Reckless Rogue

[Wasp]

Hi everyone

I would like to try out a STR based rogue/barbarian multiclass build that uses reckless attack to grant sneak attacks.My understanding is for this to work I need to do STR based attacks with finesse weapons, so I guess that's not the best thing in the world damage wise and a pure barbarian may outdamage such a multiclass, but maybe there are ways to compensate? How about using this with a Double Bladed Scimitar with the Revenant Blade feat? Any advice would be welcome!

[Konradhelt]

I really want to play a Conan type character (from the books) like this. Put str & con as main stats and 14 in Dex. Expertise in Athletics and start combat with reckless, grapple sneak attack (possibly also rage). Next round prone and sneak attack without needing to reckless.

It will be really cool at barb 5/rogue 3 were you can use your bonus action as a help action with reach of 30ft.

"Graps guy and starts stabbing him in the gut while yelling to allies 'I got this one just go take care of him over there'"

Also plays into Conans journey from savage to sellsword into savvy king.

[clash]

Feats aside, the average damage difference between a rapier and a great axe is only 2 per attack or with extra attack 4 damage per turn. Not really very notable. It's only once gwm is being used that the damage disparity becomes more than that. I wouldn't worry too much. Gwm is not required to be effective particularly when barbarian damage normally caps out with extra attack and rogue levels keep scaling the damage the whole time.

As a comparison a barbarian 10 with gwm will likely do 1d12+5+2+10 damage twice for 47 average damage.

A barbarian 5/ rogue 5 will deal 1d8+5+2 twice + 3d6 for an average of 33.5 damage. So the damage is lower but not as bad as it could be, your hit chance is going to be higher and you saved yourself a feat to spend on something else.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Hi everyone

I would like to try out a STR based rogue/barbarian multiclass build that uses reckless attack to grant sneak attacks.My understanding is for this to work I need to do STR based attacks with finesse weapons, so I guess that's not the best thing in the world damage wise and a pure barbarian may outdamage such a multiclass, but maybe there are ways to compensate? How about using this with a Double Bladed Scimitar with the Revenant Blade feat? Any advice would be welcome!

In terms of straight up damage potential yes you are correct about a pure barbarian. However, thing to consider is by multiclassing you are trading damage for something else. My advice is first to look at the subclasses for barbarian and rogue to determine not only what pairs nicely but also suits more to your play style. For instance, a totem barbarian with something like inquisitive rogue has pretty decent synergy of abilities for spying and investigation with sight. So look more than just the base class.

[da newt]

The option of a BA attack w/ Revenent Blade will help keep your damage up, but will not let you attack w/ the double scimitar while grappling, so you'll have to switch to a one handed weapon if you grapple.

Subclass picks would be fun - Mastermind for BA HELP, Swashbuckler for SA always, Bear Totem for resistance, Zealot for more Damage, Ancestral Guardian for keeping that one guy focused on you ...

Rogue and Barbarian aren't an OP combo, but they sure can be fun in a very feral sort of way, and very resilient.

Just for fun, see if your DM will allow the UA race Dhampir from Gothic Lineages ...

Elf or half elf will be handy for WIZ saves if you go Revenent, and with Tasha's floating stat bonuses and 1/2 elf to start 17 ST, 14 DX, 16 CO and 12 WIZ so you get to 18 ST w/ RB feat.

[Gignere]

As a comparison a barbarian 10 with gwm will likely do 1d12+5+2+10 damage twice for 47 average damage.

A barbarian 5/ rogue 5 will deal 1d8+5+2 twice + 3d6 for an average of 33.5 damage. So the damage is lower but not as bad as it could be, your hit chance is going to be higher and you saved yourself a feat to spend on something else.

If you went path of the beast for the barbarian subclass and use the claw option you can nearly make up all the damage difference. It would be 1d8 + 5 + 2 + 3d6 + (1d6 + 5 + 2) x2 which comes out to 42.5 and with better accuracy, so actual DPR maybe higher.

[Frogreaver]

Hi everyone

I would like to try out a STR based rogue/barbarian multiclass build that uses reckless attack to grant sneak attacks.My understanding is for this to work I need to do STR based attacks with finesse weapons, so I guess that's not the best thing in the world damage wise and a pure barbarian may outdamage such a multiclass, but maybe there are ways to compensate? How about using this with a Double Bladed Scimitar with the Revenant Blade feat? Any advice would be welcome!

