RAW way to change bonus feats gained at 1st level!

[Max Caysey]

So apparently the light, medium and heavy armor proficiency, as well as shield proficiency are gained as bonus feats at first level of fighter - as per the RAW, under the feat descriptions.

However, when playing a dex based arcane gish, I'm using neither. I personally feel its stupid having 4 feats I'm never going to use, so what can be done to change/retrain them?

My DM argues, that the retraining rules in PHB2 are only for feats I have actively chosen, so I can't retrain them away that way... what other options to I have?

Also, would I be correct in saying that if you multiclass, you can gain the same feats multiple times - resulting in multiple sources of the same feat, thus opening op for retraining even more feats???

Also, would you allow this at your table and why/why not?


Cheers!

PS: I understand that this might rub some the wrong way, but I really feel that when playing an unarmored arcane figther mage, I'm essentially wasting 4 feats a classical sword and board fighter wouldn't... and well it rubs me the wrong way having a feat I'm never going to use... let alone having four of them... So what would you suggest I do, if I were a player at your table???

PPS: The feats I want to retrain to are: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility...

[Troacctid]

Just cast embrace the dark chaos and replace them with abyssal heritor feats of your choice.

[Gnaeus]

I wouldn’t allow you to retrain them.

I would probably allow you to use the retraining/rebuilding rules to dump fighter altogether for a variant or another class. Like Swashbuckler or Thug Fighter. If you were a player at my table I’d tell you to find something you can legally swap them for or keep them on your sheet and don’t use them. Or do and employ one of the many ways to cast in armor.

[Max Caysey]

I wouldn’t allow you to retrain them.

I would probably allow you to use the retraining/rebuilding rules to dump fighter altogether for a variant or another class. Like Swashbuckler or Thug Fighter. If you were a player at my table I’d tell you to find something you can legally swap them for or keep them on your sheet and don’t use them. Or do and employ one of the many ways to cast in armor.

But I don't want to use armor ever, i'm casting spells, which are better than any armor in the game... so that would be stupid. But why would you not allow it? Would it be too extreme to think that the way I were schooled in sword fighting were done without the training in armor or shield but in some other way? Dodge for instance?

Basically what I'm asking is what do you do, when there is no class in the game that fits your concept? Would it be too much then to ask to alter the closest class to accommodate your concept? Or do you then feel I should chance my concept to fit the class?

Do you change your concept to fit class or change the class to fit the concept?

[Gnaeus]

I built this Warmage but I don’t actually plan to use this spell on my list because others are better. Can I swap it for something I don’t get? No. The class doesn’t work that way. 3.5 is a very modular system, but you can’t trade everything. I recommend you examine GURPS. Or hey, Pathfinder has like 50 fighter archetypes. One of them probably does what you want.

Pretty clearly, fighter is better for you than any of the alternatives (swashbuckler, ranger, monk, Hexblade, Duskblade etc). Because fighter gives you a bonus feat you can choose. It doesn’t give you 5 bonus feats you can choose. There are TONS of pure fighters, like every archer and almost every dex build, that would love to trade out shields and heavy armor for 2 other feats. Every 2handed fighter, which is probably most optimized fighters, would happily trade shield for ANYTHING. But you can’t. You can take your 2 skill points from thug and be glad you got something for an ability you don’t plan to use (but that costs your bonus feat so probably not worth it). And after you write “light armor” on your character sheet you can draw a line through it if you want. Or take Armored Mage. Or Dragonscale Husk. You have existing options. Most of them just suck.

[gijoemike]

Those proficiencies are built into the class chassis. I know many people say you can shuffle dark chaos those away but I have always disliked that. The base fighter class is a heavily armored trained fighter that focuses on almost every weapon. There was another thread a few days back that wanted to switch out all bardic songs. There isn't an acf for that in 3.5. Bards use performances fighters use armor.

You could say in the early training your character was taught to use various armors but just disliked them and has never used them since. Or use an ACF from a class so that some of these wasted abilities turn into something else.


Why does it have to be fighter? What feat are you taking at that moment that you cannot obtain from anything else?

[Troacctid]

For fighter specifically, there are at least four or five ACFs that trade away your armor proficiencies.

[Aleolus]

Technically speaking, your armor proficiencies as a fighter aren't 'feats', they are class features, therefore things that affect or change feats cannot target or do anything to them. If it really matters that much, I would suggest using whatever ACFs you can to trade them out, then perhaps seeing if your DM will allow you to use the Defense Bonus from Unearthed Arcana. Using that, you would get a +6 to your AC at level one, which goes up at three and every third level after that. The Defense bonus also applies to Touch AC, though it doesn't specify if it also applies to FF or not (doesn't matter if you can get yourself Uncanny Dodge somehow, though)

[Max Caysey]

For fighter specifically, there are at least four or five ACFs that trade away your armor proficiencies.

