Group of Level 20ish Wizards (Capstone)

[dmhelp]

So if you had a party of essentially level 20 Wizards consisting of:

Wizard 20
Bladesinger 18/Paladin 2
Wizard 18/Fighter 2

Is there any way to balance/improve the Wizard capstone up to the level of the other two characters?

Maybe:
At level 20 Arcane Recovery may be done on every short rest.
Or:
Signature Spell - select two spells of up to 5th level (instead of being limited to 3rd level spells).

What about for a Sorcerer party:
Sorcerer 20
Sorcerer 18/Paladin 2
Sorcerer 18/Fighter 2
Sorcerer 18/Warlock 2

Maybe something like:
Automatic Metamagic - choose one of your Metmagics that costs at most 2 sorcery points. That Metmagic now costs 0 sorcery points. The Metamagic that receives this benefit can be switched at the end of a long rest.

[J-H]

Don't under-rate "2 3rd level spells per day, once per day, without preparing them or expending a spell slot."

Free Haste, or Fly, or Fireball, Dispel, Counterspell, or Blink, or whatever. You now have two more spell options available to cast than any other class in the entire game. You cap out at 27 spells instead of 25.

It makes "I cast Nondetection 3 times a day and nobody can ever find me" easier to do, too.

[Bobthewizard]

The straight wizard/sorcerer gets an extra 7th level spell slot over the multi-class options and an extra 6th level slot over the fighter and warlock. They also get an extra feat and are less MAD, so likely have more HP due to a higher CON score.

[stoutstien]

The easiest fix is probably have more encounters per day and more encounters between each short rest. The only way I can see those two multi-class options even coming close to matching the potential of a straight level 20 wizard is due to a 5 minute adventuring day.

The sorcerer capstone is pretty meh. It still has better spell progression than any multi-class.

[LudicSavant]

So if you had a party of essentially level 20 Wizards consisting of:

Wizard 20
Bladesinger 18/Paladin 2
Wizard 18/Fighter 2

Is there any way to balance/improve the Wizard capstone up to the level of the other two characters?

Maybe:
At level 20 Arcane Recovery may be done on every short rest.
Or:
Signature Spell - select two spells of up to 5th level (instead of being limited to 3rd level spells).

Don't underestimate those last two Wizard levels. They get you a level 6 and 7 slot, an entire ASI, 6x L3 slots in a "standard adventuring day," 4 extra spells prepared from the best list in the game, and the powerful possibility of "1 hour rituals" (like what happens when a Warlock gets Animate Dead).

Contrast what your Bladesinger is getting from Paladin: Medium armor + shield proficiency (doesn't matter to Bladesinger), 10 points of lay on hands + 4 extra hp (from hit die size), a Fighting Style, some level 1 spells prepared, and smiting (an alternate use for spell slots you already have good uses for). And you get a level 6 slot, but not a level 7 one.

Oh, and you have to spend your entire progression with 13+ Str and Cha.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

1. choose 1 spell of 1st through x level, that spell is now a bonus action to cast for you.
2. A second 8th level spell slot
3. All spells of 1st level are cast as if at second level (or higher.)

I agree however that it doesn't need a buff.

[LudicSavant]

We had a thread a while back with folks ranking the various capstones (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616942-Rank-the-level-20-feats), which you may or may not find useful.

[dmhelp]

I guess, compared to most people, I over value an action surge every short rest or the option to mix divine smite into things when you would like to deal damage?

And I’m under valuing level 3 slots (I was thinking magic items blur minor differences in low level slots).

[LudicSavant]

And I’m under valuing level 3 slots (I was thinking magic items blur minor differences in low level slots).

It's not just level 3 slots (and the number of them that you get -- it's tripling your L3 slots in a standard adventuring day before you even count the '1 hour ritual' tactics it enables). It's level 6 and 7 slots. And feats. And preparation slots. And attribute scores (since Paladin needs 13 Str/13 Cha).

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

It's not just level 3 slots (and the number of them that you get -- it's tripling your L3 slots in a standard adventuring day before you even count the '1 hour ritual' tactics it enables). It's level 6 and 7 slots. And feats. And preparation slots. And attribute scores (since Paladin needs 13 Str/13 Cha).

Huh, I actually didn't know that signature spells came back on a short rest. Thank you.

[J.C.]

Oh, and you have to spend your entire progression with 13+ Str and Cha.

