Challenging a forum assumption

[Roninblack]

I see an assumption pretty regularly that says,
"The pre-statted enemies assume that the party has access to certain effects at certain levels and baseline stats that are nearly impossible to meet without access to abundant magic and magic items"
I have also heard the claim that the developers assumed all random loot and the "necessities" actually weren't balanced for. Instead making balance harder.

Does anyone have proof to support a claim one way or another?

[Zanos]

Sure. Take a look in the DMG at the wealth by level information:

The baseline campaign for the D&D game uses this “wealth by level” guideline as a basis for balance in adventures. No adventure meant for 7th-level characters, for example, will require or assume that the party possesses a magic item that costs 20,000 gp.

[icefractal]

Also just compare the enemy stats to PC stats without items, and consider that CR = APL is supposed to be a "normal" fight that expends roughly 20% of resources.

Now yes, it's possible to win without gear if you stick to mostly casters and optimize. Or as a non-caster if you optimize a lot. But given what WotC's NPCs and example characters look like, they're definitely not expecting that level of optimization, and may not even realize that it's possible.

Regarding random loot - if you compare the WBL to the average value of items you receive from loot rolls, the latter is noticeably higher. So WBL already accounts for getting unsuitable stuff and trading/selling it for the gear you want. Meaning that if you always give custom-tailored gear you can give less, and if buying/trading is unavailable you should give substantially more.

Tangential but related, if you want players to keep the stuff they find rather than selling it, tweak the loot tables not to give some many damn potions and +1 weapons! More than once a group I've been in has started out really wanting to make the most use out of everything we find, but by the tenth batch of redundant weapons and potions we'll probably never use, just started chucking it all into a fungible loot pile for future sale.

[Biggus]

Certain monster abilities become very problematic without appropriate magic. For example, many devils have regeneration which can only be overcome with good-aligned weapons; without such a weapon, or an attack form that doesn't deal hit point damage (ie, a magical one) you can't permanently kill them, they'll just keep regenerating forever until they kill you. Flight, invisibility, sky-high grapple checks etc are very hard to counter without magic; death effects, ability drain, energy drain are very deadly without magical protection.

[Roninblack]

Sure. Take a look in the DMG at the wealth by level information:

That's helpful but not firm, because that chart was made based on random encounters giving out random treasure not the treasure given out by encounters roughly follows the chart. This becomes an issue when using MIC's treasure generation but that's a totally different thread.

And biggus I acknowledge that without magic certain abilities are harder to challenge, or rather with enough magic nothing is a challenge;
But that doesn't tell me that for example a CR 15 assumes people have cloaks of resistance +5, +7 weaponry, and have maxed out their stats with headband +6 and +5 inherent from wish.

My question is whether it's provable that it is or isn't balanced with that in mind.

[Zanos]

MIC 231 goes into a bit more detail:

A player points to an item published in this book or the Dungeon Master’s Guide and asks, “Can I buy this?” The answer should usually be, “Yes.”
Magic items are an important part of every character’s arsenal of abilities. Most monsters and encounters assume that characters have a certain amount of gear to make the challenge appropriate.
...
In general, though, you should allow characters with sufficient funds to equip themselves as they desire. Even the most thoughtfully constructed series of treasure hoards almost certainly fails to provide all your players the items they want to maximize their enjoyment as they advance in level.
There are a few minor caveats in that section about the exact where and how of buying items. But the general sentiment is that the game is balanced for a party that purchased or acquired the items they desire within the constraints of the character wealth table. I believe the DMG also goes into detail about adjusting treasure up/down if the random tables create major discrepancies.


Certain monster abilities become very problematic without appropriate magic. For example, many devils have regeneration which can only be overcome with good-aligned weapons; without such a weapon, or an attack form that doesn't deal hit point damage (ie, a magical one) you can't permanently kill them, they'll just keep regenerating forever until they kill you. Flight, invisibility, sky-high grapple checks etc are very hard to counter without magic; death effects, ability drain, energy drain are very deadly without magical protection.
There are alternate solutions with mundane equipment to a lot of these problems. You can coup de grace an unconscious troll with a torch, for example. That said the CR of monsters with special abilities that are best overcome with access to magical effects is certainly not as printed if you deny the party access to those effects.

[Blue Jay]

If you take the designers at their word, then yes, the challenge ratings were assigned based on some formulations that included WBL, specific resource-use rates, encounter rates, etc.

I agree with Roninblack that the forum has taken that claim a bit too seriously, but I don't think I'd go as far in challenging it as he has.

Certainly, there was some real logic to the CR formula, and most monsters are assigned appropriate CRs. But, the idea that the formula was so fine-tuned that the game falls apart when you don't follow it... in my personal experience, I don't feel like that idea has held up. There's just so much variance in the baseline capabilities of a party, so much variance in the strengths and weaknesses of monsters with the same CR, and so much variance in the cost-effectiveness of magic items, especially at mid to high levels... I just don't have a lot of confidence that a formula based on those variables is going to be very consistently meaningful.

