Monster Academy?

[Anthrowhale]

Has anyone looked into systematically applying the PHBII retraining rules for monsters? In particular swapping feats and skills around?

My impression is that the designers were sometimes rather uncreative with such choices, leaving room for choices which are more interesting, better fitting, etc...

One example is a Marilith (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) with greater multiweapon fighting (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting) instead of weapon focus(longsword) and Combat Expertise. The plethora of attacks both fits the concept well and is pretty effective at dishing out damage.

Another good-but-rarely-used feat is ability focus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) which makes any creature with an iconic attack-with-a-save more invested in their signature.

[Remuko]

Has anyone looked into systematically applying the PHBII retraining rules for monsters? In particular swapping feats and skills around?

My impression is that the designers were sometimes rather uncreative with such choices, leaving room for choices which are more interesting, better fitting, etc...

One example is a Marilith (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) with greater multiweapon fighting (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greaterMultiweaponFighting) instead of weapon focus(longsword) and Combat Expertise. The plethora of attacks both fits the concept well and is pretty effective at dishing out damage.

Another good-but-rarely-used feat is ability focus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) which makes any creature with an iconic attack-with-a-save more invested in their signature.

i always assume a human player using a monster gets to rechoose those things and those are just the "general populace" of the race that tend to have the loadout in the statblock. i also assume most DMs would tweak the statblock as needed for their game, such as a monster having a different weapon or different skill points allocated for the role they serve etc.

[Anthrowhale]

i always assume a human player using a monster gets to rechoose those things and those are just the "general populace" of the race that tend to have the loadout in the statblock. i also assume most DMs would tweak the statblock as needed for their game, such as a monster having a different weapon or different skill points allocated for the role they serve etc.

I expect this is fairly typical.

I'm wondering about a step beyond this. Particularly for intelligent monsters, many of the feat choices and some of the skill choices seem poor enough to defeat versimilitude. Why for example does a Pit Fiend (inteligence 26) not trade Great Cleave for Improved Multiattack (given 4 secondary attacks), Improved Natural Attack (claw) (dealing +1d8 damage per claw), or Ability Focus(Poison) (given a supernasty poison)? All of these seem more likely to be useful than a situation where it's critical to mow through a large number of low hit point opponents who are immune to fear aura in record time.

Perhaps the answer is "because it can't: it's just made this way". I could imagine preferring that answer, but for me it's a bit jarring.

[Endarire]

As GM, I've set creatures' levels, feats, traits, flaws, etc. to make them more of what I wanted.

[False God]

As GM, I've set creatures' levels, feats, traits, flaws, etc. to make them more of what I wanted.

I suspect the intention of monsters is such. Fiddle with them to your hearts content to make more interesting or unique enemies and encounters.

I don't think there are rules for this because monster design is more silly putty than architecture.

[Elves]

You don't need to reach for the retraining rules to justify this. Excepting racial bonus feats there seems to be nothing essential about a monster's feat, skill or build choices.

[Thurbane]

You don't need to reach for the retraining rules to justify this. Excepting racial bonus feats there seems to be nothing essential about a monster's feat, skill or build choices.

True. I often re-jig feats for monsters as required.

Skills are a little trickier, because skills other than those listed in their entry are cross-class (unless you take a feat or similar that makes them class skills).

It can still be worth it, even as cross-class. For instance, the number of monsters that have SLAs but no ranks in Concentration is annoying: it makes it hard for them to use SLAs defensively, and makes them easily disrupted if they are hit.

[Elves]

But I think Anthrowhale actually wanted to discuss what the best feats to assign are.

This is not about charop, but for practical play where I want fun monsters with minimal time investment it's all about making the 1-3 rounds the monster will be in play count. SLA metamagic feats, especially Quicken SLA, are great for this. If you know your go to's, it takes 30 sec per statblock to replace its feats with ones that will make a better encounter.

Most DMs ignore the monster building rules and slap on numbers, which I agree with on principle, but the point is the rules aren't there for their own sake but to make it easier. If you know the game, quick stat rebuild is often faster than making stuff up.

