DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231 [Archive]

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DataNinja

2021-02-04, 01:29 PM

Well, it's that time again, when we've talked so much we've filled up the thread. The good news is, we have a brand new thread! So, we'd better go and fill this one up, too. So c'mon over, sit down, and just talk. Doesn't matter if you've been here before, or never. Everyone's welcome, so long as you follow the rules below.

Amotis' Random Banter #1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13484)
Dhavaer's Random Banter #2 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13401)
PhoeKun's Random Banter #3 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13319)
Rei Jin's Random Banter #4 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13205)
Toxic Avenger's Random Banter #5 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13146)
Jibar's Random Banter #6 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13026)
Ego Slayer's Surrogate Random Banter #7 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12939)
Sneak's Random Barroom Brawl #8 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12918)
Sophistemon's Solemnly Random Banter #9 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12855)
Vaynor's Very Random Banter #10 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12834)
Bookman's Blathering Random Banter #11 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12809)
Gralamin's Glorious Random Banter #12 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12785)
Rilik's Resplendently Random Raillery #13 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12766)
Gezina's Growling Grazing Random Banter #14 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12747)
The Zerglings Utterly And Geeky Random Banter #15 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12740)
jaqueses Truthfully Randomly Fireside Banter # 16 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12735)
Jack Squat’s Jubilantly Quixotic Random Banter #17 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12693)
Cardel's Banter of Cookie Jubilation #18 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12668)
Archonic's Chaotically Random Banter of Rods #19 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12657)
The Rod's Inanimate Temple of RANDOM banter #20 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12638)
Lucky’s Loquaciously Loud-Mouthed Random Banter#21 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12630)
Deckmaster's Divinely Delightful Random Banter #22 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12614)
Saithis' Soliloquy of Random Banter #23 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12598)
Loveable Lianae's Ludicrous Lampooning Lottery #24 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12578)
NEO|Phyte's Neolithic Nest of Weasel Banter #25 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12544)
Target's Random Banter of "non-violence" #26 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12533)
Tarnag40k's Random banter of "grammar errors" #27 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12515)
Kyrian's Random Banter of ADHDness #28 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12507)
El Jaspero's Random Drunken Ramblings #29 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12503)
Boss Smiley's Eloquently Eggy Banter #30 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12494)
Lykan's Looney Explosionarama & Random Banter #31 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12482)
Iames's Iambic Yarn of Yammering #32 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12468)
Dispozition's Deviously Distressed Banter #33 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12458)
CP's Copiously Combusting Banter of Carnage #34 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12445)
Alarra's Altar of Random Banter #35 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12432)
Eloquent Rune's Electrifying Rambling Banter #36 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12423)
E_P's Very Own Quite Popular Random Banter #37 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12419)
Hydrogelic's Foolish Mortal Random Banter #38 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12413)
Ink's Smudgy Splotchy Random Banter #39 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12405)
Azrael's Big Black Book of Banter #40 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12397)
The Logic Vampire's Rational Random Banter #41 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12387)
Shiny's Shimmering Space-hitchin Random Banter #42 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12376)
ZombieRockStar's Random Banter #43 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12360)
Nostrabel's Realm of Cookies and Random Banter #44 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12342)
Charity's Cheery Chatter Circle #45 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12328)
Samiam's Spontaneous Scintillating Soliloquy #46 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12310)
LLama's Masked Mysterious Random Banter #47 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26599)
Ravishing Rydia's Recumbentibus ^_^ Random Banter #48 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27622)
Penguinizers Perilous Random Banter #49 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28083)
Death's delightfully morbid surrogate random banter #50 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28444)
Wayril's wonderfully weird surrogate random banter #51 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28990)
Rawhide's Deck of Random Banter (52 Cards) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29697)
Korith's Sorrogate Random Banter of Zombie Killing #53 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30353)
Surrogate thread of random Bor-dom #54 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31109)
Rex Idiotarum's Painfully Pogoing Thread #55 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31512)
The Wrath of KHAAAAAANtalas’s William Shatner Flavored Random Banter # 56 (Surrogate) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32080)
EmeraldRose's Random Banter of Lashing Wit #57 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32494)
Captain van der Decken's Surrogate Ship of Random Loot (Banter) #58 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32847)
SDF's Neverending I-Don't-Have-an-OotS-Avatar-Yet Story Banter #59 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33465)
Mauril's Surrogate Dwelf Banter of Fantasy Race Confusion 60th Edition (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34165)
Rockphed's Dice Rolling Toga Party of 61 Drunken CIA Analysts (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34568)
var Lord_Magtok = Random(Banter*62) + Surrogate (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34801)
Jibar's Retro Random Banter #63 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35014)
Malina's Random Spanish Banter #64 of morphical annoyance (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35256)
Mr. E's Random Banter #65 of Cane Toting and Hat Tipping (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35418)
Ego Slayer's Hellishly Random Banter #66.6 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35596)
Purple Gelatinous Cube o' Doom's bowl of bantery j-e-ll-o randomness #67 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35859)
Zephra's Random Banter of Ghostly Wailings, and Howling Fun#68 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36317)
Cobra Ikari's Random Banter #69 of Rampant Hugging, Guttermindedness, and ;-) Kinky. (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36977)
Scorpina's Random Banter #70 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37480)
Raistlin1040's Super Special Awesome Random Banter #71(Now with 20% more tacos) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37824)
Uberblah's Random Banter #72 Of Caffeine And Sleep Deprivation Induced Randomness (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38225)
Lucky’s Random Banter #73 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38987)
Castaras's Random Banter #74 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37836)
D'anna Biers RB #75 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39495)
Zeb The Troll's RB#76 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39801)
Eldpollard's RB #77 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40128)
Gezina's and Calamity's Random banter #78 of double entendre and doom (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40410)
Random Banter #79 In Loving Memory of Hexa_Regina (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40909)
Zeratul's random banter #80 of throwing puppies off bridges (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41778)
Vespe's Random Banter #81 of singing dolphins and mostly harmless planets. (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43254)
CSK's Giant in the Playground Forums Addicted Anonymous, Random Banter #82 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44919)
Iames's Ramblingly Erratic Belldandy-Charged Random Banter #83 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47592)
Serpentine's Scintillating Sensually and Sinuously Seductive Stochastic Satire #84 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49048)
Radikalskippy's Random Banter #85 of lost ideas and where to find them... (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50658)
Moon Called's Random Banter #86 of Sexy Anime Boys and Fangirl Squeals (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51825)
Lilly's Lovely Random Banter #87 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52783)
FdL's Fuzzbox-Fueled Random Banter #88 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54612)
SweetRein's Sugary Restrained Random Banter #89 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59668)
Midnight's Mutant Motorcycle Madness Random Banter #90 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62430)
Em's Extremely Extraordinarily Epic Random Banter #91 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65645)
Dragonrider's Random Banter in Conjunction with the Weighted Cube #92 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67629)
Bushranger's Bodaciously Buffed Random Banter-y Rooster #93 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69425)
Haruki's Historically Hilarious Honey-covered Random Banter #94 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71161)
North's Maple Syrup Flavored Non-Alliterative Random Banter #95 Eh? (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73464)
Wadledo's Weirdly Warbling Watercress Watching Washing Machine Only Random Banter #96 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75946)
SMEE's Random Banter #97 of gender bending and closet bursting (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78694)
Raiser's Rambunctiously Rambling Random Banter #98 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81626)
Dr. Bath's Random Banter, dripping with daring deeds of dastardly deipnosophists #99 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84068)
VOTE, the Democracy Demon's Devilishly Devious and Decidedly Diabolical Desultory Derision (Random Banter) #100 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84914)
Jack Squat's Justlessly Juxtaposed Random Banter #101 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87577)
Dallas-Dakota's Dundering Dandelion's Devilish Damsel's Distress Random Banter #102 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4790602#post4790602)
Destro Yersul's Dangerously Distracting and Doubtlessly Disturbing Random Banter #103 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4903962#post4903962)
Aziraphales Actually Alliterative and Awesomely Affluent Random Banter #104 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92718)
Cristo's Consistently Confusing and Constantly Casual Random Banter #105 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94491)
Dish's Delightfully Deranged and Deliciously Deliquent Random Banter # 106 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95905)
Slayer's Seemingly Sweet and Socially Silly Random Banter # 107 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97703)
Zero's ambrosial and aberrantly adventitious, abstemiously erudite Random Banter #108 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99100)
Coplantor's Completely Creative Cautious and Contemplative Random Banter #109 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100414)
Rutskarn's Roly-Poly Rebellious and Rejected Random Banter #110 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101156)
TwoBitWriter's Tubular Tracts of Thought-Talking Random Banter #111 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5600540#post5600540)
Phase's Phully Phormed, Phalangeal, and Phantasmagorical Random Banter #112 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101988)
Wolfbane's Wonderfully Wacky and Wildly Wandom Random Banter #113 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102865)
The Kiwi's Kinkily Knotted and Kookily Kickass Random Banter #114 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103674)
Jude's Judgmental Jugular Jab and Jibber Jabbery Random Banter #115 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104480)
The Throne of Thufir's Thoroughly Theoretical and Therapeutic Random Banter #116 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105584)
Random Banter #117 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106698)
Dragonprime's Dynamically Dangerous Dextrous and Destructive Random Banter #118 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107882)
Farmer Felix's Fantastic FRandom FBanter #119 (may contain traces of fnuts) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109007)
Groundhog's Random Banter of Weather Prediction and Anti-Gopherness (part one) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110963&page=50)
Groundhog's Random Banter of Weather Prediction and Anti-Gopherness (part two) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113197)
Mrmud's Mixed-Up and Minimally Mechanized Random Banter #121 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114623)
Dogmantra's Dastardly, Despotic and Dangerous Random Banter #122 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116660)
Alteran's Amazingly Anachronistic, Altruistic, and Antagonistic Random Banter #123 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118380)
Admiral Euphoria's Random Banter Thread of Delusional Grandeur #124 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6614894)
Fred's Flying Fishy, Fighting, Fiery, Fantastic Face Off Random Banter #125 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121385)
Cyrano’s Non-Alliterative Inaugurational Random Banter #126 To Usher In The Future (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122977)
Thanatos's Tharmturges Present: Tropical, Tipsy, and Typically Random Banter #127
(https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123816)loopy's Legendary and Long-Awaited Lollipop Fuelled Random Banter #128 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124786)
Shadow's Shady Shop of Sharks, Shingles, Shammies, Shiny and Random Banter #129 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125667)
KataraAltinaII's Premature Not So Short & To-The-Point Random Banter #130 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126557)
Supagoof's Supa-Sensational Silly Symphonies Set Sizzingly On Fire Random Banter #131 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128570)
Pyrian's Pyrotechnic Pyre of Pyrrhic Pyros with Pyrotic Pythics Random Banter #132! (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130459)
Perenelle's Pleasantly Playful and Passionately Peculiar Random Banter #133 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131814)
Rpgsr4me's Ravenous, Roaring, Raging Rampage of Random Banter #134 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7373844#post7373844)
Il'deav Ilah'naie's Indiscreet Intimacies on Indigo Iceboats Random Banter #135 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134438)
Recaiden's Resplendent and Rotating Realistic Random Banter #136 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136879)
Jibar's Random Banter #137: Return of the Cat-muffin (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138879)
Edge's Effluence of Extravagant and Effulgent Random Banter #138 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7876065)
Zeb The Troll's Zecond Go At Ze Random Banter #139 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8061505&postcount=1)
Curly's Rambunctious and Erudite Random Banter #140 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148462)
Deth Muncher's Destructive and Meandering Random Banter #141 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150904)
A Thread in Which Banter Most Random is Expulsed Into Existence, By Ravens_cry #142 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8722755)
Several Silly Sealions Stuffed Seaweed Southward Swiftly (Or, Random Banter #143) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159998)
The thread that changed name one last time, with style. (Random Banter #144) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161407)
Banjo’s Bodacious & Boosted Bumper Bulletproof Box of Banter Most Random #145 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162819)
Masa's Massively Masterful Message Medium - Random Banter #146 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164224)
KuReshtin's Vociferously Ruminating Harbinger of Random Banter - #147 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166664)
Archonic's Archaic Acronymical Antidisestablishmentarianism Random Banter - #148 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169890)
Skeppio's Splendidly Strange & Superbly Scintillating Random Banter - #149 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173056)
Teddy's Turbulent and Topicless Random Banter #150 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175338)
Fifty-Eyed Fred's Ferociously Fanatical and Fabulously Fascinating Random Banter #151 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178205)
Rae's Really Rascally and Ridiculously Rowdy Random Banter #152 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181296)
Haruki's Hot n' Holy Random Banter #153 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10176275#post10176275)
MoonCat's Magnificently Mythopoeic Random Banter #154 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187576)
Eadin's Exchange of Extraterrestrial Excuses AKA Random Banter #155 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190034)
Happy HalfTangible's Horrific Hail of Random Banter #156 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10629167#post10629167)
AtlanteanTroll's Atrocious and Terrific Arcade of Terror - RB #157 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196302)
LaLa’s Laughably Silly Random Banter Thread – RB #158 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198767)
Zaydos's Zany Zooetic Random Banter - RB #159 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200208)
Blue's Blessed and Blissful Random Banter - RB #160 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201653)
Absolmorph's Azoic Arete of Adventitious and Aimless Random Banter - RB 161 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202546)
Gwyn's Gloriously Green Garrumphing Garter of Garrulous Gabble! Random Banter #162 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203954)
Eruantion's Euphoric, Elephant-filled Elevated Epoch of Eurhythmic Random Banter #163 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205487)
ATW's Awesome Androgynous Avaricious Azure Ardent Adamant Alluvial Random Banter #164 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207269)
Cynical Avocado's Absolutely Admirable Accumulation of Random Bantering #165 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209860)
August's Pink Plushy and Phantasmagorically Random Banter Thread #166 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212011)
Heliomance's Everchanging Thread Title Random Banter #167 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213053)
Tragic_Comedian's Tremendously Tropical Random Banter #168 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215180)
Qwertystop's Quickly Quilted, Quip-filled Random Banter #169 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217326)
Thufir's Thupremely Thatithfying Thecond Random Banter With a Lithp #170 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219654)
Feytalist's Fantastically Freakish First Random Banter #171 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222713)
Dragonprime's Dashing Delight-fu Dazzling Dualistic Random Banter #172
Castaras' Random Banter #173: Bringing back your nostalgic Great Old Ones (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229164)
Pokemon-freak89's Random Banter number eleventy-twelve... uhh... I mean... number 174 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231235)
Dark Elf Bard's Random Banter #175:Playin' Underdark Jazz since the Drow went dark. (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235950)
Mutant Sheep's Post Septaquintaquinquecentennial ApRiL fOoLs Random Banter: #176 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238117)
Elemental's Excitingly Excellent Random Banter: No.CLXXVII (177) (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13163770)
Amiel's Appeasingly Appropriate Arbitrary Amusement (Random Banter): No.CLXXVIII #178 (https://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245179)
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Random Banter Rules:

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Peelee

2021-02-04, 01:33 PM

What if the real treasure was the threads we made on the way?

Tvtyrant

2021-02-04, 01:41 PM

I wish I could see a new thread, but it's invisible. I think it might be a data ninja.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 01:42 PM

To repeat my prior point for convenience, since Dataninja ninja'd my post with the New Thread

Let's say you need to walk across a beam 6 inches wide and 6 feet long. You're not intuitively aware of any numbers that quantity anything, you're aware of how off-balance you feel.

And we're not the Hulk, are we? We don't think in Math and perceive the world in numbers. Hulk does.

We're talking about someone who can smell lies—not detect subtle changes in body odor when someone is stressed by telling a lie, like say Wolverine or dare Devil, but rather the intangible concept of "untruth" whenever someone speaks a lie in his presence. He lives in a world where radiation poisoning sometimes turns you into an immortal metaphor for your own mental health issues.

"Hulk thinks in Math" is honestly the least weird thing about him.

Fyraltari

2021-02-04, 01:43 PM

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!

I maybe didn't explain it right

when Amadeus Cho attempted to cure Banner of the Hulk by using modified Sternbots to drain the Hulk's powers into himself(it didn't stick), becoming the Totally Awesome Hulk, he is in control of himself in his Hulk Form and describes it as if you're intuitively aware of the numbers that quantify everything and instinctively plug them in to figure things out without even thinking about it.

No, you explained it very clearly, but it's still wrong. There aren't "numbers that quantify everything" numbers are an invention of the human mind, math is just a tool we came up with. Muscle control has nothing to do with math. It's just a sciency sounding way of saying "he's somehow instictively aware of how heavy/hard/dense/etc everything around him is so he knows exactly how hard to it to not make more damage than necessary."

enderlord99

2021-02-04, 01:48 PM

There are still people who have heard of both Neil Cicierega and Lemon Demon, but don't know they're the same person.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 01:49 PM

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!

No, you explained it very clearly, but it's still wrong. There aren't "numbers that quantify everything" numbers are an invention of the human mind, math is just a tool we came up with. Muscle control has nothing to do with math. It's just a sciency sounding way of saying "he's somehow instictively aware of how heavy/hard/dense/etc everything around him is so he knows exactly how hard to it to not make more damage than necessary."

Hulk looks at tank. Hulk wants to smash the tank, but not the people inside it.

Hulk sees in his mind's eye the exact equations needed to calculate exactly how much force he needs to exert and which part of the tank to hit from what angle to do that.

Those equations in his mind's eye solve themselves.

Hulk know knows how to smash the tank without smashing the people inside.

This all happened in seconds.

enderlord99

2021-02-04, 01:52 PM

Hulk looks at tank. Hulk wants to smash the tank, but not the people inside it.

Hulk sees in his mind's eye the exact equations needed to calculate exactly how much force he needs to exert and which part of the tank to hit from what angle to do that.

Those equations in his mind's eye solve themselves.

Hulk know knows how to smash the tank without smashing the people inside.

This all happened in seconds.

Those aren't equations. "Equations" are fake.

I don't know what you're not getting here.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-04, 01:56 PM

I hadn't heard of either, so I guess I just met my 'learn something new today' quota.

Peelee

2021-02-04, 02:01 PM

Further, Hulk perceiving the world in numbers is meaningless - numbers are data, raw figures with no meaning themselves. Math is the process of turning data into information. If Hulk thinks in numbers, but can't do math, then thinking in numbers is completely useless to him and carries absolutely zero significance or meaning. It's technobabble, no different than The Doctor reversing the polarity so they can time travel into the wormhole. Saying a bunch of science-sounding things just because of how it sounds doesn't really do anything, and that's what "he thinks in numbers" is when they claim he can't do basic algebra but thinks in numbers.

Second, even ignoring that, the whole point is "hulk can do X because he thinks in numbers", as contrasted to "all life can do X and do not think in numbers," so that cannot be true of Hulk.

