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Doctor Despair
2021-02-06, 03:31 AM
https://y.yarn.co/79724af0-5238-4b17-8107-4c56cf52f043_text_hi.gif

There are a lot of ways to imbue a weapon with intelligence, but no ways (that I know of) to begin play as one.

Likewise, there are ways that feasibly would allow you trade your body for that of an intelligent magic weapon, but few that are available from an ECL appropriate to begin play.

However, a character with levels in Fiend of Possession can spend all day in an object (or creature, at a certain level) with no issue whatsoever. As a result, if you can enter the class soon enough, you can minimize the time spent not playing as a weapon. There are several races appropriate to enter, but the earliest I've seen that doesn't involve level-draining racial hitdie away before level 1 is to play as a Divine Minion (LA+1) Diabolus (LA+1) and taking three class levels that bestow the +5 base will save. As a result, we enter the class and a weapon by ECL 5 (or 4 with level-buy off), although admittedly you won't be doing much until the following level.

Once inside a weapon, you lose the ability to take physical actions, so you are relegated to contributing in ways that don't require physical actions. The following build is dedicated to optimizing this strategy while functioning as the strongest weapon possible:





Divine Minion (Sebek)
Diabolus






Stat
Array
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th
Final


Str
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Dex
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Con
8
-
-
-
-
-
8


Int
17
+1
-
-
-
-
18


Wis
17
-
+1
-
-
-
18


Cha
14
-
-
+1
+1
+1
17





HD
Class
Feats
Class Features
Weapon Stats (WBL)
FoP Stats
Item
Familiar
Stats
Legacy
Stats
Notes


1
Ardent
Practiced Manifester
Assume psionic mantles (Repose, Empty Mind; Guardian, Deaden Blow)
Masterwork Spiked Gauntlet: (305/2700)
-
-
-
At this level, we primarily contribute with our wildshape. As a Divine Minion, we can wildshape as a free action to return to full HP each round, and we have the physical strength of a crocodile, so we aren't an insignificant addition to the party. However, as a 1HD creature, we have to be careful not to be one-shot by the foes we go up against.


2
Dragon Shaman
-
Draconic aura +1 (Vigor, Senses, Power), totem dragon
+1 to Spiked Gauntlet: (2305/5400)
-
-
-
With the addition of Dragon Shaman, we can now provide the party with a boost to initiative and perception skills pre-combat, damage during combat, and heal everyone back to half +1 after combat. Apart from that, our strategy is more or less like level 1: gator-aid our party! I'll see myself out.


3
Ardent
Constant Guardian
Assume psionic mantle (Time, Empathic Transfer)
-
-
-
-
As our final level as an independent character, we get an extra boost to initiative, we can offer AC to an adjacent ally, and we can help heal allies with our Empathic Transfer (that we selected as a result of Practiced Manifester). Our will save is finally 5, so we are all set to kick things off after this.


4
Fiend of Possession
-
Ethereal form, hide presence, possess object
Masterwork (300) Fine Riverine Shortspear (1266.05) with +1 (2000), Changeling (2,000), and Sizing (5000): (12,871.05/13,000)
-
-
-
At this level we can afford the weapon of choice, and we can enter items. As a riverine item, we are immune to damage (save for a few higher-level magical sources), and as we are sizing and changeling, we can morph to suit any wielder that has proficiency. We can designate our wielder (or anyone adjacent to them) as the target of our Constant Guardian, and manifest our powers from within the item as well. Our draconic auras project to our wielder and friends, too. With our psionic focus, we can use the Guardian mantle ability to take a hit for our wielder if they happen to break through their buffed AC; we are immune to damage as a riverine item, so this is essentially a free hit every time we use it. Fluff-wise, I'd imagine it as the sword dragging itself through the air to parry the blow.


