plus, since it's definitely not you doing the casting, then it's not going to use your Save DC. A Magic Jar via Wish effect means the Monk has to make like a DC 25 Cha save. Even with Diamond Mind, that's really difficult.

...Where is DC25 coming from? And why on Earth are you trying to Magic Jar someone in PvP?

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 09:36 PM

Depends upon terrain and such. It is easy for monk to runaway from cleric, but exhaustion (interrupted long rests) take long rests to heal from (outside other factors) 1 level at a time. Clerics have a spell for that and can harass long enough for exhaustion to kill. 5e has different mechanics for exhaustion than 3.5e.
That reminds me. Though it's an incredibly common ruling (and later added as an optional tool in Xanathar's) getting levels of Exhaustion from not resting has no basis in RAW.

Through the default rules, the only thing that can cause Exhaustion that would normally be part of a rest is eating and drinking, you need to ingest a certain amount of food and water over a period of time. No sleep required, it's silly but it's true.

Arcana Cleric has a defined list of Domain Spells, choosing a spell with your subclass feature does not make it a Domain Spell, nor would I think it would make it eligible for DI in any way. (If you've chosen Arcana Cleric you're also choosing lower AC)

The feature does specifically state they are domain spells, so I'd have to agree with them on this one. It is also specifically your domain spells, not a general Cleric thing for what that's worth.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 09:36 PM

Before you posted, I edited to address that actually. However, to add to it. Monk attacking is not a monk resting. A monk not resting (outside of other factors) is eventually a monk getting exhausted.

Are you really going to claim that a Monk is going to get minimum two levels of Exhaustion from a few minutes of running and target practice?

Again-two minutes if in short range, four minutes at long range, assuming no magic bow, AC 22 on the Cleric, and not even accounting for crits. (Admittedly, crits would barely touch the math due to Disadvantage, but eh, still worth noting.)

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 09:42 PM

It is

Concetration is a fair point, Gate still probably wouldn't do anything for you.

Gate in a 20th level monk.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 09:46 PM

How exactly is the Cleric killing the Monk? Diamond Body makes anything saved based far from a safe bet, nevermind nasty things usually targeting Wis...

The best non-domain-dependent method I can think of is to Conjure Celestial (Couatl) and have it polymorph into a Quetzalcoatlus (Dive Bomb, bite reach 10') and repeatedly dive bomb the monk while relying on its weapon immunity to keep it safe from arrows. That works against many types of monk, as long as the cleric themself can avoid being targeted. Doesn't work against Kensei of course, and doesn't work if the DM overrules the rather silly RAW which seem to suggest (without outright stating) that you can't ready an action which requires movement (jump up and hit the Quetzalcoatlus when it tries to dive bomb you). Silly because obviously you COULD reasonably do that.

A melee option with a high likelihood of success would seem to be taking a damaging cantrip (Booming Blade) and a good AC and then using Sanctuary (after each attack) plus occasional Heal spells to use up the monk's ki and then HP. Sanctuary is probably enough to prevent stunlock from working more than a couple of rounds, and then you can Heal the damage. But even without ki, a monk can still kill you to death with ranged weaponry unless you have a way to keep him in melee...

That's all I've got right now: summons and winning by attrition. I'm ignoring Divine Intervention and Gate as too context- and DM-dependent to be relevant to a duel.

When you use DI, it's not you getting an extra slot because you don't cast anything with DI. It's your deity doing the whole thing.

By that reasoning it's illegal during a duel. The monk is dueling you, not "your deity".

LudicSavant

2021-02-01, 09:50 PM

Is a Beastmaster's pet essential to their (sub)class? Would you reasonably expect a Beastmaster sans animal companion to perform up to par, in an adventuring day?

Is a Cleric's Simulacrum, bound minions, or other such essential to their class? Would you reasonably expect a Cleric without minions to perform up to par, in an adventuring day?

Every optimized level 20 Arcana Cleric is going to take Simulacrum or Wish (which gives them a Simulacrum). Asking them not to do this because it would "make them above par" is asking them to fight with one hand tied behind their back.

It might make the contest more even (in that both sides may have a more equal chance of victory), but it does not make it more fair (in that the contest will be less determined by the actual strength of the combatants).

Heck, it's arguably easier for the Cleric to replace a Simulacrum than it is for the Ranger to replace a pet. And the Ranger's pet is so, so much easier to kill.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 09:50 PM

That reminds me. Though it's an incredibly common ruling (and later added as an optional tool in Xanathar's) getting levels of Exhaustion from not resting has no basis in RAW.

Through the default rules, the only thing that can cause Exhaustion that would normally be part of a rest is eating and drinking, you need to ingest a certain amount of food and water over a period of time. No sleep required, it's silly but it's true.

The feature does specifically state they are domain spells, so I'd have to agree with them on this one. It is also specifically your domain spells, not a general Cleric thing for what that's worth.

Top part. If that is how it is, then constant interruption of said eating and drinking. Coming down to monk potentially running out of food and drink (outside of other factors) while a cleric gets to summon it.

bottom part. quotation that I quickly googled for relevant class feature 'The DM chooses the Nature of the intervention; the Effect of any Cleric spell or Cleric domain spell would be appropriate.' in regards to that portion of posting. Arcana cleric unbalances this, but that is WOTC for ya.

Are you really going to claim that a Monk is going to get minimum two levels of Exhaustion from a few minutes of running and target practice?

Again-two minutes if in short range, four minutes at long range, assuming no magic bow, AC 22 on the Cleric, and not even accounting for crits. (Admittedly, crits would barely touch the math due to Disadvantage, but eh, still worth noting.)

Not running and target practice alone. Overtime of hours, long after ammo has run out.

Second portion is also assuming that cleric is doing nothing about it.

MrCharlie

2021-02-01, 09:53 PM

Sage Advice? Advice isn't rules. Never was, never will be.

Plus, DI doesn't say "your domain" just "cleric domain spell". If it's any domain, you get to use it.

And it's not moot, because it does change the math. A Dragon can carry the Cleric out of the Monk's range. No more stun lock for the Monk.
That amount of prep is unreasonable, so it is moot. Might as well give the monk an army. It's the same sort of argument.

DI is not at issue, the text of arcana domain is.

Arcana domain adds an arcane spell to your domain list. As in, it's not on it otherwise. As it's not a domain spell for anyone until you add it. It isn't a cleric domain spell until you choose it, clearly and unambigously. And as such, it's not valid for divine intervention unless you're an arcana cleric, because it's not on a domain list.

The cleric can't DI any wizard spell. Just wizard spells if they are an arcana cleric, and only the ones they pick.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 09:53 PM

Every optimized level 20 Arcana Cleric is going to take Simulacrum or Wish (which gives them a Simulacrum). Asking them not to do this because it would "make them above par" is asking them to fight with one hand tied behind their back.

It might make the contest more even (in that both sides may have a more equal chance of victory), but it does not make it more fair (in that the contest will be less determined by the actual strength of the combatants).

If they cast Wish-Simulacrum in the fight, that's fair to me.

But I would not consider a Simulacrum to be essential to an Arcana Cleric. It's an incredibly valuable tool, but not something I consider core to the Cleric.

A Beastmaster with their wolf right beside them? Central, core, iconic.
A Chainlock with the little Imp whispering them evil ideas? Not as central, core, or iconic, but still pretty there.
An Arcana Cleric with a duplicate of themselves made of snow? Not really any of that.

LudicSavant

2021-02-01, 09:58 PM

If they cast Wish-Simulacrum in the fight, that's fair to me.

But I would not consider a Simulacrum to be essential to an Arcana Cleric. It's an incredibly valuable tool, but not something I consider core to the Cleric.

A Beastmaster with their wolf right beside them? Central, core, iconic.
A Chainlock with the little Imp whispering them evil ideas? Not as central, core, or iconic, but still pretty there.
An Arcana Cleric with a duplicate of themselves made of snow? Not really any of that.

The key question to ask here is "so?"

The iconic-ness of a feature is both very subjective, and very not relevant to the question of who would win in a fight, or even how likely they are to have that ability available in a fight.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 09:59 PM

Top part. If that is how it is, then constant interruption of said eating and drinking. Coming down to monk potentially running out of food and drink (outside of other factors) while a cleric gets to summon it.

Monk's no longer require food or drink after level 15.

Exhaustion just isn't relevant.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 09:59 PM

...Where is DC25 coming from? And why on Earth are you trying to Magic Jar someone in PvP?

It's not actually DC 25. It's something close to that. AFAIK, the only deity that is statted out is Tiamat and she has DC 25. Since she's a lesser deity in the Realms, I think it's fair to say that higher deities would have similar (if not higher) save DCs

By that reasoning it's illegal during a duel. The monk is dueling you, not "your deity".

This can definitely be argued. However, your entire spellcasting is dependand on your deity, so by that logic of course Monk 20 beats spell-less Cleric 20. Oh well, if only dead monks could sue.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 10:01 PM

The key question to ask here is "so?"

The iconic-ness of a feature is both very subjective, and very not relevant to the question of who would win in a fight, or even how likely they are to have that ability available in a fight.

Go ahead and do a poll, if you'd like. Who thinks that a Beastmaster's animal companion is essential to them, and how much, as compared to an Arcana Cleric and their Sim.

And it's because a duel is a one-on-one. Since we're comparing 20th level PCs, they both should have followings-the Cleric might have more spells to bind minions, but the Monk should have devotees, monasteries, etc. If you can summon minions mid-fight, which the Cleric can do, but the Monk cannot, that's fine-that's you exercising your abilities in the fight. If you just waltz into a duel with an army, that's not really a duel, now is it?

If the OP wants to say "It's combat as war, not combat as sport, so strategic concerns are a lot more important than tactical concerns," then great, the Cleric wins if we look at nothing but mechanics. But in a combat as war scenario, there's a poopton more to consider-the world, allies, enemies they might've made, etc.

LudicSavant

2021-02-01, 10:03 PM

Go ahead and do a poll, if you'd like. Who thinks that a Beastmaster's animal companion is essential to them, and how much, as compared to an Arcana Cleric and their Sim.

Why in the multiverse would I do a poll when I just said that the 'essential-ness' is an irrelevant factor?

Edit Wow this thread is moving fast, I edit something 1 minute after posting and there's already two replies. Moving my edit to a new post so it can be seen :smallwink:

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 10:06 PM

The key question to ask here is "so?"

The iconic-ness of a feature is both very subjective, and very not relevant to the question of who would win in a fight, or even how likely they are to have that ability available in a fight.

In an actual game? Sure, irrelevant. In a thread about hypothetical 1 v 1 duels in a vacuum? Relevant to persuading people that the thing ought to be inside the vacuum seal.

See earlier discussion on the Monk not getting to recruit extraplanar allies via Empty Body. It's not that they can't do it in actual play, but it seems against the spirit of the challenge, to me at least. You're right that where to draw the line is ultimately subjective, but JNAProductions has drawn their line and you can't move it--all you can do is draw your own personal line in a different place.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 10:07 PM

In an actual game? Sure, irrelevant. In a thread about hypothetical 1 v 1 duels in a vacuum? Relevant to persuading people that the thing ought to be inside the vacuum seal.

See earlier discussion on the Monk not getting to recruit extraplanar allies via Empty Body. It's not that they can't do it in actual play, but it seems against the spirit of the challenge, to me at least. You're right that where to draw the line is ultimately subjective, but JNAProductions has drawn their line and you can't move it--all you can do is draw your own personal line in a different place.

Nah, I can be persuaded. I'm not intractable.

But I've yet to see an argument that says that a Cleric's potential minions are as essential to the class as a Beastmaster's pet.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 10:09 PM

Monk's no longer require food or drink after level 15.

Exhaustion just isn't relevant.

Missed that part. Then found the part of 'travel'. 8 hours of 'travel', each hour beyond that, etc. A monk trying to kite a cleric is a monk who is 'traveling'.

-edit- granted only saw in PHB. Haven't looked in any other sources on it.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 10:10 PM

That amount of prep is unreasonable, so it is moot. Might as well give the monk an army. It's the same sort of argument.

DI is not at issue, the text of arcana domain is.

Arcana domain adds an arcane spell to your domain list. As in, it's not on it otherwise. As it's not a domain spell for anyone until you add it. It isn't a cleric domain spell until you choose it, clearly and unambigously. And as such, it's not valid for divine intervention unless you're an arcana cleric, because it's not on a domain list.

Did the monk create that army using their own class features? If so, I say go for it. If not (and I'm not aware of any monk class feature that creates armies) then it's not the same thing, and so it's not moot.

Take two Clerics. Jeff, Arcana Cleric level 20, chose Wish as their 9th level domain spell. It is now a domain spell. You cannot argue that it isn't. It's 100% a spell and 100% part of a domain. Therefore, Jake, can use DI to cast Wish, because DI allows "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell"

"Any" is "any". If it's in any domain, you can use DI to access it.

