Bladesinger/rogue

[adb82]

Hello everyone,
This is my 2nd try to multiclass a bladesinger. After fail with the bard I'll give a try to the rogue that was my first idea. The concept is kinda similar: shadow blade and anything gonna give advantage (familiar, greater invisibility etc), counterspell (that even without jack of all trades should work decent) and shield ready for reaction.

The stats would be:

Str 9
Dex 16 (+2)
Cos 12
Int 16 (+1)
Wis 10
Cha 12

The progression should be 7 or 8 bladesinger/x rogue (swashbuckler) or 2 or 3 bladesinger/x rogue (arcane trickster). Asi's all for maximize first dex than int to 20 or maybe just one for war caster.

My doubt is if choose arcane trickster or swashbuckler...arcane trickster give me slots progression (and let me leave bladesinger earlier as I don't need second attack so much, giving me more sneak attack at the cost of slower spell progression), while swashbuckler give me auto sneak attack and sort of mobile feat a bit underpowered but very useful, plus earlier use of greater invisibility (that I'm gonna probably lose with just 2 LV of bladesinger) and counterspell.

Ps in case I choose arcane trickster i can think to put 12 wis and 10 cha as i don't have anymorethe bonus on initiative from cha.

[MaxWilson]

Roguesingers are awesome fun! (Rogue 2/SCAG Bladesinger X, Expertise in Athletics and Stealth) One of the best ways to take advantage of Bladesinger v1's Extra Attack is to use it to grapple/shove to cheaply neutralize an enemy without spending slots or concentration on it, and of course the Invisibility + Stealth combo is lovely too. Better than a pure Rogue in almost every way that matters (sneak attack does not matter) and almost as good as a dedicated wizard.

[bendking]

As I've posted in many posts before, I made the Arcane Blade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24860925&postcount=3) build which should satisfy your needs.


almost as good as a dedicated wizard.
What is the split here? Rogue 2/Bladesinger X?

[Gignere]

As I've posted in many posts before, I made the Arcane Blade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24860925&postcount=3) build which should satisfy your needs.

That’s a good build. I’m playing an AT 4 / 2 BS right now and it is awesome. I am the tank although I have the lowest hps in the party.

Don’t count on crits all that much I mean ~14% doesn’t happen all that often about 1 in 7 attacks. That means you can expect to crit in like every other combat.

However with EA what you can expect is to never miss which is important for a rogue because all you have is one big hit.

Also don’t be greedy and looking at the wizard spells at higher level. Decide what you want to do like I want to hit for consistent high and randomly awesome damage. This means more rogue than BS. You are rather limited by action economy, if you’re busy casting spells you may find you’re not playing the character you want in game.

However if all you want is some enhance movement than all you want is a couple of levels of rogue maybe 3 levels, or 4 for a feat.

[MaxWilson]

What is the split here? Rogue 2/Bladesinger X?

Yes. Rogue 2/SCAG Bladesinger v1 X. I'm ignoring Tasha's.

[bendking]

Yes. Rogue 2/SCAG Bladesinger v1 X. I'm ignoring Tasha's.

In that case, I would simply go Bladesinger X and get Skill Expert (Stealth) if I were you since Cunning Action isn't amazing for a build that uses both Shadow Blade and Bladesong.
If Expertise in Athletics is important then I would still only take Rogue 1.

[MaxWilson]

In that case, I would simply go Bladesinger X and get Skill Expert (Stealth) if I were you since Cunning Action isn't amazing for a build that uses both Shadow Blade and Bladesong.

Skill Expert doesn't exist outside of Tasha's, and elves can't get Prodigy. Also, Cunning Action is awesome and you want it more than you want Shadow Blade.

[Gignere]

Yes. Rogue 2/SCAG Bladesinger v1 X. I'm ignoring Tasha's.

You are aware that “version 1” of the Bladesinger is homebrew now. Because they issued an errata for SCAG so there is only one version of the Bladesinger.

