TPK as a Plot Device

[Nagog]

So I've had this thought for a while, the thought of instegating a TPK in the party (not going to do "rocks fall, everybody dies", but still something real difficult to get out of), and the next session begins with the party being revived by powerful allies a few months later.

I'm mostly considering it because there are certain story progressions that need to happen in the world, but time-wise I don't have enough content for the party to be involved in while these events transpire (basically the BBEG solidifies control over much of the world, gathers armies, etc.). What do y'all think about that?

Further notes: the TPK will definitely really tick off the party, but it's being instegated by a party rival that I'm building into a villain they should really hate, but also fear when he enters the fray.

[J-H]

In the meantime, everyone spends a week thinking you killed their characters, being mad about it, and then building replacement characters. Not a good bait and switch to use.

[MaxWilson]

So I've had this thought for a while, the thought of instegating a TPK in the party (not going to do "rocks fall, everybody dies", but still something real difficult to get out of), and the next session begins with the party being revived by powerful allies a few months later.

I'm mostly considering it because there are certain story progressions that need to happen in the world, but time-wise I don't have enough content for the party to be involved in while these events transpire (basically the BBEG solidifies control over much of the world, gathers armies, etc.). What do y'all think about that?

Further notes: the TPK will definitely really tick off the party, but it's being instegated by a party rival that I'm building into a villain they should really hate, but also fear when he enters the fray.

Don't instigate the TPK deliberately, just foreshadow the powerful allies (or enemies of an enemy). Keep this in your back pocket for when a TPK occurs naturally.


In the meantime, everyone spends a week thinking you killed their characters, being mad about it, and then building replacement characters. Not a good bait and switch to use.

Don't wait a week to introduce the twist after the TPK. Wait maybe a minute at most before saying, "Next thing you know, you hear gravelly voice saying, 'That's quite a mess you allowed yourself to get into there. You owe me big time for pulling you bacon back out of the fire.' You open your eyes and see ancient eyes set in a narrow face peering at you..."

[Amnestic]

I would feel like my agency had been taken away if you put the group against a near-impossible situation only to magically have us come back later. Feels pretty railroady. If the party ends up TPKing themselves because of a choice THEY made then it's something to keep in the back pocket, but just doing it because you think it'd be neat...nah, not a fan at all.

[meandean]

Yeah, this would suck. In the "best-case" scenario, where it happened mid-session, I would feel like the "powerful allies" had now become the real heroes of the story. And it'd be far worse still if I thought my character really was dead, prepared a new character to play for the next session, and then was told to go back to the old character because he wasn't dead after all. That would be horrible for a bunch of reasons.

There are an infinite number of ways to have the party be elsewhere while Bad Stuff Happens. You just have to give them a good reason to, y'know, be elsewhere! Depending on their level, this could be a different region, a different continent, a different plane, who knows what all.

[MoiMagnus]

Cliffhangers needs to be "open". They need to make the players think "what will happen next?", not "this is finished". If you push the players to think the story of their character is dead, they might accept it and lose motivation to continue with their old character even if you brought them back to life.

If you really want to TPK, should probably put the resurrection at the end of the session (so just after the TPK, you narrate the fact that they feel the life coming back to their body, and maybe describe the room in which they wake up) rather than at the end.

Also, be very careful with unfair encounters / somewhat forced TPK. Especially if you give them the illusion that they can survive, but that all the good ideas that they can come up will with 99% chance be useless.

[Nagog]

In the meantime, everyone spends a week thinking you killed their characters, being mad about it, and then building replacement characters. Not a good bait and switch to use.

I'd definitely let them know they don't need to make new characters. The plan for their death is from a Rakshasa's curse: Rests no longer have any effect, so no new spells to prep, no new spell slots, etc. A few weeks travel from the nearest settlement. So they'd be slowly dying from exhaustion as this curse takes it's toll over the next few days. Depending on the energy of the session, I may end it with their deaths or end it just before their deaths, then the next session starts with them dying, and after some visions or dreams or something, coming back after the time skip

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson
Don't wait a week to introduce the twist after the TPK.

Came here to say this.

I would leave the party in a cliffhanger at the end of a session—just prior to TPK—and then start out the next session with overwhelming odds and a fade to black.

Give everyone a few seconds to absorb it, and then let them feel their characters painfully returning to life. I know my group would be willing to roll with it, but definitely be sure you have a good sense of your players before implementing this.

And as others have said, very definitely don’t end a session with a TPK, because that really will put everyone in a severely dark mood.

[Angelalex242]

I agree with the guy who said 'don't use a TPK to begin with, use plane shift.'

Just send them to the outer plane you think they'd have fun in, and by the time they get back...

"Oh, yeah. You kinda lost track of time in the outer planes. While you were gone, about 18 months lapsed in the prime material. Despite that, you only experienced a couple days."

[JNAProductions]

Use with care. Great care.

Definitely don't TPK the party, end the session, and expect them to come back next session without new PCs.

The best way would probably be to cliffhanger right before the potential TPK, give them a week to figure out plans of how they fight, and then, if they TPK, move on. If they don't, though, have a plan-players can pull off some crazy stuff.

[Unoriginal]

I'd definitely let them know they don't need to make new characters. The plan for their death is from a Rakshasa's curse: Rests no longer have any effect, so no new spells to prep, no new spell slots, etc. A few weeks travel from the nearest settlement. So they'd be slowly dying from exhaustion as this curse takes it's toll over the next few days. Depending on the energy of the session, I may end it with their deaths or end it just before their deaths, then the next session starts with them dying, and after some visions or dreams or something, coming back after the time skip

So a long, painful, drawn out death where nothing they do matter or change anything, and the session ends on that?

That's worse than rocks fall, everybody dies.

The only way something like that can happen is if you're removing the PCs', and therefore your players', capacity to do anything.

I seriously advise against it, no one is going to enjoy that unless they always imagined a pathetic end for their PC.

