Silliest Material in 3.5e?

[Blueiji]

Hey folks!

I'm curious what y'all consider to be the most silly, baffling, or bizarre aspects of D&D 3.5e.

These can be in-text things (such as the Acidborn template or the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu feat) or meta-textual things (such as the fact that the best "samurai" are Factotums wielding Gnomish Quickrazors). Essentially: anything goes, as long as its ridiculous.

As a side note—these don't have to be disfunctional things, per se. Busted or illogical rules are definitely silly, but nedz's Completely Disfunctional Handbook already does a great job of cataloguing that sort of stuff.

I'm looking forward to hearing what y'all think!

[Doctor Despair]

Does healing by drowning count?

[Blueiji]

Does healing by drowning count?

Absolutely! Good ol' buckets.

[Saintheart]

If you want the silliness categorised, there's a significant number of compilation threads of Dysfunctional Rules right here on the forum. As in, not just one thread, eight of them last I counted. Knock yourself out. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?508514-Dysfunctional-Rules-IX-1d3-Dysfunctions-from-the-8th-Level-List&highlight=Dysfunctional+Rules)

[Gruftzwerg]

Does healing by drowning count?

This was my first thought too..^^

______


Other than that, I always did find the lack of synergy the Drunken Master (DM) has with the monk really silly.
DM requires Flurry of Blows which forces you to dip monk (swordsage doesn't give it and most prc doen't give it/progress it). But it doesn't progress any of the monk abilities at all. It gives an entire new set of abilities and even flurry of blows gets totally ignored. Imho this is an error due to the 3.0 to 3.5 changes, since the monks flurry was (in 3.0) a first lvl ability that scaled with your BAB and not with your monk lvls.


The different power scaling between mundanes and caster is another silly issue. You just have a look at the monk's slow fall ability..
I mean, just compare PRCs. When mundanes get higher lvl spell effects the cooldown can easily hit the 1/week mark, where caster PRCs start to be able to persist spells all day long or have devastating abilities on a daily basis.
IMHO, if things like Planar Shepherd would have been non-caster PRCs we would have a more even field. But heck, give the strong T1 base classes the strongest/wrongest PRCs in the game.


Finally infinite loops like Pun-Pun & BoBaFeat demand their own category of silliness..

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.

And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.

[Jervis]

Obligatory mention of how a campfire doesn't deal damage high enough to overcome the hardness of firewood.

Barring that, trollblooded

Step 1: Be troll blooded

Step 2: Take fire damage

Step 3: Have a Crusader friend

Step 4: Have them beat the snot out of you, using their healing abilities to heal you after they attack you

Step 5: Heal your lethal fire damage and let the regeneration heal the nonlethal stabbing damage.

The stupid thing is that this makes sense, cutting off the burnt bits so you can heal.

[Fizban]

Windmill slam "Riverine." It's "compressed elemental water," except no it's actually permanent magical force that just happens to have water inside, because apparently they couldn't conceptualize their own compressed water idea without making it not-water.

Oh, you meant "material" as any in game content, not literally materials. Well it's still pretty bad.

[Gusmo]

I agree that even as a fantasy material, riverine has always seemed out there.

[Crake]

Windmill slam "Riverine." It's "compressed elemental water," except no it's actually permanent magical force that just happens to have water inside, because apparently they couldn't conceptualize their own compressed water idea without making it not-water.

Oh, you meant "material" as any in game content, not literally materials. Well it's still pretty bad.

Hah, I thought the same thing, and thought of riverine as well :smalltongue:


Obligatory mention of how a campfire doesn't deal damage high enough to overcome the hardness of firewood.

Yeah, but the PHB also has this line:


Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: The DM may rule that certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. For example, it’s easy to light a curtain on fire, chop down a tree with an ax, or rip up a scroll. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may (at the DM’s discretion) ignore the object’s hardness.

[Efrate]

Truenamer.

Ability score pre reqs for feats that you should just know how to do, ie combat expertise.

CR system.

WotC LAs.

WotC ideas, or rather lack thereof, of how the game will be/should be played. Trap options and all.

Inability to move and make multiple attacks, or moving between attacks, without jumping through hoops. Especially when that is exactly how dynamic theatre of the mind combat is described in fluff and intent.

Most feat trees.

The entirety of the ELH, special mention to epic spellcasting.

[Eldan]

Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.

And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.

They are actually a holdover from when it was a wargame and the alignments were your factions to build army lists from.

Anyway, my nomination is the Silverbeard (https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/silverbeard--4170/)spell. It's a Paladin only spell that turns your beard (if you don't have one, you grow one. Specifically said that it also works on creatures that don't have facial hair and women.) to noble metal.

What does that do? Why, it gives a +2 bonus to armour (your neck is protected?) and a +2 diplomacy bonus with dwarves.

I love this spell.

[ShurikVch]

Does healing by drowning count?
It's pointless: what good make you to be healed, if you die anyway just two rounds later?



Other than that, I always did find the lack of synergy the Drunken Master (DM) has with the monk really silly.
DM requires Flurry of Blows which forces you to dip monk (swordsage doesn't give it and most prc doen't give it/progress it). But it doesn't progress any of the monk abilities at all. It gives an entire new set of abilities and even flurry of blows gets totally ignored. Imho this is an error due to the 3.0 to 3.5 changes, since the monks flurry was (in 3.0) a first lvl ability that scaled with your BAB and not with your monk lvls.
Firstly, there is a line from the Oriental Adventures:

This chapter describes three prestige classes - the henshin mystic, the Shintao monk, and the tattooed monk - that are natural choices for monk characters, allowing them to continue improving their unarmed attacks, unarmed damage, Armor Class, and speed. To determine the damage, AC bonus, and speed of a monk character with one of these prestige classes, simply add the character’s monk levels to her monk prestige class levels and consult Table 3–10: The Monk in the Player's Handbook. To determine how many unarmed attacks she can make and at what attack bonuses, add together the base attack bonus derived from her monk levels and the base attack bonus derived from her monk prestige class levels, and consult Table 3–1: Multiple Unarmed Attacks. This table shows how many additional unarmed attacks (after the first, at the character’s full attack bonus) the character can make in a round and at what attack bonuses. Characters who have levels in only monk classes always get more unarmed attacks than they would normally get based on their base attack bonus (additional attacks at intervals of –3, instead of –5). Characters who have levels in other classes as well may or may not gain an advantage from this, and any advantage is often slight.
Thus, while not a strict RAW, you may claim Drunken Master is a "natural choice" for a Monk too, and hence - get all the listed advantage (and 3.5 Flurry of Blows progression)

Alternately, it's possible to restore the 3.0 version of Drunken Master: it required no Flurry of Blows, and also has full BAB (although with hard limit of no more than 5 attacks per round)



The different power scaling between mundanes and caster is another silly issue. You just have a look at the monk's slow fall ability..
I mean, just compare PRCs. When mundanes get higher lvl spell effects the cooldown can easily hit the 1/week mark, where caster PRCs start to be able to persist spells all day long or have devastating abilities on a daily basis.
IMHO, if things like Planar Shepherd would have been non-caster PRCs we would have a more even field. But heck, give the strong T1 base classes the strongest/wrongest PRCs in the game.
Gandalf and Boromir;
Doctor Strange and Captain America;
Luke Skywalker and Han Solo;
Raistlin and Caramon;
Voldemort and Hagrid;
Katara and Sokka...
Your point?.. :smallconfused:

[Lord Raziere]

Gandalf and Boromir;
Doctor Strange and Captain America;
Luke Skywalker and Han Solo;
Raistlin and Caramon;
Voldemort and Hagrid;
Katara and Sokka...
Your point?.. :smallconfused:

Those are all stories written by authors. the mundane persons use is pre-determined by the narrative. the reason why a mundane person can be useful in those is because the author can literally make the entire story bend so that they're useful. Take a guy who can nuke a city but not much else and a guy is just good at social skills at put them in a romance novel, who will be useful? the social guy, because no amount of city-nuking will get you the love of your life, but being a social person who can present and have good conversations and being empathetic will probably do wonders, because the genre and thus what challenges they face has been predetermined long before you ever read them. put them in a political drama and suddenly the nuke guy becomes a lot more important because they can threaten to blow up a society to get this or that and the world's politics has to deal with this disruption of the balance of power.

this doesn't work in an improvisational medium like roleplaying. you could face any number of challenges, social, political, combative, investigative or physical and what not. the mundane character's usefulness is not guaranteed or secure. the GM has to do work to make it so. and while you can argue that is true for all characters, anything that lessens the work they have to do is preferable.

[Gruftzwerg]

Your point?.. :smallconfused:

My point (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)..^^

[Batcathat]

Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.

And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.

Seconded.



Gandalf and Boromir;
Doctor Strange and Captain America;
Luke Skywalker and Han Solo;
Raistlin and Caramon;
Voldemort and Hagrid;
Katara and Sokka...
Your point?.. :smallconfused:

I suspect the point is that it's a silly imbalance from a player perspective, rather than an in-universe one. It would be just as "realistic" to have fighters who are like the Hulk and wizards with nothing but cantrips but it would be rather silly from a player perspective.

[ShurikVch]

My point (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)..^^
When such situations arise, the primary blame is on the inexperienced DM which is incapable to adequately challenge all the players rather than just a caster; secondary - on a disruptive players who're hogging the spotlights; and only tertiary - on the classes itself
At least, in the 3.5 you're, actually, able to choose what kind of character you're playing (in some other games, you got it at random, as a complete surprise, any pregame preparations are impossible)



I suspect the point is that it's a silly imbalance from a player perspective, rather than an in-universe one. It would be just as "realistic" to have fighters who are like the Hulk and wizards with nothing but cantrips but it would be rather silly from a player perspective.
Oh, come on, do we seriously comparing somebody who're able to manipulate the very laws of nature with somebody else who hits things - and it's it?
Casters are above Fighters on the very conceptual level
The limiting factors for Casters are spells/day and unexpected challenges - not capabilities of Fighters

[Rater202]

Doctor Strange and Captain America;
Bad example: Doctor Strange is powerful, but that power comes at a price: all Magic has a cost, and the majority of humans don't have enough mystical gas in the tank to cast even the most minor of spells. Even with the Vishanti subsidizing Strange's mystical energy with their own, Strange is still accumulating debt to the various deities and cosmic beings he invokes with his spells and has to work tireless to pay it off less his ability to use the spells be taken away. Their used to be a cult in the Himalayas that took the majority of the Sorcerer Supreme's debt onto themselves, but Strange nixed that when he found out it was part of the deal

And some of those beings aren't very nice: The Crimson Bands of Cytorrek draw on the same power that keeps the Juggernaut going.

Furthermore, years of using magic have ruined Strange's body becuase he's channeling more power than a human body can handle. Externally, he looks healthy enough, but his guts are a Lovecraftian nightmare of tumors and misshapen and misplaced organs. He can't eat normal food anymore, and the things he can eat are slowly killing him.

If you restrict Strange to only the powers he can use without hurting himself or putting him into debt with something that, at best, doesn't pay humanity much mind, then he can read minds and astral project for a few hours a day and he has a couple of interesting gadgets and a sword.

And, well, he also knows karate.

Captain America on the other hand is an immortal powerhouse who is as strong, tough, as hearty, as fast, as agile, as smart, and when it comes to tactics, martial arts, and the use of weapons and vehicles, as skilled as it is possible for a human to be. He has infinite memory capacity and perfect recall. Once he develops a skill, it never degrades from lack of use. His entire body is perfect from the surface of his skin to every last individual peptide bond. All of his body structures, entire systems down to the placement of individual molecules, and all of these perfect structures work in perfect concert. No drawbacks whatsoever.

Strange might have more raw power, but unless you're a Supernatural being or somehow able to cheat the system, Magic's a trap option in the Marvel Universe.

Voldemort and Hagrid;

Also a Bad example: Hagrid is a wizard. Considering that he's fully proficient with almost every spell he casts despite using a broken wand, he's a pretty damn good one. He is theoretically capable of everything Voldemort is.

He's also superhumanly strong, superhumanly tough, and impervious to most low and moderate level attack spells.

Basically, two of your examples are cases where, thinking critically, the "martial" is better than the caster.

[Batcathat]

Oh, come on, do we seriously comparing somebody who're able to manipulate the very laws of nature with somebody else who hits things - and it's it?
Casters are above Fighters on the very conceptual level
The limiting factors for Casters are spells/day and unexpected challenges - not capabilities of Fighters

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that the fact that there are stories with magic users more powerful than mundanes doesn't mean an imbalance like that is a good idea for what's supposed to be a cooperative game (and that the opposite imbalance, with mundanes much more powerful than casters, would be just as bad).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rater202
Captain America on the other hand is an immortal powerhouse….

Is there any canon support for this? It seems to be a popular fan theory, but a quick search didn’t show anything definitive.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I agree that even as a fantasy material, riverine has always seemed out there.Thing is, it's made of planes of force, which have infinite hardness, but it's considered a material, so you can fabricate a shard of it the size of a grain of sand into an object the size of a planet (just with virtually no thickness at all) and lose no hardness for it. It won't weigh any more, but you can still find myriad uses for it, I'm sure. And since it's made of solidified [force] energy and not molecules, you can scale up to infinity and be fine.

[InvisibleBison]

1 pound of wheat (worth 1 cp) can be crafted into 1.5 ponds of flour (worth 3 cp).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They are actually a holdover from when it was a wargame and the alignments were your factions to build army lists from.[/I]Lots of goblinorckobolds.

[Rater202]

Is there any canon support for this? It seems to be a popular fan theory, but a quick search didn’t show anything definitive.

In the main Earth 616 comics continuity(so not the MCU) Captain America does not age. He has not aged a day since he got the serum, with various sources citing his genetic perception, his perfect cellular division, and perfect cellular regeneration for his clinical immortality.

Dimension Z is a pocket reality with a heavy time dilation effect: You can in and come out later the same day, but from your perspective, several decades have gone past.

Supporting this, Isaiah Bradley, who received an imperfect version of the Serum was never frozen. He received his version not long after Cap got his and hasn't aged since, and Protocide, a man "killed" becuase he only received the third step of the serum(despite it's name, the Serum isn't one drug but several serums, viruses, other substances, and even radiation treatments... administered in three stages) was clinically dead, but his body did not decade and decades later he was able to be revived.

It's also noted that Steve should not have been able to survive being frozen for decades, particularly as he spent several hours deep underwater when he thawed out. Freezer burn, hypothermia, or drowning, one of those things should have killed him by the time the avengers happened to notice him floating by.

According to the 2011 Miniseries Captain America: Hail Hydra which talks about the predecessor organizations of HYDRA and their 7000-year long quest to "achieve immortality, conquer death, and create a new race of gods" via five encounters between Cap and Hydra through his history, The agelessness of Super SOldiers was not an intended function of Erksine's formula.

During the first issue of that series(which took place during WWII), Captain America was injected, against his will, with something called the "Lazarus Formula" becuase Dr. Geist was curious as to how it would interact with the Super Soldier Serum.

The Lazarus formula is usually injected into a corpse. In a fresh corpse, it brings the person back to life, rebuilds their body to peak human potential, and then grants superhuman strength and toughness(though there are obvious signs that they were dead at somepoint) In an old corpse, you get zombies. Zombies fully aware of who they are and are trapped in the agony of a half-rotten body.

Initially, the people revived by the formula seemed a bit... Thuggish, a bit like the classic Universal version of Frankenstein's monster, but Erkling, one of the subjects, was later shown to be fully functional in a social sense. It's not clear if this was the result of the formula finishing repairing his body or if he got an upgrade at somepoint.

Nobody knows what effect if any, the formula had on Cap: He's had Hank Pym looking into it on and off for years, and the results are inconclusive.

Erlking claims that the Lazarus formula is responsible for Cap's longevity and miraculous survival: He himself eventually fully recovered from all pre and post-death damage and hasn't aged a day since the 40s. Now, since Bradly and Protocide have eternal youth, that is at least partially false, but subjects of the Lazarus formula don't need to eat or breathe and can't be permanently killed by anything short of incineration.

It is entirely possible that the small dose of the formula Cap was given is why he survived being frozen for decades and didn't drown when he thawed out.

While Cap has been killed, it's usually in ways that are inherently temporary(like the 'dimension scrambling bullet' he got shot with at the end of civil war.) or is otherwise quickly undone. He's never really experienced anything that would prove or disprove if he's gotten any benefit of the Lazarus formula.

[Particle_Man]

Hard to think of things not covered in the webcomic already. I personally like mismatches between theme and mechanics. Think of the Warlock. In the heat of battle the Warlock activates the Supernatural power known as Fiendish Resilience. . . . and heals one hit point. Kinda felt on hearing the name that there would be more juice there.