[adb82]

As I've posted in many posts before, I made the Arcane Blade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24860925&postcount=3) build which should satisfy your needs.


What is the split here? Rogue 2/Bladesinger X?

Yep that's exactly what I mean, thanks. 😊
One only thing, I finally decided to not play an elf, but a thematic race created for this campaign (that anyway get +2 dex +1 int), so I'll not get elven accuracy. I'm thinking if it's better to take a +2 dex instead or warcaster/sentinel as first asi...

[MaxWilson]

You are aware that “version 1” of the Bladesinger is homebrew now.

Apparently we have different definitions of "homebrew" but yes, I am aware that future printings of SCAG will use Tasha's version of the Bladesinger.

[Gignere]

Yep that's exactly what I mean, thanks. 😊
One only thing, I finally decided to not play an elf, but a thematic race created for this campaign (that anyway get +2 dex +1 int), so I'll not get elven accuracy. I'm thinking if it's better to take a +2 dex instead or warcaster/sentinel as first asi...

Until you are decently tanky which does take some spell resources and/or better equipment you probably don’t want to stay in melee all the time to use sentinel to its fullest.

+2 dex is great and resilient con is also good since you’re be in melee and concentrating on spells eventually.

[adb82]

Until you are decently tanky which does take some spell resources and/or better equipment you probably don’t want to stay in melee all the time to use sentinel to its fullest.

+2 dex is great and resilient con is also good since you’re be in melee and concentrating on spells eventually.

So starting 19 dex and then, after get mobile, i go to get something like "athlete" or "weapon master" (first time ever I would get one of those 2 feats 😅)? Or i stay 19 dex and pick something else? At this point maybe resilient (cos), +2 int, +2 int seem the better way...

Ps if i understand well the rule he can make a first normal attack and then an extra attack using BB or GFB? Is this correct?

[Gignere]

So starting 19 dex and then, after get mobile, i go to get something like "athlete" or "weapon master" (first time ever I would get one of those 2 feats 😅)? Or i stay 19 dex and pick something else?

Ps if i understand well the rule he can make a first normal attack and then an extra attack using BB or GFB? Is this correct?

I don’t think the order matters for the cantrip attack. If you want to use more than one weapon you can consider weapon master.

[adb82]

I don’t think the order matters, well if you want to use more than one weapon you can consider weapon master.

For use more than one weapon i think I'm gonna need war caster, that i can get instead then resilient (cos)...but then there is no more space for maximize dex.

[Gignere]

For use more than one weapon i think I'm gonna need war caster, that i can get instead then resilient (cos)...but then there is no more space for maximize dex.

Resilient con on the long run is better than warcaster, and I can count on the number of hands how many times enemies triggered an AO. So the second bullet point of Warcaster basically never comes into play. The few times enemies did run they always take the disengage action.

[adb82]

Resilient con on the long run is better than warcaster, and I can count on the number of hands how many times enemies triggered an AO. So the second bullet point of Warcaster basically never comes into play. The few times enemies did run they always take the disengage action.

Than it's probably better stay with one weapon that have to be a shadow blade...but I'm not sure BB and GFB apply to SB...

[Gignere]

Than it's probably better stay with one weapon that have to be a shadow blade...but I'm not sure BB and GFB apply to SB...

Once you get BS extra attack you can basically still combine it with blade trips, even if your DM rules that Shadowblade can’t cast bladetrips. The order just need to be clear

1. Attack with Shadowblade
2. Blade trip with any weapon in your other hand, that’s not Shadowblade.
3. You satisfied the requisites for TWF, so bonus action attack with Shadowblade.

[bendking]

Once you get BS extra attack you can basically still combine it with blade trips, even if your DM rules that Shadowblade can’t cast bladetrips. The order just need to be clear

1. Attack with Shadowblade
2. Blade trip with any weapon in your other hand, that’s not Shadowblade.
3. You satisfied the requisites for TWF, so bonus action attack with Shadowblade.
The issue with this is that you can only do that on turn 3 assuming you're activating Bladesong.