That kind of things can work as a beginning of campaign (aka the PCs are dead to begin with, and the resurrection is the first thing that happens plot-wise), or if you actually make it a combat AND accept the possibility the PCs may survive it or even win it. And are prepared to reward them appropriately if they manage to.


But in any case, whatever you do, do *not* make this a cliffhanger until the next session. The resurrection should happen near immediately from the POV of the PCs and of the players. Forcing a TPK is going to piss them off, and even a legit TPK will feel bad, but letting it fester until next time? That spells disaster.


I agree with the guy who said 'don't use a TPK to begin with, use plane shift.'

Just send them to the outer plane you think they'd have fun in, and by the time they get back...

"Oh, yeah. You kinda lost track of time in the outer planes. While you were gone, about 18 months lapsed in the prime material. Despite that, you only experienced a couple days."

Also a possibility.

[Samayu]

I'd definitely let them know they don't need to make new characters. The plan for their death is from a Rakshasa's curse: Rests no longer have any effect, so no new spells to prep, no new spell slots, etc. A few weeks travel from the nearest settlement. So they'd be slowly dying from exhaustion as this curse takes it's toll over the next few days. Depending on the energy of the session, I may end it with their deaths or end it just before their deaths, then the next session starts with them dying, and after some visions or dreams or something, coming back after the time skip

OK, so not in combat. But this curse sounds... no fun. They'd spend their time searching for cures, and despairing. So you'd probably want to only have them play out an early day of the curse, to give them the feel for having the curse. Give them some things to do, while they're trying to think of a solution, so they're not spending all their time trying to come up with a solution that you know will never work. And then skip right to the end with narrative. Tell them how awful the next few days were, up until their deaths, and go right into the resurrection.

I played in the start of a campaign with a newish GM. We were captives in a slave caravan. The GM asked us what we wanted to do. Several of us spent a fruitless hour trying to escape before it was clear that we could not escape. If the GM had wanted to know what we did in captivity, he should have told us "you will not be able to escape. How would you like to spend your time?" So never give players the illusion that they can do thinks that they really can't do.

[Unoriginal]

So never give players the illusion that they can do thinks that they really can't do.

This.

Subverting expectations is fine (ex: the PCs plan to cast Hold Person on the noble they want to capture, but it doesn't work because the noble is actually a demon in disguise and the PCs never checked/had no one in the party who could check), but it's a whole different thing to give players the illusion of possibility.

[Topgoon]

I would highly recommend making the TPK solution only one of multiple possibility that leads to the time skip you want.

Totally get that sometimes you need certain things to happen to set the stage for a story you'd like to tell. However, I would just avoid creating "cut scene" scenarios that may make the players feel powerless and limited in agency as much as possible.

In your proposed scenario of overwhelmingly powerful X kills you, and Y resurrects you, both of these scenarios are basically outside of the players control. There's a risk that the players won't feel the separation between DM and the characters, and feel the "author's hand" forcing the story too hard towards certain outcome.

Some possible solutions:


Have an escape route from the TPK encounter leads to a plane/location where time passes differently - they can stay there for 5 days and months have past in the material plane.
"Infinity gauntlet" it - have part of the encounter revolve around a McGuffin that lets the BBEG alter the timeline in a limited manner.
Play it straight - let the players interact and witness the change in a summarized, fast-forward manner. Make it a fun skill challenge. It's perfectly fine that a small party of adventurers can't stop a full revolution or invasion - the party can only be at one place and influence so much. To speed things up but also keep the interactivity, you can consider doing a skill challenge where the party has to choose which towns/cities they want to help, and let them affect some of the world-change with the skills they apply (i.e. survival to help refugees hide and escape, persuasion to convince a cowardly ruler to mount a resistance, etc).


You might need to adjust the narrative slightly to keep it cohesive - i.e. in the "invasion" scenario, the BBEG isn't forming the armies from the material plane, but simply already has them and is bringing them in from another plane.

The key is, your players will feel involved, and it could lead to some very interesting RP moments (save my hometown or this strategically valuable city?), etc.

[TyGuy]

Doesn't sound like it has to be a TKP. I know I would be less miffed if my PC was petrified and later cured or shunted into another dimension temporarily. Anything other than death from a stacked fight that was designed to be unwinnable. Also, what happens if the party, against all odds, pulls off a win or one or more PCs escape?

[Mellack]

This seems like an unenjoyable way to move time forward as the players have essentially no choices. It appears you are cursing them without them having a possibility to avoid it, killing them without them having any chance to cure it, and then raising them without them having any say in it. Why are they playing characters if nothing they do matters? Please instead send them somewhere else they can do something. I support those who suggested sending them to another plane where time moves a bit differently. They have a fun adventure, and come back to changes they need to undo.

[Amdy_vill]

So I've had this thought for a while, the thought of instegating a TPK in the party (not going to do "rocks fall, everybody dies", but still something real difficult to get out of), and the next session begins with the party being revived by powerful allies a few months later.

I'm mostly considering it because there are certain story progressions that need to happen in the world, but time-wise I don't have enough content for the party to be involved in while these events transpire (basically the BBEG solidifies control over much of the world, gathers armies, etc.). What do y'all think about that?

Further notes: the TPK will definitely really tick off the party, but it's being instegated by a party rival that I'm building into a villain they should really hate, but also fear when he enters the fray.

tpk as a plot device is a get idea but never under any circumstances should you let the players fester. to be honest, having done this a few times and have had this happen to me a few time it generally goes over better the earlier in the session I did it.

Edit: the context of the tpk matter. generally I would stay away from things like x group saves you so on. I would stay in the realms of the bbeg saved you or doing an afterlife/reanimation plot. Players generally don't like a big cool super guy jumping in and saving them after a tpk.