This was covered in the comic but the 1000 gp price tag on the humble telescope is funny too. Also in the comic: how enlarge person does nothing to your movement rate.

Funny but kinda horrific is the casual mention in the DMG of the hide of sentient creatures as a special material for armour. You know, mithral, adamantine or the skin of Gargorax the Golden Dragon. If I were a dragon I would hire a team of lawyers!

And special mention to the Green Star Adept, who relentlessly competes with others to eat green space rocks and so become less effective, especially on reaching the capstone of vulnerability at level 10.

And speaking of odd rocks, while I love the Sapphire Hierarch, they basically worship exactly the sort of prognosticating computer that Captain James T. Kirk could logic to death in under a minute.

Also a friend pointed out that most energy types are associated with an elemental or energy plane to in some way metaphysically ground it in most settings. Except sonic, which exists because . . . bards?

[Nifft]

I came here to mention the Calzone Golem from the Something's Cooking free adventure (which is currently imprisoned somewhere).


1 pound of wheat (worth 1 cp) can be crafted into 1.5 ponds of flour (worth 3 cp). Local franklin triples his income with this one weird trick using only natural ingredients and insects!

Feudal lords hate him!

[ShurikVch]

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that the fact that there are stories with magic users more powerful than mundanes doesn't mean an imbalance like that is a good idea for what's supposed to be a cooperative game (and that the opposite imbalance, with mundanes much more powerful than casters, would be just as bad).
My point is: persons of vastly different power levels adventuring together is a well-established trope, and all the "balance" talks should stop long ago.
Situations when player rolled a Fighter or Monk and then complains they're played as a Fighter or Monk are ridiculous and shouldn't be blamed on the system
I don't care how unexperienced players or DM, I would ask: "What's you expected? Come on - by common logic?"



Bad example
At the second glance, he may be - Sorcerer Supreme shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for a spellcasters
It was just one of the "team's mages" which was relatively easy to remember
But I digress...


Doctor Strange is powerful, but that power comes at a price: all Magic has a cost, and the majority of humans don't have enough mystical gas in the tank to cast even the most minor of spells. Even with the Vishanti subsidizing Strange's mystical energy with their own, Strange is still accumulating debt to the various deities and cosmic beings he invokes with his spells and has to work tireless to pay it off less his ability to use the spells be taken away. Their used to be a cult in the Himalayas that took the majority of the Sorcerer Supreme's debt onto themselves, but Strange nixed that when he found out it was part of the deal

And some of those beings aren't very nice: The Crimson Bands of Cytorrek draw on the same power that keeps the Juggernaut going.

Furthermore, years of using magic have ruined Strange's body becuase he's channeling more power than a human body can handle. Externally, he looks healthy enough, but his guts are a Lovecraftian nightmare of tumors and misshapen and misplaced organs. He can't eat normal food anymore, and the things he can eat are slowly killing him.

If you restrict Strange to only the powers he can use without hurting himself or putting him into debt with something that, at best, doesn't pay humanity much mind, then he can read minds and astral project for a few hours a day and he has a couple of interesting gadgets and a sword.

And, well, he also knows karate.
Is it the same Doctor Strange (https://imgur.com/vRxt9dD) we're speaking of?.. :smallconfused:


years of using magic have ruined Strange's body
Tell it to Raistlin Majere. I'm sure he would be interested.
Or to Sheev Palpatine...
Heck, Tony Stark died from the very first use!..
And let's not even start about the magic in Warhammer...



Captain America on the other hand is an immortal powerhouse who is as strong, tough, as hearty, as fast, as agile, as smart, and when it comes to tactics, martial arts, and the use of weapons and vehicles, as skilled as it is possible for a human to be. He has infinite memory capacity and perfect recall. Once he develops a skill, it never degrades from lack of use. His entire body is perfect from the surface of his skin to every last individual peptide bond. All of his body structures, entire systems down to the placement of individual molecules, and all of these perfect structures work in perfect concert. No drawbacks whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong - Cap is effective in his own segment
But in the Strange' trade - he may be not just inadequate, but, essentially, useless



Strange might have more raw power, but unless you're a Supernatural being or somehow able to cheat the system, Magic's a trap option in the Marvel Universe.
Really?
How about Brother Voodoo?
Agatha Harkness?
Claire Voyant?
Doctor Druid?
Victor von Doom?
Scarlet Witch?



Also a Bad example: Hagrid is a wizard. Considering that he's fully proficient with almost every spell he casts despite using a broken wand, he's a pretty damn good one. He is theoretically capable of everything Voldemort is.
Every wizard or witch in the Harry Potter universe are "theoretically capable of everything Voldemort is" - there are very few skills which can't be just learned (except for Parseltongue - it, actually, one of rare abilities which can't be learned)
But Hagrid isn't famous for his magic.
On a cursory glance - what we can remember of his spellcasting?
Failed attempt to turn Dudley into a pig? The keyword is "failed".
Next to a hacks like Lockhart he didn't look that bad.
But next to a competent wizards like Flitwick?..


He's also superhumanly strong, superhumanly tough, and impervious to most low and moderate level attack spells.
Yes.
But I mentioned Hagrid not just because he's strong and tough (for it, I could use, say, Vincent Crabbe), but because he attended the same school and at the same time as Voldemort

[Rater202]

Really?
How about Brother Voodoo?
Agatha Harkness?
Claire Voyant?
Doctor Druid?
Victor von Doom?Every last one of them has to be careful how they use their magic becuase in the absence of an external source of energy every spell causes them to accrue debt.

Since they're not Doctor Strange, the debt they accrue hits harder becuase they don't have a trio of Cosmic Tier super gods giving them free magic power to cover most of it.

That's the secret of magic in the Marvel universe: For the vast majority of mortals, it's not your power and if the person whose Mojo you're aping says no, it just gets taken away.

A conflict in the current Excaliber run is that a cult of sorcerers called Coven Akkaba is stirring up trouble and trying to get Britain to riot over a mutant(Betsy Braddock) being the current Captain Britain.

They are doing this becuase Morgan Le Fae usurped control of Avalon, which is the source of all British Magic, and cut them off becuase she herself was having a little bitch-fit becuase Otherworld itself opened up a portal between Avalon and the new Mutant Nation and wanted the mutant nation destroyed for the insult.

Unless you are a god, or a fairy, or a Giant, or a dragon, becoming a Sorcerer in the Marvel universe is a trap option: Every spell puts you in debt to someone and unless you find a way to weasel out of it, eventually they're gonna collect.

Most of them are smart enough not to press their luck, while Doom is an arrogant son of a bitch who probably embraces the thrill and challenge of trying to outsmart beings who could turn him inside out with a thought.
Scarlet Witch?

Wanda is a mutant with powers of probability and energy control who was exposed prenatally and in her youth to the magical radiation of Mount Wundergore, contained which is the physical body of the Dread Elder God Cthon, and was then in her childhood discretely subjected to experiments by the High Evolutionary to advance her abilities to absurd levels.

Wanda basically stole a significant amount of power from the God of Dark Magic, which means she's cheating the system. She has the energy to cover the costs and does not accrue debt.

She's cheating the system, essentially, but since she's using Chaos magic she's got her own problems to deal with.

[Batcathat]

My point is: persons of vastly different power levels adventuring together is a well-established trope, and all the "balance" talks should stop long ago.

It sure is, but a piece of non-interactive fiction and a cooperative game aren't the same thing. I don't think it's that odd that people want to be able to play different archetypes of characters without being vastly outclassed by other party members in both power and versatility.

Not to mention that in a lot of those stories (though admittedly not all of them), the less powerful people can at least shine in their specific areas, which frequently isn't the case in D&D.


Situations when player rolled a Fighter or Monk and then complains they're played as a Fighter or Monk are ridiculous and shouldn't be blamed on the system
I don't care how unexperienced players or DM, I would ask: "What's you expected? Come on - by common logic?"

Perhaps they expected that playing any of the options presented to them would enable them to contribute to a roughly equal degree as people who picked other options? How stupid of them.

Casters being able to solve any type of problem and non-casters being lucky to solve on or two types with any skill isn't a law of nature. It's a design choice and while not necessarily a bad one (people do like D&D despite the vast imbalance, after all) it's certainly not the only one.

[H_H_F_F]

It's pointless: what good make you to be healed, if you die anyway just two rounds later?


Iron Heart Suuuuuuuurge

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not 1st party, or even 2nd, but the various sourcebooks regarding sex. Yes, the BoEF has some useful things splattered across a few of its pages (such as the gestation charts), but by and large, how many gaming groups are actually going to use that kind of thing? At least the one on crossbreeding (Encyclopedia Arcane: Crossbreeding, Flesh and Blood) could give a DM guidance on how to make hybrid monsters, but there's not much else in any of them, other than material to roll your eyes at (or if you're a child, giggle at uncontrollably, and probably uncomfortably).

And despite being marked as "For Mature Audiences," most of the content is anything but mature.

[RNightstalker]

The entirety of the ELH, special mention to epic spellcasting.

^^Well said...I'd like to know if it was actually playtested at all. The Epic Feat Superior Initiative doesn't stack with non-epic Improved initiative? Doesn't sound too epic to me.

[noob]

truename dispelling giving omniscience for one instant and allowing you to change everything in that instant.

[Ottriman]

The Antimagic Field spell has always been this for me.

It's a magical effect... That suppresses all magical effects. It always felt like saying that there's this special water that dries everything it touches.

[Gruftzwerg]

It always felt like saying that there's this special water that dries everything it touches.

Sounds like WD40 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40)to me (WD = Water Displacement).

"It looks like "special water" and dries everything it touches."

We live in 2021, we have all kind of miracles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs)^^

[Ottriman]

Sounds like WD40 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40)to me (WD = Water Displacement).

"It looks like "special water" and dries everything it touches."

We live in 2021, we have all kind of miracles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs)^^

Ok, maybe bad example from me. But I think people get the idea.

Thread tax: The way getting out of a stomach works in this game (ala Swallow Whole ability). You can cut your way out without inflicting catastrophic damage, and then "muscular action" somehow closes the gaping hole even on monsters that don't otherwise regenerate. :smalleek:

[Eldan]

truename dispelling giving omniscience for one instant and allowing you to change everything in that instant.

Wait, what?

I'm away from books. Elaborate?

[noob]

Wait, what?

I'm away from books. Elaborate?

It is based on iron heart surge levels of interpretation.(like when you say "I iron heart surge the errata" and other fun stuff like that)

[Rater202]

...Yeah, being able to turn the sun off by sheer force of will is kind of silly.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Poverty sucks. Oh, I know! IRON HEART SURRRRRGE!"

[Gruftzwerg]

...Yeah, being able to turn the sun off by sheer force of will is kind of silly.

Characters with Iron Heart Surge never get sunburn or even suntan. The sun wouldn't dare to challenge em.

[Rater202]

The fact that manufacturing magic items costs experience points always seemed weird tome.

It's just... Stupid. It's incredibly stupid. The idea that forging magic items makes you weaker as you imbue our power into the item might make sense... In a setting where power wasn't literally a factor of how experienced you at what you're doing.

As is, you're essentially just losing knowledge/memory and th power that comes with it when you lose experience points.

Weapons of LEgacy being already forged magi items that require not only XP but feats to bring to their full power while... Not being even remotely worsth the cost, being at best equal to what o'll probably find in a cave or shop is also stupid.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Weapons of LEgacy being already forged magi items that require not only XP but feats to bring to their full power while... Not being even remotely worsth the cost, being at best equal to what o'll probably find in a cave or shop is also stupid.+1 on this one, for sure. Legacy items are the very definition of "trap option." They take XP (and feats*) to use, and they actively make you worse by inflicting massive penalties on you.






*Yes, spending XP gives you the feats, but you can take the feats if you want.

[Feldar]

Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.

And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.

Alignments as written, if read literally, are definitely dumb.


The fact that manufacturing magic items costs experience points always seemed weird tome.

It's just... Stupid. It's incredibly stupid. The idea that forging magic items makes you weaker as you imbue our power into the item might make sense... In a setting where power wasn't literally a factor of how experienced you at what you're doing.

As is, you're essentially just losing knowledge/memory and th power that comes with it when you lose experience points.

To that stupid I would add the stupidity of making crafted items cost less than market price, and not by a small amount -- by a large amount. This total wrecks campaign economy and has an adverse impact on power levels.

[Efrate]

WoL is a super neat thing, like pretty much all of the ToM, which was implemented terribly. A weapon that grows with a user and needs quests to unlock is much cooler than another pile of +1 longswords. The penalty aspect annoys me to no end. A minor bonus that mundaneor alchemial stuff can do better is not worth permanent HP loss. A penalty that is removed if you do not do the ritual on time is okay, but having your grandfathers sword actively hurt you an be inferior to what you buy in magic mart is bad design.

[Azuresun]

This is a subset of alignment, but Ravages. See, good characters can't use poison, because poisoning someone (even using knockout poison) is more evil than bloodily slashing them to death. But the Book of Exalted Deeds introduced Ravages, which work exactly like poison, but only work on evil beings, so they're a-ok for good characters to use. If it's okay to use these things on evil beings, couldn't you use a poison on those evil beings that has the exact same effect? Look, you just don't understand good and evil, okay?!

Oh, and the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain from the Book of Vile Darkness, just....for the name.

(edit) You know, I think at least half of those books would qualify for this thread.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain from the Book of Vile Darkness, just....for the name.It's a slotless item, so if I'm getting one, it's going to be an ioun stone or something.

[Rater202]

A Dragonborn of Bahamut loses some but not all of the biological traits of their previous race.

They also lose most of the cultural traits of their previous race.

Like, A human's bonus feat or Dwarven stone cunning is meant to be the product of how they were brought up. Changing race shouldn't change that.

(My personal preference would be to ignore that Dragonborn takes anything away and just Street it as an LA+0 template. Same with Hellbred, but some would argue that doing that punishes people who elect not to take that race.)

[Ottriman]

This is a subset of alignment, but Ravages. See, good characters can't use poison, because poisoning someone (even using knockout poison) is more evil than bloodily slashing them to death. But the Book of Exalted Deeds introduced Ravages, which work exactly like poison, but only work on evil beings, so they're a-ok for good characters to use. If it's okay to use these things on evil beings, couldn't you use a poison on those evil beings that has the exact same effect? Look, you just don't understand good and evil, okay?!

Oh, and the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain from the Book of Vile Darkness, just....for the name.

(edit) You know, I think at least half of those books would qualify for this thread.

Yeah Book of Exalted Deeds has a lot of stuff in it that is just baffling.

Like the spell that traps the opponent in a gemstone and brainwashes them to your side being a super extra good exalted spell.

[Calthropstu]

Glorytongue. Just why?
Also, Book of Erotic Fantasy. Again, just Why?

[togapika]

The infinite loop/Schrödinger of Dragon Disciple where you are and are not a half-dragon

[Rater202]

You still die of old age when you don't age.

Like, that's not how it works. You don't run out of time, death by old age happens because some vital part of you wore down and broke. Aging is just a combination of inefficiencies in cellular division and regeneration combined with everyday stressors and wear and tear slowly declining the quality of the "machine" that is your body.

A timeless body that not only stops aging but reverses the damage accrued prior to acquiring your unaging body, by all means, should let you live indefinitely.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You still die of old age when you don't age.

Like, that's not how it works. You don't run out of time, death by old age happens because some vital part of you wore down and broke. Aging is just a combination of inefficiencies in cellular division and regeneration combined with everyday stressors and wear and tear slowly declining the quality of the "machine" that is your body.

A timeless body that not only stops aging but reverses the damage accrued prior to acquiring your unaging body, by all means, should let you live indefinitely.But biological immortality is horribly broken somehow! I mean, 99.999% of games it won't matter in, and getting immortality in 3e is stupidly easy, but just handing that out is still broken!

...somehow!

[Ursus Spelaeus]

1 pound of wheat (worth 1 cp) can be crafted into 1.5 ponds of flour (worth 3 cp).
Maybe the flour just has a lot of grit in it from the grindstone? Commoners would probably end up with really bad teeth.

[Rater202]

But biological immortality is horribly broken somehow! I mean, 99.999% of games it won't matter in, and getting immortality in 3e is stupidly easy, but just handing that out is still broken!

...somehow!

People say that getting it is stupidly easy, but I've never actually seen someone explain immortality in 3e. Closses I can find is a Lich, but even then you can still die it's just there's extra steps.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

People say that getting it is stupidly easy, but I've never actually seen someone explain immortality in 3e. Closses I can find is a Lich, but even then you can still die it's just there's extra steps.http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.0

And I'm pretty sure there are significantly more than what's there.