[Gignere]

The issue with this is that you can only do that on turn 3 assuming you're activating Bladesong.

Unfortunately this is true.

[adb82]

Unluckly as my dm don't allow me to cast without holding my focus in one hand and he won't allow me to use a weapon as focus as he don't accept the draw and pick weapon as "free actions", i don't think I can TWF...except maybe with the staff, as i think i can use it as arcane focus...but it don't have finesse...so would be totally useless.

[adb82]

One more question: is it not worth it to get directly till LV 7 bladesinger for Greater invisibility? The Feat progression is delayed too much?

[Gignere]

One more question: is it not worth it to get directly till LV 7 bladesinger for Greater invisibility? The Feat progression is delayed too much?

You can’t use both Shadowblade and Greater Invisibility at the same time. GI does boost your defenses and works in normal lighting to grant you advantage. However if your vision is to fight with primarily SB, it does conflict with that.

[adb82]

You can’t use both Shadowblade and Greater Invisibility at the same time. GI does boost your defenses and works in normal lighting to grant you advantage. However if your vision is to fight with primarily SB, it does conflict with that.

Well yes, mostly of time will be using shadow blade, but i thought to use GI when have no dim light or darkness, even yes, probably i can try to use the familiar in that situation and don't delay still more the asi.

[adb82]

As I've posted in many posts before, I made the Arcane Blade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24860925&postcount=3) build which should satisfy your needs.



I have been "studying" those days about this build, and i came out with some considerations. Go for 9 LV dip in rogue give me that very nice ability to force saves on my spells with disadvantage, but it don't give me access to simulacrum that it's a very powerful spell (and im not mentioning foresight or disaster Blade bcs multiclassing there is no way to take them even, especially foresight, it's really a broke spell), especially for a bladesinger that can let him do the support stuff while he think about dpr with hight LV shadow blade or more probably tenser transformation...or spells. The point here i suppose it's decide to stop at LV 5 or 9 rogue (stop to rogue 7 is not an option I suppose bcs it delay asi and only 3 LV dip it's too few for be worth it) as u writed in your guide. So, in practice, magic ambush + evasion + 2d6 sneak attack or simulacrum (3 LV later) and higher spells lv and slots? Which are actually pro and cons of both path? I actually don't know how useful can be magical ambush bcs i never played it, while i saw playing simulacrum and it can make sorcerers really cry, regretting to didn't choose wizard instead. Thematically magic ambush looks more nice and that's already a point for me, but i would like to understand better what this character is expected to do with it, which spells he gonna cast often that get benefits from magical ambush (except hold person and hold monster, but it both cost one action and use concentration, fireball yes, charme persons maybe, hypnotic pattern, but not much more i think 🤔)? If we compare this with simulacrum few LV later seem like there is no game...so, i hope I'm missing something really good about magical ambush.

Ps with this starting stat:

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 16
Sag 10
Car 8

asi progression can be also +2 dex, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 int (or dex), making resilient (con) still more good.

I Can't find the space for mobile, but I'm assuming canning action can do the work as well and with this ac it's not so necessary.

The real doubt keep being if stop at AT 5 or keep going till AT 9...

[adb82]

Thinking also on a more malee focused build like:

Bladesinger 6/ x arcane trickster.

Can this work?

Edit it don't work enought well. The kind way i think is bladesinger 6/ At 5/bladesinger x. But at this point maybe better go straight bladesinger.

[Gignere]

Thinking also on a more malee focused build like:

Bladesinger 6/ x arcane trickster.

Can this work?

Edit it don't work enought well. The kind way i think is bladesinger 6/ At 5/bladesinger x. But at this point maybe better go straight bladesinger.

I’m currently playing one that I plan for BS 6 / AT 9 and I am very pleased with it so far. I am AT 4 / BS 2 at the moment. High AC, great mobility, solid damage, and lots of utility outside of combat.

