Bladesinger/whispers bard multiclass

[adb82]

Hello,
As i was allowed to use other manuals here my idea for the build of an elf, 6 bladesinger/x whispers bard:

Stat
Str 8
Dex 16
Cos 10
Int 15
Wis 12
Cha 13

As feat he gonna get elven accuracy at LV 4, +2 dex at LV 10, +2 dex at LV 14 and observant as last feat.
The idea is to incentrate it on shadow blade, counterspell (helped well from Jack of all trades) and elven accuracy, using psychic blades everytime he crit. Would be nice to put BB and GFB inside for the opportunity attacks but I think I don't have space for the warcaster feat, any suggestions? Is it ok to stay till LV 10 with 16 dex and try to get advantage with shadow blade and familiar for easy hit? Is this build working enough well or there is something making it too weak in some tier?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I know in your first post you mentioned the elven accuracy, but there were so many other variables in there that nobody really commented on this bit. My suggestion is to check out some of the math on this (pretty sure someone has done a thread on this site). Basically against very high AC targets it might be worth it, but the biggest part of the benefit comes from regular advantage, and the super advantage doesn't make much difference in most cases as you are already really likely to hit. You need to consider if it's worth taking vs ASI in Dex or Int (which will also help AC on this character) as both of these provide more broad based benefit.

[meandean]

I think this is pretty good. I think if you want both Counterspelling and at least some boost to crits, Whispers Bard is a good solution. I think you would be well-served by higher CON and/or CON-related feats.

I wonder if, if you truly want to be the King of Counterspell, and you're going to level 6 anyway, you should continue to level 7 and get Greater Invisibility. Your Counterspells can't be countered if they can't see you, and your Elven Accuracy would be continually in play. Of course, that would mean your ASI progress would be delayed even further (unless you kept going to 8!), as would your Bard progress. (Bards do also get Greater Invisibility, but naturally if you're going Wizard 6 first and it's a level 4 spell, you wouldn't get it until very late.)

I dunno if this is what you want, but if you're allowed to use other books, you have the option of Soulknife Rogue 3/Abjuration Wizard X. This would give you Psychic Blades (wait, did they really call it the same thing as the very different Whispers Bard ability?? Sheesh!) They aren't nearly as good as Shadow Blades, and if you don't stick with Rogue and keep getting Sneak Attack dice, they don't scale. But, they don't use your spell slots/concentration, and you do get two acceptable attacks without needing Extra Attack. It can be something you do as you concentrate on a spell. You would also have Cunning Action, so you can Hide and get advantage more often, Disengage for safety, and Dash both for your own safety and (once you get Projected Ward) others'. And the Psionic Powers can be useful, and do scale up (in terms of number of dice, anyway) even as you become more wizardly. Eventually, you'd get the Abjurer bonus to Counterspell, which is more than the Bard bonus. Arcane Ward may also make it more plausible to have a lower CON. Ultimately, I don't know whether you like the "magic knife" concept in general, or want Shadow Blade specifically.

[Gignere]

I know in your first post you mentioned the elven accuracy, but there were so many other variables in there that nobody really commented on this bit. My suggestion is to check out some of the math on this (pretty sure someone has done a thread on this site). Basically against very high AC targets it might be worth it, but the biggest part of the benefit comes from regular advantage, and the super advantage doesn't make much difference in most cases as you are already really likely to hit. You need to consider if it's worth taking vs ASI in Dex or Int (which will also help AC on this character) as both of these provide more broad based benefit.

For level appropriate CR monsters you can expect to hit about 50% of the time. So EA is a 16% increase in damage not counting the ~50% increase in crit rate over normal advantage. 16% increase in damage for a half feat is pretty damn amazing. Of course you can set it up that you can get the benefit of a full dex ASI as well.

Compare to a full dex ASI is only going to increase hit rate by 5% and damage by maybe 5%-10% if we are talking about Shadowblade + psychic blades, of course dex also increases AC and initiative but this at least shows that EA is very competitive with a dex ASI which is usually consider the strongest ASI anyway.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

For level appropriate CR monsters you can expect to hit about 50% of the time. So EA is a 16% increase in damage not counting the ~50% increase in crit rate over normal advantage. 16% increase in damage for a half feat is pretty damn amazing. Of course you can set it up that you can get the benefit of a full dex ASI as well.