Without GWM
(Barb 8) = 2d6+7 * 2 = 28
Rogue version
(Barb 5/Rogue 3) = 1d8+6 *2 + 2d6 sneak attack 21 + 2d6 sneak attack

Unless you add in GWM or PAM the Rogue version more or less surpasses the Barbarian version in damage and keeps gaining in damage as you further level.

One can always go zealot subclass for a bit more barbarian damage as well.

*Note - Damage wise 2 short swords are better off than a rapier for this Barbarian. You don't even need the dual wield feat because rage on turn 1 means you will be spending that turn pulling out sword 1, bonus action raging and then attacking. Turn 2 you will pull out the 2nd sword and attack with your action and TWF with your bonus action.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This can work, but dump strength and focus on dexterity. You'll be adding Dex to your AC, initiative, three skills and the save that typically avoids the most damage, as well as attack and damage rolls. Str only benefits attack and damage (redundant), Str saves (meh), and one skill (athletics). If you can use Dex for attack and damage, it's better to focus on that over Str.

[Greywander]

This can work, but dump strength and focus on dexterity. You'll be adding Dex to your AC, initiative, three skills and the save that typically avoids the most damage, as well as attack and damage rolls. Str only benefits attack and damage (redundant), Str saves (meh), and one skill (athletics). If you can use Dex for attack and damage, it's better to focus on that over Str.
I think the issue is that Reckless Attack requires you to make the attack using STR. The whole point of a barb/rogue multiclass is using Reckless Attack to get advantage any time you want so that you always qualify for Sneak Attack. And, of course, the attack needs to hit to deal any damage at all. Dumping STR is a bad idea, you'd be much better off abandoning a barb/rogue multiclass and finding a different way of getting advantage on your attacks.

I will say that I think it matter what split you're doing. Something like barb 3/rogue X will get most of their damage from Sneak Attack, so the weapon you use is irrelevant. A measly difference of 2 damage or so between a rapier and a greatsword is negligible compared to the number of d6s you're rolling for Sneak Attack. If you're leaning more into barbarian, then it might be something worth considering, but I wouldn't waste a feat just to be able to use a slightly stronger weapon. You're much better off grabbing something like Mobile so you can BA dash out of range after attacking without provoking OAs. Or Sentinel, to force enemies to attack you or else take a Sneak Attack OA from you (which combos nicely with the damage reduction from Rage).

Honestly, while Reckless Attack is interesting, there are other and probably better ways of qualifying for Sneak Attacks. If you're going to dip into barbarian, I would try to leverage their other features as well, especially Rage. Almost every barbarian subclass gets some kind of feature at 3rd level that enhances their rage, so look for one that combos well with rogue. Oh yeah, and your DEX saves will be off the charts thanks to getting both Evasion and Danger Sense, so friendly fire from AoEs isn't much of a concern, either; use that to your advantage, too.

[Dork_Forge]

One of the players in my Tier 3 game is a Barbarian (Bear totem) 7 and Rogue (Swashbuckler) 5, he two weapon fights leveraging his Rage bonus and maximising his chances of landing Sneak. Since he is a Swashbuckler he usually has Sneak without even needing to Reckless and gaining it in the times he doesn't is often his chief motivation for using Reckless at all.

He does a lot of damage, the comination of resistance and Uncanny Dodge (with temp hp from the Glamour Bard) makes him incredibly hard to put down conventionally on top of that. It also means that he can effectively skirmish whenever he pleases, since he has 40ft movement (Barbarian) and the benefits of disengage on attacked enemies (swash).

It's a good combo that ends up in a surprisingly versatile character.

Edit: For reference he maxed Str and has a +2 Dex (medium armor and advantage on initiative rolls)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think the issue is that Reckless Attack requires you to make the attack using STR.

Ok, I completely overlooked that it can only be used for Str-based attacks. I've only ever seen Barbarian in play once and the character was rather traditional.

I'll agree though that you're better off finding another source of advantage in this case, Dex is just so much better than Str. Unless you can make all three physical stats high, like if you're rolling and get something amazing, or maybe a Triton with the Tasha's ability bonus rearrangement and go 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8.

[Dork_Forge]

Ok, I completely overlooked that it can only be used for Str-based attacks. I've only ever seen Barbarian in play once and the character was rather traditional.

I'll agree though that you're better off finding another source of advantage in this case, Dex is just so much better than Str. Unless you can make all three physical stats high, like if you're rolling and get something amazing, or maybe a Triton with the Tasha's ability bonus rearrangement and go 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8.