I wanted to play more of a magical striker and not a spell caster that can occasionally stand in melee and the AT / BS split is really hitting all the right spots I wanted in game.

[adb82]

I’m currently playing one that I plan for BS 6 / AT 9 and I am very pleased with it so far. I am AT 4 / BS 2 at the moment. High AC, great mobility, solid damage, and lots of utility outside of combat.

I wanted to play more of a magical striker and not a spell caster that can occasionally stand in melee and the AT / BS split is really hitting all the right spots I wanted in game.

As AT 4 BS 2 you have expertise that is nice, canning action that is nice but with that AC not always needed, 2d6 SA with which you can deal 1d8 rapier + 1d8 BB (assuming it gonna move) + 2d6 SA +1d6 off hand + 5 (if you already maximized dex somehow) = 25
A pure bladesinger at LV 6 can already cast 3rd LV shadow blade, he gonna deal 3d8 (SB) + 1D8 rapier + 2d8 BB (if it gonna move) + 1d8 off hand + 10 = 45

Plus you are not a full caster anymore.

it's also true that LV 6 it's s big boost for BS and that before the difference it's not that big and probably first few LV your pg is better than a pure BS in melee and that after get shadow blade, you can even deal some few hp more than a pure BS in melee.

Going on at LV 11 you ll probably get to AT 5/BS 6

so you gonna finally cast shadow blade and attack 2 times, so 3d8 + 1d8 + 2d8 + 1d6 + 3d6 + 10 = 58

A pure bladesinger can cast SB of 5 or 6 LV, that mean 8d8 + 1d8 + 10 = 55

Plus again, he have spell from 6 LV while you still are playing with 3rd lv spells and 4th LV spell slots.

Still going on bladesinger get simulacrum 2 LV later and can use a 4d8 shadow blade while hasted or if he find a good sword TT and haste at same time dealing around 12d8 + 1d8 +10 = 75 melee damage per turn at LV 13 and he still can choose to make cast anything else, till lv 7 spells, to the simulacrum if he don't want to cast, while the AT/BS at LV 15 get 1 use per long rest of 4d8 SB and so 8d8 + 1d6 + 10 + 5d6 = 71 for one minute, than less.
Plus pure bladesinger even being 2 LV weaker will have better AC hasting himself and more mobility, without neither mention the full spell progression and one asi more.

As i said I started with the idea to multiclass it with a rogue or with a bard, but the more I think the more seem this class is better if played pure even from melee side.

Just 5 LV of AT maybe can work, as it keep simulacrum and add something from rogue...but I'm not that sure this things from rogue it's worth 5 LV delay of simulacrum and some other good spells.

Ps I'm talking about a build till LV 20 of course, or anyway till hight LV, stopping earlier things can change.

[Gignere]

As AT 4 BS 2 you have expertise that is nice, canning action that is nice but with that AC not always needed, 2d6 SA with which you can deal 1d8 rapier + 1d8 BB (assuming it gonna move) + 2d6 SA +1d6 off hand + 5 (if you already maximized dex somehow) = 25
A pure bladesinger at LV 6 can already cast 3rd LV shadow blade, he gonna deal 3d8 (SB) + 1D8 rapier + 2d8 BB (if it gonna move) + 1d8 off hand + 10 = 45

Plus you are not a full caster anymore.

it's also true that LV 6 it's s big boost for BS and that before the difference it's not that big and probably first few LV your pg is better than a pure BS in melee and that after get shadow blade, you can even deal some few hp more than a pure BS in melee.

Going on at LV 11 you ll probably get to AT 5/BS 6

so you gonna finally cast shadow blade and attack 2 times, so 3d8 + 1d8 + 2d8 + 1d6 + 3d6 + 10 = 58

A pure bladesinger can cast SB of 5 or 6 LV, that mean 8d8 + 1d8 + 10 = 55

Plus again, he have spell from 6 LV while you still are playing with 3rd lv spells and 4th LV spell slots.