What options are there for a Moon elf fighter spcifically?

I was looking at drow figther, but im not drow... donÂ’t remember seeing any that fit besides that...

There are two overarching reasons I would want the mechanics to fit concept more.

Obviously, having more feats opens more additional fighting options... one could get some of the AoO-feats, or parry feats or disarm...

Likewise, this is a roped, single blade style acrobatic fencing fighter, similarly to
Prince Nuada... who dodges, ducks, dips, dives and dodges... it would make little sende to carry these armor and shield feats, from a purely conceptual stand point.

ItÂ’s pretty darned difficult to represent this mechanically, in my opinion, with so few feats... I also have 3 prerequisite feats which limits me even more, therefore 4 additional feats would be great.

Oh and Im not liking the idea that IÂ’m effectively being penalized as a fighter because IÂ’m not using sword and board knight style...

The reason IÂ’ve never thought of this before is because I thought it was class abilities that gave proficiency, not bonus feats... and to my mind a bonus feat is a bonus feat...



Technically speaking, your armor proficiencies as a fighter aren't 'feats', they are class features, therefore things that affect or change feats cannot target or do anything to them.

Strictly speaking this is not true. If you read the different armor and shield feats they are specifically called out as being given as bonus feats!

[Troacctid]

What options are there for a Moon elf fighter spcifically?
Thug, hit and run, armored mage, corsair, fencer, horseman, and kensai.

[bean illus]

Strictly speaking this is not true. If you read the different armor and shield feats they are specifically called out as being given as bonus feats!

Strictly speaking, you're right (i think). This is one of those rare instances where almost everyone agrees not to use RAW.

Why did you need a fighter level, in the first place? Maybe we can help fix the original need.


What options are there for a Moon elf fighter spcifically?

... martial rogue, monk, factotum ...

[Draconi Redfir]

i think you might be reading a bit too much into this. You don't have to use the proficiencies, you just have them for if you do. The feats are primarily there for if you're a low-armor class like a wizard who wants to take the steps to wear higher armor. or if you're a medium armor class like Barbarian who wants to wear heavier armor. Unless you're actually spending the feat to gain a new ability, you don't actually consider them feats or write them on your sheet, they're just things you can do. just because you CAN do them though, doesn't mean you NEED too.

If you're really determined to remove your proficiencies, you could always look into some Archetypes. i'm not sure if you're in pathfinder or 3.5, but they should be mostly compatible either way. The Aquanaut (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/aquanaut-fighter-archetype) for example doesn't have heavy armor proficiency. Probably not specifically what you're looking for, but options may be out there.

edit: if you're looking for dodging and being light of step, Skirmisher (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/skirmisher-fighter-archetype/)could be an option?

edit 2: Lore Warden (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/lore-warden-fighter-archetype)could work well actually. extra skill points, but no armor proficiencies at all so far as i can tell.

[Saint-Just]

I agree that RAW starting armour proficiencies are bonus feats; that is undeniable. While not a huge fan of a arguing the RAW minutae I am kinda on the side of "you do not chose those bonus feats so you can't retrain them".

In general I'd rather look for ACFs (including adapting ACFs from other settings; WotC was printing all those innumerable "Adaptation" paragraphs exactly because they wanted to give slightly-more-official-than-homebrew options for DMs who may be not willing to risk inventing new classes out of a whole cloth).

[ThanatosZero]

Instead on being so dead set on RAW like it is a unmuteable monument, it should be in the DM's ability to reach a compromise with their players.

"So you want a more magically adept fighter? Give up a all your armor profiencies, fighter bonus feats and a decrease from d10 HDs down to d8 HDs to gain a 3/4 spellcasting progression, but full caster level -1 for the spellcasting class of their choice. The spellcasting progression will turn active as soon as you multiclass with the chosen spellcasting class, even retroactively.

A Sorcerer 2/Magic Fighter 18 will have 19 BAB, CL 19 and 15/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting."

[Max Caysey]

Instead on being so dead set on RAW like it is a unmuteable monument, it should be in the DM's ability to reach a compromise with their players.

"So you want a more magically adept fighter? Give up a all your armor profiencies, fighter bonus feats and a decrease from d10 HDs down to d8 HDs to gain a 3/4 spellcasting progression, but full caster level -1 for the spellcasting class of their choice. The spellcasting progression will turn active as soon as you multiclass with the chosen spellcasting class, even retroactively.