[Calthropstu]

People say that getting it is stupidly easy, but I've never actually seen someone explain immortality in 3e. Closses I can find is a Lich, but even then you can still die it's just there's extra steps.

Polymorph any object into something that doesn't age.
Keep true mind switching into younger people.
The psionic sandwich trick.
Reincarnate.
Mind seed.
Astral Projection then temporal stasis on your original body.

There's a lot of ways.

[Rater202]

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.0

And I'm pretty sure there are significantly more than what's there.

That's not real immortality, that's just not-dying of old age. It's all basically just doing what Timeless Body should be doing.

Honestly, it makes timeless body not doing it even dumber since there are multiple ways to get the same or similar effect that are explicitly intended to do the same.

[calam]

The fact that longer lived races age slowly rather than just spending more time in their prime so elves take over a century to become an adult.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's not real immortality, that's just not-dying of old age. It's all basically just doing what Timeless Body should be doing.

Honestly, it makes timeless body not doing it even dumber since there are multiple ways to get the same or similar effect that are explicitly intended to do the same.
im·mor·tal·i·ty
/ˌi(m)ˌmôrˈtalədē/
noun: immortality
the ability to live forever; eternal life.
"eating the fruit gave the gods immortality"

Source: Oxford Languages

The ability to live forever doesn't preclude someone taking that ability from you by force. So if nothing actively kills you, you'll live forever.

Note that the ability to be immortal also doesn't preclude the ability to be invulnerable, and there are numerous ways to do that, too.


The fact that longer lived races age slowly rather than just spending more time in their prime so elves take over a century to become an adult."When will I get out of diapers?"

"When you stop wetting the bed, dear."

"But I'm 50 years old!"

[Harrow]

Feats have already been brought up in a general sense, but I'd like to bring special attention to Power Attack. Being able to put a little more "oomph" in an attack, but sacrificing control in doing so makes sense and doesn't seem silly at all to me. But, being a feat, a special technique that you need to dedicate training to in order to pull off, that's just wacky in my book.

While that's one of the biggest offenders to me, so many of the Fighter feats in the Player's Handbook just feel like they took something every fighter should be able to do, like fire an arrow into melee or bull rush someone, then gated them behind feats. It just all feels like padding. And there still aren't enough feats in core for a 20th level Fighter to have anything to be excited over picking for his "capstone".

[Endarire]

Trying to balance (including the relevant assumptions about its doability or intentionality) the game over 20+ levels between those who can't meaningfully cast and those who can.

[Ottriman]

The fact that the Epic Level Handbook mostly just presents "epic" threats and creatures as the same as normal but with bigger numbers. All around the expectation that people have a small tactical fight match in a dungeon even when the players are creating and travelling between planes with epic magics.

[noob]

The fact that the Epic Level Handbook mostly just presents "epic" threats and creatures as the same as normal but with bigger numbers. All around the expectation that people have a small tactical fight match in a dungeon even when the players are creating and travelling between planes with epic magics.
Then you get an epic creature or two with epic spells that just devastate a huge section of a country on casting.

[danielxcutter]

I made a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?519839-Funny-bits-of-canon-D-amp-D-3-5-lore) precisely about this subject a few years ago.

For starters, this is what I opened the thread with:


In settlements where rilkans are the majority, other races are welcomed with open arms. This extends even to bugbears, orcs, gnolls, and other “monstrous” races, as long as they keep the peace. In one famous rilkan city, the head of the Sewer Workers Guild is an intelligent gelatinous cube.

That should probably give you the idea of what's in there.

[Rater202]

The Monk's capstone ability seems to be written with the assumption that at level 20 you're only ever going to be fighting ordinary low-level monsters and people with non-magical weaponry.

Also, the alignment and multiclass restrictions on Monk are all kind of stupid.

[danielxcutter]

The Monk's capstone ability seems to be written with the assumption that at level 20 you're only ever going to be fighting ordinary low-level monsters and people with non-magical weaponry.

Also, the alignment and multiclass restrictions on Monk are all kind of stupid.

Aside from maybe Flurry of Blows, it feels like they stretched out six levels' worth of abilities across twenty.

You know, I'm not sure how much of the imbalance of some classes was incompetence and how much was intentional.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Monk's capstone ability seems to be written with the assumption that at level 20 you're only ever going to be fighting ordinary low-level monsters and people with non-magical weaponry.Rogues don't get a capstone at all. In fact, there's almost no reason at all to take rogue 20 that wouldn't be better served in some other class.

And taking wizard or sorcerer 1 is more powerful than monk 20. At least they can "slow fall" (feather fall) without being next to a wall. They can also make their weapons magical via magic weapon. They can also be the recipients of enlarge person (if humanoid), which is more than monk 20s can do. Which is just sad.

[RexDart]

How about class skills? It's never made much sense to me why, for example, a fighter who wants to learn Use Rope or Diplomacy can only do so at a severe penalty.

My DM uses a house rule called "skills by character," which gives each character 20 skill slots to choose as personal "class skills," and can be whatever the character wants. So effectively it does away with the "class skill" concept for all but the most extreme players taking the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to character progression. (The 20 skill slots are supposed to be chosen at character creation, but in practice, the DM doesn't really enforce this.)

I can't really see any downside to this approach. Is there anything game-breaking about letting characters take whatever the hell they want to put skill points in?

[Efrate]

UMD abuse mostly. But its a tax for martials often enough, and definately for skill monkies, but it lets you remain relevant by being your own primary buff supplier. Or wizards taking skill monkey spotlight time but beguiler does that already. Pushes your tiers further apart because your int based caster classes can even more obliviate the need for a skill monkey, and cha based casters do an ecen better job of being a face. All the SAD classes get better, and it adds more MAD to already MAD classes.

[Sam K]

Multi-class penalties?

[Wildstag]

In my eyes, the Special prerequisites for Swiftblade is one of the silliest things written for that edition.

It makes sense, but they stopped just short of saying "you have an addiction, a need for speed" in that prestige class' description.

[Nifft]

How about class skills? It's never made much sense to me why, for example, a fighter who wants to learn Use Rope or Diplomacy can only do so at a severe penalty.

My DM uses a house rule called "skills by character," which gives each character 20 skill slots to choose as personal "class skills," and can be whatever the character wants. So effectively it does away with the "class skill" concept for all but the most extreme players taking the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to character progression. (The 20 skill slots are supposed to be chosen at character creation, but in practice, the DM doesn't really enforce this.)

I can't really see any downside to this approach. Is there anything game-breaking about letting characters take whatever the hell they want to put skill points in? Most such things are there for niche protection, like Trapfinding existing at all -- would it really hurt the game to let a Monk or Ranger find the traps?



In my eyes, the Special prerequisites for Swiftblade is one of the silliest things written for that edition.

It makes sense, but they stopped just short of saying "you have an addiction, a need for speed" in that prestige class' description.

... a sickness for quickness, a taste for haste ...

[One Step Two]

Most such things are there for niche protection, like Trapfinding existing at all -- would it really hurt the game to let a Monk or Ranger find the traps?

That's another aspect that bugged me, Track is a feat that anyone can take, but trapfinding is far more niche.




... a sickness for quickness, a taste for haste ...

A particularity towards alacrity, an agreeability towards agility?

[Ottriman]

Can I simply nominate the entire design of the Monk class?

MAD as heck, cannot use a lot of gear all that well, flurry of blows is more flurry of misses and class features in general mostly just seem to compensate for not using equipment without pushing any past that.

Meaning that a fighter can get most of this stuff through gear... But also have bonus feats on top....

It's sad that even core fighter is better than Monk, but Monk was still believed to be strong because its abilities were flashier than fighter ones.

[danielxcutter]

Can I simply nominate the entire design of the Monk class?

MAD as heck, cannot use a lot of gear all that well, flurry of blows is more flurry of misses and class features in general mostly just seem to compensate for not using equipment without pushing any past that.

Meaning that a fighter can get most of this stuff through gear... But also have bonus feats on top....

It's sad that even core fighter is better than Monk, but Monk was still believed to be strong because its abilities were flashier than fighter ones.

Among other things they vastly underestimated everything that wasn't damage; I hear the playtesters were horrible at optimization. The druid did nothing but use their returning throwing scimitar and the wizard didn't do much besides Fireball.

Sometimes I wonder if they intentionally hosed martials, but that's probably not it.

[Ottriman]

Among other things they vastly underestimated everything that wasn't damage; I hear the playtesters were horrible at optimization. The druid did nothing but use their returning throwing scimitar and the wizard didn't do much besides Fireball.

Sometimes I wonder if they intentionally hosed martials, but that's probably not it.

Yeah, lack of playtesting was a huge problem with 3,5 edition in general.

[noob]

Also the testing team fought a balor with the wizard using only magic weapon, a bow and a quiver full of arrows(like Why???) and somehow for some reason the wizard did more damage than the others.(I believe mostly through luck with critical strikes)

[Rater202]

Can I simply nominate the entire design of the Monk class?

MAD as heck, cannot use a lot of gear all that well, flurry of blows is more flurry of misses and class features in general mostly just seem to compensate for not using equipment without pushing any past that.

Meaning that a fighter can get most of this stuff through gear... But also have bonus feats on top....

It's sad that even core fighter is better than Monk, but Monk was still believed to be strong because its abilities were flashier than fighter ones.

One of the reasons I see people liking gestalt so much is that a gestalt monk/fighter is actually semi-capable of what base monk is supposed to be.

[noob]

One of the reasons I see people liking gestalt so much is that a gestalt monk/fighter is actually semi-capable of what base monk is supposed to be.

Gestalting monk barbarian probably makes life easier than monk fighter.

[Rater202]

Gestalting monk barbarian probably makes life easier than monk fighter.

Only if you ignore alignment restrictions: Barbarians must be non-Lawful while Monks can only be Lawful.

[danielxcutter]

Also the testing team fought a balor with the wizard using only magic weapon, a bow and a quiver full of arrows(like Why???) and somehow for some reason the wizard did more damage than the others.(I believe mostly through luck with critical strikes)

This is one of the things that fuel my probably-irrational conspiracy theory that they intentionally tanked martial options to make "jock" type characters suck.

[noob]

Only if you ignore alignment restrictions: Barbarians must be non-Lawful while Monks can only be Lawful.

use ordered chaos?




Your alignment is not affected by the Abyssal heritor feats you possess. Spells and effects that are keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, as well as your actual alignment. For example, you become immune to spells such as chaos hammer and word of chaos, you could wield an anarchic weapon without fear of gaining a negative level, and you could take the Primordial Scion feat despite its chaotic alignment prerequisite
It says spells and effects counts you as if you were both loyal and chaotic but then mentions filling the requirements of a feat needing chaotic alignment as a possibility(so it means it is probably legitimate to use that to fill prerequisites)

I am not sure if that feat should enter the silly category or not.(but it is one more data point toward effect being extremely vague and encompassing)

[Calthropstu]

Only if you ignore alignment restrictions: Barbarians must be non-Lawful while Monks can only be Lawful.

Let us meditate on the truths of life in peace and solitude... AFTER I RIP YOUR FACE OFF.

[Ottriman]

One of the reasons I see people liking gestalt so much is that a gestalt monk/fighter is actually semi-capable of what base monk is supposed to be.

Gestalt is actually a very good way to make less viable concepts better in general.


Let us meditate on the truths of life in peace and solitude... AFTER I RIP YOUR FACE OFF.

Now that's something a murderhobo can get behind!

[Rater202]

The Mountebank class in Dragon Compendium's capstone gives you the half-fiend template for free... but also takes away control of the character.

There's no other class I can think of that actively punishes you for taking it to 20.

[Zombulian]

The fact that longer lived races age slowly rather than just spending more time in their prime so elves take over a century to become an adult.

Right? This was bothering me recently. If time to adulthood really is retarded, then all long-lived races should have wisdom bonuses and extra skill points, right?

[H_H_F_F]

I've worked succesfully with D&D races, and seen others have - but the book expects you to approach them in a way that doesn't make any ****ing sense. They can all gain EXP at the same rate, they all think just as quickly on their feat, but elves have centuries to gather their experiences. Yet they just mingle with humans like it's nothing, and level 1 elves are just walking all over the place instead of being treated by their parents as junior-high students who need to grow up and have basic capabilities before facing the outside world.

The lifespans of Elves and Dwarves are influenced by Tolkien, except his world treated those things as significant, and made sense.


Other than that, another aspect I find silly is the way intimidation works in combat, especially with imperious command. "Oh god, I'm really scared of that guy. I'm going to drop my wepaon, go down to my knees and surrender for 6 seconds before getting back up and fighting like nothing ever happened." Works nothing close to any real world fear reaction I've seen or experienced.

[Zombulian]

Feats have already been brought up in a general sense, but I'd like to bring special attention to Power Attack. Being able to put a little more "oomph" in an attack, but sacrificing control in doing so makes sense and doesn't seem silly at all to me. But, being a feat, a special technique that you need to dedicate training to in order to pull off, that's just wacky in my book.

While that's one of the biggest offenders to me, so many of the Fighter feats in the Player's Handbook just feel like they took something every fighter should be able to do, like fire an arrow into melee or bull rush someone, then gated them behind feats. It just all feels like padding. And there still aren't enough feats in core for a 20th level Fighter to have anything to be excited over picking for his "capstone".

Yeah a houserule I currently run in my games is that every full BAB class gets PA for free. Even that may be too restrictive honestly, it should probably just be a choice you can make on melee attacks no matter your class.

[Wildstag]

Yeah, lack of playtesting was a huge problem with 3,5 edition in general.

The druid example was from the 3.0 playtest, and their build appeared in "Enemies and Allies", which was released in 2001. Also it was a +2 KEEN throwing returning scimitar! Also they took Improved Critical (Scimitar) and Scribe Scroll. At least, that's what was in their level 15 build.


Also the testing team fought a balor with the wizard using only magic weapon, a bow and a quiver full of arrows(like Why???) and somehow for some reason the wizard did more damage than the others.(I believe mostly through luck with critical strikes)

As near as I can tell, that wasn't part of the 3.5 playtest, that was an entirely separate story. It is featured in the article "Tactics in Action" on the WotC archives, specifically in the "Tactics and Tips" line of articles. It is dated to August 2005, which would put it a couple years AFTER 3.5 was released.

[Nifft]

Right? This was bothering me recently. If time to adulthood really is retarded, then all long-lived races should have wisdom bonuses and extra skill points, right?

Maybe elves sleep for the last ~80 years of adolescence.

Teens need more sleep, you know.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe elves sleep for the last ~80 years of adolescence.

Teens need more sleep, you know.Maybe they were all drunk for that time. I'd want to drink my problems away too, if my problem was "being an elf."

They do have a -2 Con, so it's easier to get hammered.

[Rater202]

Sorcerer's only meaningful class feature, aside from spellcasting, is the situational usefulness of having a familiar.

While the sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a wizard, hey can only know so many spells while a wizard can theoretically learn an infite number of spells. A wizard at level 20 will have more spells than they know what to do with, while a sorcerer at 20 will, excluding cantrips, always know fewer spells than they can cast in a day.

they also get access to spells of a new level at a slower pace than wizards.

It honestly seems like the des want to punish you for not having to prepare spells ahead of time and then be locked into them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorcerer's only meaningful class feature, aside from spellcasting, is the situational usefulness of having a familiar.

While the sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a wizard, hey can only know so many spells while a wizard can theoretically learn an infite number of spells. A wizard at level 20 will have more spells than they know what to do with, while a sorcerer at 20 will, excluding cantrips, always know fewer spells than they can cast in a day.

they also get access to spells of a new level at a slower pace than wizards.

It honestly seems like the des want to punish you for not having to prepare spells ahead of time and then be locked into them.The gap between spells per day between wizard and sorcerer is closed significantly when the wizard has more high level spells for almost half their levels. The 9th level sorcerer may have more 1st level spells, but the wizard has more 5th level spells -- 'cuz the sorcerer doesn't have any!

[Nifft]

Maybe they were all drunk for that time. I'd want to drink my problems away too, if my problem was "being an elf."

* adds Maxi to the Do Not Reincarnate list *

--- --- ---

Back on topic, the Reincarnate spell has had some silly incarnations -- especially the 3.0e version, where your PC could come back as an animal.

"You died near a level 7 Druid. Would you like to roll up a new character now, or would you like the party to spend $1k gp turning you into a horse before you roll up a new character?"

(In an old game I made a bar called The Menagerie which was frequented by Awakened animals, Reincarnate victims, and familiars who had lost their masters.)

[danielxcutter]

Sorcerer's only meaningful class feature, aside from spellcasting, is the situational usefulness of having a familiar.

