Need Help with a gish

[adb82]

Hello everyone guys,
I'm starting a new campaign from LV 1, point buy stat, using only the base player's handbook (maybe I'll be allowed to use elven accuracy, but I'm still not sure about that). If I would be allowed to play with all manuals i would try an half elf bladesinger/arcane trickster focusing on shadow blade, counterspell and elven accuracy, getting war caster as feat and using booming blade and GFB. Now i would like to play something similar, but as I said I'm allowed only to use player's handbook and maybe elven accuracy. The First build come up to me is straight arcane trickster (hopefully with elven accuracy, otherwise human variant), assuming there is no way to get an extra attack somehow without delay too much counterspell and shadow blade, here my biggest problem is that anyway it gets shadow blade only at LV 7 and counterspell at LV 13 that looks a bit too late, especially for counterspell. That said, it can be useful mix it with some wizard LV for get these features earlier, losing some sneak attack dice and rogue progression, even if i can't use a bladesinger and so i have no second attack and other bladesinger things? In case which wizard subclass fit better the purpose and how many LV should i dip into it? 5 or 7 can be enough? At which point I'll deep wizard?

Thanks for the help.

[Unoriginal]

Hello everyone guys,
I'm starting a new campaign from LV 1, point buy stat, using only the base player's handbook (maybe I'll be allowed to use elven accuracy, but I'm still not sure about that). If I would be allowed to play with all manuals i would try an half elf bladesinger/arcane trickster focusing on shadow blade, counterspell and elven accuracy, getting war caster as feat and using booming blade and GFB. Now i would like to play something similar, but as I said I'm allowed only to use player's handbook and maybe elven accuracy. The First build come up to me is straight arcane trickster (hopefully with elven accuracy, otherwise human variant), assuming there is no way to get an extra attack somehow without delay too much counterspell and shadow blade, here my biggest problem is that anyway it gets shadow blade only at LV 7 and counterspell at LV 13 that looks a bit too late, especially for counterspell. That said, it can be useful mix it with some wizard LV for get these features earlier, losing some sneak attack dice and rogue progression, even if i can't use a bladesinger and so i have no second attack and other bladesinger things? In case which wizard subclass fit better the purpose and how many LV should i dip into it?

Thanks for the help.

A Fey Warlock with Pact of the Blade could be something approaching what you want.

[adb82]

A Fey Warlock with Pact of the Blade could be something approaching what you want.

Yes, right for the pact of blade warlock, maybe it's the faster way even it have really few spell slots, considering one is for shadow blade, the second one is for counter spell, and that mean till LV 11 he counter one spell for fight that is kinda few, but at least he recover slots with short rest.

Ps i can't play fey, inut isuppose It work well also with an half elf.

[kingcheesepants]

Yeah a straight warlock could work and so could a valor bard (swords isn't PHB). I would go bard as it gives you similar skills and expertise as a rouge and does not delay either extra attack or higher level spells in the way that a multiclass or 1/3 caster does. Also you won't ever get shadow blade no matter what class or subclass you pick as it isn't PHB.

[adb82]

Yeah a straight warlock could work and so could a valor bard (swords isn't PHB). I would go bard as it gives you similar skills and expertise as a rouge and does not delay either extra attack or higher level spells in the way that a multiclass or 1/3 caster does. Also you won't ever get shadow blade no matter what class or subclass you pick as it isn't PHB.

Im not sure, but i don't think bard have counterspell and shadow blade.

Ps searching for crits with elfen accuracy i suppose some sneak attack dice is needed, for that i thought multiclass into wizard with the arcane trickster.

[Lunatism]

Start with Abjuration wizard (1st-5th level) could be nice.

You will have a pretty-looking Arcane Ward to block damage (and thus help keeping concentration on Shadow Blade), it also recharges with use of Shield and Counterspell !!

[RSP]

I don’t think PoB gets you what you want: due to it being a spell, and a 1 min duration, SB cannot be a Pact Weapon, so it’ll never gain any benefits the PoB warlock gets (like Extra Attack).