Compare to a full dex ASI is only going to increase hit rate by 5% and damage by maybe 5%-10% if we are talking about Shadowblade + psychic blades, of course dex also increases AC and initiative but this at least shows that EA is very competitive with a dex ASI which is usually consider the strongest ASI anyway.

Wouldn't Dex ASI work out more than this in cases where you have advantage (which of course you would to trigger EA)?

One more point/ question. Both of the 5th level martials I am currently DMing are +8 hit (18 stat, +3 proficiency, and +1 weapon), meaning they are 50% to hit AC 19. By the table 19 AC continues right up to very high level monsters, so 50% as a base seems low, particularly as characters level up.

[Gignere]

Wouldn't Dex ASI work out more than this in cases where you have advantage (which of course you would to trigger EA)?

One more point/ question. Both of the 5th level martials I am currently DMing are +8 hit (18 stat, +3 proficiency, and +1 weapon), meaning they are 50% to hit AC 19. By the table 19 AC continues right up to very high level monsters, so 50% as a base seems low, particularly as characters level up.

I took consideration of magic weapons out of the equation. Yes with magic weapons the increase in EA would be slightly less. Unless your DM adjusts encounter AC to account for magic items which I do, but maybe not all DMs do so.

[adb82]

Well, i actually have also a version of this build without elven accuracy. Same stat (bladesong and, in this build, warcaster, should be enough for keep concentration), but i changed the feats.

First I'm gonna use an homebrew race that add 2 dex and 1 int, so i don't need observant anymore bcs int gonna start from 16, than i changed the progression in this way: 8 bladesinger/10 bard whispers/2 bladesinger, so i get higher spells from wizard (include greater invisibility that i didn't consider before) and don't lose any asi along the way. Asi's would be: at lv 4 +2 dex, LV 8 warcaster, LV 12 +2 dex, last asi meta magic adept for 2 shadow blades with twinned spell at Max lv spell slot, should work isn't it? Or +2 int. Honestly i don't know which work better all the way, if the elf with elven accuracy, or this one...this one it looks more solid, even maybe it lose some damage and crit chances...

[Gignere]

Well, i actually have also a version of this build without elven accuracy. Same stat (bladesong and, in this build, warcaster, should be enough for keep concentration), but i changed the feats.

First I'm gonna use an homebrew race that add 2 dex and 1 int, so i don't need observant anymore bcs int gonna start from 16, than i changed the progression in this way: 8 bladesinger/10 bard whispers/2 bladesinger, so i get higher spells from wizard (include greater invisibility that i didn't consider before) and don't lose any asi along the way. Asi's would be: at lv 4 +2 dex, LV 8 warcaster, LV 12 +2 dex, last asi meta magic adept for 2 shadow blades with twinned spell at Max lv spell slot, should work isn't it? Or +2 int. Honestly i don't know which work better all the way, if the elf with elven accuracy, or this one...this one it looks more solid, even maybe it lose some damage and crit chances...

You can’t twin shadow blade.

[adb82]

You can’t twin shadow blade.

Well, than +2 int, sentinel or i don't know which use of meta magic can be more useful (quicken maybe?) but probably there is one good (but even keep twin and double haste it always have its good reason)...or at that point really whatever 😅...even lucky, resilient (cos or wis), anything gonna work...I'm more focused to understand if everything till that point work enought well, that last asi it's not that important, but thanks, i didn't figure it out that i couldn't twin it bcs the range it's "self".

[adb82]

Still other way can be 8 bladesinger/3 sword bard/x bladesinger, that should work good as well...comparing this with the whispers without elven accuracy i can't decide which fits better my pg. Which do you think have better benefits? Bcs with this last one I'm gonna get hight LV spells like simulacrum that I won't get if i go with the whispers dip...

[Keravath]

Just some thoughts ...

The biggest issue I see is that you have 14 levels of bard spells with a very low DC since your charisma is 13. This seems like a lot to miss out on. If you want smites you could go with 2 levels of paladin and leave it at that only requiring a 13 in strength then boost dex and int and take 18 levels of bladesinger. You have lots of spells for smiting (more than you would get with the whispers bard option and which scale to more damage and you get higher level spells that key off int which is one of your high stats to start with.