Still going on bladesinger get simulacrum 2 LV later and can use a 4d8 shadow blade while hasted or if he find a good sword TT and haste at same time dealing around 12d8 + 1d8 +10 = 75 melee damage per turn at LV 13 and he still can choose to make cast anything else, till lv 7 spells, to the simulacrum if he don't want to cast, while the AT/BS at LV 15 get 1 use per long rest of 4d8 SB and so 8d8 + 1d6 + 10 + 5d6 = 71 for one minute, than less.
Plus pure bladesinger even being 2 LV weaker will have better AC hasting himself and more mobility, without neither mention the full spell progression and one asi more.

As i said I started with the idea to multiclass it with a rogue or with a bard, but the more I think the more seem this class is better if played pure even from melee side.

Just 5 LV of AT maybe can work, as it keep simulacrum and add something from rogue...but I'm not that sure this things from rogue it's worth 5 LV delay of simulacrum and some other good spells.

Ps I'm talking about a build till LV 20 of course, or anyway till hight LV, stopping earlier things can change.

Yes but at level 7 I get to use SB as well so 1 level behind and also you only have 3 level 3 spell slots so you may not even be able to use it for every fight. At level 8 I’ll be picking up sentinel, that will give me pretty reliable offturn sneak attacks.

So my maximum level 11 damage will actually be 3d8 x 2 + 2d8 + 4d6 + 4 x 2 and offturn sneak of 3d8 + 3d6 + 4. 58 + 28 = 86 damage.

At level 15 I will have most encounters another 14 points of damage for 100 damage. For the one encounter I can blow my 5th level spell slot I can get another 13.5 damage.

Obviously predicated on sentinel happening but I am team with another front line melee so it should happen quite often.

Not that pure Bladesinger can’t get sentinel but because you need to max two abilities it is harder for a pure BS to fit it in.

Also if your simulacrum leans on Shadowblade it would become useless quite fast because simulacrums can’t regain spell slots. You’re better off casting simulacrum on a class without spell slots.

Yes my current game is expected to go to level 15 most games don’t go all the way to 20.

[bendking]

I have been "studying" those days about this build, and i came out with some considerations. Go for 9 LV dip in rogue give me that very nice ability to force saves on my spells with disadvantage, but it don't give me access to simulacrum that it's a very powerful spell (and im not mentioning foresight or disaster Blade bcs multiclassing there is no way to take them even, especially foresight, it's really a broke spell), especially for a bladesinger that can let him do the support stuff while he think about dpr with hight LV shadow blade or more probably tenser transformation...or spells. The point here i suppose it's decide to stop at LV 5 or 9 rogue (stop to rogue 7 is not an option I suppose bcs it delay asi and only 3 LV dip it's too few for be worth it) as u writed in your guide. So, in practice, magic ambush + evasion + 2d6 sneak attack or simulacrum (3 LV later) and higher spells lv and slots? Which are actually pro and cons of both path? I actually don't know how useful can be magical ambush bcs i never played it, while i saw playing simulacrum and it can make sorcerers really cry, regretting to didn't choose wizard instead. Thematically magic ambush looks more nice and that's already a point for me, but i would like to understand better what this character is expected to do with it, which spells he gonna cast often that get benefits from magical ambush (except hold person and hold monster, but it both cost one action and use concentration, fireball yes, charme persons maybe, hypnotic pattern, but not much more i think 🤔)? If we compare this with simulacrum few LV later seem like there is no game...so, i hope I'm missing something really good about magical ambush.

Ps with this starting stat:

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 15
Int 16
Sag 10
Car 8

asi progression can be also +2 dex, resilient (con), +2 int, +2 int (or dex), making resilient (con) still more good.

I Can't find the space for mobile, but I'm assuming canning action can do the work as well and with this ac it's not so necessary.

The real doubt keep being if stop at AT 5 or keep going till AT 9...

Yes, Wizards are the strongest class in the game and Simulacrum is the most broken spell in the game. If all you care about is pure power, you should play Bladesinger 20.