Only using PHB, I’d probably go Paladin 1 to start, then Sorcerer 3 for SB, then Paladin up to 5 or 6 for EA. Then more Sorcerer.

That’s probably the best SB gish you’ll get with the limitations you have in class/subclass combos.

[adb82]

I don’t think PoB gets you what you want: due to it being a spell, and a 1 min duration, SB cannot be a Pact Weapon, so it’ll never gain any benefits the PoB warlock gets (like Extra Attack).

Only using PHB, I’d probably go Paladin 1 to start, then Sorcerer 3 for SB, then Paladin up to 5 or 6 for EA. Then more Sorcerer.

That’s probably the best SB gish you’ll get with the limitations you have in class/subclass combos.

Yes, that's absolutely true, i didn't think about the pact weapon, so it won't work on warlock POB.
About the sorcadin i know that build and its so far the most effective multiclass of this edition.

[meandean]

Ps i can't play fey, inut isuppose It work well also with an half elf.I believe what was meant here was the Archfey warlock patron.

You describe three things you want: Counterspell, Shadow Blade, Extra Attack. As mentioned, Shadow Blade isn't in the PHB to begin with, but let's assume for discussion purposes you're allowed to take it. Bladesinger can easily get all three... but they're also not in the PHB. Pact of the Blade Warlock can easily get (the equivalent of) all three... but as explained, their Extra Attack equivalent is limited to their pact weapon, and thus not the Shadow Blade.

Otherwise:

All three:


Valor Bards get Extra Attack at level 6, and can take Counterspell and Shadow Blade with Magical Secrets at level 10. Of course, since you're starting at level 1, it'll take a long time to get to 10, if it even happens at all.
Multiclass a martial class with a caster. Again, that means it'll take 10 levels: 5 in the martial for Extra Attack, 5 in the caster for Counterspell. (The poor man's version would be Fighter 2, allowing one "Extra Attack" per short rest.)
Eldritch Knights get Extra Attack at level 5, can take Shadow Blade at level 8, and Counterspell at level 13. Not your best option if you ever want to, y'know, actually play this build. (If you want to be good at Counterspelling, you also want a full caster, unless you have some way to get what should be a secondary stat very high.)

Counterspell & Shadow Blade, but not Extra Attack:


A Lore Bard can take both spells with Additional Magical Secrets at level 6.
An Arcane Trickster can have both spells at level 14. Yikes! (And again, you probably want a full caster.)
Any Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock. As stated, Abjuration Wizard would be the best at Counterspelling. War Wizard (not PHB) gets some (very little) benefit from successfully Counterspelling.

[adb82]

Start with Abjuration wizard (1st-5th level) could be nice.

You will have a pretty-looking Arcane Ward to block damage (and thus help keeping concentration on Shadow Blade), it also recharges with use of Shield and Counterspell !!

Yes that's look pretty cool. 😊 If it's not too weak i prefer it than the classic sorcadin. I'm also thinking about how get till LV 10 (or 13) of abjuration wizard for boost counterspell with proficiency bonus, but it's probably not worth it, bcs 5 lv abjuration wizard/3 rogue/5 abjuration wizard/1 rogue/3 abjuration wizard/3 rogue can maybe have some tier where it's too bad.

[adb82]

I believe what was meant here was the Archfey warlock patron.

You describe three things you want: Counterspell, Shadow Blade, Extra Attack. As mentioned, Shadow Blade isn't in the PHB to begin with, but let's assume for discussion purposes you're allowed to take it. Bladesinger can easily get all three... but they're also not in the PHB. Pact of the Blade Warlock can easily get (the equivalent of) all three... but as explained, their Extra Attack equivalent is limited to their pact weapon, and thus not the Shadow Blade.

Otherwise:

All three:


Valor bards get Extra Attack at level 6, and can take Counterspell and Shadow Blade with Magical Secrets at level 10. Of course, since you're starting at level 1, it'll take a long time to get to 10, if it even happens at all.
Multiclass a martial class with a caster. Again, that means it'll take 10 levels: 5 in the martial for Extra Attack, 5 in the caster for Counterspell. (The poor man's version would be Fighter 2, allowing one "Extra Attack" per short rest.)