Experienced Wizard players can meet this challenge. And the reward they get in the long run is a much stronger build. Paladin or Fighter shore up the Wizard's weaknesses very nicely.

[JNAProductions]

Experienced Wizard players can meet this challenge. And the reward they get in the long run is a much stronger build. Paladin or Fighter shore up the Wizard's weaknesses very nicely.

Prove it, then.

[J.C.]

Prove it, then.

Ok. First we need to agree about what are the weaknesses of being a Wizard. Your thoughts?

[JNAProductions]

Ok. First we need to agree about what are the weaknesses of being a Wizard. Your thoughts?

Nah. Just post a build that shores up what you perceive the weaknesses to be. Or is just better than a straight Wizard 20.

[J.C.]

Nah. Just post a build that shores up what you perceive the weaknesses to be. Or is just better than a straight Wizard 20.

Sure.

Paladin 2/ Wizard 18
Fighter2/ Wizard 18

[LudicSavant]

Experienced Wizard players can meet this challenge.

This doesn't even make sense. It's not a "challenge," it's a cost. You don't need "experience" to invest 13 Str and Cha. You just can, at the cost of other features.

[Ortho]

Sure.

Paladin 2/ Wizard 18
Fighter2/ Wizard 18

I can see why these would be preferable to 20 levels of wizard, but I'm a bit confused as to exactly what weaknesses these patch.

Both dips give you heavy armor and some emergency healing, which the wizard lacks. But if that's what you're after, I am left wondering as to why you'd prefer those over a single level of Life Cleric, which would give you both of the above and has the added benefit of not slowing down your spell slot progression.

[J.C.]

I can see why these would be preferable to 20 levels of wizard, but I'm a bit confused as to exactly what weaknesses these patch.

Both dips give you heavy armor and some emergency healing, which the wizard lacks. But if that's what you're after, I am left wondering as to why you'd prefer those over a single level of Life Cleric, which would give you both of the above and has the added benefit of not slowing down your spell slot progression.

Let's start with Fighter and consider an 18th level Wizard.

How much do you value Action Surge? This is the rarest ability in all of 5e.

How much do you value 10 feet of Blindsight? Lots of your spells depend on vision.

How effective is a Wizard 20 versus a Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 in an Anti Magic Field? To survive in Tier 4 you need to shore up your biggest weaknesses and Anti Magic Field sure does fit the bill as your biggest weakness.


This doesn't even make sense. It's not a "challenge," it's a cost. You don't need "experience" to invest 13 Str and Cha. You just can, at the cost of other features.

I am not a big fan of dumping stats. Dumping stats opens up weaknesses.

[stoutstien]

Let's start with Fighter and consider an 18th level Wizard.

How much do you value Action Surge? This is the rarest ability in all of 5e.

How much do you value 10 feet of Blindsight? Lots of your spells depend on vision.

How effective is a Wizard 20 versus a Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 in an Anti Magic Field? To survive in Tier 4 you need to shore up your biggest weaknesses and Anti Magic Field sure does fit the bill as your biggest weakness.



I am not a big fan of dumping stats. Dumping stats opens up weaknesses.

Blindsight doesn't enable the caster to cast spells that rely on seeing the target.

With 13 Cha and Str something has to be lower regardless of you want to dump a stat or not. If anything it costs roughly 30% more to sure up stats with a paladin multiclass and it has delayed ASI progress and less total ASIs to work with.

[Mastikator]

Blindsight doesn't enable the caster to cast spells that rely on seeing the target.

With 13 Cha and Str something has to be lower regardless of you want to dump a stat or not. If anything it costs roughly 30% more to sure up stats with a paladin multiclass and it has delayed ASI progress and less total ASIs to work with.

Do you need 13 STR if your first level is fighter? Come to think of it you'd also have heavy armor proficiency, allowing you to cast spells in full plate armor down the line.

[stoutstien]

Do you need 13 STR if your first level is fighter? Come to think of it you'd also have heavy armor proficiency, allowing you to cast spells in full plate armor down the line.

you must meet the stat requirements for multi-classing into or out of the class. H armor is mostly a lateral move rather than an upgrade.

[J.C.]

you must meet the stat requirements for multi-classing into or out of the class. H armor is mostly a lateral move rather than an upgrade.