LudicSavant

2021-02-01, 10:11 PM

And it's because a duel is a one-on-one. Since we're comparing 20th level PCs, they both should have followings-the Cleric might have more spells to bind minions, but the Monk should have devotees, monasteries, etc. If you can summon minions mid-fight, which the Cleric can do, but the Monk cannot, that's fine-that's you exercising your abilities in the fight. If you just waltz into a duel with an army, that's not really a duel, now is it?

You're basically suggesting (likely unintentionally) that characters should not act like they would in any real, practical scenario.

Casters pre-cast things that have long durations. It's a thing that casters do. They do not cast Mage Armor or the like mid-fight. Whether you think Mage Armor is "iconic" or "essential" does not change the fact that that is how any optimizer will play those characters.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 10:12 PM

Missed that part. Then found the part of 'travel'. 8 hours of 'travel', each hour beyond that, etc. A monk trying to kite a cleric is a monk who is 'traveling'.

Okay.

I refer back to two minutes of regular fire or four minutes of disadvantaged fire to kill a Cleric with 163 HP. It's 8.5 damage every two/four attacks, so a Hill Dwarf Cleric with 20 Con and the Tough feat (263 HP) who heals himself to full six times and is prone (for disadvantage on ranged attacks) takes a little under 40 minutes of fire. A over an hour, but less than two, with disadvantage. That's well under the 8 hour travel time for Exhaustion.

You're basically suggesting (likely unintentionally) that characters should not act like they would in any real, practical scenario.

Casters pre-cast things that have long durations. It's a thing that casters do. They do not cast Mage Armor or the like mid-fight. Whether you think Mage Armor is "iconic" or "essential" does not change the fact that that is how any optimizer will play those characters.

Which is why I've said nothing about not having Aid or Death Ward up. Since those are reasonable long-term buffs that you can cast at the start of the day and have for the rest of it. Those are on your person.
I've also not said the Cleric shouldn't have their Holy Symbol, or armor, or anything like that.

But in a one-on-one... You don't get a two.

MaxWilson

2021-02-01, 10:13 PM

Nah, I can be persuaded. I'm not intractable.

But I've yet to see an argument that says that a Cleric's potential minions are as essential to the class as a Beastmaster's pet.

Sorry, I meant the line about whether "iconic" is relevant. LudicSavant has made it clear that his line ignores "essential" and "iconic" entirely. I'm not sure where he does draw the line for the boundaries of a duel (is it "you can have anything you can create for yourself on a desert island given sufficient time?") but it's clearly different than yours. I'm not sure about the OP's line, would be interesting to get clarity there on what conditions they were asking about.

JNAProductions

2021-02-01, 10:14 PM

Sorry, I meant the line about whether "iconic" is relevant. LudicSavant has made it clear that his line ignores "essential" and "iconic" entirely. I'm not sure where he does draw the line for the boundaries of a duel (is it "you can have anything you can create for yourself on a desert island given sufficient time?") but it's clearly different than yours. I'm not sure about the OP's line, would be interesting to get clarity there on what conditions they were asking about.

That's fair. Thanks for clarifying.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 10:17 PM

Missed that part. Then found the part of 'travel'. 8 hours of 'travel', each hour beyond that, etc. A monk trying to kite a cleric is a monk who is 'traveling'.

You aren't "travelling" during combat. Travel Speed has nothing to do with your actual Speed, a Monk at a blistering 85ft has the exact same travel speed as a Dwarf Cleric with 25ft.

What would be more accurate are the chase rules but they're optional.

I also don't think it's actually possible for the fight not to have ended after 9+ hours since your argument hinges on the two characters continuing to interrupt and interact with each other. Even assuming the Cleric uses every available spell slot to heal (at as high an efficiency as possible) I'm pretty confident it would be well under that time frame still.

EDIT: And to be clear, this is assuming we follow your proposed "attrition" counter strategy to a kiting Monk. It's also possible, with luck in avoiding a counter attack in the mean time, that the Cleric manages to cast the necessary spells to create allies/obstructions that will kill the Monk, also happening well before 9 hours have passed.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-01, 10:18 PM

To Cleric supporters here:
How exactly is the Cleric killing the Monk? Diamond Body makes anything saved based far from a safe bet, nevermind nasty things usually targeting Wis...
I do think this is the salient question.
I outlined a potential path to victory based off assumptions from my own cleric of Trickery, but as I indicated in this thread, I do think monks as a class are well positioned to counter clerics.

The problem with these types of PvP style threads is so much effort has to be expended to just define the parameters of the duel, and what aspects of play should be considered or ignored.

As I stated before, the cleric is a "nesting class". Word of Recall is a fairly iconic cleric power, across many D&D editions. Any set of assumptions that removes W.o.R. from being a viable option is a substantial reduction in clerical options.

In 'the wild', a 20th level cleric with access to downtime is likely going to have numerous Planar Bound associates. A cleric is not going to casting Gate and having lunch with Thor everyday, nor are they going to be casting True Resurrection daily.

In natural play conditions, a cleric with access to 9th level spells is wise to use an Upcast Planar Binding as situations allow, and as often as they can.

DI might not be a win-button but it's still ridiculously strong.........
So you get stuff like True Polymorph or Gate without blowing your Concentration. And hey, a level 20 Cleric definitely knows the name of at least one major celestial
This is Monk v Cleric..so theoretically this could be a case of intra-faith violence. Divine Intervention could yield a result like an infallible Calm Emotion spell coupled with a Geas spell that instructs the two duelist to go bake chocolate chip cookies and settle their differences peaceably.

The results of Divine Intervention are unpredictable. This is from apocrypha, and has been the subject of comic books, movies, fantasy books, etc...and thus,(hopefully), safe to bring up...but Enoch used Divine Intervention and was transformed into the angel Metatron.
To me this is the case of a PC being transformed into an, (important), NPC................It is a cool Epic Destiny for a PC..but it is an ending.
Assuming a DM will let you play a Celestial Dragon Cleric is not guaranteed.

Edit: the thread 'lapped' me as I was writing this ...my apologies if this is now redundant

LudicSavant

2021-02-01, 10:20 PM

Which is why I've said nothing about not having Aid or Death Ward up. Since those are reasonable long-term buffs that you can cast at the start of the day and have for the rest of it.

Simulacrum is a longer-term effect than any of those things.

But in a one-on-one... You don't get a two.

But you have clearly said that you want to bring two for your Beastmaster. So clearly that's not where you're actually drawing the line.

Where you're drawing the line is your subjective assessment of how "iconic" a feature is. Which has no relevance in a practical discussion of how useful said features are in a fight.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 10:24 PM

Okay.

I refer back to two minutes of regular fire or four minutes of disadvantaged fire to kill a Cleric with 163 HP. It's 8.5 damage every two/four attacks, so a Hill Dwarf Cleric with 20 Con and the Tough feat (263 HP) who heals himself to full six times and is prone (for disadvantage on ranged attacks) takes a little under 20 minutes of fire. That's well under the 8 hour travel time for Exhaustion.

Assuming round is 6 seconds. Monk that carries around 240 arrows? Be careful about that potential for encumbrance. Your referring back to two minutes of regular fire, etc. is again going with the assumption of Cleric not doing anything in response. This is an admission by you that I am in the right.

You aren't "travelling" during combat. Travel Speed has nothing to do with your actual Speed, a Monk at a blistering 85ft has the exact same travel speed as a Dwarf Cleric with 25ft.

What would be more accurate are the chase rules but they're optional.

I also don't think it's actually possible for the fight not to have ended after 9+ hours since your argument hinges on the two characters continuing to interrupt and interact with each other.

This is supposed to be a duel. Of course they are supposed to interrupt and interact with each other. We are already going into ridiculous territory with WOTC RAI being thrown out the window. 'Screw your travel pace rules. I reach faster the Macguffin city by constantly being in combat.' I await someone trying to pull that on Matt Mercer or Chris Perkins or something like them.

If anything, the constant fighting could be likened to 'slow pace'.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 10:27 PM

This is Monk v Cleric..so theoretically this could be a case of intra-faith violence. Divine Intervention could yield a result like an infallible Calm Emotion spell couple with a Geas spell that instructs the two duelist to go bake chocolate chip cookies and settle their differences peaceably.

The results of Divine Intervention are unpredictable. This is from apocrypha, and has been the subject of comic books, movies, fantasy books, etc...and thus,(hopefully), safe to bring up...but Enoch used Divine Intervention and was transformed into the angel Metatron.
To me this is the case of a PC being transformed into an, (important), NPC................It is a cool Epic Destiny for a PC..but it is an ending.
Assuming a DM will let you play a Celestial Dragon Cleric is not guaranteed.

The thing with Dragon Cleric is that it happened long before the fight. It's a permanent spell, so the Cleric could've used DI for that years before they met with the Monk. And if unresistible spells are in play, I bet even harder on the Cleric!

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-01, 10:34 PM

This is supposed to be a duel. Of course they are supposed to interrupt and interact with each other. We are already going into ridiculous territory with WOTC RAI being thrown out the window. 'Screw your travel pace rules. I reach faster the Macguffin city by constantly being in combat.' I await someone trying to pull that on Matt Mercer or Chris Perkins or something like them.
Sure, I guarantee the designers intended for combats to extend into thousands of turns.

You do realize how ridiculous it sounds to even suggest that this fight would last long enough for travel pace to have any impact? The bare minimum amount of turns to gain a point of exhaustion from "travelling" is 5400 turns.

5400 turns where the two are constantly attacking each other. One of them is going to have been dead for a long time before that would have happened.

MrCharlie

2021-02-01, 10:38 PM

This can definitely be argued. However, your entire spellcasting is dependand on your deity, so by that logic of course Monk 20 beats spell-less Cleric 20. Oh well, if only dead monks could sue.
I think we're at the point where it can't, personally. You're trying to push the definitions so far beyond anything even remotely reasonable or even debatable that it's a straight parody of the question.

To put it another way, letting the cleric manifest a CR 30 creature for free is equivilent to starting the fight with the monk embedded under ten feet of concrete and saying the cleric won when they suffocate because they can't breath stone. Or in staging the fight in and antimagic zone.

I get wanting to appear clever by pointing out that these "fights" are asymmetric and that casters can do some insane stuff with prep, but A. that horse was dead and B. It's dead because it was made from straw. Let's keep it somewhat reasonable, like arguing that arcana clerics are highly likely to have similacrum and this means that subclass is highly dependent on the answer, and considering if A. This wins them the fight and B. What other clerics look like in comparison.

Scarytincan

2021-02-01, 10:48 PM

Yeah I'm gonna have to go monk on this one STATISTICALLY. Always depends on build and luck of the die, but STATISTICALLY the monk goes first and STATISTICALLY stuns the cleric first round. From there, monk has an indisputable advantage. Not insurmountable, but a clear advantage nonetheless. And if that monk is open hand or shadow, it's as good as over. QP or a free grapple in silence...

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 10:52 PM

I think we're at the point where it can't, personally. You're trying to push the definitions so far beyond anything even remotely reasonable or even debatable that it's a straight parody of the question.

To put it another way, letting the cleric manifest a CR 30 creature for free is equivilent to starting the fight with the monk embedded under ten feet of concrete and saying the cleric won when they suffocate because they can't breath stone. Or in staging the fight in and antimagic zone.

I get wanting to appear clever by pointing out that these "fights" are asymmetric and that casters can do some insane stuff with prep, but A. that horse was dead and B. It's dead because it was made from straw. Let's keep it somewhat reasonable, like arguing that arcana clerics are highly likely to have similacrum and this means that subclass is highly dependent on the answer, and considering if A. This wins them the fight and B. What other clerics look like in comparison.

It's not manifesting this creature for free. It's using one of its class features (with limited use, btw) to do so. That'd be like saying the Monk can stun the Cleric for free. It's just factually incorrect.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you talk of prep time. Using DI to gate in a high CR creature doesn't really involve any prep. If the Monk can't beat the creatures the Cleric can call, then they can't really beat the Cleric.

animewatcha

2021-02-01, 10:53 PM

Sure, I guarantee the designers intended for combats to extend into thousands of turns.

You do realize how ridiculous it sounds to even suggest that this fight would last long enough for travel pace to have any impact? The bare minimum amount of turns to gain a point of exhaustion from "travelling" is 5400 turns.

5400 turns where the two are constantly attacking each other. One of them is going to have been dead for a long time before that would have happened.

Welcome to RAW vs RAI.

'A meteor is crashing into the town in 3 days. It will take you a week to reach there to resolve it with the macguffin.'
'The h*** it won't. Give me the Macguffin, I can get there fast enough. Cause I am COMBATING AGAINST TIME!!!!'