Again, writers can write whatever they want, but if the next issue of Hulk has H2O(l) - - heat--> H2O(g) and claims that formula is an example of the gravimetric constant, that does not make it so. I'm usually the first one to board the "if it's written that X is the case, then in this world X is the case" train, but there are limits.

LaZodiac

2021-02-04, 02:02 PM

I will also translocate my post here...

Okay, got it.

Night-magic. I was still brainstorming root words related to darkness and shadow. It's Latin, though because I know piss all about ancient Greek (also it should be noctomancy, but come on, why pass on a perfectly serviceable x?)

Hulk would be right. That's not math. Math is a way to modelize the world by reducing it to numbers. What Hulk is doing in that example is the same thing you and I do when, say, scoring a point in basketball. Sure you could modelize what's happening with math but when you do it, you don't use math. You know from experience how much strenght to use to get what result but you're not thinking in tems of newtons or kilograms or watts.

Glad you do! If you want more info, and want to see it in action, you know where to look :smallamused:

Aah, right. Nox is night. Forgot that. God yeah, x's are good to use. Have a good feel to them.

It is unthinking math, if that makes sense. Even if they don't know the exact equations, they are still performing math.

Peelee

2021-02-04, 02:04 PM

It is unthinking math, if that makes sense. Even if they don't know the exact equations, they are still performing math.

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.

LaZodiac

2021-02-04, 02:13 PM

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do. Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 02:13 PM

Those aren't equations. "Equations" are fake.

I don't know what you're not getting here.

I don't get why people are saying "it doesn't work that way" and "numbers are fake" when I explain that the exaggerated caricature of a genius three-year-old born from a combination of severe mental illness and magic radiation from the depths of Hell literally sees numbers when he looks at anything and can instinctively use those numbers to figure out things that other people would have to work out through trial and error becuase he thinks in math.

Like,I'm not speaking metaphorically. When Amadeus Cho had the Hulk's powers he described being the Hulk as perceiving the World in numbers and thinking in math. One of Bruce's more intelligent alters later confirmed that this was accurate for the original Hulk.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way... For real people. Real people don't know the exact measurements of something just by looking at it but can't put it into words when asked by it.

Real people also can't touch things that have no physical mass, smell concepts, see ghosts, or make sound in a vacuum.

Jasdoif

2021-02-04, 02:16 PM

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.This is a case of "it's just like doing the math, but without doing math". A standard format for "instinct, not skill" in general, really. What I think's happening is confusing a representation for the thing it represents, much like the Treachery of Images (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images).

Fyraltari

2021-02-04, 02:29 PM

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do.
That has nothing to do with math.

Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.
No, it isn't. Math is a representation of the world a way to frame it so our minds can process reality. Because it is used to describe universal things it feels universal but it actually is just a representation.

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

DataNinja

2021-02-04, 02:31 PM

What if the real treasure was the threads we made on the way?
Well then I'd have two nickels!

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!
Casual parlance is great, but I feel like rules should tend towards more precise. So it may have slightly bothered me. :smalltongue:

Tvtyrant

2021-02-04, 02:33 PM

LaZodiac

2021-02-04, 02:34 PM

That has nothing to do with math.

No, it isn't. Math is a representation of the world a way to frame it so our minds can process reality. Because it is used to describe universal things it feels universal but it actually is just a representation.

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

The human creation known as "the number one" is make believe, but the reality of what it represents is 100% real and solid.

Anyway, last night I had a really strange dream, which I have posted below;

I am in my mother's house
I am female bodied and also a yakuza (unsure if good) who can create semi chibi clones of myself (uh...) who is currently creating a bunch to like, keep the house secure.
My grandma is there (she is deceased in real life) and she's talking to me about how talking with some of my friends has helped cheer her up. I'm a little concerned cause I'm not sure if my grandma should be talking to my friends or not.
Also, a stray cat has brought a bunch of kittens to our doorstep to be taken care of by our cat (we don't have a cat)
and Sae Saejima (not real, his name is Taiga Saejima) and Goro Majime from the Yakuza series are outside playing with the cats.

Fyraltari

2021-02-04, 02:36 PM

Well then I'd have two nickels!

Casual parlance is great, but I feel like rules should tend towards more precise. So it may have slightly bothered me. :smalltongue:
I agree, I was starting to find it weird, to be honest. Plus I was never really happy with it.

I don't think that is quite accurate to be honest. Things like Vacuum Force were discovered entirely based on mathematical proofs which as I understand were pretty abstract.
I don't know anything about that.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 02:52 PM

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.
In real life, yes. But we're not talking about real life.

Magic exists in the Marvel universe. Strictly speaking, all Superhumans are magic to some degree or another including the Hulk(who, according Thor, is a hairsbreadth away from becoming either a God or a Demon at this point. Thor can't tell which)

Part of Marvel Magic is that ideas—including words and numbers—exist and have power, objectively, just as much as an object made of tangible matter does.

And a fundamental part of the cosmology of the setting is that the "Rational, Scientific" of a phenomenon and the "Mystical, symbolic" explanation are usually both true even when they'd be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't matter that "perceive the world in numbers" isn't how it works, isn't how normal people do it, and makes no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-04, 03:07 PM

Also, a stray cat has brought a bunch of kittens to our doorstep to be taken care of by our cat (we don't have a cat)This part sounds pretty normal to me.

*looks at fuzzy interlopers sleeping in the suntangles*

Peelee

2021-02-04, 03:16 PM

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do. Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.
We actually still have no idea how birds do that, but I was talking about flight through a dynamically changing atmospheric pressure/viscosity. Thinner air up by the Matterhorn than above the waters of the Sicilian coast.

Also, so you're on the opinion we discovered math rather than invented it, then?

I don't get why people are saying "it doesn't work that way" and "numbers are fake"]
Nobody has said numbers are fake. I said numbers are data, which are meaningless without context. "6" means nothing. "that person is going 6 miles per hour" means something. But everyone can think like that, it's not a special Hulk thing, and that is based on conscious mathematical knowledge. The more conscious knowledge, the more

This is a case of "it's just like doing the math, but without doing math". A standard format for "instinct, not skill" in general, really. What I think's happening is confusing a representation for the thing it represents, much like the Treachery of Images (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images).
Yeah, I think you've got it right.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 03:26 PM

"that person is going 6 miles per hour" means something

Can you tell that someone is going 6 miles an hour with only your naked eye? While also figuring out their exact height, width, depth, volume, weight, and density just by looking at them?

And then crunch those numbers without even having to think about it so you just know how to throw a pebble so that it hits their ankle and makes them trip with no chance of missing and no chance of throwing it to hard and breaking their leg.

With the ease of breathing.

Peelee

2021-02-04, 03:41 PM

Can you tell that someone is going 6 miles an hour with only your naked eye? While also figuring out their exact height, width, depth, volume, weight, and density just by looking at them?

And then crunch those numbers without even having to think about it so you just know how to throw a pebble so that it hits their ankle and makes them trip with no chance of missing and no chance of throwing it to hard and breaking their leg.

With the ease of breathing.
If I want to throw a pebble at them and hit them kind of hard but not too hard, then I don't need to know all those things. I also don't need to know math. What you're claiming is required knowledge... isn't. It's as simple as that, really.

DataNinja

2021-02-04, 03:42 PM

In real life, yes. But we're not talking about real life.

Magic exists in the Marvel universe. Strictly speaking, all Superhumans are magic to some degree or another including the Hulk(who, according Thor, is a hairsbreadth away from becoming either a God or a Demon at this point. Thor can't tell which)

Part of Marvel Magic is that ideas—including words and numbers—exist and have power, objectively, just as much as an object made of tangible matter does.

And a fundamental part of the cosmology of the setting is that the "Rational, Scientific" of a phenomenon and the "Mystical, symbolic" explanation are usually both true even when they'd be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't matter that "perceive the world in numbers" isn't how it works, isn't how normal people do it, and makes no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

...I'm just gonna be frank and say that very time Marvel arguments and minutia discussion come up in this thread, my eyes glaze over. Especially since they very often go around and around in circles, for many many pages. Or are just about some overly pedantic thing. And... I feel like that's the same for a lot of people who aren't versed in all of that.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-04, 03:48 PM

Ah, the new thread rush.

I'll be back when it dies down. Or I run a bath, whichever is first.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-04, 03:51 PM

Ah, the new thread rush.

I'll be back when it dies down. Or I run a bath, whichever is first.

Isn't the bath what is running and you catch it?

Peelee

2021-02-04, 04:52 PM

Isn't the bath what is running and you catch it?

I hope not! I'd much prefer a hot bath and what you're describing sounds like a cold.

Fyraltari

2021-02-04, 05:01 PM

I hope not! I'd much prefer a hot bath and what you're describing sounds like a cold.

It's okay, the exercise keeps it warm.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-04, 05:13 PM

It's okay, the exercise keeps it warm.

Especially if you use a dash of lavender.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-04, 06:48 PM

Lord Raziere

2021-02-04, 07:04 PM

I'm the same way. I don't know enough to get invested, and the arguments aren't heated enough for me to take a side.

Granted, I don't want this thread to go into freefall, but watching threads go down in flames in general can be entertaining.

I mean I debate with Rater on some things, but Superhero stuff I can't really since superhero universes make so little sense, there is nothing to discuss: anything goes because magic, technology, super-genetics, super-skill and so on and forth all exist at once so there isn't really any consistency at all I can see, as I could just make up anything and it'd be a valid superhero concept. my metaphysical discussions depend on there being some consistency and unified power source that has to be figured out to maximize potential, when thats unneeded in a superhero universe- whats the point of figuring out one thing if I can become another thing through entirely different, just as valid means? When literally anything is possible, the only thing that matters is what you WANT to do with it, not what you need to figure out to make this or that work.

like I have superhero concepts, I love superheroes, but fundamentally I like them because I can make my own unique thing with them, not have to conform to some system and game it to just to make something possible.

Rater202

2021-02-04, 07:19 PM

What you're claiming is required knowledge.

When did I ever claim it was required knowledge?

I didn't.

What I claimed is that the Hulk knows it by instinct and can instinctively use it to figure out how to do things, allowing him to do the things perfectly.

If you're trying to smash a tank from muscle memory and experience with how hard to punch, eventually you're gonna screw up and kill the people in the tank.

Hulk never will—due to instinctive mathematic powers, due to thinking in math and automatically quantifying the world in numbers without having to take measurements, he always knows the exact amount o force to use, and how.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-04, 08:01 PM

I'd like to see more halberds in fantasy fiction. And other polearms in general actually, they're actually really cool weapons in general.

Yes, this comes from me reworking my novel plan because I realised swords were too prominent. The eventual soldier viewpoint is now a halberdier, and possibly a woman, while if I add in a magic weapon it'll probably be a spear (at the moment there's no magic items planned, but one character gets a really nice sword). Then due to the fact that there's at best only one trained soldier present for something like 70% of the story I've made a note to start arming characters with axes, bows, and polearms.

It's also helped with worldbuilding, the royal guard are now explicitly halberdiers, which has helped with building an image of them (bright blue gambesons* paired with feathered hats and cloaks baring their personal or house seal). I had no clue what I was going to have them wear until deciding that. But deciding on one outfit has helped build a feel for this world, one relatively impoverished where cloth is seen everywhere and metal armour extremely rarely.

Which is great, because it works for a later plot element.

* Used because I didn't want them in breastplates and they don't appear as useful armour enough.

Peelee

2021-02-04, 08:27 PM

When did I ever claim it was required knowledge?

I didn't.

What I claimed is that the Hulk knows it by instinct and can instinctively use it to figure out how to do things, allowing him to do the things perfectly.

If you're trying to smash a tank from muscle memory and experience with how hard to punch, eventually you're gonna screw up and kill the people in the tank.

Hulk never will—due to instinctive mathematic powers, due to thinking in math and automatically quantifying the world in numbers without having to take measurements, he always knows the exact amount o force to use, and how.

Dude, you're claiming it's required knowledge in this very post. if Hulk won't ever do X because he has special knowledge and anyone else will do X some point because they don't have special knowledge, that's required knowledge. I frankly don't know how to explain it any simpler.

And I don't particularly care that some writer said "Hulk won't ever do that ever ever period" because another writer some day can say "oh whoops he did that what a twist!" They're comics, they can be fun and interesting and make cutting commentary on society and human nature but they're not sacred texts that are sources of narrative purity. Hulk will kill someone the second a writer decides that would make a good story, and then another writer will get upset and decide that was in Alternate Earth Times Infinity because welcome to decades-long syndicated stories where the points are made up and the rules don't matter.

If you want to get into comics minutiae with me, that's doomed to failure because I largely don't read comics, and I especially don't read non-Star Wars Marvel comics, so I will never have anyyhing to say on the in-universe comics side. I will only ever have something to say on the out-of-universe metaphorical sausage-making or how silly some aspects are because of how ridiculous the concept the author claims is. Superman lugging a bunch of planets chained together is ridiculous. Hulk thinking in numbers and instinctively knowing math for his punches is ridiculous. Because it doesn't work like that.

There are things I like which are ridiculous, and I've never spent a second trying to justify them because I don't need justification. I can acknowledge that it's ridiculous and still enjoy it. Someone else pointing out that, say, the Illinois Nazi car falling from above the Sears Tower after driving off a small bridge in the Blues Brothers is stupid does not ruin my enjoyment of that scene. I'll never try to argue that in that universe there is a half completed bridge with a shallow slope that for reasons unknown goes a mile into the airspace above Chicago and is also completely unobtrusive and invisible to the skyline, because I don't need to. I can just enjoy the movie by embracing that it's a ridiculous movie with ridiculous scenes that make no sense and are completely outlandish. If anyone else tries to argue that the bridge makes sense, I'll argue against them, because its ridiculous.

There's nothing wrong with a story or series being ridiculous if it's good and you enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with the Hulk doing whatever he does in his comics. All I'm saying is that, just like the bridge in the Blues Brothers making no sense, "thinking in numbers and doing instinctive math" makes no sense. That's alright. It's fine for it to make no sense. But if you want to go on a crusade to say how it totally makes sense, you're in for one hell of an uphill climb.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-04, 09:06 PM

LaZodiac

2021-02-04, 10:41 PM

Here's something that is comic related (good for frequent poster friends) but also not drenched in age old nonsense (good for people who don't read comics).

My beautiful, wonderful, all around best in the world girlfriend got me the entire Sandman series for my birthday. I'm nearly done volume 6 and this is truly excellent a series.

also I am shocked no one pounced on my dream as a topic of discussion. Guess I'm no longer as interesting as I once was, ah. The pains of being an Old, I suppose.

Peelee

2021-02-04, 10:50 PM

My beautiful, wonderful, all around best in the world girlfriend got me the entire Sandman series for my birthday. I'm nearly done volume 6 and this is truly excellent a series.

I am happy for every part of that!

Also, on a wholly irrelevant note, I may have gotten slightly addicted RealLifeLore's videos on geography affecting specific country's historical civilization progression.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-04, 10:52 PM

Probably because spears and halberds are formation weapons, and formations are rarely heroic.

Also because if the setting includes AoE magic you quickly learn why the squad sergeant tells you to never bunch up.

Bartmanhomer

2021-02-05, 12:08 AM

I play Patty Cake with a male hatchling gold dragon yesterday. It was fun and nostalgic. :smile:

LaZodiac

2021-02-05, 12:38 AM

I am happy for every part of that!

Also, on a wholly irrelevant note, I may have gotten slightly addicted RealLifeLore's videos on geography affecting specific country's historical civilization progression.

It's quite a wonderful gift. A Game Of You had a... rough ending, but like literally every time she ever shows up ever, Death made it better simply by existing and being the best of the Endless.

That sounds neat. What is Real Life Lore, exactly? I can make a guess, but I'm curious how you'd put it.

I play Patty Cake with a male hatchling gold dragon yesterday. It was fun and nostalgic. :smile:

I'm going to ask this, because I truly have to; do you mean in reality, or do you mean in DND? Because if it is the later, I don't think this is the place for that sort of story. Do go to the DND part of the forum they're sure to be interested!

factotum

2021-02-05, 02:03 AM

My beautiful, wonderful, all around best in the world girlfriend got me the entire Sandman series for my birthday. I'm nearly done volume 6 and this is truly excellent a series.

Sandman is absolutely fantastic, yes, and it maintains the quality right through to the final panel, which is rare in any medium, much less graphic novels/comic strips.

Lacco

2021-02-05, 02:31 AM

...I'm just gonna be frank and say that very time Marvel arguments and minutia discussion come up in this thread, my eyes glaze over. Especially since they very often go around and around in circles, for many many pages. Or are just about some overly pedantic thing. And... I feel like that's the same for a lot of people who aren't versed in all of that.

I can completely agree with this. I'm like "Hulk... Hulk... the green guy? The angry one? Does not kill anyone... huh. Okay, he's not so angry as he looks like."

And that's it. It would be more interesting if he could see the universe as ascii game.

I'd like to see more halberds in fantasy fiction. And other polearms in general actually, they're actually really cool weapons in general.

Swords were not only prominent but too expensive when compared against the halberds. Also, if you are going for armed soldiers, crossbows would make a bit more sense. The time it takes you to train a bowman is rather long - crossbows are easier.

Probably because spears and halberds are formation weapons, and formations are rarely heroic.

I'd agree with spears, but halberds are more "city" weapons, mostly because they give you the opportunity to swing, thrust, but also keep your distance. Closing distance against a halberd/spear is a bit complicated if the halberdier knows what they are doing. You don't want to get the point.

I play Patty Cake with a male hatchling gold dragon yesterday. It was fun and nostalgic. :smile:

Sounds like Dwarf Fortress description.

Is Bartmanhomer actually viewing universe as ascii?

Form

2021-02-05, 06:24 AM

I'm the same way. I don't know enough to get invested, and the arguments aren't heated enough for me to take a side.

Granted, I don't want this thread to go into freefall, but watching threads go down in flames in general can be entertaining.

I don't understand why those arguments sometimes get heated in the first place. From my perspective, when it happens they're always arguing over trivial and insignificant things. Sure, it can be a fun thought experiment to see which character would win in a fight or what a writer may or may not have intended or whatever, but to choose something like that as a hill do die on? It's ultimately just fiction and not really that important.

In those situations I'm inclined to think that there's actually something else that is making someone angry and the Marvel or DC comic argument is just the last straw that breaks the camel's back.

Rater202

2021-02-05, 06:37 AM

It's five in the morning, it's cold as all hell, and I don't currently have a heater.

I'm not in danger but it's inconvenient.

Bartmanhomer

2021-02-05, 07:40 AM

I'm going to ask this, because I truly have to; do you mean in reality, or do you mean in DND? Because if it is the later, I don't think this is the place for that sort of story. Do go to the DND part of the forum they're sure to be interested!
In reality. :biggrin:

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 11:11 AM

I'd agree with spears, but halberds are more "city" weapons, mostly because they give you the opportunity to swing, thrust, but also keep your distance. Closing distance against a halberd/spear is a bit complicated if the halberdier knows what they are doing. You don't want to get the point.