There are a lot of uncertainties in things like this, so people really shouldn't get hung up on it.

[Crichton]

Regarding random loot - if you compare the WBL to the average value of items you receive from loot rolls, the latter is noticeably higher.



I'm fairly sure that's not the case. DMG pg 51 is pretty clear that the treasure value per encounter table is designed to align with the players' WBL table, so that 13 to 14 encounters (the amount required to level up) with average loot rolls on the table, will provide pretty much the exact WBL for a party of 4 at that level, plus a bit of extra to account for when the 'PCs expend some resources such as potions and scrolls during those encounters'


A quick test using the d20srd's treasure generator bears that out. I generated 8 treasure hoards of 14 encounters each, at level 1, then summed them all and averaged them, and it averaged out to just shy of 4000gp on average, which is 400gp higher than a party of four level 1 characters should get for WBL, and exactly what the table on pg 51 of the DMG describes for 14 level 1 treasures per encounter.


They really did design the math of treasure per encounter, WBL, and experience gain per encounter to all be in lockstep with one another. 13.33 encounters per level, and 13.33 level-appropriate treasures matches with WBL (with a buffer for potions, scrolls, and other expendables, as they stated).

[gijoemike]

I think I can prove it by coming from the other direction. My shame is that when I was still learning to GM I would fail to give out enough treasure. I was no where near the WBL tables suggestion. I mean I was more than 10k off in the mid level range.

This made every encounter. I mean every single equal CR appropriate encounter a knock down drag out fight. These fights were not supposed to take all the resources of the party to get through. These were not CR + 3 fights. My party had 0 hope of wining a CR +2 fight. Yet these were veteran players who had taught me how to play. What was going on?


So we did a breakdown of + hit and damage. The party should have had some access to +2 weapons and armor by this point. But As I stated. I was a failure. They knew I was a brand new GM so they cut me a mile of slack.

Our fighter didn't have a magic weapon at that point. Only +1 armor. So +2 hit and damage was right out.
The ranger had single +1 magic weapon but no magic armor. His off hand attacks were missing.
The DCs of the cleric and wizard were 2 points lower. That is 10% higher chance of the enemies making a save.
The wizard only had 2 spells per level no extra. So, he couldn't use slots for utility. He only had best offensive and defensive spells
The cleric had to use more spells than normal because there wasn't a wand of healing. Also limited the few buffs.
Only the ranger could hurt a DR/magic enemy with weapon damage.
All casters were missing several spell slots due to the permanent stat boost item


So we had a magic mart game session where everyone was able to shop. The fighter bought a belt of strength and a +1 weapon. The ranger got a +2 weapon for his off hand, the casters got a +4 and +2 stat item. The wizard bought a few utility spells to research and copy to his spell book.

I then ran them through 2 more similar level appropriate encounters. The wizard used a buff spell on the ranger, the cleric through some offensive spells ( being able to heal after the fight with a wand instead), the ranger hit with his off hand ( twice ) and really upped the damage per round, the fighter was able to hurt a DR/Magic enemy. The monsters failed a save that without that stat boost item they would have made. The cleric tapped the fighter and ranger a few times with that wand and the party moved on. They almost always had to retreat after a fight like that before.

To make a point they bought items that still put them just under correct WBL. Just a bit of treasure makes it possible to play the game with the CR and encounter levels as it was designed. Now my example and my shame was going from almost nothing to geared. This was was different than going from a +2 stat item to a +4 or a +1 weapon to a +2. The difference between a +4 cloak of resistance and a +5 is very negligible.

[Jay R]

My job as a DM is to provide challenging encounters for the actual party at my table, not for some theoretical party.

If the party is low on magic items, I need to provide encounters that are challenging and reasonable for a party with a low level of magic items. If the party is exceedingly rich in magic items, then I need to provide encounters that they can't just walk through, but are serious and challenging for them with the magic they have.

The pre-statted enemies don't have to assume that the party has access to certain abilities. The might be animals, or even mindless ooze, that don't make assumptions at all. But I as a DM need to make sure that when they appear, they are ready to face the actual party they will face.

[ezekielraiden]

If you want a literal "you MUST have +N weapons by level Q" type statement, you're going to be disappointed. Pretty sure the books never say that. However, in the aggregate, the books and online content definitely give enough hints and partial statements that we can tell this situation was intended. Moreover, we know that 4e did not invent the idea of mathematical scaling; it's been present forever, and 3e was the edition to make it a smooth and uniform progression.

Without magic armor and resistance bonuses, the PCs' defenses will fall behind by very roughly 1-2 every 5 levels. This doesn't sound horrible, but it means that if the expected scaling gives players a 65% chance of avoiding enemy attacks, by level 10 you have a good chance of the party actually having 50/50 chances, or worse if they're lightly armored or have a weak save. Suddenly the low-Dex Fighter is at risk of failing 60% or more on Reflex saves.