A hidden benefit of Heavy Armor proficiency is that you have an answer to the tactic of imprisoning a Wizard in welded Heavy Armor.

[JNAProductions]

A hidden benefit of Heavy Armor proficiency is that you have an answer to the tactic of imprisoning a Wizard in welded Heavy Armor.

If the enemy has enough time to strap you in chainmail, they have enough time to break your fingers and cut out your tongue.

[J.C.]

If the enemy has enough time to strap you in chainmail, they have enough time to break your fingers and cut out your tongue.

Metamagic Adept is handy for that.

[bid]

Metamagic Adept is handy for that.
Considering you have fewer ASI, it's starting to look like a Heisenbuild.

[JNAProductions]

Considering you have fewer ASI, it's starting to look like a Heisenbuild.

J.C. has not, as far as I know, posted so much as a single build on this forum. They've consistently talked a big game, including claiming to be part of a ring of professional 5E PvP gamers, but have provided not one iota of backup for their claims.

So, you know, take their words with a grain of salt.

[J.C.]

Considering you have fewer ASI, it's starting to look like a Heisenbuild.

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 doesn't have fewer ASI than a Wizard 20. All you need is a Dex of 13+ to Multiclass and Dex is important to a Wizard already.


J.C. has not, as far as I know, posted so much as a single build on this forum. They've consistently talked a big game, including claiming to be part of a ring of professional 5E PvP gamers, but have provided not one iota of backup for their claims.

So, you know, take their words with a grain of salt.

Except I just posted an escape to what you assumed was an insecapable trap.

[JNAProductions]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 doesn't have fewer ASI than a Wizard 20. All you need is a Dex of 13+ to Multiclass and Dex is important to a Wizard already.

Except I just posted an escape to what you assumed was an insecapable trap.

No, you lose an ASI at Wizard 19.

And no. I knew full well that Metamagic Adept exists. But that gives you two spells per day (assuming you picked the feat, assuming you picked Subtle Spell, assuming you didn't use any SP earlier that day, and assuming the spell has no material component) and you're still, presumably, trapped by your foes. It might not be 100% crippling, to the point where you can do literally nothing... But it's certainly a pretty strong impediment.

Not to mention, that's not a build. And Wizard 18/Fighter 2 is not a build either-it's a stub.

For instance, a normal Human with starting stats of...

Str 13
Dex 10
Con 8
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 16

Who starts as a Wizard (so has no better than Medium armor proficiency) and takes the following for their 4 ASIs:

Athlete (+1 Dex)
Dual Wielder
Martial Adept
Shield Master

Fits that build. Note that it's also hot garbage.

[J.C.]

No, you lose an ASI at Wizard 19.

And no. I knew full well that Metamagic Adept exists. But that gives you two spells per day (assuming you picked the feat, assuming you picked Subtle Spell, assuming you didn't use any SP earlier that day, and assuming the spell has no material component) and you're still, presumably, trapped by your foes. It might not be 100% crippling, to the point where you can do literally nothing... But it's certainly a pretty strong impediment.


What makes you think a Wizard has no answer to whatever limbs his captors have lobbed off?

[Ortho]

A hidden benefit of Heavy Armor proficiency is that you have an answer to the tactic of imprisoning a Wizard in welded Heavy Armor.

Two problems with this:
One: This is such a ridiculously niche scenario that I sincerely doubt that anyone would dedicate any resources towards thwarting it, and
Two: This is escapable with Misty Step or Dimension Door anyways, since if you wield together all the joints in a suit of armor, it ceases to be a suit of armor and becomes just a prison of steel.

Since we apparently have ten whole minutes to work with here, I'm sincerely baffled as to why the captors wouldn't do something more permanent, like, y'know, just killing the wizard.

[JNAProductions]

What makes you think a Wizard has no answer to whatever limbs his captors have lobbed off?

Give them, then. Enlighten us.

And presumably, mjp, they want the Wizard alive for some reason. Perhaps they have allies who can easily resurrect them, should they die, without needing the body.

[J.C.]

Two problems with this:
One: This is such a ridiculously niche scenario that I sincerely doubt that anyone would dedicate any resources towards thwarting it, and
Two: This is escapable with Misty Step or Dimension Door anyways, since if you wield together all the joints in a suit of armor, it ceases to be a suit of armor and becomes just a prison of steel.