[adb82]

Yes but at level 7 I get to use SB as well so 1 level behind and also you only have 3 level 3 spell slots so you may not even be able to use it for every fight. At level 8 I’ll be picking up sentinel, that will give me pretty reliable offturn sneak attacks.

So my maximum level 11 damage will actually be 3d8 x 2 + 2d8 + 4d6 + 4 x 2 and offturn sneak of 3d8 + 3d6 + 4. 58 + 28 = 86 damage.

At level 15 I will have most encounters another 14 points of damage for 100 damage. For the one encounter I can blow my 5th level spell slot I can get another 13.5 damage.

Obviously predicated on sentinel happening but I am team with another front line melee so it should happen quite often.

Not that pure Bladesinger can’t get sentinel but because you need to max two abilities it is harder for a pure BS to fit it in.

Also if your simulacrum leans on Shadowblade it would become useless quite fast because simulacrums can’t regain spell slots. You’re better off casting simulacrum on a class without spell slots.

Yes my current game is expected to go to level 15 most games don’t go all the way to 20.

At LV 7 you ll use SB 2D8, while soon a BS can cast it at 4d8. at LV 11 you start using it at 3d8 when a BS use already 4d8

Sentinel is good for make more SA, if you DM make you trigger OA, but normally there are not so much OA in a fight except you are using a polearm (still better with PAM + Sentinel that it's a great combo) and i don't think your character do.

So at LV 11, assuming you are using 2 weapons and that one of this is a 3d8 SB, you deal 3d8 (SB) + 1d8 rapier) +3d8 (BB) +4d6 (SA) +1d8 (off hand) +8 (i remind you that you can't attack twice with SB if you want apply BB too) = 62 + eventually off turn SA sometimes that, being good, it happen half of times (but much more less in reality), so ill add half of the sentinel damage every turn (and I'm being really generous) for a total of 76.

A Bladesinger deal 4d8 (SB) + 1d8 (rapier) + 5d8 (BB 11 LV) + 1D8 (off hand) + 10 (he can already had maximized dex at this point bcs he dont take sentinel (or he can take sentinel too, making his melee damage output be above yours lol) and he have an asi more, having more ac and more bonus to hit than you) for a total of 65.
So even being generous, in the moment you should shine more against a pure Bladesinger in melee, the difference it's still so few (11 hp per turn that honestly it's not bad, but believe me, i was generous considering an off turn sneak attack every 2 turns, they can don't provoke OA at all, you can miss, you can have already spended your reaction on shield, absorb elements or uncanny dodge, you maybe don't have advantage or any of the circumstances that trigger SA etc etc, and, especially if you are flanking him with an ally, he ll never trigger OA, bcs move would mean get 2 OA and probably die).

About simulacrum, once it finish spell slots you use 12 hours for cast it again, but it's anyway worth it to use for copy yourself (the wizard), a melee simulacrum with half hp and without magic equipment? It makes this spell useless. Maybe a ranged rogue, but anyway copy yourself it keep being much more stronger.


Yes, Wizards are the strongest class in the game and Simulacrum is the most broken spell in the game. If all you care about is pure power, you should play Bladesinger 20.

Not at all, "power" is not the one I care. I was searching a way for make the Bladesinger a bit more efficient in melee damage giving up some spell power, but seem even moving it up with AC the damage don't grow enough for be worth it. Even in your build you get first 6 LV BS, that in my opinion is better than split with AT from beginning, at LV 9 BS can cast already 1 SB 4d8 and 3 SB 3d8 (and of course he not gonna use all this slots for SB), while you have only 1 minute at 3d8 +3d6, than at LV 11 BS keep having more slots for 4d8 SB, and you keep having 1 slot with 3d8 + 4d6. At LV 12 you finally get some slots more...but at LV 13 there is no game anymore. The melee output it's not that different to be worth the multiclass, except you are fishing for expertise, canning action (nice but with that Armor class do you really need it?) and uncanny dodge (nice again but shield and absorb elements make your reaction a bit busy and more thinking about sentinel as the build above). You can't go more than this with AT if you don't want lose simulacrum, if you go more AT you get evasion (good) and magic ambush, but you lose the strongest spell in the game. This said, I'm really a fun of rugues, it's my favourite class from 1st edition, but multiclass should give benefits above malus or it's not worth. For thematic choice i can play also a barbarian/wizard, but i have to know that he ll never be better or even near to a pure barb or wizard. While multiclass rogue with BS is viable, is anyway not optimal as seem, at least in my opinion, that BS is stronger (mostly of times also in melee) if played pure.

