Who would win a Monk or Cleric? "Contest"

[Galithar]

Please keep discussion of theories to the other thread.

There is currently a thread discussing who would win in a PvP 1v1 duel between a Cleric and Monk at level 20. That thread is about theory. I'd like to make a little contest about the practicality of it.

Purpose: See how clerics and Monks fare against each other at level 20 in straight 1v1 combat.

Entry: Please reserve this thread for entries and clarification questions. Use the other thread to discuss theories when possible.
Create 1 (or more) level 20 builds. Straight class monk or cleric only. Describe your desired strategies and potential counters to expected moves.

Conditions: All characters are to be built with point-buy/standard array. The set up for the fight will be described later. Contestants do NOT have prior knowledge of the fight, and therefore its conditions should not be taken into account. The build SHOULD be designed for 1v1 combat though. Set up time is only possible if the spell/ability has a duration of permanent.

After some entries are in I will choose some pairs and actually roll out full combats, and I encourage others to do the same. So please post full character builds. That means spell choices, sub classes, feats, ASI, stats. Magic items are not allowed, unless created by a class feature (Forge domain +1 weapon or armor for example)

Cleric Divine Intervention is not allowed in Cleric tactics. I treat it as an "I win" button and assume if available the Cleric always wins. (Please keep disputes of this to the other thread)

[J.C.]

Please keep discussion of theories to the other thread.

There is currently a thread discussing who would win in a PvP 1v1 duel between a Cleric and Monk at level 20. That thread is about theory. I'd like to make a little contest about the practicality of it.

Purpose: See how clerics and Monks fare against each other at level 20 in straight 1v1 combat.

Entry: Please reserve this thread for entries and clarification questions. Use the other thread to discuss theories when possible.
Create 1 (or more) level 20 builds. Straight class monk or cleric only. Describe your desired strategies and potential counters to expected moves.

Conditions: All characters are to be built with point-buy/standard array. The set up for the fight will be described later. Contestants do NOT have prior knowledge of the fight, and therefore its conditions should not be taken into account. The build SHOULD be designed for 1v1 combat though. Set up time is only possible if the spell/ability has a duration of permanent.

After some entries are in I will choose some pairs and actually roll out full combats, and I encourage others to do the same. So please post full character builds. That means spell choices, sub classes, feats, ASI, stats. Magic items are not allowed, unless created by a class feature (Forge domain +1 weapon or armor for example)

Cleric Divine Intervention is not allowed in Cleric tactics. I treat it as an "I win" button and assume if available the Cleric always wins. (Please keep disputes of this to the other thread)

{Scrubbed}

[Eldariel]

Just to be clear, what's your stance on spells that produce minions? Does 1v1 mean that Cleric cannot use Planar Binding/Conjure Celestial, Wish for Simulacrum, Wish for Find Greater Steed, Animate Dead or other things that would produce either permanent bound allies, or copies of oneself or whatever? What about summoning during combat, e.g. Summon Celestial? This obviously hugely plays into Cleric's options since many of the best Wizard spells for an Arcana Cleric to snag as well as most powerful abilities of the Cleric class are minionmancy effects.

[mistajames]

Just to be clear, what's your stance on spells that produce minions? Does 1v1 mean that Cleric cannot use Planar Binding/Conjure Celestial, Wish for Simulacrum, Wish for Find Greater Steed, Animate Dead or other things that would produce either permanent bound allies, or copies of oneself or whatever? What about summoning during combat, e.g. Summon Celestial? This obviously hugely plays into Cleric's options since many of the best Wizard spells for an Arcana Cleric to snag as well as most powerful abilities of the Cleric class are minionmancy effects.

This. Arguably, the Cleric's best damage options all relate to summoning (i.e. - Simulacrum/Summon Celestial). Winning is going to be a lot tougher for the Cleric if they can't summon.

Also, pre-buffs (answered) and things like Etherealness or Plane Shift (to buff/summon) should be addressed. If the Cleric GTFOs in order to summon stuff, is that a loss?

EDIT: Maybe Arcana Cleric and/or Wish should be scrubbed entirely, because its interactions are too hard to deal with?

