Melee Cleric help needed

[swarls]

My party consists of only 2 ppl, me and a rogue who never played the game before.
So i thought i'd go cleric, for tanking and healing. But i also like to hit hard, so i went for a combat centric build.
My DM does not allow the standard DMM cheese, so that's out of the picture.

I'm a cleric 5 of Tempus with Strength and War Domain

My stats are:
Str: 16 (+2 from item, for 18 in total)
Dex: 10
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 10

The feats i chose so far:
Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Cleave
Weapon Focus Battleaxe (from War Domain)

I'm planning on going Ordained Champion at lvl 8 (want to rush to Divine Power as soon as possible) and for the level 9 feat i'd go for holy warrior.

Now to the questions:

What feat would you recommend me to go at level 6?
Was thinking about getting crafting wondrous items or lightning reflexes. But I'm not too happy with either.
Any suggestions?

Do you guys think going Ordained Champion is worth it?
The smite ability is kinda gimped by the fact that I have low CHA, so only very limited uses and no bonus to the attack rolls.
Note: My DM will wave the no spontaneous healing downside.

If you think Ordained Champion is worth it, should i really wait for level 8 to get it so i can get Divine Power faster or live with waiting 1 more level to get it?

[bean illus]

I'm a cleric 5 of Tempus with Strength and War Domain

My stats are:
Str: 16 (+2 from item, for 18 in total)
Dex: 10
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 10

The feats i chose so far:
Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Cleave
Weapon Focus Battleaxe (from War Domain)

I'm planning on going Ordained Champion at lvl 8 (want to rush to Divine Power as soon as possible) and for the level 9 feat i'd go for holy warrior.

Now to the questions:

What feat would you recommend me to go at level 6?
Was thinking about getting crafting wondrous items or lightning reflexes. But I'm not too happy with either.
Any suggestions?

Do you guys think going Ordained Champion is worth it?
The smite ability is kinda gimped by the fact that I have low CHA, so only very limited uses and no bonus to the attack rolls.
Note: My DM will wave the no spontaneous healing downside.

If you think Ordained Champion is worth it, should i really wait for level 8 to get it so i can get Divine Power faster or live with waiting 1 more level to get it?

I use Ordained Champion often. But, why do you want it?

It works better if you can pick up an extra domain or two before entry.

Don't forget, you can find a way to buff your Cha.

[RNightstalker]

I would look into the devotion feats in Complete Champion. They've got some nice buffs that can be fueled with turning attempts.

Animal Devotion can give a sacred bonus to ST. Knowledge Devotion grants an insight bonus to attack rolls. Law Devotion gives a sacred bonus to attack rolls or AC, and Protection Devotion gives a sacred bonus to AC to those within 30 ft.

[Anthrowhale]

What are your allowed sources? And what's odd about your setting?

If it's PHB-only, then Extend Spell is a pretty good metamagic, followed perhaps by Quicken Spell at level 12.

If you need to make items rather than being able to buy them, then craft wondrous item can provide great utility.

More generally, there are perhaps significantly better builds for a combat cleric available if you want to revisit other decisions.

[swarls]

First of all, forgot to mention in the OP, the character as described is set, we already played some rounds and my DM won't allow me to relearn things.


I use Ordained Champion often. But, why do you want it?

Rapid Spontaneous Casting seems good, as i can't use DMM
Also Fist of Gods and Smite to increase damage


It works better if you can pick up an extra domain or two before entry.

What are some good ways to grab more domains?


What are your allowed sources? And what's odd about your setting?

Pretty much anything official, as long as it's not broken.


I would look into the devotion feats in Complete Champion. They've got some nice buffs that can be fueled with turning attempts.

As mentioned in the first sentence, the character described above is fixed, so only war and strength would be available.
And both those features don't seem too good imo, might be wrong tho?

But considering my question about when to get Ordained Champion if I even should get it:
Is it worth rushing for Divine Power or should i just suck up the one level and go Ordained Champion next level?

[RNightstalker]

What are some good ways to grab more domains?


As mentioned in the first sentence, the character described above is fixed, so only war and strength would be available.
And both those features don't seem too good imo, might be wrong tho?

But considering my question about when to get Ordained Champion if I even should get it:
Is it worth rushing for Divine Power or should i just suck up the one level and go Ordained Champion next level?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?175504-Ways-to-gain-cleric-domains-nevermind-my-memory-is-lousy
^^link to ways to get more domains.

