"Realistic" Epic Organizations?

[Destro2119]

So I have recently been reading up on the Epic Level Handbook's epic organizations. And I must admit, most of them feel... kind of underwhelming. Like they took normal organizations and stuck an extra 10-15 levels on everyone.

Specifically, and this ties a little into my last post on "Is the Multiverse Medieval?", but it always felt weird that Union's guards are just crossbow wielding soldiers. Like, they have super-spellcasters they can contact, and their best weapons are crossbows and not some sort of degenerator pistol or rifle? Or how the Gleaners collection only includes like magical swords and bows, and not some sort of magitech super-starship-- what if their target flees to the Star Wars universe?

How would you realistically develop an Epic organization? What sort of equipment would they have? What would their average squad look like? I await your responses.

[King of Nowhere]

that depends a lot on the amount of cheese available to your universe
it also depends on how structured is society as a whole: is the world a wilderness with scattered city states that could easily be conquered by anyone above level 10 who ever bothered, or are there massive empires capable of mobilizing lots of high level military power and trounce even epic parties?

however, those questions also influence a lot on how you deal with a single adventuring party, so i'd treat an epic organization just like that, a bunch of high level adventuring parties working together. Instead of having a 15th level fighter stuck on guard duty (which is frankly ridiculous; my main dislike for epic is that it's basically the same as ever, but with higher numbers), just divide the manpower into 4-6 members adventuring parties and give each one a mission that's part of the whole scheme

[Maat Mons]

Depending on the level of the setting as a whole, a single epic character could reshape society. So if you've established that the world the PCs come from is filled with low-level mundane people, has a medieval standard of living, and is plagued by low-CR problems, the only conclusion is that epic-level organizations either don't care about any of that, or actively work to keep things that way. So if you started a game at 1st level, and now you've gotten up to epic and introduced some epic NPCs, when the players ask "What have these guys been doing all this time while we were saving the world from things that they could have Thanos-snapped away?" the only realistic answer is "They haven't been doing much of anything. That's why this is the first you've heard of them." This, in a nutshell, is why all epic organizations have to be uninteresting. Because if they ever did anything remotely interesting, with all the power available at epic, they'd be major world-shaping forces that even 1st-level characters couldn't help but be keenly aware of.

Honestly, I think the most interesting epic organization would be one that keeps destroying civilizations that get too advanced. Once things stop looking medieval, and start looking like modern society with magic instead of technology, out come the mysterious apocalypses. Then the survivors rebuild a much less advanced nation on the ruins of the old one. And when they recover a little too much and start straying from the classic fantasy tropes again, the cycle repeats. Long-lasting civilizations have caught on, and deliberately eschew anything that could be construed as modern. Every time a gnome invents firearms, he and all his work get disappeared by the government, lest they draw the ire of this clandestine, powerful organization.

[AvatarVecna]

So I have recently been reading up on the Epic Level Handbook's epic [thing]. And I must admit, most of them feel... kind of underwhelming. Like they took normal [things] and stuck an extra 10-15 levels on everyone.

You've just described all the content and the designer intent of the Epic Level Handbook. Magic items don't do cooler stuff, they just do nonepic stuff but even bigger numbers. Enemies you fight don't have more interesting tactics or more interesting abilities, it's just things you seen previously but bigger numbers. Epic organization? Regular organization, but with bigger numbers? Epic city? Regular city, but bigger numbers. The entire aim is for you to be able to play the WotC-assumed "fighter cleric rogue wizard" dungeon-delving set-up no matter how high level you get, even when realistically the powers available and the scale games should be taking place on would otherwise invalidate such an approach to epic adventuring.

[Maat Mons]

To be fair, there's no way to have uncapped progression that doesn't eventually just become numbers growing bigger according to a pattern. That's why most editions have a maximum level, and why the Epic Level Handbook was a terrible idea that we should all pretend never happened.

[Bugbear]

How would you realistically develop an Epic organization? What sort of equipment would they have? What would their average squad look like? I await your responses.

The problem here is any "real" Epic organization would alter the multiverse....and no writer, rpg company or the owners want that...so we will never see it.

Lets see you'd have:

*The All Sages: Using EPIC divination they know everything about everything. They control everything they want to.