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-01, 10:56 PM

The thing with Dragon Cleric is that it happened long before the fight.
Or the DM said no. Or the DM said "yes, you are a dragon now, but also an NPC", and the fight never happens.

When Mike Tyson bit Evander Holyfield's ear during a boxing match, it was shocking because it went against the rules, and more importantly the spirit of the contest.

Your example of "Dragon Cleric" reduces the question posed by the OP, to an unfettered, school yard game of "let's pretend".

Maybe the monk has Dragonslicer a sword of Dragon Slaying that is a +5 weapon against Dragons, and instantly slays Dragons on a critical hit,(no saving throw allowed),and also acts as an uncontrolled Orb of Dragonkind. (A PC in a game I run actually has this weapon, btw [ he finds it weak ]).

Once we go down this path of escalating "let's pretend" scenarios, all chance of a substantive discussion evaporate...as most unruly games of "let's pretend" end in utter chaos.

I personally would rather have a constructive and informative discussion, so henceforth, I'm just ignoring Divine Intervention.

Others of course, are not bound by my own, very personal decision to restrain what options I present. Please present whatever arguments you wish...just please, I beg you, be aware of the greater context of what the OP was asking.

heavyfuel

2021-02-01, 11:06 PM

Or the DM said no. Or the DM said "yes, you are a dragon now, but also an NPC", and the fight never happens.

Oh, we're waving our "the DM is arbitrary and ignores the rules" wand.

If the rules allow you to use True Polymorph to become any CR 20 creature, and then you do exactly that, you DM shouldn't pull a sneaky on you "Oh, you're totally an NPC now lol". Even if they did do that, that has absolutely zero bearing for this.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-01, 11:24 PM

The feature does specifically state they are domain spells, so I'd have to agree with them on this one. It is also specifically your domain spells, not a general Cleric thing for what that's worth.

Thank you for the correction I was running mostly off of memory for that.

Gate in a 20th level monk.

...What about the Gate spell makes you think that you will receive anyone, and not just a portal? Who's to say that you get the spell that you want anyway?

The best non-domain-dependent method I can think of is to Conjure Celestial (Couatl) and have it polymorph into a Quetzalcoatlus (Dive Bomb, bite reach 10') and repeatedly dive bomb the monk while relying on its weapon immunity to keep it safe from arrows. That works against many types of monk, as long as the cleric themself can avoid being targeted. Doesn't work against Kensei of course, and doesn't work if the DM overrules the rather silly RAW which seem to suggest (without outright stating) that you can't ready an action which requires movement (jump up and hit the Quetzalcoatlus when it tries to dive bomb you). Silly because obviously you COULD reasonably do that.

A melee option with a high likelihood of success would seem to be taking a damaging cantrip (Booming Blade) and a good AC and then using Sanctuary (after each attack) plus occasional Heal spells to use up the monk's ki and then HP. Sanctuary is probably enough to prevent stunlock from working more than a couple of rounds, and then you can Heal the damage. But even without ki, a monk can still kill you to death with ranged weaponry unless you have a way to keep him in melee...

That's all I've got right now: summons and winning by attrition. I'm ignoring Divine Intervention and Gate as too context- and DM-dependent to be relevant to a duel.

I think a summon is probably the best way yeah, on the dive bombing I think that would be countered by a fair few things potentially open to a Monk in question (obviosuly without defining a Monk there's not certainties):

-Whip build, at this level it's a very strong option
-Way of the Astral Self
-Bugbear Monks

It's not actually DC 25. It's something close to that. AFAIK, the only deity that is statted out is Tiamat and she has DC 25. Since she's a lesser deity in the Realms, I think it's fair to say that higher deities would have similar (if not higher) save DCs

So it's a number you just grabbed then. It's a highly DM dependent ability, assuming a DC 25 in a discussion based off of nothing pertinent to that actual ability is doing nothing but stacking things in the Cleric's favour.

Missed that part. Then found the part of 'travel'. 8 hours of 'travel', each hour beyond that, etc. A monk trying to kite a cleric is a monk who is 'traveling'.

-edit- granted only saw in PHB. Haven't looked in any other sources on it.

Why are you of the opinion that this fight would take even a single hour, nevemind over 8?

Did the monk create that army using their own class features? If so, I say go for it. If not (and I'm not aware of any monk class feature that creates armies) then it's not the same thing, and so it's not moot.

Take two Clerics. Jeff, Arcana Cleric level 20, chose Wish as their 9th level domain spell. It is now a domain spell. You cannot argue that it isn't. It's 100% a spell and 100% part of a domain. Therefore, Jake, can use DI to cast Wish, because DI allows "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell"

"Any" is "any". If it's in any domain, you can use DI to access it.

If the DM rules that way, then you can use DI to potentially access it. You don't get to choose, the DM does.

I do think this is the salient question.
I outlined a potential path to victory based off assumptions from my own cleric of Trickery, but as I indicated in this thread, I do think monks as a class are well positioned to counter clerics.

I think it's a point lost on a fair few posters, the argument seems to boil down a lot to 'Simulacrum' or 'DI is a win button/powerful enough that it may as well be.'

I think the spontaneous fight and the set up are very different approaches, with the set up basically being a solo PC Monk against a dungeon for all intents and purposes.

Assuming round is 6 seconds. Monk that carries around 240 arrows? Be careful about that potential for encumbrance. Your referring back to two minutes of regular fire, etc. is again going with the assumption of Cleric not doing anything in response. This is an admission by you that I am in the right.

Leaning on the encumberance rules is not a strong argument, PCs can carry ridiculous weights with poor strength.

Welcome to RAW vs RAI.

'A meteor is crashing into the town in 3 days. It will take you a week to reach there to resolve it with the macguffin.'
'The h*** it won't. Give me the Macguffin, I can get there fast enough. Cause I am COMBATING AGAINST TIME!!!!'

Arguing the potential silliness of RAW won't address the proposed combat though, there's no reason to assume that it would shift into travel, kiting by definition means you're attacking someone. There's no reason you'd leave combat.

Do the rules make a lot of sense? Often no, but they're the rules that we're discussing within.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-01, 11:24 PM

Oh, we're waving our "the DM is arbitrary and ignores the rules" wand.
Uhh..."the DM chooses the nature of the intervention". The rest of the sentence from page 59 of the PHB is suggested guidance. In the data set of "All Possible DM Rulings on a D/I ask to become Dragon Cleric"...a DM saying "No", "No Way", or even "Heck No" are all potential answers in the aforementioned data set.

More importantly, let's concede that Dragon Cleric Wins the Duel.
Cool....now what other solutions are out there?

I thought that was the point of the discussion. I guess I must have been incorrect.
Thread 🔚?

J.C.

2021-02-01, 11:48 PM

Monks are really good at PvP.

Clerics are generally bad at PvP. Arcana Clerics are the exception.

Divine Intervention works in a Anti Magic Field. Arcana Cleric allows you to access 9th level Wizard Spells with Divine Intervention. So you could have your deity Shapechange or True Polymorph you into something like a Phoenix or a Leviathan. (Optionally )comboing that with Anti Magic Field makes you invulnerable to anything the monk can dish out (and is awesome against other spell casters).

QQinfinity

2021-02-01, 11:59 PM

The most useful cleric spells during PvP are generally concentration based.

Monks can stunning strike to instantly break that concentration without prompting con checks, as incapacitated automatically makes all concentrations fail. Not to mention monks can also attack multiple times, allowing them to swiftly force clerics do multiple con saves for concentration even without resorting to stunning, just gonna need a single fail among the many hits.

Speaking of which, many channel divinity with sustained duration and effects also tend to end when stunned.

J.C.

2021-02-02, 12:08 AM

Dork_Forge

2021-02-02, 12:47 AM

Here's something for the Divine Intervention base to consider:

There is no guarantee that the ability will even be available.

When you use it, you have to wait 7 days to use it again. This is very unusual, but it's a very powerful ability and let's face it, not a core part of the Cleric kit balance wise (you can argue but you're denying the Cleric their capstone! But it's the nature of that ability and quite frankly a draw since the Monk's capstone has no way of being relevant at all).

Witty Username

2021-02-02, 01:34 AM

Dork_Forge

2021-02-02, 01:42 AM

If the monk is using kiting, is it fair to use the chase rules, along with appropriate complications to the environment? Probably favors the monk but still a factor.
Also would this tactic take long enough for control weather to be a factor?
I think an animate dead army could work decently to eat up a monks arrows and exhaustion level.

Besides this clearly being combat, the Monk is not trying to get away so I can't see a reason to use the chase rules. If you did shift into chasing, the Monk would crush the Cleric since they can afford to not dash at all and still have a superior speed to the majority of Cleric builds.

x3n0n

2021-02-02, 11:01 AM

I decided this was fun enough to justify it.

Assumptions:
* your original stats (Monk THB and ki DC of +11 and 19, Cleric AC and Con-save bonus of 22 and +9),

<snip>

Among 1000 trials:
<snip>
Assuming 163 HP (+3 Con, no Tough, Hill Dwarves, Death Ward, Half Orc, etc), the Cleric survived the first round of stunlock 61 percent of the time.

Perl script for one simulation available on request.

I found a bug this morning that was previously inflating the damage done.

After fixing the bug and using those Cleric stats (AC 22, +9 to save against stun, 163 HP), the Cleric escaped stun with 1 or more HP about 73% of the time (not 61% as originally posted).

That was vanilla Monk with no subclass abilities, pure unarmed strikes, favoring ki-preservation over Flurry of Blows.
With the Monk choosing to always Flurry, the Cleric escaped about 69% of the time.

Jon talks a lot

2021-02-02, 11:23 AM

I found a bug this morning that was previously inflating the damage done.

After fixing the bug and using those Cleric stats (AC 22, +9 to save against stun, 163 HP), the Cleric escaped stun with 1 or more HP about 73% of the time (not 61% as originally posted).

That was vanilla Monk with no subclass abilities, pure unarmed strikes, favoring ki-preservation over Flurry of Blows.
With the Monk choosing to always Flurry, the Cleric escaped about 69% of the time.

I think its fair to say that this significantly increases the odds of the cleric, but I still think the monk wins because what can the cleric really do to kill the monk? There isn't all that much.

Jon talks a lot

2021-02-02, 11:24 AM

Here's something for the Divine Intervention base to consider:

There is no guarantee that the ability will even be available.

At this point, you are just giving advantages to the monk. Its already unnecessary, since we know the monk is going to win anyways.

Eldariel

2021-02-02, 11:41 AM

Duel implies a one-on-one. Not a "Me and my minions versus you," situation.

If your class features (spells, class abilities, etc.) produce underlings, obviously you should have access to those. Otherwise you're just banning a list of spells for no reason, which is obviously not a reasonable comparison anymore. Now things you can buy with gold, things you can talk to help you, etc. obviously don't fit but if you can literally cast a spell or use a class feature to "Get a thing to help you", there's no question that this should be allowed if you want a valid comparison.

In other words: Ban class feature-produced minions if you want but that makes the whole comparison invalid since you aren't comparing the classes as a whole anymore. For the same reason, obviously Cleric has Divine Intervention but that's kinda hard to rule on so we can just go split it into "Cleric has a good Divine Intervention and wins" or "Cleric has a bad one/doesn't have one and has to fight it out."

At this point, you are just giving advantages to the monk. Its already unnecessary, since we know the monk is going to win anyways.

Huh? The number seemed to put Monk's best case scenario at ~29% chance of killing the Cleric in melee, even if they win the Initiative (assuming Cleric has Res: Con, which given Clerics want to maintain their Concentration they will 100% have). They need to land iterative hits and keep the stunlock going long enough to kill, potentially through Aid/Death Ward-type effects. That's far from trivial.

Monk's best chance is kiting. Aside from kiting (against which summons are still good), Monk needs to get a flurry down and keep the Cleric stunned or they'll just get outsustained. Monk without ki has no chance, I think we can agree (though if the arena is infinite, he might be able to escape).

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 11:46 AM

I think its fair to say that this significantly increases the odds of the cleric, but I still think the monk wins because what can the cleric really do to kill the monk? There isn't all that much.

Arcana cleric force cage (without gaps) the monk, no save. Monk can't escape. Their astral projection's got an hour cast time, which is as long as force cage lasts, but you'll be done long before then.
Piles up dirt around and then on top of the force cage using Mold Earth. 5' cube per round, you have it surrounded in a minute or two.
Then surrounds it with wall of stone so the monk can't, somehow, dig their way out (though I think you'd need a burrow speed either way). Maybe add another layer of wall of stone for good measure, you've got the spell slots to burn and the time to do so.

Let the forcecage drop, the monk suffocates in dirt after 6-or-so minutes at most, and dies per suffocation rules. They don't need to eat or drink, but they do still need to breathe. A slow, ponderous, and not particularly effective way to kill in most situations, but for a duel it works just fine and there's no saves involved.

