[3.PF->3.5] Alchemists: How Do They Work?

[ChudoJogurt]

So, one guy from our group asked to play Alchemist from PF for our 3.5 Campaign. I read the class description and the Handbook, and I kinda don't get it?

What is that class supposed to do?
The damage of the bombs seems to be on the lower side (on par with Rogue sneak attack, except +Int and small splash, but limited use). His elixirs are neat, but kinda theme-less, and provide no synergy with the bombs, and mutagens are, again, an entirely third ability, again rather poorly interacting with the elixirs and almost not interacting with the bombs.

So.. Is that really, at the base, a Tier 4 class, akin to the Warlock or am I missing something?
If I am, would someone share a decent Alchemist build (preferably without relying on too many PF-exclusive books and systems) that would fit well in a Tier 3 game?

[Firebug]

Not sure what tier list you are using, but a quick internet search get me the top result of this one (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System). It has Alchemist at tier 3 for Pathfinder. So it should probably fit in.

Anecdotally, I have played a couple Alchemists in Pathfinder. Well, one full Alchemist(Grenadier Archetype), and several that dipped into it for a couple levels.
At lower levels I played mostly as a self-buffing Strength fighter with a Polearm or feral mutagen discovery (claw x2, bite while under mutagen). Bombs were more of a ranged option if I needed it.
Higher levels I used some Pathfinder stuff (2 traits and mithral armor of comfort) to wear Hellknight Plate (MW Full Plate) without having proficiency, and without any penalties (other than the move speed). Mostly, I stood in front and 'tanked' with the option of whipping out scrolls to buff/heal the party. Almost all of my feats were simply 'additional discovery' other than like, power attack.

Some important tricks are: Alchemical Allocation(use without expending) with high CL potions or potions that aren't on your list. At the time I played it, it also worked with any Elixirs, and one of the grand discoveries is Elixir of Life(true resurrection or contingent resurrection if you use it on yourself before you die) ... so... yeah.
A Conductive bow with the Explosive Missile discovery. And tangleshot arrows. And Ghast Retch Flask via Grenadier. Basically, standard action (and a swift) spend 3 bombs, do damage of 2 bombs target is automatically entangled (check for stuck to ground, tangleshot), automatically sickened (check for nauseate, ghast retch flask), 1-2 bomb effects (I like Sand Bomb for auto-blind for 1 round).
Delayed Consumption allows them to drink a potion/extract and delay the effects until they need it. This is especially useful for something like Restoration which normally takes 3 rounds to cast... for anyone else besides the Alchemist. Since extracts are potion-like, they only take a standard action to 'cast' ie consume, so long casting extracts are faster than other casters, this is a little mitigated by the next point...
Default, other people can't drink Alchemist Extracts(or mutagen), they have to take the Infusion discovery first(or infuse mutagen).

There are some Alchemist Extracts that affect bombs. One removes the splash damage, but increases the direct damage and range. Another deals damage every time the target moves afterwards.

[Gallowglass]

So, one guy from our group asked to play Alchemist from PF for our 3.5 Campaign. I read the class description and the Handbook, and I kinda don't get it?

What is that class supposed to do?
The damage of the bombs seems to be on the lower side (on par with Rogue sneak attack, except +Int and small splash, but limited use). His elixirs are neat, but kinda theme-less, and provide no synergy with the bombs, and mutagens are, again, an entirely third ability, again rather poorly interacting with the elixirs and almost not interacting with the bombs.

So.. Is that really, at the base, a Tier 4 class, akin to the Warlock or am I missing something?
If I am, would someone share a decent Alchemist build (preferably without relying on too many PF-exclusive books and systems) that would fit well in a Tier 3 game?

I think you are missing some synchronicity between the main powersets.

The Mutagen, for example, can be used to increase dexterity for the physical stat (instead of the traditional strength). Dexterity factors in making ranged attacks with the bombs.

The real boon that I think you are missing are the Discoveries that you get every other level (opposite bomb dice damage increases) that can all be used to add and improve what your bombs can do.