(Similar vein, when people talk about hour-long combats my guess is it's usually because people in the group don't know the game well or the DM's not on their stuff. If you run the game smoothly then unless you're individually playing 100 hobgoblins, each encounter should take 30 mins max even with fluff and description. That's one of the reasons the roleplayer/powerplayer dichotomy is so false, because groups who know the rules well can get through the combats fast + get back to the storytelling.)

[Thurbane]

But I think Anthrowhale actually wanted to discuss what the best feats to assign are.

Well, it depends a lot on the monster type, but some I've used myself:

For melee brutes with lots of HD, I like Martial Study & Martial Stance.

Deformity (madness) can really help out creatures with awful Will saves against mind-affecting save-or-lose effects. As extra cheese, it can be given for "free" if the creature worships an Elder Evil.

Creatures with high enough level SLAs can really benefit from Quicken Spell Like Ability, adding action economy.

Stealthy creatures should basically all have Darkstalker to foil special senses.

Any creature with telepathy will benefit hugely from Mindsight.

Improved Toughness can be worthwhile on Constructs and Undead, if they have enough HD.

Also, the Fey Presence, Fey Legacy / Fiendish Presence and Fiendish Legacy feats are a nice, if feat intensive, way to give SLAs to creatures.

[Efrate]

It gets into weird CR areas sometimes. It is very easy to tip a monster up a few CR doing this. Giving ubercharger feats and sudden leap to a melee brute can very easily get to the one person in range is dead a round. Being threatening is fine, but dropping people instantly, especially if the monster is smart enough to target a healer first, can easily TPK or jist make stuff unfun for a player. For a boss or miniboss fine, but for random encounter 3 of 4 it is likely too much.

Also if giving quicken SLA i would try to do it as a bonus feat, because requires CL 10 or more which a LOT of SLAs are not thay high


That being said, toughness, dodge, mobility, spring attack, alertness, great cleave and possibly cleave should always be replaced.

Every monster with 3 or more attacks should get multiattack, every high dex monster should get weapon finesse. Improved/unholy toughness should be replacing toughness and stacking.

A lot of it is due to most suppliments using just PHB as a feat source, or the book said critter is in, since they would be guaranteed to have those at least. However PHB feats are pretty bad, and most MMs only have a handful of anything new.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Yeah, I agree retraining rules aren't needed.

...
Tumble is another nice skill which monsters often don't get.

But I think Anthrowhale actually wanted to discuss what the best feats to assign are.
I'm actually wondering if anyone has created a reference? Because

...it depends...
is correct. It takes a fair bit of system mastery to pick things on the fly well.


...Giving ubercharger feats ...
I agree here---the high op choices might be to much.

A lot of it is due to most suppliments using just PHB as a feat source, or the book said critter is in, since they would be guaranteed to have those at least. However PHB feats are pretty bad, and most MMs only have a handful of anything new.
At he same time, even if you confine yourself to just PHB/MM feats, almost every MM monster can benefit from a better feat loadout.

There are several natural choices for scope of feat sources.

PHB+MM
SRD
Online
All WotC non-setting sources
All WotC sources
WotC + Dragon/Dungeon
nearly anywhere.

Perhaps (2) or (3) would be a good general choice?

[Efrate]

I tend to go for 4 of those options. I understand why it was built that way. Quicken SLA actually bugs me because of scaling. You are going to be hard pressed to quicken a reasonable spell that is CR appropriate with the caster levels prereqs which increase. Lvl 10 can quicken a level 1 spell. So a magic missle or minor buff. Scales only up to 6th at CL 20.

Other than greater dispel, what are you quickening since most monster loadouts are blasty spells, maybe fly and sensoray related stuff. A quickened chain lightning is not exactly a major deal at level 20.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool setting element/plot hook. A literal academy where monsters go to learn how to make the best use of their natural abilities, retraining their base feats into more useful ones.