A Sorcerer 2/Magic Fighter 18 will have 19 BAB, CL 19 and 15/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting."

I actually suggested that I could throw together a variant that fitted the athletic/ acrobatic elven blade master idea I have going, but he feared that might be introducing too much homebrew!... He might very well be correct in that assessment, however I’m pretty bummed out about having 4 feats lying around doing nothing...

[ciopo]

Why are you gishing with figther levels? Perhabs there are other classes that would fit your concept better?

[ThanatosZero]

I actually suggested that I could throw together a variant that fitted the athletic/ acrobatic elven blade master idea I have going, but he feared that might be introducing too much homebrew!... He might very well be correct in that assessment, however I’m pretty bummed out about having 4 feats lying around doing nothing...
4 lines of text are not much homebrew. Instead you become a better Battle Sorcerer, which only has a slowed down spellcasting progression using the variant fighter as a pseudo-prestige class.

Another option is to apply the changes to the Battle Dancer from the Dragon Copendium instead.
You keep the CHA to AC and the unarmed strike progression, but lose all other class features and AC increases past level 1 in return of 3/4 spellcasting progression of the spellcasting class of your choice and full caster level -1. You still need to multiclass with the chosen spellcasting class to receive the benefits (also retroactively).

You got the Arcane Dervish or Divine Dervish.

[Max Caysey]

Why are you gishing with figther levels? Perhabs there are other classes that would fit your concept better?

I actually like fighter, it’s just about me trying to make it fit... but mainly it’s about getting feats... as many feats as possible ... having 5 bonus feats at level 1 seems like a good deal if it’s feats you’re after!

[bean illus]

"So you want a more magically adept fighter? d8 HDs ... 3/4 spellcasting progression, ... caster level -1 ...

...19 BAB, CL 19 and 15/20 Sorcerer Spellcasting."

Would you like suggestions on how to build an arcane gish, with avg d8 HD, high BAB, 7th level arcane spells, and CL 19?

[ThanatosZero]

I actually like fighter, it’s just about me trying to make it fit... but mainly it’s about getting feats... as many feats as possible ... having 5 bonus feats at level 1 seems like a good deal if it’s feats you’re after!

I have a RAW gish build, which is functional and even better than a Blade Singer.

Bard 1/Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Bard +6 (7)/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 2

16 BAB, 10/10 Sublime Chord Spellcasting, Swift Abjurant Spells, Charisma to AC and Saves.
Get yourself Snowflake Wardance and Power Atttack, then you are ready to go down into town.


Would you like suggestions on how to build an arcane gish, with avg d8 HD, high BAB, 7th level arcane spells, and CL 19?

I have a Duskblade version.

Sun Elf (+2 Int, -2 Con) 32pb

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 15 -> 20

Duskblade 9/ Warrior Skald 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/Bladesinger 1

Level build
1st Duskblade (Flaws: Shaky, Weak Will) (Bonus Feats: Iron Will, Dodge, Apprentice:Entertainer)
2nd Duskblade
3rd Duskblade (Feat: Power Attack)
4th Duskblade (Charisma +1)
5th Duskblade
6th Duskblade (Feat: Cleave)
7th Duskblade
8th Duskblade (Charisma +1)
9th Duskblade (Feat: Combat Expertise)
10th Warrior Skald
11th Sublime Chord
12th Sublime Chord (Feat: Weapon Focus Longsword) (Charsma +1)
13th Spellsword
14th Abjurant Champion
15th Abjurant Champion (Feat)
16th Abjurant Champion (Charsma +1)
17th Abjurant Champion
18th Abjurant Champion (Feat)
19th Dragonslayer
20th Bladesinger (Charsma +1)

Base Attack Bonus
19

Caster Level
19

Spellcasting
9/20 Duskblade, 10/10 Sublime Chord

Saves by Classes
Fortitude: 6+2+2+1+2 = 13
Reflex: 3+2+1+2 = 8
Will: 6+3+2+4+2+2= 16

Final Saves
Fortitude: 14 (+1 Con)
Reflex: 10 (+2 Dex)
Will: 14 (-3 Flaw, +2 Feat, -1 Wis)

[bean illus]

I have a RAW gish build, which is functional and even better than a Blade Singer.

Bard 1/Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Bard +6 (7)/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 2

16 BAB, 10/10 Sublime Chord Spellcasting, Swift Abjurant Spells, Charisma to AC and Saves.
Get yourself Snowflake Wardance and Power Atttack, then you are ready to go down into town.