On the other hand, bard does give you some expertise though if that is really important you could throw in a level of rogue and still get 9th level spells at the end of the day.

Finally, EA is ok if you can regularly obtain advantage on attack rolls. Shadow blade is good for that in dim light or darkness but doesn't do much in other circumstances and you don't have that many options for obtaining advantage otherwise.

[Aett_Thorn]

So one other thing I’m seeing in this potential build that I haven’t seen others address (but maybe I just missed it) is that you want to use Psychic Blades on crits, but with a 13 Cha, you’re only going to have one use per long rest until level 11, and then it’s still one use per short rest only. Doesn’t seem like a great trade off.

[adb82]

Just some thoughts ...

The biggest issue I see is that you have 14 levels of bard spells with a very low DC since your charisma is 13. This seems like a lot to miss out on. If you want smites you could go with 2 levels of paladin and leave it at that only requiring a 13 in strength then boost dex and int and take 18 levels of bladesinger. You have lots of spells for smiting (more than you would get with the whispers bard option and which scale to more damage and you get higher level spells that key off int which is one of your high stats to start with.

On the other hand, bard does give you some expertise though if that is really important you could throw in a level of rogue and still get 9th level spells at the end of the day.

Finally, EA is ok if you can regularly obtain advantage on attack rolls. Shadow blade is good for that in dim light or darkness but doesn't do much in other circumstances and you don't have that many options for obtaining advantage otherwise.

Yep i was thinking it too, that's why in my last post i came out with 8 bladesinger/3 sword bard/x bladesinger, that let me get hight LV wizard spells like simulacrum, I'm only worried about maybe at low lvs it don't have enough damage output. I chooses bard for the bonus on counterspell and expertise, smite Is not a priority, especially without EA, as I'm thinking this character for a good use of shadow blade and counterspell, but the whispers Bard came out bcs i started this as a bladesinger/arcane trickster, than i decided to go bard for Jack of all trades and full caster spell slots, but I was searching some way to don't lose too much damage output after lose sneak attack...

Ps for advantage shadow blade when it work, greater invisibility, than familiar till it survive or flanking.

[adb82]

So one other thing I’m seeing in this potential build that I haven’t seen others address (but maybe I just missed it) is that you want to use Psychic Blades on crits, but with a 13 Cha, you’re only going to have one use per long rest until level 11, and then it’s still one use per short rest only. Doesn’t seem like a great trade off.

Yes, and dipping only 3 LV sword bard this problem wouldnt be solved i suppose, but at this point I don't know if it's really worth it or go straight bladesinger it's easier and better...

[adb82]

Bcs if it's not so worth it I will probably go on with my original idea of 7 or 8 bladesinger/x arcane trickster that I'm kinda sure it works pretty well... and here I can even think to use BB and GFB giving up one attack...

[adb82]

Can be probably something like this:

Str 8
Dex 16 (+2 racial)
Cos 12
Int 16 (+1 racial)
Wis 10
Cha 12

(I'm not sure if put the 12 on cha or wis, considering i tend to put expertise on "dangerous" skills, like deceive, and considering also that it get already proficiency with wis saving throw, but not with cha...

Feats should be
1) +2 dex
2) +2 dex
3) +2 int
4) +2 int

Get advantage with shadow blade, greater invisibility, familiar, flanking...depends on LV, add booming blade or gfb plus sneak attack, should be a good dps...that get to be more tanky than a straight arcane trickster, it get shadow blade and counterspell much earlier, but it lose 4d6 sneak attack i think...

[Nidgit]

So one other thing I’m seeing in this potential build that I haven’t seen others address (but maybe I just missed it) is that you want to use Psychic Blades on crits, but with a 13 Cha, you’re only going to have one use per long rest until level 11, and then it’s still one use per short rest only. Doesn’t seem like a great trade off.

Glad someone mentioned this since it was the first thing I noticed. OP would be better off going for Swashbuckler or some other Rogue subclass that offers consistent damage since Bard Smites will be far too sparse to really give much benefit.

[adb82]

Glad someone mentioned this since it was the first thing I noticed. OP would be better off going for Swashbuckler or some other Rogue subclass that offers consistent damage since Bard Smites will be far too sparse to really give much benefit.

Yea it don't work...I'll go with other post for a bladesinger/rogue that was my original idea