Protection is in the portfolio of Tempus so that should be available, but I don't see strength or war domains being useful at all.

As far as going Ordained Champion, what is your character's alignment? The Ordained Champion requires lawful or neutral good or evil, and Tempus is chaotic. It also requires a deity that isn't Tempus. Is your DM ok with that?

With the composition of your party, I think getting access to Divine Power is worth getting first before going to OC.

[swarls]

^^link to ways to get more domains.

Thanks, will look into it


Protection is in the portfolio of Tempus so that should be available, but I don't see strength or war domains being useful at all.

War domain for Holy Warrior and to get easier access to OC
Strength for the power and I kinda liked the spells
Protection is the the Domain i want to get when I go OC and then get Protection devotion on level 12


As far as going Ordained Champion, what is your character's alignment? The Ordained Champion requires lawful or neutral good or evil, and Tempus is chaotic. It also requires a deity that isn't Tempus. Is your DM ok with that?

Yeah he's fine with that, as the theme fits Tempus nicely


With the composition of your party, I think getting access to Divine Power is worth getting first before going to OC.

Ok, thanks!

[Biggus]

Ordained Champion isn't a bad class, but given that you're going to be a bit of a swiss-army-knife Cleric (you mentioned tanking, healing and hitting) I think you might be better off taking a different prestige class which doesn't lose you caster levels.

For one thing, at most spell levels there are pretty awesome combat buffs on the Cleric list. Delaying access to Righteous Might and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) for example (both 5th level) will reduce your attack power enough that OC won't make you much better off. Assuming the Rogue is good at stealth, having them scout ahead and warn you if there's serious danger ahead so you've got time to buff you both will mean they're better-prepared for combat as well as you.

Also, you'd be delaying getting lots of other highly useful healing and protection spells: Revivify (SpC), Greater/Superior Resistance (SpC), Heal etc.

Rapid Spontaneous Casting is of somewhat limited use as it only applies to War domain spells, and around the time you'd get it you'll be able to afford a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), which while it's limited to low-level spells can be used for any you know. RSC will be further limited if you go for Holy Warrior (which I agree is a good idea) as you'll want to be leaving one of your high-level War spells uncast to retain the damage bonus.

As I said, OC isn't a bad idea, but I'm not sure it's the best choice in your situation.

[swarls]

Ordained Champion isn't a bad class, but given that you're going to be a bit of a swiss-army-knife Cleric (you mentioned tanking, healing and hitting) I think you might be better off taking a different prestige class which doesn't lose you caster levels.

Well with the healing i didn't mean investing in it in any way, just to keep the party healthy outside of combat.
My main focus is to get beefy and whack whatever is in front of me.


For one thing, at most spell levels there are pretty awesome combat buffs on the Cleric list. Delaying access to Righteous Might and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC) for example (both 5th level) will reduce your attack power enough that OC won't make you much better off. Assuming the Rogue is good at stealth, having them scout ahead and warn you if there's serious danger ahead so you've got time to buff you both will mean they're better-prepared for combat as well as you.

Normally she goes scout before fights, but there are always situations where you don't have that luxury, that's why i wanted a way to quickly buff up a bit without loosing rounds.


Rapid Spontaneous Casting is of somewhat limited use as it only applies to War domain spells, and around the time you'd get it you'll be able to afford a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), which while it's limited to low-level spells can be used for any you know. RSC will be further limited if you go for Holy Warrior (which I agree is a good idea) as you'll want to be leaving one of your high-level War spells uncast to retain the damage bonus.

Yeah, you're probably right there.

[Anthrowhale]

The border of cheesy for your table isn't clear to me. DMM is out and reforming the character is out.

Are the retraining rules in PHB2 allowed? What about hiring a Psion to cast Psychic Reformation? These are rules explicitly allowing some character modification.
Can you take a level of Prestige Paladin, and then take Battle Blessing? That provides access to the paladin spell list as a swift action.
Is Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness allowed? Particularly in combo with the Strength domain power that can provide a potent smite-alike.

I agree that delaying spell access to a cleric significantly disrupts their combat ability.
Level 4: Divine Power---full BAB, +6 to strength
Level 5: Surge of Fortune---autocrit on a two-handed maximum power attack
Level 6: Harm---hold the charge for the touch spell and then open up combat by tagging someone (possibly with surge of fortune for double damage).
Level 7: Holy Word. Use with level boosters like Bead of Karma + Ankh of Ascension to hit win.
Level 8: Spread of Contentment. The casting time is long, but the effect is outrageous---nothing can attack you, even if you attack them (!)
Level 9: End to Strife + Veil of Undeath. Everyone except you takes 20d6 nonlethal damage on every attack (regardless of whether it hits).