You don't need Dex to be that high, the Barbarian class has built in things to compensate for middling Dex:

-Advantage on Dex saves (against hazards you can see)

-Advantage on initiative

-Medium armor and shield proficiency

[Wasp]

Thanks! I was thinking about this build

Bear Totem Barbarian 5 / Swashbuckler Rogue 5+
Custom Elven lineage (+2 Strength, Darkvision, Sentinel)
Starting STR 17 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 8
Revenant Blade (STR)
Expertise (Athletics, Perception)

What other ASI uses would be best? And how do I tackle the danger of this char being turned through charm etc?

[Greywander]

What other ASI uses would be best? And how do I tackle the danger of this char being turned through charm etc?
I would drop Revenant Blade and pick up Resilient (WIS) instead. Use a rapier and a shield instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The damage difference with between the rapier and double-bladed scimitar is negligible, and while you can't do a BA attack you have other things you can use your BA for, and the shield makes you tankier. If you want something to use your BA on, consider Shield Master, it will make you that much stickier by limiting enemy movement, and possibly benefit allies by giving them advantage on attacks against that target.

[Dork_Forge]

I would drop Revenant Blade and pick up Resilient (WIS) instead. Use a rapier and a shield instead of a double-bladed scimitar. The damage difference with between the rapier and double-bladed scimitar is negligible, and while you can't do a BA attack you have other things you can use your BA for, and the shield makes you tankier. If you want something to use your BA on, consider Shield Master, it will make you that much stickier by limiting enemy movement, and possibly benefit allies by giving them advantage on attacks against that target.

Personally I'd drop the DBS for two light weapons, maximising your number of attacks allows you to leverage your Rage damage bonus and Swashbuckler disengage feature (and if you're really unlucky, a third attempt at Sneak).

[DarknessEternal]

Personally I'd drop the DBS for two light weapons, maximising your number of attacks


Double bladed scimitar already comes with a better bonus action attack than two weapon fighting if you're allowed to use two hands all the time.

Also, every rogue subclass provides nearly guaranteed ways of enabling sneak attack. The only reason to use reckless attack would be increase your hit and crit chances. And, the mechanically better way to do this just uses Elven Accuracy, not strength, and all the millions of ways to otherwise get advantage to hit.

[Tvtyrant]

Hi everyone

I would like to try out a STR based rogue/barbarian multiclass build that uses reckless attack to grant sneak attacks.My understanding is for this to work I need to do STR based attacks with finesse weapons, so I guess that's not the best thing in the world damage wise and a pure barbarian may outdamage such a multiclass, but maybe there are ways to compensate? How about using this with a Double Bladed Scimitar with the Revenant Blade feat? Any advice would be welcome!

The easy bake way at low levels is to play a Tortle, giving you a decent AC built in. AC19 at level 1 with a shield, dump dex and max strength.

[Dork_Forge]

Double bladed scimitar already comes with a better bonus action attack than two weapon fighting if you're allowed to use two hands all the time.

-You need a feat to make it eligible for Sneak at all, that's a substantial investment for little proft.
-If you need your offhand (to Grapple or something) then you can just sheathe/drop your offhand weapon and maintain your main two attacks. With the DBS you need to entirely switch weapons.



Also, every rogue subclass provides nearly guaranteed ways of enabling sneak attack.

That is far from true.



The only reason to use reckless attack would be increase your hit and crit chances.

Or if you have disadvantage.


And, the mechanically better way to do this just uses Elven Accuracy, not strength, and all the millions of ways to otherwise get advantage to hit.


Elven Accuracy is not an answer in and of itself and it locks you down to being an Elf. Reckless is the easiest way to get advantage in the game, you literally just declare you're doing it, that's why it comes at a high price.

[JellyPooga]

This is by far my favourite multiclass to play, but the focus here is slightly off. Leveraging Reckless Attack to get Sneak Attacks is a nice side effect of the multiclass, but it's shouldn't be the focus; it's not a damage build (even though it's competetive without having to invest anything further in it), it's a melee control build. Here's why;

1) Expertise (Athletics) + Rage Advantage on Strength checks makes you a singularly effective grappler. For this, you want to have a free hand, so a focused TWF build is out. As a One-hander build, you have the flexibility to use an off-hand weapon (with the bonus damage from Rage to tackle weak, low-HP mooks OR for the increase in accuracy to land Sneak Attack) if need be, or a Shield (for AC) or as mentioned, you can Grapple. Stay flexible; This is the Way. It's not like you have any in-built class features that particularly enhance any one style, so you might as well take advantage of whichever one suits the situation.