Gignere

2021-02-02, 12:28 PM

Arcana cleric force cage (without gaps) the monk, no save. Monk can't escape. Their astral projection's got an hour cast time, which is as long as force cage lasts, but you'll be done long before then.
Piles up dirt around and then on top of the force cage using Mold Earth. 5' cube per round, you have it surrounded in a minute or two.
Then surrounds it with wall of stone so the monk can't, somehow, dig their way out (though I think you'd need a burrow speed either way). Maybe add another layer of wall of stone for good measure, you've got the spell slots to burn and the time to do so.

Let the forcecage drop, the monk suffocates in dirt after 6-or-so minutes at most, and dies per suffocation rules. They don't need to eat or drink, but they do still need to breathe. A slow, ponderous, and not particularly effective way to kill in most situations, but for a duel it works just fine and there's no saves involved.

I mean if you’re going to use Arcana cleric you can even wish simulacrum the monk and just stunlock the monk back. Although the monk might be able to beat his own simulacrum that would likely leave him weak enough to be unable to beat the cleric already.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 12:33 PM

At this point, you are just giving advantages to the monk. Its already unnecessary, since we know the monk is going to win anyways.

If we knew that for certain the discussion wouldn't be ongoing still, the consensus is Monk leaning, sure, but there are several strategies for the Cleric that seem plausible to win.

JNAProductions

2021-02-02, 12:40 PM

If we knew that for certain the discussion wouldn't be ongoing still, the consensus is Monk leaning, sure, but there are several strategies for the Cleric that seem plausible to win.

Yeah, it's not a slam-dunk for either side.

Just looking at resource usage, the Cleric SHOULD have an advantage, as they have long rest resources as compared to the Monk's short rest resources, but Stunning Strike is brutal, and the Monks mobility helps a lot.

Hael

2021-02-02, 12:51 PM

Count me as a bit of a skeptic about the monks chances in a cage fight (where we don’t play the hide and kite games). Especially at early lvls, bc of the lack of ki. There’s like an intermediate regime where I think they get the advantage say lvl 6-8 and then it becomes a problem again with summons.

Against subclasses like Twilight, there are other particularly hard problems bc of their adv to initiative rolls and potential flight speed (thus no stunning strike rolls).

It’s definitely not a done deal and I could see a pretty balanced distribution of fight wins vs loss (where most fights are of the form: cleric pulls a great comeback win vs monk takes no damage)

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 12:56 PM

I think a summon is probably the best way yeah, on the dive bombing I think that would be countered by a fair few things potentially open to a Monk in question (obviosuly without defining a Monk there's not certainties):

-Whip build, at this level it's a very strong option
-Way of the Astral Self
-Bugbear Monks

Nitpick: whip doesn't help because it's not a magic whip (unless you're a Kensei, who could just use bows anyway). Ki-empowered Strikes only makes your unarmed attacks magical, not your weapons.

Technically Bugbear might not help either because by strict RAW ("RAW" is not a compliment) it doesn't work on someone else's turn. "When you make a melee attack on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal." But in real life any DM who enforces THAT is dumb. Other races like Aarakocra and winged Tiefling also work, and subclasses like Shadow Monk work for keeping away from the Couatl long enough for duration to expire (and if course any monk at all might be able to Hide in darkness and then manage to get the jump on it, depending on terrain).

So that gives us Astral Self, Kensei, maybe Shadow, Bugbears, and flying races as monks who aren't vulnerable to the summon tactic, a tactic which is best understood as a long-ranged counter to kiting by the monk. So what this means is in effect that e.g. a Kensei in open terrain could definitely kite a generic cleric (no particular domain) to death even if I'm playing the cleric, because my best idea doesn't work against Kensei. Also I'm ignoring Divine Intervention still as too NPC- and DM-dependent for a duel.

But it's the nature of that ability and quite frankly a draw since the Monk's capstone has no way of being relevant at all.

Nitpick: if you're using DMG Speed Factor Initiative or anything like it, the monk's capstone TECHNICALLY grants them unlimited ki (4 ki per round every round). That just shows how poorly written the capstone is that it varies so wildly in strength, but I just thought I'd mention that it COULD be relevant.

It could also be relevant even under PHB initiative if the monk is doing hit-and-run, if the DM decides that the runs (e.g. two to ten minutes apart) count as different combats.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-02-02, 01:01 PM

Its already unnecessary, since we know the monk is going to win anyways.
❓ We don't know that with any credible amount certainty.
5e is "swingy"....fail a Saving Throw at the wrong time, and the battle can be over.

Sunbeam and Sunburst are both Constitution Saving Throws and apply the Blinded condition. Decent potential counters to an XBE Kensai.

A successful Hold Person spell can negate a monk's Evasion as well as ensuring they automatically fail all Str & Dex Saving Throws and Ability checks. Of course all attacks within 5' of the monk are auto automatically critical hits.

A 1st level Inflict Wounds is doing 6d10 damage, an Upcast Inflict Wounds is doing more. Spiritual Weapon is also benefiting from automatic critical hits as well, if the spell effect is within 5' of the monk.

Blade Barrier grants 3/4 cover and places a wall that is 20' high. A monk that has not invested in Strength is using Step of the Wind, which is one more Ki point that is not being used for Stunning Strike or other Ki based powers.

Any cleric post TCoE might take the Shadow Touched Feat and know the Invisibility spell. This makes the duel more like a game of Battleship!, a game of attrition.

Power Word Heal is the ultimate Yo-Yo healing.

We don't even have a firm list of tactics and probability of success for either side. This is thread is really just one giant spitball of ideas....(in no way is that meant as a pejorative just pointing out we don't know, just suspect)

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 01:12 PM

We don't even have a firm list of tactics and probability of success for either side. This is thread is really just one giant spitball of ideas....(in no way is that meant as a pejorative just pointing out we don't know, just suspect)

Too true. The thread is a bit like "who would win in a chess match, white or black?" Most people would reasonably suspect that white has the edge, because they're always a half-tempo ahead, but it's incredibly easy to squander that fragile advantage. The primary factor is "who's playing and how good are they?"

mistajames

2021-02-02, 01:16 PM

Kind of depends on circumstances. Does the Cleric get pre-buffing? How far apart do they start? What are their subclasses? Magic items?

If we're talking about an Arcana cleric, they win easily, 10/10 times. Wish means they have a Simulacrum and a Contingency at minimum. Contingency means that winning initiative is irrelevant. Simulacrum guarantees that the Monk is outgunned. Pick any of a hundred ways that the Arcana cleric can kill the monk.

IMO, using standard equipment, the Cleric wins 9/10 times. Why? IMO because the Monk will be unable to kill the cleric before they get a round off.

Monk is probably winning initiative, all other things considered, because of 20 Dex. Cleric with 16 Con and Resilient has +9 to their Con save. A 20 Wis monk has a 19 DC, meaning the Cleric is saving on a 10+ (55% chance). If the Monk goes nova and wins initiative, is there a chance of chain stunning the Cleric to death? Yes, but not terribly likely.

Flurry + Stunning Strike x4 takes up 5 Ki/round (meaning, 5 rounds), but the actual number will be better because they might not always need to use all 4 stunning strikes in a round (because SS 1-3 successfully stun). My numbers come to an 87% chance to stun the Cleric using up to 4 stunning strikes, provided everything hits.

Assuming 16 Con and fixed HP, a Level 20 Cleric has 163 HP. A monk attack deals 1d10+5 damage base on a hit (average 10.5) with a +11 to-hit (9+ hits AC20, or 60%), not including crits. So the monk needs on average about 16 regular hits to kill your average Cleric. If they let the Cleric have a turn unmolested, they're probably going to make themselves invulnerable and buff up or heal to full (likely firing off a Heal, Holy Aura, Etherealness, etc. and buying themselves time to buff and heal up). I assume that, if the Cleric gets an action, barring some rules shenanigans, the monk is dying horribly.

Just looking at the numbers, it seems apparent to me that the Monk probably isn't going to permastun the Cleric long enough to kill him before the Cleric gets a round in and/or the Monk runs out of Ki. Without Ki/Stunning Strike, it's over for the Monk.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 01:29 PM

Assuming 16 Con and fixed HP, a Level 20 Cleric has 163 HP. A monk attack deals 1d10+5 damage base on a hit (average 10.5) with a +11 to-hit (9+ hits AC20, or 60%), not including crits. So the monk needs on average about 16 regular hits to kill your average Cleric. If they let the Cleric have a turn unmolested, they're probably going to make themselves invulnerable and buff up or heal to full (likely firing off a Heal, Holy Aura, Etherealness, etc. and buying themselves time to buff and heal up). I assume that, if the Cleric gets an action, barring some rules shenanigans, the monk is dying horribly.

Just looking at the numbers, it seems apparent to me that the Monk probably isn't going to permastun the Cleric long enough to kill him before the Cleric gets a round in and/or the Monk runs out of Ki. Without Ki/Stunning Strike, it's over for the Monk.

Might just be me, but based on the numbers, I'd say the (generic, no-subclass) monk shouldn't bet the farm on preventing the cleric from ever getting a turn. Instead, whittle away for a while (shoot arrows, or knock the cleric prone and attack a couple of times with advantage) and essentially dare the cleric to burn healing spells early. Save the repeated stunlock nova for when it's very likely actually finish them off.

This is somewhat similar to how the best time to Action Surge is not necessarily at the start of the fight per se--it's the first kill opportunity or the first major vulnerability, whichever comes first. If you're fighting a big bad monster and the monk stuns it or the Rogue paralyzes it with poison, ideally you'd like to still have your Action Surge available. Ditto if unexpected reinforcements show up (it's actually Cthulhu AND his daddy!).

Novaing early is simple but not optimal in a tough fight.

x3n0n

2021-02-02, 01:34 PM

Huh? The number seemed to put Monk's best case scenario at ~29% chance of killing the Cleric in melee, even if they win the Initiative (assuming Cleric has Res: Con, which given Clerics want to maintain their Concentration they will 100% have). They need to land iterative hits and keep the stunlock going long enough to kill, potentially through Aid/Death Ward-type effects. That's far from trivial.

Monk's best chance is kiting. Aside from kiting (against which summons are still good), Monk needs to get a flurry down and keep the Cleric stunned or they'll just get outsustained. Monk without ki has no chance, I think we can agree (though if the arena is infinite, he might be able to escape).

To be fair, that *is* "subclass-less" Monk vs AC 22 (abnormally high for medium-armored Cleric subclasses, yes?), and also doesn't attempt to use Focused Aim, which might help considerably, especially in round 1.

Many subclasses offer substantial improvements in this melee scenario (e.g. Open Hand, Long Death, Astral Self, Mercy, Kensei). In addition, if True Seeing and blindsight aren't already in effect, Empty Body's invisibility can make things a lot more advantageous for the Monk, even if stun is escaped.

Shadow Monk also offers the high-reward possiblity of Silence, although the action economy isn't great--how to silence and reliably immobilize in the same round?

A hybrid approach doesn't seem bad either: attempt stunlock, then fall back on ki-less or low-ki kiting if necessary, having gained a substantial HP lead. (Edit: or vice versa, attempting to whittle them down with non-stun tactics first, if we don't think the Cleric "just wins" by getting a turn.)

Gignere

2021-02-02, 01:50 PM

Might just be me, but based on the numbers, I'd say the (generic, no-subclass) monk shouldn't bet the farm on preventing the cleric from ever getting a turn. Instead, whittle away for a while (shoot arrows, or knock the cleric prone and attack a couple of times with advantage) and essentially dare the cleric to burn healing spells early. Save the repeated stunlock nova for when it's very likely actually finish them off.

This is somewhat similar to how the best time to Action Surge is not necessarily at the start of the fight per se--it's the first kill opportunity or the first major vulnerability, whichever comes first. If you're fighting a big bad monster and the monk stuns it or the Rogue paralyzes it with poison, ideally you'd like to still have your Action Surge available. Ditto if unexpected reinforcements show up (it's actually Cthulhu AND his daddy!).

Novaing early is simple but not optimal in a tough fight.

I don’t know I’ve seen action surge totally change the direction of many BBEG fights by taking out greater than 1/2 the hps of the BBEG. It really limits the DM’s options and the type of action the BBEG can do. Literally the DM would say damn if the BM Sharpshooter didn’t do that crazy alpha strike the fight might have been more interesting multiple times.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 01:50 PM

Shadow Monk also offers the high-reward possiblity of Silence, although the action economy isn't great--how to silence and reliably immobilize in the same round?