5
Fiend of Possession
Least Legacy
Curse, magic item
Ring of Sustenance (2,500) and Least Legacy Ritual (2,500) purchased: (17,871.05/19,000)
+2
-
Unceasing Servant
With our second level, we can now curse those who try to steal us, and buff ourselves in the hand of our wielder. We become a legacy item, conferring a lot of benefits, among which are even more durability: upon being destroyed, we leave behind fragments that are trivial to repair and reforge into the original item again. We take a Ring of Sustenance so that we don't have to leave the object to eat or drink, and we gain the use of Unceasing Servant to manipulate the environment around us without needing to leave the item. We can also have our servant check hallways for traps in lieu of a party rogue.


6
Fiend of Possession
Heighten Power
Control object
Spellblade (Disintegrate) on Spiked Gauntlets (6,000); Sudden Stunning added to weapon (2,000): (25,871.05/27,000)
+3
-
Featherfalling
With the addition of our spellblade, when we are targeted by a disintegrate spell, we are now immune -- and can retarget it if we wish. This leaves a rod of cancellation, sphere of annihilation, and mage's disjunction as possible ways to destroy our item (all high-level techniques, and all which should leave behind a shard to reforge from). We take heighten power to qualify for Mindbender later. Featherfalling, providing our wielder grips the spear firmly, should confer the benefits of featherfalling to them, too.


7
Fiend of Possession
-
Animate object, possess creature
Weapon enhancement increased to +2 (31,871.05/36,000)
+4
-
Resistance
Here we can possess creatures and our enhancement goes up, although that's less notable than the ability to animate our spear. It is sizing, so we can be a colossal animated object at will. This ability sadly stops functioning once the item gains sapience and becomes a creature, but for this and the next level, we can savor the surprise if need be. We can also use our possess creature ability to probe the memories of folks for interrogations.


8
Fiend of Possession
-
Ally or enemy, possess noncontinuous object
Weapon enhancement increased to +3 (41,871.05/49,000)
+5
-
Comprehend Languages
Our enhancement bonus has now caught up to our HD! We have comprehend languages constantly active, and we can possess a colossal noncontinuous object to help out our party in a pinch. More notable is the "Ally or Enemy" ability, ambiguously worded and as powerful as the DM allows it to be. As it is written, you can possess your wielder (or any allies) and grant a +4 profane bonus to each of their ability scores permanently, then return to your weapon. Is that balanced? Definitely not. Was it intended? Probably not; my intuition tells me they intended the buff to last only as long as you possess the creature, but they never actually included a sunset clause on the buff in the event that you left, nor a limit to the number of buffs you can apply (although the same source/type restriction stops them from stacking for the same ability score).


9
Fiend of Possession
Item Familiar
Control creature
Weapon enhancement increased to +4 (55,871.05/66,000)
+6
Invest life energy; invest skill ranks; sapience (10, 10, 12); senses; communication
-
Our enhancement has actually surpassed our HD, and we reach the capstone of our class just in time. Upon taking Item Familiar, our weapon becomes an intelligent item -- a creature, but also an item. As such, now must possess the creature. As we only sleep two hours each day and the weapon has no real means to resist or retaliate, we can slowly possess it over and over until such a time that it's essentially permanent. When we possess it, we can also use its abilities, which is notable because magical items can use their own abilities. We don't have any yet, but it will matter soon. As our item can't really be stolen or destroyed, it is a rare situation where we will be unlikely to be punished for fully investing our life energy and skill ranks for maximum benefits. Additionally, as our weapon is now an intelligent item, it has an ego score. When we possess and control the item, we should be able to have ego contests with our wielder if we choose to in order to gain "dominance" and control them without needing to possess them directly.


10
Mindbender, Psionic
-
Telepathy
Weapon enhancement increased to +5 (73,871.05/88,000)
+6
Lesser Power: Item can use detect magic at will
Restoration, Lesser
We get access to native telepathy a level earlier than we otherwise would (letting us communicate with our wielder effectively), we learn a new power (dealer's choice). We get access to detect magic at will, too, and Lesser Restoration a few times each day with a command word. Notably, we have to leave the item to use Lesser Restoration... until next level.