In European practice the point of the halberd is they required little training. The creation of professional pike companies ended the use of the halberd, as pikes are both better at defense against cavalry and had a much more devastating charge. Pikes require professional soldiers though, while halberds are comparatively bad at everything but easy to train.

One of the ironies of the transition from halberd-bowmen-knight in the 14th century to the pike-handgun-lancer of the sixteenth century is the dumping ground for untrained soldiers moved from the halberds to the gunmen, and the middle professionals went from bowmen to pikemen. The cavalry maintained their status as elites but became more fragile over time. There were battles were massive infantry armies lost to small armies of cavalry into the 1350s, but by 1500 that was over.

Bartmanhomer

2021-02-05, 11:31 AM

Sounds like Dwarf Fortress description.

Is Bartmanhomer actually viewing universe as ascii?

What's Dwarf Fortress and ASCII? :confused:

Fyraltari

2021-02-05, 11:40 AM

What's Dwarf Fortress and ASCII? :confused:

ASCII is the American Standard Code for Information Interchang, it's a norm attributing numbers to characters so that computers (who only understand number) can send messages to one another.

Dwarf fortress is a video game where the players build fortresses inhabited by dwarves and fill them with traps for funsies. It features an extremely detailed game world but instead of graphics uses only ASCII charcters (otherwise the amount of data would be impossible to manage on any affordable computer).

Rawhide

2021-02-05, 11:49 AM

but instead of graphics uses only ASCII charcters (otherwise the amount of data would be impossible to manage on any affordable computer).

Ummmmmmmm? (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/dwarf-fortress-premium-version)

Bartmanhomer

2021-02-05, 11:50 AM

ASCII is the American Standard Code for Information Interchang, it's a norm attributing numbers to characters so that computers (who only understand number) can send messages to one another.

Dwarf fortress is a video game where the players build fortresses inhabited by dwarves and fill them with traps for funsies. It features an extremely detailed game world but instead of graphics uses only ASCII charcters (otherwise the amount of data would be impossible to manage on any affordable computer).

Interesting. I might look into it. :smile:

Rater202

2021-02-05, 11:50 AM

My knowledge of dwarf fortress ii that it's the game where elves will sell you wooden products and then get mad at you for using wood.

And that large quantities of lava cover all sins.

Fyraltari

2021-02-05, 11:53 AM

Ummmmmmmm? (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/dwarf-fortress-premium-version)

I wasn't aware. Thanks.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-05, 12:07 PM

And that large quantities of lava cover all sins.

One of those truths of the universe that doesn't get acknowledged enough, IMHO.

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 12:12 PM

My knowledge of dwarf fortress ii that it's the game where elves will sell you wooden products and then get mad at you for using wood.They've gotten better about that, now they get mad at you for using wooden products that weren't made by elves.

Fyraltari

2021-02-05, 12:16 PM

They've gotten better about that, now they get mad at you for using wooden products that weren't made by elves.

Do they sell those as well?

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 12:17 PM

Do they sell those as well?

Surly not right?

Rater202

2021-02-05, 12:17 PM

One of those truths of the universe that doesn't get acknowledged enough, IMHO.

Honestly, the ability to control and generate magma would be another one of those powers that would be cool to have for just that reason.

Lava control. Earth control(which should include lava control, if you're powerful enough, but they're usually kept separate,) plant control, wind control, water/ice control, lightning generation, weather control(which is to say, the combination of specialized versions of the last couple but is usually separate.)

If I had to pick one it would be plant control, but the idea of being able to exert tangible control over a force of nature has a certain... appeal to it in general.

Control over things like gravity or the nuclear forces also has an appeal, but with the exception of electromagnetism, they don't really have the same primal, visceral appeal as making the grass beneath someone's feat explode into crushing vines or projectile vomiting a stream of white-hot molten earth, ya know.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 12:19 PM

Murder or assault with super powers is still a crime.

Rater202

2021-02-05, 12:28 PM

Murder or assault with super powers is still a crime.

In theory yes, but I'm not seeing a person with control over the primal forces of nature getting arrested.

Either you lay low and only use the power for party tricks and self-defense (or saving lives for some of them) and you get left alone as not worth it or you go drunk with power and probably get put down as a threat.

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 12:29 PM

Do they sell those as well?Yes, elf traders sell lots of elf-made wooden items (also surface crops). You can also trade elf-made wooden items to them, but they get horribly offended if you try to trade non-elf-made wooden items to them (the "they've gotten better about that" I mentioned; they used to be horribly offended trying to trade any wooden items to them, even if you had literally just bought it from the same trader a moment ago).

As I understand, elves manipulate the growth of trees into the form of finished items, and can tell the difference between that and traditional woodworking, which they view as an affront to the natural world...or something. I suppose taking a saw to a tree doesn't suggest much in the way of reverence.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 12:32 PM

In theory yes, but I'm not seeing a person with control over the primal forces of nature getting arrested.

Either you lay low and only use the power for party tricks and self-defense (or saving lives for some of them) and you get left alone as not worth it or you go drunk with power and it turns into a "nobody in the justice system is being paid enough for this, this is an armed forces problem."

Even self-defense is a hard sell in a lot of places. "I set the guy on fire for punching me" is pretty hard to justify. Imagine if we replaced super powers with "has an invisible gun" how does this look?

Rater202

2021-02-05, 12:39 PM

Even self-defense is a hard sell in a lot of places. "I set the guy on fire for punching me" is pretty hard to justify. Imagine if we replaced super powers with "has an invisible gun" how does this look?

The smartass answer would be to point out that they can't prove the existence of an invisible gun so you'd walk on all charges.

You're also going 0-100. "The man punched me so I demonstrated my ability to projectile vomit molten rock" or "the man brandished a knife so I made the grass turn into vines that held him in place long enough for me to walk away" are much more likely responses.

Someone who goes straight to setting the other guy on fire probably isn't going to wait for an excuse like "self-defense."

Peelee

2021-02-05, 12:46 PM

Everyone who mentioned ASCII, let this worst joke known to man be on your heads.

You know what they say... ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI.

Rawhide

2021-02-05, 12:48 PM

Everyone who mentioned ASCII, let this worst joke known to man be on your heads.

You know what they say... ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI.

I knew what the joke was before I opened it.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 12:50 PM

I knew what the joke was before I opened it.

The world of ASCII comedy should be explored more.

Rater202

2021-02-05, 12:56 PM

Everyone who mentioned ASCII, let this worst joke known to man be on your heads.

You know what they say... ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI.

I'm a simple man with simple enough desires.

ASCII a bad joke, I click.

(even though apparently the English pronunciation is az-key)

Peelee

2021-02-05, 12:59 PM

I'm a simple man with simple enough desires.

ASCII a bad joke, I click.

(even though apparently the English pronunciation is az-key)

I still like it!

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 01:02 PM

The world of ASCII comedy should be explored more.Perhaps it should.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 01:10 PM

Perhaps it should.

Sometimes people ask me, "how do you make any profit not remember a joke you've told before?" The answer is simple : volume

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 01:13 PM

Sometimes people ask me, "how do you make any profit not remember a joke you've told before?" The answer is simple : volume

Peelee is such a thief he even steals his own jokes. He should be aschumered of himself.

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 01:14 PM

Sometimes people ask me, "how do you make any profit not remember a joke you've told before?" The answer is simple : volumeI thought it was because you had a Star Wars droid you shared all your "comedy" material with, by exchanging cards back and forth. A you/TF-8 co-deck, if you will.

DataNinja

2021-02-05, 01:17 PM

The world of ASCII comedy should be explored more.
Ah, moving up from two bit comedy to eight bits. :smallwink:

Rawhide

2021-02-05, 01:19 PM

I thought it was because you had a Star Wars droid you shared all your "comedy" material with, by exchanging cards back and forth. A you/TF-8 co-deck, if you will.

Star Wars, you say? (http://asciimation.co.nz/)

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 01:19 PM

Ah, moving up from two bit comedy to eight bits. :smallwink:

Oh! Oh that is good.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-05, 01:27 PM

Ah, moving up from two bit comedy to eight bits. :smallwink:

That joke's worth a buck.

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 01:27 PM

Star Wars, you say? (http://asciimation.co.nz/)Hey, it's like those ASCII animations we had on the Atari XL like a third of a century ago!

Rater202

2021-02-05, 01:30 PM

Sometimes people ask me, "how do you make any profit not remember a joke you've told before?" The answer is simple : volume

Don't feel bad, I repeat myself all the time.

For example, I still believe that the tar Wars Holiday Special can't possibly be as bad as people say it is, considering the beautiful musical number with Beatrice Arthur exists because of it.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 01:33 PM

Don't feel bad, I repeat myself all the time.

For example, I still believe that the tar Wars Holiday Special can't possibly be as bad as people say it is, considering the beautiful musical number with Beatrice Arthur exists because of it.

Appreciate it!

And having seen that movie... Oh, it's bad. But if you can get past the first fifteen minutes then it's not too much different than a lot of other sci-fi at the time.

Rater202

2021-02-05, 01:48 PM

Appreciate it!

And having seen that movie... Oh, it's bad. But if you can get past the first fifteen minutes then it's not too much different than a lot of other sci-fi at the time.

I mean, yeah. From what I've heard and seen Bea Arthur was the only one who took it seriously, Mark Hamil looked like a monster due to the make-up needed to cover up the evidence that he'd been in a car accident, so on

Is it really that bad? I mean, maybe I'm biased becuase I think the prequels aren't as bad as other people say they are either, but... Come on. We get the introduction of Boba Fett, we get the musical number I've alluded to, and we have something to point to as an example of what happens when George Lucas is involved but not involved enough.

Edit: removing misremembered factoids.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-05, 02:13 PM

Probably because spears and halberds are formation weapons, and formations are rarely heroic.

Oh shush. That sounds like a sensible explanation. I've also been considering warstaves. Lots of big sticks clad in steel. Because practical.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-05, 02:22 PM

Oh shush. That sounds like a sensible explanation. I've also been considering warstaves. Lots of big sticks clad in steel. Because practical.
That sounds like it was be absolutely awful to watch and hear. Kudos!

I'm a little miffed that no media does shield walls well. Movies like 300 used twirly dance fights, Vikings did one real shield wall scene in the whole show.

Jasdoif

2021-02-05, 02:27 PM

Ah, moving up from two bit comedy to eight bits. :smallwink:ASCII only uses seven of the eight bits; that's why UTF-8 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8) can be completely compatible with ASCII while also supporting the other 140,000-ish characters currently available in Unicode.

Whether failing to use half of the potential available is representative of Peelee's comedy, is an exercise left to the reader.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 02:41 PM

I mean, yeah. From what I've heard and seen Bea Arthur was the only one who took it seriously, Mark Hamil looked like a monster due to the make-up needed to cover up the evidence that he'd been in a car accident, so on

Is it really that bad? I mean, maybe I'm biased becuase I think the prequels aren't as bad as other people say they are either, but... Come on. We get the introduction of Boba Fett, we get the musical number I've alluded to, and we have something to point to as an example of what happens when George Lucas is involved but not involved enough.

Edit: removing misremembered factoids.

In all honesty, it's just Super cheesy low-budget 70s sci-fi, and the only reason is seen as so incredibly bad is for 2 reasons:

1.) It fell so far short of the bar the original movie set for it just a year before, and
B.) The first 15-20 minutes or so.

Hammill's biggest issue appearance-wise was the haircut. Don't quote me on this but I don't think he got the scar until after Corvette Summer. But dude had a super '70s bowl cut and that made him look like a bad Luke Skywalker impersonator.

Fyraltari

2021-02-05, 03:00 PM

I mean, yeah. From what I've heard and seen Bea Arthur was the only one who took it seriously, Mark Hamil looked like a monster due to the make-up needed to cover up the evidence that he'd been in a car accident, so on

Is it really that bad? I mean, maybe I'm biased becuase I think the prequels aren't as bad as other people say they are either, but... Come on. We get the introduction of Boba Fett, we get the musical number I've alluded to, and we have something to point to as an example of what happens when George Lucas is involved but not involved enough.

Edit: removing misremembered factoids.

I haven't watched the thing, but I've seen enough reviews (including extracts) to know that there's an entire subplot/framing device of wookiee sitcom, which is entirely untranslated and unsubtitled. And it includes the grandfather watching a video of a sensual dancer in the middle of the kitchen. Also Carrie Fischer had taken so much coke that she alledgedly had no recollection of the whole thing.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 03:04 PM

wookie
Wookiee. 2 E's.

Also Carrie Fischer had taken so much coke that she alledgedly had no recollection of the whole thing.
And that would not surprise anyone who watched it.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-05, 03:08 PM

Or knew her history with substances.

Fyraltari

2021-02-05, 03:08 PM

Wookiee. 2 E's.
Force dammit.

And that would not surprise anyone who watched it.
Well, I had assumed it was an unforcely amount of weed.

Peelee

2021-02-05, 03:16 PM

Force dammit.

Well, I had assumed it was an unforcely amount of weed.

Fair.

Also,the untranslated Wookiee sitcom is indeed a thing, and is also the first 20 minutes or so, for the record.

DataNinja

2021-02-05, 03:19 PM

Wookie
Wookiee. Two E's. :smallwink:

Peelee

2021-02-05, 03:30 PM

Wookiee. Two E's. :smallwink:

Autocorrect, you have failed me for the last time.

Rater202

2021-02-05, 03:33 PM

Lacco

2021-02-05, 04:44 PM

You ever play that game where you take a line from star wars and replace a word with "pants?"

Things like "I find your lack of pants disturbing" are easy but honestly, I find the more obscure lines to be more amusing when so altered.

Honestly, some of them are just asking for it.

Like when Obi-Wan Kenobi said
“In my experience there is no such thing as pants.”?

Yeah. But we used to plqy it with different words. Still, pants is fun.

2D8HP

2021-02-05, 05:04 PM

Sometimes people ask me, "how do you make any profit not remember a joke you've told before?" The answer is simple : volume

That's okay, a year or three back a poster told a story on a thread, some months later, not quite word for word, he told the same story, on the same long lasting thread.
It happens.
Lately I've been saying some old memories are "clearer than yesterday", 'cause yesterday is kinda murky.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-05, 07:32 PM

Well, it's a good thing that I didn't resolve not to start more than one new Warhammer army this year, because I'm going to have 3 new ones by the end of March.

DataNinja

2021-02-05, 07:39 PM

Well, it's a good thing that I didn't resolve not to start more than one new Warhammer army this year, because I'm going to have 3 new ones by the end of March.

Ah, you need to not take your eyes off them, else they'll multiply. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2021-02-05, 07:48 PM

Ah, you need to not take your eyes off them, else they'll multiply. :smalltongue:

That would certainly make getting an entire chapter of Space marines (1,000) and eventually maybe an entire legion significantly easier.

Rockphed

2021-02-05, 10:17 PM

Rater202

2021-02-05, 10:56 PM

The daughters have met the son and are suitably enamored with their new sibling. Now if they would just go to sleep on time. I also wish they would easy proper meals, but that is a battle we loose mos than we win.

Well, that's what you get when you're a Barbarian Horde instead of a disciplined military regiment ain't it?

A while back, Lifetime had a 16-minute mini-movie wherein Mario Lopez played a young Harland Sanders(You know, The Colonel?) working as a private cook for a rich lady, having an affair with the rich lady's daughter, and surviving a kidnapping and attempted murder.

It's basically just an extended KFC commercial in the form of an English language telenovela and it does not take itself the least bit seriously.

I have no idea why Lifetime and KFC collaborated on this, but after it aired it was uploaded in its entirety to be legally watched on the Lifetime Youtube channel and it's fricking hilarious.

Sermil

2021-02-06, 12:59 AM

Appreciate it!

And having seen that movie... Oh, it's bad. But if you can get past the first fifteen minutes then it's not too much different than a lot of other sci-fi at the time.

But is it as weird as the Star Wars / Muppet crossover episode (https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Episode_417:_Star_Wars)?

Did you know that Mark Hamill is Luke Skywalker's cousin?

Form

2021-02-06, 04:15 AM

Like when Obi-Wan Kenobi said
“In my experience there is no such thing as pants.”?

Yeah. But we used to plqy it with different words. Still, pants is fun.

"... and that is why Obi-Wan Kenobi is a wanted man in over a dozen systems."

Rater202

2021-02-06, 04:37 AM

"... and that is why Obi-Wan Kenobi is a wanted man in over a dozen systems."

That and, you know, being part of an order of weirdos that indoctrinates children into behaviors that can really screw up those children in some cases.

Fun fact: A few years ago some psychologists for funzies watched all the prequels, took notes on Anakin's behavior, and diagnosed him with Borderline Personality Disorder, which is usually caused by trauma or abuse in childhood... And Anakin was not suffering from it as a slave-child on Tatooine, meaning he can only have gotten it after joining the Jedi Order.

And the prequels, as well as the Clone Wars, establish that Anakin was at the very least mismanaged and that there was a barrier in communication: Anakin went to Yoda with his concerns that someone he knew might die and there was nothing he could do to stop it, and Yoda told Anakin exactly what he needed to here... But not in a way that Anakin could understand.

Makes you wonder just how many fallen Jedi fell becuase the Order's policies in regard to training and teaching the philosophy of emotional control and detachment didn't work for that person so you just had someone who had no idea how to deal with their feelings keeping them all bottled up till something broke.

Lord Raziere

2021-02-06, 05:46 AM

Makes you wonder just how many fallen Jedi fell becuase the Order's policies in regard to training and teaching the philosophy of emotional control and detachment didn't work for that person so you just had someone who had no idea how to deal with their feelings keeping them all bottled up till something broke.

I mean that lines up with how I prefer to think of the Star Wars universe, which is influenced by the Kotor 1 & 2. the Jedi and the Sith are two philosophies who are way too reliant on the force to solve their problems. summed with the last lines of their codes:

Jedi: "There is no Death. There is the Force"
Sith: "The Force shall free me"

The Jedi use the Force's interconnected as a way to stop caring about people dying, using the Force as some higher order to appeal to. the Sith use the Force as tool for their power and break from everything they don't like. The latter code of course, results in nothing but self-destructive cycles of Sith rising and falling in sudden bursts whenever Jedi go through hard times, often triggered by some war that threatens the survival of the Republic, causing Jedi to experience wars horrors which even Jedi teachings can't seem to defend entirely against, which leads them to turning to the only other code they know of.

The Jedi themselves while more stable and long-lasting as an organization....well they either fall into the kind of people where the training works and they live to be old masters or it doesn't and they become young brittle imitations of those that teach with the old masters not really understanding why the student is having problems because they themselves never had these problems when they were young. such as Bastila who while good, clearly was just repeating much of the jedi teachings just because they were taught to her, not because they worked for her, since she admits she finds holding to the teachings difficult. basically whenever a Jedi tries to be unattached but becomes off as arrogant or negative, its a sure sign that its not working and that they're on the path to the Dark Side.