2) Rage Resistance to damage, plus Uncanny Dodge and Evasion puts you in a position where incoming damage can be shrugged off. This means AC isn't so much of an issue and the foe you're grappling attacking you is the game plan; better they attack your efficient HP than your squishy friends. It also lets your friendlies drop AoE on your position...which should be surrounded by as many enemies as possible, to increase your chances of A) being attacked and B) getting Opportunity Attacks.

3) Sentinel, baby. It's the only Feat you should be thinking about, or at least the first one. The additional protection is affords your companions, encouraging foes to attack you, by having punishing OA's is gold standard stuff, but more importantly it locks down foes trying to escape you. The second Feat you should be considering is Mobile, to get you where you need to be (in the middle of the pack) as quickly and efficiently as possible (it also lets friendlies drop area control effects that impose difficult terrain on your position without inconveniencing you).

4) Whip it. Seriously. Use a Whip. It's Finesse for Sneak Attack, One handed for grappling and more importantly has Reach, letting you dictate who you attack, not your opponents. The difference in damage between a Whip and a Rapier is...wait for it...a whole, entire 2pts on average. The worst thing about a whip is having to roll d4's more often than you're probably used to, but I advise investing in a 12-sided one for the pleasure of not having to roll one of those spikey little devils...sorry, got distracted there...anyways, yeah. Rage damage starts off compensating that 2 point difference from the moment you take your first Barbarian level and when you add Sneak Attack, you're already at about the same damage output as your vanilla, everyday Greatsword. This is at level 2 (before GWM or PAM commonly come into play and before Extra Attack); (1d4+1d6+Str+2) = 8+Str vs. (2d6+Str+2) = 9+Str. As I said, though, this isn't a damage build; you will fall behind other builds that are more focused and better suited to it (bearing in mind that as a multiclass build, you're delaying features like Extra Attack; falling behind in DPR is inevitable), but you won't fall too far behind that you'll really notice it and you'll be angling for gnarly Sneak Attack OA's which will boost your comparative DPR and every now and then you'll get a crit and boost it further (Sneak Attack crits are super satisfying). If you really want that extra 2 damage, you can also carry a Rapier as well; it's not like either is going to put you over your carry capacity. IMO, though, Reach is worth waaaay more than 2 (average) damage.

5) You're a Barbarian, Harry. It's definitely a Str-focused build to benefit from Rage damage and Reckless (when you feel you need it), as well as for grappling. Spring for Dex: Medium Armour, because why the hell not? Pump Con for being bullet-proof, Wisdom high enough so you don't get chumped out because of a crappy Perception score and Charisma investment is nice for being Intimidatin'. Int...no. Or to put it another way:

Str: All of it, Dex: 14, Con: All of it, Int: Who cares?, Wis: The rest, Cha: To taste

I also recommend...
Lvl.1: Barbarian (Save profs, slightly more HP, Rage)
Lvl.2-6: Rogue (Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge)
Lvl.7-10: Barbarian (Extra Attack)
Lvl.11+: Rogue (all the Rogue goodies, Sneak Attack)

"But JP..." I hear you ask "why delay Extra Attack until level 10 if you're recommending grappling?" Well, young padawan, it's because this isn't a damage build. Yes, it's nice to be able to grapple and attack in the same round, but if you wanted to deal damage, you skip the grapple and just attack; grappling doesn't help you hit or increase your damage, so why would you grapple if that's your goal? Another commonly espoused tactic is grappling and then knocking someone prone to lock them in place, but again, if you want to knock someone down, just do that. When you're grappling, you want to grab them, spring for Cunning Action: Dash and haul that mutha to where you want them to be; preferably surrounded by a bunch of your mates, who have big sticks (and probably Extra Attack, so they can knock them down for you if you really want them on the ground...never forget that it's a team game). Now, assuming you want a multiclass build that gets off the ground as early as possible, Extra Attack comes online at level 5 at the earliest, at which point, you're not multiclassed, of course and therefore not benefitting from any of the synergy of the build; you may as well play the character as a run-of-the-mill Barbarian up to that point. The Grapple-Dash guy, on the other hand, comes online at level 3 (Bar 1/Rog 2) and has you taking advantage of the Athletics synergy and Sneak Attack bonus damage (not to mention the additonal skill proficiency and Expertise); you're game experience is very much one of a multiclassed build from that much earlier point. After that, you're really angling for your first Feat, so getting Rogue to 4 at character level 5 is your next priority and Uncanny Dodge at CL:6 is too good to pass up. You also happen to pick up Fast Hands along the way; a significant element of this control build. The alternative of aiming for Extra Attack ASAP is to delay Sentinel until level 6 and Fast Hands until level 8...and why would you do that in favour of a feature that increases your damage output, when damage isn't the primary focus of your build?

