Hide in plain sight question

[Spectre3541]

So I'm running a campaign and one of the PC's has hide in plain sight at lvl 6 from shadowdancer. I dont think that I quite understand how it works. According to the rules as I read them, it seems like he can make a hide check any time. And if he's hiding, he gets sneak attack? I really dont know how to make this work. Any help you forumites have would be more than welcome.

[Haakon]

Skill Requirements for Shadowdancer:

Skills

Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.

The player in question would need to be at least 7th level before qualifying for the class. The description in Shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

So the player would need to be within 10 feet of a shadow of any kind in order to be able to hide and if they do so, then yes, they would be able to sneak attack.

[dragonseth]

Skill Requirements for Shadowdancer:

Skills

Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.

The player in question would need to be at least 7th level before qualifying for the class. The description in Shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

So the player would need to be within 10 feet of a shadow of any kind in order to be able to hide and if they do so, then yes, they would be able to sneak attack.

Assuming the enemies didn't roll well on their spot checks.

[kamikasei]

So I'm running a campaign and one of the PC's has hide in plain sight at lvl 6 from shadowdancer. I dont think that I quite understand how it works. According to the rules as I read them, it seems like he can make a hide check any time. And if he's hiding, he gets sneak attack? I really dont know how to make this work. Any help you forumites have would be more than welcome.

What's the actual confusion? He can hide in shadows and if he successfully hides he can sneak attack, just like if he had hidden more conventionally. Is it causing a problem in the game?

[Haakon]

Doesn't really matter how well the people who are trying to spot him roll on their spot checks, he can still attempt to hide as long as he meets the given criteria.

He thinks he is hidden, whither he is or not is another thing all together.

[Hyfigh]

I'm confused as well. Sneak Attacking from hiding shouldn't be as much of an "issue" as sneak attacking from flanking... What's the problem here?

[Tokiko Mima]

Hide in Plain Sight (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.



Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.


Invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible)
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.)



Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack)
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

....

The deal is that unless your foe has the Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight) feat or some other way to see through being hidden (tremorsense, blindsense/sight) then they lose their Dexterity bonus to AC to the Shadowdancer, and the Shadowdancer can therefore make Sneak Attacks if they have Sneak Attack dice (from Rogue, Assassin, etc.) The counter for this is a good Spot check, because once a Shadowdancer starts attacking they take a -20 penalty to their Hide skill.

It's worth noting that being hidden is not the same as being invisible, but the fact of the matter is that being successfully hidden means you cannot be seen, and invisiblity is identical in this regard.

[Hyfigh]

The deal is that unless your foe has the Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight) feat or some other way to see through being hidden (tremorsense, blindsense/sight) then they lose their Dexterity bonus to AC to the Shadowdancer, and the Shadowdancer can therefore make Sneak Attacks if they have Sneak Attack dice (from Rogue, Assassin, etc.) The counter for this is a good Spot check, because once a Rogue starts attacking they take a -20 penalty to their Hide skill.

I still don't see the issue. Unless this character is really optimized for hide checks, hiding is pretty tough even if the opponent has a low(er) spot check. Again, it's no more powerful than simply lining up with the fighter in the group to flank the opponent...

Maybe I'm biased because of how many things can be immune to backstab and/or can't be caught flat-footed, and how optimized I try to make my characters.

Edit: Or am I wrong in my assumption that this was a balance question? Was it just a rules question?

[Temp]

So I'm running a campaign and one of the PC's has hide in plain sight at lvl 6 from shadowdancer. I dont think that I quite understand how it works. According to the rules as I read them, it seems like he can make a hide check any time. And if he's hiding, he gets sneak attack? I really dont know how to make this work. Any help you forumites have would be more than welcome.
I still don't see the issue.I think the OP's just asking how the rule works.

[edit:]Simu-ninja-ed!

...By the fellow with the question none-the-less.

[Tokiko Mima]

I still don't see the issue. Unless this character is really optimized for hide checks, hiding is pretty tough even if the opponent has a low(er) spot check. Again, it's no more powerful than simply lining up with the fighter in the group to flank the opponent...