Counterspell & Shadow Blade, but not Extra Attack:


A lore bard can take both spells with Additional Magical Secrets at level 6.
An arcane trickster can have both spells at level 14. Not great! (If you want to actually be good at counterspelling, you also want a full caster, unless you have some way to get what should be a secondary stat very high.)
Any wizard, sorcerer, or warlock. As stated, Abjuration Wizard would be the best at Counterspelling. War Wizard (not PHB) gets some (very little) benefit from successfully Counterspelling.


Shadow blade is in xanatar, you are right, but the dm said i can play it. Anyway, what i want is a gish based on counterspell, shadow blade and hopefully crit fishing with elven Accuracy, the second attack it's not necessary if the build without it it's not underpowered compered with the straight classes.

I don't know If it's better go abjuration wizard till the end or if it can be better multiclass it with arcane trickster at a certain point, and if multiclassing I'm not sure it's better stop abjuration wizard at lv5 or bring it till LV 10/13

[mistajames]

If you're going PHB only, you can make a viable (not really that strong, but it's not debilitatingly weak or anything) gish out of Pact of the Blade if you work at it. PAM/GWM and Blade Pact, while pumping Strength. Take Moderately Armored at level 1 with a Variant Human for defence.

Otherwise, Eldritch Knight is a very competent subclass. It's mostly a warrior though, so if you want something closer to a full caster you need to look elsewhere.

Sorcadin is also both available and viable. Either Paladin 2/Sorcerer X or Paladin 6/Sorcerer X. Strength or Dex based. They really become good at higher levels (8+ or so) though, so bear that in mind.

Paladin/Warlock is also somewhat viable. Paladin 6/Warlock X or Paladin 2/Warlock X works fine.

Whatever you do, get to 5 in your warrior class before multiclassing (to get Extra Attack). Otherwise you're playing a caster that will eventually turn into a gish - you probably want to play a gish from L1.

EDIT: Shadow Blade works well with classes that get Extra Attack (like EK or BS) that can trigger the attack twice, which Rogue does not get (they can often get advantage though for sneak attack, which is alright) . SB doesn't work with Blade Pact, so Warlock is out. BS is not an option, so I'd consider taking EK if you want to rely on SB for damage (it's really your only good option).

[adb82]

The lore Bard also seem a good choice to pick if i want stay out of the sorcadin, however I suppose at some point it's anyway good to multiclass paladin for boost damage...

[meandean]

Shadow blade is in xanatar, you are right, but the dm said i can play it. Anyway, what i want is a gish based on counterspell, shadow blade and hopefully crit fishing with elven Accuracy, the second attack it's not necessary if the build without it it's not underpowered compered with the straight classes.

I don't know If it's better go abjuration wizard till the end or if it can be better multiclass it with arcane trickster at a certain point, and if multiclassing I'm not sure it's better stop abjuration wizard at lv5 or bring it till LV 10/13I don't think you can both have big crits, and take Abjuration Wizard to 10. If you go that far into Wizard and then multiclass Rogue, it'll take forever for you to get meaningful Sneak Attack dice. And Wizard/Paladin multiclass isn't viable unless you're allowed to roll stats and get very lucky.

If you want big crits plus those two spells, then I'd say either Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, or Rogue 2/Wizard (Abjuration) 5/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) X. Should be easy to choose which one appeals to you more, the heavily armored guy/gal with more spells, or the stealthy guy/gal with fewer spells.

EDIT: When multiclassing two classes with the "Spellcasting" feature -- which means everyone besides Warlocks -- spell slots do stack, as described in the multiclassing table in the PHB. Your maximum spellcasting level for each individual class remains the same, so your highest-level spell slots may be upcast-only. Assassins aren't good unless your DM doesn't understand the surprise rules :smallwink:

[adb82]

I don't think you can both have big crits, and take abjuration wizard to 10. If you go that far into wizard and then MC Rogue, it'll take forever for you to get meaningful Sneak Attack dice. And wizard/paladin MC isn't viable unless you're allowed to roll stats and get very lucky.