11
Legacy Champion
Lesser Legacy
Reduced ritual cost (lesser), bond of lore
Weapon enhancement increased to +6 (95,871.05/110,000)
+6
-
Intelligent Legacy, Major (Su); 120 feet darkvision/blindsense/hearing, common, common, 4 bonus languages, 18 int, 18 wis, 16 cha. Speech, telepathy. Three lesser powers (Constant Deathwatch, Major Image 1/day, Locate Object 3/day), two greater powers (detect thoughts at will, magic circle at will).
Our item's mental stats increase drastically, granting a slew of benefits. We get the power of speech, allowing us to use command-word powers. We have powerful sensory modes, and we get access to a slew of new powers (some sensory, some defensive, some general-use).


12
Legacy Champion
Mindsight
Replace legacy ability (least)
Weapon enhancement increased to +7 (121,871.05/150,000)
+7
-
Knock at will
Mindsight comes online here, giving us a massive sensory mode that we can warn our allies about with telepathy. We also get access to at-will knock, replacing the party rogue again in another capacity.


13
Legacy Champion
-
Extra legacy ability use (least)
Weapon enhancement increased to +9 (185,871.05/200,000)
+8
-
Melf's Acid Arrow at will
At this level, we get an at-will offensive mode for our actions. It's not the best attack, but we can perform it at-will, and it's acid damage (nice against objects), so it's a notable get.


14
Legacy Champion
Transfer Legacy
-
Weapon enhancement bonus increased to +10 (223,871.05/260,000)
+9
Increased Sapience; as level 11, but with +1 greater power (constant detect scrying) and +1 lesser power (cure moderate wounds on wielder 3/day). Mental stats all become 20.
Constant Obscurity
Item familiar gives our item another bump in intelligence, granting us a few new powers. We also become proof to divinations, and can detect when folks try. Transfer Legacy lets us pawn our abilities off on our wielder should they choose to activate them for some reason.


15
Legacy Champion
Legacy Focus
Replace legacy ability (lesser)
Ring of Mental Fortitude (333,871.05/340,000)
+10
-
-
We get mind blank without the immunity to divinations, but we already snagged a source of that last level. Our enhancement hits an astonishing +20.


16
Legacy Champion
-
Extra legacy ability use (lesser)
-
+11
-
Fireball 3/day
We get access to an offensive fireball 3x/day for all that it's wort at level 16. Enhancement can't stop, won't stop.


17
Legacy Champion
Greater Legacy
Reduced ritual cost (greater)
-
+11
-
Weapon enhancement increases to +7
Enhancement jumps up by +2; who needs BAB when you weapon can confer bonuses like these?


18
Legacy Champion
Quicken Legacy, Quicken Legacy
-
-
+12
Special Purpose: Defend chosen hero's type (True Resurrection on wielder 1/month)
-
We get access to true res should the worst come, and we can quicken our fireballs for added effect!


19
Legacy Champion
-
Extra legacy ability use (greater)
-
+13
-
-
Our enhancement goes up one more, setting us up for next level...


20
Legacy Champion
-
Replace legacy ability (greater)
-
+14
-
Weapon enhancement increases to +10
... when we cap out our enhancement bonus at +24!



Our wielder can save all their WBL for armor enhancements and other necessary items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Will you be the most valuable party member? No, definitely not; casters are had-and-shoulders above this. Will you be the most talkative party member? Well, for roleplay purposes you're essentially a mute from levels 4-9, so not so much a party face. On the other hand, will this character be fun for others to play with? I'd think so. It lends itself to a uniquely cooperative style of play, and auto-confirming everything that isn't a nat-1 will feel pretty good for your party member. In your hands (or, well, with you in their hands), any build can be heroic.

Troacctid
2021-02-06, 05:48 AM
This seems more complicated than the psionic sandwich (I did one of these builds for Villainous Competition III back in the day), but I guess it comes online earlier.

aglondier
2021-02-06, 08:29 AM
Couldn't you have the intelligent weapon from the get go, and have it only be able to slowly invest its power into the vessel (meat body) it has dominated oover a period of time...ie as the character "levels up" it gains more access to the true power of the weapon, as it shapes and conditions the body to channel its power. ?

