Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

[Vinyadan]

I'll post this again, because earlier I added it to my post when there were already new ones after it:

A pretty good IPA guide with sounds: https://www.speechactive.com/english-vowels-ipa-international-phonetic-alphabet/ it's aimed to English, the speaker is a native Anglophone, and it sounds like she's a professional, unlike the Wikipedia one.

[Tanarii]

I'll post this again, because earlier I added it to my post when there were already new ones after it:

A pretty good IPA guide with sounds: https://www.speechactive.com/english-vowels-ipa-international-phonetic-alphabet/ it's aimed to English, the speaker is a native Anglophone, and it sounds like she's a professional, unlike the Wikipedia one.
Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

[Vinyadan]

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pat) about (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/about) right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.

Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The point I'm trying to make however isn't that Cambridge reports the pronunciations everyone uses (accents and varieties exist and we probably wouldn't need the IPA if everyone pronounced the same way), but simply that these are the sounds represented by the symbols æ for pat and ə for about.

[Caelestion]

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

Then all we keep doing is showing that in your accent, those two sounds have merged, as in the pin-pen debate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_close_front_vowels #Pin%E2%80%93pen_merger). After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.

[Xuc Xac]

After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.

The vowel in the golf term "putt" is actually /ʌ/, not /ə/. The schwa /ə/ only occurs as the only vowel in "weak" words like the articles "an" and "the" (and not even in every instance of those words).

[Max_Killjoy]

It's usually whatever initial sound you are using for the diphthong (mostly /a/ or /ɑ/ though maybe there are some other options).

Try extending (really extending, for a couple of seconds at least) "sigh" or "bye". Then do the same with "bra", "spa" or "shah". Record, isolate only the middle, and compare.

Technically you can try extending /ɪ̯/ but then you get the same result from "sigh", and "may" and I think the sounds are supposed to be different, unless there is a dialect with a "pry-pray" merger.

Remember how I tried to describe the "silent breath" or "tiny little puff of breath" when I tried to explain what was going on mechanically with my "long I"?

If I stretch "sigh" waaaaaaay out, there's a moment between S and I where I'm not making any noise.



Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

Hmmm... for me, pat rhymes with cat, while about starts with an "uh" sound.




You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pat) about (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/about) right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.

Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The point I'm trying to make however isn't that Cambridge reports the pronunciations everyone uses (accents and varieties exist and we probably wouldn't need the IPA if everyone pronounced the same way), but simply that these are the sounds represented by the symbols æ for pat and ə for about.


For me, despite the being different vowels, I don't feel any difference in lip tenseness.. which links back to the earlier thing with many vowels not involving lips or jaw position for me, just the tongue.

[Caelestion]

The vowel in the golf term "putt" is actually /ʌ/, not /ə/. The schwa /ə/ only occurs as the only vowel in "weak" words like the articles "an" and "the" (and not even in every instance of those words).

What about the start of about? That has three vowels. Then there's place names that end in -ham, such as Birmingham and Buckingham, that end in that swallowed vowel sound?

[Tanarii]

Then all we keep doing is showing that in your accent, those two sounds have merged, as in the pin-pen debate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_close_front_vowels #Pin%E2%80%93pen_merger). After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.
No, because about is not pronounce uh-bout (or eh-bout), it's pronounce ah-bout. Just like pat is pronounce pah-t


Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The only difference in tenseness comes from a proceeding consonant. The vowel is the same. Paaaaah-t is the same as pat is the same as aaaaah-bout is the same as about.


Hmmm... for me, pat rhymes with cat, while about starts with an "uh" sound.I don't think I've ever heard anyone say uh-bout, but I definitely say ah-bout. Which sounds like pat and cat.


You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pat) about (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/about) right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.
Listened, and apart from some overemphasis (spitting the word out) in the word pat, they're the same a sound.

[Caelestion]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

[Max_Killjoy]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

I think I've heard about pronounced "ah-bowt" with a quick first vowel.

What I'm rather incredulous about is a claim to have never heard "uh-bowt" (much like the U in "duh" or "sum" or the "un" prefix) -- that's common across many US dialects/accents.

[Imbalance]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

"Because you have been down there, Neo. You know that road. You know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be."


I don't know, like, how to even continue this. There is an entire company, might of heard of them, called Apple, named after the fruit. People say the name on the news and stuff. Somehow, it sounds like Ahpple? Serious question: are you trolling?

[Tanarii]

I think I've heard about pronounced "ah-bowt" with a quick first vowel.

What I'm rather incredulous about is a claim to have never heard "uh-bowt" (much like the U in "duh" or "sum" or the "un" prefix) -- that's common across many US dialects/accents.Given that the link for the word provided most recently had ah-bout, and not uh-bout for Uk nor US ...

[Max_Killjoy]

Given that the link for the word provided most recently had ah-bout, and not uh-bout for Uk nor US ...

About -- əˈbaʊt -- https://www.dictionary.com/browse/about?s=t

ə -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel

That's the "uh" sound we're talking... about.

[Caelestion]

So I can only conclude that you hear differently to other people. This is hardly unprecedented, given that the brain tricks us daily in any number of ways, and our use of language affects our very senses. Persistently saying that everyone is wrong, though, is really not the way to go about things though.