I have a Duskblade version.

Sun Elf (+2 Int, -2 Con) 32pb

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 15 -> 20

Duskblade 9/ Warrior Skald 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragonslayer 1/Bladesinger 1

Level build
1st Duskblade (Flaws: Shaky, Weak Will) (Bonus Feats: Iron Will, Dodge, Apprentice:Entertainer)
2nd Duskblade
3rd Duskblade (Bonus Feat: Power Attack)
4th Duskblade (Charisma +1)
5th Duskblade
6th Duskblade (Bonus Feat: Cleave)
7th Duskblade
8th Duskblade (Charisma +1)
9th Duskblade (Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise)
10th Warrior Skald
11th Sublime Chord
12th Sublime Chord (Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus Longsword) (Charsma +1)
13th Spellsword
14th Abjurant Champion
15th Abjurant Champion (Bonus Feat)
16th Abjurant Champion (Charsma +1)
17th Abjurant Champion
18th Abjurant Champion (Bonus Feat)
19th Dragonslayer
20th Bladesinger (Charsma +1)

Base Attack Bonus
19

Saves by Classes
Fortitude: 6.+ 2+ 2+ 1+ 2 = 13
Reflex: 3+ 2+ 1+ 2 = 8
Will: 6+ 3+ 2+ 4+ 2+ 2= 16

Final Saves
Fortitude: 14 (+1 Con)
Reflex: 10 (+2 Dex)
Will: 14 (-3 Flaw, +2 Feat, -1 Wis)

Those look like nice builds to me.

[Draconi Redfir]

I’m pretty bummed out about having 4 feats lying around doing nothing...

you don't have 4 feats laying around doing nothing, you have some class-based proficiencies that you can just choose not to use.

it's like being upset that you're able to grow hair when you actively choose to shave your head. It's not a problem, it's just something that's kinda there but not important.

[Max Caysey]

I have a very particular taste when it comes to my build. I want Int-based casters first of all. I understand that my Gish might not be the most optimized way of building it, and that's ok... this is more about me trying to get the game mechanics to fit the backstory and concept more accurately. No doubt what I'm trying to do here is certainly going to make it better in combat, but more than anything it'll make it more interesting to play.

I asked my DM directly about his concerns and they were primarily based on fairness issues in regards to the other players... a point I understand somewhat...



you don't have 4 feats laying around doing nothing, you have some class-based proficiencies that you can just choose not to use.

it's like being upset that you're able to grow hair when you actively choose to shave your head. It's not a problem, it's just something that's kinda there but not important.

In my particular build scenario, they do just lie around. In my humble opinion its also not the same. Its like saying you have been trained in how to use all manners of armor, and shield even though my back story says i haven't... personally I don't find it extravagant or odious to imagine that one can have something else instead of just ignoring 4 feats... Just ignoring 4 feats seems woefully sub-optimized, especially for a class that doesn't have much going for it...

I have been looking into the ACFs and variant classes, but non of them fit the mold very well. In my opinion there are a few that get close tho.

1) Kensai. But its seems almost like a worse version of the standard fighter. Not only do you not get anything in return for the lack of medium, heavy and shield proficiency, you also do not get a bonus feat at level 1. Instead you get +1 attack and damage. Which again, is not as good as the four feats you don't get.

2) Exoticist. You get all the armor and shield, all simple and 4 exotic weapons. I did actually want to use an exotic weapon, so thats nice, but I still have all the armor and shield, which I don't want.

3) Drow fighter. This seems like a good thing. Only circumstatial, because my build does not have feats enought to feint, thus my enemies wont really be flat-footed in anything except the first round... Also, im not a drow.

So concept wise I identify as this:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7d/cc/f8/7dccf8bbf84dc452bc83fdb7149c7624.jpg

But I feel stuck with this:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/03/37/b0033796b4fa20cece10636ad499256b.jpg

So my first suggestion was simply to retrain them into something useful. Like Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise. Those feats makes sense in my build, my backstory and are neither broken nor cheesy.

But its great with some views on this issue... that's really all one can hope for. RAW-wise it seems I'm stuck chaos shuffeling them away when we get access to 8th level spells somehow.


EDIT: Would anyone be willing to throw something homebrewed together as a possible idea to present to my DM... like a homebrew version of a variant fighter? I could certainly use the inspiration!

[bean illus]

... , they do just lie around. In my humble opinion its also not the same. Its like saying you have been trained in how to use all manners of armor, and shield even though my back story says i haven't ...