Since we apparently have ten whole minutes to work with here, I'm sincerely baffled as to why the captors wouldn't do something more permanent, like, y'know, just killing the wizard.

Clone aswers that.

[bid]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 doesn't have fewer ASI than a Wizard 20.
Thank you for showing your level of competency.

Now I'm expecting a build as believable as the Sorcerer King.

[J.C.]

Thank you for showing your level of competency.

Now I'm expecting a build as believable as the Sorcerer King.

Well sure you don't get the 19th level feat. But can you point to a Feat that is better than all that Fighter 2 provides? Just Action Surge alone is extraordinarily good for a Wizard.


Give them, then. Enlighten us.

And presumably, mjp, they want the Wizard alive for some reason. Perhaps they have allies who can easily resurrect them, should they die, without needing the body.

Does a spell exist that can restore severed body parts?

Yes. And a Wizard can cast that spell.

[Ortho]

Well sure you don't get the 19th level feat. But can you point to a Feat that is better than all that Fighter 2 provides? Just Action Surge alone is extraordinarily good for a Wizard.

But that's not what you said. You said:
Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 doesn't have fewer ASI than a Wizard 20.which simply isn't true.
Unfortunately, it seems to me as though you're moving the goalposts.





What makes you think a Wizard has no answer to whatever limbs his captors have lobbed off?

I'm going to assume that if you're out of commission for the ten minutes that it would take to shove you in a suit of armor, you can't respond at all. After all, if you could respond, would you be in the armor in the first place?


Does a spell exist that can restore severed body parts?

Regenerate does, but wizards don't get access to that spell. So in this scenario it's a no-go.

[Valmark]

Regenerate does, but wizards don't get access to that spell. So in this scenario it's a no-go.

I mean, in theory they can Wish for it assuming they have a 9th level slot and haven't used it.

[J.C.]

I mean, in theory they can Wish for it assuming they have a 9th level slot and haven't used it.

Good job Valmark. You have solved that riddle.

Clone works here too, btw.



I'm going to assume that if you're out of commission for the ten minutes that it would take to shove you in a suit of armor, you can't respond at all. After all, if you could respond, would you be in the armor in the first place?


In Return of the Jedi, Luke allows himself to be captured to let his captors bring him right to his destination. He knew his captors would completely underestimate his power.

[Valmark]

Good job Valmark. You have solved that riddle.

Clone works here too, btw.

Clone doesn't help if you're alive- unless you mean killing oneself.

And to be honest, given that Regenerate needs time to work that wouldn't work either assuming whoever kidnapped you isn't a complete idiot that leaves a powerful wizard unchecked.

[SharkForce]

In Return of the Jedi, Luke allows himself to be captured to let his captors bring him right to his destination. He knew his captors would completely underestimate his power.

in Return of the Jedi, Luke allowed himself to be captured because he knew that his presence had been detected and he was trying to cover for his friends by making it look like he was the only one there, on a solo mission. the plan was *never* "I'm going to go to Endor and get captured", it was "I'm going to sneak onto the planet with my friends and blow up the shield generator without getting detected".

getting captured is what he did *after* he realized he'd screwed things up royally, gotten detected, and was a risk to the rest of his team.

then he figured his friends would be unexpected and oops, turns out the Emperor knew about that entire plan too, I can't help but suspect that maybe the person who underestimated their enemies might not be who you thought it was.

furthermore, nobody on the other side underestimated his power. the Emperor was frying him to a slow and painful death while Luke could do nothing about it, until Darth Vader decided he didn't like watching his son be slowly murdered by his master while he watched and lobbed the Emperor off a convenient ledge into essentially a bottomless pit full of exploding reactor core.

and you know what? Luke defeating Vader accomplished basically nothing in terms of winning that battle. in what was functionally a miracle the most powerful technological force in the galaxy lost a largely head-on battle against stone age furballs assisted by a handful of commandos with sub-par equipment, the shield was destroyed, the death star core hit, and the death star blew up... *with both of the Sith on it that you're implying Luke had a fight that was in any way meaningful*... and would have done so regardless of Luke's ability to fight Darth Vader (and inability to put up any sort of meaningful resistance to the Emperor's force lightning) or resist turning to the dark side.