If you want big crits plus those two spells, then I'd say either Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, or Rogue 2/Wizard (Abjuration) 5/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) X. Should be easy to choose which one appeals to you more, the heavily armored guy/gal with more spells, or the stealthy guy/gal with fewer spells.

EDIT: When multiclassing two classes with the "Spellcasting" feature -- which means everyone besides warlocks -- spell slots do stack, as described in the multiclassing table in the PHB. Your maximum spellcasting level for each individual class remains the same, so your highest-level spell slots may be upcast-only. Assassins aren't good unless your DM doesn't understand the surprise rules :smallwink:

Yes sneak attack would be more slow going till LV 10, but I was thinking that at same time shadow blade grow faster, and even there is some damage lost i thought it was compensated by the much easier counterspell that abjuration wizard get at LV 10, but this would probably mean go till LV 10 starting with wizard and at this point it's much better try to grow int and dex the more I can...for exemple starting with an half elf with this stats:

Str 9
Dex 16
Cos 10
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 12

Lv 6 get +2 dex, LV 8 elven accuracy, LV 12 +2 int LV 16 +2 dex or int, probably int for stronger counterspell, and so go, as you said, just till LV 5 of abjuration wizard. But may I ask why you start with 2 LV of rogue? Just for the saving throw? Bcs this delay counterspell and shadow blade both.

About crits yep, I'm trying to find other way than the sorcadin.

About spell slots, they stack even between, for example, a ranger and a wizard? Even they don't use the same stat for cast?

[meandean]

I don't have Shadow Blade experience, but I'd think that if you've got enough Wizard levels to do really powerful Wizard stuff, you'd have better options than upcasting Shadow Blade. Just in general, if you're multiclassing a martial and a caster, you want to take a brief dip in one and focus mostly on the other. An even split between the two is usually not good.


But may I ask why you start with 2 LV of rogue? Just for the saving throw? Bcs this delay counterspell and shadow blade both.
Yeah, plus the leather armor and more skills, including expertise in two of them. 2 rather than 1 because being a Rogue without Cunning Action suuuuuucks (especially if you're specifically trying to crit!)


About spell slots, they stack even between, for example, a ranger and a wizard? Even they don't use the same stat for cast?Yeah, casting ability doesn't matter. See the chart in the multiclassing section. Rangers count as half-casters, so if you're Wizard 4/Ranger 2, you'd count as "5th level" for purposes of that chart, which means four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. Your maximum Wizard spell level is still 2nd, and your maximum Ranger spell level is still 1st. So despite having the "slots for it", you still can't cast 3rd-level Wizard spells, or 2nd or 3rd-level Ranger spells. You can upcast 1st and 2nd-level Wizard spells into your 3rd-level slots, and 1st-level Ranger spells into your 2nd and 3rd-level slots. (Man, I wish they didn't use the word "level" for both those things.)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hello everyone guys,
I'm starting a new campaign from LV 1, point buy stat, using only the base player's handbook (maybe I'll be allowed to use elven accuracy, but I'm still not sure about that). If I would be allowed to play with all manuals i would try an half elf bladesinger/arcane trickster focusing on shadow blade, counterspell and elven accuracy, getting war caster as feat and using booming blade and GFB. Now i would like to play something similar, but as I said I'm allowed only to use player's handbook and maybe elven accuracy. The First build come up to me is straight arcane trickster (hopefully with elven accuracy, otherwise human variant), assuming there is no way to get an extra attack somehow without delay too much counterspell and shadow blade, here my biggest problem is that anyway it gets shadow blade only at LV 7 and counterspell at LV 13 that looks a bit too late, especially for counterspell. That said, it can be useful mix it with some wizard LV for get these features earlier, losing some sneak attack dice and rogue progression, even if i can't use a bladesinger and so i have no second attack and other bladesinger things? In case which wizard subclass fit better the purpose and how many LV should i dip into it? 5 or 7 can be enough? At which point I'll deep wizard?