Maybe I'm biased because of how many things can be immune to backstab and/or can't be caught flat-footed, and how optimized I try to make my characters.

Edit: Or am I wrong in my assumption that this was a balance question? Was it just a rules question?

:smallsmile:

I wasn't trying to contradict you. I was just attempting to lay out how a Shadowdancer gets to Sneak attack, per the OP's question.

Hide in Plain Sight >> Cannot be seen >> Foe Loses Dex bonus >> Can Sneak Attacked

[Azerian Kelimon]

Add "Take Precision Strike Variant from Dungeonscape and watch fireworks". With it, rogues become half useful in high levels.

[Nebo_]

Remember, he still needs something to hide behind. HiPS just lets you hide while being observed, it doesn't nullify any of the other pre requisites of hiding.

[UserClone]

The character should be taking a HEFTY penalty to his hide check if he isn't actually going to attempt to hide BEHIND something. He doesn't just meld into shadows, it's just that the Hide skill doesn't normally even allow you to attempt a check if you are currently being observed by those from whom you are hiding. The only thing HiPS does is allow you to attempt the check. Doesn't mean you'll actually MAKE it.:smallamused: Hope this helps.

[Jack Zander]

The character should be taking a HEFTY penalty to his hide check if he isn't actually going to attempt to hide BEHIND something. He doesn't just meld into shadows, it's just that the Hide skill doesn't normally even allow you to attempt a check if you are currently being observed by those from whom you are hiding. The only thing HiPS does is allow you to attempt the check. Doesn't mean you'll actually MAKE it.:smallamused: Hope this helps.

Where does it say that?

And can you hide in you're opponent's shadows?

[Nowhere Girl]

Where does it say that?

Nowhere. FlWiPig is incorrect. If you applied an arbitrary hefty penalty for using HIPS as it's meant to be used, it would be just that: arbitrary, and a houserule. It's not meant to work that way, any more than fighters are meant to take half of the damage they inflict anytime they use Power Attack or wizards are meant to die in fiery explosions anytime they dare to cast a spell. Those would all be houserules, and like FlWiPig's, very bad ones.

As an aside, blindsense lets you pinpoint a hiding person, but you can't actually see them without beating their Hide check still, so you still can be hit with sneak attacks. Only blindsight completely negates their hiding (unless they take the Darkstalker feat, of course).

Also, while there's no special penalty for hiding without anything to hide behind using HIPS, there is a penalty for attacking while trying to hide. It's -20. So it takes a lot of skill bonuses to pull this stuff off, and remember that some creatures also have great Spot and Listen checks even without outright cheats like tremorsense or blindsight.


And can you hide in you're opponent's shadows?

Per the rules as written, yes. You can hide in any shadow other than your own. Now, I challenge you: look around you and try to find a spot you can stand where you won't have a shadow within 10 feet of you.

You can't do it, at least not normally.

If you're standing on a sidewalk in broad daylight, the gaps in the sidewalk cast shadows. The blades of grass cast shadows. The ants crawling around cast shadows. And on and on and on ...

Yes, it's a very powerful ability. It's supposed to be. No, it's not logical. That's why it is a supernatural ability. "But, omg, it's too powerful!" you cry. O rly? Stop and think about what a mere druid 20 can do (nevermind a wizard), then tell me that.

There are also a few places where you won't find shadows within 10 feet of you at all. They include:

- High up in the sky (at high levels, this can certainly come up).

- An empty, featurless, perfectly flat expanse that's for whatever reason devoid of life, in broad daylight.

- Possibily certain planes (the Plane of Light, perhaps?).

- Right in the middle of the area of a spell that creates a globe of magical light (although this light will then cast other shadows at the outer edges that the person could move toward, then attempt to hide again, unless the light completely fills the entire room).

Those circumstances aside, it's basically "hide anywhere." That's what it's supposed to be. It's powerful, yes, but for the love of God, don't get too excited about it. A high-level wizard blows his nose with spells that can do more in total. Don't abuse the sneaks for being good at the one thing they can actually do.

That's how I feel about it, anyway.