[Tanarii]

While I'm all in favor of players getting their PCs into a TPK and (potentially other) players using other characters to get the bodies back and Rez them, this is painful railroading at its worst. Just Rip Van Winkle them and be done with it. Same net effect, slightly less intrusive feeling.

[clash]

I'd like to echo the plane shift idea. I had my players leave to do a quest in the feywild. They got back a few days later but time in the feywild passes differently in my world at least. So a war that had barely started was months under way. It worked out really well.

[Pex]

Don't do this. I know it's tempting. I know you mean well. I know it's not permanent, but don't do this. It will tick off the players big time. You will lose their trust. Players never like a TPK, but they're ok with it if it happens naturally in the game by their errors in tactics and/or bad luck dice rolling. When it's deliberately done by the DM for "story reasons", the game is over. Their characters are the only thing they get to control in the game, and you took it away. There is no justification. No "Yes, but". No "This is different." No "It's not really a TPK."

Think of something else. If you can't create filler adventures until they're ready for the finale then run published modules and fit them in your world. Change the module McGuffin so that it's relevant to the Campaign Plot. Make the reason the party encounters the module be relevant to the Campaign Plot. Have NPCs of your world, whether the PCs have met them or not, be the NPCs the players encounter in the module. Do whatever it takes, but do not deliberately TPK your party.

[Temperjoke]

Why not just have them be magically imprisoned and when freed, the necessary time has passed? I mean, if the enemy is strong enough to curse them like you were planning, it would certainly be strong enough to trap them like that.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Don't do this. I know it's tempting. I know you mean well. I know it's not permanent, but don't do this. It will tick off the players big time. You will lose their trust. .
I think this is a very fair point...a DM might lose the players' trust.

How would people react if after their players took a Long Rest, or described their Downtime Activities, and the next session started with them being "awakened" by allies, perhaps after having been located and Raised from the Dead in unmarked graves?

The PCs have no memory of what happened, (indeed they only remember the last session).

Quintessentially, it is the same plot point/dramatic scene wipe, without the "forcing of a TPK/Captured(!) Scenario". While a bit ham fisted, as a player, the mystery and intrigue of figuring out 'what happened' would override my reservations or objections.

Having to roleplay The Kobayashi Maru scenario would annoy me as a player. Awakening, en media res, from the dead and with a gap in my memory would motivate me to investigate and get revenge. I think I would enjoy the setup.

James Brown's song "The Payback" would become my PC's official anthem. "Gotta Payback, Revenge! I'm Mad!"😎

[Mellack]

Honestly, be very careful and make sure the players are on board. If I felt that a DM had taken away all of my agency as a player and started talking about how we are raised after a set-up TPK, I might just point out how those spells require the soul to be willing and my character is happy resting in their afterlife. If that is the limit of the choices I get to make, I can go ahead and take it.

[Sigreid]

There's no way you could do this without annoying me unless you told me up front that this was the plan. And if you did that it would ruin it completely anyway.

[JonBeowulf]

I kind of understand the POV of the "don't do it" crowd, but I honestly would have no issue with it if there's been trust established between players and GM and if the situation is handled properly:



I would leave the party in a cliffhanger at the end of a session—just prior to TPK—and then start out the next session with overwhelming odds and a fade to black.

Give everyone a few seconds to absorb it, and then let them feel their characters painfully returning to life. I know my group would be willing to roll with it, but definitely be sure you have a good sense of your players before implementing this.

Don't end with the big downer or you risk seeing only half the players show up for the big reveal.

Numerous movies and games already use this trick to fast-forward a story or drastically change something. It does what it's supposed to when it's done right.

[Avonar]

Something like this killed a campaign of ours once. We had this big build up to a fight, went on quests to prepare, then the actual boss fight...we never stood a chance. It really dampened everyone's investment in the campaign, even though the DM had planned for us to die and had story afterwards. We felt like we had lost a lot of agency.

If you trick players into thinking they have a way out, only for it turn out that they don't, feels bad. It feels like the DM is getting joy out of tricking the players and that the entire game world is working against them, because that's what the DM is. If a situation is unwinnable, the player should be given some indication of this so that if they still choose to attempt it they don't feel like the rug has been pulled out for under them.

For this situation: you can still use a Rakshasa. Have them sent on a quest somewhere, only to return to find that more time has passed than they knew. Them coming out of a cave only to be told it's been two years would pack a punch and wouldn't have the feelbad of guaranteed death.

[DwarfFighter]

So I've had this thought for a while, the thought of instegating a TPK in the party (not going to do "rocks fall, everybody dies", but still something real difficult to get out of), and the next session begins with the party being revived by powerful allies a few months later.


You can do this, just not in the format you suggest.

The advice you have got is pretty uniform that this will not go down well with your players. I agree. The players will be upset that they were unfairly beaten (true) and the feelings of despair and loathing you want to hav directed at the villain is going to be directed at YOU.

If you want to pull this off, have your adventure START with the PCs being revived. This part you can read out to them for a prepared script , something like...

There is nothing. The cold void of death is both timeless and dark. But after a moment lasting an eternity, light and warmth return to your consciousness. A weak glow to start, building to a torrent of the force of life and light that have you sitting up with a gasp. You are sat on stone slabs in a circular domed chamber, clad in simple white robes. At the center of the room, High Cleric Gufstaf and his two asssistents let out a collective sigh of relief.

"We feared this was the end for you, but with the Pelor's grace you have been returned to us! Tell me, what do you remember of your final fight with the Lord Murkhelm?"

At this point you explain to your players that they have confronted the evil guy, and got killed off, but that you are going to play that fight in a flash-back scene. While the outcome of the fight is a given, the HOW of it can still be played out as a fun fight: they have the opportunity to deal some damage to the villain, learn some of his tricks, and the GM can have him monologue his end game plan, that sort of thing

The PCs don't even need to be killed off directly. When the novelty of the fight is begin in wear thin you can have the battered form of Lord Murkhelm swear at their interference: "It seems I have underestimated your tenacity, Heroes! You give me no choice but to unleash a measure of my powers. Your DEATHS are worth the inconvenience of this setback to my plans!" and he releases some sort of "rocks fall, everyone dies" effect.