At same time if you compare him with a pure AC of course it's better...depends from where you start: "I'm trying to make the AT stronger with this multiclass (or anyway I'm getting to do something that AT can't do, or i want to do this before so I dip BS)", than it work, but if I start from "I'm trying to make BS stronger in melee" than that build with AT don't work anymore so well, bcs BS have too much to lose maybe and too few to get from it.

[Gignere]

At LV 7 you ll use SB 2D8, while soon a BS can cast it at 4d8. at LV 11 you start using it at 3d8 when a BS use already 4d8

Sentinel is good for make more SA, if you DM make you trigger OA, but normally there are not so much OA in a fight except you are using a polearm (still better with PAM + Sentinel that it's a great combo) and i don't think your character do.

So at LV 11, assuming you are using 2 weapons and that one of this is a 3d8 SB, you deal 3d8 (SB) + 1d8 rapier) +3d8 (BB) +4d6 (SA) +1d8 (off hand) +8 (i remind you that you can't attack twice with SB if you want apply BB too) = 62 + eventually off turn SA sometimes that, being good, it happen half of times (but much more less in reality), so ill add half of the sentinel damage every turn (and I'm being really generous) for a total of 76.

A Bladesinger deal 4d8 (SB) + 1d8 (rapier) + 5d8 (BB 11 LV) + 1D8 (off hand) + 10 (he can already had maximized dex at this point bcs he dont take sentinel (or he can take sentinel too, making the melee damage output perfectly same lol) and he have an asi more, having more ac and more bonus to hit than you) for a total of 65.
So even being generous, in the moment you should shine more against a pure Bladesinger in melee, the difference it's still so few (9 hp per turn and believe me, i was generous considering an off turn sneak attack every 2 turns, they can don't provoke OA at all, you can miss, you can have already spended your reaction on shield, absorb elements or uncanny dodge etc etc).

About simulacrum, once it finish spell slots you use 12 hours for cast it again, but it's anyway worth it to use for copy yourself (the wizard), a melee simulacrum with half hp of a wizard and without his equipment? It makes this spell useless. Maybe a ranged rogue, but anyway copy yourself it keep being much more stronger.



Not at all, "power" is not the one I care, but i don't see any reason to play 6 BS/X AT. I was searching a way for make the Bladesinger a bit more efficient in melee damage giving up some spell power, but seem even moving it up with AC the damage don't grow enough for be worth it. Even in your build you get first 6 LV BS, that in my opinion is better than split with AT from beginning, at LV 9 BS can cast already 1 SB 4d8 and 3 SB 3d8 (and of course he not gonna use all this slots for SB), while you have only 1 minute at 3d8 +3d6, than at LV 11 BB start to deal more damage than your BB do (bcs i suppose it referes to caster LV and not to character LV) and at LV 13 there is no game anymore. The melee output it's not that different to be worth the multiclass, except you are fishing for expertise, canning action (nice but with that Armor class do you really need it?) and uncanny dodge (nice again but shield and absorb elements make your reaction a bit busy and more thinking about sentinel as the build above). You can't go more than this with AT if you don't want lose simulacrum, if you go more AT you get evasion (good) and magic ambush, but you lose the strongest spell in the game. This said, I'm really a fun of rugues, it's my favourite class from 1st edition, but multiclass should give benefits above malus or it's not worth. For thematic choice i can play also a barbarian/wizard, but i have to know that he ll never be better or even near to a pure barb or wizard.