[SadisticFishing]

"Hide in Plain Sight". You can hide, in plain sight. It's like you're hiding behind something, except that you're not. No penalties for not being behind something.

Though I can see house-ruling that the shadow needs to be... big enough to "fit" in.

[Nowhere Girl]

I can even see saying HIPS isn't allowed in your game, especially in a very "realistic" setting.

But allowing the ability and then directly and heavily penalizing its only purpose is a little silly.

[Foolosophy]

And if your game is realistic enough not to allow for shadowdancers (hide in plain sight, jump from shadow to shadow, summons shadows) other classes are in a lot more trouble ("what? teleporting from shadow to shadow is not realistic enough but the wizard gets to teleport everywhere?" or "You mean this guy can actually perform magic but being able to hide in plain sight is stretching it?")

[Blanks]

If you're standing on a sidewalk in broad daylight, the gaps in the sidewalk cast shadows. The blades of grass cast shadows. The ants crawling around cast shadows. And on and on and on ...
I would definitely rule that the shadow would have to be big enough to "fit in", otherwise he would just bring his "hide shoe", toss it on the ground and hide in its shadow. Technically the shoe isn't him so he can hide in it, but it clearly breaks the intentions of the class :)

EDIT:
zpeling and understandabilialityness

[Curmudgeon]

What's the actual confusion? He can hide in shadows and if he successfully hides he can sneak attack, just like if he had hidden more conventionally. Is it causing a problem in the game?

"Hide in Plain Sight". You can hide, in plain sight. It's like you're hiding behind something, except that you're not. No penalties for not being behind something.

Though I can see house-ruling that the shadow needs to be... big enough to "fit" in. You're both confused.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. A Shadowdancer doesn't need to hide in shadows. Shadows -- of any size, even that of a blade of grass -- just need to exist within 10' of the Shadowdancer. That's why their HiPS is Supernatural, as opposed to the Ranger's Extraordinary HiPS. There's magic involved in overriding the usual requirements to Hide, and that's why the Ranger's HiPS will still work in an Antimagic Field but the Shadowdancer's won't. A magical ability is more powerful, but also has magical limitations.

[Blanks]

You're both confused
Let me speak for both of us:
No were not :smallsmile:

My point was about game balance and about what i would deem "in the right fantasy mood", not about the RAW. The poster i quoted is 100% correct regarding the RAW as i see it, but i would rule (read: house rule) that the shadow has to be big enough to cover your person. Otherwise, people just carry a random object and then toss it - presto instant shadow (my example was a shoe :) )

EDIT:
whoops he wasnt quoting me :smallredface:
Well i said the same as the quoted posters so i'll defend them :smalltongue:

[daggaz]

Yeah, I have a player who will be hitting lvl 7 soon as well, and I'm thinking of requiring a certain size of shadow as well. shadows that are at least small in size, should do it. No blades of grass etc, even tho there is magic involved.

Why? Mostly because I want there to be some fluff involved, and something that causes the player to actively interact with the scenery. If he can hide in any miniscule shadow (as per RAW, tho i would stress its by lack of definition, rather than by active definition), then it is just an automatic ability to attempt a hide check, pretty much everywhere.

He wouldnt need to ask, he wouldnt need to look around, he wouldn't even need to think. And personally I think it would be stupid. So he needs a table or a curtain that casts a shadow, or a tree, or another person nearby, or even just a decent sized rock. And to be fair, I am a good DM and there will be PLENTY of such objects around in most cases. No "you are in a forest, and theres an ogre... unfortunately there are NO shadows near you" BS. Forests are full of shadows. (In such a place, yeah, he wouldnt need to ask really)

In my head, Im seeing it much like the scene in Peter Pan where he is trying to catch his shadow. The shadow only jumps into other shadows which are about as big or bigger than itself. If he can reasonably "hide" a large part of his own shadow in another shadow, then he can hide in it himself. Didn't anybody play that game as a kid on the playground?