You can have the PCs start the fight with a signature magic item. As a GM I would be tempted to use these items as plot hooks for the later campaign, e.g. a goblin bandit lord in league with Lord Murkhelm has claimed the Fighters's +1 sword that he used in the "flashback" fight.

-DF

[KCWONDER99]

I agree with the other posts about how as a player I feel this would rob me of some agency in the game.

As for a potential work around I was wondering the group could be hired for a job which they will not be able to remember a lá the movie paycheck. Some greater trickster diety approaches them to accomplish a job, they will be richly rewarded but for the God and their safeties their memories will be taken when done.

They can then wake up with riches or a powerful magic item each 6 - 18 months later with new scars, probably new allies and new enemies. If you really want to sell them on it they could have levelled up during the lost time and if you want to buy a little extra time the next few months could be them trying to pierce it back together from clues they left.

[Pex]

As a personal matter I'm not fond of time jumps either - go to another plane, come back, years have passed. The more investment I had, emotionally and roleplaying, with NPCs and the gameworld the worse it is. It reeks of railroading and made all the character story development a waste of time. It's not an uncommon theme in books, tv shows, and movies, but then I'm not as vested in the character as I am my own PC. I do agree it's better than a TPK and won't automatically break player trust, but do not destroy whatever legacies the PCs developed.

[Unoriginal]

As a personal matter I'm not fond of time jumps either - go to another plane, come back, years have passed. The more investment I had, emotionally and roleplaying, with NPCs and the gameworld the worse it is. It reeks of railroading and made all the character story development a waste of time. It's not an uncommon theme in books, tv shows, and movies, but then I'm not as vested in the character as I am my own PC. I do agree it's better than a TPK and won't automatically break player trust, but do not destroy whatever legacies the PCs developed.

Losing years tend to do that, I agree, but would a few weeks or months be the same for you?

I mean if the PCs have to travel by boat somewhere and come back, it's also that much time away from the NPCs in the place they left.

[meandean]

Losing years tend to do that, I agree, but would a few weeks or months be the same for you?

I mean if the PCs have to travel by boat somewhere and come back, it's also that much time away from the NPCs in the place they left.Yeah, I find the Feywild time distortion to be an intriguing part of the lore so I'd personally enjoy it, but if it doesn't appeal, there's no obligation at all to figure out a way where the party was "gone for years". The party just has to not be where the BBEG is. Spoiler, this is all make-believe, so however much time the party was off Doing The Distracting Thing, that's how long it took for the BBEG to Do The Evil Thing.

(Or hell, they are where the BBEG is but they just couldn't stop him. I liked Topgoon's ideas about that. It's fun to, y'know, be involved when important things happen.)

[Zhorn]

Yeah... this is a hard pass from me.
DM intentionally TPKing the party? Lost all trust in the DM.
DM raising the party after a TPK (intentional or not)? Lost all respect for the stakes in the game.

Had a DM tell me ahead of time they wanted to kill of a PC for story reasons. I left that game.

[Pex]

Losing years tend to do that, I agree, but would a few weeks or months be the same for you?

I mean if the PCs have to travel by boat somewhere and come back, it's also that much time away from the NPCs in the place they left.

Happened in my barbarian game, twice, as we needed to go to the Fey Wild. First time was weeks, second time months. I still didn't like it as a matter of personal opinion, but I'm not blaming the DM or anything like that. It's just personal taste. For the game itself it was flavor text having only superficial effect. It did not upset non-campaign plot related things. Actually, technically a third time too losing a month and change traveling through the Lower Planes that was only two weeks for us. The main effect is coordinating Campaign Plot timing of what we need to do to save the world, which I suppose is what the OP wants in his game. If you have to do it, don't make it too much of a time loss and don't screw around with non-campaign plot PC personal relationships.

[Witty Username]

I would just directly ask my players if they liked this idea, yeah they would see it coming, but is the surprise as important as this going over well. Also, make the survival/resurrection clear as soon as can be done, confusion helps no one.

[Kane0]

This kind of move would be heavily dependant on the members of your table. I know that mine would probably really like this kind of shake-up, once. And I know that was not always the case, if i pulled this stunt in the starting years at least one player would have had words for me about it.

[rlc]

Don't instigate the TPK deliberately, just foreshadow the powerful allies (or enemies of an enemy). Keep this in your back pocket for when a TPK occurs naturally.



Don't wait a week to introduce the twist after the TPK. Wait maybe a minute at most before saying, "Next thing you know, you hear gravelly voice saying, 'That's quite a mess you allowed yourself to get into there. You owe me big time for pulling you bacon back out of the fire.' You open your eyes and see ancient eyes set in a narrow face peering at you..."

Yeah, do that. As somebody who has been on both sides of a plot-device-tpk, it isn’t a good cliff hanger. Even if you do the tpk and end the session with them waking up.

[wookietek]

I've had this happen to me last year. I didn't appreciate it, but continued to play as it happened in the first session under a DM that we already trusted. I felt cheated though, and after the session made my opinion known. I don't mind a character dying, or even a TPK, from organic reasons, but if I never was supposed to have a chance so that your story can advance? No thanks. Maybe try a different method of advancing the story so the players can be a part of it. Something even along the lines of after they finish a leg of the story they take some downtime, and the world goes to hell while they're on vacay or something. Remember it is supposed to be a collaborative game not you vs them.

[FrancisBean]

TSR did something like this in the venerable module, Vecna Lives!, as a way to make the danger real and set the tone as dark as possible. But they didn't kill off the real PC's.
In this module, at the first session you hand out pre-gen'd characters to the group. As players read the sheets and see names like Nystul, Drawmij, Tenser, Bigby and the like, they already know this isn't going to be like most games. Then they go to investigate a hazard in some burial mound, and get TPK'd in under 4 rounds by a quasi-lich with both the Hand and Eye of Vecna.

