Does this one line ruin Legacy Champion/Uncanny Trickster exploits?

[Elves]

Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster are two prestige classes that some argue can be used to virtually extend the scaling benefits of prestige classes shorter than 10 levels.

But I found this on Epic Level Handbook page 5-6:


Despite the 20th-level limit indicated inthe Player’s Handbook, you can advance a class level beyond 20th by using the rules in this book. You can also advance the class level of a ten-level prestige class (such as those pre-sented in the DUNGEON MASTER’S Guide) beyond 10th level, but only if your character level is already 20th or higher. You cannot advance the class level of a class with fewer than ten levels beyond the maximum described for that class, regardless of your character level.

It's phrased as a general rule, so it means you can't lengthen HFW and other such classes even if you otherwise think it's legal (which is questionable to begin with).

[Saintheart]

Insert standard argument about Primary Source vs. Secondary Source, therefore primary text of Legacy Champion trumps secondary text of ELH handbook (which is a dirty, greasy 3.0 source that real players don't use any more than they sully their hands with the Untouchables text of Dragon magazine.)

Plus, yeah, it's part of one paragraph addressing one specific phenomenon that arises naturally out of the preceding sentences. I'd like the Tormtor School freedom from penalties to apply to Power Attack penalties too, but only in some weird Grand Platonic RAW Universe is that ever going to fly.

[Nifft]

IMHO the Epic Level Handbook is claiming rules authority over Epic extensions of prestige classes.

Shenanigans which don't involve writing an Epic extension would be outside the claimed scope of the ELH.

[Gruftzwerg]

1: Neither Legacy Champion nor Uncanny Trickster do give you the required permission to progress the class nor its abilities beyond the normal limit.

2: The Epic Rules are specif to Epic and thus aren't general rules that could be used pre-epic. Even if said character would be epic, the rules make it clear that they can't progress PRCs with fever than 10 max lvls beyond their normal limits.

No matter how you look at it, it ain't an exploit. The permission to go beyond the normal prc limits ain't given anywhere.
You can't even progress max 10 lvl PRCs beyond their normal (10lvl) limit pre-epic. You have to wait till EPIC lvls before you can progress em past lvl 10.

[Doctor Despair]

IMHO the Epic Level Handbook is claiming rules authority over Epic extensions of prestige classes.

Shenanigans which don't involve writing an Epic extension would be outside the claimed scope of the ELH.


Definitely agree here, but I think it's a non-issue. Legacy Champion grants "...class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." It does not advance your class level; it increases your effective level. As such, it doesn't even conflict with the ELH, which prohibits advancing your class level in a 10-level prestige beyond 10 pre-epic, or advancing your class level a smaller prestige class beyond its maximum at all. Effective class level is not the same as class level; a Beastmasters or characters with Natural Bond frequently have an effective druid level that is higher than their actual druid level (if they have druid levels at all); characters with Improved Binding have a higher effective Binder level than their class level in Binder. Class level and effective class level are different terms, so the ELH clause shouldn't be relevant at all. As you said, the ELH passage is, in context, discussing creating epic extensions of classes to continue taking class levels in a prestige class you've capped out after reaching level 20, not advancing class features or effective class levels.