[Galithar]

Just to be clear, what's your stance on spells that produce minions? Does 1v1 mean that Cleric cannot use Planar Binding/Conjure Celestial, Wish for Simulacrum, Wish for Find Greater Steed, Animate Dead or other things that would produce either permanent bound allies, or copies of oneself or whatever? What about summoning during combat, e.g. Summon Celestial? This obviously hugely plays into Cleric's options since many of the best Wizard spells for an Arcana Cleric to snag as well as most powerful abilities of the Cleric class are minionmancy effects.

Any class abilities are available. If you can create it with a class ability then you can have it in your build. Just specify by what means you are creating it and when.


This. Arguably, the Cleric's best damage options all relate to summoning (i.e. - Simulacrum/Summon Celestial). Winning is going to be a lot tougher for the Cleric if they can't summon.

Also, pre-buffs (answered) and things like Etherealness or Plane Shift (to buff/summon) should be addressed. If the Cleric GTFOs in order to summon stuff, is that a loss?

EDIT: Maybe Arcana Cleric and/or Wish should be scrubbed entirely, because its interactions are too hard to deal with?

I'm okay with allowing Wish, but when I do my own simulations with submitted builds I will only use it to replicate a spell as specified in the build strategy or another spell if I fell the strategy has been precountered by the monk. If a build requires a non spell replicating use I will act as DM and determine whether I would allow it. If I don't I'll replace it with the most efficient spell replication I can think of in my tests.

Anyone else that chooses to also play out a scenario can make their own decisions on how to handle that, just how I'll do mine.

Edit: The rules on planeshifting or retreating will be covered under the situation of combat. They may or may not be viable, have additional strategies available if tucking tail and running is made unavailable. I will say that there will be no "I run away and ambush the opponent in their sleep later"

[mistajames]

Any class abilities are available. If you can create it with a class ability then you can have it in your build. Just specify by what means you are creating it and when.

I'm okay with allowing Wish, but when I do my own simulations with submitted builds I will only use it to replicate a spell as specified in the build strategy or another spell if I fell the strategy has been precountered by the monk. If a build requires a non spell replicating use I will act as DM and determine whether I would allow it. If I don't I'll replace it with the most efficient spell replication I can think of in my tests.

Anyone else that chooses to also play out a scenario can make their own decisions on how to handle that, just how I'll do mine.

Edit: The rules on planeshifting or retreating will be covered under the situation of combat. They may or may not be viable, have additional strategies available if tucking tail and running is made unavailable. I will say that there will be no "I run away and ambush the opponent in their sleep later"

Ghostwise Halfling (Izzet Background) Arcana Cleric. Stat Swap Dex to Wis.
Half-Plate and Shield with a spare half-plate and shield (or just a spare shield), both with emblazened holy symbols. Also, spare holy symbols. 2 Maces (in case they want to melee for whatever reason).
8/14/16/8/20/8.
Feats: Lucky, Resilient (Con), Metamagic Adept (Subtle, Twin), Telekinetic (+1 Wis)
Buffs: Contingency (Cast Resilient Sphere on self when the Monk attempts to strike within 5 ft a melee attack against the Cleric), Death Ward.

Spells (4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1), plus normal Arcana domain spells:
0: Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Sacred Flame, Light, Mending
1: Sanctuary, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Shield of Faith
2: Spiritual Weapon, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration
3: Spirit Guardians, Revivify, Daylight,
4: Resilient Sphere, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Banishment, Locate Creature
5: Summon Celestial, Animate Objects,
6:Planar Ally, Heroes' Feast, Heal, Contingency*
7: Plane Shift, Etherealness, Forcecage*
8: Holy Aura, Maddening Darkness*
9: Wish*, Mass Heal

Strategy:

If Contingency is not allowed... well, let's just hope that we get a turn before getting stunlocked.

If Monk wins initiative and attacks within 5ft, Contingency goes off. Cast Wish: Simulacrum on self and equip the Simulacrum. Buff both with Freedom of Movement, Mage Hand, Aid at L6 (from Simulacrum). If the Cleric wins initiative, cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to buff up.

Burn Lucky on Simmy/Self to avoid failed Stunning Strike saves. If either the Simulacrum or the self get into a rough spot, Etherealness to regroup, re-buff and heal as needed.