After that shock, you hand out the real characters they'll play, loyal henchmen and apprentices to the deceased members of the Circle of Eight who just had a vision of the death of their respective masters. The whole point is to stress the dire nature of the situation, and to foreshadow the real, flesh-and- ... well, bone, anyway! -- presence of Vecna himself. But in this case, you're not killing the actual party, you're killing off one-off characters they've never played before.


You can do this, just not in the format you suggest.

The advice you have got is pretty uniform that this will not go down well with your players. I agree. The players will be upset that they were unfairly beaten (true) and the feelings of despair and loathing you want to have directed at the villain is going to be directed at YOU.

If you want to pull this off, have your adventure START with the PCs being revived.

This part you can read out to them for a prepared script , something like...

There is nothing. The cold void of death is both timeless and dark. But after a moment lasting an eternity, light and warmth return to your consciousness. A weak glow to start, building to a torrent of the force of life and light that have you sitting up with a gasp. You are sat on stone slabs in a circular domed chamber, clad in simple white robes. At the center of the room, High Cleric Gufstaf and his two asssistents let out a collective sigh of relief.

"We feared this was the end for you, but with the Pelor's grace you have been returned to us! Tell me, what do you remember of your final fight with the Lord Murkhelm?"

At this point you explain to your players that they have confronted the evil guy, and got killed off, but that you are going to play that fight in a flash-back scene. While the outcome of the fight is a given, the HOW of it can still be played out as a fun fight: they have the opportunity to deal some damage to the villain, learn some of his tricks, and the GM can have him monologue his end game plan, that sort of thing

The PCs don't even need to be killed off directly. When the novelty of the fight is begin in wear thin you can have the battered form of Lord Murkhelm swear at their interference: "It seems I have underestimated your tenacity, Heroes! You give me no choice but to unleash a measure of my powers. Your DEATHS are worth the inconvenience of this setback to my plans!" and he releases some sort of "rocks fall, everyone dies" effect.

You can have the PCs start the fight with a signature magic item. As a GM I would be tempted to use these items as plot hooks for the later campaign, e.g. a goblin bandit lord in league with Lord Murkhelm has claimed the Fighter's +1 sword that he used in the "flashback" fight.

-DF

This, right here. It's a brilliant way of handling the situation. A bit of post-traumatic amnesia covers things nicely. Playing fragments of it in flash-back is a great twist, particularly for seeding necessary hints and clues, or for the signature magic items aspect.

Here's one other option that I've used myself in a different gaming system. The party got tangled up with a prophetic power, who gave them some "help" by sending their minds forward along the current timeline. They played through several of the upcoming confrontations, learned things they couldn't have known, got slaughtered, and snapped back to their present selves. Knowing what was coming, they did side quests to get the tools they'd need to win. When they faced the same enemies "again for the first time," the party was motivated and came loaded for dire bear.

[Unoriginal]

It's rare to see a thread this unanimous, I must say.

[Pex]

It's rare to see a thread this unanimous, I must say.

And it includes me.

[Sigreid]

Losing years tend to do that, I agree, but would a few weeks or months be the same for you?

I mean if the PCs have to travel by boat somewhere and come back, it's also that much time away from the NPCs in the place they left.

To me the big issue is that at the point you do something like this intentionally, we've gone from playing a game together that builds a narragive to the players being nothing more than a character being jerked around in your story in your head.

[CapnWildefyr]

I was in one of these once, too. Stunk. Oh, were were mad at the BBEG, for sure. But also mad at the DM. At the time, you could only be raised a certain number of times, and this burned one of those times. Etc etc. Lost our stuff. Grrrr.

I don't like the time dilation planar solution, myself, I mean not everyone goes plane-bouncing. Now for TPK you could have the party go after a medusa, get the drop on that one, and then have them make a perception test, and say, you hear something behind you.... and wake up laying on a cold slab. A high priest of ___ seems to be... praying over you? At least then there's no time for it to fester.

But instead try a deliberate "time jump." If one of them can commune with nature/etc, or maybe is susceptible to prophesy, you can have them think that hiding out in the desert for 6 months will let them save the world. Or they contract a disease with a six-month isolation cure, or need to take a ship to somewhere (can't teleport safely) and the ship wrecks in a storm and they don't get recused for 6 months. Or even just if they are in a major magical battle, some big magical thing gets broken, and the weave rips and then you see stars, swirling colors, and you've just time-traveled. Avoid the tpk.

[Tanarii]

To me the big issue is that at the point you do something like this intentionally, we've gone from playing a game together that builds a narragive to the players being nothing more than a character being jerked around in your story in your head.
Pretty standard result of thinking RPGs are about storytelling.

[SandyAndy]

I had a DM that actually killed our characters. Legit TPK, no resurrection, no coming back. Just dead. The next session, we were a team that came out to try to find our missing characters a year afterwards. We found the bodies and geared up and took up the quest that we had before.

The thing is, he sat us down and talked to us about it. Something along the lines of "Yo. So, we have completely screwed the narrative of this campaign. I can't think of a way to get this back on track that isn't super cheesey and railroad-y. Plus a couple of you seem bored with your characters anyway. So I think we can fix it by wiping the table and starting iver. Next session, epic last stand. You guys down?"

That way we all knew what was coming. We all got to say goodbye and give our characters a good sendoff. It was an event that we were looking forward to and nobody was upset that they died. All because we had a good conversation about it first.

So, I don't see a problem with it but I would suggest you have a talk with your players first. Don't bait-and-switch them; let them know what's coming to spare some hurt feekings. Same thing for getting captured. A quick: "Yo, they're actually trying to capture you. You can get your stuff back. Don't go all 300 on me." Will save you a lot of heartache.