Luke's plan to get captured stunk, and he knew it. that's why it was never plan A. it was plan "whoops, let's try and salvage the colossal screwup that happened when LUKE underestimated HIS enemies".

on a more relevant note to the thread, the wizard capstone is largely fine. it isn't the best in the game, it isn't the worst in the game, it's actually quite decent, and there are plenty of uses for short-rest level 3 spells and an extra 2 spells that are always prepared for basically any wizard even at level 20. I would say we should be far more worried about breaking something that is perfectly adequate than we should be about trying to find something that feels more awesome... wizard is already an exceptionally powerful class at high levels, there really isn't a lot more room to give them something that *really* pops.

[J.C.]

on a more relevant note to the thread, the wizard capstone is largely fine. it isn't the best in the game, it isn't the worst in the game, it's actually quite decent, and there are plenty of uses for short-rest level 3 spells and an extra 2 spells that are always prepared for basically any wizard even at level 20. I would say we should be far more worried about breaking something that is perfectly adequate than we should be about trying to find something that feels more awesome... wizard is already an exceptionally powerful class at high levels, there really isn't a lot more room to give them something that *really* pops.

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 outclasses Wizard 20 however.

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 shores up weaknesses and action surge makes more death traps possible that you can pull on BBEGs.

[SharkForce]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 outclasses Wizard 20 however.

Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 shores up weaknesses and action surge makes more death traps possible that you can pull on BBEGs.

eh, not really.

you're either stuck being a fighter 2/wizard X-2 compared to the person who is wizard X, and for most of the game that is a pretty big limitation (you'll be behind in spell levels and wizard class abilities that make you better at doing the wizard's job)... or, you didn't take the fighter dip until level 19, at which point I have to suspect that your weaknesses aren't that bad.

or, to put it another way... yes, you'll be able to, say, cloudkill + forcecage at level 15... but the wizard has had forcecage for 2 levels, and has been able to use a simulacrum for secondary castings.

yes, you'll be able to fireball twice at level 7. but you'll be doing it 2 levels after the single-classed wizard did it, which means you missed out on the levels where fireball is best, and also the wizard can now polymorph an ally into a giant ape while you're still stuck doing your level 5 tricks. yes, you're doing them better than the level 5 wizard could when they were level 5. but who cares. when they were level 5, you were stuck with using shatter or snilloc's snowball swarm while the single-classed wizard had fireball. this trend will continue; at level 7, you'll have polymorph and be able to do something else in the same round once per rest, but the wizard will have wall of force.

they are differently capable, neither is purely superior to the other. both offer advantages and disadvantages. the fighter dip gives some useful armour proficiencies, but if I want to play a wizard, well, the wizard is better at doing the things I actually want my wizard to do.

again, this continues until you finally hit level 20 and the fighter/wizard has caught up. by that point, you've been playing for a very extended period of time, and for the vast majority of that time your fighter dip has put you behind the curve on getting the best spells, and spells are what the wizard is all about. and, quite frankly, you still aren't really superior to the single-classed wizard in every... you're behind an ASI or feat (and yes, that does matter), and you're behind a level 6 and 7 spell slot, which means that the wizard can use an extra 2 force cages (1 from themselves, 1 from their simulacrum) and an extra 2 mass suggestions (1 from themselves, 1 from their simulacrum) per day, just to give one example. they've also learned 4 more spells than you, can have 4 more spells prepared at any given time, and have relatively spammable level 3 spells to burn (counterspell, for example, is still an excellent spell to have at level 20).

so yes, the fighter dip gives you something the wizard doesn't have. but not taking the fighter dip gives the wizard something the fighter dip doesn't offer too. I can't really look at that and say that you are inherently superior at being a spellcaster due to your fighter dip. just different.

and I'm pretty sure that if I took that dip, personally I'd be spending those first 19 levels looking with jealousy at the awesome stuff the pure wizard got. remember the 5th commandment of optimization: "Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice." there are *very* few things you can give to a wizard that are more valuable than casting higher level spells sooner and more frequently.

I don't care if you *do* get your fancy schmancy armour. I get to be a wizard casting sleep while you're derping around as a half-assed fighter with mediocre dexterity for 2 levels. then I get to cast web while you've got sleep (as often as you can cast sleep, come to think of it), except sleep isn't that good any more. then when you get web, I get hypnotic pattern, and so on. you're always a step behind. you can't cast the spells that a pure wizard can, you have fewer resources, and your claim to fame makes you run out of resources even faster.

if I'm *that* desperate for armour and con saves... I'll dip artificer, thanks. I'll still be behind, but I'll be a lot closer.