Doctor Despair
2021-02-06, 11:47 PM
This seems more complicated than the psionic sandwich (I did one of these builds for Villainous Competition III back in the day), but I guess it comes online earlier.

Here's the build in question (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19121458&postcount=67), for any onlookers who were curious as I was. Adamantine Telepath looks like a fun build too. :) Definitely more powerful by ECL 17 when it comes online, as you have full manifesting while the Hero's Weapon is relegated to mostly just the abilities that Item Familiar / Intelligent Items / Legacy Weapons / FoP can grant.


Couldn't you have the intelligent weapon from the get go, and have it only be able to slowly invest its power into the vessel (meat body) it has dominated oover a period of time...ie as the character "levels up" it gains more access to the true power of the weapon, as it shapes and conditions the body to channel its power. ?

With DM fiat, yes. An intelligent item doesn't have a listed level-adjustment, so while a hypothetical where an intelligent item has an ego score too high for a character to pass absent a nat 20 is very possible and much simpler, the item would be an NPC by default. It was my intention to build a rules-legal character that was playable as an item from relatively early in the campaign (ECL 6, or 5 with level-buy-off).

aglondier
2021-02-07, 06:35 AM
With DM fiat, yes. An intelligent item doesn't have a listed level-adjustment, so while a hypothetical where an intelligent item has an ego score too high for a character to pass absent a nat 20 is very possible and much simpler, the item would be an NPC by default. It was my intention to build a rules-legal character that was playable as an item from relatively early in the campaign (ECL 6, or 5 with level-buy-off).

Soooo...rather than discuss it with your GM...you are trying to find a way to force him to accept a raw but rediculous character...



...have you ever heard of the Trill? Perhaps the Tok'ra? You don't need to be able to overpower the host if they have agreed to be your host and willingly gave up control.
The Item is the character and provides the mental attributes, the body just provides the physical attributes.
The item has the skill and knowledge, it provides the source of any arcane power, or the connection to the divine.
The body is inexperienced to begin with, and gradually acclimates to the power. But without the item, they are limited. If the item grants power equivalent to a paladin, then the body would be equivalent to a fallen paladin without it. If the item is a sorceror, then the body is that but unable to cast without it.
You aren't making a god-thing, you're making a regular character with an interesting back story and an unusual "resurrection" method.

Doctor Despair
2021-02-07, 11:01 AM
Soooo...rather than discuss it with your GM...you are trying to find a way to force him to accept a raw but rediculous character...


Absolutely not. I just enjoy building characters and optimizing concepts within the limits of RAW. Like the other characters in my sig, this may or may not ever see gameplay. They'd be fun to play, I'm sure, but that's not why I build them; I build them for the joy and challenge of building them. In my most recent campaign, I played a generic bard with little to no optimization because it fit the party's level of optimization.



...have you ever heard of the Trill? Perhaps the Tok'ra? You don't need to be able to overpower the host if they have agreed to be your host and willingly gave up control.
The Item is the character and provides the mental attributes, the body just provides the physical attributes.
The item has the skill and knowledge, it provides the source of any arcane power, or the connection to the divine.
The body is inexperienced to begin with, and gradually acclimates to the power. But without the item, they are limited. If the item grants power equivalent to a paladin, then the body would be equivalent to a fallen paladin without it. If the item is a sorceror, then the body is that but unable to cast without it.
You aren't making a god-thing, you're making a regular character with an interesting back story and an unusual "resurrection" method.

Some Googling yields that those are from Star Trek and Stargate respectively. Both excellent shows (although I prefer the latter), and both fine design-chassises if you decide to homebrew a simpler version that can be online earlier. I believe that without homebrew, you'd need to either win an ego contest or get dominate person as an sla in order to effectively carry out the concept though.