[Ettina]

As a personal matter I'm not fond of time jumps either - go to another plane, come back, years have passed. The more investment I had, emotionally and roleplaying, with NPCs and the gameworld the worse it is. It reeks of railroading and made all the character story development a waste of time. It's not an uncommon theme in books, tv shows, and movies, but then I'm not as vested in the character as I am my own PC. I do agree it's better than a TPK and won't automatically break player trust, but do not destroy whatever legacies the PCs developed.

I've had it kill my investment in books, tv shows, etc too sometimes. Especially if the time jump leads to the loss or drastic change of a side character I liked better than the main character.

[Garimeth]

So, I have done this as a DM. And I heavily telegraphed what was happening. We were playing on roll20. One guy got drunk and left the game and never even discovered that they got raised. The rest of the party didn't mind, two thought it was cool, one could have cared less one way or the other, and one of them made a point of saying it was cool... once. Like that if there was stuff like this often he probably wouldn't play.

I have DM'ed for these guys for YEARS, and they LOVE my games. It still didn't go over well, even with me having heavily telegraphed it. It was good in the long run, but if I were to do it again, I think I would find a different way to run that portion of the campaign.

[Mercureality]

So I've had this thought for a while, the thought of instegating a TPK in the party (not going to do "rocks fall, everybody dies", but still something real difficult to get out of), and the next session begins with the party being revived by powerful allies a few months later.

I'm mostly considering it because there are certain story progressions that need to happen in the world, but time-wise I don't have enough content for the party to be involved in while these events transpire (basically the BBEG solidifies control over much of the world, gathers armies, etc.). What do y'all think about that?

Further notes: the TPK will definitely really tick off the party, but it's being instegated by a party rival that I'm building into a villain they should really hate, but also fear when he enters the fray.

Something to think about: story that happens without your characters isn't story, it's prologue. Why not wrap up after the conclusion of an adventure and go to credits for a bit. The party spends a few months pursuing downtime activities, then they start hearing troubling rumors?

In my opinion, the TPK as plot device is a bad idea. It might be workable with player permission, but still, it's not much of a game if something that drastic is predetermined. You're not setting up the villain as a figure to hate and fear, you're robbing character death of gravity and setting up your players to mistrust you.

[Magicspook]

You can do this, just not in the format you suggest.

The advice you have got is pretty uniform that this will not go down well with your players. I agree. The players will be upset that they were unfairly beaten (true) and the feelings of despair and loathing you want to hav directed at the villain is going to be directed at YOU.

If you want to pull this off, have your adventure START with the PCs being revived. This part you can read out to them for a prepared script , something like...

There is nothing. The cold void of death is both timeless and dark. But after a moment lasting an eternity, light and warmth return to your consciousness. A weak glow to start, building to a torrent of the force of life and light that have you sitting up with a gasp. You are sat on stone slabs in a circular domed chamber, clad in simple white robes. At the center of the room, High Cleric Gufstaf and his two asssistents let out a collective sigh of relief.

"We feared this was the end for you, but with the Pelor's grace you have been returned to us! Tell me, what do you remember of your final fight with the Lord Murkhelm?"

At this point you explain to your players that they have confronted the evil guy, and got killed off, but that you are going to play that fight in a flash-back scene. While the outcome of the fight is a given, the HOW of it can still be played out as a fun fight: they have the opportunity to deal some damage to the villain, learn some of his tricks, and the GM can have him monologue his end game plan, that sort of thing

The PCs don't even need to be killed off directly. When the novelty of the fight is begin in wear thin you can have the battered form of Lord Murkhelm swear at their interference: "It seems I have underestimated your tenacity, Heroes! You give me no choice but to unleash a measure of my powers. Your DEATHS are worth the inconvenience of this setback to my plans!" and he releases some sort of "rocks fall, everyone dies" effect.

You can have the PCs start the fight with a signature magic item. As a GM I would be tempted to use these items as plot hooks for the later campaign, e.g. a goblin bandit lord in league with Lord Murkhelm has claimed the Fighters's +1 sword that he used in the "flashback" fight.

-DF
That's pretty cool man. Might steal later.

[JoeJ]

TSR did something like this in the venerable module, Vecna Lives!, as a way to make the danger real and set the tone as dark as possible. But they didn't kill off the real PC's.
In this module, at the first session you hand out pre-gen'd characters to the group. As players read the sheets and see names like Nystul, Drawmij, Tenser, Bigby and the like, they already know this isn't going to be like most games. Then they go to investigate a hazard in some burial mound, and get TPK'd in under 4 rounds by a quasi-lich with both the Hand and Eye of Vecna.

After that shock, you hand out the real characters they'll play, loyal henchmen and apprentices to the deceased members of the Circle of Eight who just had a vision of the death of their respective masters. The whole point is to stress the dire nature of the situation, and to foreshadow the real, flesh-and- ... well, bone, anyway! -- presence of Vecna himself. But in this case, you're not killing the actual party, you're killing off one-off characters they've never played before.

This is the way to do it IMO. The players have no emotional involvement in the characters who die, and by making their actual characters less powerful than the pre-gens who got slaughtered, it shows the players the danger their characters are in, and lets them know not to try a stand-up fight because they won't win. It also answers the question of why the most powerful NPCs in the world aren't handing this problem - they tried and failed.

[Unoriginal]

I have a question for OP:

What requires the PCs to be out of commission?

Can it be achieved in other ways, like the BBEGdoing a surprise attack, if the purpose is to let the BBEG conquer things.

[kingcheesepants]

Is there any strong reason why they can't be doing a few months of downtime activities? The bad guys can be lurking in the shadows and recruiting and doing whatever they need to do while the PCs are picking up tools and languages and making forts and cool gear.

[FrancisBean]

They tried and failed?
They tried and died. </BeneGeserit>

[J.C.]