And I think this is still balanced and he still gets a lot out of the ability. Say he is standing next to the castle wall, and there is absolutely NOTHING to hide behind, and he's fighting some invaders. Want to hide? Normally, not a chance. But now, he backs up against the wall, stepping into the narrow shadow cast by the noon-day sun, and 'presto!', disappears from sight! (invaders failed their spot checks) See? Still magic, still hidey. Next comes stabbity stab stab stab.

[its_all_ogre]

something i only recently noticed is that an assassin gets this ability at level 8 which is very handy...
but otherwise i use it like daggaz states. one day i will play a character with the ability and will have so much fun!

[Kaelik]

If he can hide in any miniscule shadow (as per RAW, tho i would stress its by lack of definition, rather than by active definition), then it is just an automatic ability to attempt a hide check, pretty much everywhere.

That's exactly what it is and exactly what it's supposed to be. Hide in Plane Sight allows one to hide somewhere without hiding behind or in anything.

[Taffimai]

The idea behind hiding in shadows is that you stand in shadowy illumination (such as a dark corner) and keep perfectly still, so people have a hard time spotting you, similar as if you were, say, hiding behind a bush. It doesn't make you go 'poof', you just blend so well in the shadow that you're more difficult to notice.

Normally, you can't hide in any way if someone is watching you. Hide in plain sight allows it anyway. This seems very powerful for hiding in shadows, until you read page 165 of the player's handbook:


[...] A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

Since half of everything you meet in the average D&D world has darkvision, it takes away alot of the 'awesome' from the Shadowdancer prestige class. IMO, you're better off as a straight rogue and flanking.

[Kaelik]

The idea behind hiding in shadows is that you stand in shadowy illumination (such as a dark corner) and keep perfectly still, so people have a hard time spotting you, similar as if you were, say, hiding behind a bush. It doesn't make you go 'poof', you just blend so well in the shadow that you're more difficult to notice.

Normally, you can't hide in any way if someone is watching you. Hide in plain sight allows it anyway. This seems very powerful for hiding in shadows, until you read page 165 of the player's handbook:

Since half of everything you meet in the average D&D world has darkvision, it takes away alot of the 'awesome' from the Shadowdancer prestige class. IMO, you're better off as a straight rogue and flanking.

That's what "Hiding in Shadows" would be if there was any such thing in 3.5. There isn't though. There is "Hide in Plain Sight" which allows someone to make a hide check at all times, completely ignoring any limitations such as needing cover, ability to see in the dark, whatever.

You missed the cardinal rule of D&D. Specific ability text overrides restrictions set out in general rules. Hide in Plain Sight was created specifically so that you could hide withing 60ft of something with Darkvision.

[Taffimai]

All it allows is the use of the Hide skill in the exceptional condition of being observed, so it overrides the rule 'you can't hide when someone's watching'. The text of Hide in Plain Sight says nothing at all about darkvision, so that remains unchanged.

Keep in mind that a normal character without HiPS can also hide using shadowy illumination (what I was referring to when I said 'hide in shadows'), just not while observed.

Edit: this is because you are considered to have 'concealment' when you are in an area with shadowy illumination. PH page 164. The section on the Hide skill is misleading for not mentioning that.

[Kaelik]

All it allows is the use of the Hide skill in the exceptional condition of being observed, so it overrides the rule 'you can't hide when someone's watching'. The text of Hide in Plain Sight says nothing at all about darkvision, so that remains unchanged.

Keep in mind that a normal character without HiPS can also hide using shadowy illumination (what I was referring to when I said 'hide in shadows'), just not while observed.

Edit: this is because you are considered to have 'concealment' when you are in an area with shadowy illumination. PH page 164. The section on the Hide skill is misleading for not mentioning that.

You are confused. You can hide in Shadowy illumination even when being observed. HIPS lets you hide in bright light, like broad daylight, even while someone is starring right at you.

The reason that it says that about Darkvision is because they can see you within 60ft as if you were under bright light. But HIPS negates the need to have concealment, so HIPS grants the ability to hide at all times in all locations against everyone.