If using Tasha's Ki Fueled Strikes you get to Silence and Stunning Strike in the same turn, plus an opportunity attack if they try to move out of the Silence (assuming no Disengage because they wouldn't get to cast action-cast spells). That's fairly reliable.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 01:53 PM

So for the cleric team, what's your plan if you get stunned into a free grapple and prone inside a shadow monk silence? Since the cleric side is using subclass based arguments so much, and really haven't actually seen the monk subs specifically addressed just kinda thrown out vaguely.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 01:54 PM

Might just be me, but based on the numbers, I'd say the (generic, no-subclass) monk shouldn't bet the farm on preventing the cleric from ever getting a turn. Instead, whittle away for a while (shoot arrows, or knock the cleric prone and attack a couple of times with advantage) and essentially dare the cleric to burn healing spells early. Save the repeated stunlock nova for when it's very likely actually finish them off.

This is somewhat similar to how the best time to Action Surge is not necessarily at the start of the fight per se--it's the first kill opportunity or the first major vulnerability, whichever comes first. If you're fighting a big bad monster and the monk stuns it or the Rogue paralyzes it with poison, ideally you'd like to still have your Action Surge available. Ditto if unexpected reinforcements show up (it's actually Cthulhu AND his daddy!).

Novaing early is simple but not optimal in a tough fight.

I don't think that the Monk has a choice in the matter. Monk gives them a turn. Cleric casts Etherealness, and then drops Gate, Conjure Celestial, Planar Ally, or Regenerate or whatever else they have.

The Cleric 20 also has access to one guaranteed Divine Intervention.

Worst case scenario, I don't see the Monk outlasting the Cleric. My guess is that the Monk runs out of Ki before the Cleric runs out of spells. After that, the Cleric just uses Spirit Guardians/Spiritual Weapons or a Save or Die and wins.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 01:55 PM

To be fair, that *is* "subclass-less" Monk vs AC 22 (abnormally high for medium-armored Cleric subclasses, yes?), and also doesn't attempt to use Focused Aim, which might help considerably, especially in round 1.

22 AC (I'm sticking to Arcana Cleric) would mean a +2 armour and a +1 shield (or vice versa). Personally I think no magic items on either side is the more reasonable position to take for things like this.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-02, 01:57 PM

At this point, you are just giving advantages to the monk. Its already unnecessary, since we know the monk is going to win anyways.

I'm not giving any advantages to the Monk, I'm providing a mechanical counterpoint to the idea that the Cleric will get whatever they want from Divine Intervention.

And whilst I think the Monk has the edge, the winner certainly isn't clear.

Arcana cleric force cage (without gaps) the monk, no save. Monk can't escape. Their astral projection's got an hour cast time, which is as long as force cage lasts, but you'll be done long before then.
Piles up dirt around and then on top of the force cage using Mold Earth. 5' cube per round, you have it surrounded in a minute or two.
Then surrounds it with wall of stone so the monk can't, somehow, dig their way out (though I think you'd need a burrow speed either way). Maybe add another layer of wall of stone for good measure, you've got the spell slots to burn and the time to do so.

Let the forcecage drop, the monk suffocates in dirt after 6-or-so minutes at most, and dies per suffocation rules. They don't need to eat or drink, but they do still need to breathe. A slow, ponderous, and not particularly effective way to kill in most situations, but for a duel it works just fine and there's no saves involved.

If we're going to specific examples here, then Shadow Monks can just teleport out if there are any shadows in range, or a Shadar Kai/Eladrin can teleport out regardless.

Nitpick: whip doesn't help because it's not a magic whip (unless you're a Kensei, who could just use bows anyway). Ki-empowered Strikes only makes your unarmed attacks magical, not your weapons.

You don't need to damage the Coatl to Stunning Strike it though, and getting Stunned would make it lose Polymorph.

Technically Bugbear might not help either because by strict RAW ("RAW" is not a compliment) it doesn't work on someone else's turn. "When you make a melee attack on your turn, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal." But in real life any DM who enforces THAT is dumb. Other races like Aarakocra and winged Tiefling also work, and subclasses like Shadow Monk work for keeping away from the Couatl long enough for duration to expire (and if course any monk at all might be able to Hide in darkness and then manage to get the jump on it, depending on terrain).

I can see people sticking to RAW, but yeah personally that makes absolutely no sense.

So that gives us Astral Self, Kensei, maybe Shadow, Bugbears, and flying races as monks who aren't vulnerable to the summon tactic, a tactic which is best understood as a long-ranged counter to kiting by the monk. So what this means is in effect that e.g. a Kensei in open terrain could definitely kite a generic cleric (no particular domain) to death even if I'm playing the cleric, because my best idea doesn't work against Kensei. Also I'm ignoring Divine Intervention still as too NPC- and DM-dependent for a duel.

I don't think the Cleric really loses out by not having DI, I don't think it occupies much design space up until the capstone, and even then capstones are so all over the place that it'd only matter against a good capstone opponent (like an Artificer).

Nitpick: if you're using DMG Speed Factor Initiative or anything like it, the monk's capstone TECHNICALLY grants them unlimited ki (4 ki per round every round). That just shows how poorly written the capstone is that it varies so wildly in strength, but I just thought I'd mention that it COULD be relevant.

I think that is more showing that, whilst alternative intiatives are technically available, the RAW basegame only fully supports the default initiative.

It could also be relevant even under PHB initiative if the monk is doing hit-and-run, if the DM decides that the runs (e.g. two to ten minutes apart) count as different combats.

I can see attacks that far apart being counted as different combats, but I don't think that is likely to happen (or outright be allowed) in PvP since it opens up a bunch of issues. For example, the base Monk's speed is high enough that they can just run away and re-engage on their own terms whenever they like, making winning initiative pretty much pointless for the Cleric.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 02:02 PM

22 AC (I'm sticking to Arcana Cleric) would mean a +2 armour and a +1 shield (or vice versa). Personally I think no magic items on either side is the more reasonable position to take for things like this.

Agreed, otherwise monk is probably looking at eldritch claw tattoo at least which is a big dps bump, possibly also a big giant belt and /or the blood fury tat or whatever it's called... But ya, best to go with no items in these or that's a whole new house of worms to open and address.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 02:06 PM

If we're going to specific examples here, then Shadow Monks can just teleport out if there are any shadows in range, or a Shadar Kai/Eladrin can teleport out regardless.

Shadow monks can't teleport out even if there are shadows. From the discussion we had earlier, monk powers aren't magical effects unless they say so explicitly. Shadow monk's teleport says:

Shadow Step

At 6th level, you gain the ability to step from one shadow into another. When you are in dim light or darkness, as a bonus action you can teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness. You then have advantage on the first melee attack you make before the end of the turn.

Making it, by the apparent rules, non-magical teleportation. And Forcecage says:

A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means.

And even if you DO grant a shadow monk the ability to teleport out, they need to beat a cha-save. Most monks don't have the stats to spare, so it'll be a +5 or +6 at best, vs. a cleric's 19 DC. On average, they don't make it, and you can then wall of stone, cutting off line of sight before their next turn's attempt (though in the case of Shadar Kai/Eladrin, there is no second attempt).

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 02:07 PM

If we're locking in particular builds made specifically for this, I'd probably lock in shadar Kai way of shadow with alert for this one.

Eldariel

2021-02-02, 02:07 PM

To be fair, that *is* "subclass-less" Monk vs AC 22 (abnormally high for medium-armored Cleric subclasses, yes?), and also doesn't attempt to use Focused Aim, which might help considerably, especially in round 1.

Many subclasses offer substantial improvements in this melee scenario (e.g. Open Hand, Long Death, Astral Self, Mercy, Kensei). In addition, if True Seeing and blindsight aren't already in effect, Empty Body's invisibility can make things a lot more advantageous for the Monk, even if stun is escaped.

Shadow Monk also offers the high-reward possiblity of Silence, although the action economy isn't great--how to silence and reliably immobilize in the same round?

A hybrid approach doesn't seem bad either: attempt stunlock, then fall back on ki-less or low-ki kiting if necessary, having gained a substantial HP lead. (Edit: or vice versa, attempting to whittle them down with non-stun tactics first, if we don't think the Cleric "just wins" by getting a turn.)

Aye, that's fair: the chance is probably substantially higher for a completely no-effort AC. Still, e.g. Empty Body takes an action as does True Seeing so it seems like they just trade turns to no effect except burning 4 ki and a 6th level slot (a trade which certainly favours the Cleric). Melee improvements are of course noteworthy but even there, I have a hard time seeing the Monk get a 50%+ chance of killing on a stun chain. And then we need to account for the case where the Monk loses Initiative (which is still a third of the time assuming no Alert, Lucky or such), and the case where the Monk can't get a meaningful attack in due to starting range.

Overall, again, there are no procedures so we're stuck with a pretty meaningless conversation. If we had a solid starting point, we could discuss the probable actions and their results giving a reasonable probability distribution for every scenario to analyse the probability of victory given each action and counter. This enables triangulating the optimal action and reaction for each round.

However, again, things like the environment, arena size (or the existence or the lack of an arena), subclasses, feats, etc. matter a lot. Arcana Cleric for instance effortlessly crushes any Monk 100 fights out of 100 assuming their 9th level spell is Wish, simply due to the stupidity that high level spells contain. OTOH Shadow Monk and Kensei both have fearsome ranged prowess and mobility (depending on the arena), really challenging any Cleric to engage at 600' instead of 60' (some Clerics are better at it than others) with noteworthy kiting potential. And whether kiting is possible and what's the maximum range of engagement and what's the likely maximum line of sight and whether hiding places exist and so on and so forth. All of these and then some could be considered as booleans and then just repeat the analysis for every type of environment but that would of course be incredibly laborious and never comprehensive due to the infinite potential variety in environments. They could be placed in probability distribution, discarding rare enough environments: but again that's incredibly laborious. And the OP never gave us any guidelines on what kind of a fight they're actually looking for. The more restricted it is broadly, the less easily crushed the Monk gets.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 02:08 PM

Also just as a clarification, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the monk diamond should also grants a reroll, not just proficiency...

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 02:09 PM

Regarding trading empty body with true seeing, the monk wins that action trade because they also gain resistance to all but force damage

x3n0n

2021-02-02, 02:12 PM

Eldariel

2021-02-02, 02:14 PM

Regarding trading empty body with true seeing, the monk wins that action trade because they also gain resistance to all but force damage

They spend 4 of their precious pool of ki vs. a rather trivial 6th level slot. If even a 20 ki Monk is looking at 50% to stunlock the Cleric dead with 19 AC, that's going to be a rather massive dip in victory probability.

x3n0n

2021-02-02, 02:17 PM

Arcana Cleric for instance effortlessly crushes any Monk 100 fights out of 100 assuming their 9th level spell is Wish, simply due to the stupidity that high level spells contain.

Nit: 100 is a lot. Per above, assuming 163 HP, AC 19, Cleric within 60', and 50/50 initiative, the Monk still has roughly a 25% chance. :)

NB: the fatal stunlock generally consumes fewer than 15 ki anyway; 4-6 rounds of stunlock will do it.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 02:18 PM

They spend 4 of their precious pool of ki vs. a rather trivial 6th level slot. If even a 20 ki Monk is looking at 50% to stunlock the Cleric dead with 19 AC, that's going to be a rather massive dip in victory probability.

The ki factor is certainly something to consider. Frankly I wouldn't personally bother with it in a cage match when the first turn is better spent stun locking, but maybe if they're hunting each other. But the two abilities directly aren't a break even was my point. Meh.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 02:20 PM

Nit: 100 is a lot. Per above, assuming AC 19, Cleric within 60', and 50/50 initiative, the Monk still has roughly a 25% chance. :)

Which is a pretty good rate of success for the cleric I'd say!

Eldariel

2021-02-02, 02:20 PM

Nit: 100 is a lot. Per above, assuming AC 19, Cleric within 60', and 50/50 initiative, the Monk still has roughly a 25% chance. :)

Heh, well, if he has Contingency and Simulacrum and such, getting to attack gets a lot harder even starting within point blank range.

Dork_Forge

2021-02-02, 02:24 PM

Shadow monks can't teleport out even if there are shadows. From the discussion we had earlier, monk powers aren't magical effects unless they say so explicitly. Shadow monk's teleport says:

Making it, by the apparent rules, non-magical teleportation. And Forcecage says:

And even if you DO grant a shadow monk the ability to teleport out, they need to beat a cha-save. Most monks don't have the stats to spare, so it'll be a +5 or +6 at best, vs. a cleric's 19 DC. On average, they don't make it, and you can then wall of stone, cutting off line of sight before their next turn's attempt (though in the case of Shadar Kai/Eladrin, there is no second attempt).

I must have missed this, but I would love to see a convincing argument that teleportation isn't magical.

They spend 4 of their precious pool of ki vs. a rather trivial 6th level slot. If even a 20 ki Monk is looking at 50% to stunlock the Cleric dead with 19 AC, that's going to be a rather massive dip in victory probability.