Kreia while the villain of Kotor 2 does make good points: a Jedi without the force is basically nothing. both orders pretty much ask you to throw your life away to become a forcer user full time, neither one allowing you a life outside of that, making one define themselves entirely by the Force. she points out that the Sith's philosophy only causes random needless cruelty and violence without direction or purpose. The Jedi's philosophy while noble can be twisted into making you become a hollow shell for the greater good (which is what the Jedi Council literally did to Revan: wiped his entire memory all on a gambit to hopefully trick him into finding his super-weapon to stop him. kinda sketch) and its clear this fail for some and make the Jedi who do live to be old masters overly cautious when action is needed.

On the other hand, Kreia argues that compassion is bad because people should fight their own battles and that by helping them your weakening them, not too sure about that particular bit of her philosophy. On one hand I can understand what is she is saying: if you say, solve something for someone that denies the opportunity to grow from solving it themselves and taking a step to being a capable person without you. but at the same time there are problems that you can't really solve without help and situations that are so unfair there is no way you get stronger from them. she advocates for a very grey, pragmatic and efficient approach to life, saying that you shouldn't rely too much on outside sources of power, that no one code is applicable to everything, and that not every battle is yours to fight..... the last of which would be great advice if I wasn't a hero going around changing things everywhere with the power to do something about this or that. I would've loved to see her and Jolee Bindo go at it philosophically, as he is the only jedi that advocated love as a good thing, didn't see the force choosing someone for a great destiny as all that special (he has a particular story as to why, that is kinda funny) and stayed light side despite being a "grey jedi" and a cantankerous old man. thing is they could met as they lived in the same time period, its almost a shame they never spoke to each other on screen.

Another flaw of her philosophy is that Kreia hates the Force of course, and thus wants it to die and no one knows what would happen to life if the Force died. She might've been setting the galaxy free from its fate-like influence. She might've been causing the galaxies death itself. We'll never know.

But Kotors 1 and 2 really do show how flawed both the Jedi and the Sith really are as philosophies. while the Jedi are better than Sith, they're not exactly the best they could be. And a lot of comes down to the fact that the Jedi are a bunch of monks living in a highly controlled existence that breaks down the moment the Jedi go fight in a war or experiences something they don't see coming. their stoic philosophy basically makes them stable and longer-lasting but brittle if you figure out the right way to pressure them.

But aside from that, concerning Anakin specifically, in hindsight freeing a slave from a desert planet only for the Jedi with a maverick nature who freed him to die while Anakin is recruited into an order with very little freedom in how you can act, where you must refer to your superiors as "master" thus constantly reminding him of his days as a slave while constantly telling him all feelings are bad, do as your told, all so he can fulfill a predefined role for the galaxy without any say in the matter, was a bad idea.

Form

2021-02-06, 06:53 AM

I mean that lines up with how I prefer to think of the Star Wars universe, which is influenced by the Kotor 1 & 2. the Jedi and the Sith are two philosophies who are way too reliant on the force to solve their problems. summed with the last lines of their codes:

Jedi: "There is no Death. There is the Force"
Sith: "The Force shall free me"

The Jedi use the Force's interconnected as a way to stop caring about people dying, using the Force as some higher order to appeal to. the Sith use the Force as tool for their power and break from everything they don't like. The latter code of course, results in nothing but self-destructive cycles of Sith rising and falling in sudden bursts whenever Jedi go through hard times, often triggered by some war that threatens the survival of the Republic, causing Jedi to experience wars horrors which even Jedi teachings can't seem to defend entirely against, which leads them to turning to the only other code they know of.

The Jedi themselves while more stable and long-lasting as an organization....well they either fall into the kind of people where the training works and they live to be old masters or it doesn't and they become young brittle imitations of those that teach with the old masters not really understanding why the student is having problems because they themselves never had these problems when they were young. such as Bastila who while good, clearly was just repeating much of the jedi teachings just because they were taught to her, not because they worked for her, since she admits she finds holding to the teachings difficult. basically whenever a Jedi tries to be unattached but becomes off as arrogant or negative, its a sure sign that its not working and that they're on the path to the Dark Side.

Kreia while the villain of Kotor 2 does make good points: a Jedi without the force is basically nothing. both orders pretty much ask you to throw your life away to become a forcer user full time, neither one allowing you a life outside of that, making one define themselves entirely by the Force. she points out that the Sith's philosophy only causes random needless cruelty and violence without direction or purpose. The Jedi's philosophy while noble can be twisted into making you become a hollow shell for the greater good (which is what the Jedi Council literally did to Revan: wiped his entire memory all on a gambit to hopefully trick him into finding his super-weapon to stop him. kinda sketch) and its clear this fail for some and make the Jedi who do live to be old masters overly cautious when action is needed.

On the other hand, Kreia argues that compassion is bad because people should fight their own battles and that by helping them your weakening them, not too sure about that particular bit of her philosophy. On one hand I can understand what is she is saying: if you say, solve something for someone that denies the opportunity to grow from solving it themselves and taking a step to being a capable person without you. but at the same time there are problems that you can't really solve without help and situations that are so unfair there is no way you get stronger from them. she advocates for a very grey, pragmatic and efficient approach to life, saying that you shouldn't rely too much on outside sources of power, that no one code is applicable to everything, and that not every battle is yours to fight..... the last of which would be great advice if I wasn't a hero going around changing things everywhere with the power to do something about this or that. I would've loved to see her and Jolee Bindo go at it philosophically, as he is the only jedi that advocated love as a good thing, didn't see the force choosing someone for a great destiny as all that special (he has a particular story as to why, that is kinda funny) and stayed light side despite being a "grey jedi" and a cantankerous old man. thing is they could met as they lived in the same time period, its almost a shame they never spoke to each other on screen.

Another flaw of her philosophy is that Kreia hates the Force of course, and thus wants it to die and no one knows what would happen to life if the Force died. She might've been setting the galaxy free from its fate-like influence. She might've been causing the galaxies death itself. We'll never know.

But Kotors 1 and 2 really do show how flawed both the Jedi and the Sith really are as philosophies. while the Jedi are better than Sith, they're not exactly the best they could be. And a lot of comes down to the fact that the Jedi are a bunch of monks living in a highly controlled existence that breaks down the moment the Jedi go fight in a war or experiences something they don't see coming. their stoic philosophy basically makes them stable and longer-lasting but brittle if you figure out the right way to pressure them.

But aside from that, concerning Anakin specifically, in hindsight freeing a slave from a desert planet only for the Jedi with a maverick nature who freed him to die while Anakin is recruited into an order with very little freedom in how you can act, where you must refer to your superiors as "master" thus constantly reminding him of his days as a slave while constantly telling him all feelings are bad, do as your told, all so he can fulfill a predefined role for the galaxy without any say in the matter, was a bad idea.

I do think the Jedi have a good point in promoting emotional detachment considering the power and responsibility they wield. I got the impression that often Jedi fall to the dark side as a result of extreme emotional distress and being poorly equipped to handle that and emotional detachment is meant as a safeguard against that. That, and Jedi are supposed to be impartial when solving disputes. But they do seem to forget that Jedi are still people and take the emotional detachment too far.

What I got from Kotor 2 is that the Jedi, whilst well meaning and largely a force for good, had also grown complacent, arrogant and detached from the larger world around them. Their detachment is reflected in their decision to sit out the Mandalorian wars as they seem more concerned with safeguarding their philosophy against some kind of nebulous threat from the dark side than with the fact that millions of people are dying in a brutal war and the republic is crumbling. Their arrogance is a well meaning sort of arrogance, i.e. they always think they know what is best. That arrogance is reflected in their apparent inability to consider that if they had gone to war and supported Revan, then maybe all those Jedi wouldn't have fallen to the dark side. You'd still have a lot of Jedi with PTSD, traumatized by the conflict of course, but at least they'd still have their order to fall back on for support.

The Jedi order would really benefit from having some psychologists and emotional counselors on staff.

I'm not really familiar with a lot of the other star wars materials, though, so maybe what I wrote doesn't line up with that. The above is just what I got from Kotor 1 and Kotor 2 specifically.

Rater202

2021-02-06, 07:44 AM

I mean that lines up with how I prefer to think of the Star Wars universe, which is influenced by the Kotor 1 & 2. the Jedi and the Sith are two philosophies who are way too reliant on the force to solve their problems. summed with the last lines of their codes:

Jedi: "There is no Death. There is the Force"
Sith: "The Force shall free me"

The Jedi use the Force's interconnected as a way to stop caring about people dying, using the Force as some higher order to appeal to. the Sith use the Force as tool for their power and break from everything they don't like. The latter code of course, results in nothing but self-destructive cycles of Sith rising and falling in sudden bursts whenever Jedi go through hard times, often triggered by some war that threatens the survival of the Republic, causing Jedi to experience wars horrors which even Jedi teachings can't seem to defend entirely against, which leads them to turning to the only other code they know of.

The Jedi themselves while more stable and long-lasting as an organization....well they either fall into the kind of people where the training works and they live to be old masters or it doesn't and they become young brittle imitations of those that teach with the old masters not really understanding why the student is having problems because they themselves never had these problems when they were young. such as Bastila who while good, clearly was just repeating much of the jedi teachings just because they were taught to her, not because they worked for her, since she admits she finds holding to the teachings difficult. basically whenever a Jedi tries to be unattached but becomes off as arrogant or negative, its a sure sign that its not working and that they're on the path to the Dark Side.

Kreia while the villain of Kotor 2 does make good points: a Jedi without the force is basically nothing. both orders pretty much ask you to throw your life away to become a forcer user full time, neither one allowing you a life outside of that, making one define themselves entirely by the Force. she points out that the Sith's philosophy only causes random needless cruelty and violence without direction or purpose. The Jedi's philosophy while noble can be twisted into making you become a hollow shell for the greater good (which is what the Jedi Council literally did to Revan: wiped his entire memory all on a gambit to hopefully trick him into finding his super-weapon to stop him. kinda sketch) and its clear this fail for some and make the Jedi who do live to be old masters overly cautious when action is needed.

On the other hand, Kreia argues that compassion is bad because people should fight their own battles and that by helping them your weakening them, not too sure about that particular bit of her philosophy. On one hand I can understand what is she is saying: if you say, solve something for someone that denies the opportunity to grow from solving it themselves and taking a step to being a capable person without you. but at the same time there are problems that you can't really solve without help and situations that are so unfair there is no way you get stronger from them. she advocates for a very grey, pragmatic and efficient approach to life, saying that you shouldn't rely too much on outside sources of power, that no one code is applicable to everything, and that not every battle is yours to fight..... the last of which would be great advice if I wasn't a hero going around changing things everywhere with the power to do something about this or that. I would've loved to see her and Jolee Bindo go at it philosophically, as he is the only jedi that advocated love as a good thing, didn't see the force choosing someone for a great destiny as all that special (he has a particular story as to why, that is kinda funny) and stayed light side despite being a "grey jedi" and a cantankerous old man. thing is they could met as they lived in the same time period, its almost a shame they never spoke to each other on screen.

Another flaw of her philosophy is that Kreia hates the Force of course, and thus wants it to die and no one knows what would happen to life if the Force died. She might've been setting the galaxy free from its fate-like influence. She might've been causing the galaxies death itself. We'll never know.

But Kotors 1 and 2 really do show how flawed both the Jedi and the Sith really are as philosophies. while the Jedi are better than Sith, they're not exactly the best they could be. And a lot of comes down to the fact that the Jedi are a bunch of monks living in a highly controlled existence that breaks down the moment the Jedi go fight in a war or experiences something they don't see coming. their stoic philosophy basically makes them stable and longer-lasting but brittle if you figure out the right way to pressure them.

But aside from that, concerning Anakin specifically, in hindsight freeing a slave from a desert planet only for the Jedi with a maverick nature who freed him to die while Anakin is recruited into an order with very little freedom in how you can act, where you must refer to your superiors as "master" thus constantly reminding him of his days as a slave while constantly telling him all feelings are bad, do as your told, all so he can fulfill a predefined role for the galaxy without any say in the matter, was a bad idea.

Yeah, the Jedi meant well and Anakin needed to be taught how to use the Force just so he was aware of the risks of misusing his power, and but... I think that Obi-0Wan tried, or good Lord dd he try, but I think Qui-Gon's approach would have been better for Anakin. Qui-Gon's not as hung up on the strict rules and Liam Neason fought hard for that single moment of Qui-Gon giving Shmi that one brief moment of positive human contact. Lucas said that's not how a Jedi would behave in that situation but Neason felt that it was needed and that it made sense with Qui-Gon's rogue nature.

A thing I want to do someday, I think I've mentioned this before, of Darth Imperius, the (apparently canonically Light Sider) Sith Inquisitor from The Old Republic ending up in the "modern" day of the franchise just because "They use the Dark Side but they're not Dark Siders. How?" would screw with people's heads.

But I think that Tatooine during the early part of Phantom Menace makes the best "insertion point" becuase "former slave who escaped from it by chance only to find themselves trapped by circumstances over and over again only for them outsmart and/or overpower their oppressors all while rapidly accumulating power and using it to help others whenever possible" might be a decent enough role model for the ridiculously powerful slave boy.

Imperius despite being a Sith and a member of the Dark Council is more of a Grey Jedi than a Sith in terms of what they believe and what they do: They Use Both Sides of the Force and, for some reason, can use the Dark Side safely. They follow a philosophy that's somewhere... In between the Sith's cultivation of Power for the sake of freedom and the Jedi's pursuit of peace, best explemefied on if they have a good relationship with Ashara without Ashara falling to the Darkside: She says that because of your tutelage, she finds herself balanced: She has inner peace, like the Jedi, but also feels free like the Sith.

Dialog with Asahara also clarified that Imperius knows the Jedi's code and has respect for it... But not the Jedi themselves. Becuase the Jedi in the time of the Old Republic put their own peace above peace for the Galaxy and seem to cast out anyone who wants to take a more active stance in the War between the Galactic Republic and the resurgent Sith Empire. The very fact that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were involved in an attempt to mediate a trade dispute in hopes of preventing war would give Imperius a good impression of "Modern Jedi."

The problem is more "how do I justify Imperius being there" and "do I really want to watch Phantom Menance again to make sure I get the details right?"

enderlord99

2021-02-06, 09:51 AM

My mother has a couple of dogs. They're very friendly; one of them frequently tries, and terrifyingly fails, to imitate a human smile when he gets excited.

That face he makes, combined with his simultaneous tendency to run up to people excitedly, means he might be good at scaring off burglars purely be accident (though I wouldn't count on it)

Cazero

2021-02-06, 10:48 AM

You ever play that game where you take a line from star wars and replace a word with "pants?"
Do, or do not. There is no pants.

I have a bad feeling about pants.

You are free to use any methods necessary, but I want them alive. No pants.

UNLIMITED PANTS !

These are not the pants you're looking for.

I'm afraid this battle pants will be fully operational when your friends arrive.

You are not selling pants.

Rater202

2021-02-06, 10:54 AM

Do, or do not. There is no pants.

I have a bad feeling about pants.

You are free to use any methods necessary, but I want them alive. No pants.

UNLIMITED PANTS !

These are not the pants you're looking for.

I'm afraid this battle pants will be fully operational when your friends arrive.

You are not selling pants.

From the scene with Jabba in the special edition of A New Hope: "Han my boy, you disappoint me. Why haven’t you paid me and why did you pants poor Greedo?"

There's another line from that same scene that just fits the game perfectly, but the altered context might make it a bit too blue for this forum.

sktarq

2021-02-06, 02:35 PM

A story about my work frustration....venting so hope you enjoy.

scene: Work Yesterday

Gets irate customer email demanding a small product be shipped IMMEDIATELY by NEXT DAY AIR to a location about 100 miles away. And regular delivery for the cheapest options usually gets anywhere within 250 miles by the next day anyway....

Save draft email about a container's customs declaration I'm working on because the word immediate gets my attention...especially at noon on a Friday.

Give them a call...to ask if they want Saturday delivery because the service they requested is next business day....which would be Monday....
Me: "So do you need this on Next Business Day, aka Monday, or Next Calendar Day, ya know Saturday?"
C: "Next Day"
Me: "Sir, Monday or Saturday, I'll waive an cost difference, just what do you need?"
C: "The Next Day"
Me: "Fine will there be someone to receive the package at the delivery location on Saturday?...it will probably be between 9 and noon"
C: "Yes, think so"
Me: "Can you make sure, these will need to be signed for?"
C: "I'll go check"
Me: "Great and can you confirm that they want Saturday delivery at the same time?"
C: "Sure"
I start reading UPS 2021 upgrade programs while I wait....
C: "Yes"
Me: "Er yes?, so you want it delivered Saturday and there will be someone and the (Thornberry-changed) address?"
C: "Yes"
Me: "Great...It will be shipped within the hour"
an lo the invoice was charged and materials shipped as per request.

Today
New Caller....turns out to be old callers boss...as best I can remember from about 10 minutes ago

NC: "So someone tried to deliver a package to (Thornberry) from you...why?"
Me: "Because we got an rush call to send you guys a shipment to that address...asked for next day air...what's the issue?"
NC: "Wait you guys are in (city 150 miles from him) why did they need next day air?"
Me: "Ask (C)? I asked if he needed it on Monday or today and he said today."
NC: "Why did you listen to him?!"
Me: "Er he's on your approved agent list? also what happened to the package?"
NC: "They should have just left it but they didn't...don't know why"
ME: "Because it is a high value package, beyond a couple thousand they still require a signature...was there nobody to sign for it?"
NC: "How would I know? the work site is closed on the weekends"
ME: "Well they should be trying again on Monday"
NC: "Can you resend it to arrive Monday?"
ME: "Errr no...UPS will try to deliver your package again on Monday...the same one they tried to this morning"
NC: "But I don't want that one (C) messed up the delivery, can't I get new ones?" (Note the items are fancy bits of cloth, wood, and metal....not exactly perishable items here)
Me: "I guess I could if you want to double your order...then both sets will arrive Monday"
NC: "But I want it tomorrow"
Me: "UPS doesn't deliver Sunday Sir"
NC: "You know what I mean!"
Me: "So do you want (X, Y, Z-his order) to arrive Monday?"
NC: "Yes and I only want to be charged once"
Me: "Certainly Sir, I'll arrange that for you...just make sure someone will be there on monday to sign for it"
NC: "Good , and Goodbye"

of course the package will have a second delivery attempt Monday anyway....so I have to do absolutely nothing. But now I see where (C) gets his nuttiness from.

venting here before going back to the customs declaration (because those are like doing taxes)

Rater202

2021-02-06, 02:41 PM

Stories like that make me fear for the state of the world.

They're far from the only thing that does, but it's on the list.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-06, 02:43 PM

Sounds like dealing with the customs is more fun than dealing with the customers.

Rater202

2021-02-06, 03:15 PM

Rockphed

2021-02-06, 03:32 PM

I can't remember the last time I ate applesauce.