[mostlyharmful]

This is what makes hiding in general, and HipS in particular, so supperior to straight invisibility at high levels. With it you really can stand ten feet away from someone in broad daylght with them looking at you and then just not be there any more.... which is REALLY annoying to try to fight. Think what granny Wheatherwax does when she hides i you've read the discworld series. Just fades into the foreground and your mind jumps past her.:smallannoyed:

[Nowhere Girl]

Bear in mind that anyone can use the "create a distraction" Bluff check and then hide if there's actual adequate concealment around. As long as you can hide at all, you can hide in shadows (concealment) or behind something (cover).

Ranger/scout Hide in Plain Sight ups the benefit a little in natural terrain. Now you can hide even under direct obervation. But notice: the text "without anything to actually hide behind" that you can find for shadowdancers and assassins is conspicuously missing. Also, the HIPS ability in this case is an extraordinary ability. It is the extraordinary ability to hide even while under direct observation, as long as you're in natural terrain and there's something to hide behind (such as a tree [cover] or shadows [concealment]).

Shadowdancer/assassin HIPS is worded differently. The requirement is now that you must be within 10 feet of some kind of shadow (no size limit is given), and added to the usual text is the special benefit that you can hide even "without anything to actually hide behind" (such as the cover of a solid object or the concealment of a patch of shadows your size or greater). In exchange for that greater power, the ability becomes, rather than an extraordinary ability, a supernatural one. Like a spell. (Only of course not nearly as powerful as many of the spells wizards and clerics will be casually tossing around on a regular basis.)

If the idea of this ability just sends chills down your spine, then here's what you do:

- Change shadowdancer/assassin HIPS to an extraordinary ability. Remove the "without anything to actually hide behind" bit and just allow them to hide under direct observation.

- Remove wizards, clerics, druids and all ToB classes from the game entirely. If shadowdancer/assassin HIPS as written is too powerful for your campaign, you're definitely not ready for what those classes will do to it, even if you take away their most broken spells and abilities. You might allow classes like, say, healers and warmages, though.

[MCerberus]

Invisibility is just a bluff check away with HipS. All the cool kids have HipS, why don't you?

[Taffimai]

You are confused. You can hide in Shadowy illumination even when being observed. HIPS lets you hide in bright light, like broad daylight, even while someone is starring right at you.

The reason that it says that about Darkvision is because they can see you within 60ft as if you were under bright light. But HIPS negates the need to have concealment, so HIPS grants the ability to hide at all times in all locations against everyone.

The things emphasised (by me) are, as far as I'm concerned, your interpretation and I do not agree with it. To me, you cannot hide when observed in shadowy illumination (unless you have HiPS, of course).

To me, HiPS does not let you hide in bright light per se, just while observed. To me, the 'within 10 feet of a shadow' offers an explanation for this exception as well as creating a boundary for it, similar to 'while in any sort of natural terrain' for rangers (they get HiPS at 17th level, no need for being within 10 feet of a shadow there). The class is so in tune with their surroundings that they blend in perfectly.

For shadowdancers (and assassins), the concealment granted by a shadow extends 10 feet beyond the borders of that shadow. This still doesn't help them against creatures with darkvision, just like a ranger wouldn't get to hide in a natural environment from a creature whose vision couldn't be impaired by vegetation.

But I'll admit that this is my interpretation, so I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. That said, if you ever DM a PbP game here, I want to be a shadowdancer in it :smallsmile:

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You can hide in Shadowy illumination even when being observed.

No, not without a diversion. Less than total concealment allows you to hide, but not while being observed.
Less than total concealment does not block line of sight.


If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

[Kaelik]

But I'll admit that this is my interpretation, so I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. That said, if you ever DM a PbP game here, I want to be a shadowdancer in it :smallsmile:

And I would argue that your "interpretation" is based entirely on what you want the ability to be capable of, and not based on what the rules actually say it can do.

I am DMing a game that will start up soon, Planar Shift. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62310) Feel free to join, though due to some housrules applying to the hide/ms/spot/and listen skills, you wouldn't be able to qualify for Shadowdancer ever/until later.

However, if your character makes it into the game, I'd let you take it at the lowest level you would normally be able to qualify.