While the sorcerer can cast more spells per day than a wizard, hey can only know so many spells while a wizard can theoretically learn an infite number of spells. A wizard at level 20 will have more spells than they know what to do with, while a sorcerer at 20 will, excluding cantrips, always know fewer spells than they can cast in a day.

they also get access to spells of a new level at a slower pace than wizards.

It honestly seems like the des want to punish you for not having to prepare spells ahead of time and then be locked into them.

I think Monte Cook was trying to punish them; that’s also why they’re screwed when applying metamagic feats.

[animewatcha]

Let us meditate on the truths of life in peace and solitude... AFTER I RIP YOUR FACE OFF.

Cause HE IS THE LAW!!!

[noob]

Cause HE IS THE LAW!!!

That is the great thing about ordered chaos: you can say "I am the law of chaos!"

[Rater202]

I think Monte Cook was trying to punish them; that’s also why they’re screwed when applying metamagic feats.

Yeah, which makes no sense: It should be easier for the caster who uses magic intuitively by force of will to customize their spells than the wizard who learns them academically and pre-prepares them with formulas and rituals.

[noob]

Yeah, which makes no sense: It should be easier for the caster who uses magic intuitively by force of will to customize their spells than the wizard who learns them academically and pre-prepares them with formulas and rituals.

I think that sorcerers drawing from the same spell list is even weirder.
I mean why would intuitively casting spells suddenly result you in casting a spell a wizard scholar invented just 40 years ago without even having seen that spell?
Or why do sorcerer casts the same fireball as the wizard next to it: it could be instead a fire stream or instead throw an huge glob of burning tar or whatever instead of just being literally the same wizard small grenade orb.
(I understand using the same lightning bolt because it is the simplest way to do it and I understand having the same polymorph because it would be an hell to make a sorcerer variant of it and make it truly look different but many spells like magic missile or fireball or melf acid arrow being the same just looks odd)

[Eldan]

Which is why some people argue that sorcerers should have a system more similar to psionics, with adaptable spells.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, which makes no sense: It should be easier for the caster who uses magic intuitively by force of will to customize their spells than the wizard who learns them academically and pre-prepares them with formulas and rituals.

Eh, I can see the argument for that - if you're casting intuitively instead of learning about them properly you don't know how they work well enough to modify them, for example - but I think there was in fact an interview where Cook more or less practically said he screwed them over on purpose.

[Azuresun]

The entirety of the ELH, special mention to epic spellcasting.

There was a thread on the WotC forums way back when, about the weirdest epic spells people could make entirely by the rules. From memory, these two in particular stand out:

Mountain of Halflings: You summon 1000 halflings 50ft above your enemy. Refer to the avalanche rules in the DMG.

Summon Fred: You summon Fred, the Involuntary Wanderer of Hamblesworth. Fred is a human commoner of level 1d6-1. (On a roll of 0, he is dead when summoned, and it is considered polite to resurrect him.) This is because he is constantly regularly being summoned into such horribly dangerous situations that he is constantly gaining levels and losing them to resurrections. Fred has no particular skills, other than making a great martini. This spell exerts no particular control over Fred, though he will usually just do as instructed by the incredibly powerful spellcaster who just summoned him.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What I want to know is how sorcerers have the requisite knowledge of magic such that they instinctively know that they have to dance the Macarena, sing "I'm a Little Teapot," and throw animal poo like a bad-mannered monkey in order to create a fireball spell. Are they born with a spell component pouch that automagically refills, or something? After all, their magical ability is "inborn," so all that (literal) crap is included with that.

[noob]

What I want to know is how sorcerers have the requisite knowledge of magic such that they instinctively know that they have to dance the Macarena, sing "I'm a Little Teapot," and throw animal poo like a bad-mannered monkey in order to create a fireball spell. Are they born with a spell component pouch that automagically refills, or something? After all, their magical ability is "inborn," so all that (literal) crap is included with that.

I always assumed that they just screamed "fireball!!!!" and then did swing their fists to throw fireball just like a regular anime protagonist.(the rules never says the somatic and vocal components are the same for everybody nor even that it is the same for two castings: as far as I know wizards use spell encryption to make stealing their spells harder (which would be otherwise easy to take control off since it is not will-force powered but instead magic coaxed through a ritual) and due to that needs a different vocal component at each casting)
The material component is odder.

[Rater202]

I don't like the concept of material components to be honest.

It makes sense for ritualized spells that take a long time, but having o pay in-game currency, which we are supposed to have a finite amount of by game design, as a surcharge to use my class abilities seems like a weird way to balance the game.

[Zombulian]

Yeah, which makes no sense: It should be easier for the caster who uses magic intuitively by force of will to customize their spells than the wizard who learns them academically and pre-prepares them with formulas and rituals.

5th edition basically agrees with you. Metamagic became the Sorc's main class feature, and I don't think other classes can even use metamagic at all.


Summon Fred: You summon Fred, the Involuntary Wanderer of Hamblesworth. Fred is a human commoner of level 1d6-1. (On a roll of 0, he is dead when summoned, and it is considered polite to resurrect him.) This is because he is constantly regularly being summoned into such horribly dangerous situations that he is constantly gaining levels and losing them to resurrections. Fred has no particular skills, other than making a great martini. This spell exerts no particular control over Fred, though he will usually just do as instructed by the incredibly powerful spellcaster who just summoned him.

Wow I love that a lot.


What I want to know is how sorcerers have the requisite knowledge of magic such that they instinctively know that they have to dance the Macarena, sing "I'm a Little Teapot," and throw animal poo like a bad-mannered monkey in order to create a fireball spell. Are they born with a spell component pouch that automagically refills, or something? After all, their magical ability is "inborn," so all that (literal) crap is included with that.

Psion always felt like the reasonable approach to intuitive magic to me. Both because of the mutability of their powers and the fact that their magic doesn't have components of any kind.

[Rater202]

The waythat artificers' "freebie points so you don't have to spend Xp to make items" were handled always seemed weird to me.

They don't roll over between levels. There's no reason why t should...

There's basically a finite number of items that a supposed master craftsman can make without lessening himself.

You get 5000 at level 20. What kind of magic items are you expected to have at level 20?

Okay, let's make a +5 Keen Flaming Burst Vorpal Greatsword, that sounds like a level 20 item, the weapon forged b a master craftsman of magic items.

That's a +5 enhancement bonus and another +7 from the special effects, so that's a +12 effective bonus. The average price of a weapon that enhanced doesn't even have a cost but doing some quick math 300,000 GP seems like a fair estimate.

You pay 1/25 of the GP cost in XP to make it, so... 25,000.

You'd need five 25 level artificers working together to expend their entire allotted pool of XP substitute to cover the cost of one weapon suitable for a level 20 character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, let's make a +5 Keen Flaming Burst Vorpal Greatsword, that sounds like a level 20 item, the weapon forged b a master craftsman of magic items.

That's a +5 enhancement bonus and another +7 from the special effects, so that's a +12 effective bonus. The average price of a weapon that enhanced doesn't even have a cost but doing some quick math 300,000 GP seems like a fair estimate.

You pay 1/25 of the GP cost in XP to make it, so... 25,000.

You'd need five 25 level artificers working together to expend their entire allotted pool of XP substitute to cover the cost of one weapon suitable for a level 20 character.It's much worse than that. +12 weapons are epic items, and as such, their price is multiplied by x10. So you'll need 250 artificers for it. But then, it's an epic item, so...

[Rater202]

Well, a +10 bonus would still be 8000, which is still more than a level 20 artificer can make on their own.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Speaking of epic items and silliness, paying 10x the cost for epic items sucks, especially since combinations of non-epic items tend to be much, much, much better. That, and it's super-easy (barely an inconvenience) to gain a +20 bonus equivalent weapon for just slightly more than a +10 weapon (and without the x10 multiplier). Between greater magic weapon (via the tooth of Leraje, if nothing else), stacking weapon crystal properties onto a single weapon crystal, sizing/morphing raptor arrows (for bane [everything]), and all the feats and spells out there that grant huge boosts to weapon properties, paying that x10 cost for a +11 or better weapon is just...silly.

That, and getting a +10 launcher and +10 projectiles for a +19 equivalent (as the enhancement bonuses don't stack; +24 with greater magic weapon; +25 equivalent with bane) is pretty much a given. The fact that you can get a +40 or better unarmed strike with some feats and a decent chunk of level 20 WBL is entirely doable as well. And that's without crafting. With crafting, well, that's when it really gets crazy, especially with crafting cost reducers to knock crafting costs down to virtually nothing.

[MR_Anderson]

I once found an article

Seven Ways to Kill the Tarrasque

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt

It had me rolling!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I once found an article

Seven Ways to Kill the Tarrasque

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt

It had me rolling!I thought it was silly when someone showed how four 4th level wizards (and their raven familiars) with alter self and wands of Melf's acid arrow (with some metamagic added) could put down ol' Tarry, while staying out of range. They needed a wish to keep it down, but they were capable of dealing enough damage via the wands to knock it unconscious, and Tarry couldn't reach them because they were flying (via alter self, although being innately raptoran negated that need).

[Rater202]

The Dread Necromancer has no means of summoning or creating the beings they can take as a familiar under their own power. They just have to... Find one.

[Lucas Yew]

You still die of old age when you don't age.

Like, that's not how it works. You don't run out of time, death by old age happens because some vital part of you wore down and broke. Aging is just a combination of inefficiencies in cellular division and regeneration combined with everyday stressors and wear and tear slowly declining the quality of the "machine" that is your body.

A timeless body that not only stops aging but reverses the damage accrued prior to acquiring your unaging body, by all means, should let you live indefinitely.

Oh, this. It's like if at least one of the writers of the main sources had this firm idea that members of playable races should never be immune to death by aging (or a major case of sour grapes against eternal youth on a non-deity)... Poor Monks, they have many of their source materials from Wuxia realized as relatively nerfed class features, with Timeless Body's cripple being the worst of all...


This is one of the things that fuel my probably-irrational conspiracy theory that they intentionally tanked martial options to make "jock" type characters suck.

Has the same theory too, except that I think it ain't irrational. I dub it as, <Negative Wish Fulfillment>...

[Rater202]

Swapping back around the other way to things that are actually pretty good... Rainbow Servant+War Mage or Beguiler. Technically even a Dread Necromancer can qualify since they're allowed to be neutral.

The intent is that you have a bit of divine magic bolstering your arcane magic, letting you select some cleric spells. But due to the way it's worded, the armored mages can be argued to get every single Cleric Spell that isn't exclusive to a Domain.

Since they can cast spells from their lists spontaneously, a Rainbow Servant with one of those base classes becomes the single most versatile caster in the game all becuase of ambiguous wording.

[H_H_F_F]

Swapping back around the other way to things that are actually pretty good... Rainbow Servant+War Mage or Beguiler. Technically even a Dread Necromancer can qualify since they're allowed to be neutral.

The intent is that you have a bit of divine magic bolstering your arcane magic, letting you select some cleric spells. But due to the way it's worded, the armored mages can be argued to get every single Cleric Spell that isn't exclusive to a Domain.

Since they can cast spells from their lists spontaneously, a Rainbow Servant with one of those base classes becomes the single most versatile caster in the game all becuase of ambiguous wording.

Tagging on to say this only works really well when you apply the "text trumps table" rule even though the RAI on spell progression is extremely clear here, because otherwise you're losing plenty of caster levels for that flexibility.

[danielxcutter]

Tagging on to say this only works really well when you apply the "text trumps table" rule even though the RAI on spell progression is extremely clear here, because otherwise you're losing plenty of caster levels for that flexibility.

Arguably worth it for Warmage considering that their 9ths are somewhat underwhelming and vanishingly few in number. Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of the Banshee, and Weird - not useless, but I think any 8th-level or lower Cleric spell at the drop of a hat is better. For the record, the capstone for Warmage is Sudden Maximize.

[ShurikVch]

Perhaps they expected that playing any of the options presented to them would enable them to contribute to a roughly equal degree as people who picked other options? How stupid of them.
Let's take two experts:
one have toolbox with ten (Fighter) to fifty (Monk) tools;
other one have toolbox with literal thousands of tools (and keeps getting more at every level up).
In what bizarro world they have a ghost of a chance to "contribute to a roughly equal degree"?
I mean - come on, it's not a rocket science...



Iron Heart Suuuuuuuurge
Then why you would even need a drowning-to-heal?
Just IHS the dying (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) away!..



The Antimagic Field spell has always been this for me.

It's a magical effect... That suppresses all magical effects. It always felt like saying that there's this special water that dries everything it touches.
Not "all magical effects"
Note the RAW for AMF itself:

Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.(See the Dungeon Master's Guide for more about artifacts).
Also, Invoke Magic



Thread tax: The way getting out of a stomach works in this game (ala Swallow Whole ability). You can cut your way out without inflicting catastrophic damage, and then "muscular action" somehow closes the gaping hole even on monsters that don't otherwise regenerate. :smalleek:
Honestly, it looks like Swallow Whole put victims in a pocket dimension of some kind, which have little to no relations to actual physiology of the creature in question:
You can't attack the monster from the inside (denying it from ability to dodge, and from protection of its natural armor) - except for the purpose of getting out;
You can't cast spells or manifest powers on it from the inside;
You also can't even poisoning it with ingested poison - despite being, supposedly, in its very stomach!..



The fact that manufacturing magic items costs experience points always seemed weird tome.

It's just... Stupid. It's incredibly stupid.
Well, in previous editions, they gave XP for crafting magical items
I think you can see how it could be a problem...
Munchkin player: "I would craft million of Blessed Bandages..."


The idea that forging magic items makes you weaker as you imbue our power into the item might make sense... In a setting where power wasn't literally a factor of how experienced you at what you're doing.
Actually, "What is XP?" is undefined in-game
For example, in earlier games XP was GP: you got your XP for treasures you had brought from the Dungeon
Also, very rarely you got XP for reading (in-game) various manuals and guidebooks - despite the useful information they may contain...


As is, you're essentially just losing knowledge/memory and th power that comes with it when you lose experience points.
And how it's different from how Wizard casts their magic?
I mean - they memorize a spell, cast it, - and then, suddenly, forgot it completely.
Despite memorizing it for every day for a last hundred of years
Especially dumb if the spell in question is one of the "... Word ..." spells - that is: just one word!!! (Pyrzqxgl!)
Double dumb, if the Wizard have Spell Mastery for that spell - that is: keeps the spell in question in their memory... But still forgetting it after the casting... Despite still keeping it in in their memory...
Triple dumb, if the Wizard in question memorized that spell several times: that way, they're able to forget the spell without the forgetting the spell, despite those all are still the same spell...
:smallsigh:


Weapons of LEgacy being already forged magi items that require not only XP but feats to bring to their full power while... Not being even remotely worsth the cost, being at best equal to what o'll probably find in a cave or shop is also stupid.
While examples of WoL may not worth it, you may create your own WoL, which would worth it...



To that stupid I would add the stupidity of making crafted items cost less than market price, and not by a small amount -- by a large amount. This total wrecks campaign economy and has an adverse impact on power levels.
Excuse me, but what's wrong with something being cheaper when you create it yourself rather than buying from the vendors?
("power levels" argument aside - maker can give items to other party members too)



You still die of old age when you don't age.

Like, that's not how it works. You don't run out of time, death by old age happens because some vital part of you wore down and broke. Aging is just a combination of inefficiencies in cellular division and regeneration combined with everyday stressors and wear and tear slowly declining the quality of the "machine" that is your body.

A timeless body that not only stops aging but reverses the damage accrued prior to acquiring your unaging body, by all means, should let you live indefinitely.
And it's not even limited to Timeless Body:
Say, Dragonwrought Kobold, despite don't aging physically, still dies from old age too
Also, creatures with Regeneration are able to repair all kind of damage - not just slams and stabs, but even from electricity! With such capabilities, they should live forever (unless killed by whatever their vulnerability is, suffocated, or starved to death)
Heck, even the magic is often prone to the same flaws: say, if you polymorphed into elf(/dragon/whatever) - you would still die at the end of you "normal" lifespan - despite having a body which should last much much longer... (Heck, even polymorphing into a younger person wouldn't save you from the death)
If the Grey Portrait (Champions of Ruin) is ever destroyed - you wouldn't start age at your usual speed, but instantly become as old as you should be if you never ever used the Grey Portrait...
Even being on a Timeless plane can result in a similar effect:

The danger of timeless planes is that once one leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur - sometimes retroactively. A character who hasn’t eaten for ten years in a timeless plane might be ravenous (though not dead), and one who has been "stuck" at age twenty for fifty years might now reach age seventy in a heartbeat. Traditional tales of folklore tell of places where heroes live hundreds of years, only to crumble to dust as soon as they leave.
For a counter-example: those who drunk Elixir of Eternity are explicitly continue to age - but never die from it... :smallconfused:
Also, note: not all versions of Timeless Body are the same - say, Timeless Body of Alienist really allow to live forever, but it's fate worse than death: Friends on the Other Side from the Far Realm would come and take you with them...