Thanks for the help.
I was kind of thinking valor bard too, as per some of the other posters. But your original idea of Arcane Trickster is a very good overall character. I think you've got your mind around a bladesinger, but trying to reproduce that exact combo of abilities from another class or classes seems to be inefficient, and might lead you into a weak overall character.
As per the AT, yes you'll have to wait until 7th to get shadow blade, but you will have BB and/ or GFB right away, which doesn't (usually) mix with muti-attack anyway so you aren't behind there. As for counterspell, well that's for some (not all) full casters, so let someone else do this... or don't. If that's the priority then play a class that gets it at 5th.

[adb82]

I was kind of thinking valor bard too, as per some of the other posters. But your original idea of Arcane Trickster is a very good overall character. I think you've got your mind around a bladesinger, but trying to reproduce that exact combo of abilities from another class or classes seems to be inefficient, and might lead you into a weak overall character.
As per the AT, yes you'll have to wait until 7th to get shadow blade, but you will have BB and/ or GFB right away, which doesn't (usually) mix with muti-attack anyway so you aren't behind there. As for counterspell, well that's for some (not all) full casters, so let someone else do this... or don't. If that's the priority then play a class that gets it at 5th.

BB and GFB are Unluckly on SCAG and not on the player's handbook (i can use only shadow blade and maybe elven accuracy outside the player's handbook). Valor bard also get both spells at lv 10...the bard can work more as lore Bard multiclassed with paladin, it get the counterspell and the shadow blade one level later than sorcadin, but it seem a good way Anyway, as well as multiclass the lore Bard with an arcane trickster, that anyway lose the second attack and aura of protection and some heal, for get uncanny dodge, evasion, cunning action and social boost like expertise, assuming smite and sneak attack are both good damage boost. Sorcadin it's anyway much stronger than a bard/arcane trickster, that probably in combat its not that useful, but the idea to get double expertise and jack of all trades in one pg looks very fun to play.

[Kane0]

Hello everyone guys,
I'm starting a new campaign from LV 1, point buy stat, using only the base player's handbook (maybe I'll be allowed to use elven accuracy, but I'm still not sure about that). If I would be allowed to play with all manuals i would try an half elf bladesinger/arcane trickster focusing on shadow blade, counterspell and elven accuracy, getting war caster as feat and using booming blade and GFB. Now i would like to play something similar, but as I said I'm allowed only to use player's handbook and maybe elven accuracy. The First build come up to me is straight arcane trickster (hopefully with elven accuracy, otherwise human variant), assuming there is no way to get an extra attack somehow without delay too much counterspell and shadow blade, here my biggest problem is that anyway it gets shadow blade only at LV 7 and counterspell at LV 13 that looks a bit too late, especially for counterspell. That said, it can be useful mix it with some wizard LV for get these features earlier, losing some sneak attack dice and rogue progression, even if i can't use a bladesinger and so i have no second attack and other bladesinger things? In case which wizard subclass fit better the purpose and how many LV should i dip into it? 5 or 7 can be enough? At which point I'll deep wizard?

Thanks for the help.

Perhaps ask your DM if you can play a Paladin or Ranger with their spell list swapped to the warlock or sorcerer, perhaps with 2-3 school limitations like EKs/ATs.

Otherwise Bladelock is fine, change over to fighter whenever you're ready as even if you progress far enough to double up on Extra Attack you can swap out the invocation. Take the Ritual Caster feat (or Tasha's Fey/Shadow touched) if you really feel lacking in the caster department.

[Gignere]

Another option if PHB is the only thing available is to go Dragon sorcerer until level 5 then multi into Arcane Trickster.