Segev
2021-02-07, 12:10 PM
When it comes to playing an intelligent weapon, the thing that always stymies me is the question of what that play looks like. You have next to no actions of your own, and at best get to talk to others with only vocal contributions to decision-making. Yes, you may have powers you can deny use of, and might have a spell or two, but you're not choosing where to go or what to do and you're part of another character for most purposes.

Maybe it works with a psion or a mare who can skip components? Then you can cast spells and just don't get to determine your own tactical position.

Doctor Despair
2021-02-07, 12:40 PM
When it comes to playing an intelligent weapon, the thing that always stymies me is the question of what that play looks like. You have next to no actions of your own, and at best get to talk to others with only vocal contributions to decision-making. Yes, you may have powers you can deny use of, and might have a spell or two, but you're not choosing where to go or what to do and you're part of another character for most purposes.

Maybe it works with a psion or a mare who can skip components? Then you can cast spells and just don't get to determine your own tactical position.

The character concept is of more interest to me, but I enjoy playing a supporting role to friends. There's something to be said for helping your friends feel like their character is awesome, you know?

With that said, this build can leave the weapon at will, or animate the weapon, so you do retain some agency outside of your psionic powers, special abilities, and talking.

Serafina
2021-02-09, 01:34 PM
It is both Pathfinder and 3rd party, but the Spirit Blade (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spirit-blade) is exactly this.

You turn yourself into a weapon (or, with a variant, are just permanently that weapon). You can possess people that hold you (obviously, you are not going to use this on friends). You have telepathic communication with people, and can take magic to make illusions for communication as well. You can use your own actions to make attacks with yourself when wielded, so you have something to do and are also a really desirable weapon! You can impart your wielder with greater skill in many ways (BAB, feats, proficiency, skills). And you are magical and get to cast some spells (though you are no primary caster).

In essence, this is exactly what you want. It being Pathfinder can just be ignored for the most part - backwards conversion is trivial. It being a 3rd-party system requires some homebrewing if you want to ignore it - but this is basically a 1/4th/Paladin-level caster with a bunch of bonus combat feats, chassis wise, if you don't want to use the Spheres system and homebrew your own class out of this.

Prime32
2021-02-11, 09:51 AM
If you have some way to change their typing, dvati (also from Dragon Compendium) are one of the best Fiend of Possession races.

Pathfinder has the option to gain intelligent items as cohorts (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership/#Other_Cohort_Types).

For another Pathfinder option: it's technically possible to apply the Petitioner (https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Petitioner) template to an intelligent item. This gives it racial HD and a fixed CR of 1, making it playable under PF's monster PC rules. No physical ability scores, but it that bothers you then you can take a level of Synthesist Summoner.

Doctor Despair
2021-02-11, 10:14 AM
I was looking at Dvati, but I had a hard time finding a way to get them an alignment subtype without the prohibitively expensive Savage Species rituals or a ton of levels in a few specific prestige classes. Either way, it delayed entry to FoP by a lot :smallfrown:

Aceon
2022-03-18, 04:44 PM
A rather interesting build. Would you consider sharing some more of your notes in detail? Specifically the various ways the different parts works together? For example, how does you gain the various weapon enhancements? How the different methods stack up? How you gain weapon enhancements at a level higher than normal by level and even higher than what is possible at +10 enhancement.

Any other synergies and or assumptions used throughout the build?

Although I haven't played in many years I am interested in a theoretical weapon for my favorite old character and was considering using the leadership feat to gain something like a cohort that matches more or less by your build.

Also I have been reading some Chinese cultivation stories (wuxia and xianxia stories) where they have flying swords and can ride them as well as mentally direct them, sometimes dozens of them at a time, like a swarm. And I have been toying with various ideas and concepts in D&D that would do that in different ways. Spiritual Weapon being the most obvious at low levels as well as a chain spell of the same at higher levels would be the simplest way to achieve something like this, but a chain spell Spiritual Weapon would introduce some questions about how many actions it would take to re-direct one or all of them to a new opponent? And or could all of them attack the same person at the same time?