[diplomancer]

eh, not really.

you're either stuck being a fighter 2/wizard X-2 compared to the person who is wizard X, and for most of the game that is a pretty big limitation (you'll be behind in spell levels and wizard class abilities that make you better at doing the wizard's job)... or, you didn't take the fighter dip until level 19, at which point I have to suspect that your weaknesses aren't that bad.

or, to put it another way... yes, you'll be able to, say, cloudkill + forcecage at level 15... but the wizard has had forcecage for 2 levels, and has been able to use a simulacrum for secondary castings.

yes, you'll be able to fireball twice at level 7. but you'll be doing it 2 levels after the single-classed wizard did it, which means you missed out on the levels where fireball is best, and also the wizard can now polymorph an ally into a giant ape while you're still stuck doing your level 5 tricks. yes, you're doing them better than the level 5 wizard could when they were level 5. but who cares. when they were level 5, you were stuck with using shatter or snilloc's snowball swarm while the single-classed wizard had fireball. this trend will continue; at level 7, you'll have polymorph and be able to do something else in the same round once per rest, but the wizard will have wall of force.

they are differently capable, neither is purely superior to the other. both offer advantages and disadvantages. the fighter dip gives some useful armour proficiencies, but if I want to play a wizard, well, the wizard is better at doing the things I actually want my wizard to do.

again, this continues until you finally hit level 20 and the fighter/wizard has caught up. by that point, you've been playing for a very extended period of time, and for the vast majority of that time your fighter dip has put you behind the curve on getting the best spells, and spells are what the wizard is all about. and, quite frankly, you still aren't really superior to the single-classed wizard in every... you're behind an ASI or feat (and yes, that does matter), and you're behind a level 6 and 7 spell slot, which means that the wizard can use an extra 2 force cages (1 from themselves, 1 from their simulacrum) and an extra 2 mass suggestions (1 from themselves, 1 from their simulacrum) per day, just to give one example. they've also learned 4 more spells than you, can have 4 more spells prepared at any given time, and have relatively spammable level 3 spells to burn (counterspell, for example, is still an excellent spell to have at level 20).

so yes, the fighter dip gives you something the wizard doesn't have. but not taking the fighter dip gives the wizard something the fighter dip doesn't offer too. I can't really look at that and say that you are inherently superior at being a spellcaster due to your fighter dip. just different.

and I'm pretty sure that if I took that dip, personally I'd be spending those first 19 levels looking with jealousy at the awesome stuff the pure wizard got. remember the 5th commandment of optimization: "Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice." there are *very* few things you can give to a wizard that are more valuable than casting higher level spells sooner and more frequently.

I don't care if you *do* get your fancy schmancy armour. I get to be a wizard casting sleep while you're derping around as a half-assed fighter with mediocre dexterity for 2 levels. then I get to cast web while you've got sleep (as often as you can cast sleep, come to think of it), except sleep isn't that good any more. then when you get web, I get hypnotic pattern, and so on. you're always a step behind. you can't cast the spells that a pure wizard can, you have fewer resources, and your claim to fame makes you run out of resources even faster.

if I'm *that* desperate for armour and con saves... I'll dip artificer, thanks. I'll still be behind, but I'll be a lot closer.

J.C. does not play Dungeons&Dragons; he plays a weird tournament-style PvP game that uses some of Dungeons&Dragons rules (i.e character building/combat/monster stats/spells), but those rules don't care at all about things like adventuring, roleplaying, playing a campaign, levelling up, etc. That's why his perspective is so skewed; he does not play the same game most of us do (assuming, of course, that the secret, quasi-mythical, ILPBDD- International League of Professional-Betting-D&D actually exists)

Nothing wrong with playing such a game, of course, if he enjoys it. But it is so different from the usual assumptions of "vanilla D&D" as to create this confusion about "Fighter2/Wizard 18 is worse than Wizard 20 because of all the time you spent being a worse Wizard". For J.C., such considerations are irrelevant.

[J.C.]

