[3.5] Polymorph Any Object and Ability Score Increases

[TallerSpine]

Suppose a character is under the effects of a Polymorph Any Object spell with permanent duration. They gain a level that grants an ability score increase. What happens? Suppose the Polymorph Any Object spell is later dispelled. Now what happens?

This can be both beneficial and detrimental to a player. If an evil witch curses the fighter to be an average human to see what it is like, the fighter would very much like the ability score increase to affect the stats he/she cares about. And similarly, when he/she finally finds a caster capable of a powerful enough Dispel Magic, the fighter will want the ability score increase to now apply to the base character's stat.

However, a wizard who reaches 11th level can use Polymorph to become a White Ethergaunt. Then, use a scroll of Polymorph Any Object to make the effect permanent. The wizard now has a permanent Int score of 27. When the wizard levels up, can he increase this to a 28? Does he gain skill points as though his Int is 28?

I have checked for specific rules references, and there are some. For example, on page 58 of the PHB, it says that permanent increases to Int affect skill points, so it would seem that the permanent 27 Int would work for more skill points, but it is much less clear what happens to the ability score increase. It is not clear whether it can or should be applied to the polymorphed ability score. Perhaps those ability scores are fixed, and the ability score increase is always applied to the base character's ability scores. This is how I ruled it in my most recent game where this came up, but I was wondering if there is reason to rule differently.

[Gruftzwerg]

The problem is, that the polymorph line doesn't increase your stats. You "gain" the stat. And since the effect is permanent in your chase, any ability score increase gets nullified in the next moment (when the permanent effect of PaO again affects your stats and sets em to those of the chosen form).

To prevent any dysfunction I would suggest to following (imho valid) interpretation:
You "gain the ability scores (str, dex..) of the new form" doesn't delete "your ability scores". They (your ability scores) are just nonfunctional for the duration of the polymorph effect.

The spells (poly, alter self..) don't even mention that you change back at the end of the duration, nor that your gain your real stats again at the end. As such, to prevent any dysfunctions, we have to assume that the stat gained temporary overshadow "your ability scores" for the duration of the effect (even if permanent).

If you wouldn't assume this as given, your ability scores would never change back after any polymorph spell.

But if you follow my assumption, the "gain xyz ability scores of target form" effect can vanish at the end of the duration and reveal "your ability scores" again.

[TallerSpine]

The problem is, that the polymorph line doesn't increase your stats. You "gain" the stat. And since the effect is permanent in your chase, any ability score increase gets nullified in the next moment (when the permanent effect of PaO again affects your stats and sets em to those of the chosen form).

To prevent any dysfunction I would suggest to following (imho valid) interpretation:
You "gain the ability scores (str, dex..) of the new form" doesn't delete "your ability scores". They (your ability scores) are just nonfunctional for the duration of the polymorph effect.

The spells (poly, alter self..) don't even mention that you change back at the end of the duration, nor that your gain your real stats again at the end. As such, to prevent any dysfunctions, we have to assume that the stat gained temporary overshadow "your ability scores" for the duration of the effect (even if permanent).

If you wouldn't assume this as given, your ability scores would never change back after any polymorph spell.

But if you follow my assumption, the "gain xyz ability scores of target form" effect can vanish at the end of the duration and reveal "your ability scores" again.

That sounds like a good assumption.

On the flip side, my player made a good point that the rules go out of their way to treat temporary effects differently from permanent ones. Polymorphing for a few minutes is very different from living your life under the effects of a polymorph spell of permanent duration. It is why temporary changes to intelligence do not affect skill points gained per level, but permanent changes do. During the game, I said for game balance, I just want to rule it this way, and the player agreed it was easier. But, the player's point about the rules making distinctions between temporary and permanent effects is still valid, and it does make me wonder if there could be a way to keep things consistent.

I agree with you completely that trying to come up with different rules for permanent polymorph effects is probably problematic at best. I can think of many ways that it would lead to inconsistencies. From what you are saying, it sounds like you would rule the same way I did, which definitely makes me feel better that I did not come up with an awkward ruling. So thank you for backing me up :). But, would it be possible to come up with some internally consistent rules (that also agree with RAW) for this? Perhaps I am asking for a house rule at this point, but it does seem like once you spend enough time in a Polymorph form, you may start to identify that way. On the other hand, we had a character get reincarnated from a gnome to a half-elf. He still thinks of himself as a gnome, and that was like a year of game time ago, so maybe I am overthinking this. Maybe your base form is always your true form, and even a permanent duration spell changing that is still just a perversion of your true self.

[Endarire]

I assumed ability scores have a separate instantaneous duration bonus. Thus, if you have +1 STR from levels and use polymorph to set your STR to something, you get the new form's STR plus 1 from leveling plus other mods, like from items.

[False God]

As Gruftzwerg wrote, I have always run polymorph effects as replacement effects. You were X, now you are Y. Ability score increases affect X until Y becomes X (like via the Savage Species monster transformation thingy or Wish or something of that sort). It doesn't matter if the polymorph effect is permanent or not, it's still an effect setting X to Y and ability scores only change X. As soon as the effect ends, X comes back into play and the ASIs start affecting it again.

To make a polymorph truly permanent you need it to stop being an effect. Y needs to become X somehow. Then the ASIs will affect the new X.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

To make a polymorph truly permanent you need it to stop being an effect. Y needs to become X somehow. Then the ASIs will affect the new X.

Would somehow getting PAO cast as an instantaneous spell work? That would make PAO a one and done spell, nothing to dispel, no ongoing magical effects. Getting it as an instantaneous spell is probably the provenance of wish, but who knows?