Can I simply nominate the entire design of the Monk class?

MAD as heck, cannot use a lot of gear all that well, flurry of blows is more flurry of misses and class features in general mostly just seem to compensate for not using equipment without pushing any past that.

Meaning that a fighter can get most of this stuff through gear... But also have bonus feats on top....

It's sad that even core fighter is better than Monk, but Monk was still believed to be strong because its abilities were flashier than fighter ones.
Note: in the 3.0, Monk had special "unarmed BAB" - still 3/4, but extra attack every 3 levels (rather than every 5). Thus, Monk was the only class in the game which was able to give 6 attacks on Full Attack without relying on TWF, natural weapons, and other trickery (and it's not Flurry of Blows - it's before the FoB)
Also, Ki strike was much more valuable in 3.0: DR was so high monsters with it as well could be invulnerable if you don't have the right weapon, and Fighter could lose their primary weapon to unfortunate encounter with Rust Monster, lucky thieves, "shipwreck"-type scenario, and so on...
Thus, no wonder Monk's 3.0 fame filtered into 3.5 - rules changed faster than people recognized it



Only if you ignore alignment restrictions: Barbarians must be non-Lawful while Monks can only be Lawful.
Chaos Monk (Dragon #335): required CG, CN, or CE alignment



Milf's acid arrow
From the Dice, Resin & Gaming, Oh My! (https://vorchagirl.tumblr.com/post/174048078226/wizard-i-fire-milfs-acid-arrow-dm-i-dont-think):

Wizard: I fire MILF's Acid Arrow
DM: I don't think that's what it's called.
The rest of the party: *snickers* It is now ...
:smallbiggrin:



Oh, this. It's like if at least one of the writers of the main sources had this firm idea that members of playable races should never be immune to death by aging (or a major case of sour grapes against eternal youth on a non-deity)... Poor Monks, they have many of their source materials from Wuxia realized as relatively nerfed class features, with Timeless Body's cripple being the worst of all...
In the previous versions of the game, age was a big deal: not just many monsters aged you by their special attacks, but even some things which cost XP in 3.X are costed you lifetime in earlier editions...


Thread tax: Shatter (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) spell

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.
I mean: "regardless of composition"
Then, how about, say, resin?
Because resin is totally shatter from loud noises. It's what it is famed for.
And if you would ask: "What resin?" - Kaorti resin...

[noob]

How do you remember a word that tries not to be remembered?
It is words of power not any kind of subdued word.

[Batcathat]

Let's take two experts:
one have toolbox with ten (Fighter) to fifty (Monk) tools;
other one have toolbox with literal thousands of tools (and keeps getting more at every level up).
In what bizarro world they have a ghost of a chance to "contribute to a roughly equal degree"?
I mean - come on, it's not a rocket science...

Considering it's pretty clear that even the creators didn't realize how massively imbalanced they had made the game, it's hardly surprising if people picking up the game would not immediately realize that it's as balanced as a seesaw with a person on one end and a planetoid on the other.

Not to mention that my comment was in reply to you saying that people complaining about their characters being comparatively worthless shouldn't blame it on the system. Which seems odd, considering it's the system that's giving a massive toolbox to some classes and a broken screwdriver to others.

[danielxcutter]

Considering it's pretty clear that even the creators didn't realize how massively imbalanced they had made the game, it's hardly surprising if people picking up the game would not immediately realize that it's as balanced as a seesaw with a person on one end and a planetoid on the other.

Not to mention that my comment was in reply to you saying that people complaining about their characters being comparatively worthless shouldn't blame it on the system. Which seems odd, considering it's the system that's giving a massive toolbox to some classes and a broken screwdriver to others.

As I have mentioned before, I sometimes doubt that was entirely unintentional, though at the same time I doubt that was entirely intentional either.

[Nifft]

Let's take two experts:
one have toolbox with ten (Fighter) to fifty (Monk) tools;
other one have toolbox with literal thousands of tools (and keeps getting more at every level up).
In what bizarro world they have a ghost of a chance to "contribute to a roughly equal degree"?
I mean - come on, it's not a rocket science...


But the Fighter is proficient with almost every type of weapon and armor.

The Wizard is barely proficient with a handful of weapons and no armor.

(Lots of spells / no armor) vs. (Lots of armor / no spells).

They're equal but different, right?

[Khedrac]

But the Fighter is proficient with almost every type of weapon and armor.

The Wizard is barely proficient with a handful of weapons and no armor.

(Lots of spells / no armor) vs. (Lots of armor / no spells).

They're equal but different, right?

Oddly enough there's something in what you say. Back in the days of 1st Ed AD&D (and early 2nd Ed) the chances of getting the magical properties you needed on a specific type of weapon (other than a longsword) were pretty close to nil - you had to use whatever dropped, so the ability to pick up a random weapon and wield it effectively was very useful.
(Magic marts were a lot less common when there was no pricing structure for magic weapons and the rules for creating them were whatever a DM could dream up.)

Further, back in the AD&D days TSR hasn't noticed that products for DMs could only sell of a sub-set of their player base, while products for players could sell to all of them, so nearly all the products they produced were adventures with just a handful of rule expansion books. This meant that the list of spells for the Wizard to choose from did not dramatically expand every time a new book was published. What's more, when you did come across a new spell there was a chance you couldn't learn it, and there was a maximum number of spells that you could learn and put into your spellbook for each level (learn the wrong spell early and it might stop you learning the one you really wanted later on).
Result: the wizard's toolbox was a lot more limited than in 3rd Ed - it was still a far better toolbox, but the disparity was a lot smaller and didn't keep growing.

[GeoffWatson]

(Magic marts were a lot less common when there was no pricing structure for magic weapons and the rules for creating them were whatever a DM could dream up.)

Really? The DMG had prices for most magic items, and some players and DMs took that to mean you could buy whatever you want.

[Khedrac]

Really? The DMG had prices for most magic items, and some players and DMs took that to mean you could buy whatever you want.

Yes - and again no. There were prices for items but no pricing structure, so you couldn't simply come up with new versions of items or combine them according to formulae.
Knowing the price of a flametongue longsword did not mean you knew the price of a flametongue mace, so if you cannot wield the longsword without a -3 penalty for non-proficiency (don't recall the cleric value, wizards were -6) then your choices are take the penalty or hope the DM drops a custom item at some point.

[Gruftzwerg]

Then why you would even need a drowning-to-heal?
Just IHS the dying (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying) away!..


Because you need a standard action to use IHS.. One of the design problems of IHS. It was intended as combat condition breaker, but those where you really need it: "loss of all actions" it doesn't work. Thus you can't IHS the "dying" status. But you may disable the sun if you should ever get sunburn or even suntan.

DM: "You have birthday, you have become old enough for aging eff..."
PC: "IRON HEART SURGEEEEEEE!!"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

SURGEEEEEEE!!Pronounced "sir-gi."

[noob]

Pronounced "sir-gi."

This pronunciation is effecting me.
I will IHS it away.
After I IHS laziness away.
I will do that someday.

[RedMage125]

Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.

And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.


Alignments as written, if read literally, are definitely dumb.

I never got how this "doesn't make sense" to some people, unless you just didn't read the Core books.

3.5e PHB explicitly states that "Good and Evil are not different points of viw, they are the forces which shape the cosmos".

There are planes suffused with Good/Evil/Law/Chaos.
There are beings literally made of those energies.
These exact same energies can be present in mortal beings. PROOF: The Detect Evil spell detects a specific type of energy. It is the same energy (in different concentration/strength) in a Balor, a +2 Unholy Longsword, and a miserly, bitter old man (Neutral Evil level 1 Commoner).

So...if read literally, alignment is simply which of these energies/forces one is "aligned with". And one's actions (shaped by intent and context) are what determines the amount/concentration of these energies within oneself. That's literally in the PHB/DMG and BoVD/BoED.

Now, if you're going to make a house rule that objective energies of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos do not exist, then sure, alignment isn't going to be a valuable tool, or even make a lot of sense. But that's a deviation from the "default" assumptions of the RAW.

That's not to say deviating from default is bad. Far from it. D&D thrives on customization, and the only "wrong way to play" is when people are not having fun. BUt, just logically, if you deviate from that default assumptions, then mechanics built on those assumptions are not "faulty" or "nonsensical" on their own merits. It is your change which has made them less valuable.


The Monk's capstone ability seems to be written with the assumption that at level 20 you're only ever going to be fighting ordinary low-level monsters and people with non-magical weaponry.

Also, the alignment and multiclass restrictions on Monk are all kind of stupid.
Those restrictions are because of CLASS DESIGN being restrictive.

3.5e was very restrictive in terms of class design. They used very narrow definitions that adhered to very specific archetypes. People would often complain about "why can't I be a non-lawful monk". But they never once complained about features like Still Mind which stemmed from "the hours spent in meditation". The Monk class was only ever meant to be representative of the classic fantasy archetype of a wuxia monk who always meditated and sought "inner peace" and strove for a sort of "inner perfection".
Barbarians are another example. People who complained "why can't I be Lawful?" never seem to ask "why can't I be literate?". Barbarians were meant to ONLY represent savage, tribal people who shun "civilized" trappings, and their Rage was only viewed through the narrow lens of being a sort of "surrender" to savage impulses. I mean, I can come up with a Lawful, literate character concept best served by the Barbarian in terms of class features. Taking a note from L5R, a Hida Clan Dead Eyes Berserker. His "rage" is actually a completely calm state of heightened "battle awareness" that he achieves through hours of meditative focus and exercise. During this time he hits harder and can withstand more physical abuse (STR and CON increases), but at the expense of his ability to defend himself (AC penalty). This state is very taxing, and cannot be sustained long (limited duration and times per day). Such a character still abides by Bushido, and is a samurai of his clan. He would absolutely be Lawful, and absolutely be Literate.

Narrow Class Design is at fault for these restrictions. Yes, alignment was one of the sticks they used to enforce those narrow class designs. You want a Chaotic Monk or Lawful Barbarian (or Bard, I have a concept for a Lawful Bard, too)? Talk with your DM about exceptions. Monk might be better served with some alternate class features (I remember there was a Chaos Monk option in Dragon Magazine, but I do not remember if it was any good or not).

Funny that all the alignment detractors I’ve seen never complained about how restrictive the Cleric class is. That’s the most restrictive class in the PHB. A Cleric MUST be within “one step” alignment from his deity (if he has one). A Cleric may ONLY be True Neutral if his deity is. A Cleric of a deity with a race in their portfolio MUST be of that race (no human clerics of Moradin, for example). In order to take the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos domain, the cleric MUST have that alignment component themself. A Cleric has a powerful alignment aura of their deity’s alignment, not of their own (so a Lawful Neutral Cleric of Hextor radiates a powerful Evil aura, but a LE cleric of Wee Jas only has an Evil aura similar to a regular humanoid of his HD). A cleric may not cast spells with an alignment subtype that opposes their own or their deity’s alignment (LG cleric of Wee Jas cannot cast [Evil] spells, LE cleric of Wee Jas may not cast [Good] spells, but a LN cleric of the same deity can cast both).

[Ottriman]

One of the silliest things of 3e, 3,5 and PF is the monsters basic chassis (BAB, HD, saves, skills, proficiency) being determined by monster type.

Pacifist angel? Good BAB and proficient in a bunch of weapons just because you're an outsider!
War fey? Sorry, your BAB is only half and your HD is just bad in general because Fey.

Should have been based on monster role, not type.

[PraxisVetli]

One of the silliest things of 3e, 3,5 and PF is the monsters basic chassis (BAB, HD, saves, skills, proficiency) being determined by monster type.

Pacifist angel? Good BAB and proficient in a bunch of weapons just because you're an outsider!
War fey? Sorry, your BAB is only half and your HD is just bad in general because Fey.

Should have been based on monster role, not type.

Honestly, Fey should've been an Outsider subtype.
I also think Vermin should've been a subtype too, but eh. That's up there with Giants and Monstrous Humanoids being different things entirely.
WHY?

Edit: wrong 'there' because I never sleep

[hamishspence]

Giant being a subtype of Monstrous Humanoid, works better than Monstrous Humanoid being a subtype of Giant, because many Monstrous Humanoids are not big.

[noob]

I never got how this "doesn't make sense" to some people, unless you just didn't read the Core books.

3.5e PHB explicitly states that "Good and Evil are not different points of viw, they are the forces which shape the cosmos".

There are planes suffused with Good/Evil/Law/Chaos.
There are beings literally made of those energies.
These exact same energies can be present in mortal beings. PROOF: The Detect Evil spell detects a specific type of energy. It is the same energy (in different concentration/strength) in a Balor, a +2 Unholy Longsword, and a miserly, bitter old man (Neutral Evil level 1 Commoner).

So...if read literally, alignment is simply which of these energies/forces one is "aligned with". And one's actions (shaped by intent and context) are what determines the amount/concentration of these energies within oneself. That's literally in the PHB/DMG and BoVD/BoED.

Now, if you're going to make a house rule that objective energies of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos do not exist, then sure, alignment isn't going to be a valuable tool, or even make a lot of sense. But that's a deviation from the "default" assumptions of the RAW.

That's not to say deviating from default is bad. Far from it. D&D thrives on customization, and the only "wrong way to play" is when people are not having fun. BUt, just logically, if you deviate from that default assumptions, then mechanics built on those assumptions are not "faulty" or "nonsensical" on their own merits. It is your change which has made them less valuable.


Those restrictions are because of CLASS DESIGN being restrictive.

3.5e was very restrictive in terms of class design. They used very narrow definitions that adhered to very specific archetypes. People would often complain about "why can't I be a non-lawful monk". But they never once complained about features like Still Mind which stemmed from "the hours spent in meditation". The Monk class was only ever meant to be representative of the classic fantasy archetype of a wuxia monk who always meditated and sought "inner peace" and strove for a sort of "inner perfection".
Barbarians are another example. People who complained "why can't I be Lawful?" never seem to ask "why can't I be literate?". Barbarians were meant to ONLY represent savage, tribal people who shun "civilized" trappings, and their Rage was only viewed through the narrow lens of being a sort of "surrender" to savage impulses. I mean, I can come up with a Lawful, literate character concept best served by the Barbarian in terms of class features. Taking a note from L5R, a Hida Clan Dead Eyes Berserker. His "rage" is actually a completely calm state of heightened "battle awareness" that he achieves through hours of meditative focus and exercise. During this time he hits harder and can withstand more physical abuse (STR and CON increases), but at the expense of his ability to defend himself (AC penalty). This state is very taxing, and cannot be sustained long (limited duration and times per day). Such a character still abides by Bushido, and is a samurai of his clan. He would absolutely be Lawful, and absolutely be Literate.

Narrow Class Design is at fault for these restrictions. Yes, alignment was one of the sticks they used to enforce those narrow class designs. You want a Chaotic Monk or Lawful Barbarian (or Bard, I have a concept for a Lawful Bard, too)? Talk with your DM about exceptions. Monk might be better served with some alternate class features (I remember there was a Chaos Monk option in Dragon Magazine, but I do not remember if it was any good or not).

Funny that all the alignment detractors I’ve seen never complained about how restrictive the Cleric class is. That’s the most restrictive class in the PHB. A Cleric MUST be within “one step” alignment from his deity (if he has one). A Cleric may ONLY be True Neutral if his deity is. A Cleric of a deity with a race in their portfolio MUST be of that race (no human clerics of Moradin, for example). In order to take the Good/Evil/Law/Chaos domain, the cleric MUST have that alignment component themself. A Cleric has a powerful alignment aura of their deity’s alignment, not of their own (so a Lawful Neutral Cleric of Hextor radiates a powerful Evil aura, but a LE cleric of Wee Jas only has an Evil aura similar to a regular humanoid of his HD). A cleric may not cast spells with an alignment subtype that opposes their own or their deity’s alignment (LG cleric of Wee Jas cannot cast [Evil] spells, LE cleric of Wee Jas may not cast [Good] spells, but a LN cleric of the same deity can cast both).

You can be a literate barbarian just spend 2 skill points for that.
You can also be a lawful barbarian: just take the ordered chaos feat.

[Ottriman]

Honestly, Fey should've been an Outsider subtype.
I also think Vermin should've been a subtype too, but eh. That's up their with Giants and Monstrous Humanoids being different things entirely.
WHY?


Giant being a subtype of Monstrous Humanoid, works better than Monstrous Humanoid being a subtype of Giant, because many Monstrous Humanoids are not big.