So its a ranged sneak attack against touch AC with not-insubstantial splash damage that almost always has some rider effect from discoveries. Oh and is useful against undead, constructs, oozes and other things that sneak attacks usually aren't. That you can use often enough to easily see you through a normal 3 encounter combat day. You'll be surprised at how much damage they put out.

The elixers are just a small list of spells that usually amount to self buffs.

The other benefit, however, ties into the pathfinder craft alchemy skill. With minimal work (a few feats) you can craft a substantial quantity or potions and alchemical objects that can substantially help out the rest of the team.

[Thunder999]

Remember that when you hit level 8 you can take the fast bombs discovery and full attack with bombs, they work with both rapid shot and two weapon fighting so you can put out a huge amount of both damage and debuffs in a single round.

[Kurald Galain]

So.. Is that really, at the base, a Tier 4 class, akin to the Warlock or am I missing something?
You're missing the Discoveries, yes.

Most alchemist builds I've seen will use their elixirs to hand out buffs to the party at need (note that elixirs allow you to hand out self-only spells like Shield to your teammates instead); use a mutagen to either boost their dex (+natural armor) or their int (bomb damage) when things get dangerous, and toss lots and lots of bombs around. Note in particular the ability to throw multiple bombs per turn (once they get 6 BAB), and the ability to attach nasty rider effects to all their bombs (like nauseate or blind or confusion).

That's not the only way to play an alchemist, but it's the most popular in my area. And yes, they're effective.

[Firebug]

If you have only 1-2 combats per in-game day, then throwing 10-20 bombs against touch AC feels strong with Fast Bombs allowing you to throw with both hands, rapid shot, iteratives and haste. More then 2 combats and they can be out of bombs completely, and are just shooting a bow.

That is partially why I leaned toward a strength base, with bombs for fun with the conductive bow. My 'main shtick' didn't run out.

[Ramza00]

They are 2/3rds spellcasters whose abilities are not supposed to synergizes but also to synergize slightly and thus you get a jack of all trade characters.

This is by class design. It is just a different ethos, a different sentiment of how to design a d20 class that many 3.5 classes decided to make.

You got lots of abilities but in the end of the day you are still a weird bard like spellcaster except your spells only affect you without certain feats or archetypes.

[Particle_Man]

How does it compare to the artificer?

[Thunder999]

It's pretty much nothing like an artificer, the only magic items you can make are potions (you don't technically cast spells so don't qualify for any crafting feats, but you get brew potion as a class feature).

There is a discovery and an archetype which let you craft constructs very well (treat ranks in craft(alchemy) as CL, use them for all relevant checks, even for stuff like sculpting a statue for the body, use your extracts to meet spell requirements).


They're very much the pathfinder classic of 3/4 BAB and 6th level spells along with decent skills to make a solid jack of all trades gish type.

You can do a lot with bombs, both in large amounts of reliable damage and lots of debuffs (ordinary stuff like staggered, prone, blind, nauseated etc. and some weird stuff like not being allowed to stand up or move from a square or being moved around)

But you also have mutagen which boosts a physical ability score and your natural armour to make you better at combat, boost strength for melee or dex for ranged.
Or you swap it out for a cognatogen with an archetype and can boost your int for higher DCs on your bombs.

And extracts, which are up to 6th level spells, but they work more like potions and are self only by default. Draw and drink as a standard action, no concentration checks ever required.
Take infusion and you can hand them out to allies, which lets you hand out powerful personal range buffs.

Oh and you add your int mod to damage with alchemical weapons like alchemists fire, grab a hybridisation funnel to mix two alchemical weapons together (acid+alchemists fire for 2d6+int mod to the main target and 2+int mod splash) and it's a solid option for lower levels.

Your typical alchemist will either be primarily ranged with bombs and a longbow (grenadier archetype gives you a martial weapon and lets you apply alchemical items to attacks with it) or melee (probably swapping bombs for sneak attack via vivisectionist) and relying on mutagen and self buffs like monstrous physique and enlarge person.