If Cleric or Simulacrum is grappled while the other is up, use Bonus Action telekinesis to shove the other 5 feet (voluntarily fail per the feat) to break the grapple.

Simultaneous Forcecage + Maddening Darkness (between Simulacrum and Self) for the win. Cast Daylight on the area outside the Forcecage on Shadow Monks to avoid melee (provided they can actually figure out a way to see outside of the Maddening Darkness). If somehow this doesn't work, self and Simmy Summon Celestials at 6 or 8 (Defender) and wail on the monk, healing as needed.

If monk is going ranged (say, Kensei), Etherealness (Self and Simulacrum) to get close and Forcecage/Maddening Darkness for the kill. Hold action to release Etherealness until after Monk finishes moving. If that doesn't work somehow, Summon Celestials (Avenger) and shoot them to death from out of the Forcecage, healing as needed.

Subtle Spell Etherealness to get out of Silence.

[Galithar]

Ghostwise Halfling (Izzet Background) Arcana Cleric. Stat Swap Dex to Wis.
Half-Plate and Shield with a spare half-plate and shield (or just a spare shield), both with emblazened holy symbols. Also, spare holy symbols. 2 Maces (in case they want to melee for whatever reason).
8/14/16/8/20/8.
Feats: Lucky, Resilient (Con), Metamagic Adept (Subtle, Twin), Telekinetic (+1 Wis)
Buffs: Contingency (Cast Resilient Sphere on self when the Monk attempts to strike within 5 ft), Death Ward.

Spells (4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1), plus normal Arcana domain spells:
0: Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Guidance, Sacred Flame, Light, Mending
1: Sanctuary, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Shield of Faith
2: Spiritual Weapon, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration
3: Spirit Guardians, Revivify, Daylight,
4: Resilient Sphere, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Banishment, Locate Creature
5: Summon Celestial, Animate Objects,
6:Planar Ally, Heroes' Feast, Heal, Contingency*
7: Plane Shift, Etherealness, Forcecage*
8: Holy Aura, Maddening Darkness*
9: Wish*, Mass Heal

Strategy:

If Contingency is not allowed... well, let's just hope that we get a turn before getting stunlocked.

If Monk wins initiative and attacks within 5ft, Contingency goes off. Cast Wish: Simulacrum on self and equip the Simulacrum. Buff both with Freedom of Movement, Mage Hand, Aid at L6 (from Simulacrum). If the Cleric wins initiative, cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to buff up.

Burn Lucky on Simmy/Self to avoid failed Stunning Strike saves. If either the Simulacrum or the self get into a rough spot, Etherealness to regroup, re-buff and heal as needed.

If Cleric or Simulacrum is grappled while the other is up, use Bonus Action telekinesis to shove the other 5 feet (voluntarily fail per the feat) to break the grapple.

Simultaneous Forcecage + Maddening Darkness (between Simulacrum and Self) for the win. Cast Daylight on the area outside the Forcecage on Shadow Monks to avoid melee (provided they can actually figure out a way to see outside of the Maddening Darkness). If somehow this doesn't work, self and Simmy Summon Celestials at 6 or 8 (Defender) and wail on the monk, healing as needed.

If monk is going ranged (say, Kensei), Etherealness (Self and Simulacrum) to get close and Forcecage/Maddening Darkness for the kill. Hold action to release Etherealness until after Monk finishes moving. If that doesn't work somehow, Summon Celestials (Avenger) and shoot them to death from out of the Forcecage, healing as needed.

Subtle Spell Etherealness to get out of Silence.

Yes, I saw you post this build in the other thread. Very potent indeed. I think this one wins most if not all actually rolled out scenarios. We'll see how many other builds I get but I'm definitely going to roll this one out against at least one Monk opponent. (If I get any Monks at all or I have to do that myself)

I am likely going to do 2 simulations time permitting. 1 with rolled iniative and 1 where I declare whoever lost the roll last time wins this time.

[MaxWilson]

Any class abilities are available. If you can create it with a class ability then you can have it in your build. Just specify by what means you are creating it and when.