*The Obliterators : Using Epic magic they obliterate anything they feel like. They use obliterate crystal sphere/ solar system. Or even just Orbs of World Rending.

*The Time Lords: Using Epic Time Travel....they not only control whatever they want...plus they alter time.

[Gusmo]

This is how I see epic organizations: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617444-A-data-security-anti-divination-thought-experiment-ft-a-button

In other words, they're operating mostly or entirely out of sight, fighting battles that are essentially incomprehensible to the public at large. While the button example may seem silly, it's not far off from most fantasy plot device doomsday stuff.

[rel]

Alternate idea; There are no epic or even high level organisations.
D&D being what it is, at low levels, having even lower level minions is helpful. They can bolster your ability in combat, provide you with meaningful resources, hold land for you, all the normal stuff.

At higher levels this stops being true. Mook armies cease to be relevant to anything you actually want to fight, land is increasingly irrelevant, and if absolutely required, better defended and managed without a picturesque population of dirty peasants in attendance.

So, you don't have high level / epic organisations, you have high level / epic INDIVIDUALS (or occasionally small groups, composed entirely of unique named characters).
Let me give you some examples:

The Five
A party of retired epic level adventurers each of whom lives in and basically owns a different city. The cities are scattered haphazardly across the world since each retiree just picked a place they liked and moved in.
They don't officially rule their cities nor do they do any work running things but everyone knows who's in charge and it shows.
The cities are always completely independent don't possess armies and are generally quiet and aesthetically pleasing.
Not safe mind you, nor free of crime or problems just quiet on the surface. No one wants to make trouble for The Boss.
And every now and then as you travel through the city, you see some evidence of the owners influence:
An old man who as a child, the boss killed on accident. Good luck too, he was instantly resurrected and since that day has lived two centuries and never been sick.
A fountain of such impossible beauty that people can become enchanted by it and stand for hours just staring. Locals know to avert their eyes as they go past and pickpockets are always eager to take advantage of a dazed tourist.
A long line of houses and buildings, crossing streets and districts, most newer than those around them and all made in the same style. As though they were built all at once. Apparently the boss punched something a while back. It was one hell of a punch.

Terraxion
A turtle like monster so big a small forest has grown on its back. Recently, some enterprising individuals even built a town in the trees.
The inhabitants are badass and more than a little crazy but they are friendly enough. The forest is dangerous but danger is relative, to the players and to a lesser extent, the townfolk it is little more than a nuisance.
Terraxion doesn't seem to care about the hitchhikers, it wanders around and politely avoids trampling anything important as it always has.
It is generally believed that the kaiju is a lot smarter than it appears.

[Saintheart]

*The Time Lords: Using Epic Time Travel....they not only control whatever they want...plus they alter time.

There's always one player who wants make his stronghold a small blue box that's bigger on the inside.

[icefractal]

So when the topic of highly powerful organizations (Epic or not) comes up, a big question to ask is - "Some of these groups want to rule or substantially change the world. Why haven't they?" And there's a number of answers:

1) They have. Maybe there's a big empire in the setting, and the God Emperor really is close to a god, being Epic level and maybe even possessing divine rank. Or maybe the emperor is a figurehead, but there is a secret cabal who's been running the empire for centuries and is Epic level. In this case the Epic organizations are ... the most powerful of the existing organizations you already knew about.

2) They're locked in power struggles that leave their activities mostly concealed. A few months ago, you heard that an abandoned fortress had collapsed into a sudden sinkhole. What you didn't hear was that the fortress was annihilated from existence during a fight between two godlike factions, because that location is secretly a powerful leyline nexus. I find like unless most of these factions actively want to keep things secret, this stretches plausibility, but it's an option.

3) The entire world you've been playing in is a "small pond", and the really big fish are outside it. Maybe the Prime Material is a nature reserve / neutral meeting ground and the real battles between Epic forces are happening on the Astral Plane.

And there's more than this, but it's getting late here. To be continued at some point.

[Destro2119]

Honestly, I think the most interesting epic organization would be one that keeps destroying civilizations that get too advanced. Once things stop looking medieval, and start looking like modern society with magic instead of technology, out come the mysterious apocalypses. Then the survivors rebuild a much less advanced nation on the ruins of the old one. And when they recover a little too much and start straying from the classic fantasy tropes again, the cycle repeats. Long-lasting civilizations have caught on, and deliberately eschew anything that could be construed as modern. Every time a gnome invents firearms, he and all his work get disappeared by the government, lest they draw the ire of this clandestine, powerful organization.