J.C. does not play Dungeons&Dragons; he plays a weird tournament-style PvP game that uses some of Dungeons&Dragons rules (i.e character building/combat/monster stats/spells), but those rules don't care at all about things like adventuring, roleplaying, playing a campaign, levelling up, etc. That's why his perspective is so skewed; he does not play the same game most of us do (assuming, of course, that the secret, quasi-mythical, ILPBDD- International League of Professional-Betting-D&D actually exists)

Nothing wrong with playing such a game, of course, if he enjoys it. But it is so different from the usual assumptions of "vanilla D&D" as to create this confusion about "Fighter2/Wizard 18 is worse than Wizard 20 because of all the time you spent being a worse Wizard". For J.C., such considerations are irrelevant.

Nope. I develop my builds in normal play. Playing a Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 just presents different challenges and you learn a different style of Wizardry than a classic Wizard 20. After playing a standard Wizard, why not explore other builds and explore their RP challenges?

Stormwind Fallacy. Heard of it?

[Ortho]

remember the 5th commandment of optimization: "Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."

There are commandments for optimizing? I'd like to see that list sometime.


Nope. I develop my builds in normal play. Playing a Fighter 2/ Wizard 18 just presents different challenges and you learn a different style of Wizardry than a classic Wizard 20. After playing a standard Wizard, why not explore other builds and explore their RP challenges?

Stormwind Fallacy. Heard of it?

We were discussing the mechanical aspects of such a build. Roleplaying doesn't factor into that.

[J.C.]

There are commandments for optimizing? I'd like to see that list sometime.



We were discussing the mechanical aspects of such a build. Roleplaying doesn't factor into that.

Sure. As long as we agree that roleplaying isn't an actual concern here when we are talking about a Fighter 2 / Wizard 18. Those who have a concern should refer to the Stormwind Fallacy.

[Darth Credence]

in Return of the Jedi, Luke allowed himself to be captured because he knew that his presence had been detected and he was trying to cover for his friends by making it look like he was the only one there, on a solo mission. the plan was *never* "I'm going to go to Endor and get captured", it was "I'm going to sneak onto the planet with my friends and blow up the shield generator without getting detected".

getting captured is what he did *after* he realized he'd screwed things up royally, gotten detected, and was a risk to the rest of his team.

then he figured his friends would be unexpected and oops, turns out the Emperor knew about that entire plan too, I can't help but suspect that maybe the person who underestimated their enemies might not be who you thought it was.

furthermore, nobody on the other side underestimated his power. the Emperor was frying him to a slow and painful death while Luke could do nothing about it, until Darth Vader decided he didn't like watching his son be slowly murdered by his master while he watched and lobbed the Emperor off a convenient ledge into essentially a bottomless pit full of exploding reactor core.

and you know what? Luke defeating Vader accomplished basically nothing in terms of winning that battle. in what was functionally a miracle the most powerful technological force in the galaxy lost a largely head-on battle against stone age furballs assisted by a handful of commandos with sub-par equipment, the shield was destroyed, the death star core hit, and the death star blew up... *with both of the Sith on it that you're implying Luke had a fight that was in any way meaningful*... and would have done so regardless of Luke's ability to fight Darth Vader (and inability to put up any sort of meaningful resistance to the Emperor's force lightning) or resist turning to the dark side.

Luke's plan to get captured stunk, and he knew it. that's why it was never plan A. it was plan "whoops, let's try and salvage the colossal screwup that happened when LUKE underestimated HIS enemies".

I believe that the plan being referred to was the beginning of RotJ, when he plans to get captured to free Han, and Jabba underestimates his powers. He even warns Jabba not to underestimate his powers, but Jabba does anyway.

Now, I don't find this a good comparison to the question of whether or not a wizard is going to go along with being strapped into a suit of armor, or having their limbs lopped off, because that seems closer to the stage of being tossed into the sarlacc than being captured and put on the sail barge, but it is not the situation you are responding to.

[bid]

Sure. As long as we agree that roleplaying isn't an actual concern here when we are talking about a Fighter 2 / Wizard 18. Those who have a concern should refer to the Stormwind Fallacy.
The level 19 ASI fallacy is a much bigger concern than random words thrown around.
Bluff can only get you so far.

[J.C.]

The level 19 ASI fallacy is a much bigger concern than random words thrown around.
Bluff can only get you so far.

What fallacy is that?

[dmhelp]

What about this party?

Warlock 20
Warlock 17/fighter 2/X 1
Warlock 17/paladin 2/X 1

So 1 invocation 1 asi and capstone vs action surge per short rest plus something or double smite plus something.

Does warlock 20 need anything? If so, what?