Then you need to change either your backstory, or your build, to reconcile them.



personally I don't find it extravagant or odious to imagine that one can have something else instead of just ignoring 4 feats... Just ignoring 4 feats seems woefully sub-optimized, especially for a class that doesn't have much going for it...


Then, perhaps you should change your build.



I have been looking into the ACFs and variant classes, but non of them fit the mold very well. In my opinion there are a few that get close tho.


Have you considered some other class, besides fighter?



... Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise. Those feats makes sense in my build, my backstory and are neither broken nor cheesy.


I like it. Consider adding a Duskblade 1 dip: Duskblade 1/Fighter 1

1. Improved Initiative
Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise

2. FF: Power Attack
Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon (spiked chain).

Damn, that's nice. Maybe Duskblde 13?

(technically, WwA needs bab +4)

Four feats at a time is going to make martial study fun. Oh, yeah! Warblade gets four feats also? Nice.


RAW-wise it seems I'm stuck chaos shuffeling them away when we get access to 8th level spells somehow.


Your DM likely still won't let you retrain them.
Class feature feats are like riding a bicycle, you never forget them. It's true for Ranger combat feats/etc, also. Talk to your DM though, he might let you.



EDIT: Would anyone be willing to throw something homebrewed together as a possible idea to present to my DM... like a homebrew version of a variant fighter? I could certainly use the inspiration!

So far, I can't really figure out what you're trying to do. For instance:

1 Why do you want levels in fighter?

2 How many levels are free, in your build?

3 Do you want those four feats? Or, do you just need one feat, but wanted to maximize what you get with it?

4 Have you considered Martial Rogue? You get the feat that you want, and an arcane gish gets enough skill points to choke a horse.

[Gruftzwerg]

3) Drow fighter. This seems like a good thing. Only circumstatial, because my build does not have feats enought to feint, thus my enemies wont really be flat-footed in anything except the first round... Also, im not a drow.

Alternative race choices would be either Deepwyrm Half-Drow or Changeling (with Racial Emulation feat).

To flat-foot the enemies you have 3 simple options:

1) Collar of Perpetual Attendance 2K g
Gives you an Unseen Servant all day long. Have enough Marbles (2s) and command him to drop em into the enemy spaces. at will (iirc)

2) Drow House Insignia (spell) 1st=620g; 2nd=3,300g; 3rd=8,200g
A Drow House Insignia with the Ice Slick spell (Cleric 1st, as Grease but 20ft square). Usable 1/day. Get more charges/day with the rules for stacking magical effects on items (the item description mentions that higher drows tend to have multiple spells on it).

3) Eternal Wand of Grease.
as arcane caster you can use eternal wands even if you don't know the spell.

[Telonius]

So far, I can't really figure out what you're trying to do. For instance:

1 Why do you want levels in fighter?

2 How many levels are free, in your build?

3 Do you want those four feats? Or, do you just need one feat, but wanted to maximize what you get with it?

4 Have you considered Martial Rogue? You get the feat that you want, and an arcane gish gets enough skill points to choke a horse.


Question 1 was actually the first one that came to my mind. Is there a reason that you need Fighter levels, specifically? There are other base classes that get all martial weapons, without the armor you aren't using. (Ranger, Swashbuckler, Warblade and Swordsage, for example).

[Draconi Redfir]

So concept wise I identify as this:


But I feel stuck with this:



Well here's the thing: You don't need to play that 2nd option. you have my permission to not wear heavy armor and to not use a sword and shield, that is 100% okay. Again, check out the Pathfinder fighter archetypes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/), some of them like the Lore Warden change or remove those proficiencies in exchange for different things. i can't promise it'll be perfect, and you probably won't get your dodge and other feats in at level 1, but you might get something worthwhile out of it. In fact, here's a full table of what each archetype does or doesn't change, it's at the bottom of the fighter page if you want to look at it yourself. if it has an "X" or a "C" in the highlighted column, then that means the armor/weapon proficiencies have been changed, and you might get something more lightly armored like what you're looking for.

https://i.imgur.com/NseUr6U.png

Pathfinder and 3.5 are incredibly compatible. it shouldn't take much work at all to make pathfinder stuff work in 3.5. if you see the word "Stealth" somewhere, just change it to "move silently" and the like.


Its like saying you have been trained in how to use all manners of armor, and shield even though my back story says i haven't
Simple fix: You have a natural affinity for them. Or you tried them on once and didn't like it, so you took it off. but you still know the basic knowledge on how to put them on and take them off. Or heck, maybe you just carried a lot of heavy stuff as a kid so you know how to handle the weight on your shoulders. None of this means you're required to use them at all.