Level 4-6 spells are powerful combat buffs and level 7-9 spells are encounter enders.

[Biggus]

Well with the healing i didn't mean investing in it in any way, just to keep the party healthy outside of combat.
My main focus is to get beefy and whack whatever is in front of me.

Normally she goes scout before fights, but there are always situations where you don't have that luxury, that's why i wanted a way to quickly buff up a bit without loosing rounds.


Fair enough, I just thought as it's a two-person party you'd need to be able to do everything the Rogue can't. Are they investing in UMD? That would enable you to focus on combat more if so.

You can also use divinations like Omen of Peril (SpC) to give you an idea when danger is coming in situations where it's not practical for the Rogue to scout ahead for some reason.

[bean illus]

Rapid Spontaneous Casting seems good, as i can't use DMM ...
Also Fist of Gods and Smite to increase damage
...
What are some good ways to grab more domains?

Pretty much anything official, as long as it's not broken.

Is it worth rushing for Divine Power or should i just suck up the one level and go Ordained Champion next level?
It really barely matters if you have divine power, until you have rapid casting. With only two in the party, you won't be able to consistently cast it when you need it (and btw, it risk your scouts life to send him forward all the time).

These are the common ways to add domains, that happen early enough for your question:

Church Inquisitor CD, p. 26, EL 4
Reqs: Lawful good or lawful neutral, Kn arc 4, Kn rel 4 ranks , Spellcraft 4, Will +3, zone of truth (2nd) as a divine spell

Divine Oracle CD, p. 34, EL 6
Reqs: Kn rel 8, SF-KR, 2 divination spells.

Seeker of the Misty Isle CD, EL 6/8/13
Reqs: Elf or Half-Elf, Kn rel 4, Survival 8
2nd-level divine spells.

Divine Disciple FRCS, EL 8
Reqs: Diplo 5, Kn rel 8, 4th-level divine spells, patron deity.

Contemplative CD, EL 11
Reqs: KR 13 ranks, 1st-level divine spells.

THERE'S ALSO THIS, which doubles your turning pool.
Sacred Exorcist CD, EL 8
Reqs: Kn planes 10, Kn rel 7
Alignment: Any good.
Spells: Able to cast dismissal (4th) or dispel evil (5th).

Unfortunately, due to your race and alignment, most of those won't work for you. Perhaps though, your DM will waive alignment restriction. There are builds that grab all of this early, but they are lawful good, and Elven.

It looks like divine oracle, and divine disciple are your two best options? you would need to pick up skill focus religion from the Frog God's Fane for the Oracle, or else you won't gain a feat, but only trade them. Your DM can grant it as a tiny little side quest.

The strength domain power is ... not usually recommended. If your DM grants the side quest to the Frog Fane, you could pick up the oracle, and enter ordained champion at 7th. [/b]At that point, taking OC at 8th sounds rational. [/b]

But, OC truly ask for your charisma to be higher.

Which brings us to the circlet of rapid casting. For 15k, you cast rapid divine power 1/day. For the same price you can purchase a +4 Cha, which last all day.

*Now, if you pick up Divine Oracle, and trade the domain powers for 2 fighter feats, you may be able to afford Travel Devotion.
You can either take Extra Turning or Sacred Exorcist (or Chameleon 3?) to fuel it [b]and your Smite, and Holy Warrior (the class feature, which stacks with the feat of the same name).

One thing that i really like about ordained champion is, that there are [i]multiple ways to use swift, move, standard, and full actions, and they all encourage and support melee. It's one of the reasons you want travel devotion, because Channel Spell uses a move action.

[liquidformat]

So some general comments, lightning reflexes is not worth taking go with Divine Oracle or ring of evasion either is hands down better. Also you can always trade the ability of your domain for the associated domain feat, in the case of protection the domain ability sucks so I wouldn't waste a feat and just exchange the domain ability when you gain access to it. Similarly the Strength ability sucks so if your DM will let you I would trade it for Strength Devotion feat.

Even if there are a lot of undead in your setting without dmm it is worth looking at some of the other turn powered feats Sacred Vitality and Divine Shield in particular are pretty good choices.