[Tanarii]

About -- əˈbaʊt -- https://www.dictionary.com/browse/about?s=t

ə -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel

That's the "uh" sound we're talking... about.Whelp. I listened. As in my opinion, the first link is "ah-bout" and does not use the sound from the second link.

[Imbalance]

Whelp. I listened. As in my opinion, the first link is "ah-bout" and does not use the sound from the second link.

Please understand, I don't mean to pick on you, but you prolly wanna go ahead and make an ear doctor appointment. Up to you. Just a suggestion.

[Saint-Just]

Remember how I tried to describe the "silent breath" or "tiny little puff of breath" when I tried to explain what was going on mechanically with my "long I"?

If I stretch "sigh" waaaaaaay out, there's a moment between S and I where I'm not making any noise.


So it seems you claim to produce two sounds, it's just the first is not is what others seem to think. (not /a/, /ɑ/, /ɐ/, or even /ä/). All in all it seems highly unlikely. So I will say "give me the auricular proof" and bow out for now.

[Xuc Xac]

What about the start of about? That has three vowels.

Then it wouldn't be a word with only one vowel like I was talking about.

I can't think of any examples of a stressed schwa in English. If a "schwa sound" is stressed, it's almost always a /ʌ/ instead. Most English speakers can't hear the difference because English treats them as equivalent (which is why people think things like "sun" and "Anderson" rhyme). Some languages use schwas as distinct sounds. For example, Vietnamese has a long schwa (written "ơ" and pronounced /ə/) and a short schwa (written "â" and pronounced /ə̆/), so they can clearly recognize the difference between a schwa and another vowel.

Speaking of Vietnamese, I could probably get a whole paper out of people being unable to recognize that the sounds actually coming out of their mouths are not the ones they think they're saying because they've internalized a simplified explanation (like all the English speakers who think "long i" is one sound because it's written with one letter).

Vietnamese spelling is almost entirely phonetic (various accents pronounce words differently, but each speaker has one non-ambiguous reading for any given word) and there are no "silent letters", but there are "invisible sounds" that aren't written down. They learned the sounds of the alphabet and how to match the written and spoken words, but they never realize that they're saying additional sounds that aren't in the word.

I met a woman named Lộc who pronounced her name in way that sounded like "Lope". When i asked her to sound it out slowly, she said each letter sound separately then said the word together: "Luh Oh Kuh. Lope." She was completely oblivious to the "P" sound. Other people tried to help explain and they did the same thing. They all pronounce the /p/ but it wasn't written down and they were never instructed to say it or not say it, so they didn't notice it (but they noticed it sounded wrong if I didn't say it). It took a Vietnamese linguist to point out that they close their lips and produce a bilabial consonant in addition to the written sound after a rounded vowel, so "Lộc" is actually pronounced /lok͜p/ (and "Phúc Long" sounds like "foop lom" so they don't know why you're laughing at the sign on the noodle shop).

[Caelestion]

I can't think of any examples of a stressed schwa in English. If a "schwa sound" is stressed, it's almost always a /ʌ/ instead. Most English speakers can't hear the difference because English treats them as equivalent (which is why people think things like "sun" and "Anderson" rhyme).

I can feel a slight difference when I say sun and -son, but in casual speech, I'd never notice the difference.

[Max_Killjoy]

Food for thought.

https://youtu.be/nhOhZ5HSd54?t=220

[Segev]

Food for thought.

https://youtu.be/nhOhZ5HSd54?t=220

Interesting.

I have to admit, Max, I'm curious to hear you pronouce "Sigh." Both normally, and with the prolonged "i" in the middle. When I do it, there's a distinct point where I shift from "ah" to "ee."

[Caelestion]

Say, what? Where do you say "ah" in sigh?

[Tanarii]

Say, what? Where do you say "ah" in sigh?
I imagine he's hearing something like Sah-ee
I'd guess the alternative would be s-eye
Unless those are the same to some folks?

[SunsetWaraxe]

Definitely a HARD G :)

[Xuc Xac]

I imagine he's hearing something like Sah-ee
I'd guess the alternative would be s-eye
Unless those are the same to some folks?

"Sigh" is /sa͜ɪ/ and "Eye" is /a͜ɪ/. The vowels run together to make a diphthong.

"Samurai" the way English speakers say it is /sæməra͜ɪ/ with that same diphthong, but the Japanese say /samurai/ with the /a/ and /i/ as separate monophthongs (which is why they chose to write it "ai" when romanizing it instead of something like "ī").

[Segev]

I imagine he's hearing something like Sah-ee
I'd guess the alternative would be s-eye
Unless those are the same to some folks?


"Sigh" is /sa͜ɪ/ and "Eye" is /a͜ɪ/. The vowels run together to make a diphthong.

"Samurai" the way English speakers say it is /sæməra͜ɪ/ with that same diphthong, but the Japanese say /samurai/ with the /a/ and /i/ as separate monophthongs (which is why they chose to write it "ai" when romanizing it instead of something like "ī").

Yeah, in reference to my saying "Sah ee" is how I pronounce "sigh," I was specifically referring to when I draw out the vowel sound. "Siiiiiiiiiiigh." The way that's written looks like one sound all the way through, but what actually happens when I say it is "sahhhhhh-eeeeee." Though the slur between "ah" and "ee" is very pronounced, so it's not a sudden transition. But despite that, there's still a distinct time of "ah," of "ee" and of transition between the two, rather than it all being one sound.