Almost TPK is a better plot device than total TPK. Just saying.

[Tawmis]

Make it personal.

Add an NPC to their party who is very helpful - gets information to them about events, and asks for information from them about what they found to "report back to the order."

Build up the trust - make the NPC very personable.

Then - after "X" amount of sessions - reveal that the NPC has been working the party - and gathering information for himself.

And have the party fight off whatever minions he's amassed while he sits behind a protective shield spell of some ancient magic he uncovered (plot device).

Then have him say, "I grow tired of this."

Snap his fingers - and you tell the party, "All of you see blackness."

And end the session with the cliff hanger.

And if they ask if they're dead - just reply, "Wait and see."

Then next session -

Start it with a recap of what happened - then say, "All of you see a bright white light - as your eyes adjust. You're surrounded by several mages who explain that NPC had shifted their souls/minds out of their bodies into another plane - technically 'killing' the body - but leaving it in a state of living death" - and that they've recovered their soul/mind and returned it to their bodies - and hope that since they'd worked with NPC, that they might know of a way to strike him down.

[Garimeth]

Make it personal.

Add an NPC to their party who is very helpful - gets information to them about events, and asks for information from them about what they found to "report back to the order."

Build up the trust - make the NPC very personable.

Then - after "X" amount of sessions - reveal that the NPC has been working the party - and gathering information for himself.

And have the party fight off whatever minions he's amassed while he sits behind a protective shield spell of some ancient magic he uncovered (plot device).

Then have him say, "I grow tired of this."

Snap his fingers - and you tell the party, "All of you see blackness."

And end the session with the cliff hanger.

And if they ask if they're dead - just reply, "Wait and see."

Then next session -

Start it with a recap of what happened - then say, "All of you see a bright white light - as your eyes adjust. You're surrounded by several mages who explain that NPC had shifted their souls/minds out of their bodies into another plane - technically 'killing' the body - but leaving it in a state of living death" - and that they've recovered their soul/mind and returned it to their bodies - and hope that since they'd worked with NPC, that they might know of a way to strike him down.

This is pretty close to what I did for mine, and it was during an extended playable prologue... still was met with mixed reception.

I would look for a different way, especially with OPs slow wasting/curse in the wilderness death.

[Keravath]

Forced TPK is a bad idea. (just to add to the unanimity :) ).

No one likes their character dying. It isn't fun. Being placed in a situation that they intentionally can't win and from which characters are prevented from fleeing so that the DM forces them all to die? Massively unhappy players. Keep in mind that when folks realize that they can't win, that the DM intentionally put them in a situation they can't win, trust is blown and some will try to flee. When they realize that the DM is preventing them from fleeing so as to force a TPK? Very irritated players, no matter what the DM has in mind afterward.

If you have a timing problem with your real world plot advancement ...

Your options are:
- downtime
- side quest
- time lapse (either voluntary - eg trip to the planes, or involuntary - trap or something triggered that Sequesters them or Imprisons them).
- die/resurrection

TPK/resurrection has to be the worst choice.

[Avonar]

What would people say to a TPK in the past? Sometime in the past, they fought and died and have been effectively reincarnated into their current life though without the memories of before. They regain their memories and remember what happened. Would that leave a bad taste?

[Keravath]

What would people say to a TPK in the past? Sometime in the past, they fought and died and have been effectively reincarnated into their current life though without the memories of before. They regain their memories and remember what happened. Would that leave a bad taste?

As long as the players have some input into what their past lives might have been then it could probably work as long as the players themselves bought into the idea at character creation.

[CapnWildefyr]

I had another thought. Involve the new nemesis. The party goes to intervene in something that they think should be small. They encounter new nemesis (NN). One of them maybe beats NN on initiative, but NN has a contingency magic that displaced him so none of the attack actually does anything. PCs start getting mad. Then NN tosses a glass globe into the middle of the encounter. "As the hollow glass sphere drops inexorably to the ground, you begin to see it in exquisite detail. It's truly beautiful, a thin glass orb etched in geometric patterns that seem to writhe and pulse with a life of their own. From within, a green-white light pulses in time with the movement in the etchings, like a heart beat pumping life through a butterfly's wings. When the orb touches the ground, it explodes in a flash of green-white fire, each tongue of flame almost distinguishable in that one brilliant instant. The shards of glass fly flee from the explosion -- but with a sickening horror, you realize they and the flames are slowing, slowing... stopped." Yep, it's a "time" bomb - a long-acting time stop. Freezes them in place, but also protects them. When it ends: "And then, in an instant, the flames sweep past you, the glass disintegrates, and the only sound you hear is the thumping of your own heart." The PCs then notice signs that time has passed. NN is gone, of course. Any blood stains from slain NN minions are dried and old. Maybe they're covered in 6 months of dust. Whatever.

This way, no TPK. PC's should be able to figure out NN used a very expensive item to get away from them. Should be flattered. In some ways this is as bad as a TPK, it's a Total Party Forced Ineptitude, but they're alive.

[Randel]

What if the players succeed in killing the BBEG, but at the cost of their own lives (or being scatted to different planes before making their way back?). Then, after the time skip, have it either be another BBEG who's trying to take over the world, or it could be that guy's lieutenant keeping control over their armies while also wanting to resurrect the BBEG that the players killed before?


Basically, make it possible to stop whatever plans the BBEG has, make it possible to kill him (or send him back to the nine hells or banish him or whatnot), but have there be a real chance the heroes might end up killed or scattered once they defeat him. Or the final battle takes place in a pocket dimension or another plane like the shadowfell or the infernal planes and the fight ends with the demiplane or portal home being destroyed.

Ideally, this could give the players a satisfying victory over the bad guy and bittersweet or satisfying ending for the heroes themselves. They beat the bad guy at great cost, saved the world, and their characters might get a satisfying ending to their story... and then after several months or so the NPCs can contact them to thank the heroes who saved the world and enlist their help for the next bad guy (or the new BBEG is trying to resurrect his fallen master and they need the heroes to stop him).