Does "you can have it in your build" mean "you can have it in the contest"? There's really nothing interesting to say about Cleric + a hundred Couatls and summoned celestials vs. a single monk.

[x3n0n]

Buffs: Contingency (Cast Resilient Sphere on self when the Monk attempts to strike within 5 ft), Death Ward.

Somewhat unlikely loophole: melee attacks with reach (Astral Self, Whip Kensei, Bugbear).

Easily fixed by wording, I think: when Monk attempts a melee attack targeting the Cleric.

How meta should this be? Death Ward is a normal prebuff, near-death/half-HP Contingency (Resilient Sphere) is not atypical (and still very effective here). "First attempted melee attack" Contingency seems atypical.

[mistajames]

Somewhat unlikely loophole: melee attacks with reach (Astral Self, Whip Kensei, Bugbear).

Easily fixed by wording, I think: when Monk attempts a melee attack targeting the Cleric.

How meta should this be? Death Ward is a normal prebuff, near-death/half-HP Contingency (Resilient Sphere) is not atypical (and still very effective here). "First attempted melee attack" Contingency seems atypical.

Not so bad when you have Contingency as a domain spell. Recasting it ain't no big deal. It's always prepared.

[x3n0n]

Not so bad when you have Contingency as a domain spell. Recasting it ain't no big deal. It's always prepared.

I'm just trying to imagine the circumstances. If every-ninth-day Contingency is your standard operating procedure, it seems unlikely that your most recent one is "if any (Monk? Creature?) attempts a melee attack targeting me, Resilient Sphere". If you have 10 minutes to prebuff and change it, then sure... But then why not Wishulacrum instead?

[MaxWilson]

I'm just trying to imagine the circumstances. If every-ninth-day Contingency is your standard operating procedure, it seems unlikely that your most recent one is "if any (Monk? Creature?) attempts a melee attack targeting me, Resilient Sphere". If you have 10 minutes to prebuff and change it, then sure... But then why not Wishulacrum instead?

You can put a trigger on it to prevent waste.

"If any creature attempts a melee attack targeting me less than 60 seconds after the most recent time I said the words 'Shields up buckaroo'."

[x3n0n]

You can put a trigger on it to prevent waste.

"If any creature attempts a melee attack targeting me less than 60 seconds after the most recent time I said the words 'Shields up buckaroo'."

1. Nice trick that I had forgotten. :)

2. My point wasn't so much the waste as the (unfounded?) confidence that protection against melee attack was a likely choice for one's "everyday" Contingency, vs something like the in-game equivalent of "at half of my HP". (However, I see now that it arguably isn't guaranteed to work: if you're already stunned and thus incapacitated, can you establish concentration on Resilient Sphere? Works fine for silence/grapple lock, however.)

[mistajames]

I'm just trying to imagine the circumstances. If every-ninth-day Contingency is your standard operating procedure, it seems unlikely that your most recent one is "if any (Monk? Creature?) attempts a melee attack targeting me, Resilient Sphere". If you have 10 minutes to prebuff and change it, then sure... But then why not Wishulacrum instead?

I mean, you certainly would if you were playing normally. When I played a caster (Wizard) at these levels, I had tons of persistent magical effects. The rules say no summons though, so gotta respect the letter/spirit of the rules.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, you certainly would if you were playing normally. When I played a caster (Wizard) at these levels, I had tons of persistent magical effects. The rules say no summons though, so gotta respect the letter/spirit of the rules.

Where does the OP say no summons? I'm failing my reading comprehension check if it does.

[Unoriginal]

Ghostwise Halfling (Izzet Background) Arcana Cleric. Stat Swap Dex to Wis.
Half-Plate and Shield with a spare half-plate and shield (or just a spare shield), both with emblazened holy symbols. Also, spare holy symbols. 2 Maces (in case they want to melee for whatever reason).
8/14/16/8/20/8.

Hold on, your PC is wearing half-plate and shield and uses maces with 8 in STR?

[mistajames]

Hold on, your PC is wearing half-plate and shield and uses maces with 8 in STR?

Yes. For the lulz.

Realistically, this guy's weapon is completely irrelevant.

[someguy]

How do you learn resilient sphere?

[mistajames]

How do you learn resilient sphere?

Izzet background.