Why do you think that halving pretty much all of the Cleric's damage is worth so little? The Cleric already doesn't have a clear path to victory (I've yet to read something that will actually kill the Monk, just lots of 'Divine Intervention, Wish for a Simulacrum' etc. ignoring that the Cleric chassis is very poorly equipped to actually kill the Monk to begin with.

Then there's also the value of making the Cleric burn a 6th level slot, why do you think a 6th level slot is so trivial?

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 02:34 PM

I must have missed this, but I would love to see a convincing argument that teleportation isn't magical.

Sage advice compendium on magical effects:

Sage Advice Compendium explains how to determine whether something is magical:

Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical? If you cast antimagic field, don armor of invulnerability, or use another feature of the game that protects against magical or nonmagical effects, you might ask yourself, “Will this protect me against a dragon’s breath?” The breath weapon of a typical dragon isn’t considered magical, so antimagic field won’t help you but armor of invulnerability will.

You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type. Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

Is it a magic item?
Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
Is it a spell attack?
Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
Does its description say it’s magical?

If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask ourselves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears nowhere in its description. Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings.

I've bolded the important section.

It's not a magic item, it's not a spell, nor does it reference a spell in the description. It is not a spell attack, it is not fueled by spell slots, and the description (posted above) does not say it's magical.

Thus, like a dragon's breath, a shadow monk's shadow step is not magical, and thus cannot bypass Forcecage.

If a DM wants to rule otherwise I wouldn't blame them for doing so, but that's the justification provided.

x3n0n

2021-02-02, 02:45 PM

Heh, well, if he has Contingency and Simulacrum and such, getting to attack gets a lot harder even starting within point blank range.

Yes.

Anything that can be done in advance is a significant advantage to that side, and a Cleric has much better options for that than I think a Monk does (just looking at class features).

Any way to get an ally (and maintain it without concentration) is really strong against a solo attacker that relies on destroying single-target action economy. (Quelle surprise?)

Edit: Other particularly strong effects:
* Foresight (combos well to "actually win", giving advantage on attacks with things like Spiritual Weapon and Inflict Sounds) (oops, not a cleric spell),
* Burst healing to undo multiple rounds' worth of damage at a time.

Eldariel

2021-02-02, 02:59 PM

Why do you think that halving pretty much all of the Cleric's damage is worth so little? The Cleric already doesn't have a clear path to victory (I've yet to read something that will actually kill the Monk, just lots of 'Divine Intervention, Wish for a Simulacrum' etc. ignoring that the Cleric chassis is very poorly equipped to actually kill the Monk to begin with.

Then there's also the value of making the Cleric burn a 6th level slot, why do you think a 6th level slot is so trivial?

It's relatively less important, because Cleric has:
2/2/1/1/1 slots + divine intervention

vs.

Monk's 20 ki.

Monk uses those 20 ki for literally everything. The class just doesn't do much without them. That's 1/5th of the Monk's ki gone. Meanwhile a 6th level slot is 1/7th of the Cleric's high level resources gone, where Cleric's options are already far more resource efficient (in that a single high level spell can potentially carry through the encounter) and they of course have a host of other resources. And 6th level slot is the least of the high level resources. It seems highly unlikely that a Cleric would need to burn through all 7 slots to defeat the Monk.

And as you probably notice, there's no clear path to victory for the Monk either. 20th level characters aren't that simple. The most commonly suggested one is the Monk's stun chain but that's non-trivial to start even if the fight starts close and the Monk wins Initiative, and highly unreliable in any other scenario. And even if successful, victory is far from a guarantee while failure burns basically all the Monk's Ki, which makes further fighting basically impossible. As Max said, the Monk's best chance is probably to save the stun attempt for a point where the Cleric is already damaged, but that has the issue of giving the Cleric a turn which can involve a vast number of different things basically all of which make that plan either much harder to pull off or straight-up unfeasible.

Hael

2021-02-02, 03:06 PM

This thread seems to assume different levels, different builds, different terrain features, different rules (prebuffs or not) and so forth. I feel like i can make this a close fight or a route (for either sides) depending on what knobs I tweak.

Want to make this a monk slaughter? Allow prebuffing, and make it a 20 foot cube cage. Want to kill the cleric? Make this an open terrain seek and destroy with no time frame.

Even then, some of this apparently comes down to getting some good rolls. I've played DnD for too many years not to underestimate how much that plays.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 03:28 PM

Someone mentioned listing an actual build for a monk to beat.

Hill Dwarf Arcana Cleric 20. 8/14/18/10/20/8. AC = 19 (Half-Plate and Shield). HP = 243

Feats: 4: +2 Wis, 8: +2 Wis, 12: Resilient (Con), 16: War Caster, 19: Tough (+40 HP)

Arcana Cleric bonus spells: Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, Mind Blank, Wish. Divine Intervention 100% (1 use).

Buffs (8+ Hours): Simulacrum, Contingency (Cast Revivify on self at end of current turn on death), Death Ward.

25 Spells Prepared (+Domains):
1: Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds.
2: Lesser Restoration, Hold Person, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Silence.
3: Spirit Guardians, Water Walk, Tongues.
4: Banishment, Death Ward, Guardian of Faith.
5: Greater Restoration, Summon Celestial.
6: Heal, Heroes' Feast, Planar Ally.
7: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial.
8: Holy Aura.
9: Mass Heal.

I'm not getting into shenanigans like Ravnica spells, Dragonmarks, or magic items. Just a simple, viable Cleric build. Can one of the naysayers please tell me how you're going to reliably beat this as a monk without shenanigans like placing the match in a permanent AMF.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 03:30 PM

And as you probably notice, there's no clear path to victory for the Monk either. 20th level characters aren't that simple. The most commonly suggested one is the Monk's stun chain but that's non-trivial to start even if the fight starts close and the Monk wins Initiative, and highly unreliable in any other scenario. And even if successful, victory is far from a guarantee while failure burns basically all the Monk's Ki, which makes further fighting basically impossible. As Max said, the Monk's best chance is probably to save the stun attempt for a point where the Cleric is already damaged, but that has the issue of giving the Cleric a turn which can involve a vast number of different things basically all of which make that plan either much harder to pull off or straight-up unfeasible.

I think we're at the point where I'd like to see some playtesting. I don't care so much about the die rolls, but I'd like to see some builds action declarations in a specific context, like a haunted manor where all existing enchantments are broken upon entry (i.e. have already been broken when the duel starts, but you can start casting new ones now) and only one character gets to leave alive.

Proposed rules of engagement:

Two players square off. They know who they're playing against but not details of each other's builds (or spell lists, etc.) or strategies. Both players email me their builds + intended tactics, described in enough detail for a competent DM to resolve them (e.g. "if XYZ then I hide somewhere and cast Conjure Celestial (Couatl) and send it out to seek and destroy the monk" is enough detail, although you could add stuff like "if discovered I retaliate with Plane Shift and then I attempt to Nimble Escape (Hide) unless the enemy obviously has darkvision").

I then reveal both builds + strategies simultaneously in a forum post, and we discuss whether one obvious upper hand or not. If it seems in doubt then we start rolling dice (in some synchronous medium, e.g. Gmail chat, so that it doesn't take ages) and see what "actually" happens. If the player wants to take control of execution for the actual die-rolling that's fine, as long as it's within the bounds of the outlined strategy. E.g. if you as the monk player are not happy with how well I execute "and then I stun him to death" in terms of when to Flurry vs. save ki, you can take control and say how many Flurries to make each round, but you can't change your strategy and decide to cast Silence at that point, because the other guy has already revealed his strategy.

Optionally, repeat with two more players and/or a different arbitrator/DM.

Who wants to volunteer as a player under this protocol, and which class do you want?

==========================================

Someone mentioned listing an actual build for a monk to beat.

Hill Dwarf Arcana Cleric 20. 8/14/18/10/20/8. AC = 19 (Half-Plate and Shield). HP = 243

Feats: 4: +2 Wis, 8: +2 Wis, 12: Resilient (Con), 16: War Caster, 19: Tough (+40 HP)

Arcana Cleric bonus spells: Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, Mind Blank, Wish. Divine Intervention 100% (1 use).

Buffs (8+ Hours): Simulacrum, Contingency (Cast Revivify on self at end of current turn on death), Death Ward.

25 Spells Prepared (+Domains):
1: Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds.
2: Lesser Restoration, Hold Person, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Silence.
3: Spirit Guardians, Water Walk, Tongues.
4: Banishment, Death Ward, Guardian of Faith.
5: Greater Restoration, Summon Celestial.
6: Heal, Heroes' Feast, Planar Ally.
7: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial.
8: Holy Aura.
9: Mass Heal.

I'm not getting into shenanigans like Ravnica spells, Dragonmarks, or magic items. Just a simple, viable Cleric build. Can one of the naysayers please tell me how you're going to reliably beat this as a monk without shenanigans like placing the match in a permanent AMF.

Depends. In open terrain, the obvious answer is "Kensei Sharpshooter: kill the dwarf to death with arrows from a long bow from 200 yards away".

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 03:32 PM

It's relatively less important, because Cleric has:
2/2/1/1/1 slots + divine intervention

vs.

Monk's 20 ki.

it's worth noting that with the Cleric's limited amount of high level spells, if they choose poorly for those spells and the Monk overcomes them, the Monk begins to become more and more favored despite both of them expending resources to do so.

Monk's fall back on their basic tools, which are much better than the Cleric's. Cleric's fall back on lower level spells and cantrips, which range from bad to entirely ineffective.

I think Max is definitely correct, a Cleric finds their best chances in summons because it gives them a useful tool from their high level spells that can't be easily overcome by the Monk. If the Cleric casts any high level spells that don't have lasting impact they're on a quick path to losing.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 03:38 PM

Depends. In open terrain, the obvious answer is "Kensei Sharpshooter: kill the dwarf to death with arrows from a long bow from 200 yards away".

Even that doesn't really cut it. If the Cleric fails to kill the first time, Etherealness, long rest, and try again.

Or Forcecage the monk, and beat them to death.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 03:46 PM

Even that doesn't really cut it. If the Cleric fails to kill the first time, Etherealness, long rest, and try again.

Or Forcecage the monk, and beat them to death.

Forcecage's range is 100', not 200 yards, and the dwarf's movement speed is a pathetic 25'. No chance of getting close enough for that.

Fleeing via Etherealness is the same as the monk fleeing with their superior movement rate: either the duel is defined so that fleeing = losing, or else the duel is probably a stalemate since either can flee the other. I don't buy "long rest, and try again" since nothing actually prevents the monk from stashing their physical body somewhere and then hunting you down on the Ethereal Plane (via Empty Body).

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 03:46 PM

Someone mentioned listing an actual build for a monk to beat.

Can one of the naysayers please tell me how you're going to reliably beat this as a monk without shenanigans like placing the match in a permanent AMF.

Tashas Shadar Kai shadow monk with alert and skill expert athletics. Very likely to go first, quite likely to stun first round, especially if using ki to boost accuracy. Follow up with irresistible grapple either second attack or next round, and prone at next earliest convenience while keeping stun. After stun all attacks are advantage and even without stun once cleric is prone, so twice as many crits added to damage. Even if eventually stun fails, what are you going to do from grappled and prone in silence? (honest question, not patronizing. Interwebs and tone don't always mix)

mistajames

2021-02-02, 03:49 PM

Tashas Shadar Kai shadow monk with alert and skill expert athletics. Very likely to go first, quite likely to stun first round, especially if using ki to boost accuracy. Follow up with irresistible grapple either second attack or next round, and prone at next earliest convenience while keeping stun. After stun all attacks are advantage and even without stun once cleric is prone, so twice as many crits added to damage. Even if eventually stun fails, what are you going to do from grappled and prone in silence? (honest question, not patronizing. Interwebs and tone don't always mix)

What am I going to do while grappled and prone in silence?

Divine Intervention. Or just let him kill me and burn all his Ki (Revivify kicks in) and then Divine Intervention.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 03:50 PM

Even that doesn't really cut it. If the Cleric fails to kill the first time, Etherealness, long rest, and try again.

Or Forcecage the monk, and beat them to death.

Forcecage has a 100' range, which makes it difficult for the monk to get caught by it if they're actively kiting.

However, assuming no time limit on the fight, you could simply let them wear out their ammunition (which is not infinite), heal in between and then etherealness->long rest and reset. It might takes days for them to use up all the ammunition, depending on how much the monk starts with, but if you're stuck in the theoretical arena and not allowed to leave via, eg. plane shift or simply running away, a cleric can heal through the damage and win the war of attrition. Eventually.