TBH, this is not only the last thing I would do, it is not something I would even consider.

The trope of perpetual medieval stasis is already ridiculous, but I literally can't conceive of how this interpretation would be a good idea, both in universe or out of it. Out of verse, it's a big middle finger to the players. In verse, it's just confusing and weird.

[Destro2119]

Alternate idea; There are no epic or even high level organisations.
D&D being what it is, at low levels, having even lower level minions is helpful. They can bolster your ability in combat, provide you with meaningful resources, hold land for you, all the normal stuff.

At higher levels this stops being true. Mook armies cease to be relevant to anything you actually want to fight, land is increasingly irrelevant, and if absolutely required, better defended and managed without a picturesque population of dirty peasants in attendance.

So, you don't have high level / epic organisations, you have high level / epic INDIVIDUALS (or occasionally small groups, composed entirely of unique named characters).
Let me give you some examples:

The Five
A party of retired epic level adventurers each of whom lives in and basically owns a different city. The cities are scattered haphazardly across the world since each retiree just picked a place they liked and moved in.
They don't officially rule their cities nor do they do any work running things but everyone knows who's in charge and it shows.
The cities are always completely independent don't possess armies and are generally quiet and aesthetically pleasing.
Not safe mind you, nor free of crime or problems just quiet on the surface. No one wants to make trouble for The Boss.
And every now and then as you travel through the city, you see some evidence of the owners influence:
An old man who as a child, the boss killed on accident. Good luck too, he was instantly resurrected and since that day has lived two centuries and never been sick.
A fountain of such impossible beauty that people can become enchanted by it and stand for hours just staring. Locals know to avert their eyes as they go past and pickpockets are always eager to take advantage of a dazed tourist.
A long line of houses and buildings, crossing streets and districts, most newer than those around them and all made in the same style. As though they were built all at once. Apparently the boss punched something a while back. It was one hell of a punch.

Terraxion
A turtle like monster so big a small forest has grown on its back. Recently, some enterprising individuals even built a town in the trees.
The inhabitants are badass and more than a little crazy but they are friendly enough. The forest is dangerous but danger is relative, to the players and to a lesser extent, the townfolk it is little more than a nuisance.
Terraxion doesn't seem to care about the hitchhikers, it wanders around and politely avoids trampling anything important as it always has.
It is generally believed that the kaiju is a lot smarter than it appears.

I like the ideas behind this. However, I usually go for a (lot) more higher reaching interpretation.

[Destro2119]

So when the topic of highly powerful organizations (Epic or not) comes up, a big question to ask is - "Some of these groups want to rule or substantially change the world. Why haven't they?" And there's a number of answers:

1) They have. Maybe there's a big empire in the setting, and the God Emperor really is close to a god, being Epic level and maybe even possessing divine rank. Or maybe the emperor is a figurehead, but there is a secret cabal who's been running the empire for centuries and is Epic level. In this case the Epic organizations are ... the most powerful of the existing organizations you already knew about.

2) They're locked in power struggles that leave their activities mostly concealed. A few months ago, you heard that an abandoned fortress had collapsed into a sudden sinkhole. What you didn't hear was that the fortress was annihilated from existence during a fight between two godlike factions, because that location is secretly a powerful leyline nexus. I find like unless most of these factions actively want to keep things secret, this stretches plausibility, but it's an option.

3) The entire world you've been playing in is a "small pond", and the really big fish are outside it. Maybe the Prime Material is a nature reserve / neutral meeting ground and the real battles between Epic forces are happening on the Astral Plane.

And there's more than this, but it's getting late here. To be continued at some point.

I want to present my own concepts for this topic, taking inspiration from the great responses I have received.

So essentially, epic beings work on a multiversal level, operating in both the greater multiverse and on a extremely high level in the "base" universe. So essentially you have these guys attending multiversal meetings in the Dimension-City of Union and also being the heads of state of their multigalactic empires. And they may very easily be able to be in multiple places at once, to name but one of their limitless capabilities.

I am developing my own custom system based on Pathfinder/Corefinder for use for a setting for this. The setting will be high science fantasy essentially.