I've got a fighter myself who only wears leather armor due to spending the past five years living on a boat. Wouldn't make sense to wear full-plate while sailing across the ocean after all. She's Able to wear full plate and a shield, but she just chooses not too due to being more comfortable in light armor and using her off-hand to throw Javelins rather then wield a shield. The Proficiencies just give her the option to go heavy armor and/or shields if she changes her mind. For example, one of the other player characters is specialized in using a Bo-staff, but also started the game with a shield just in case. While going into combat, that PC decided to focus on the staff use, so offered to loan out the shield to someone. My character was the only one capable of using shields at the time, and we knew the combat would be dangerous going in, so she took it just to give her a bit of an extra edge. The tradeoff was that if she missed with a right-handed Javelin throw or a melee attack in general, then it was flavored that it was the shield throwing her off, nothing more.

You'll still get those feats you want through fighter bonus feats and via levelling up. trying to trade away class features for extra feats is just levels of Min-maxing that DM's dread, like trying to trade away your ability to wink for improvised weapon proficiency: Furniture.

[GeoffWatson]

The armour and weapon feats are given out freely because they are crap. If you could swap them for whatever feats you wanted that would be too strong.

Maybe swap all three armour profs for Dodge - it's also crap but is useful as a prerequisite.

[Max Caysey]

The armour and weapon feats are given out freely because they are crap. If you could swap them for whatever feats you wanted that would be too strong.

Maybe swap all three armour profs for Dodge - it's also crap but is useful as a prerequisite.

What could possible be too strong on a fighter? I'm genuinely curious?

Also, there have been a lot of good answers. I primarily want to go fighter specifically because of feats. Also, I dislike circumstantial damage like Dex to dam vs flat-footed and int to precision damage. My DM usually tries to counter all of that... Do you have calm emotions, he'll throw undead at you. So I want weapon specialization and weapon mastery.

But, I also want fighter, because I use an exotic weapon, which I finesse through Graceful Edge. So that's another feat. So, I need:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Weapon Focus
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Specialization
Graceful Edge.


Since I want to go Wizard and Abjuration Champion, I also need Combat Casting. My DM wont let me take Skill Focus (Concentration) instead.
I play a Moon Elf, and I'm not changing race, so I'm fairly starved for feats... and then I discover that I have 4 feats lying around and naturally I want to change them to some of the feats I need. I honestly don't think that's too much. We have a melee cleric Dweomerkeeper in the party... a dedicated wizard too, so I'm grinding out everything I can...

My wizard is combat wizard for extra fighter bonus feats, but I'm still fully loaded. My build does work, but I have nothing interesting to do in combat... Its buff up and walk into melee. What I'm trying to do here is gain access to combat reflexes, so I can take improved combat reflexes and eventually robilar's gambit. I also want Combat Expertise so I could take Improved disarm or parry (DR#301). Those would not only make it better, but also more interesting to play.

I have tried to explain the idea that I want this guy to be a robed, nimble, acrobatic, jedi-looking (using Ataru), einhander focused fighter/wizard...

That's the plan. I don't like any of the duskblade/hexblade classes that have their own spell list. I want full access to wizard spell list. I also gain 2 feats from 5 levels of combat wizard ACF, which is handy too. I'm also a Domain Wizard Variant, have School Focus ACF and Elf Generalist ACF. So I'm trying my best to make this a potent and interesting character.

I also want a minimum of +16 base attack at level 20, so I can have all 4 attacks. That's a must too. While I consider trying to gain Divine Power, I'm not sure I have the feats for Arcane Disciple, that would also not work with my current alignment... And while the Dweomerkeeper will be persisting that spell, using Divine Metamagic and Nightsticks, I would only be casting is as a normal spell. I won't be persisting spell at all. So its probably wont be worth it...

But, while I thoroughly appreciate your responses, it would seem that my last option for gaining relevant feats through the use of those 4 bonus feats, is Chaos Shuffling at a later stage. I wont get access to level 8 myself, so I either have to cast then via scrolls of employ some other wizard, we do have a full arcane spellcaster in the party, so at level 15.

Will we play to level 15? Who knows! Will he allow chaos shuffling at that point? Probably! Will it matter in the slightest, if gotten that late? Probably not! I don't think this party will reach lvl 20, but we have agreed that this is an open ended campaign, so it might. We currently play 1-2 times a month online using roll20.