[kingcheesepants]

It may be worth noting that an Abjuration Wizard is the best at counterspelling as he gets to add his prof bonus to counterspell checks (starting at 10). Bards are the second best at counterspelling because Jack of All Trades lets them add half. If you don't mind lighter armor and no extra attack either a straight Abjuration Wizard (unfortunately no hobgoblin because again not PHB) or a Lore Bard, could fill your Shadow Blade and counterspelling needs pretty handily without delay. Or a valor bard can do everything but doesn't have SB or Counterspell till 10.

I would also echo those saying to be wary of overdoing it with martial/caster multiclassing. A level or 2 to pick up some cool stuff can help you out but doing more than that is delaying or locking you out of better higher level features for only incremental gains. Another multiclassing option that nobody mentioned yet is Wiz/Cleric. Clerics (depending on domain) can get martial weapons, med/heavy armor, and shields, so they make at least passable gishes. And there's no detriment to the spell slots. Honestly they aren't super great for your idea (which is presumably why nobody else mentioned them) but they can add some toughness to help an otherwise squishy wizard be a better melee combatant and are at least worth thinking about.

[adb82]

Well guys, i talked with my dm that opened to some use of other manuals, i got to use bladesinger and all xanatar. So i can choose now to go bladesinger + arcane trickster or lore Bard + arcane trickster or, but i don't honestly know how and if it could work, a bladesinger with 2 lv Bard dip, just for Jack of all trades and so stronger counterspell...but it gonna lose lots of sneak attack in this way and I'm scared the loss of damage output make it not worth it, and also that it gonna end playing like a normal wizard...which do you think looks better for my idea of pg? 🤔

[adb82]

Reading better xanatar i think I have 2 option that I didn't considered before: 6 bladesinger/3 sword bard/x bladesinger or 6 bladesinger/x whispers bard...especially this last build allow me to use psychic blades for make the damage gap with multiclassing arcane trickster smaller, and seem fit really well the crit fishing purpose with shadow blade + elven accuracy as i can choose to use it only when i crit, plus it help a lot with counter spell thanks to jack of all trades and it get all the spells i need at LV 5. Do you think it's viable? I'll post the build with all stat and feats on another post if it's a build that can work kinda well.

Ps it was allowed also the use of booming blade and GFB, so if there is some good use i can do with them on this build would be nice, but I think the only way is getting war caster feat, and use them only on opportunity attacks.

[Gignere]

Reading better xanatar i think I have 2 option that I didn't considered before: 6 bladesinger/3 sword bard/x bladesinger or 6 bladesinger/x whispers bard...especially this last build allow me to use psychic blades for make the damage gap with multiclassing arcane trickster smaller, and seem fit really well the crit fishing purpose with shadow blade + elven accuracy as i can choose to use it only when i crit, plus it help a lot with counter spell thanks to jack of all trades and it get all the spells i need at LV 5. Do you think it's viable? I'll post the build with all stat and feats on another post if it's a build that can work kinda well.

Ps it was allowed also the use of booming blade and GFB, so if there is some good use i can do with them on this build would be nice, but I think the only way is getting war caster feat, and use them only on opportunity attacks.

If you are going whispers bard you may want to go to level 5 for the short rest recharge on the inspiration dice. Blade cantrips are good on a Bladesinger 6 because they can use it as part of their extra attack. Warcaster is not necessary.

[kingcheesepants]

Whether or not such builds are viable is a question of how much you value higher level spells. 4th level spells like Polymorph and Banishment are extremely effective when they show up (and banishment remains so for the rest of the game) and 5th level spells like wall of force are game changing. If I had already put the time into getting to level 6 I wouldn't switch off just before picking up those things. The things you can pick up from a multiclass are nice but are they as nice as being able to polymorph or wall of force? I'd say not. I'd stick with Bladesinger all the way it's a decent gish on its own especially in the way you seem to be envisioning it. And while multiclassing can bring about some handy things I think you'll feel the lack of the higher level stuff more than you'll appreciate 1d6 sneak attack damage or a +3 to your counterspell checks. See if your DM will let you take the telekinetic feat if you want your mage hand to be invisible (ala arcane trickster). Or either the skilled feat or skill expert feat if you really want to skill monkey while still being a wizard.