There was one concept in these stories that is most interesting and that is the concept of a Sword Spirit.

Some of the most powerful swords have an intelligence. Of course this is easily replicated by intelligent items in D&D...however, some of the Sword Spirits in Chinese fantasy can take human form!

So when I read your build I immediately thought of gaining a human formed Sword Spirit as a cohort for a character. I think it is an interesting idea and while I don't know that I would ever play D&D again if I did I would want one! Who wouldn't?! :)

So, I want to understand your build better, how it works and so on, so I can develop it slowly.

rel
2022-03-20, 11:08 AM
A simple option is to just play an animated object. Dragon 293 includes ECL's for a bunch of monsters including animated objects allowing you to simply begin play as a sword if you want to.

Doctor Despair
2022-03-24, 07:10 AM
A rather interesting build. Would you consider sharing some more of your notes in detail? Specifically the various ways the different parts works together? For example, how does you gain the various weapon enhancements? How the different methods stack up? How you gain weapon enhancements at a level higher than normal by level and even higher than what is possible at +10 enhancement.

The build uses Fiend of Possession to apply the various enhancements; Legacy Champion levels stack with FoP levels to determine the maximum enhancement bestowed.

Was there anything else specific you wanted to know more about, or that seemed confusing?

liquidformat
2022-03-24, 08:48 AM
Pretty cool, could make for an interesting cohort, or you could just posses your cohort.

...have you ever heard of the Trill? Perhaps the Tok'ra? You don't need to be able to overpower the host if they have agreed to be your host and willingly gave up control.
Um what? The whole idea of the Tok'ra is sharing with the host not 'willingly giving up control'. Sure their are times when the Tok'ra are driving or when the host is but the idea is more sharing under a partnership...

Aceon
2022-04-15, 11:28 PM
The build uses Fiend of Possession to apply the various enhancements; Legacy Champion levels stack with FoP levels to determine the maximum enhancement bestowed.

Was there anything else specific you wanted to know more about, or that seemed confusing?

I get it now. Thanks very much! I did have to spend a few hours researching but I grok it. Thanks much!

If I ever play again I will talk to the DM about a beautiful Aasimar sword spirit.

Aceon
2022-04-21, 10:29 PM
Eh...I am still struggling with this. Would you be so kind as to list which Weapon of Legacy powers/abilities that you chose at each level in order to get the corresponding enhancement bonuses according to the chart on your build? The FOP I can easily understand, but the Weapons of Legacy are hard to grasp even when I keep reading the relevant sections of the book and re-reading the "Building a Weapon of Legacy, for Dummies" thread.

For example at 14th level you have listed:

14 Legacy Champion Transfer Legacy - Weapon enhancement bonus increased to +10 (223,871.05/260,000)

Can you detail precisely how you came up to +10 enhancement bonus at 14th level?

And I am asking separately and as unrelated to FOP bonuses which are +9 at 14th level.

Doctor Despair
2022-04-22, 09:49 AM
As I remember, it was using the normal Legacy Weapon abilities, as legacy weapons can have improved enhancement bonuses at high levels.

JyP
2022-04-22, 12:43 PM
As I remember, it was using the normal Legacy Weapon abilities, as legacy weapons can have improved enhancement bonuses at high levels.
I remember a build I submitted, a Legacy Weapon with enough Ego to overpower its wielders : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Qc1mn43n-uyForSCq8YOJ2RVB6j9x0Y9mj6MtQznrmY/edit

Loosely inspired by French RPG Bloodlust, where you basically plays the magic weapon, not really the wielders.

LeoStyxx
2023-09-07, 10:06 PM
Hey, not sure if it's too late to add, but I found a chart in Arms and Armor, it's d20 supp from Bastion Press, page 52 gives a table for how to level up intelligent items

made this account to share this bit, also first post and no idea how to use this forum, so please forgive any mistakes

Peelee
2023-09-08, 07:23 AM
The Mod on the Silver Mountain: It is too late to add.