[Efrate]

Book of 9 Swords is really good for that. A lot of the humanoid/humanoid adjacent monster having secret techniques they pass on is a great place to start. Have to prove your worth to gain access to it. Its a great way to introduce stuff and makes it feel special.

[Elves]

It gets into weird CR areas sometimes. It is very easy to tip a monster up a few CR doing this. Giving ubercharger feats and sudden leap to a melee brute can very easily get to the one person in range is dead a round. Being threatening is fine, but dropping people instantly, especially if the monster is smart enough to target a healer first, can easily TPK or jist make stuff unfun for a player. For a boss or miniboss fine, but for random encounter 3 of 4 it is likely too much.
If you have a somewhat optimized party the book monsters are probably under-CRed, reasonable to update them in response.
The game is actually pretty lethal if played at "baseline" op-level -- try sending WOTC iconics with healbot/blastbot gameplay against MM creatures, often doesn't end well.
I absolutely agree about not overdoing it but IMO it's more about conservation of detail -- if every mook is some complex tactical beast or every joe is an ubercharger, it's boring and draws things out unnecessarily. However, there is a world of difference between that and slapping on Improved Initiative or Combat Reflexes in place of Toughness, or even Martial Study (Action without Thought) instead of Lightning Reflexes, which will be more memorable + cinematic.

[Thurbane]

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool setting element/plot hook. A literal academy where monsters go to learn how to make the best use of their natural abilities, retraining their base feats into more useful ones.

https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/open-uri20150608-27674-eh520w_93dd9d9b.jpeg

[Anthrowhale]

Working through some examples might be helpful. I took a look at the Angels (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) and Demons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm) limiting to MM+PHB feats. Does anyone see improvements?

Astral Deva:
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Ability Focus(Stun), Improved Initiative, Flyby Attack
Extra Special Qualities: Aid, Invisibility, Holy Aura precast

Planetar:
Feats: Extend Spell, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Extra Special Qualities: Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast precast
New Spells: Extended Greater Magic Weapon, Extended Magic Vestment, Extended Heroes' Feast

Solar:
Feats: Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Quicken Spell, Power Attack, Track
Extra Special Qualities: Invisibility, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast, resist energy(electricity 30, fire 30, sonic 30) precast
New Spells: Extended Greater Magic Weapon (bow), Extended Magic Vestment, Extended Heroes' Feast, Quicken Divine Favor, Quicken Divine Power, Quicken Righteous Might

Babau:
Feats: Multiattack, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Extra Special Qualities: See Invisibility precast

Balor
Feats: Ability Focus[Dominate Monster], Quicken SLA[Telekinesis], Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Extra Special Qualities: Unholy Aura precast

Bebilith
Feats: Improved Initiative, Ability Focus(Poison), Multiattack, Snatch, Track

Glabrezu:
Feats: Multiattack, Negotiator, Improved Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack[Pincer], Snatch
Altered Skills: Bluff+20, Diplomacy+28, Intimidate+22, Knowledge[Nobility & Royalty]+18, Sense Motive+20, Move Silently+0
Extra Special Qualities: Mirror Image precast

Hezrou:
Feats: Improved Natural Attack[Bite], Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Improved Initiative

Marilith:
Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Different Weapons: Large Guisarme, Two-handed Sword, and 2x Rapiers (The 50 pound limit is harsh. Mithril would help...)
Extra Special Qualities: Align Weapon, Magic Weapon, See Invisibility, and Unholy Aura precast

Nalfeshnee:
Feats: Hover, Ability Focus(Smite), Improved Natural Attack(bite), Multiattack, Snatch
Extra Special Qualities: Call Lightning, Unholy Aura precast

Quasit:
Extra Special Qualities: Invisibility precast

Succubus:
Feats: Persuasive, Ability Focus[Charm Monster], Improved Initiative
Altered Skills: Diplomacy +21, Disguise +27 (+29 acting), Knowledge[Nobility & Royalty] +12, Move Silently +1

Vrock:
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack(claw)
Extra Special Qualities: Mirror Image precast