Its not like my fighter isn't any good at its current constellation. I have high AC, good HP and good attack bonus... there is just nothing cool to do once I enter melee... that's the primary reason I want to change those feats. 60/40 Coolness/power...

I'm actually 99% sure he doesn't know any of the retraining methods (besides PHB2), like Psychic Reformation or Chaos Shuffling. IIRC, psychic reformation also targets actively chosen feats and abilities... and I didn't choose the 4 armor and shield feats. So that leaves chaos shuffling. I might actually tell him about it now, so he'll see, that eventually I can do it, whether he likes it or not... that might make him think, "whats the point..." and give in... or it might piss him off...

Anyways, it was great getting some views and insights. I now have a lot of thinking and perhaps redesigning to do. I will be looking into maybe going 3 levels of swashbuckler, but i really fear the DM will have fortification and throw undead and constructs at us... to counter that insightful strike... making normal fighter just a valid... I might also look into ToB and see if there is something there... Warblade seems to fit, it gives me access to weapon specialization, but I don't want to take more than 4-5 levels before I start wizard, so... I might also start a thread in the homebrew section about trying to build my nimble fighter variant... but we'll see!

Again, thanks for all the great and insightful comments!

Cheers!

[Maat Mons]

It's an inherent flaw of class-based games that people wind up with abilities they don't want or can't use. If this is the first time you've been frustrated by this fact, you're much luckier than most.

Lots of character are proficient with things they logically would never have received training for. Sorcerers are proficient with armor spikes, even though they're not proficient with armor. City guards are proficient with Maquahuitl, Aztec weapons which are basically wooden paddles with sharp bits of obsidian glued onto them. Why does their training program cover that?



If you were allowed to trade out bonus feats like this, think of the implications. Elves get Martial Weapon Proficiency four times as racial bonus feats. If they can trade those for actual useful feats, they're suddenly four times as good as humans. Clerics get four bonus feats for their armor and shield proficiencies. They get two more bonus feats if they take the War domain. They get another two more if they take the Metal domain. Cleric was already the best single-level dip in the game, they don't need to get eight selectable bonus feats too.

[ThanatosZero]

If you ask me, changing Spellsword with a ACF might be the best idea. Instead of lowering arcane spell failure, you get full spellcasting progression, with slightly different entering criteria.


As for your fighter, I have these quick homebrews.


Nimble Fighter
A cunning warrior, which forsakes any armor to fight unrestricted.

Gains: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, Intelligence bonus to AC instead), Dodge at 2nd level, Mobility at 3rd level and Combat Expertise at 4th level.
Loses: All armor and shield profiencies

Arcane Fighter
A scholar warrior blending sword and magic as one, which favours learning new magic over old fashioned tricks of fighting prowess.

Gains: Combat Casting at 2nd level; continued spellcasting progression (Spells per day and Spells known) of the spellcasting class of your choice, except at 1st level and each four level afterwards, but full advancement of Caster Level after 1st level; all class skills of the chosen spellcasting class.
Becomes active once multiclassed with the chosen spellcasting class (all changes also apply retroactively)
Loses: d10 Fighter HD reduced to d8 HD, all fighter bonus feats at the 1st level and each even level afterwards.

[Max Caysey]

If you ask me, changing Spellsword with a ACF might be the best idea. Instead of lowering arcane spell failure, you get full spellcasting progression, with slightly different entering criteria.


As for your fighter, I have this quick homebrews.


Nimble Fighter

Gains: INT to AC, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise
Loses: All armor and shield profiencies



Arcane Fighter

Gains: 3/4 spellcasting progression of the spellcasting class of your choice, but full CL -1. Becomes active once multiclassed with chosen class (all changes also reply retro actively)
Loses: d10 HD reduced to d8 HD, all fighter bonus feats at each even level.

Those are some nice easy fixes... I'l be checking them out against my build and by my DM.

Cheers!

[ThanatosZero]

Those are some nice easy fixes... I'l be checking them out against my build and by my DM.

Cheers!

Please let us know, once your build is done. :)

Also...
1st: I made a edit to the Arcane Fighter giving you Combat Casting, for giving up the 1st level Fighter bonus feat.
2nd: Here for you, the nimble spellsword.
Spellsword Variant: Nimble Spellsword

The nimble spellsword spends more time fighting and casting spells unarmored. They never train to cast spells in armor in exchange for to not negleting their studies in the arcane arts.

Since a nimble spellsword doesn't wear armor, they need to train how to evade enemy attacks, before qualifying as a new nimble spellsword.