I just heard the word applesauce on the TV and it occurred to me that it's been at least a year since I've eaten applesauce.

Anybody else ever have a moment like that?

I get force fed applesauce by my children on a regular basis. The primary culprit could pass as a blonde, straight haired Merida. In other news, babies make so many interesting smells.

Rater202

2021-02-06, 03:52 PM

In other news, babies make so many interesting smells.

Yeah, that's part of the reason I have no intent to have children.

It's mostly becuase I have no business taking care of an infant, no paternal instincts, and honestly with my family history of (sometimes severe)autism, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, allergies, and the like... Knowing what I know about my genes, it seems like it'd be cruel to roll the dice and deliberately risk inflicting that on someone, but it's partly the smells and messes.

If I ever change my mind about having children I'll be adopting for more or less the same reasons.

sktarq

2021-02-06, 04:07 PM

Sounds like dealing with the customs is more fun than dealing with the customers.

LMAO

yes. today yes lately it certainly has been. but I very much like your phrasing.

Rater202

2021-02-06, 04:43 PM

I've been binging "The SCIENCE..." whichis a series of videos published on youtube on both the Game Theorists and Shoddycast channels where a guy named Austin rants about the science(often in great detail and teaching the mathematical formulas used) behind various videogames before concluding if it was plausible or if it made no sense. All framed as a letter to the developers of the game.

I'm used to the more or less PG or lower videos on the Game Theory channel so when I watch the older ones on the Shoddycast channel and he's cussing like a sailor, it's quite jarring.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-06, 04:49 PM

Yeah, that's part of the reason I have no intent to have children.

It's mostly becuase I have no business taking care of an infant, no paternal instincts, and honestly with my family history of (sometimes severe)autism, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, allergies, and the like... Knowing what I know about my genes, it seems like it'd be cruel to roll the dice and deliberately risk inflicting that on someone, but it's partly the smells and messes.

If I ever change my mind about having children I'll be adopting for more or less the same reasons.

I have at least a handful of paternal instincts and a desire for kids someday, although for situational reason there's a good chance it'll be via adoption. On the other hand I'd be a terrible parent.

Poor hand-eye coordination is weird. I can build LEGO sets quickly, my record is roughly two hours to make the ISS*. But making one of the supercar(?) sets has reminded me that I just cannot put the stickers on straight (although I'm annoyed because while most of the details are stickers one piece has printing). Great car though, kind of wish it was the sort of thing you got at the end of a LEGO Advent Calander instead of a bunch of little things.

* I really want more real world space sets, but a lot of them are quite expensive.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-06, 10:58 PM

Peelee

2021-02-06, 11:04 PM

Iterations on a scene:

Han Solo: It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man. What's the cargo?

Ben Kenobi: Only passengers. Myself, the boy, two pants, [seriously] and no questions asked.

Han Solo: What is it, some kind of local pants?

Ben Kenobi: Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial pants.

Han Solo: Well that's the real trick, isn't it? And it's gonna cost you extra. Ten pants, all in advance.

Luke Skywalker: [shocked] Ten thousand!? We could almost buy our own pants for that!

Rater202

2021-02-07, 04:35 AM

I like strawberry cakes with strawberry frosting. It pisses off my brother because that means the cake is pink and "pink is for girls."

Strawberries in general are probably my favorite thing to eat, especially fresh... which is ironic because I'm technically allergic.

Used to break out in super nasty hives, but I kept sneaking them anyway and built up a tolerance to the allergen. Or something like that. (Do not try that at home!)

DataNinja

2021-02-07, 04:49 AM

"pink is for girls."

It is!

...and also for guys, and enbies, and everyone else (because goodness knows I couldn't list them all). :smalltongue:

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-07, 05:08 AM

I went a pink sundress, but my skin is too light to pull it off.

I'll see if I can get a nice purple one one I've lost some weight.

Rawhide

2021-02-07, 05:14 AM

There was this untangle game that people were playing and discussing on here. It's one of those ones where multiple lines connect straight between the dots, and you have to move the dots until no line crosses another.

Everyone in the thread was discussing all this rubbish about how to solve it with complex maths. I would just pick up a dot and go "that one feels like it should go over there".

P.S. The last level was EVIL.

That sounds hilarious, and quite fun

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it was a Flash game.

The best part about it though, is that I know no one actually solved it except me, because I kept saying that the last level was EVIL, and not a single person commented on the fact that the dots and all the lines were initially laid out on the last level to quite literally spell "EVIL".

Tvtyrant

2021-02-07, 11:49 AM

I went a pink sundress, but my skin is too light to pull it off.

I'll see if I can get a nice purple one one I've lost some weight.

That is what millennial pink was made for.

Rockphed

2021-02-07, 12:33 PM

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it was a Flash game.

The best part about it though, is that I know no one actually solved it except me, because I kept saying that the last level was EVIL, and not a single person commented on the fact that the dots and all the lines were initially laid out on the last level to quite literally spell "EVIL".

I think I remember the game you are talking about. I do remember something about evil.

And flash still works for me, so I don't know why everyone is freaking out about "flash is dead!!!1!one!!11!!eleven!!!" I get that adobe has decreed that it shall die, but I am fairly certain that they cannot unilaterally change the licensing. Nor can they make people remove it from their computers. And since they haven't provided an update in about 3 years it doesn't actually change anything on a practical level.

factotum

2021-02-07, 12:45 PM

DataNinja

2021-02-07, 12:54 PM

I went a pink sundress, but my skin is too light to pull it off.

I'll see if I can get a nice purple one one I've lost some weight.

Ooh, those both sound very nice. I approve. I need to get some more obnoxiously bright dresses sometime, but can't until the pandemic is over so I can try things on... :smallsigh:

Rawhide

2021-02-07, 01:03 PM

And flash still works for me, so I don't know why everyone is freaking out about "flash is dead!!!1!one!!11!!eleven!!!" I get that adobe has decreed that it shall die, but I am fairly certain that they cannot unilaterally change the licensing. Nor can they make people remove it from their computers. And since they haven't provided an update in about 3 years it doesn't actually change anything on a practical level.

The browser makers can make it so their browser won't run the Flash plug-in, though, which I'm pretty sure they did, so not sure how you're actually running Flash stuff now?

If you are a) running a very outdated browser and b) running a very outdated version of Flash, it will still work. Don't, however.

You can also download the swf file and run it locally. That's a much safer option.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 01:03 PM

Is it bad that if it turned out that vampires were real my first instinct would be to try and figure out the science and mechanics behind their condition to see if there was a way to replicate the "infectious immortality" part without the downsides and ten markets the results if deemed acceptable, as a miracle drug?

Fyraltari

2021-02-07, 01:09 PM

Is it bad that if it turned out that vampires were real my first instinct would be to try and figure out the science and mechanics behind their condition to see if there was a way to replicate the "infectious immortality" part without the downsides
No.

and ten markets the results if deemed acceptable, as a miracle drug?
Yes. At this point you are holding people's lives hostage.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 01:20 PM

Yes. At this point you are holding people's lives hostage.

No, holding people's lives hostage would be if I had the means to kill most of the population and was blackmailing people into paying me to not use it.

Nobody is inherently entitled to my hypothetical vampire derived "makes you immortal" drug, except for anyone involved in the creation and manufacturing becuase, you know, they helped make it and are thus entitled to the fruits of their labor.

Furthermore patenting and marketing the drug would guarantee that I have a degree of control over the distribution: People could still steal it of course, but if I'm the only one who can legally make and distribute it, that means I can make sure it gets where it needs to go.

Fyraltari

2021-02-07, 01:35 PM

No, holding people's lives hostage would be if I had the means to kill most of the population and was blackmailing people into paying me to not use it. Nobody is inherently entitled to my hypothetical vampire derived "makes you immortal" drug
If somebody was hanging off a cliff and you could pull them up back to safety but would only do so once they have promised to give you money in exchange, would that not be holding their lives hostage? And if so why are they entitled to your help saving their lives in the second hypothetical but not the first?

Furthermore patenting and marketing the drug would guarantee that I have a degree of control over the distribution: People could still steal it of course, but if I'm the only one who can legally make and distribute it, that means I can make sure it gets where it needs to go.
What would be the places it doesn't need to go?

Rockphed

2021-02-07, 01:42 PM

If you are a) running a very outdated browser and b) running a very outdated version of Flash, it will still work. Don't, however.

You can also download the swf file and run it locally. That's a much safer option.

I am running up-to-date waterfox and flash works. I have to manually allow it on a page, which can be a problem. I am fairly certain I am running the most recent version of Flash (which is like 3 years old).

Is it bad that if it turned out that vampires were real my first instinct would be to try and figure out the science and mechanics behind their condition to see if there was a way to replicate the "infectious immortality" part without the downsides and ten markets the results if deemed acceptable, as a miracle drug?

It depends on your methods for both studying their condition and for developing a drug based off it. If you determine that you need to boil down the blended remains of 100 vampires to get enough drug to add 1 extra year to someone's life, then it probably is evil to make. If you study vampirism by throwing people you abducted off the street into cages with vampires, then you are probably evil.

Jasdoif

2021-02-07, 01:46 PM

And if so why are they entitled to your help saving their lives in the second hypothetical but not the first?Depends how costly it is to produce the drug, frankly. If saving one person leaves you unable to save any other people, it's no longer a simple scenario....

I am running up-to-date waterfox and flash works. I have to manually allow it on a page, which can be a problem. I am fairly certain I am running the most recent version of Flash (which is like 3 years old).Running Waterfox myself, I assure you Flash has had numerous updates over the past three years.

Peelee

2021-02-07, 02:11 PM

I like strawberry cakes with strawberry frosting. It pisses off my brother because that means the cake is pink and "pink is for girls."
My wife is half Korean. We went to Korea shortly before getting married, visiting her family (who are all awesome). They even got me a hanbok, the traditional Korean dress. Mine is largely pink with a good bit of purple. It looks amazing.

Just in case you want your brother to know that a man wearing a men's hanbok completely rocks it in pink.:smallwink:

Depends how costly it is to produce the drug, frankly.

Does it? In terms of pure monetary cost, any amount would be offset by the lifetime earnings of someone who gained immortality.

Frankly, that is only one reason why immortality would completely destroy the entire society we have and would eventually reshape it into something probably unrecognizable, along with completely reshaping moral values as well. It's probably just as well that we don't suddenly gain access to it.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 02:15 PM

If somebody was hanging off a cliff and you could pull them up back to safety but would only do so once they have promised to give you money in exchange, would that not be holding their lives hostage? And if so why are they entitled to your help saving their lives in the second hypothetical but not the first?

No, it would just be being an asshat.

Here's a brief sociology lesson: You're considered a good person for saving the life of someone in that situationbecause not acting is the default. Otherwise, people who go above and beyond to save lives wouldn't be referred to as going "above and beyond." If helping was the default, they'd just be doing their job.

At worst, not saving someone if you are capable of doing so without undue cost is deviant behavior.

Unless I personally am responsible for the person falling, I am not obligated to help the person. It's not my fault they fell.

I would, becuase I am capable of basic empathy and presumably it costs nothing to save this person... But it's a bit more complicated.

It's not my fault, for example, that people get sick or die of old age. I am not obligated to make people immortal if I figure out how.

I would want to but making a drug isn't like pulling someone up off the cliff. Drugs require ingredients. They take time to manufacture, and manufacturing them would require me to either buy or lease space suitable for the construction of a laboratory. And manufacturing them on a large scale would require a hell of a lot of people who all know what they're doing.

So I'm paying for ingredients, either rent or utilities, and labor—expensive labor, becuase pharmacology degrees aren't exactly cheap.

Then there's extensive testing to prove that it's safe.

If I'm giving it away for free, eventually I'm not gonna be able to manufacture any more.

At bare minimum, I need to be selling it at cost.
What would be the places it doesn't need to go?Wrong question.

It needs to go everywhere, but the poor, sick, and dying need it a lot more than a rich lady who wants to take a few years off without going under the knife.

If I'm the sole individual in charge of manufacture and distribution, I can make sure it's being sold and distributed in a way that the people who need it get first dibs.

I mean, I suppose I could also dump large quantities of it in the water, but I'd still need to be able to cover the costs of manufacturing it and I'd probably be arrested before I reached worldwide distribution becuase most places don't take kindly to dumping strange drugs in the water supply.

Jasdoif

2021-02-07, 02:25 PM

Does it? In terms of pure monetary cost, any amount would be offset by the lifetime earnings of someone who gained immortality.Only if the process is advanced to the degree that all source materials are readily producible, without which viewing "cost" purely in turns of "money" is inadequate (off the top of my head, odds are high the number of available vampires is a limiting factor on how quickly some key components can be produced)....And even then, you're looking at it wrong: the recipient gets to continue producing wealth past the point where they'd have otherwise died. There isn't a guaranteed increase in earning over time until that point; and the producer of the drug isn't getting future earnings immediately, in the rather unlikely event they get them at all.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-07, 02:44 PM

Unless you get eternal youth and wolverine regeneration, immortality is a blight.

I dislocated my shoulder in judo at 20, it has never been the same. I burned my eyes with acid at 27, I still take drops 8 times a day. I was in two car accidents, neither my fault. My neck is kinked slightly to the side and I have to stretch it daily. I tore a quad this year mt biking, that knee hurts all the time now. Ignoring skin and lung cancer, just every day accidents are inevitable. Eventually the immortal will be a dependent on society after becoming too injured to function, but FOREVER.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 02:51 PM

Just in case you want your brother to know that a man wearing a men's hanbok completely rocks it in pink.:smallwink:
It's not worth it to argue with him. I don't think he's capable of realizing that other people's opinions canbe valid or that he can be wrong.

Unless you get eternal youth and wolverine regeneration, immortality is a blight.

I dislocated my shoulder in judo at 20, it has never been the same. I burned my eyes with acid at 27, I still take drops 8 times a day. I was in two car accidents, neither my fault. My neck is kinked slightly to the side and I have to stretch it daily. I tore a quad this year mt biking, that knee hurts all the time now. Ignoring skin and lung cancer, just every day accidents are inevitable. Eventually the immortal will be a dependent on society after becoming too injured to function, but FOREVER.

Considering we're talking about immortality deliberately derived from vampires, I think it can be assumed that it's not worse than not being immortal: A drug that's worse than what it cures isn't going to sell and nobody would covet immortality f the only way to get it sucked.

factotum

2021-02-07, 02:53 PM

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-07, 02:55 PM

Ooh, those both sound very nice. I approve. I need to get some more obnoxiously bright dresses sometime, but can't until the pandemic is over so I can try things on... :smallsigh:

I have some self confidence issues to do with my weight as well, but hopefully I'll have shed some by summer.

But yeah, I'd love to get a royal purple or deep pink dress, ideally paired with a dark summer jacket. But again, both weight and the current lockdown are getting in the way.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 03:00 PM

The other problem with immortality is overpopulation. If people aren't dying anymore, but children are still being born--well, it should be obvious how that's going to be an issue. So, one would realistically have to severely limit the ability of immortals to have children. A world where everyone is immortal is a world without children, and I think that's a bit sad.

Actually, that's not strictly true.

Studies have shown that as the quality of life and average life expectancy increase, birth rates go down excepting certain outliers.

Furthermore, as is there's enough good being produced on the plant to feed everyone and methods of producing and storing food are only getting more efficient over time.

The reason people go hungry are mostly a bunch of complicated factors, most of which I don't think we're allowed to talk about here.

Peelee

2021-02-07, 03:34 PM

Actually, that's not strictly true.

Studies have shown that as the quality of life and average life expectancy increase, birth rates go down excepting certain outliers.
Why would you expect quality of life to go up necessarily?

Rater202

2021-02-07, 04:01 PM

Why would you expect quality of life to go up necessarily?Okay, let me cite an example from fiction.

Back longer ago than I care to think about, Jacke chan produced a cartoon where a fictionalized, archaeologist version of himself was recruited by a top-secret division of Interpol to help find and protect artifacts and antiquities from an international crime syndicate, which Jackie does with the help of a composite of several of the real Chan' nieces and nephews and a completly fictional elderly uncle who is later established to be a wizard.

The first seasons involves the hunt to collect the Talisman's of Shendu, a set of twelve stone amulets modeled on the 12 Noble Animals who make up th signs of the Chinese zodiac that each bestows onto the wielder a single supernatural power. The Ox mask you strong, the rooster lets you levitate, the pig lets you shoot concentrated beams of light and heat out of your eyes. etc.

Throughout the first season, there are occasional allusions to the fact that Jackie's fiction Uncle, Uncle, is very old and is nearing the end of his life—one of his first-ever lines of dialog is to claim that he'll drop dead without regular consumption of coffee. "Caffeine is the only thing keeping Uncle's ancient heart beating. You want dead Uncle? No? Then you must make coffee!"

This comes to a head late in the season when it breaks down that the reason he's so grumpy and grouchy is becuase he's old, or rather, becuase of what being old means. He can't eat cheese anymore becuase it gums up the plumbing. His vision and hearing are going. After spending years of his life studying martial arts, and magic, and Chinese opera, and all kinds of other things that require you to be in good shape and very spry and agile, his joints are too stiff and he's too slow to do any of it. Everything hurts. He doesn't have the energy he had when he was in his prime, and all too soon he's going to take his final breath. When he admits this, he sounds genuinely depressed.

In this episode, he identifies the power of the Dog Talisman: The Dog Talisman is man's best friend, becuase it arrests the process of aging, prevents you from being killed or maimed, it compensates for the flaws of your body, and continuously replenishes youthful and vital energies. It does everything short of putting the plastic back in your skin and the color back in your hair.

In short, it's near-perfect Immortality.

Uncle cannot resist the temptation to use the Talisman's power for himself.

Immediate he's much happier than normal just becuase his worn-out joints aren't constantly aching. (He also remembers what it was like to be a child and is thus better able to related to his young great-niece, but that's a bit beside the point.)

A drug that makes you "immortal" if only in a "you won't get any older and you'll be in good health until something kills you" would improve the average quality of life becuase it would either prevent or drastically slow down the accumulation of all of the little problems that really add up when you get to be a certain age and make being old Super not fun.

Peelee

2021-02-07, 04:17 PM

Okay, let me cite an example from fiction.

Back longer ago than I care to think about, Jacke chan produced a cartoon where a fictionalized, archaeologist version of himself was recruited by a top-secret division of Interpol to help find and protect artifacts and antiquities from an international crime syndicate, which Jackie does with the help of a composite of several of the real Chan' nieces and nephews and a completly fictional elderly uncle who is later established to be a wizard.

The first seasons involves the hunt to collect the Talisman's of Shendu, a set of twelve stone amulets modeled on the 12 Noble Animals who make up th signs of the Chinese zodiac that each bestows onto the wielder a single supernatural power. The Ox mask you strong, the rooster lets you levitate, the pig lets you shoot concentrated beams of light and heat out of your eyes. etc.