In general at this point I think 4e did it best. Monsters statted based on role and with special tags to note their origin or type, without huge and silly type variance like Giant, Humanoid and Monstrous humanoid all being separate types.

[Wildstag]

That's up their with Giants and Monstrous Humanoids being different things entirely. WHY?

Well included in Monstrous Humanoids is Tibbits, Centaurs, Goliaths (which are most assuredly NOT giants or giant-kin), and a lot of other weird ones. It's basically just the "they're not explicitly humanoid but don't fit other creature types" option. They're way to diverse to lump them in with Giants.

Really, Giants should just be humanoids, which PF ended up doing.

[hamishspence]

Really, Giants should just be humanoids, which PF ended up doing.

4E too - in 4e all Giants are Humanoids with the Giant subtype.

[Rater202]

Giant should be a subtype that's applied to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, with a note that there are "True" giants like Hill, Frost, Fire, and Storm and "Giantkin" who are hybrids, mutations, an evolutionary cousin, or cases of convergent evolution making an unrelated species "close enough" to count as giant for the sake of things that target the unique traits of giants--these would be your trolls, your ogres, your ogre-mage/oni and so on as well as half-giants. Any class or template that applies the giant subtype that isn't "you're now an X giant."

[PraxisVetli]

Giant should be a subtype that's applied to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, with a note that there are "True" giants like Hill, Frost, Fire, and Storm and "Giantkin" who are hybrids, mutations, an evolutionary cousin, or cases of convergent evolution making an unrelated species "close enough" to count as giant for the sake of things that target the unique traits of giants--these would be your trolls, your ogres, your ogre-mage/oni and so on as well as half-giants. Any class or template that applies the giant subtype that isn't "you're now an X giant."

I could see Dragon getting the same treatment with wyverns and drakes. Yes, True Dragons are different, but the lessers still benefit from most of the benefits. Not sure what changes should be made since I'm AFB, but it'd make a good rainy day project.
I also disagree with non-magical magical beasts not being Animals, like the Owlbear. Nothing about the owlbear is magical. Or Giant Owls. They aren't real creatures, but they aren't magical either.
I see the argument for Giant Eagles, they have the Int score to be separate, but if Dire Bears are Animals, Giant Owls should be too.

[Metastachydium]

I could see Dragon getting the same treatment with wyverns and drakes. Yes, True Dragons are different, but the lessers still benefit from most of the benefits. Not sure what changes should be made since I'm AFB, but it'd make a good rainy day project.
I also disagree with non-magical magical beasts not being Animals, like the Owlbear. Nothing about the owlbear is magical. Or Giant Owls. They aren't real creatures, but they aren't magical either.
I see the argument for Giant Eagles, they have the Int score to be separate, but if Dire Bears are Animals, Giant Owls should be too.

Giant owls have an INT score of 10, same as giant eagles, though.

[PraxisVetli]

Giant owls have an INT score of 10, same as giant eagles, though.

You are correct, dunno what I was thinking.
Counter point, Sea Cat is Int 2 and no magical traits.

[Metastachydium]

You are correct, dunno what I was thinking.
Counter point, Sea Cat is Int 2 and no magical traits.

I suppose magical beast is supposed to cover creatures that don't make much sense unless a wizard did it (through magic!). That being said, „non-magical magical beast” is a weird concept indeed.

[Malphegor]

1 pound of wheat (worth 1 cp) can be crafted into 1.5 ponds of flour (worth 3 cp).

I can’t find that, where’s that madness from?

To contribute to the thread I will posit that by all the rules of logic and sense, a phaerimm half-dragon is not a true dragon in any way. The Phaerimm Half Dragon however doesn’t care for logic and sense and points vaguely at the Draconomicon and then proceeds to take a sovereign archetype (loredrake) anyway.

[danielxcutter]

I could see Dragon getting the same treatment with wyverns and drakes. Yes, True Dragons are different, but the lessers still benefit from most of the benefits. Not sure what changes should be made since I'm AFB, but it'd make a good rainy day project.
I also disagree with non-magical magical beasts not being Animals, like the Owlbear. Nothing about the owlbear is magical. Or Giant Owls. They aren't real creatures, but they aren't magical either.
I see the argument for Giant Eagles, they have the Int score to be separate, but if Dire Bears are Animals, Giant Owls should be too.

True dragons really are a bit different from just having the dragon type though.


I can’t find that, where’s that madness from?

To contribute to the thread I will posit that by all the rules of logic and sense, a phaerimm half-dragon is not a true dragon in any way. The Phaerimm Half Dragon however doesn’t care for logic and sense and points vaguely at the Draconomicon and then proceeds to take a sovereign archetype (loredrake) anyway.

Uh... what? Where's that from?

[InvisibleBison]

I can’t find that, where’s that madness from?

The crafting rules say that making something requires raw materials worth 1/3 the price of the finished product. The raw material for crafting wheat is wheat, and the commodity price rules say that 1 pound of wheat is worth 1 cp, so it can be crafted into 3 cp of flour, which since flour costs 2 cp per pound would weigh 1.5 cp.

[Rater202]

I could see Dragon getting the same treatment with wyverns and drakes. Yes, True Dragons are different, but the lessers still benefit from most of the benefits. Not sure what changes should be made since I'm AFB, but it'd make a good rainy day project.
I also disagree with non-magical magical beasts not being Animals, like the Owlbear. Nothing about the owlbear is magical. Or Giant Owls. They aren't real creatures, but they aren't magical either.
I see the argument for Giant Eagles, they have the Int score to be separate, but if Dire Bears are Animals, Giant Owls should be too.

Yeah, honestly the difference between True Dragons and other creatures with the Dragon-Type(and the Dragon-Blooded Subtype) inspired how I build it.

[hamishspence]

Uh... what? Where's that from?

The Phaerimm as a creature with age categories, that grows more powerful as it grows older, is in Lost Empires of Faerun. The Half dragon template gives it the dragon type. And the definition of "True Dragon" as "creature with the dragon type and age categories, growing more powerful as it grows older" is extrapolated from Draconomicon, page 4:


"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older"

"Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less powerful than true dragons.)"



There's no way to convincingly argue that a phaerimm does not "advance through age categories" - nor to argue that a half-dragon phaerimm does not have the dragon type.

[Ravens_cry]

Depending on how you rule what losing the prerequisites for a prestige class does, Dragon Disciple's capstone is a case of Schrodinger's Half-Dragon.

[Feldar]

Maybe elves sleep for the last ~80 years of adolescence.

Teens need more sleep, you know.

Half-elves have to come from somewhere.

[Telonius]

Material components were mentioned a little bit earlier. I'd say they're up there for "silliest material." Material components are a joke - literally. They're all puns and awful "dad jokes." Fireball: bat guano and sulfur (-> gunpowder). Message: a short piece of copper wire (->telegraph line). Hideous Laughter: throw tarts at the target and wave a feather (->pie to the face and tickle them).

[danielxcutter]

Material components were mentioned a little bit earlier. I'd say they're up there for "silliest material." Material components are a joke - literally. They're all puns and awful "dad jokes." Fireball: bat guano and sulfur (-> gunpowder). Message: a short piece of copper wire (->telegraph line). Hideous Laughter: throw tarts at the target and wave a feather (->pie to the face and tickle them).

...Oh god you're right.

[Ottriman]

Another thing that just came to mind.

The way skill points at first level work in conjunction with multiclassing. They add a x4 multiplier to level 1, which is normally fine but has this weird interaction with multiclassing.

If you want to multiclass, you want to take the highest skill point per level one at first level (yes, this matters). So if you take a Fighter at level 1 and then rogue at level 2 your class levels will have given 16 skill points (2x4 for fighter 1 then +8 for rogue), buuuut if you take rogue at first levle and fighter at second level you get 34 skill points (8x4 at level 1 +2 at level 2).....

These characters could otherwise be identical, but one has significantly more skills for..... reasons.

I think PF1e did the right thing by changing the x4 at first level to a +3 bonus for the first skill point invested in a skill. Axes the possibility of this nonsense.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think PF1e did the right thing by changing the x4 at first level to a +3 bonus for the first skill point invested in a skill. Axes the possibility of this nonsense.It also kills any possibility of having a decent number of skill points in a build, and reduces even a fighter's skill points to ridiculous lows, by comparison.

[danielxcutter]

How does that work? So you get an automatic +3 to a skill by putting a point into it?

[Ottriman]

How does that work? So you get an automatic +3 to a skill by putting a point into it?

Yeah you get a +3 bonus at a skill when you put your first point in. This replaces the x4 skill points at level 1, effectively it's the same thing as always maxing a skill when you're making a first level character.

I like this change because of it stopping the order of multiclassing from changing your skill points total.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah you get a +3 bonus at a skill when you put your first point in. This replaces the x4 skill points at level 1, effectively it's the same thing as always maxing a skill when you're making a first level character.

I like this change because of it stopping the order of multiclassing from changing your skill points total.And I don't like this change because I tend to put 1 skill point into a lot of skills I have high ability mods for. It really kills any hope of being able to have a broad array of trained-only skills, like Knowledge. Why can't I be a well-read person instead of one who focused really heavily on a couple of skills? It's a stupidly heavy nerf to rogues and any character that invests in Int.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, PF has Int boosts give more skill points. I still like dropping a point or two into skills that I think might be useful or fit my character though.

[Rater202]

Honestly, skills in this game don't really make much sense: I've never actually seen "downtime" as a thing in these games except between major stories so in practice you're leaving up and gaining skills regardless of if you've used that kill recently.

[stack]

It also kills any possibility of having a decent number of skill points in a build, and reduces even a fighter's skill points to ridiculous lows, by comparison.

+3 only applies to class skills, but if traits are in use it is usually trivial to get a given skill as a class skill.

The background skills optional rule also helps with filling in skills that are nice for fluff but have little mechanical impact.

[Ottriman]

And I don't like this change because I tend to put 1 skill point into a lot of skills I have high ability mods for. It really kills any hope of being able to have a broad array of trained-only skills, like Knowledge. Why can't I be a well-read person instead of one who focused really heavily on a couple of skills? It's a stupidly heavy nerf to rogues and any character that invests in Int.

To each our own, I just make "trained only" not a thing and make all skills usable by default. Trained only has always been really stupid to me.

[Rater202]

This goes for all editions, really, but a Warlock is under no obligation to honor any deals or pacts they might have made to get their magical powers.

[danielxcutter]

This goes for all editions, really, but a Warlock is under no obligation to honor any deals or pacts they might have made to get their magical powers.

I'm pretty sure that was quite intentional. I mean, "get power from a pact and then run off with just the power" is quite the cliche.

[Nifft]

Material components were mentioned a little bit earlier. I'd say they're up there for "silliest material." Material components are a joke - literally. They're all puns and awful "dad jokes." Fireball: bat guano and sulfur (-> gunpowder). Message: a short piece of copper wire (->telegraph line). Hideous Laughter: throw tarts at the target and wave a feather (->pie to the face and tickle them).

My favorite in that vein is the copper coin expended to cast detect thoughts.

Literally a penny for your thoughts.

[danielxcutter]

My favorite in that vein is the copper coin expended to cast detect thoughts.

Literally a penny for your thoughts.

*frustrated screams*

[Azuresun]

Arguably worth it for Warmage considering that their 9ths are somewhat underwhelming and vanishingly few in number. Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of the Banshee, and Weird - not useless, but I think any 8th-level or lower Cleric spell at the drop of a hat is better. For the record, the capstone for Warmage is Sudden Maximize.

The Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Wu Jen, etc, made a lot more sense when I thought of them as replacements for the base arcane casters (less powerful, more thematic, less bland), in much the same way that the Warblade makes a far better fighter+. One thing I always kind of wanted to try in 3e was a "no core classes" campaign.


I'm pretty sure that was quite intentional. I mean, "get power from a pact and then run off with just the power" is quite the cliche.

That, and I'm fairly sure that after 2.5 billion cases of "my Paladin lost his powers for not petting a kitten" threads, they didn't want to open that can of worms again.

[Efrate]

I am running a pathfinder game that bans classes for core, in fact everyone needs to be a veil (pf incarnum, 3rd party) or path of war (pf ToB, same 3rd party as veils). It is working surprisingly well, better than core classes, as long as I do not through too many only magic can fix it stuff around. Those classes have a much higher floor and my players are new, but it works well. Magic users are more or less absent from the setting, and if you need a spell better go find an outsider. Feels a LOT better for worldbuilding than person X casts a spell and fixes it always.

[danielxcutter]

The problem with "low magic" though is that the game literally assumes that you have gear to make up the difference. Although for PF specifically I hear there's a way of getting scaling bonuses with levels? I think that variant rule set was called something like bounded accuracy?

[Jazath]

Hey folks!

I'm curious what y'all consider to be the most silly, baffling, or bizarre aspects of D&D 3.5e.

These can be in-text things (such as the Acidborn template or the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu feat) or meta-textual things (such as the fact that the best "samurai" are Factotums wielding Gnomish Quickrazors). Essentially: anything goes, as long as its ridiculous.

As a side note—these don't have to be disfunctional things, per se. Busted or illogical rules are definitely silly, but nedz's Completely Disfunctional Handbook already does a great job of cataloguing that sort of stuff.

I'm looking forward to hearing what y'all think!

I remember the 3.5e epic handbook. The heal seed? Completely overpowered in my opinion, all you have to do is grab multispell, the epic seed heal with a quickened round and personal effect, and your unstoppable. Healing all aspects in a single round while dealing massive damage.

[danielxcutter]

I remember the 3.5e epic handbook. The heal seed? Completely overpowered in my opinion, all you have to do is grab multispell, the epic seed heal with a quickened round and personal effect, and your unstoppable. Healing all aspects in a single round while dealing massive damage.

I'm pretty sure you literally cannot use metamagic-related abilities with epic spells and you also have to be a divine caster to use it. Plus quickening it ups the DC a lot and the cost as well, not to mention that it's explicitly RAW that your DM can veto too ridiculous combinations.

[Jazath]

I'm pretty sure you literally cannot use metamagic-related abilities with epic spells and you also have to be a divine caster to use it. Plus quickening it ups the DC a lot and the cost as well, not to mention that it's explicitly RAW that your DM can veto too ridiculous combinations.

Our DM never vetoed it.
In all the times i played d&d our dm allowed us to use metamagic and augment our epic spells when desired.
I was unaware this was the case, though the heal seed is still overpowered either way.

[danielxcutter]

Our DM never vetoed it.
In all the times i played d&d our dm allowed us to use metamagic and augment our epic spells when desired.
I was unaware this was the case, though the heal seed is still overpowered either way.

You are explicitly forbidden to use metamagic with epic spells, the cost and research time are significant factors, and unless you were in like the quadruple digit levels I doubt you'd be able to cast that uberheal more than three times a day or so.

[Jazath]

You are explicitly forbidden to use metamagic with epic spells, the cost and research time are significant factors, and unless you were in like the quadruple digit levels I doubt you'd be able to cast that uberheal more than three times a day or so.

Not quadruple, triple digits. However, that being said, Their are all types of variables to take into consideration. The legendary ability scores, the Enscrolled ability, my Great Ability Score feats, all types of goodies.
Limitless spells per day. And the most important thing is: I am having lots of fun. SO, I don't really care about what's 'Forebidden' because he allows us, so....yeah!

[JNAProductions]

Not quadruple, triple digits. However, that being said, Their are all types of variables to take into consideration. The legendary ability scores, the Enscrolled ability, my Great Ability Score feats, all types of goodies.
Limitless spells per day. And the most important thing is: I am having lots of fun. SO, I don't really care about what's 'Forebidden' because he allows us, so....yeah!

And that's good, provided everyone else at the table is having fun too...

But that doesn't make it "Silly 3.5 Material," that makes it "Silly houserules for 3.5."

[Particle_Man]

Well if we include stuff that applies across editions there is a demon whose name sounds like “You know who” explicitly so that people trying to talk about other demons without accidentally summoning them through mentioning their names will instead accidentally summon this demon through saying things like “We better be careful not to attract the attention of you know who!”.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/yeenoghu-demon-prince-gnolls

There is also the gelatinous cube, the only monster I know of that evolved to conveniently fit dungeons mappable in graph paper.

[Efrate]

The problem with "low magic" though is that the game literally assumes that you have gear to make up the difference. Although for PF specifically I hear there's a way of getting scaling bonuses with levels? I think that variant rule set was called something like bounded accuracy?

Anyone can craft in PF with a feat, at least for arms and armor and wonderous which covers a LOT. Viziers, veilweaver class from DSP, have a specific crafting path that gives them pretty much all crafting feats. Viziers also can explicitly use any charged item by just investing 1 essense at the start of the day, so all staves and wands that are found are usable easily.

Preqeqs or lack thereof just increases DC by 5 per. And since pf crafting is 1k gp a day and explicitly doably while adventuring with no associated XP costs it is vasty superior to 3.5 crafting from a PC standpoint.

Automatic bonus progression is nice, that the option you mentioned, but I like my players to be able make what they want. Especiallu because one player has a bad habit of unintentionally rolling so bad that he makes cursed items and its funny.

On topic: Leveling order. It so niche and weird in usage, and at any table I have been in not really followed, but it can lead to weird states where you cannot qualify for things until 1 to 3 levels later because you could not qualify in time.

Also the lack of any reason to NOT prestige ASAP for pretty much every class since so many PRCs are all of class X stuff plus more.

Also, PRCs which are not full progression have no reason to exist if you have full progression classes that are full upgrades. Those two should not exist side by side. Mostly applies to caster PRCs, big surprise they are better, but examples accross all.

[Zombulian]

Not quadruple, triple digits. However, that being said, Their are all types of variables to take into consideration. The legendary ability scores, the Enscrolled ability, my Great Ability Score feats, all types of goodies.
Limitless spells per day. And the most important thing is: I am having lots of fun. SO, I don't really care about what's 'Forebidden' because he allows us, so....yeah!

Oh man if this thread is just about anything silly now even if it's not rules legal then we should all take a look at the Lightning Warrior. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)

[ShurikVch]

This goes for all editions, really, but a Warlock is under no obligation to honor any deals or pacts they might have made to get their magical powers.
:smallconfused: What "deal"? Warlocks are born that way:

Background: Warlocks are born, not made. Some are the descendants of people who trafficked with demons and devils long ago.

[Jazath]

Oh man if this thread is just about anything silly now even if it's not rules legal then we should all take a look at the Lightning Warrior. (https://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)

"The Lightning Warrior needs an 18 in every ability to survive without a familiar." XD sounds like a steal!
All good ability scores? Well....

[Telonius]

:smallconfused: What "deal"? Warlocks are born that way:

Also Complete Arcane:


Long ago, they (or in some cases, their ancestors) forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading portions of their souls in exchange for supernatural power. While many warlocks have turned away from evil, seeking to undo the wrongs of their former colleagues, they are still chained by the old pacts through which they acquired their powers. The demand to further the designs of their dark patrons, or to resist them, drives most warlocks to seek the opportunities for power, wealth, and great deeds (for good or ill) offered by adventuring.

The exact origin of the warlock is specifically left up to the player to decide.

[ShurikVch]

Also Complete Arcane:



The exact origin of the warlock is specifically left up to the player to decide.
My point there was: since there are absolutely no necessity for the very existence of "deals or pacts" - it's pretty weird to point you can ignore them

Just one canonical example: "The Amarantha Agenda" adventure (Dungeon #123). Amarantha in question is a dryad who was unwillingly bound to Ironmaw which forced on her Half-Fiend template and Warlock class. To the end of the adventure, Amarantha successfully got rid of Ironmaw and Half-Fiend template - but not of Warlock class. How it's possible, if the very source of her abilities is gone now?

[Jazath]

My point there was: since there are absolutely no necessity for the very existence of "deals or pacts" - it's pretty weird to point you can ignore them

Just one canonical example: "The Amarantha Agenda" adventure (Dungeon #123). Amarantha in question is a dryad who was unwillingly bound to Ironmaw which forced on her Half-Fiend template and Warlock class. To the end of the adventure, Amarantha successfully got rid of Ironmaw and Half-Fiend template - but not of Warlock class. How it's possible, if the very source of her abilities is gone now?

Isn't called "Experience points" Because you have experience as you level up? If she is separated from the pact she won't have her special abilities like normal. But the class levels she earned will still be there, due to her, key word, experience at being a warlock. What she gained like feats and skills proves she would keep the levels
So, does a archer that lost his limbs still retain the archer class? Yes, because he had the knowledge and experience. I think it's the same deal.

[Nifft]

How it's possible, if the very source of her abilities is gone now?

To un-Warlock her, the PCs need to find the Warkey.

[Zombulian]

To un-Warlock her, the PCs need to find the Warkey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-N_3Tawvmc

[Rater202]

it always felt weird to me that wands and staves couldn't be recharged.

I'm not saying making them disposable is inherently a waste, but they're roughly equivalent to guns that can't be reloaded.

[Gruftzwerg]

My point there was: since there are absolutely no necessity for the very existence of "deals or pacts" - it's pretty weird to point you can ignore them

Just one canonical example: "The Amarantha Agenda" adventure (Dungeon #123). Amarantha in question is a dryad who was unwillingly bound to Ironmaw which forced on her Half-Fiend template and Warlock class. To the end of the adventure, Amarantha successfully got rid of Ironmaw and Half-Fiend template - but not of Warlock class. How it's possible, if the very source of her abilities is gone now?
I think it works on a enabling/learning basis. Once you unlocked the warlock powers you have access to em no matter what. Compare it with Sorcerer & Wizards. A Sorcerer is a natural talent who discovers himself how to use magic. The wizards goes to school to let other educate him. The warlock is to lazy to go to school and not a natural talent either. This is why he invites an evil entity as house teacher.


it always felt weird to me that wands and staves couldn't be recharged.

I'm not saying making them disposable is inherently a waste, but they're roughly equivalent to guns that can't be reloaded.
Don't we have rules to refill charges? Or was that just a specific prc ability? Dunno Imho there was something like that in 3.5 or pf..

[Efrate]

PF has stave recharge. 1 charge able to be recharged a day, gotta put a slot/spell equal to the highest level spell it can cast.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

it always felt weird to me that wands and staves couldn't be recharged.

I'm not saying making them disposable is inherently a waste, but they're roughly equivalent to guns that can't be reloaded.Just plug them into the wall. It's like sticking a fork in the wall socket, only a little less zappy. Or more zappy, depending on the spell.

[Particle_Man]

it always felt weird to me that wands and staves couldn't be recharged.

I'm not saying making them disposable is inherently a waste, but they're roughly equivalent to guns that can't be reloaded.

I think you can use the old stick that ran out of charges completely and given the right feat craft it as a magic wand or staff again. Maybe it is like those “rechargeable” electronic batteries or devices that you are meant to let completely run out of power before you recharge them?

[Ottriman]

Can I nominate Book of Vile Darkness?

That whole book says it's about evil campaigns and/or how to run villains. Yet it's more like a mix of edge and squick that would only seem mature to a 13 year old and has bafflingly bad advice on the actual bit about running villains / evil PCs.

[danielxcutter]

Can I nominate Book of Vile Darkness?

That whole book says it's about evil campaigns and/or how to run villains. Yet it's more like a mix of edge and squick that would only seem mature to a 13 year old and has bafflingly bad advice on the actual bit about running villains / evil PCs.

There's a bit of decent material in there and some of the parts talking about Evil itself are actually pretty nice, but yeah. Exemplars of Evil is probably a better choice for that.

[danielxcutter]

Also stupid thing: you have to be a caster to make things with Craft(alchemy). Yes, even nonmagical acid.

[Ottriman]

Also stupid thing: you have to be a caster to make things with Craft(alchemy). Yes, even nonmagical acid.

Ahh yes that rule I had automatically retconned away the instant I saw it because of how nonsensical it was. It just bounced off my GM brain and I never even remember it except in discussions like these.

[danielxcutter]

Ahh yes that rule I had automatically retconned away the instant I saw it because of how nonsensical it was. It just bounced off my GM brain and I never even remember it except in discussions like these.

I know right? I mean, Craft(poisonmaking) isn't any different and some of those alchemical items aren't much more complicated than that.

[Efrate]

Obligatory mention of Sanctify the Wicked from BoED.

[noob]

Obligatory mention of Sanctify the Wicked from BoED.

The idea that anyone isolated in a gem for a year can automagically find they should be good instead of just hating the caster.
Or that mind control + unnecessary suffering is good(it is either of the interpretation but both are horrible) is plain silly.

[Nifft]

The idea that anyone isolated in a gem for a year can automagically find they should be good instead of just hating the caster.
Isn't it more the opposite, like the dark romance trope that isolation would make you LOVE your jailer?

[Rater202]

"Mind rape" and "program amnesia" have more or less the same effect, but only one of them has the evil descriptor.

[hamishspence]

The idea that anyone isolated in a gem for a year can automagically find they should be good instead of just hating the caster.
Or that mind control + unnecessary suffering is good(it is either of the interpretation but both are horrible) is plain silly.The whole point of "poison is evil" (but ravages aren't) is that poison causes undue suffering.

Presumably, any suffering the soul in the gem experiences, is considered due suffering.

[Nifft]

The whole point of "poison is evil" (but ravages aren't) is that poison causes undue suffering.

Presumably, any suffering the soul in the gem experiences, is considered due suffering.

Drow Sleeping Poison causes undue napping. I guess it's [Evil] napping.

Ravages were really a missed opportunity -- there are plenty of other non-suffering things you could do to impair combat capabilities, and spells which served that function such as calm emotions, hideous laughter, and irresistible dance were already in the game. Really just a failure of imagination to use ability damage.

[hamishspence]

Drow Sleeping Poison causes undue napping.
And it's specifically called out as not evil by BoED.

[Nifft]

And it's specifically called out as not evil by BoED.

Oh, nice. That's one point in favor of BoVD saying non-stupid things.

[hamishspence]

Oh, nice. That's one point in favor of BoVD saying non-stupid things.

There's plenty of non-stupid things in BoED (and in BoVD as well) - unfortunately, the stupid things tend to get the most focus on by the fandom.

And of course different fans will have very different opinions. For some, "torture is always evil" is stupid. For others, it's not.

[goodpeople25]

"Mind rape" and "program amnesia" have more or less the same effect, but only one of them has the evil descriptor.
Well one spell has the chilling implication of a 10 minute casting time, so if you use it on an unwilling target they are most likely bound in some way or unconscious.

The other spell is mindrape.

[H_H_F_F]

There's plenty of non-stupid things in BoED (and in BoVD as well) - unfortunately, the stupid things tend to get the most focus on by the fandom.

And of course different fans will have very different opinions. For some, "torture is always evil" is stupid. For others, it's not.

I think barely anyone will say that view is stupid. Many will, however, say it's wrong.

Which gets us back to "alignment is dumb", which, yeah. "You wanna play an LG paladin? Oopsie, you just poisoned a mass murderer, so no more good alignment for you. Your NG barbarian body who just tore an animal in half and is currently bathing in her blood is fine though."

[Nifft]

Well one spell has the chilling implication of a 10 minute casting time, so if you use it on an unwilling target they are most likely bound in some way or unconscious.

The other spell is mindrape.

Programming takes time and effort?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think barely anyone will say that view is stupid. Many will, however, say it's wrong.

Which gets us back to "alignment is dumb", which, yeah. "You wanna play an LG paladin? Oopsie, you just poisoned a mass murderer, so no more good alignment for you. Your NG barbarian body who just tore an animal in half and is currently bathing in her blood is fine though."

BoED and BoVD had to deal with topics that have eluded thinkers for many millenia and them staple them into the framework of being objectively true in the world. I admire them doing as well as they did with an insane task, but alignment is ultimately highly problematic at best (heck, half the time things have certain alignments for convenience, no matter how little sense it makes).

As for something silly: let me hop on the "multiclass penalty" train. Its purpose was silly; its execution bad. Even the most RAW stringent DMs I knew would just drop it.

[H_H_F_F]

BoED and BoVD had to deal with topics that have eluded thinkers for many millenia and them staple them into the framework of being objectively true in the world. I admire them doing as well as they did with an insane task, but alignment is ultimately highly problematic at best (heck, half the time things have certain alignments for convenience, no matter how little sense it makes).

As for something silly: let me hop on the "multiclass penalty" train. Its purpose was silly; its execution bad. Even the most RAW stringent DMs I knew would just drop it.

Oh yeah, I don't blame the creators of BoVD and BoED for the cluster**** that is alignment. As I was saying, discussing specific bad decisions made by them pretty much brings us back to "alignment is dumb."

[Efrate]

Thing item in BoED that gives ref dc 15 for half damage on attacks and evasion applies. Starmantle cloak? Take one ToB maneuver so you do not fail on 1s and get plus 14 reflex, and you are mostly immune to damage.

[Harrow]

There are a couple prestige classes that get a full attack after any Teleportation effect. One of the best spells for this, because it's level 1 and an immediate action, is called Stand. But, you have to be prone for it to work. This leads to a scenario in which the best tactical option for a character is to walk up next to an opponent, drop to the floor, then click their heals (or whatever casters do for somatic components while prone, but that's a post in and of itself) then next thing you know, they're stabbing someone a whole bunch.

[danielxcutter]

There are a couple prestige classes that get a full attack after any Teleportation effect. One of the best spells for this, because it's level 1 and an immediate action, is called Stand. But, you have to be prone for it to work. This leads to a scenario in which the best tactical option for a character is to walk up next to an opponent, drop to the floor, then click their heals (or whatever casters do for somatic components while prone, but that's a post in and of itself) then next thing you know, they're stabbing someone a whole bunch.

Ah, shadowpouncing. That’s a fun one.

[Luccan]

Feats have already been brought up in a general sense, but I'd like to bring special attention to Power Attack. Being able to put a little more "oomph" in an attack, but sacrificing control in doing so makes sense and doesn't seem silly at all to me. But, being a feat, a special technique that you need to dedicate training to in order to pull off, that's just wacky in my book.

While that's one of the biggest offenders to me, so many of the Fighter feats in the Player's Handbook just feel like they took something every fighter should be able to do, like fire an arrow into melee or bull rush someone, then gated them behind feats. It just all feels like padding. And there still aren't enough feats in core for a 20th level Fighter to have anything to be excited over picking for his "capstone".

Haven't finished the thread, so sorry of this has been said, but some feats are things Fighters could just do in previous editions. They were made into Feats presumably because that would allow any warrior type to take them, but it probably would've been better off tied to BAB (which I think Grod did). Personally, I don't think they thought Fighter out in 3e. It's like someone thought "if we're gonna make all the fighter subclasses separate classes, then they need to be able to acquire the fighter abilities somehow" and then they realized that means fighters don't have class abilities and so they just slapped a bunch of bonus feat on them and called it a day.

[danielxcutter]

They also really should have added things like Weapon Supremacy earlier honestly if they really wanted you to invest in the Weapon Focus tree.

Oh actually feat trees in general; because after a few levels you’ve finished the tree and have to go to another. Which is part of the reason I presume core-only Fighter is underwhelming.

[Luccan]

I can't help but chuckle evilly reading responses from the people who just realized material components are all puns and reference gags.


Well if we include stuff that applies across editions there is a demon whose name sounds like “You know who” explicitly so that people trying to talk about other demons without accidentally summoning them through mentioning their names will instead accidentally summon this demon through saying things like “We better be careful not to attract the attention of you know who!”.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/yeenoghu-demon-prince-gnolls

There is also the gelatinous cube, the only monster I know of that evolved to conveniently fit dungeons mappable in graph paper.

Oh, that's how it's pronounced? For some reason my brain has always read it yee-NOG-oo and I don't think I ever bothered to ask a gnoll about its religious preferences. TBH, though, lore for true names always seems to stress exactness of pronunciation. So unless you're breaking out the faux-ld English for RP, You-Know-Who is significantly different enough from Yee-know-who or whatever it's supposed to be precisely, that I'd be pretty unconvinced by a DM trying to pull that crap. If every time someone gets close to a demon lord's name they pop out of the abyss, the prime material would be overrun.

[Efrate]

Core only fighter is a mess. You get minor bonuses to hit and damage with 1 weapon, then can do it all again with your backup weapon. You can get +4 and no AoO for all combat maneuvers, provided you hit 13 int for combat expertise, but they all suck versus most anything a size category or more larger than you or that does not use manufactured weapons. For a significant feat and stat investment, you can enjoy maybe a bonus that offsets the penalty for language and non humanoid to feint and use your move action to deny your opponent who is probably bigher than you 1 or so AC for an attack by being flatfooted.

So core fighter or fightet in general is up there with being silly. Plus most of their feats and feat trees are stuff you would learn normally and be able to do if you had any actual weapon training.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Core only fighter is a mess. You get minor bonuses to hit and damage with 1 weapon, then can do it all again with your backup weapon. You can get +4 and no AoO for all combat maneuvers, provided you hit 13 int for combat expertise, but they all suck versus most anything a size category or more larger than you or that does not use manufactured weapons. For a significant feat and stat investment, you can enjoy maybe a bonus that offsets the penalty for language and non humanoid to feint and use your move action to deny your opponent who is probably bigher than you 1 or so AC for an attack by being flatfooted.