Nah with Bladesinger level 6 you can BB and still two weapon fight, also BB like all cantrips scales with character level not class levels. Yes if you’re looking for pure power like BendKing said few classes beats pure wizard forget about AT multi. However if you are into builds with more mobility, better melee defense (stacking both bladeward + uncanny dodge will be quite insane), and sentinel doesn’t just trigger due to OA it triggers whenever the enemy attacks anyone else besides you. That’s why sentinel is a reliable way to gain offturn sneak attacks, as long as you have at least one other player in melee with you, and that player doesn’t have sentinel.

[adb82]

Nah with Bladesinger level 6 you can BB and still two weapon fight, also BB like all cantrips scales with character level not class levels. Yes if you’re looking for pure power like BendKing said few classes beats pure wizard forget about AT multi. However if you are into builds with more mobility, better melee defense (stacking both bladeward + uncanny dodge will be quite insane), and sentinel doesn’t just trigger due to OA it triggers whenever the enemy attacks anyone else besides you. That’s why sentinel is a reliable way to gain offturn sneak attacks, as long as you have at least one other player in melee with you, and that player doesn’t have sentinel.

Yep i missed an important part of sentinel, my bad. But anyway if you use the reaction for attack with sentinel you can't counterspell, can't shield and can't absorb elements...and as you are assuming to use it almost every turn i think your defence drastically go down in this way.
Anyway as i said, I'm just searching damage melee output, i don't think BS needs more mobility (longstrider + bladesong) or more defense (it's already one of the hardest class to hit, he can even provoke OA just for make their reaction busy and let the rogue go to get someone in backlines), what he need is making more worth to be in malee than cast bigby's hand (for exemple), at least for the character i have in mind, making melee more important till get simulacrum at hight levels (so no more than 5/7 LV dip). I tryied with rogue, with bards that would be totally MAD, but seem the benefits for what I'm searching keep being too few for delay the spell's progression.

[Gignere]

Yep i missed an important part of sentinel, my bad.
Anyway as i said, I'm just searching damage melee output, i don't think BS needs more mobility (longstrider + bladesong) or more defense (it's already one of the hardest class to hit, he can even provoke OA just for make their reaction busy and let the rogue go to get someone in backlines), what he need is making more worth to be in malee than cast bigby's hand (for exemple), at least for the character i have in mind, making melee more important till get simulacrum at hight levels (so no more than 5/7 LV dip). I tryied with rogue, with bards that would be totally MAD, but seem the benefits for what I'm searching keep being too few for delay the spell's progression. Probably 2 LV fighter is easier and better...

If you’re simulacrum or bust than dont multi at all until you get simulacrum. However I have never seen simulacrum in play because most games end either before that happens or shortly after the wizard can get it. Even when the wizard can get the spell usually due to story issues can’t get the downtime it takes to cast it or even buy the mats for it, before the final fight.

[adb82]

If you’re simulacrum or bust than dont multi at all until you get simulacrum. However I have never seen simulacrum in play because most games end either before that happens or shortly after the wizard can get it. Even when the wizard can get the spell usually due to story issues can’t get the downtime it takes to cast it or even buy the mats for it, before the final fight.

Yes 12 hours casting time it's an issue (but nothing impossible to do), while for a 13 LV wizard shouldn't be a problem find ice and 3 ruby. And anyway once you create it, if you protect him with some defensive spell, if you don't make him be dispelled and if you don't use too much spell slots per fight, you not gonna need to cast it everyday. GI or blur + mirror image, use mage armor and you can even try to send him melee sometimes...at your own risk of course.

As said, this is a campaign we ll bring to LV 20 and than continue to play it not so often and without levelling anymore.

Ps simulacrum don't REGAIN spell slots, while i suppose he can RECOVER spell slots with arcane recovery as it have the ability, being a simulacrum of a wizard and bcs recover and regain are intetionally used as 2 different words.