Throughout the first season, there are occasional allusions to the fact that Jackie's fiction Uncle, Uncle, is very old and is nearing the end of his life—one of his first-ever lines of dialog is to claim that he'll drop dead without regular consumption of coffee. "Caffeine is the only thing keeping Uncle's ancient heart beating. You want dead Uncle? No? Then you must make coffee!"

This comes to a head late in the season when it breaks down that the reason he's so grumpy and grouchy is becuase he's old, or rather, becuase of what being old means. He can't eat cheese anymore becuase it gums up the plumbing. His vision and hearing are going. After spending years of his life studying martial arts, and magic, and Chinese opera, and all kinds of other things that require you to be in good shape and very spry and agile, his joints are too stiff and he's too slow to do any of it. Everything hurts. He doesn't have the energy he had when he was in his prime, and all too soon he's going to take his final breath. When he admits this, he sounds genuinely depressed.

In this episode, he identifies the power of the Dog Talisman: The Dog Talisman is man's best friend, becuase it arrests the process of aging, prevents you from being killed or maimed, it compensates for the flaws of your body, and continuously replenishes youthful and vital energies. It does everything short of putting the plastic back in your skin and the color back in your hair.

In short, it's near-perfect Immortality.

Uncle cannot resist the temptation to use the Talisman's power for himself.

Immediate he's much happier than normal just becuase his worn-out joints aren't constantly aching. (He also remembers what it was like to be a child and is thus better able to related to his young great-niece, but that's a bit beside the point.)

A drug that makes you "immortal" if only in a "you won't get any older and you'll be in good health until something kills you" would improve the average quality of life becuase it would either prevent or drastically slow down the accumulation of all of the little problems that really add up when you get to be a certain age and make being old Super not fun.

You're assuming a lot of things about this drug. Immortality in general does not in any way indicate good health, just as it doesn't indicate eternal youth. Joints can still ache, colds can still be caught, age still comes up. And even if we do assume some sort of perfect health granted in addition to the immortality, perfectly healthy people can still have less-than-ideal lives. Poverty doesn't magically go away, squalid conditions don't suddenly become clean, and competition is even more stiff.

There's no reason whatsoever to assume that immortality will necessarily lead to quality of life improvements.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 04:34 PM

You're assuming a lot of things about this drug. Immortality in general does not in any way indicate good health, just as it doesn't indicate eternal youth. Joints can still ache, colds can still be caught, age still comes up. And even if we do assume some sort of perfect health granted in addition to the immortality, perfectly healthy people can still have less-than-ideal lives. Poverty doesn't magically go away, squalid conditions don't suddenly become clean, and competition is even more stiff.

There's no reason whatsoever to assume that immortality will necessarily lead to quality of life improvements.

Considering that the conceit of this discussion is "is it bad that if vampires were real I'd want to try ad retro engineer vampirism's benefits while minimizing downsides and if successful market the results as a miracle drug" and vampires typically do not age or suffer the consequences of already accumulated age, I feel comfortable in making that assumption.

"I now have all the time in the world and don't have to worry about my body breaking down before I can do what I want" inherently removes a great deal of stress, just as the negation of Senescence removes stress by removing unnecessary pain and progressively increased difficulty in physical tasks.

People who are less stressed sleep better, are less likely to get sick, recover more easily when they do get sick, and are less likely to suffer from depression, and are in general happier. All of which, incidentally, leads to further reduction of stress so there's a feedback loop here, and also greater productivity While it wouldn't happen to everyone, at least some people would find themselves in a much better position as a delayed effect of taking the drug.

It might be a very slight increase in individual quality of life, but distribute the drug wide enough and the small individual increase is still going to skew the average quality of life upward.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-07, 05:02 PM

I agree with Rater about perfect health being a quality of life thing to be honest. I would much rather stay young and healthy and drop dead at 80 then live to 90 but age naturally.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-07, 05:14 PM

I agree with Rater about perfect health being a quality of life thing to be honest. I would much rather stay young and healthy and drop dead at 80 then live to 90 but age naturally.

Very much agreed with this.

Rater202

2021-02-07, 05:18 PM

I agree with Rater about perfect health being a quality of life thing to be honest. I would much rather stay young and healthy and drop dead at 80 then live to 90 but age naturally.

Yeah, that's the next best thing to genuine immortality I think.

Like, humans can theoretically make it to 120ish, so let's say we keep the "peak at 25-30" and then just leave people in their prime until 120 and then they check out in their sleep sometime in the next 5-10 years after that? Much better than the current system of aging.

Peelee

2021-02-07, 07:45 PM

Considering that the conceit of this discussion is "is it bad that if vampires were real I'd want to try ad retro engineer vampirism's benefits while minimizing downsides and if successful market the results as a miracle drug" and vampires typically do not age or suffer the consequences of already accumulated age, I feel comfortable in making that assumption.

That's an excellent point. I retract my objection.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-07, 08:02 PM

Peelee

2021-02-07, 08:10 PM

Jasdoif

2021-02-07, 08:42 PM

At some point I want to sit down and write a Star Wars fanfic where the original (new canon) Sith are just wandering warrior-mystics seeking to learn and train. But I don't know enough about Star Wars to properly fit it into the universe.

Like, going by the Legends timeline this would likely be a pre-Old Republic era, as distant to that time as that era is to Palpatine's Empire, so I wouldn't have to worry about characterisation, but I have a feeling that I'd get three chapters in and get a thousand comments thing me that I've done a bad one because I've forgotten that the book Vestiges of the Wookieees that's a follow-up to episode 17 of the fourth series of the Clone Wars cartoon establishes that the planet Flarwaffen was only settled eighteen years and five months after the Battle of Yavin or something.By current Canon, you're pretty set, actually. Not much to worry about on that front yet.I wouldn't say it's worth worrying about in general, particularly with as mutable as Star Wars' canon has been over the decades. Anyone who's going to raise a point over something so obscure had already decided not to like what you were writing before they even started reading, you couldn't have satisfied them with the extra minutia anyway. Especially since The Box was centered around a convoluted competitive evaluation for a job, administered to bounty hunters and a disguised Obi-Wan.

Rawhide

2021-02-07, 09:03 PM

I am running up-to-date waterfox and flash works. I have to manually allow it on a page, which can be a problem. I am fairly certain I am running the most recent version of Flash (which is like 3 years old).

Yeah, uhm, no. Flash has had about 45 updates in the last 3 years. Most of them security fixes. Many of them in the last year.

enderlord99

2021-02-07, 09:18 PM

Especially since The Box was centered around a convoluted competitive evaluation for a job, administered to bounty hunters and a disguised Obi-Wan.

Is that episode 17 of the fourth series of the Clone Wars cartoon? I'm just guessing.

Peelee

2021-02-07, 09:25 PM

Yeah, uhm, no. Flash has had about 45 updates in the last 3 years. Most of them security fixes. Many of them in the last year.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-17-2015/qwrkcF.gif

factotum

2021-02-08, 02:30 AM

I agree with Rater about perfect health being a quality of life thing to be honest. I would much rather stay young and healthy and drop dead at 80 then live to 90 but age naturally.

It happens earlier, but that sounds like "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley--people stay pretty much youthful and vigorous into their 60s, then decline very sharply and die over the course of a few months to a year.

Somensjev

2021-02-08, 03:53 AM

Been a fair while since I've posted on the forums, mostly been lurking for the past however long

I've moved house since the last time I posted, so that's nice. How has everyone been?

Also, posting from phone, so formating might be weird

Rater202

2021-02-08, 03:56 AM

A common trope in fanfiction and original web fiction is the concept of "Soulmate Alternate universes" where everyone in the world has one soul mate that they're destined to meet and fall in love with.

Ignoring that these stories are usually about as romantic as Twilight of 50 Sades and, in fanfiction, usually exist to pair up characters who have no business being in a romantic relationship in the canon, that's just kind of an existential hellhole, yeah?

Free will objectively doesn't exist in those worlds.

And then, of course, there are all the variations of the concept: "If your soul mate is mad at you, you feel physical agony." "You feel everything your soul mate does." That just sounds like... Like it's very easy for toxic people to get away with being toxic.

My personal "favorites" are the ones where everyone is born with a scar or tattoo on their arm or hand with the first thing their soulmate will ever say to them written out. In stories it's always something like "you have beautiful eyes" or something romantic, but...

I mean, statistically, it's going to be "hey" or "move it" or "I'll take the number 4 with a large Pepsi." Half the planet is going to have "Welcome to *Fast Food Restaurant,* can I take your order" tattooed to their arms.

Lacco

2021-02-08, 04:21 AM

My personal "favorites" are the ones where everyone is born with a scar or tattoo on their arm or hand with the first thing their soulmate will ever say to them written out. In stories it's always something like "you have beautiful eyes" or something romantic, but...

I mean, statistically, it's going to be "hey" or "move it" or "I'll take the number 4 with a large Pepsi." Half the planet is going to have "Welcome to *Fast Food Restaurant,* can I take your order" tattooed to their arms.

Yeah, wouldn't want to be the guy that meets his soulmate during a minor car crash. Wouldn't want to have "Hey, [instert favourite expletive]! Where were you looking at?" tatooed on my arm.

Interestingly, it would make meeting my soulmate much harder. My wife would have "Yeah, theoretically I am." tatooed on her arm - which doesn't really help. I'd be worse off. We met through a common friend at university and the first thing she said to me was "Hi, are you the guy who knows how to calculate turning moment of a crankshaft?". It was quite a common question, around 20 people asked me the same and only around 60% of them were girls.

As far as signs go, I'd prefer the ominous sound of thunder complemented by a flock of crows or something like that.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-08, 05:49 AM

A common trope in fanfiction and original web fiction is the concept of "Soulmate Alternate universes" where everyone in the world has one soul mate that they're destined to meet and fall in love with.

Just one soulmate? This sounds problematic. Like, what does this mean for those who just aren't monogamous?

Also how do you tell who your soulmate is? And surely they're randomly distributed, at which point even if they're within half a decade of your age the chances of finding them are so minute that the soulmate phenomenon isn't widely believed in, and the end result is a world that doesn't look that much different. Accept that in this world Ed and Roy share a bunk and love in fear of being court martialed for it.

To anybody who hasn't read it, I recommend Randall Monroe's exploration of soulmates (https://what-if.xkcd.com/9/). It is legitimately looking at a distribution that causes most of these problems, but most people talking about soulmates don't bother to stick additional requirements on.

....
I'd have 9.99999 hundred thousand other possible loves
Statistically some of them would be statistically nice

My personal "favorites" are the ones where everyone is born with a scar or tattoo on their arm or hand with the first thing their soulmate will ever say to them written out. In stories it's always something like "you have beautiful eyes" or something romantic, but...

I mean, statistically, it's going to be "hey" or "move it" or "I'll take the number 4 with a large Pepsi." Half the planet is going to have "Welcome to *Fast Food Restaurant,* can I take your order" tattooed to their arms.

How would it deal with internet messages? Would I have a string of binary on my wrist?

Or if multiple soulmates are allowed I'd have multiple strings of binary?

01001001 00100111 01100100 00100000 01100010 01100101 00100000 01100010 01110101 01101100 01101100 01101001 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110010 01100100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110011 01110101 01100011 01101000 00100000 01110100 01100101 01111000 01110100 00100000 01100001 01110011 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01110011 01101111 01110101 01101100 01101101 01100001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01110011 01100011 01100001 01110010 01111001 00101110

Lacco

2021-02-08, 07:14 AM

Just one soulmate?

Ah, soulmates. I'm quite skeptical about the concept myself - oftentimes I think the romantic love that people so much seek just creates trouble in relationships and people who approach relationships not wearing "pink glasses" get much longer, even more romantic relationships, and - often - long-term marriage.

When I met my wife, I never thought she's my soulmate. I liked her voice, liked her smile, terribly enjoyed being with her and we could talk for hours on without any stops. She was also one of the few that really enjoyed my weird sense of humor. There were ladies in my past that I was enamored with much more than when we started dating - but this relationship lasted. No "big love", no "oh my god, I'd die without her"... but after those years? I don't know how would I enjoy life without her anymore.

I think there are people that enjoy being together, are compatible enough to be able to understand each other while being sufficiently different to enjoy the challenge. It takes work to build "love" - but not the "crazy stupid" one, but the long-lasting one. As my mother once said: "It's not enough to to love someone to be happy with them. You need to understand them - because when you truly understand them, you will love them."

For polyamory: good luck. I have enough trouble keeping one person romantically happy - if you can manage multiple, good for you! Just be sure it makes you happy.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 07:54 AM

Just one soulmate? This sounds problematic. Like, what does this mean for those who just aren't monogamous?
Yeah, the people who write these things tend to buy far too heavily into the "one true love" trope.

And there's a reason why I compare a lot of these stories to 50 shades and Twilight.

Lord Raziere

2021-02-08, 09:09 AM

Rater202

2021-02-08, 09:49 AM

....And in this exhibit we see such outdated concepts of romance like "soulmate" next to "love potion" and "love at first sight". Continuing on our tour of the Love Museum we shall examine the exhibit on Knights in Shining Armor and Chivalric Romance.....

Love Museum: We display what love isn't and never was!

Yeah. The romantic ideal simply isn't realistic.

Considering that the traditional western marriage was essentially an exchange of chattel, part of me wants to be a cynical jackass and say that the ideal was manufactured as a narrative to convince women to be okay with effectively being property or make them think that they're the one that's wrong if they're not okay with it.

Lacco

2021-02-08, 10:35 AM

Yeah. The romantic ideal simply isn't realistic.

I'd say it's highly improbable (I have known people that fulfill most of the requirements for "soulmates" or "one true love" - not saying they did not work hard to achieve that status) and the society is moving towards alternatives, some of which may or may not be rather destructive for the people involved.

It's rather sad that love seems to have become a battlefield of ideologies. It's one of those things you don't really enjoy even if you are just standing on the sidelines and commenting on it.

part of me wants to be a cynical jackass

Don't be.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 10:56 AM

Part of me wishes I was better at memorizing formulas and complex equations: I was good at algebra and geometry in high school but then I got to college and that was a huge leap.

Part of this is becuase my original "plan" was to join a pharmacology program so I could go into research into cancer drugs and my inability to do stoichiometry off the top of my head prevented me from being able to get the advanced chemistry stuff I needed down... Even though in real life you're always going to be able to double-check the formulas and would ideally be encouraged to do so multiple times to make sure your results are accurate.... But I digress.

Part of it is also becuase I really like those videos on youtube where people pick apart the science of various pop culture things and I kind of wish I could do that myself.

Jasdoif

2021-02-08, 01:22 PM

Is that episode 17 of the fourth series of the Clone Wars cartoon?Yes.

The romantic ideal simply isn't realistic.No effective ideal is "realistic". The whole point is that it's possible to achieve beyond your imagination's limits of "realistic", if you strive for the ideal and don't settle for that limit; of course ideals are lofty, asymptotic things.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 01:45 PM

Yeah, but in this case, the ideal is telling you not to strive, it's telling you to do nothing and a storybook romance will fall into your lap.

Which leads to people being miserable when they marry someone within less than a year of dating and then hey, turns out she's lazy or he's a mean drunk or her father's a drug dealer who doesn't approve of him or his cousin's a Mafioso who needs a place to lay low for a while.

Jasdoif

2021-02-08, 02:01 PM

Yeah, but in this case, the ideal is telling you not to strive, it's telling you to do nothing and a storybook romance will fall into your lap.Huh, I thought it was telling you "yes, you can have romance, even if you're not sure you deserve or understand it; don't insist to yourself that it will never happen, or it will never happen". Then again, there's how many centuries' worth of "romantic ideals" competing at this point?

And yes, the sad truth that not all ideals are ideal; it's not ideal.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 02:03 PM

Huh, I thought it was telling you "yes, you can have romance, even if you're not sure you deserve or understand it; don't insist to yourself that it will never happen, or it will never happen". Then again, there's how many centuries' worth of "romantic ideals" competing at this point?

And yes, the sad truth that not all ideals are ideal; it's not ideal.

We're specifically talking about "True Love and Soul Mates, you meet them and immediately you both know you're destined to be." Not the ideal "healthy, functional relationship."

Jasdoif

2021-02-08, 02:42 PM

We're specifically talking about "True Love and Soul Mates, you meet them and immediately you both know you're destined to be." Not the ideal "healthy, functional relationship."In that case, I'll go out on a limb and say the former's not even an ideal; it's simply conflating lust and romance. Not exactly uncommon in fanfiction.

Actually I think all the other fanfic stuff you mentioned ties in there too....

And then, of course, there are all the variations of the concept: "If your soul mate is mad at you, you feel physical agony." "You feel everything your soul mate does." That just sounds like... Like it's very easy for toxic people to get away with being toxic.

My personal "favorites" are the ones where everyone is born with a scar or tattoo on their arm or hand with the first thing their soulmate will ever say to them written out. In stories it's always something like "you have beautiful eyes" or something romantic, but...These are all attempts to forcefully emulate an emotional connection between two characters via shared experience; the culmination of "I want to write a story about romance, but I don't have the patience/skill to actually write about the romancing. So I'll change the fundamental nature of my universe to skip all the interim stuff; as long as they end up ****ing no one will care, right?"...and it comes off as cheap and hollow (and coercive) as it sounds.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-08, 02:47 PM

We're specifically talking about "True Love and Soul Mates, you meet them and immediately you both know you're destined to be." Not the ideal "healthy, functional relationship."

I think these are class and time based though. The true love ideal was in opposition to romanceless arranged marriages and divorceless societies. It was a way of insisting on having a shot at happiness instead of being forced into a cultural strait jacket. The Graduate is a great example of true love as a way of bucking social expectations.

The modern "healthy relationship" is also class and culture dependent. A lot of it is "securing a life long economic alliance" with advice like "committing to the relationship" and "ignoring outside attractions."

All romantic ideals are context dependent and valid within their context.

sktarq

2021-02-08, 03:50 PM

Yeah. The romantic ideal simply isn't realistic.

Considering that the traditional western marriage was essentially an exchange of chattel, part of me wants to be a cynical jackass and say that the ideal was manufactured as a narrative to convince women to be okay with effectively being property or make them think that they're the one that's wrong if they're not okay with it.

Actully if you want to become a cynical donkey...find out that it is pretty realistic for some people...it's far worse that way. Not the "instant, bolt from the blue part" but most of classic parts of people in a relationship where they are still deeply in love decades after they start dating, are basically more than themselves because they are in such a partnership (where 2+2=5 kinda thing), seem to know each other's needs-wants-thoughts etc before the other has them, the waiting by the hospital bed because no other idea exists.... Now see that most couples get nowhere close to the "ideal"...for people to try at the impossible and fail is sad but inevitable but to try at the possible and fail is just heartbreaking. Many of my friends used my parents as their image of "true love" especially though my teen and early twenties...

Rater202

2021-02-08, 03:58 PM

"All things worth doing are worth doing right."

This is an idea that I think we're all familiar with, and it sounds good on paper...