Without magic weapons and DC boosters, the party's own resources are also more likely to fail. Again, it may not seem like much, but going from 65% chance to hit to only 50% makes a WORLD of difference psychologically.

Further, lacking stat bonuses and magical healing resources, the party will take longer to achieve victory, burn through their spell durations sooner, regain less HP, *start* with less HP, and generally just be quicker to fall and slower to rise.

It's somehow both a "death by a thousand cuts" AND an actual "here's the fatal wound" thing mixed together.

I'd have to do some tedious Google searching, but I know for a fact that some of the designers have gone on record that a suit of magic armor, a magic weapon, and a saving throw booster are the three central, "everyone is supposed to have these" items. The game's math depends on people having them, or getting an alternative from somewhere else, and you'll start seeing problems and vague feelings of "things not going well". If they're absent.

[Roninblack]

Ezekiel: that tedious Google search was exactly what I was hoping for tbh

I agree with what Jay is saying for sure

And zanos thanks for that section of the MIC, you're 100% right that it said players are expected to have certain equipment as they level.

Appreciate it folks

[ezekielraiden]

Ezekiel: that tedious Google search was exactly what I was hoping for tbh

I agree with what Jay is saying for sure

And zanos thanks for that section of the MIC, you're 100% right that it said players are expected to have certain equipment as they level.

Appreciate it folks

If you'd like a separate source that more or less does as I said (hints, implications, and indirect statements), check out this page. It has a bunch of links to old archived posts from Skip Williams about making and playing the various classes well. Overall, they're actually halfway-decent for advice (I actually quite like the Paladins with Class article), though not totally flawless. The Fighters with Class article, for example, calls out getting many different "stacking" items, rather than one big item, because that gets you more benefit for less cost--a pretty clear nod to charop ideas, even if it isn't explicitly saying you must have X, Y, Z items by level Q.

[Biggus]

And biggus I acknowledge that without magic certain abilities are harder to challenge, or rather with enough magic nothing is a challenge;
But that doesn't tell me that for example a CR 15 assumes people have cloaks of resistance +5, +7 weaponry, and have maxed out their stats with headband +6 and +5 inherent from wish.

My question is whether it's provable that it is or isn't balanced with that in mind.

I was answering the "access to certain effects at certain levels" part of your question, as that's much more definite; the "and baseline stats" part is much less so, it basically comes down to luck. You can optimize past certain parts but not others, for example a warrior can get their damage very high without magic, but they'll find it more difficult with saves and AC.



There are alternate solutions with mundane equipment to a lot of these problems. You can coup de grace an unconscious troll with a torch, for example. That said the CR of monsters with special abilities that are best overcome with access to magical effects is certainly not as printed if you deny the party access to those effects.

Agreed, I chose devils' regeneration as an example because it's one of the relatively few which there isn't a way round without magic. But there are lots of things which stack the odds heavily against the party if they don't have appropriate magic, and while some of them you can get round with mundane solutions or playing intelligently, sooner or later they're going to be unlucky and then you're looking at a likely TPK.

[ciopo]

BAB vs AC would kind of make this self evident, if only AC wasn't a joke.
A cr1 has ~3 to hit bonus, a cr 4 has a ~11 to hit bonus and likely can full attack with something. Their AC hasn't balooned up as much comparatively, but you sure as hell want to hit more often and harder. That +1 weapon at level 4 is significant. Multiplied for 4 character it's the difference between killing a cr4 creature in 2-3 rounds instead of 3-4 rounds, and that's "just about" enough to prevent that one extra full attack from a brown bear or whatever that would have sent a frontliner in the negatives.
It gets even more ridiculous at higher levels, where unless you're mowing down lower cr creatures, you get hit 95% of the time

[Fizban]

BAB vs AC would kind of make this self evident, if only AC wasn't a joke.
A cr1 has ~3 to hit bonus, a cr 4 has a ~11 to hit bonus and likely can full attack with something. Their AC hasn't balooned up as much comparatively, but you sure as hell want to hit more often and harder. That +1 weapon at level 4 is significant. Multiplied for 4 character it's the difference between killing a cr4 creature in 2-3 rounds instead of 3-4 rounds, and that's "just about" enough to prevent that one extra full attack from a brown bear or whatever that would have sent a frontliner in the negatives.
It gets even more ridiculous at higher levels, where unless you're mowing down lower cr creatures, you get hit 95% of the time
Ignore low CR creatures, which have inflated AC and hit bonuses because the system start at +0 and small things also get bonuses. Then assume full plate and heavy shield, and some actual investment, and ignore obvious outliers like dragons and basically all of MM3. AC is only a joke because people make it a joke by ignoring it. No one expects basic attacks with no feats or class features or items to work, why would your AC?