[Kaelik]

No, not without a diversion. Less than total concealment allows you to hide, but not while being observed.
Less than total concealment does not block line of sight.

I did not clarify, but there is a bluff action, not to mention running around a corner (though that second action is pretty clearly not what we are talking about.)

[Nowhere Girl]

And I would argue that your "interpretation" is based entirely on what you want the ability to be capable of, and not based on what the rules actually say it can do.

I am DMing a game that will start up soon, Planar Shift. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62310) Feel free to join, though due to some housrules applying to the hide/ms/spot/and listen skills, you wouldn't be able to qualify for Shadowdancer ever/until later.

However, if your character makes it into the game, I'd let you take it at the lowest level you would normally be able to qualify.

A game you're DMing? To hell with shadowdancers, I'd want to play a wizard. :smalltongue:

It is kind of funny how it's like pulling teeth to get people to let sneaks have the few things they're supposed to have, but for the most part, they'll just go "durrr okies" to the things primary spellcasters do.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

For shadowdancers (and assassins), the concealment granted by a shadow extends 10 feet beyond the borders of that shadow. This still doesn't help them against creatures with darkvision,

Yes it does. Darkvision foils hiding in shodowy illumination even when you were not observed, but it does not foil the supernatural shadow higing capabilities of the Shadowdancer/Assasin.


Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I did not clarify, but there is a bluff action, not to mention running around a corner (though that second action is pretty clearly not what we are talking about.)

You statement is potentially misleading without a statement about needing a diversion.
You are fooling someone to look away while hiding, since hiding while being observed normally is not possible.

But I am glad that we agree.:smallsmile:

[TheDarkOne]

I'd just like to point out that rangers don't need extra text in their HiPS entery to hide in natural terrain even when they don't have cover or concealment. They get that ability at 13th level, it's called "Camouflage". When Rangers get HiPS they can suddenly disappear anywhere in natural terrain.

If a character could get the 17th level ranger ability without getting the 13th level ability, they'd be in the interesting situation of being able to suddenly disappear in the forest...but only if they were already in some of bushes, or part way behind a tree already.(ie only when they already had partial concealment or cover)

[mostlyharmful]

I'd just like to point out that rangers don't need extra text in their HiPS entery to hide in natural terrain even when they don't have cover or concealment. They get that ability at 13th level, it's called "Camouflage". When Rangers get HiPS they can suddenly disappear anywhere in natural terrain.

If a character could get the 17th level ranger ability without getting the 13th level ability, they'd be in the interesting situation of being able to suddenly disappear in the forest...but only if they were already in some of bushes, or part way behind a tree already.(ie only when they already had partial concealment or cover)

It'd still be a cool ability. Make no sense but still. if you're under observation you can just "meld" with the scenery? cool

[Felius]

It'd still be a cool ability. Make no sense but still. if you're under observation you can just "meld" with the scenery? cool

Sense? You're at the level where nothing makes sense. If we start asking for sense, they wouldn't be able to kill 1HD monsters and npcs by the thousand, couldn't stop time with a spell, etc. So considering the rest of the things they can do, I can accept then being able to hide at plain sight.

[Nowhere Girl]

I'd just like to point out that rangers don't need extra text in their HiPS entery to hide in natural terrain even when they don't have cover or concealment. They get that ability at 13th level, it's called "Camouflage". When Rangers get HiPS they can suddenly disappear anywhere in natural terrain.

If a character could get the 17th level ranger ability without getting the 13th level ability, they'd be in the interesting situation of being able to suddenly disappear in the forest...but only if they were already in some of bushes, or part way behind a tree already.(ie only when they already had partial concealment or cover)

Valid point. :smallsmile:

[TimeWizard]

Add "Take Precision Strike Variant from Dungeonscape and watch fireworks". With it, rogues become half useful in high levels.

Or Deadly Precision in the XPH.

[Nowhere Girl]

Or Precise Strike (Dragon Companion) plus Crippling Strike. Trade in all of your sneak attack bonuses for bonuses to hit, giving you a higher chance to hit than the fighter, and just use the Strength ability damage to kill your target. :smallbiggrin: