Sword of the Arcane Order...and other related questions

[RNightstalker]

So I recently re-discovered the feat and I'm hoping for some feedback. I'm of the mind that being able to prepare wizard spells also implies casting them. But aside from that:

-I've only seen that having wizard levels will stack with paladin and rangers levels as far as caster level, but I've seen a couple threads seem to imply spells per level as well...the given link was broken.

-I've also seen builds try to incorporate abjurant champion and brag about having a +20 BAB and CL of 20, but I don't see it working out.

-How does the Mystic Ranger interact with the above as far as cl and spells per day?

-Aside from those, how close of a match could you get full bab and full spells per level apart from temporary effects?

[Anthrowhale]

I don't see any valid interpretation which has spells/level stacking across wizard and ranger/paladin levels.

Abjurant Champion 5 sets caster level = BAB so BAB 20 implies caster level 20. However, I wouldn't allow AC to advance ranger/paladin casting as nothing in the text of SotAO says that these classes suddenly become arcane spellcasting classes. A debate can be had about whether the wizard spells that a ranger/paladin casts via SotAO are divine or arcane, but even if the spells are arcane Ranger/Paladin remains not an arcane spellcasting class since the feat does not change the class.

Mystic Ranger should work with SotA because it is a Ranger variant. Given the way that Mystic Ranger's spell slots work, you could potentially do a viable build Mystic Ranger 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Mystic Ranger 5 to get BAB 20, caster level 20, and Mystic Ranger 15 casting.

[Darg]

SotAO lets you cast the spells just as Anyspell lets you cast the arcane spells you prepare. You don't suddenly become an arcane caster with it though. RAW allows you to cast these spells without chance of failure because of it. Although you do need to get someone to make you spell books to use it if you don't take a level of wizard.

As for getting high caster level: Mysticfire Knight substitution level increases caster level by +2 + caster levels in other arcane casting classes. one level knight of the weave + mysticfire knight level 4 substitution = infinite caster level loop at the low cost of one wizard level.

[liquidformat]

For starters it is always good to talk to your DM if you are thinking of using SotAO since the interpretations can vary wildly which can also affect how powerful it is. With that said here is my take on it.

Let's start with the prerequisites, I have seen it said multiple times before that in order to take this feat you must have Shooting Star or Mystic Fire substitution levels. However, this interpretation of the prerequisites is to be frank just wrong as there are no substitution levels for the order of the Swords of the High One. As such simple membership in these orders is enough to meet this prerequisite and take the feat. This requirement is simple fluff like alignment choice or home region and the only game mechanic required is being a 4th level ranger or paladin.

Moving onto the meat of the feat, interestingly enough the feat doesn’t actually explicitly mention casting wizard spells only preparing them. This has caused there to be two important and perhaps conflicting questions about the feat. Does the feat allow you to cast the wizard spells you prepared without wizard levels? Are said wizard spells divine or arcane? These two questions are intertwined and the conclusions people make are often conflicting.

Let’s first look at the support for the premise that this feat does allow you to cast wizard spells without wizard levels. This premise seems to be supported by the fact that the second sentence gives you express permission to borrow someone else’s spellbook to prepare wizard spells. And giving the ability to prepare spells without the ability to cast them is dysfunctional and therefore should be an incorrect interpretation. Therefore, the wizard spells prepared and cast must be divine spells since you are a divine caster and capable of preparing and casting them without any wizard levels. However, I believe this reading of the feat is incorrect as it ignores the last line of the feat which specifically correlates wizard caster level to having wizard levels:
“If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.”

Alternatively the feat can be interpreted as not giving you the ability to cast these spells without wizard levels. Since the feat doesn’t expressly give you the ability to cast wizard spells you prepare and as stated above the feat correlates wizard caster level to having wizard levels. This reading seems to put the feat inline with other similar feats like Devoted Tracker that require levels in both classes. Furthermore, the second sentence is simply giving the same functionality to your ranger spell slots as the wizard would have for any other of their spell slots as stated in the rules of wizards rules on spells and spellbooks (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellsandBorrowedSpellbooks ”]borrowing spellbooks[/URL]. This would also confirm that these spells would be cast as arcane spells. I believe the feat and rules better support this argument, since it doesn’t leave a catch 22 hanging out as the former does. And yet as stated above this is a dysfunctional interpretation of the feat since the feat doesn’t require any wizard levels to take the feat. Furthermore, the sentence referenced above starts with “if you also have levels in wizard’ which throws a wrench in this interpretation. It leaves the question of what if you don’t have wizard levels open.

I personally take a mix of these two interpretations and believe it is the most accurate. First of all as a general rule of thumb in dungeons and dragons, if your interpretation of a rule is dysfunctional you are probably interpreting it wrong. Furthermore, the act of preparing a spell is partially casting a spell and just leaving the final bits of the spell not activated so it can be cast later. By this logic if you can prepare a spell you can cast it. Due to the last line correlating caster level to the sum of wizard, ranger and paladin levels the wizard spells cast with ranger/paladin slots are arcane spells.

That only leaves one last screwy question which is without any wizard levels what is your caster level? The feat once more has a dysfunctional reading similar to mystical ranger where it is possible to cast spells with 0 caster levels. Again this type of reading can be assumed to be incorrect since it is dysfunctional. In this case I think there are two equally reasonable arguments that will have to be adjudicated between player and dm. The first is caster level is set at 1 until the character takes one or more levels of wizard/has a feat changing said caster level. This is a reasonable argument that keeps the feat functional but not outright overpowered. The other reading is just removing the first part of the last sentence and taking your wizard caster level to be the sum of your wizard, ranger, and paladin class levels. In the end I lean towards the latter, especially since ranger and paladin already have their caster level nerfed to begin with.

Lastly, there is a final bit of some dispute over whether this feat gives you a spellbook. My interpretation is since it doesn’t expressly give you a spellbook it does not. Furthermore, while anyone can ‘possess’ a spellbook from reading over the [URL="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings), in order for it to be ‘your’ spellbook you have to be the one who wrote the spells into it. Furthermore, doing so requires being a ‘wizard’ and having ranks in spellcraft.

As said above you could borrow a spellbook though the spell craft checks will be a headache for you; you could also take a level in the wizard class; or third you could be human/elf and take the Magical Training feat as a wizard and get a spellbook, 3 level 0 spells per day and CL1 as a wizard. The third option is a bit controversial but still should work for SotAO as written it is just rather powerful.

As said above Shooting Star and Mystic Fire Knight ACFs are both really good choices to take they give you extra spells let you cast arcane spells at arcane caster level + ranger/paladin level +2 and best of all let you stack your arcane caster level with your ranger/paladin level to determine your ranger/paladin CL in effect you get to count your ranger/paladin CL twice and add 2 which is nice. Mystic ranger also works very well with SotAO and most of the abilities of Shooting Star except for weavespeak (since you gain endurance at level 4 with MR) and Bonus spells since you already traded away your animal companion. Again talk to your DM to determine what your caster level should be for Mystic Ranger as the ACF doesn't address that...

PRCs become rather interesting, the fact is that as long as your DM OKs Magical Training working with SotAO and you are taking Shooting Star or Mystic Fire Knight ACFsand/or prcs that progress casting with full bab you will hit BAB 20 and CL 22 at level 20 but that isn't the same as BAB 20, 9th level wizard spells and 4th (5th in MR) level ranger/paladin spells. Besides Abjurant Champion there really aren't any full bab full caster progression PRCs so you are probably going to loose either BAB or spell levels somewhere in the build.

[RNightstalker]

SotAO lets you cast the spells just as Anyspell lets you cast the arcane spells you prepare. You don't suddenly become an arcane caster with it though. RAW allows you to cast these spells without chance of failure because of it. Although you do need to get someone to make you spell books to use it if you don't take a level of wizard.

As for getting high caster level: Mysticfire Knight substitution level increases caster level by +2 + caster levels in other arcane casting classes. one level knight of the weave + mysticfire knight level 4 substitution = infinite caster level loop at the low cost of one wizard level.

I'm definitely on the same page that a Ranger is still a divine caster, just with access to traditionally arcane spells.

As far as the mysticfire knight, can you flesh that out a little?

[liquidformat]

I'm definitely on the same page that a Ranger is still a divine caster, just with access to traditionally arcane spells.

As far as the mysticfire knight, can you flesh that out a little?

Mystic Fire Knight Paladin and Shooting Star Ranger substitution levels are pretty much the same just for the two different classes. They are both found in Champions of Valore (same source as SotAO) they both give bonus spells at a couple different levels and an identical Improved Spellcasting ability which Darg stated above. the only difference is Mystic Fire Knight gets spellshatter in place of remove disease whereas Shooting Star gets Weavespeak in place of endurance.

One thing to note is if you go Mystic Ranger and are a race that gives you endurance (there is an orc or half-orc that does this AFB so will have to look later) you can take a different feat in place of the endurance ability and since Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at 4th level you can take SotAO as a bonus feat at level 4 which puts you a head of the game!

[malloc]

So I recently re-discovered the feat and I'm hoping for some feedback. I'm of the mind that being able to prepare wizard spells also implies casting them. But aside from that:

-I've only seen that having wizard levels will stack with paladin and rangers levels as far as caster level, but I've seen a couple threads seem to imply spells per level as well...the given link was broken.

-I've also seen builds try to incorporate abjurant champion and brag about having a +20 BAB and CL of 20, but I don't see it working out.

-How does the Mystic Ranger interact with the above as far as cl and spells per day?

-Aside from those, how close of a match could you get full bab and full spells per level apart from temporary effects?

1) Your caster level is only modified by this feat if you have levels of wizard. If you have no wizard levels, you do not get to add things. For the wizard spells you prepare in your paladin or ranger spell slots, your caster level is the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger levels. This does not impact your caster level when not casting wizard spells. Caster level does not impact spells per level or spells known. It is only caster level.

2) You can have an abjurant champion with +20 BAB and CL 20, but your CL 20 will only apply to the class you qualified for abjurant champion for. Unfortunately, the wording on abjurant champion is tight enough to avoid any type of 20+x+y+z CL math. Good thought, though. If you want to do CL abuse, use a dual-progression PrC. But you'll have to find a spell that allows you to cash out on that CL abuse, so make sure you can get the most out of that path, should you choose to go that direction.

3) I did a brief poke about for some variant class rules wording and did not find anything concrete in the wording, so my assumption is that mystic ranger qualifies as ranger for all reasonable purposes. In that case, it would work exactly the same way as ranger does: you could prepare any known/found wizard spells in your ranger slots and presumably cast them; you would be able to stack mystic ranger, paladin, and wizard levels for effective CL on your wizard spells IF you have at least 1 level in wizard; you would not have any relevant change to spells per day from SotAO.

4) There are a few ways to get full BAB and full spells. The difficult part is not getting 20 CL, it's getting access to your maximum spell level (which is not tied to CL).

[RNightstalker]

One thing to note is if you go Mystic Ranger and are a race that gives you endurance (there is an orc or half-orc that does this AFB so will have to look later) you can take a different feat in place of the endurance ability and since Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at 4th level you can take SotAO as a bonus feat at level 4 which puts you a head of the game!

I'll have to keep that in mind. But how far ahead does that put you on someone that waits until 6th for SotAO?




4) There are a few ways to get full BAB and full spells. The difficult part is not getting 20 CL, it's getting access to your maximum spell level (which is not tied to CL).

You've got my attention. I know Eldritch Knight is in the ballpark w/ 9/10 spell progression, and the aforementioned Abjurant Champion. But even on a quick search nothing close is coming up.

[Darg]

I'm definitely on the same page that a Ranger is still a divine caster, just with access to traditionally arcane spells.

As far as the mysticfire knight, can you flesh that out a little?

Mystic Fire Knight (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/baseCore/paladin.html#mystic-fire-knight) is substitution class levels. At 4th you can choose to take Mystic Fire Knight levels to gain an extra spell slot, +2 caster level, and your paladin caster level stacks with any other arcane caster class you possess. This means that with one level of wizard and SotAO feat at paladin 19/wizard 1 you have 31 caster levels for your paladin.


I'll have to keep that in mind. But how far ahead does that put you on someone that waits until 6th for SotAO?



You've got my attention. I know Eldritch Knight is in the ballpark w/ 9/10 spell progression, and the aforementioned Abjurant Champion. But even on a quick search nothing close is coming up.

It's the 5th level ability of Abjurant Champion:


Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art of combining your militant and mystical training. From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.

Basically, it's the belief that casting arcane spells turns you into an arcane casting class. This is not true, but SotAO does qualify you to enter the class; you only need the ability to cast the spells, not be an arcane caster.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darg
Mystic Fire Knight is substitution class levels. At 4th you can choose to take Mystic Fire Knight levels to gain an extra spell slot, +2 caster level, and your paladin caster level stacks with any other arcane caster class you possess. This means that with one level of wizard and SotAO feat at paladin 19/wizard 1 you have 31 caster levels for your paladin.

Not sure I follow. By your example, you should have a caster level of 12 for paladin spells and 20 for wizard spells. I'm not seeing an interaction that would kick either of those any higher.

[Darg]

Improved Spellcasting (Ex): When casting paladin spells, a Mystic Fire Knight can treat her caster level as equal to one-half her paladin level +2. If she also has arcane spellcasting ability from another class, she can add her caster level from that class to this value to determine her paladin caster level.

It says caster level not class level. The wizard side has 20 caster levels. Paladin has 11. 20 +11 = 31 caster levels. If a person is one of those that don't allow practiced spellcaster to disqualify itself, it could get to 39 caster levels.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by darg
The wizard side has 20 caster levels. Paladin has 11. 20 +11 = 31 caster levels.

Are you saying that one or the other side can cast at CL 31, or are you just summing up the total number of caster levels from the two different sides?

[Anthrowhale]

SotAO says wizard caster level = wizard class level + paladin class level = 20

MFK says paladin caster level = wizard caster level + paladin class level / 2 + 2 = 20 (see above) + 9 + 2 = 31

That's high, but you are stuck with paladin casting. A better approach here is Knight of the Weave, and better than that is Theurgic Specialist.