Other unique options include full pouch, which duplicates an alchemical item and sets its save DC to the DC of the extract (usually a boost) which both lets you use expensive items multiple times and raise the DC of things like tanglefoot bags to make them much stronger.
Alchemical allocation lets you infinitely re-use an elixir or potion, so you can use a high CL potion of a scaling buff like barkskin or just make use of the many powerful but overpriced elixirs that exist.

[Firebug]

It's pretty much nothing like an artificer, the only magic items you can make are potions (you don't technically cast spells so don't qualify for any crafting feats, but you get brew potion as a class feature).

There is a discovery and an archetype which let you craft constructs very well (treat ranks in craft(alchemy) as CL, use them for all relevant checks, even for stuff like sculpting a statue for the body, use your extracts to meet spell requirements).There is a discovery called "Spell Knowledge" that gives you a single spell (actually prepare and cast as an arcane spell) and a CL = Alchemist level that gets around all of that. So since you now have an arcane caster level, you can qualify for various things. Like spellcasting prestige classes, Arcane Strike, crafting feats, etc. Also in PF you can simply increase the DC of the craft for requirements that you are missing (except the base feat). So, if you don't have that particular spell on your list? Just add 5 to the DC.


Oh and you add your int mod to damage with alchemical weapons like alchemists fire, grab a hybridisation funnel to mix two alchemical weapons together (acid+alchemists fire for 2d6+int mod to the main target and 2+int mod splash) and it's a solid option for lower levels.Actually, 1d6+int acid and 1d6+int fire. Its 'as if hit by both' so you get to add your Int mod twice... and they get energy resistance twice. I actually prefer Acid + Alkali flasks (never mind that they should neutralize each other IRL), as they are both acid damage, and the Alkali is cheaper then Alchemist's Fire.


Other unique options include full pouchOh, hey. They finally updated that spell to say 'use the original DC or this spell DC whichever is higher'. It used to say 'whichever is lower', which fits in to the fluff of 'suffers a slight reduction in quality' in the previous sentence.

To the OP, if you want you can direct your player here and if you post your other players builds, I am sure we can get something reasonably appropriate in power level.

[Kurald Galain]

Acid + Alkali flasks (never mind that they should neutralize each other IRL),

True, but the game also allows a Flaming Frost sword :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

So, one guy from our group asked to play Alchemist from PF for our 3.5 Campaign. I read the class description and the Handbook, and I kinda don't get it?

What is that class supposed to do?
The damage of the bombs seems to be on the lower side (on par with Rogue sneak attack, except +Int and small splash, but limited use). His elixirs are neat, but kinda theme-less, and provide no synergy with the bombs, and mutagens are, again, an entirely third ability, again rather poorly interacting with the elixirs and almost not interacting with the bombs.

So.. Is that really, at the base, a Tier 4 class, akin to the Warlock or am I missing something?
If I am, would someone share a decent Alchemist build (preferably without relying on too many PF-exclusive books and systems) that would fit well in a Tier 3 game?

Alchemists are T3. Discoveries are the key to unlocking their optimal effectiveness; I can see how you might arrive at T4 if you haven't yet read through them (or at least the good ones). An alchemist with no discoveries or archetypes could probably land at the low end of T3 / high T4.

Even without discoveries, bomb damage is decently high when you consider that: (a) they are ranged touch attacks, (b) require no setup to trigger e.g. flanking or concealment, (c) scale with your primary stat, (d) ignore spell resistance due to being supernatural, and (e) do scaling splash damage to clustered enemies/swarms. WITH discoveries, you get to add other pros to the column, such as full-attacking with them as early as 8, tailoring their element on the fly based on the needs of the encounter, and reconfiguring their splash radius so as to minimize impact to allies and maximize impact to the enemy.

They are also very strong in melee. Their mutagens provide an alchemical bonus, a rare type which stacks with all the usual suspects like enhancement, morale, size, competence etc. In addition, they have some particularly strong extracts for martial combat, such as shapeshifting (Beast Shape, Monstrous Physique etc.), buffs like haste, flight, AC, invisibility, and so on.