But I find that, in practice, it needs some corollaries.

"The hardest way is not always the right way"

"More effort does not mean you did a better job."

"Not everything that is worth putting in a lot of effortrequires that much effort"

"Not everything that requires a great deal of effort to do 'right' is worth doing."

You want to take your time and assemble a Ferris wheel properly, but not everything will kill someone if you don't do it perfectly.

Lacco

2021-02-08, 04:31 PM

for people to try at the impossible and fail is sad but inevitable but to try at the possible and fail is just heartbreaking.

That pretty much sums it up.

However, I'd take a look at the sources that were used to build that love "ideal". Because I remember some that required countless sacrifices, hard to impossible tasks and lots of work to have a shot at a happy life with the "soulmate" - even if meeting them was "for free".

It's also a sign of human condition: we take shortcuts and enjoy instant gratification. Unhealthy food, destructive behaviour, cheap stuff that breaks. I agree, that many people believe that they'll just meet the soulmate and it's going to be all fine and dandy - and that is a mistake. While I know couples that hit it off perfectly and are still together, loving, caring for eachother through all their trouble, I also know this comes with a price tag.

Not everybody is willing to pay up. And I can't blame them - there are so many other options! And not everybody knows there is the option - thinking they have been lied to via the media. People also get burned - and those that get burnt tend to avoid fire - so they pick another way. Life speeds up, offers another option.

Is there a soulmate for everyone? Maybe. Maybe not - I'd go with "maybe, but your choices matter".

"Not everything that is worth putting in a lot of effortrequires that much effort"

This is a "journey is the goal" vs. "work smarter, not harder"-style things.

If the journey is worth it, take the scenic route. If it's not - work smarter, not harder. But then, when you sacrifice the journey for the result, do not be surprised if the result turns to be underwhelming.

"Not everything that requires a great deal of effort to do 'right' is worth doing."

It's fine to choose your battles, but if you decide to do something, you should do it right. Also, depends on what you are aiming at. Sometimes the bare minimum is sufficient, but oftentimes this breaks under any pressure - and takes more time & resources fixing than doing it right at the beginning.

Interestingly, as I've grown older, I'm more fond of going the scenic route. Also, I've paid my price for using shortcuts - and I've been doing less fixing in my life (excluding fixing the apartment - there I am paying also for the shortcuts my predecessors took).

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-08, 04:55 PM

I'll be brutally honest. I've never known a shortcut yet that didn't cause some kind of problem later. Generally a bigger one than they supposedly saved you from.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 04:58 PM

After a bit of introspection, I think part of the reason immortality and eternal youth appeal to me is the idea of outliving all the people who caused me trouble growing up.

I'm not sure how this interacts with my desire to mass market eternal youth to people in order to improve general quality of life.

sktarq

2021-02-08, 05:04 PM

I'll be brutally honest. I've never known a shortcut yet that didn't cause some kind of problem later. Generally a bigger one than they supposedly saved you from.

Meh its a shortcut if it causes a higher risk later...its just doing it more efficiently if it doesn't...hindsight being 20/20 also changes the names we use.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-08, 06:52 PM

Tvtyrant

2021-02-08, 06:54 PM

I passed the certification exam I was worried about. Needed an 83%, got an 84%.

Unrelated, I'm pondering how to get more fruits and veggies in my diet. Thinking of getting a big blender, and just tossing like 5 of each in there with some greek yogurt and orange juice.

Would be like a half gallon of smoothie, but I can probably manage that in a day.

Which kinds of fruits and veggies?

I like avocado as a smoothie base, thickens it up a lot and is texture wise fairly close to a milkshake (in no other ways though, y've been warned.)

Rater202

2021-02-08, 06:58 PM

I passed the certification exam I was worried about. Needed an 83%, got an 84%.

Unrelated, I'm pondering how to get more fruits and veggies in my diet. Thinking of getting a big blender, and just tossing like 5 of each in there with some greek yogurt and orange juice.

Would be like a half gallon of smoothie, but I can probably manage that in a day.

Be careful that the fruits and vegetables you use have flavors that work together.

It doesn't matter that it's good for you, if you can't make yourself drink it then it's useless.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-08, 07:07 PM

Which kinds of fruits and veggies?

I like avocado as a smoothie base, thickens it up a lot and is texture wise fairly close to a milkshake (in no other ways though, y've been warned.)

Be careful that the fruits and vegetables you use have flavors that work together.

It doesn't matter that it's good for you, if you can't make yourself drink it then it's useless.

Broccoli, spinach/kale, carrots, a banana, apple, some form of thing with berry in its name, and pineapple.

Was also considering cucumber since the taste should not be especially strong.

Open to other things.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-08, 07:12 PM

Broccoli, spinach/kale, carrots, a banana, apple, some form of thing with berry in its name, and pineapple.

Was also considering cucumber since the taste should not be especially strong.

Open to other things.

Frozen blueberries are low calorie and take the place of ice in a smoothie.

Most fruit have really weak flavors in a smoothie, so they get cut with banana which is stronger. Pineapple is quite strong as well. Brassica plants tend to be stronger then the fruits, so you get sweet kale IME. A childhood friend of mine swears that the flavor is better if the bassica's are frozen, so frozen spinach/etc and then drink it before they melt. This supposedly neuters the flavor.

Edit: Also go slow on adding in the brassicas and fiberous stuff if you don't eat a lot of fiber. Going cold to high fiber diet can lead to some really unfortunate gastrointestinal issues as you lack the bacteria for breaking it down. He gentlest is gas like an ungulate.

DataNinja

2021-02-08, 07:42 PM

I passed the certification exam I was worried about. Needed an 83%, got an 84%.

Oh, nice! Congrats! I knew you could do it! :D

Rater202

2021-02-08, 07:54 PM

Broccoli, spinach/kale, carrots, a banana, apple, some form of thing with berry in its name, and pineapple.

Was also considering cucumber since the taste should not be especially strong.

Open to other things.

If you can get your hands on it, pomegranate juice. Lots of vitamins, lots of antioxidants, and there's clinical research that suggests that as little as two ounces of it a day can drastically improve blood pressure and cholesterol levels over time.

It's one of those things that, consumed in moderation, is just supposed to be all-around good for you.

An episode of Good Eats talking about proper diet and nutrition gives the suggestion to "think purple" when it comes to smoothies: Berries, grapes, pomegranate, acai or the like making up the "bulk" of the smoothie's fruit component. Not exclusively, not by any means, but a good decent amount of it. Alton Brown also suggests that all of th fruit be fully or partially frozen rather than using fresh fruit, and for things like this I find he generally knows what he's talking about.

In case you're curious, the recipe he used in that episode can be found here. (https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/buff-smoothie-recipe-2014144)

You're gonna want a slightly smaller portion of broccoli than the other fruits and vegetables, but that's a flavor thing so feel free to ignore me if your tastes run a bit different than average.

Low-fat soy milk is also commonly included in "health" smoothies as a source of protein.

Rawhide

2021-02-08, 08:05 PM

I passed the certification exam I was worried about. Needed an 83%, got an 84%.

So you put in 1% too much effort.

Rater202

2021-02-08, 08:10 PM

So, weird question:

I'm not the only one who has dreamed that they were a pro-wrestler and you're beating the ever-loving crap out of the jackass who bullied you all through school in front of a cheering audience at Wrestlemania while Real American is playing, am I?

...I have lingering issues from my time in school.

Peelee

2021-02-08, 08:25 PM

I passed the certification exam I was worried about. Needed an 83%, got an 84%.
HUZZAH!

If you can get your hands on it, pomegranate juice.
Easy to find in the liquor aisle.

So you put in 1% too much effort.
You are technically correct. The best kind of correct!

Rater202

2021-02-08, 08:33 PM

Easy to find in the liquor aisle.

Really? I can usually only find grenadine, which is supposed to be concentrated and sweetened pomegranate juice but now days is usually corn syrup, artificial colors, and a blackcurrant based blend of natural and artificial flavors.

Peelee

2021-02-08, 08:55 PM

Really? I can usually only find grenadine, which is supposed to be concentrated and sweetened pomegranate juice but now days is usually corn syrup, artificial colors, and a blackcurrant based blend of natural and artificial flavors.

I may be spoiled by my choice of stores.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 12:16 AM

Sometimes when I'm particularly grumpy or cynical about human nature, I imagine having a bunker where I can just sleep for a couple of thousand years and then wake up in a world where I'm the last human and I can just do whatever I want because I have an apocalypse proof bunker and enough supplies to last me an eternity.

And then I think about it, the "you'll miss all your friends" thought pops in, and I stop wanting that until the next time I get bit by the grump bug.

Fyraltari

2021-02-09, 06:26 AM

Apparently the weather suddenly remembered what month it is and we've had a 15° C drop in temperature overnight.
Edit: all the puddles are now solid.

Peelee

2021-02-09, 07:01 AM

Apparently the weather suddenly remembered what month it is and we've had a 15° C drop in temperature overnight.
Edit: all the puddles are now solid.

I like short horror stories.

Rawhide

2021-02-09, 07:23 AM

I like short horror stories.

Enjoy. (https://twitter.com/MicroSFF/status/1358168685542842370)

Bonus. (https://twitter.com/MicroSFF/status/1358130624620605441)

Rater202

2021-02-09, 07:26 AM

I like short horror stories.

A young girl was playing in her room when she heard her mother's voice from the kitchen, "sweety, could you come here for a minute?" Dutifully, the young girl left her room and made her way to the kitchen but in the hallway, she found herself grabbed from behind and dragged back an inch. "Don't go in the kitchen," her mother said from behind her. "I heard it too."

A man goes into his young son's bedroom to tuck him in for the night. His son looks terrified and whispered "Daddy, I'm scared. There's a monster under my bed." Humoring his son, the man looks under his son's bed... And sees his son. "Daddy, I'm scared. There's a monster in my bed."

Single mother catches pneumonia and, not being able to rest and take care of her daughter at the same time, sends her child to her parent's house where the child's grandparents will watch her until the mother has fully recovered. One day, a few days into the arrangement, she's talking with her daughter over video chat and the daughter looks miserable, complaining about how strict her grandparents are and how many chores they're making her do and how... Weird they act. The mother dismisses it, her parents are from a different time and honestly, she had all the same complaints when she was her daughter's age only to realize in hindsight that it wasn't as bad as it seemed at the time. Shortly into the conversation, an elderly woman walks into the room in the eyesight of the camera. "Sweetheart, could you come and clean the oven for me. It needs to be cleaned before I make dinner." "In a minute grandma." The old woman leaves, and the mother tells the daughter "That's not your grandmother."

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-09, 08:41 AM

I like short horror stories.

We called but you weren't in.

No, me suggesting that as a horror story has nothing to do with me chasing down a missing parcel this morning. At least customer service agreed that none of the procedures they use to check that the driver has arrived showed him turning up. So it might actually turn up at some point today, probably at like ten in the evening once4 the driver turns his phone back on.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 09:00 AM

Apparently the weather suddenly remembered what month it is and we've had a 15° C drop in temperature overnight.
Edit: all the puddles are now solid.

Good luck with that! Solid puddles are no joke!

Meanwhile, it's currently -40 up here, -60 with the wind.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 09:22 AM

Good luck with that! Solid puddles are no joke!

I have injured myself on them more than once.

That's another reason that I think immortality or eternal youth would be nice. The older I get the more slipping on ice and falling on your ass hurts and the longer it takes the fully recover, and seeing as I've got bad knees and a bad ankle already...

Or failing that, the power of Spider-Man or Black Panther or someone whose power set includes perfect balance.

Fyraltari

2021-02-09, 09:42 AM

Good luck with that! Solid puddles are no joke!

Meanwhile, it's currently -40 up here, -60 with the wind.

Oh the temperature is what it should be. It's just the sudden shift from "well I guess we went directly frol autumn to spring" to "ah, no there it is" that's surprising.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 10:24 AM

Snow is pretty but sunlight reflecting off the perfect fluffy white is too damned bright.

Peelee

2021-02-09, 10:27 AM

Good luck with that! Solid puddles are no joke!

Meanwhile, it's currently -40 up here, -60 with the wind.

OK the short horror stories have now gotten too scary.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 10:44 AM

OK the short horror stories have now gotten too scary.

-60c is -76f

With wind chill, zodi's home town is literally anti-comfortable temperature.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-09, 11:49 AM

OK the short horror stories have now gotten too scary.

I'm going to be heading up there this year.

How's that?

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-09, 12:41 PM

Not in winter? Sensible. Winters up here are not for the neophyte.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-09, 12:59 PM

Not in winter? Sensible. Winters up here are not for the neophyte.

October 8-16 hopefully.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 01:48 PM

Not in winter? Sensible. Winters up here are not for the neophyte.

Even if things get cold, I'll be there to keep her warm, so it'll be all good.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 01:58 PM

I've been sitting on a poutine recipe for years and have never had an opportunity to make it.

Form

2021-02-09, 01:59 PM

-60c is -76f

With wind chill, zodi's home town is literally anti-comfortable temperature.

Fahrenheit? Ok, now it's a horror story.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-09, 01:59 PM

I've been sitting on a poutine recipe for years and have never had an opportunity to make it.

Having the recipe is most of the battle, actually making it is just gravy.

Form

2021-02-09, 02:03 PM

Having the recipe is most of the battle, actually making it is just gravy.

Just make sure you pout ine your best effort.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 02:32 PM

Having the recipe is most of the battle, actually making it is just gravy.

♪As some day it may happen that a victim must be found, I've got a little list, I've got a little, of society offenders who might well be underground and who never would be missed, never would be missed♪

You, sir, are now at the top of that little list because your pun is, despite its subtlety, quite criminal in its badness. Capitally criminal, if you will.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-09, 02:39 PM

♪As some day it may happen that a victim must be found, I've got a little list, I've got a little, of society offenders who might well be underground and who never would be missed, never would be missed♪

You, sir, are now at the top of that little list because your pun is, despite its subtlety, quite criminal in its badness. Capitally criminal, if you will.

So you are saying...
I'm going to fry.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-09, 03:10 PM

Si apparently companies think it's fine to make no actual attempt to deliver a parcel even when you point out that their driver provides no actual evidence of even getting near the house.

I've been avoiding doing anything that makes noise for eight hours, which has severely restricted the things I can do (couldn't even hoover), and despite promising there'd be a second attempt made today there hasn't even been a van on the street.

I'm getting pissed off, at least when RM failed a delivery it was on a day when I was legitimately out and they left a card as proof that they made the attempt. But here there's been no card, no footprints to show anybody walked to the door, and the driver was suspiciously uncontactable by the management at the depot. So yeah, that exercise bike I was going to start using today? Apparently it's off in fairyland.

Not impressed.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 03:14 PM

I've been sitting on a poutine recipe for years and have never had an opportunity to make it.

Make it and show it to me I want to see! I love food pictures; I made bannock yesterday but in the aftermath and morning after I'm sick as **** so it may not have fully cooked I don't know.

Fahrenheit? Ok, now it's a horror story.

It's cold enough for air to start crystalizing into mist that will scrape your face if you're not careful!

Si apparently companies think it's fine to make no actual attempt to deliver a parcel even when you point out that their driver provides no actual evidence of even getting near the house.

I've been avoiding doing anything that makes noise for eight hours, which has severely restricted the things I can do (couldn't even hoover), and despite promising there'd be a second attempt made today there hasn't even been a van on the street.

I'm getting pissed off, at least when RM failed a delivery it was on a day when I was legitimately out and they left a card as proof that they made the attempt. But here there's been no card, no footprints to show anybody walked to the door, and the driver was suspiciously uncontactable by the management at the depot. So yeah, that exercise bike I was going to start using today? Apparently it's off in fairyland.

Not impressed.

I really just do not understand how the mail can do that sometimes. I've had such an awful time when ordering packages in the past, and this one particular parcel lady I knew would go up to the door, knock once, drop the package in the snow, and then just leave without waiting.

Tvtyrant

2021-02-09, 03:32 PM

Make it and show it to me I want to see! I love food pictures; I made bannock yesterday but in the aftermath and morning after I'm sick as **** so it may not have fully cooked I don't know.

It's cold enough for air to start crystalizing into mist that will scrape your face if you're not careful!

I really just do not understand how the mail can do that sometimes. I've had such an awful time when ordering packages in the past, and this one particular parcel lady I knew would go up to the door, knock once, drop the package in the snow, and then just leave without waiting.

In the US you are supposed to do that, because people are terrible dog owners and let their dogs bite the package delivery people constantly. I've been attacked by a few dogs in my time, and most of them were during my time at UPS.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-09, 03:36 PM

I really just do not understand how the mail can do that sometimes. I've had such an awful time when ordering packages in the past, and this one particular parcel lady I knew would go up to the door, knock once, drop the package in the snow, and then just leave without waiting.

Weirdly, considering that London's in lockdown, dropping it in the snow would be relatively fine (not great, but in this case the expensive item would survive).

Tghe issue is that unlike Royal Mail, where I had full confidence they'd turn up on the redelivery date because I saw proof that they'd walked up to the door, I have no confodence that the driver will turn up on the rebooked day. Even worse if this happens twice more I have to break the law if I want my parcel, because I'll have to trek to the depot to pick it up.

Like, I have issues with RM, especially with how some posthumans will just leave your parcel on the doorstep sometimes without even knocking, but they're never this bad.

But yeah, there's a reason I prefer to go to a shop when I have the chance.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 03:40 PM

I think I spend too much time analyzing works of fiction for small clues.

I just spent over two hours cross-referencing Tarot cards against the histories and characterizations of a group of super heroes depicted as such to try and make sense of a comic book cover and all I managed to figure out was "stuff happens."

Edit: On Parcels. The worst story I have is a case of a package of live animals being left on the doorstep without knocking when it was col enough that they damn well could have frozen to death.

Luckily I noticed before the animals were in trouble, but...

I hate it when the delivery guy shows up with my mother or stepfather aren't there. They're the ones that order stuff and I hate having to deal with it for them. Especially when it's something complicated.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 04:12 PM

In the US you are supposed to do that, because people are terrible dog owners and let their dogs bite the package delivery people constantly. I've been attacked by a few dogs in my time, and most of them were during my time at UPS.

Totally understandable a problem but also we don't have a dog and are a small town so the person who runs the mail tends to be THE person who runs the mail. No excuse for that, I think.

Weirdly, considering that London's in lockdown, dropping it in the snow would be relatively fine (not great, but in this case the expensive item would survive).

Tghe issue is that unlike Royal Mail, where I had full confidence they'd turn up on the redelivery date because I saw proof that they'd walked up to the door, I have no confodence that the driver will turn up on the rebooked day. Even worse if this happens twice more I have to break the law if I want my parcel, because I'll have to trek to the depot to pick it up.

Like, I have issues with RM, especially with how some posthumans will just leave your parcel on the doorstep sometimes without even knocking, but they're never this bad.

But yeah, there's a reason I prefer to go to a shop when I have the chance.