Tashas Shadar Kai shadow monk with alert and skill expert athletics. Very likely to go first, quite likely to stun first round, especially if using ki to boost accuracy. Follow up with irresistible grapple either second attack or next round, and prone at next earliest convenience while keeping stun. After stun all attacks are advantage and even without stun once cleric is prone, so twice as many crits added to damage. Even if eventually stun fails, what are you going to do from grappled and prone in silence? (honest question, not patronizing. Interwebs and tone don't always mix)

Post a full build if you're providing an example, dumping two feats on alert/skill expert is gonna presumably hit your ASIs a bit, especially if you're taking a race that doesn't boost both dex and wis.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 03:51 PM

Forcecage has a 100' range, which makes it difficult for the monk to get caught by it if they're actively kiting.

However, assuming no time limit on the fight, you could simply let them wear out their ammunition (which is not infinite), heal in between and then etherealness->long rest and reset. It might takes days for them to use up all the ammunition, depending on how much the monk starts with, but if you're stuck in the theoretical arena and not allowed to leave via, eg. plane shift or simply running away, a cleric can heal through the damage and win the war of attrition. Eventually.

Also, the monk has no way to actually see you while you are Ethereal. Use Etherealness to get within 100' and then Forcecage.

You have at least 4 castings of Etherealness between you and your Simmy. Ezpz.

JNAProductions

2021-02-02, 03:53 PM

Forcecage has a 100' range, which makes it difficult for the monk to get caught by it if they're actively kiting.

However, assuming no time limit on the fight, you could simply let them wear out their ammunition (which is not infinite), heal in between and then etherealness->long rest and reset. It might takes days for them to use up all the ammunition, depending on how much the monk starts with, but if you're stuck in the theoretical arena and not allowed to leave via, eg. plane shift or simply running away, a cleric can heal through the damage and win the war of attrition. Eventually.

Unless they're a SUN SOUL MONK! They can pop 2d6 radiant damage per failed Con Save at 170'. (150' range, 20' radius AoE.)

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 03:55 PM

What am I going to do while grappled and prone in silence?

Divine Intervention. Or just let him kill me and burn all his Ki (Revivify kicks in) and then Divine Intervention.

Well first it's hard to ask your God for something if you can't speak. Second, after revivify kicks in, you are still in the exact same place, grappled prone in silence...and who says he had to use all his Ki if you were never going to escape the silence anyway?

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 03:57 PM

Forcecage has a 100' range, which makes it difficult for the monk to get caught by it if they're actively kiting.

However, assuming no time limit on the fight, you could simply let them wear out their ammunition (which is not infinite), heal in between and then etherealness->long rest and reset. It might takes days for them to use up all the ammunition, depending on how much the monk starts with, but if you're stuck in the theoretical arena and not allowed to leave via, eg. plane shift or simply running away, a cleric can heal through the damage and win the war of attrition. Eventually.

Post a full build if you're providing an example, dumping two feats on alert/skill expert is gonna presumably hit your ASIs a bit, especially if you're taking a race that doesn't boost both dex and wis.

Not if using tashas, as I said. Start 17 dex 14 con 16 wis, max dex/wis using skill expert on dex

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 04:02 PM

Well first it's hard to ask your God for something if you can't speak. Second, after revivify kicks in, you are still in the exact same place, grappled prone in silence...and who says he had to use all his Ki if you were never going to escape the silence anyway?

In fairness, it's completely undefined whether "imploring your god for aid" needs to be audible, the only defined requirement is that you use an action to do so.

JNAProductions

2021-02-02, 04:05 PM

In fairness, it's completely undefined whether "imploring your god for aid" needs to be audible, the only defined requirement is that you use an action to do so.

Yeah, I'd not require an audible plea. Mental is fine.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:05 PM

Well first it's hard to ask your God for something if you can't speak. Second, after revivify kicks in, you are still in the exact same place, grappled prone in silence...and who says he had to use all his Ki if you were never going to escape the silence anyway?

"Imploring your god" doesn't require speaking. You just use an action and it happens.

You are grappled, prone, and in silence, with 1 HP. but it is your turn. Use your action to implore your god to cast Etherealness. on yourself. Wish for a Simulacrum, heal to full, pop out and Forcecage and wreck face.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:08 PM

OK then what exactly would you ask for?

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:12 PM

You are grappled, prone, and in silence, with 1 HP. but it is your turn.

Dying/revivify doesn't actually remove stunned, another factor to consider. But granted if no longer stunned. As to force cage, blessing of the raven queen is likely to succeed with diamond soul, so now we're getting back into grappled /stunned in silence sans DI. Of course all these are going to come down to luck if the die, but DI with etherealness checks out as a potential answer to my original question, so thank you :)

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:15 PM

I also might nitpick about shadow step in force cage, especially if we are just hand waving 'calling' out to your God mentally. But meh.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 04:16 PM

"Imploring your god" doesn't require speaking. You just use an action and it happens.

You are grappled, prone, and in silence, with 1 HP. but it is your turn. Use your action to implore your god to cast Etherealness. on yourself. Wish for a Simulacrum, heal to full, pop out and Forcecage and wreck face.

A few questions/comments about the strategy:
-You're wishing in the Ethereal Plane right? Doesn't that mean the Simulacrum is created in the Ethereal Plane and doesn't have the option to leave it as an action like you do? They would need to use something like Plane Shift to join you in the fight.
-You use your action to leave the Ethereal Plane... meaning you don't have one when you come back. It's the Monk's turn now. What stops him from repeating what he'd just done?
-Your vision is limited to 60ft while in the Ethereal Plane. The Monk may not know exactly how you've disappeared but you can't sit down and heal as well as track them if they happen to set up an ambush against your possible return.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 04:17 PM

I also might nitpick about shadow step in force cage, especially if we are just hand waving 'calling' out to your God mentally. But meh.

I mean you can feel free to nitpick it, but it's following the sage advice compendium. Just like it's following RAW for divine intervention. Gods being able to hear silent prayer seems pretty appropriate to me idk.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:19 PM

A few questions/comments about the strategy:
-You're wishing in the Ethereal Plane right? Doesn't that mean the Simulacrum is created in the Ethereal Plane and doesn't have the option to leave it as an action like you do? They would need to use something like Plane Shift to join you in the fight.
-You use your action to leave the Ethereal Plane... meaning you don't have one when you come back. It's the Monk's turn now. What stops him from repeating what he'd just done?
-Your vision is limited to 60ft while in the Ethereal Plane. The Monk may not know exactly how you've disappeared but you can't sit down and heal as well as track them if they happen to set up an ambush against your possible return.

Was also going to check out the action economy of returning from ethereal, beat me to it thank you. And a shadow monk in particular would favor setting and succeeding at an ambush upon return, possibly with a readied action depending on circumstances. Overall though, I was mostly just curious how clerics would react to grapple silence. Any other plans to escape that if DI is down? Or is that the only trump card for that reusable play by the monk?

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 04:19 PM

However, assuming no time limit on the fight, you could simply let them wear out their ammunition (which is not infinite), heal in between and then etherealness->long rest and reset.

Note that you'll need to burn three 7th+ level spell slots per long rest after the first to get the full 24-hour duration.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:20 PM

I mean you can feel free to nitpick it, but it's following the sage advice compendium. Just like it's following RAW for divine intervention. Gods being able to hear silent prayer seems pretty appropriate to me idk.

Fair enough :) part of why shadar Kai is in play. Their teleportation is specifically magical. That and I just really love necrotic resistance and all the immunities they get...

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:24 PM

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 04:25 PM

Note that you'll need to burn three 7th+ level spell slots per long rest after the first to get the full 24-hour duration.

Sure, but if you're fighting a kensei sharpshooter and your tactic is specifically "wear out their ammunition over multiple days" then you don't need to spend those slots on anything else.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 04:26 PM

Was also going to check out the action economy of returning from ethereal, beat me to it thank you. And a shadow monk in particular would favor setting and succeeding at an ambush upon return, possibly with a readied action depending on circumstances. Overall though, I was mostly just curious how clerics would react to grapple silence. Any other plans to escape that if DI is down? Or is that the only trump card for that reusable play by the monk?

Wow. Until now I didn't realize it, but clerics have zero spells without Verbal components. A Silenced wizard can still cast Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Mental Prison, Steel Wind Strike, etc., but a Silenced cleric is just plain out of luck, spell-wise. Note to evil DM self...

Sure, but if you're fighting a kensei sharpshooter and your tactic is specifically "wear out their ammunition over multiple days" then you don't need to spend those slots on anything else.

What if you get ambushed by the monk during the middle of your long rest (thanks to Empty Body)? You can still return to the Prime Material plane with your action, but now you're down a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slot. You don't regret that at all?

Besides, even a Str 8 monk can easily carry enough ammunition for days worth of battle, since 20 arrows only weighs a pound and 5E has very generous encumbrance rules. 10 quivers (10 lb.) and 200 arrows (10 lb.) is only 1/6 of a Str 8 monk's carrying capacity, and half those arrows are recoverable after the cleric flees. If the rules of engagement are such that fleeing to the Ethereal plane does not end the duel, a monk could carry thousands of arrows into battle, at least by RAW, ridiculous as that sounds. In a more realistic ruleset, he couldn't do that, but he could use a sling and sling bullets and/or gathered stones to have effectively unlimited ammunition (can gather a lot of rocks while waiting 24 hours for the cleric to come back). So, by RAW you can't really use up all of his ammunition, and by more-realistic-than-RAW you also can't use up all of his ammunition, and you can't stop him from coming after you in the Ethereal Plane in the middle of your second long rest anyway... so I personally wouldn't want to rely on that plan. I don't think hiding out in the Ethereal improves your situation.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:29 PM

Wow. Until now I didn't realize it, but clerics have zero spells without Verbal components. A Silenced wizard can still cast Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Mental Prison, Steel Wind Strike, etc., but a Silenced cleric is just plain out of luck, spell-wise. Note to evil DM self...

:)

Part of why I'm trying to see if anyone else can come up with an option other than 'once per week strong capstone'. So if it's a lvl 19 match up rather than 20, thus far it seems like there is no answer.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:31 PM

:)

Part of why I'm trying to see if anyone else can come up with an option other than 'once per week strong capstone'. So if it's a lvl 19 match up rather than 20, thus far it seems like there is no answer.

Well, the other answer is "make sure you are properly buffed and you have your summons/planar bindings with you before you fight", but we're talking about starting with a 1v1.

EDIT: Telekinesis feat might also work. It's a strength saving throw vs your spellcasting DC.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:31 PM

Furthermore, kind of hard for the Shadow Monk to lay a trap if the Cleric/Simmy can see him the entire time, and he can't see them.

Kinda hard to see him if he's faster, can teleport, can turn invisible, is sneaky and the cleric has limited vision in ethereal plane ;)

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:32 PM

but we're talking about starting with a 1v1.

Granted, but yes.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:34 PM

Granted, but yes.

My point is, once you and your simmy start summoning in the Ethereal Plane and Plane Shifting back, it's not going to stay 1v1 for long.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:35 PM

Hehe I'm quite enjoying this thread, and ones like it. It's stuff like this which is exactly why I love monks, and especially shadar Kai monks. The draw for me is pretty much never being helpless. Maybe not always have the perfect answer, but with so many immunities and options, there's almost always at least a chance, without even needing much in the way of preparation. One of the biggest issues I used to struggle with was being swallowed whole. Now I have the ghost step tattoo to love. But I'm going off topic, excuse my sharing time tangent :)

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:38 PM

My point is, once you and your simmy start summoning in the Ethereal Plane and Plane Shifting back, it's not going to stay 1v1 for long.

The posted build didn't have plane shift prepared. If it were, sure things start to get more tricky.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:42 PM

The posted build didn't have plane shift prepared. If it were, sure things start to get more tricky.

7: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 04:42 PM

The posted build didn't have plane shift prepared. If it were, sure things start to get more tricky.

Yeah it does.

Hill Dwarf Arcana Cleric 20. 8/14/18/10/20/8. AC = 19 (Half-Plate and Shield). HP = 243

Feats: 4: +2 Wis, 8: +2 Wis, 12: Resilient (Con), 16: War Caster, 19: Tough (+40 HP)

Arcana Cleric bonus spells: Mass Suggestion, Forcecage, Mind Blank, Wish. Divine Intervention 100% (1 use).

Buffs (8+ Hours): Simulacrum, Contingency (Cast Revivify on self at end of current turn on death), Death Ward.

25 Spells Prepared (+Domains):
1: Healing Word, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds.
2: Lesser Restoration, Hold Person, Aid, Spiritual Weapon, Silence.
3: Spirit Guardians, Water Walk, Tongues.
4: Banishment, Death Ward, Guardian of Faith.
5: Greater Restoration, Summon Celestial.
6: Heal, Heroes' Feast, Planar Ally.
7: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial.
8: Holy Aura.
9: Mass Heal.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 04:43 PM

:)

Part of why I'm trying to see if anyone else can come up with an option other than 'once per week strong capstone'. So if it's a lvl 19 match up rather than 20, thus far it seems like there is no answer.