Altered Requirements:
The nimble spellsword doesn't need proficiency with all armor (heavy, medium, and light). Instead they must have the feats Dogde, Mobility and Combat Expertise. All other non-mentioned requirements still need to be met.

Spells per day:
Because the nimble spellsword doesn't wear armor, they gain now at each new level new spells per day and spells known, as if they had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class they belonged to before adding the prestige class.

They still does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), save for an increased effective level of spellcasting.

If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a spellsword, they must decide to which class they adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

This replaces the Ignore Spell Failure class feature of the Spellsword.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626538-New-Alternative-Class-Features-for-base-and-prestige-classes&p=24914741#post24914741

3rd: Here what a build might look like with the homebrews combined.

Wizard 1/Nimble Arcane Fighter 4/Nimble Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Nimble Spellsword +9 (10)

[Vaern]

Its like saying you have been trained in how to use all manners of armor, and shield even though my back story says i haven't...

... EDIT: Would anyone be willing to throw something homebrewed together as a possible idea to present to my DM... like a homebrew version of a variant fighter? I could certainly use the inspiration!

The PHB actually recommends homebrewing variants for niche character concepts that don't quite fit the classes listed in the book, such as an enforcer/muscle for a thieves' guild may use the fighter as a template but exchange medium and heavy armor for a few extra class skills and skills per level.

[Max Caysey]

The PHB actually recommends homebrewing variants for niche character concepts that don't quite fit the classes listed in the book, such as an enforcer/muscle for a thieves' guild may use the fighter as a template but exchange medium and heavy armor for a few extra class skills and skills per level.

So... I can't seem to find this. Any chance you could provide a page number?

[ThanatosZero]

So... I can't seem to find this. Any chance you could provide a page number?

I will answer for Vaern. You will find the relevant entry on page 110 of the Player's Handbook.

As for your DM, on page 174 of Dungeon Master's Guide there are guidelines for altering and creating classes.

Also Unearthed Arcana speaks in detail about Class Variants and Alternative class features.

[Vaern]

I will answer for Vaern. You will find the relevant entry on page 110 of the Player's Handbook.

As for your DM, on page 174 of Dungeon Master's Guide there are guidelines for altering and creating classes.

Also Unearthed Arcana speaks in detail about Class Variants and Alternative class features.
Thanks, I'm a bit late to getting back to the thread :smalltongue:

For as much as people care about RAW around here like it's some rigid, absolute system that everything must conform to, pretty much every core and supplement book says literally everywhere that everything they supply you with for the system is just a suggestion and can be included, excluded, or modified in whatever way fits the game that you want to play, and gives you the tools and guidelines to do so.
Even the introduction to prestige classes in the DMG says, "The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes are the ones you tailor make yourself," and caps the section off with a few quick notes to keep in mind for creating your own prestige classes.

[GeoffWatson]

If you don't care about the rules and are willing to change whatever you want, why not just do that rather than asking how to do it within the rules?

[Gnaeus]

Thanks, I'm a bit late to getting back to the thread :smalltongue:

For as much as people care about RAW around here like it's some rigid, absolute system that everything must conform to, pretty much every core and supplement book says literally everywhere that everything they supply you with for the system is just a suggestion and can be included, excluded, or modified in whatever way fits the game that you want to play, and gives you the tools and guidelines to do so.
Even the introduction to prestige classes in the DMG says, "The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes are the ones you tailor make yourself," and caps the section off with a few quick notes to keep in mind for creating your own prestige classes.

I would interpret that to mean: “you should adjust these to fit the setting of your game” rather than “feel free to rewrite entrance requirements to stuff you already have on your sheet and the line that says a PRC grants armor or weapons just indicates how many bonus fighter feats it gives at first level once you swap these out”

[Vaern]

I would interpret that to mean: “you should adjust these to fit the setting of your game” rather than “feel free to rewrite entrance requirements to stuff you already have on your sheet and the line that says a PRC grants armor or weapons just indicates how many bonus fighter feats it gives at first level once you swap these out”
It's not suggesting that you adjust the listed prestige classes or their requirements to fit your game. It's literally telling you that you should build your own prestige classes from scratch, and that they should be extremely specific to whatever purpose you need them to fill.
And as for swapping out proficiencies, it's not necessarily going to be 1-for-1 feat trade. It's not even necessarily going to be feats for feats. The example given was a fighter exchanging armor and weapon proficiencies for extra class skills and skills per level. Besides, the books recommend doing this to make a class that fits the character concept you want to play, not as a way to give yourself a bunch of free stuff to min-max your character as much as possible. That's what they gave us the dark chaos shuffle is for.