It's beyond just packages getting damaged- you drop a box in front of someone's house, and SOME interprising little goblin child is going to steal that ****.

I think I spend too much time analyzing works of fiction for small clues.

I just spent over two hours cross-referencing Tarot cards against the histories and characterizations of a group of super heroes depicted as such to try and make sense of a comic book cover and all I managed to figure out was "stuff happens."

Edit: On Parcels. The worst story I have is a case of a package of live animals being left on the doorstep without knocking when it was col enough that they damn well could have frozen to death.

Luckily I noticed before the animals were in trouble, but...

I hate it when the delivery guy shows up with my mother or stepfather aren't there. They're the ones that order stuff and I hate having to deal with it for them. Especially when it's something complicated.

Ah, but sometimes you get the series that rewards you for diving that deep into it, and then don't you feel so good? Qwerty actually put me on a story called Katalepsis, and it's EXCELLENT. Content warning it is eldritch horror urban fantasy so it gets a little graphic at times.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-09, 04:27 PM

It's beyond just packages getting damaged- you drop a box in front of someone's house, and SOME interprising little goblin child is going to steal that ****.

Normally yes, but considering thr current lockdown... what goblin child?

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 04:37 PM

Normally yes, but considering thr current lockdown... what goblin child?

Fair, though I was speaking in general terms there. And yes plague time makes it harder for kids to steal your porch stuff while you're at work.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-09, 05:14 PM

Around here, it's more likely somebody's mutt will decide to use it as a chew toy. Especially if it is light and somewhat squishable (so pretty much any soft pack with clothes).

Qwertystop

2021-02-09, 05:30 PM

Ah, but sometimes you get the series that rewards you for diving that deep into it, and then don't you feel so good? Qwerty actually put me on a story called Katalepsis, and it's EXCELLENT. Content warning it is eldritch horror urban fantasy so it gets a little graphic at times.

I feel like "horror" is sort of a misplaced word in the genre name? It's called "cosmic horror", but most of what I've read in the category isn't actually scary – just, the genre conventions date back to when "people don't matter" was novel and disturbing as a concept, or at least it frightened Lovecraft. You know what I call the vast entity operating on rules beyond my comprehension that could ruin me on a whim, by accident, or without even noticing? My health insurance provider. Also the government. Also my bank. To a lesser degree, my telco, and my employer back when I was employed. I am quite used to the idea that I only exist because nobody in power cares enough to make me stop.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 05:35 PM

Ah, but sometimes you get the series that rewards you for diving that deep into it, and then don't you feel so good?

Yeah, but the kind of analysis isn't my forte.

Like, all I managed to learn is that The Hulk is a disturbingly good fit for the Tower Arcana so if I ever decide to do a Marvel/Persona fusion fic...

The Lazarus Formula is a serum invented by a fictionalized version of the Thule Society, who in the Marvel Universe were just the latest in a long line of groups of people who want to mass produce immortality, abolish death, and manufacture gods for what they claim to be altruistic purposes but are really just a desire for world domination. HYDRA is the successor group(though they've expanded past the original goal), and various previous incarnations date back to ancient Mesopotamia.

Officially it's considered a Super Soldier Serum, but it has nothing to do with Erksine's process and is more like a magic potion: It's one of several products of a millennia-long endeavor that involved study of the bodily remains of various immortals and semi-immortals, immortality elixirs, and so on.

Its effects on a living human are unknown: Captain America was forcibly injected with a small dose of it becuase its creator wanted to know how it would interact with his enhanced biology, but years of study have proven inconclusive on if it had any effect at all. It's been suggested that it might be why he survived being frozen alive and didn't drown in the hours he spent unconscious and fully submerged in seawater both before and after being frozen. It's also suggested to have contributed to his unaging body, but the fact that people like Isaiah Bradley and Protocide also possess biological immortality suggests otherwise.

Inject it in a fresh corpse, however, and the subject is brought back to life and has their body rebuilt to the peak of human potential and beyond: The known subjects resurrected in this way all gained a significant degree of muscle mass and had physical attributes equal to or greater than Captain America's, including explicit superhuman strength and toughness. They do not get tired, they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, and continue to function no matter how injured they are. Broken bones or being riddled with bullets are no concern. At most they can be rendered into a temporary death-like state by sufficient trauma to the head, but they'll eventually get back up like nothing happened(though it's suggested that cremation will keep them permanently dead.) It is not confirmed, but the fact that Erlking's bullet wounds are hall healed the second time Captain America encounters him implies that they have a more potent healing factor than baseline humans as well.

Initially, these subjects seem to be rather... Frankensteinish in mannerisms, but by their third encounter Erlkonig is speaking eloquent sentences and is shown to be intelligent and capable of reason. It's unknown if this is because the formula takes time to fully regenerate the brain, if he'd always been like this and elected not to speak at first, or if he experienced further enhancements at some point. It's also not clarified how much, if anything, Earlking retains from life, but as other subjects have full continuity of self it can be assumed.

The resurrection is not perfect, per Hank Pym there are obvious signs that the body of a subject has been dead if you know what to look for. It would be accurate to call them undead.

Inject it into a not so fresh corpse and you get Zombies. Zombies who retain full memory of who they are and awareness of their agonizing state of being a rotting corpse that got up to walk, Luckily, unlike the "super soldiers" created by the formula, zombies can be rekilled and the process can be undone with magic.

I've spent the last several days on and off wondering how to rig the system to get the "Super Soldier" results without having to die first.

Since its effects combined with SSS seem to be negligible, my best bet would be to combine it with either the Infinity Formula--A straighter immortality elixir that brings the body to peak potential and restores youth but needs to be renewed yearly unless you get a sustainable dose or combine it with something else-, or mutant growth hormone: Literally the processed hormones of mutant, inhuman, or certain kinds of mutating. Can be filtered direly, or synthesized from a blood sample. Exact effects depend on who it's made from if it's natural or synthetic if it's pure or samples from multiple "donors," if it's laced with anything, and if the subject has powers or not. It's illegal to sell or manufacture, but that's more becuase it can be highly addictive or have nasty side effects if it's made wrong more than becuase it's made of people. There are ways to make it ethically.

A small dose combined with another power granting drug can make the power granting drug's effects much greater—notably, on multiple occasions, it's been used successfully as a substitute for some of the missing ingredients in Erksien's Serum, so find ethically produced MGH with a gifted power set.
Or just hedging bets and doing both.

I think I may be obsessed with immortality to a somewhat unhealthy degree, particularly since this is all fictional stuff that... Look, if I get my hands on this then we've got bigger problems to deal with.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 05:59 PM

I feel like "horror" is sort of a misplaced word in the genre name? It's called "cosmic horror", but most of what I've read in the category isn't actually scary – just, the genre conventions date back to when "people don't matter" was novel and disturbing as a concept, or at least it frightened Lovecraft. You know what I call the vast entity operating on rules beyond my comprehension that could ruin me on a whim, by accident, or without even noticing? My health insurance provider. Also the government. Also my bank. To a lesser degree, my telco, and my employer back when I was employed. I am quite used to the idea that I only exist because nobody in power cares enough to make me stop.

Good point, horror is a misplaced term. It is definitely eldritch though, yeah, 100%.

Yeah, but the kind of analysis isn't my forte.

Like, all I managed to learn is that The Hulk is a disturbingly good fit for the Tower Arcana so if I ever decide to do a Marvel/Persona fusion fic...

The Lazarus Formula is a serum invented by a fictionalized version of the Thule Society, who in the Marvel Universe were just the latest in a long line of groups of people who want to mass produce immortality, abolish death, and manufacture gods for what they claim to be altruistic purposes but are really just a desire for world domination. HYDRA is the successor group(though they've expanded past the original goal), and various previous incarnations date back to ancient Mesopotamia.

Officially it's considered a Super Soldier Serum, but it has nothing to do with Erksine's process and is more like a magic potion: It's one of several products of a millennia-long endeavor that involved study of the bodily remains of various immortals and semi-immortals, immortality elixirs, and so on.

Its effects on a living human are unknown: Captain America was forcibly injected with a small dose of it becuase its creator wanted to know how it would interact with his enhanced biology, but years of study have proven inconclusive on if it had any effect at all. It's been suggested that it might be why he survived being frozen alive and didn't drown in the hours he spent unconscious and fully submerged in seawater both before and after being frozen. It's also suggested to have contributed to his unaging body, but the fact that people like Isaiah Bradley and Protocide also possess biological immortality suggests otherwise.

Inject it in a fresh corpse, however, and the subject is brought back to life and has their body rebuilt to the peak of human potential and beyond: The known subjects resurrected in this way all gained a significant degree of muscle mass and had physical attributes equal to or greater than Captain America's, including explicit superhuman strength and toughness. They do not get tired, they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, and continue to function no matter how injured they are. Broken bones or being riddled with bullets are no concern. At most they can be rendered into a temporary death-like state by sufficient trauma to the head, but they'll eventually get back up like nothing happened(though it's suggested that cremation will keep them permanently dead.) It is not confirmed, but the fact that Erlking's bullet wounds are hall healed the second time Captain America encounters him implies that they have a more potent healing factor than baseline humans as well.

Initially, these subjects seem to be rather... Frankensteinish in mannerisms, but by their third encounter Erlkonig is speaking eloquent sentences and is shown to be intelligent and capable of reason. It's unknown if this is because the formula takes time to fully regenerate the brain, if he'd always been like this and elected not to speak at first, or if he experienced further enhancements at some point. It's also not clarified how much, if anything, Earlking retains from life, but as other subjects have full continuity of self it can be assumed.

The resurrection is not perfect, per Hank Pym there are obvious signs that the body of a subject has been dead if you know what to look for. It would be accurate to call them undead.

Inject it into a not so fresh corpse and you get Zombies. Zombies who retain full memory of who they are and awareness of their agonizing state of being a rotting corpse that got up to walk, Luckily, unlike the "super soldiers" created by the formula, zombies can be rekilled and the process can be undone with magic.

I've spent the last several days on and off wondering how to rig the system to get the "Super Soldier" results without having to die first.

Since its effects combined with SSS seem to be negligible, my best bet would be to combine it with either the Infinity Formula--A straighter immortality elixir that brings the body to peak potential and restores youth but needs to be renewed yearly unless you get a sustainable dose or combine it with something else-, or mutant growth hormone: Literally the processed hormones of mutant, inhuman, or certain kinds of mutating. Can be filtered direly, or synthesized from a blood sample. Exact effects depend on who it's made from if it's natural or synthetic if it's pure or samples from multiple "donors," if it's laced with anything, and if the subject has powers or not. It's illegal to sell or manufacture, but that's more becuase it can be highly addictive or have nasty side effects if it's made wrong more than becuase it's made of people. There are ways to make it ethically.

A small dose combined with another power granting drug can make the power granting drug's effects much greater—notably, on multiple occasions, it's been used successfully as a substitute for some of the missing ingredients in Erksien's Serum, so find ethically produced MGH with a gifted power set.
Or just hedging bets and doing both.

I think I may be obsessed with immortality to a somewhat unhealthy degree, particularly since this is all fictional stuff that... Look, if I get my hands on this then we've got bigger problems to deal with.

I think you are better at it than you think.

I'll add to this a bit; Thor is The Chariot, absolutely.

Rater202

2021-02-09, 06:09 PM

I think you are better at it than you think.

I'll add to this a bit; Thor is The Chariot, absolutely.

Well, he's not one of the options.https://terrigen-cdn-dev.marvel.com/content/prod/1x/defenders_2021_teaserimage.jpg

2: The High Priestess—Red Harpy
4: The Emporer—Namor
6: The Lovers—Cloud
13: Death—Brunhilde.
15: The Devil—Son of Satan
16: The Tower—Hulk
18: The Moon—Moon Dragon
19: The Sun—Beast
20: Judgement—The Silver Surfer

I looked stuff up and compared to the characters depicted to try and determine what the went is going to be about... But all I got from it is that they were spot on when they made Hulk the Tower.

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 06:13 PM

Well, he's not one of the options.https://terrigen-cdn-dev.marvel.com/content/prod/1x/defenders_2021_teaserimage.jpg

2: The High Priestess—Red Harpy
4: The Emporer—Namor
6: The Lovers—Cloud
13: Death—Brunhilde.
15: The Devil—Son of Satan
16: The Tower—Hulk
18: The Moon—Moon Dragon
19: The Sun—Beast
20: Judgement—The Silver Surfer

I looked stuff up and compared to the characters depicted to try and determine what the went is going to be about... But all I got from it is that they were spot on when they made Hulk the Tower.

So I don't know all the characters, and I won't flood the forum too much with my ruminating on this (mostly because I'm tired and sick today), but I can say that Namor as Emperor is PERFECT, and Silver Surfer as Judgement is absolutely spot on.

Also!: February 24th, I have an evaluation with the Edmonton Health Society! It's time!

Rater202

2021-02-09, 06:22 PM

Also!: February 24th, I have an evaluation with the Edmonton Health Society! It's time!

Is this a congratulations situation or a good luck situation?

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 06:50 PM

Is this a congratulations situation or a good luck situation?

It's a mix of both honestly. Congrats on getting the evaluation, good luck on getting approved still.

Rogar Demonblud

2021-02-09, 07:01 PM

So we light a roman candle for you?

Wizard_Lizard

2021-02-09, 07:16 PM

Had a birb (pigeon) whack into my second story window and hurt it's wing from the fall. After a few days and some food (and a few scares from the cat and dog), it's better now and flew off!
Happy for the government drone!

LaZodiac

2021-02-09, 07:43 PM

So we light a roman candle for you?

If that's your prerogative go for it. I do like explosions!

Had a birb (pigeon) whack into my second story window and hurt it's wing from the fall. After a few days and some food (and a few scares from the cat and dog), it's better now and flew off!
Happy for the government drone!

Aw, poor silly wing-rat. Glad it's okay. Assume it will come back.

I'm... going to assume that drone comment is for me and I'll note "not interview for job, interview for getting surgery".

EDIT: Oh wait right I get it now birds aren't real.

enderlord99

2021-02-09, 08:14 PM

I'm... going to assume that drone comment is for me and I'll note "not interview for job, interview for getting surgery".
I'm pretty sure it-

EDIT: Oh wait right I get it now birds aren't real.
Yeah, that.

Wizard_Lizard

2021-02-09, 08:24 PM

If that's your prerogative go for it. I do like explosions!

Aw, poor silly wing-rat. Glad it's okay. Assume it will come back.

I'm... going to assume that drone comment is for me and I'll note "not interview for job, interview for getting surgery".

EDIT: Oh wait right I get it now birds aren't real.

Yeah no it's been a couple of days and I assume the.. cat and the dog have discouraged it from returning.
and yeah birbs are government spies, duh, keep up with the news!

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-09, 08:32 PM

I'm... going to assume that drone comment is for me and I'll note "not interview for job, interview for getting surgery".

I know so many in that situation. And far, far too many in the 'can't get the interview for the interview for the interview for the interview' stage.

Peelee

2021-02-09, 08:51 PM

I know so many in that situation. And far, far too many in the 'can't get the interview for the interview for the interview for the interview' stage.

I passed a background check and then passed a test so that I can get to the interview stage. Assuming I pass (they haven't gotten back to me to schedule the interview yet), I get to have another test, and then an offer, and then quite some time of training.

Super excited about it, though. But yeah, I know the pain of just getting to the interview.

Mystic Muse

2021-02-10, 02:37 AM

the exam I passed, Security+ recommends 2 years on the job with a security focus, and Network+ before you take it. I failed Network+ (will be retaking it in a month or so) and I've had an IT job 5 months without a security focus.

I passed this exam with only 2 months of studying. I feel like the orc who managed to shrug off 3 shots from Legolas and blow a hole in Helm's Deep. In a good way.

Spoilered this because I know it probably comes off as obnoxious, but it's a self-esteem boost that delivered a solid uppercut to my depression.

I've been looking at IT job listings. What I'm seeing is really encouraging. If I stick with the company I'm with for another year or two, I should be able to get at least three more certifications under my belt, which will help getting a much better paying job down the line.

Saw one tonight. After a network administration-centered certification (a step above the one I need to retake) and having worked at my current job another year, I could make over double what I'm making now.

And even at my current job, I should be making $13 an hour by the end of the year, even if I only get the certification I failed on but almost passed (needed 80% got 76%)

DataNinja

2021-02-10, 03:48 AM

Oh, nice, Muse! Sounds like things are heading up! It's good to hear good news in these times!

Rawhide

2021-02-10, 03:54 AM

I remember the CompTIA Security+. Did it as an elective for my Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer: Security. Didn't do any of the other CompTIA exams as only that one counted as an elective.

Rater202

2021-02-10, 08:38 AM

Have you ever looked down at yourself, noticed a cut or scratch, and just have no idea where it came from?

That happens me every couple of months.

LaZodiac

2021-02-10, 09:01 AM

Have you ever looked down at yourself, noticed a cut or scratch, and just have no idea where it came from?

That happens me every couple of months.

God, I hate when that happens. Little pock marks of cuts and scratches. It sucks.

Fyraltari

2021-02-10, 09:04 AM

Have you ever looked down at yourself, noticed a cut or scratch, and just have no idea where it came from?

That happens me every couple of months.

I get bruises sometimes, which I find really perplexing.

Rater202

2021-02-10, 09:14 AM

God, I hate when that happens. Little pock marks of cuts and scratches. It sucks.
And they don't start hurting until you notice they're there, which is the opposite of how pain works and that's the most annoying part.

I get bruises sometimes, which I find really perplexing....I'd uh... How often are we talking here? If it's frequent then you might want to get that checked out if you can.

Fyraltari

2021-02-10, 09:16 AM

...I'd uh... How often are we talking here? If it's frequent then you might want to get that checked out if you can.

I dunno, less than once a year, give or take.

Peelee

2021-02-10, 09:40 AM

Have you ever looked down at yourself, noticed a cut or scratch, and just have no idea where it came from?

That happens me every couple of months.

All. The. Time.

My wife gets very mildly concerned sometimes over it. Mostly she's just confused though.

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-10, 09:54 AM

Have you ever looked down at yourself, noticed a cut or scratch, and just have no idea where it came from?

That happens me every couple of months.

A couple of times a month, it generally means that my arms brushed something but I haven't noticed, or if on my finger that I've nicked myself with a knife while opening something.

Don't you hate it when you're at work and you have an idea for a game? Now I've got to edit until I get home so I can write it down.

Peelee

2021-02-10, 10:12 AM

WHAT NOW, YALE AND NASA?! (https://www.forbes.com/best-large-employers/#382997f6fb3e)

And also Costco, I guess.

LaZodiac

2021-02-10, 10:20 AM

I got my girlfriend a very nice Valentine's Day present~ (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508731820179849217/809063808839974972/unknown.png)

Anonymouswizard

2021-02-10, 10:44 AM

Considering the time of year I thought I'd treat you all to some poetry.

Roses are white
Violets are white
Climate change
Is not that bright