This might also allow for a way for the players to provide a satisfying end for their character and start a new character for dealing with the new BBEG.

I mostly got this idea after watching one of Puffin Forest's videos on how his campaign ended on a near total TPK, but still had a pretty decent ending since the heroes did end up thwarting the BBEG's plans and he ended up locked away in Mount Celestia after his personal demiplane collapsed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM96lCbhC3o

[NYC_DM]

I've done it, and it worked extremely well, and the players loved it. I had to do a lot of set-up for it, and the most important thing is that it wasn't a foregone conclusion. There's a perspective shift that needs to happen, based on three things:
1. The players need to know a TPK is likely if they choose a certain course of action.
2. The players need to know that it's not the end of the characters story if they all die.
3. They have to have a good, in-character reason (and preferably out-of-character as well) to give it a shot.

In my case, I had been working in an act structure, and the end of Act II was coming up, and I told them I wanted to do a major downer for the end of Act II, something along the lines of Empire Strikes Back. I had foreshadowed the enemy that was going to do it since the beginning of the campaign, and got them to a level where they went from "no chance of victory" to a "chance in hell."

I told them where the enemy was, and made sure they knew it was important to stop them before they got an evil artifact. I also made sure they knew a TPK was possible and even likely, but that if it happened, there'd be consequences but the characters' stories wouldn't end. Here's the key: I was also utterly prepared for them to go say "Naw, we don't want to do" and run something else. However, we'd been playing for a while, and they knew that their actions had consequences, good and ill, and they chose to fight them.

Their attitude going in was not expecting to win, but hoping to give it a shot. Running the scene, there were a couple of things I learned that went right. First, there were a bunch of named NPCs they got to kill: they went down, but they took some of the enemies with them. This would have major consequences for the finale, as they didn't need to fight those NPCs again. Second, I didn't wipe them out with one big spell: I just gave the enemy forces lots of numbers, so they took a lot of hits and dealt a lot of hits. It also let me kill them one-by-one: they got to see the fight go from "very hard" to "unwinnable" as their numbers dwindled. Finally, I made sure to narrate their last moments in detail, to give them a cinematic send-off.

It worked spectacularly. They had never lost a fight like that, and it helped them all to frame it in the "Empire Strikes Back" mindset. They came back the next session for the start of Act III, and it felt fresh and like it made sense that the campaign was entering its final stage.

I can't emphasize this enough: I was talking to them for a month about the possibility of this happening, and gave them "outs" to avoid it... and I was prepared to alter the campaign for them as well.

[PattThe]

Has anyone mentioned Vecna Lives?
You start off as playing some of the famous greyhawk wizards and you all straight up DIE fighting into an archaic tomb and get slammed by a reincarnated undead lieutenant or the like. This campaign from what I heard had a bad reputation. I wonder if anyone would have actually been interested in getting handed out pre-made character sheets for high level famous wizards, then die, then get handed entirely new pregens for each of you to play after, and then to do a high stakes adventure leading into the plane of dust for some honestly amazing setpieces.

[FrancisBean]

Has anyone mentioned Vecna Lives?
Yup, Ninja'd you by about 3 days. I'm doing the happy ninja dance, but you can't see it because, well, ninja! :smallbiggrin:
TSR did something like this in the venerable module, Vecna Lives!, as a way to make the danger real and set the tone as dark as possible.

[Garimeth]

I've done it, and it worked extremely well, and the players loved it. I had to do a lot of set-up for it, and the most important thing is that it wasn't a foregone conclusion. There's a perspective shift that needs to happen, based on three things:
1. The players need to know a TPK is likely if they choose a certain course of action.
2. The players need to know that it's not the end of the characters story if they all die.
3. They have to have a good, in-character reason (and preferably out-of-character as well) to give it a shot.

In my case, I had been working in an act structure, and the end of Act II was coming up, and I told them I wanted to do a major downer for the end of Act II, something along the lines of Empire Strikes Back. I had foreshadowed the enemy that was going to do it since the beginning of the campaign, and got them to a level where they went from "no chance of victory" to a "chance in hell."

I told them where the enemy was, and made sure they knew it was important to stop them before they got an evil artifact. I also made sure they knew a TPK was possible and even likely, but that if it happened, there'd be consequences but the characters' stories wouldn't end. Here's the key: I was also utterly prepared for them to go say "Naw, we don't want to do" and run something else. However, we'd been playing for a while, and they knew that their actions had consequences, good and ill, and they chose to fight them.

Their attitude going in was not expecting to win, but hoping to give it a shot. Running the scene, there were a couple of things I learned that went right. First, there were a bunch of named NPCs they got to kill: they went down, but they took some of the enemies with them. This would have major consequences for the finale, as they didn't need to fight those NPCs again. Second, I didn't wipe them out with one big spell: I just gave the enemy forces lots of numbers, so they took a lot of hits and dealt a lot of hits. It also let me kill them one-by-one: they got to see the fight go from "very hard" to "unwinnable" as their numbers dwindled. Finally, I made sure to narrate their last moments in detail, to give them a cinematic send-off.

It worked spectacularly. They had never lost a fight like that, and it helped them all to frame it in the "Empire Strikes Back" mindset. They came back the next session for the start of Act III, and it felt fresh and like it made sense that the campaign was entering its final stage.

I can't emphasize this enough: I was talking to them for a month about the possibility of this happening, and gave them "outs" to avoid it... and I was prepared to alter the campaign for them as well.

This. So much this. This really captures some of the important lessons I learned from mine.

Named NPCs for them to take with them, and whittling them down. So much better because it lets them somewhat decide how they meet their end.

We did an after-the-fact thing that was similar to this, and it made everyone like what happened much better.