Well, of course there's the other answer: try to wriggle out of the grapple (Acrobatics +8ish for a Dex 14 cleric vs. Athletics +12ish for a Str 10ish Skill Expert monk isn't that lopsided), then run outside the silence zone (hoping you don't get stunned by the opportunity attack, and you might need to be a Tabaxi or Aarakocra or Mobile Wood Elf in order to have enough movement) and cast a bonus action spell like Sanctuary and hope that that is enough to prevent stun lock (especially if you have Defensive Duelist). The odds aren't good but they're not hopeless either.

And of course there's Freedom of Movement too if you can gain a round of tempo to precast it.

That's the best I've got right now.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:46 PM

My mistake, must have glanced right over it. I stand corrected :)

mistajames

2021-02-02, 04:48 PM

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:51 PM

So it would seem:

Preparation time favors the full caster, potentially heavily (no surprise)

Getting the drop favors the monk

'high level' meaning lvl 20 favors the cleric IF they can last through the initial stun lock

'high level' meaning anything less than 20, or if DI is not available due to once per 7 days favors the monk, potentially heavily.

Fair analysis thus far?

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:52 PM

Like I said, Telekinesis is a Strength saving throw for builds that use it. Probably +5 vs. DC19. No guarantee with Diamond Soul, but much better.

If it's already cast. If not?

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 04:53 PM

Well, of course there's the other answer: try to wriggle out of the grapple (Acrobatics +8ish for a Dex 14 cleric vs. Athletics +12ish for a Str 10ish Skill Expert monk isn't that lopsided), then run outside the silence zone (hoping you don't get stunned by the opportunity attack, and you might need to be a Tabaxi or Aarakocra or Mobile Wood Elf in order to have enough movement) and cast a bonus action spell like Sanctuary and hope that that is enough to prevent stun lock (especially if you have Defensive Duelist). The odds aren't good but they're not hopeless either.

And of course there's Freedom of Movement too if you can gain a round of tempo to precast it.

That's the best I've got right now.

Well, the Arcana Cleric we've got as the bar right now doesn't have Freedom of Movement or a background that would give them proficiency in Acrobatics since Cleric's don't have that option.

I'm not sure that planning against grapples really takes a whole lot of power away from the Cleric though so it's safe to assume they would have proficiency in a skill that would help with that, whether it's Athletics, Acrobatics or swapping a prepared spell for Freedom of Movement. I'd personally dump Cure Wounds for it.

J.C.

2021-02-02, 04:55 PM

Shapechange/True Polymorph into Phoenix or Leviathan wins it for the Arcana Cleric.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 04:59 PM

Well, the Arcana Cleric we've got as the bar right now doesn't have Freedom of Movement or a background that would give them proficiency in Acrobatics since Cleric's don't have that option.

I'm not sure that planning against grapples really takes a whole lot of power away from the Cleric though so it's safe to assume they would have proficiency in a skill that would help with that, whether it's Athletics, Acrobatics or swapping a prepared spell for Freedom of Movement. I'd personally dump Cure Wounds for it.

Yes, a cleric can be specifically built to counter a grapple monk. But statistically, most won't be built for it. This is where I'd net another point to monks, is that any old average shadow monk build will likely win initiative against any average cleric build not specially made to counter them, stun them first turn, then can proceed to grapple in silence beat down.

And then there's any old open hand monk following stun with QP. Death ward doesn't even stop that...

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:00 PM

Shapechange/True Polymorph into Phoenix or Leviathan wins it for the Arcana Cleric.

If prebuffed/survives the initial stun lock beat down, yes probably.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 05:01 PM

If it's already cast. If not?

I mean the Telekinetic feat (think that's what it's called).

Yes, a cleric can be specifically built to counter a grapple monk. But statistically, most won't be built for it. This is where I'd net another point to monks, is that any old average shadow monk build will likely win initiative against any average cleric build not specially made to counter them, stun them first turn, then can proceed to grapple in silence beat down.

And then there's any old open hand monk following stun with QP. Death ward doesn't even stop that...

My Cleric is pretty middle-of-the-road, and it will eat the grapple monk for breakfast if allowed its week-long prebuffs (Contingency). On average, you're not eating through 241 HP without the Cleric getting an action.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:03 PM

I mean the Telekinetic feat (think that's what it's called).

Ah misunderstood. Wasn't in the build (unless I skimmed over that too) but a good consideration!

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:06 PM

Are you referring to the revivify contingency or a different one? I believe someone previously ran the numbers, and it seemed not horrendously unrealistic to burn down that many hit points sans cleric turn. Not the best odds but certainly not the worst either.

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 05:11 PM

Well, the Arcana Cleric we've got as the bar right now doesn't have Freedom of Movement or a background that would give them proficiency in Acrobatics since Cleric's don't have that option.

Huh? Freedom of Movement is a cleric spell, and you can take Acrobatics with any background just by customizing it per RAW. You want to play a Noble with Acrobatics? Well, maybe your family has a nautical background and you've spent a lot of time at sea. (I wanted to say "castle by the seaside and you spent your childhood scaling the sea cliffs" but Acrobatics doesn't actually help with climbing AFAIK--it's a surprisingly useless skill for non-combatants, but "stay upright on a ship's rocking deck" is one of its canonical uses.)

Or maybe you're talking about a specific Cleric like the one posted by Mistajames? I can't remember if that was an Arcana Cleric or not... In any case, I was responding to scarytincan, not mistajames.

Are you referring to the revivify contingency or a different one? I believe someone previously ran the numbers, and it seemed not horrendously unrealistic to burn down that many hit points sans cleric turn. Not the best odds but certainly not the worst either.

Besides, once you're at 0 HP (or appear to be), the monk can do anything he wants to you including tie you up, take all of your equipment and armor and holy symbols, cut out your tongue, and sell you into slavery. Relying on Revivify to bring you back to life if you happen to die as well seems, well, suboptimal.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 05:17 PM

Or maybe you're talking about a specific Cleric like the one posted by Mistajames? I can't remember if that was an Arcana Cleric or not... In any case, I was responding to scarytincan, not mistajames.

I was talking about the one previously posted, and I feel that the two changes are broadly useful enough that a Cleric could be expected to have them regardless of whether or not they knew they'd be fighting this Monk.

I thought it was relevant to point that out at least, since I think the current "grapple the cleric strategy" came about in response to the detailed cleric build, on account of the mention and missing of it having Plane Shift prepared as a stalling strategy when they DI Etherealness.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:18 PM

mistajames

2021-02-02, 05:25 PM

Huh? Freedom of Movement is a cleric spell, and you can take Acrobatics with any background just by customizing it per RAW. You want to play a Noble with Acrobatics? Well, maybe your family has a nautical background and you've spent a lot of time at sea. (I wanted to say "castle by the seaside and you spent your childhood scaling the sea cliffs" but Acrobatics doesn't actually help with climbing AFAIK--it's a surprisingly useless skill for non-combatants, but "stay upright on a ship's rocking deck" is one of its canonical uses.)

Or maybe you're talking about a specific Cleric like the one posted by Mistajames? I can't remember if that was an Arcana Cleric or not... In any case, I was responding to scarytincan, not mistajames.

Besides, once you're at 0 HP (or appear to be), the monk can do anything he wants to you including tie you up, take all of your equipment and armor and holy symbols, cut out your tongue, and sell you into slavery. Relying on Revivify to bring you back to life if you happen to die as well seems, well, suboptimal.

You return to life the moment the Monk's turn ends. You get a turn, and you are not stunned. You use Divine Intervention.

And that's only if the Monk actually manages to permastun you.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:30 PM

You return to life the moment the Monk's turn ends. You get a turn, and you are not stunned. You use Divine Intervention.

And that's only if the Monk actually manages to permastun you.

Except if you were stunned when you died, you are still stunned when you return. This kinda thing recently came more into focus with the mercy monk raise dead specifying that it DOES remove conditions as well, something that has not been a thing prior...

On that note, mercy monk would be another good option, higher dps and can ki smite for crits.

GorogIrongut

2021-02-02, 05:30 PM

In my, relatively extensive, experience playing clerics, most of them are played in the frontline as a pseudo tank. Because Spirit Guardians... Which means they have as high an AC as they can get. And because most of their best spells are Concentration based, they will often have high Con, Res: Con, and/or Warcaster.

Because they have to be able to take hits and keep their magic up.

They will have a fair amount of HP, a high AC and a good Con Save. Before we even think about what spells they took.

Your best bet of winning with a monk is to go Shadow.

For a Cleric that's a little more open-ended. I see a lot of people talking Arcana. They would do well. I also see Forge, Twilight, and even Nature doing a good job against the Monk.

Of all the 1v1 combinations that I would like to see, it would be Shadow Monk vs Twilight Cleric.

ProsecutorGodot

2021-02-02, 05:32 PM

You return to life the moment the Monk's turn ends. You get a turn, and you are not stunned. You use Divine Intervention.

What are you setting the circumstances to to avoid the Monk having an opportunity to react?

Remember time is nebulous in combat (everybody shares the 6 seconds, acting simultaneously) so specifying it in seconds could mean that you revive during the Monk's turn, a death sentence if they have any remaining attacks or after your own turn giving the Monk opportunity to ready an action.

To be completely honest, I don't see how your Cleric could set a circumstance they have any comprehension of that guarantees this timing works, your Cleric can't set their contingent circumstance as "when the Monk kills me and ends his turn" because those are completely meta concepts.

Amnestic

2021-02-02, 05:35 PM

Except if you were stunned when you died, you are still stunned when you return. This kinda thing recently came more into focus with the mercy monk raise dead specifying that it DOES remove conditions as well, something that has not been a thing prior...

On that note, mercy monk would be another good option, higher dps and can ki smite for crits.

A condition lasts either until it is countered (the prone condition is countered by standing up, for example) or for a duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition.
- Appendix on conditions

You've got a minute to ress from revivify, which is longer than the duration of stunning strike. Contigency: Revivify set up appropriately lets you escape the stun by dying and coming back to life.

mistajames

2021-02-02, 05:39 PM

- Appendix on conditions

You've got a minute to ress from revivify, which is longer than the duration of stunning strike. Contigency: Revivify set up appropriately lets you escape the stun by dying and coming back to life.

The issue is knowing in advance how long the contingency should be set for. I just went with what was easiest and less metagam-ey. If you set things up to screw the monk specifically, ofc the caster will win.

Scarytincan

2021-02-02, 05:41 PM

- Appendix on conditions

You've got a minute to ress from revivify, which is longer than the duration of stunning strike. Contigency: Revivify set up appropriately lets you escape the stun by dying and coming back to life.

OK so are you revivifying immediately (still stunned) or after the monk has stripped you of your casting components, put on manacles and hooded/gagged you and readied an attack? Battle of the metagaming commence! :p

MaxWilson

2021-02-02, 05:43 PM

You return to life the moment the Monk's turn ends. You get a turn, and you are not stunned. You use Divine Intervention.

And that's only if the Monk actually manages to permastun you.

What are you setting the circumstances to to avoid the Monk having an opportunity to react?

Remember time is nebulous in combat, specifying it in seconds could mean that you revive during the Monk's turn, a death sentence if they have any remaining attacks or after your own turn.

To be completely honest, I don't see how your Cleric could set a circumstance they have any comprehension of that guarantees this timing works, your Cleric can't set their contingent circumstance as "when the Monk kills me and ends his turn" because those are completely meta concepts.

There's also nothing stopping the monk from e.g. cutting out your tongue as one of his remaining attacks on his turn after he drops you 0 HP. E.g.

Monk: drop cleric to 0 HP (cleric drops whatever he's holding), kick away holy symbol with object interaction, cut out the cleric's tongue with Extra Attack or bonus action attack just in case cleric is faking death.
Cleric: <roll death save>
Monk: hit cleric a few more times to kill him (or not--could just take him captive now and sell him into slavery, or whatever it was that made you want to fight him in the first place).
Cleric: <Revives, is alive again!> Asks Divine Intervention to get him out of there. Gets hit with Etherealness effect.
Monk: <briefly nonplussed>
Cleric: <stuck on Ethereal plane unable to cast spells>
Monk: <either lets cleric run away or eventually pursues through the Astral Plane and into the Ethereal Plane, but since cleric can't cast spells any more we know how that pursuit will end>.

My point here: Revivify after you die seems like a poor choice for a 1v1 duel, because the enemy can do all sorts of things to you before he kills you.

I guess it's a little bit better though if the cleric happens to have the Tasha's feat for Subtle Metamagic. At least then you could spend three minutes casting Subtle Regenerate and regrowing your tongue.