Melf's Minute Meteors VS Fireball?

[QQinfinity]

As much as I like fireball, I really don't understand why people think Melf's Minute Meteors can't compare to fireball.

Fireball damage is 8d6, Minute Meteor is 2d6 times 6; so 12d6. Fireball has bigger explosion radius but Meteors are capable of hitting 3x3 squares ('a point in range' + 'all blocks within 5ft of the point') which is already plenty.

[ImproperJustice]

Instant Gratification vs. long term investing.

I like Melf’s on my Eks, but for Sorcerer or Wizard, Fireball is something nice to toss out in addition to whatever control spell I have active.

[LudicSavant]

As much as I like fireball, I really don't understand why people think Melf's Minute Meteors can't compare to fireball.

Fireball damage is 8d6, Minute Meteor is 2d6 times 6; so 12d6. Fireball has bigger explosion radius but Meteors are capable of hitting 3x3 squares ('a point in range' + 'all blocks within 5ft of the point') which is already plenty.

They're not really for the same thing. Minute Meteors is a Concentration precast you use to maximize your narrow-target damage over time. Fireball is a non-Concentration blast you use to wipe large groups ASAP. Both are useful spells IMHO.

As for the question of "why do people think X," all I can say to that is that you can find people on the internet who think X, regardless of what X is.

[Mastikator]

Damage now is better than damage later, the sooner you wipe out an enemy the less damage they can do to you and your party. If you can wipe out a group of minions or bring them into one-shot range from the warriors then you've greatly reduced the enemy's offensive capability.

[hamishspence]

I'm curious - which splatbook has Melf's Minute Meteors, updated to 3.0 or 3.5? I couldn't find the spell in my collection.

EDIT - forgot this was 5e. There may not be a 3.5 version.

[Kane0]

Its a blast spell that needs concentration, when usually you lay down a buff or control spell then blast.

Most combats last 3-6 rounds and the spell lasts up to 10 mins, so even if you dont lose conc theres a very real risk you wont get full use of the spell

The damage you can deal with it is limited to half that of a fireball on the same turn

The area is dramatically smaller

So its use-case is much more limited. However it does scale better than fireball if you are in a position that you want to use minute meteors.

[Kuu Lightwing]

5e guide on how to make a spell much less desirable:

Duration: Concentration...

Such a deal breaker sometimes.

[Unoriginal]

IIRC, Melf's Minute Meteors was created when Melf nearly died due to miscalculating his Fireball radius, since at the time you had to estimate distances and AoE's sizes, so he worked on a spell allowing more controlled bursts of fire.

Nowadays, this is generally not a problem, making the spell less useful as it is.

[AttilatheYeon]

Why not use both? After all, MMM is a bonus action to use. If you precast M3, you can even open up with Fireball, then launch some Missiles.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Melf's Minute Meteors doesn't set unattended objects alight.
One doesn't want to use a Fireball, in their favorite tavern after all.🍻

I've always liked the spell...(and Crown of Stars, and Ioun Stones...I must like things that whorl around one's head).

I've heard the same origin story for the spell that Unoriginal, stated above. Luke Gygax grew tired of barbecuing the party and created an alternative spell.

[ImproperJustice]

The times I have used it, I have been pleased. The GM hates all the mini saves, but we frequently get attacked from multiple sides and anagles, and we have several “pro melee” party members, so it is easier to use in those circumstances but other groups mileage will vary.
Likewise Tidal Wave is a nifty spell because the AOE is easy to aim.

[heavyfuel]

Concentration breaks this spell.

I'm a firm believer that "damage over time" spells like MMM, Flaming Sphere, and Fire Arrows (why can I only think of fire spells?) should not be Concentration as a general rule

Dealing 12d6 over 4 rounds isn't nearly as useful as dealing 8d6 in one round, especially since you're probably dealing 8d6 to more enemies. If you're trying to increase your single target damage, then there are better spells, like Haste.

When you have to choose between an increase to your sustained damage or a massive battlefield control (Fear/Hyp. Pattern/Web), it's a pretty clear win to the BFC 9 times out 10.

So, the only time MMM is worth it is when you don't want to use BFC, and you want single target damage, while still dealing a very slight AoE.

This means you're never going to spend one of your precious spells prepared/known on it.

Edit: Witch bolt! Finally remembered a non-fire spell that deals damage over time!

[RedMage125]

As much as I like fireball, I really don't understand why people think Melf's Minute Meteors can't compare to fireball.

Fireball damage is 8d6, Minute Meteor is 2d6 times 6; so 12d6. Fireball has bigger explosion radius but Meteors are capable of hitting 3x3 squares ('a point in range' + 'all blocks within 5ft of the point') which is already plenty.

Minor point, but if you're playing with squares, all AoEs target an intersection of lines. So the corner of one square. That's why the fireball template looks like it does. So "all blocks within 5 ft of a point" is a 2x2 square AoE, not a 3x3.

[heavyfuel]

Minor point, but if you're playing with squares, all AoEs target an intersection of lines. So the corner of one square. That's why the fireball template looks like it does. So "all blocks within 5 ft of a point" is a 2x2 square AoE, not a 3x3.

What have you done.... It's going to be the Bonfire debate all over again! :smalleek:

[AttilatheYeon]

Minor point, but if you're playing with squares, all AoEs target an intersection of lines. So the corner of one square. That's why the fireball template looks like it does. So "all blocks within 5 ft of a point" is a 2x2 square AoE, not a 3x3.

Not all AoEs. Just the ones that have a radius and dont emanate from a creature or object.

[RedMage125]

Not all AoEs. Just the ones that have a radius and dont emanate from a creature or object.

So...like I said. All AoEs which originate from "a point in space" use an intersection of lines when using a grid.

[Ortho]

Concentration breaks this spell.

I'm a firm believer that "damage over time" spells like MMM, Flaming Sphere, and Fire Arrows (why can I only think of fire spells?) should not be Concentration as a general rule

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If they weren't concentration, you'd be able to stack Flaming Sphere and Melf's Minute Meteors and the like on top of one another.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If they weren't concentration, you'd be able to stack Flaming Sphere and Melf's Minute Meteors and the like on top of one another.

Is it really a problem, given that both compete for your bonus action?

[Chronic]

It would because layering instant spells and Dot spells would make casters even more powerful than they already are, which is plenty.

[heavyfuel]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If they weren't concentration, you'd be able to stack Flaming Sphere and Melf's Minute Meteors and the like on top of one another.


It would because layering instant spells and Dot spells would make casters even more powerful than they already are, which is plenty.

While I agree with the general sentiment that casters are plenty powerful, I don't think this is really the point.

The point is that DoT spells are a very suboptimal way of spending Concentration, so you what you end up with are spells that aren't worth the printer ink they use since no-one ever learns/prepares.

As Kuu Lightwing both of these spells compete for your BA, so you'd still have to choose between dealing damage with FS or with MMM. Even a spell like Flame Arrow is probably okay. 12d6 if you hit AC over at least 6 rounds is definitely worse that Fireball's 8d6 in an AoE in a single round.

The cost of these spells should be the action cost they have, on top of the obvious resource cost.

This would be a buff to casters, sure. But it's not a buff that can't be easily houseruled away (since we're already houseruling). Drop the damage from 2d6 to something like 1d10 and you probably made these spells weaker, but less situational.

[SLOTHRPG95]

MMM and Fireball aren't necessarily in direct competition, and can indeed complement each other. If you have the spell slots to spare and enough advance notice to pre-cast, you round one fireball plus bonus action expend two meteors. The meteors can further soften targets who succeeded on their save vs. your fireball, or it can help mop up heavily-wounded targets.