So core fighter or fightet in general is up there with being silly. Plus most of their feats and feat trees are stuff you would learn normally and be able to do if you had any actual weapon training.Even better, Wizard has a single spell (enlarge person) that does almost all of what you mentioned above (bonus to battle maneuvers + no AoOs [from reach]) plus a ton more. Extra reach + the ability to perform maneuvers on creatures of an entire size category larger (rather than auto-failing against Huge+ sized creatures) is crazy-good.

[Efrate]

Yep. First level spell replaces all the improved xxx spells but maybe improved feint, plus arguably mobility. Also is functional spring attack a lot of times since reach fixes a lot.
So saves your stats and we will conservatively say 6 feats. Or all your feats for like 6 levels.

[Particle_Man]

I can't help but chuckle evilly reading responses from the people who just realized material components are all puns and reference gags.



Oh, that's how it's pronounced? For some reason my brain has always read it yee-NOG-oo and I don't think I ever bothered to ask a gnoll about its religious preferences. TBH, though, lore for true names always seems to stress exactness of pronunciation. So unless you're breaking out the faux-ld English for RP, You-Know-Who is significantly different enough from Yee-know-who or whatever it's supposed to be precisely, that I'd be pretty unconvinced by a DM trying to pull that crap. If every time someone gets close to a demon lord's name they pop out of the abyss, the prime material would be overrun.

Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/2015/08/dungeons-dragons-guide-to-yeenoghu.html

[danielxcutter]

Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/2015/08/dungeons-dragons-guide-to-yeenoghu.html

That article explicitly says it's false.

[Luccan]

Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/2015/08/dungeons-dragons-guide-to-yeenoghu.html


That article explicitly says it's false.

Even if it were true, Gygax wasn't right about everything.

Edit: I would also like to voice a complaint about multiclass penalties and favored classes. Favored classes seem intended to be cultural. Half-Orcs don't get the human/half-elf "Favored Class: All" feature because apparently the baseline assumption is that all half-orcs grow up in societies that favor Barbarians. The problem here is that they aren't assumed automatically to grow up with their Orc parent (who also have Favored Class: Barbarian), so do human Barbarians not have Favored Class: All? I know the actual answer is it's purely mechanical reinforcement of archetypes, but back in the day Half-Orcs and Dwarves not being Magic-Users meant something in the world. Being slightly worse at other classes, but only if you multiclass, doesn't mean anything on a world-building level.

[ShurikVch]

I understand why Monk can't wear armor - it's, supposedly, restricts their movement during various martial art moves
Thus - even a Mithral Chain Shirt (12.5 lbs) is a no-go
But, on the other hand, our supposed Monk could put on a Royal Outfit (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#royalOutfit) (15 lbs.), iron-shod iron-toed boots, knight's girdle, armored gorget, metallic enclosed helmet, and a pair of gauntlets - and still don't suffer any ill effects (as long as all aforementioned didn't encumbered them)

[Rater202]

Speaking of armor: The distinction between arcane magic and divine magic seems to exist solely to explain why Wizards can't wear armor but clerics can... except Bards are arcanists. Even though there are a lot of cleric spells with somatic components and many shared spells between the lists.

And there are classes that are meant for Gishes that are just "you have slightly less chance of your spells going wrong" as if being able to cast spells reliably in full-plate is something that's so ridiculously overpowered unless a cleric does it.

It comes across less as "armor interferes with arcane gestures" and more "the gods are jackasses and built reality to make it harder for people who don't worship them and get magic gifted to them to cast spells... Unless they're a bard."

[H_H_F_F]

I understand why Monk can't wear armor - it's, supposedly, restricts their movement during various martial art moves
Thus - even a Mithral Chain Shirt (12.5 lbs) is a no-go
But, on the other hand, our supposed Monk could put on a Royal Outfit (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#royalOutfit) (15 lbs.), iron-shod iron-toed boots, knight's girdle, armored gorget, metallic enclosed helmet, and a pair of gauntlets - and still don't suffer any ill effects (as long as all aforementioned didn't encumbered them)

I've always been driven crazy by another aspect of the same issue - armour penalties.

2 men of identical physique sneak into a castle at bight.

One is wearing black and gray clothes and a lightweight gray cloak over a mail shirt, holding tight a dagger in one hand and a buckler in the other.

The other wears a clown costume, is covered in magical gear (including armour pieces, heavy robes, and jewelry) and is carrying a bright red backpack filled withh cooling utensils.

Guess which one has a harder time sneaking around.

[Luccan]

Speaking of armor: The distinction between arcane magic and divine magic seems to exist solely to explain why Wizards can't wear armor but clerics can... except Bards are arcanists. Even though there are a lot of cleric spells with somatic components and many shared spells between the lists.

And there are classes that are meant for Gishes that are just "you have slightly less chance of your spells going wrong" as if being able to cast spells reliably in full-plate is something that's so ridiculously overpowered unless a cleric does it.

It comes across less as "armor interferes with arcane gestures" and more "the gods are jackasses and built reality to make it harder for people who don't worship them and get magic gifted to them to cast spells... Unless they're a bard."

That really goes all the way back to OD&D. It's a mechanical conceit, at least back in the day, because Clerics were supposed to be healing and supporting as they had fewer "solve encounter" spells, plus they could only use bludgeoning weapons, so they needed something to both make them last a little longer in close combat and to have over Magic-Users. Also, prior to the creation of Paladins, Clerics represented the holy order of knights concept. From a narrative perspective, it could be argued Clerics are bestowed their power by a deity and thus have more time to train other things and Bards* are only dabblers, so they learn a few tricks to let them cast in the least inhibitive armor instead, but their trick means they require vocal components. Wizards, meanwhile, have to spend all their time preparing their minds in study to cast spells through study, but get the "best" spells in exchange. Sorcerers... don't have a great excuse.

*They were also Fighter/Thieves with Druid training originally, so they actually learned spells that could already be cast in some armor.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah you get a +3 bonus at a skill when you put your first point in. This replaces the x4 skill points at level 1, effectively it's the same thing as always maxing a skill when you're making a first level character.

I like this change because of it stopping the order of multiclassing from changing your skill points total.

It only applies to CLASS skills. It is called a class skill bonus. There is no such bonus for nonclass skills, but there is also no penalty to such skills. The end result is very definitely an overall positive, but it does result in far less diversity at low levels.

[Ottriman]

Another silly thing that comes to mind is just how unbalanced martial combat styles are with each other.

High Tier

Dual wielding: lots of attacks, but it requires lots of feats to work, and still probably does less damage than two handed melee overall.

Two handed melee: big damage dice, x1,5 str mod, doubled power attack benefits, no feats required just to make it work.

Mid Tier


Archery: Range is nice, but the damage output is not that great and it struggles against DR.

Unarmed: Monk sucks, and is the most intuitive option. This is mid tier because there are some not too hard ways to make unarmed fighting work pretty well, and you can't be disarmed which is a neat side bonus.

Weapon and Shield: A bit more protection against the least threatening things (weapon attacks), but your damage output tanks compared to dual wielding or two handed melee.

Low Tier

Grappling: Loads of creatures are basically immune (freedom of movement, incorporeal, too big) and others have huge modifiers, ouchies that trigger on contact or more. Plus, when you grapple your ability to permanently take a creature out of the fight is just underwhelming.

Throwing: Like Archery, but worse. Shorter range and the "ammunition" has to be whole weapons, which skyrockets price since you need loads of magic weapons to chuck to overcome DR.

[danielxcutter]

...Archery actually worries about DR the least because you can just have a variety of arrows instead of multiple backup weapons. If anything dual wielding worries more about DR.

Also this is a bit more niche but the Bloodstorm Blade PrC and the Telekinetic Boomerang psionic power both help greatly with throwing builds.

[Ottriman]

...Archery actually worries about DR the least because you can just have a variety of arrows instead of multiple backup weapons. If anything dual wielding worries more about DR.


But your damage per arrow is low enough that it hurts a lot when you cannot bypass it.

And I've never seen anyone play a dual wield build without large sources of extra damage per hit (most popular being sneak attack) that makes DR a relatively minor issue.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, you can usually do that with archery as well.

[Ottriman]

To be fair, you can usually do that with archery as well.

True, though precision damage sources like Sneak attack are usually restricted to 30ft max range, which undercuts the point of being an archer somewhat.

[danielxcutter]

Also true, but once you get to the middle levels I'd say buying a bunch of different arrows is easier than affording half a dozen backup weapons.

[Khedrac]

In my experience low to mid Op archers are fine - they go for bows with loads of different extra damage enchantments, they are very vulnerable to losing the bow though.

Grappling can be surprisingly effective low-mid Op - I saw a centaur character successfully grapple a black drgaon several times - every time the draogn then broke free, but it shut-down the dragon's ability to use full-round attacks on the party (very embarrassing for the DM).

[Nifft]

Also true, but once you get to the middle levels I'd say buying a bunch of different arrows is easier than affording half a dozen backup weapons.

Also the sort of mockery which accompanies a golfbag-of-weapons doesn't apply to a quiver-of-arrows.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unarmed: Monk sucks, and is the most intuitive option. This is mid tier because there are some not too hard ways to make unarmed fighting work pretty well, and you can't be disarmed which is a neat side bonus.Going unarmed monk (but only for a level or two, up to six or so with ACFs; after that, Tashalatora psychic warrior is heavily suggested, if not mandatory) actually has one of the highest optimization ceilings (if not the highest ceiling) out of any melee option, and it doesn't do at all poorly at ranged, either, with the right setup. It's not hard at all to get a +40 melee/ranged unarmed strike equivalent pre-epic by stacking lots of items and effects that all affect your unarmed strike.

But if you don't do that (for instance, if you're sticking with Core only), yeah, unarmed does suck horribly, and it has a very low optimization floor.

[Ottriman]

Going unarmed monk (but only for a level or two, up to six or so with ACFs; after that, Tashalatora psychic warrior is heavily suggested, if not mandatory) actually has one of the highest optimization ceilings (if not the highest ceiling) out of any melee option, and it doesn't do at all poorly at ranged, either, with the right setup. It's not hard at all to get a +40 melee/ranged unarmed strike equivalent pre-epic by stacking lots of items and effects that all affect your unarmed strike.

But if you don't do that (for instance, if you're sticking with Core only), yeah, unarmed does suck horribly, and it has a very low optimization floor.

You are pretty much agreeing with me (put it in mid because it can be anywhere from very bad to very good).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You are pretty much agreeing with me (put it in mid because it can be anywhere from very bad to very good).I just wanted to expand upon your point a bit. Yes, I'm agreeing with you, just tossing more detail in as to just how good it can get and why. I could go into even more detail (for instance, pointing out some insane weapon ability combos you can get going when you have +40 or more to work with), but that's not something I can do and not go off-topic here.

[Rater202]

I'd again repeat tht I've heard that Monk/fighter Gestalt is the best option for unarmed combat, assuming core only, and a reason why people like Gestalt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd again repeat tht I've heard that Monk/fighter Gestalt is the best option for unarmed combat, assuming core only, and a reason why people like Gestalt.Even with gestalt, unless you absolutely have to run a low-tier build and cannot multiclass, there's no reason to take more than one or two monk levels (up to six with ACFs) that can't be done way better by multiclassing.

And if you are stuck in such a build paradigm, monk certainly isn't the worst gestalt half you could do, if you're allowed to properly optimize.

[Rater202]

The half-troll template turns anything it's applied to into a giant.

It can be applied to any creature type.

The example in the book is a half-troll bearded devil.

A being made of evil mating with an ugly giant created a devil that wasn't made of evil instead of a troll that was partially made of evil(half-fiend troll.)

This raises the question... If two creatures that have a "half" template and they mate... What decides what the offspring is?

[Nifft]

What decides what the offspring is?

The DM.

1 0 c h a r

[danielxcutter]

The half-troll template turns anything it's applied to into a giant.

It can be applied to any creature type.

The example in the book is a half-troll bearded devil.

A being made of evil mating with an ugly giant created a devil that wasn't made of evil instead of a troll that was partially made of evil(half-fiend troll.)

This raises the question... If two creatures that have a "half" template and they mate... What decides what the offspring is?

Eh, I'm fine with that one... I mean a half-fiend troll is a troll with fiend traits and a half-troll fiend is a fiend with troll traits I guess.

Though the "half" part is kinda silly I guess, especially since "half-fiendish" is actually a stronger template than "fiendish" and so on.

[Particle_Man]

The DM.

1 0 c h a r

That would be rare enough that as DM I would go for fraternal twins and have one of each!

[hamishspence]

"Fiendish" is more "creature that has adapted to the Lower Planes" - a fiendish cat isn't a cat with one fiend parent - it's a cat whose ancestors migrated to the Lower planes and became tainted with Lower Plane energy.

A fiend, by contrast, is a creature that's native to the Lower Planes, not the descendants of an immigrant.

And a half-fiend has one fiend parent - the template is called half-fiend, not half-fiendish.

[Particle_Man]

That article explicitly says it's false.

My mistake! Looks like my own DM of times past fell for that urban legend, and I just followed along and didn't read the article too carefully. :smallredface:

[danielxcutter]

"Fiendish" is more "creature that has adapted to the Lower Planes" - a fiendish cat isn't a cat with one fiend parent - it's a cat whose ancestors migrated to the Lower planes and became tainted with Lower Plane energy.

A fiend, by contrast, is a creature that's native to the Lower Planes, not the descendants of an immigrant.

And a half-fiend has one fiend parent - the template is called half-fiend, not half-fiendish.

Oh, okay.

Guess that's the same with half-celestial and celestial creatures, but still a little stupid.

[Ottriman]

This is reminding me of the whole "If a Dragon and a Celestial mate, is the result a Dragon with Half-Celestial or a Celestial with Half-Dragon?" question.

Up to the GM I suppose.

But its funny to imagine both results happening from the same coupling, that would be really strange.

[Particle_Man]

Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.

[hamishspence]

This is reminding me of the whole "If a Dragon and a Celestial mate, is the result a Dragon with Half-Celestial or a Celestial with Half-Dragon?" question.

Up to the GM I suppose.

But its funny to imagine both results happening from the same coupling, that would be really strange.

I rather like that idea - it expresses different traits being inherited differently - the "randomness of genetics".

For comparison, look at the three half-dragons depicted in the Draketooth family tree. They all look very different:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html


Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.

There was - in Savage Species, a 3.0 book. The "type pyramid" never made it into 3.5 though.

[Rater202]

Eh, I'm fine with that one... I mean a half-fiend troll is a troll with fiend traits and a half-troll fiend is a fiend with troll traits I guess.

Though the "half" part is kinda silly I guess, especially since "half-fiendish" is actually a stronger template than "fiendish" and so on.The way I think about it: A half-fiend is half a fiend.

a fiendish creature is a fiend... ish.

It is not a fiend, but it's like a fiend. For whatever reason.
Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.

Except a Half-Troll Bearded Devil, the example given in the book, is a Giant, not an Outsider.

Anyway, an odd thing that occurred to me while writing this:

A half-fiend is the offspring of a non-fiend creature and an Outsider with the Evil Subtype.

A half-fiend is, assuming that template stacking shenanigans aren't in play, an outsider with the Evil Subtype.

Thus, by RAW a Half-Fiend's offspring will always be a Half-Fiend even generations later.

Which does make a bit of sense if we consider that, as an outsider with the Evil Subtype, the Half-Fiend is literally made of evil and their non-fiend parent is just providing a template to base off of instead of it being "proper" sexual reproduction, but...

Tieflings are, in 3.5, the result of humans intebreeding with fiends until such a point in time as they are a true-breeding species, with the human aspects being dominant over the diluted fiend traits.

By RAW, this is literally impossible.

[hamishspence]

A half-fiend is the offspring of a non-fiend creature and an Outsider with the Evil Subtype.


Actually it's not - it has "Always X evil" but not the Evil subtype.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

It's also a Native Outsider rather than an Extraplanar Outsider,

[danielxcutter]

Actually it's not - it has "Always X evil" but not the Evil subtype.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

It's also a Native Outsider rather than an Extraplanar Outsider,

...Huh, there really isn't anything forcing a half-fiend to be evil(or a half-celestial to be good) then, is there? I mean, if extraplanar outsiders literally comprised of their alignments can very occasionally change...

Heck, they wouldn't even incorrectly ping as the wrong alignment if they don't have a subtype then. Of course there'd be the standard prejudice and whatnot but if you're in the camp of "sentient mortals with free will are not inherently forced into alignments" like Eberron does(and even more "standard" settings often have exceptions) then it should be at least possible in theory.