ASI/Feats
Lvl.5: Sentinel
Lvl.9: Mobile
Lvl.13/15/17: Whatever. Str? Con? At this level, Magic Items and other factors may dictate what you'll want or need, so don't sweat planning this far ahead, IMO.

6) Subclasses. I'm going to go ahead and say I've personally had a blast with a Thief Rogue/Wolf Totem Barbarian build.

Thief for improved athleticism, UMD (very late), but mostly for Fast Hands. I could write an essay on Fast Hands, but the short version is that it's an additional control element, whether you're using personal equipment like ball-bearings, torches and traps, or you're manipulating terrain like doors and furniture. The advantage on Strength checks from Rage also plays into this for manipulating super-heavy objects as a bonus action (we're talking examples like turning over hundred-person banqueting tables and lifting portcullis gates and still being able to get another Action in on your turn). NB - this aspect relies heavily on GM buy-in to your build as it involves including descriptive elements (like furniture) for you to interact with. Be sure to discuss this with them before commiting to it, or you won't get the most out of it.

Wolf Totem is party dependent; if you're the only melee guy, you're not going to get as much out of Wolf as you would a different Totem or Barbarian subclass. If, on the other hand, you have another Rogue in the party, they'll love you being a Wolf and everyone else making attack rolls will appreciate the free advantage, which you'll be providing by doing something you were going to do anyways (i.e. stand next to enemies). Wolf Totem is also a great way to improve the accuracy of summons and other minions or followers that might otherwise suffer from low to-hit modifiers or lack the incentive or capability to generate their own advantage. Wolf Totem also ties in well to the grappling aspect of the build; if you're grappling, you don't need to fuss about knocking them down to grant advantage because Wolf is doing it for you (also tying in to my previous commentary about why Extra Attack isn't a big focus for this build).

Anyways, this is a build I've had personal experience with and it's been, by far, the most enjoyable one I've had the pleasure of playing in actual play. It's flexible and versatile, giving good return on all features at just about every level of play, allows a great degree of interactivity with the world, is a good team-player as well as being more than comptetent solo. Moreover, it's a build that makes you feel powerful and competent; you have big modifiers, roll lots of dice and do more stuff all the time; you might not be the character that does the most damage or solves all the puzzles, but you'll help everyone else do all those things and be involved in just about every aspect of play.

[Spartan_MD]

@JellyPooga

I had a blast using a similar build using a mountain dwarf for STR and CON and wielding a short sword and hand axe. DM allowed hand axe to apply sneak attack damage. Versatile as I could fling my axe when out of melee or rage and use twF while in melee.

[da newt]

The easiest way to shore up your WIZ save is to play an Elf or 1/2 Elf (with Tasha's move your ASIs around rule, 1/2 elf is great and all the skillz). Another option is RES WIZ feat.

I'm a big fan of the Revenent Blade feat (you get so much with it), but it will make grappling involve a weapon swap.

Mobile is nice, I like Alert, and Tough is always an option.



For a grapple focused build, I still think Dhampir would be fun (bite and spider climb with grapple - so cool).

[Verble]

@JellyPooga

That's a really interesting build, especially because my table has house rules that whips do a d6(still no one uses them). I'll do some looking at subclasses but this is a great breakdown of an interesting build

Any thoughts on alternate rogue subclasses? Looking at mastermind or swashbuckler.

[JellyPooga]

@JellyPooga

That's a really interesting build, especially because my table has house rules that whips do a d6(still no one uses them). I'll do some looking at subclasses but this is a great breakdown of an interesting build

Any thoughts on alternate rogue subclasses? Looking at mastermind or swashbuckler.

Thanks! Like I said, it's a favourite of mine.

RE: Swashbuckler.
It's a trap! No, seriously, Swashbuckler isn't that great for this build (or for many melee Rogues, but that's another argument). Let's take a look at it;
Fancy Footwork: This build isn't a skirmisher and while free Disengage is better than Bonus Action Disengage, you ideally don't want to be disengaging regularly. This feature is also replicated by Mobile, which you mostly want for the speed boost and Dash synergy. This feature is undesirable and eventually redundant. Pass.
Rakish Audacity: Everyone swoons over this one but frankly, if you can't generate Sneak Attacks without this, you ain't Rogue'n. Seriously, just "having a friend" will do, let alone any of the myriad other ways. It also runs counter to your design goal with this build, which is ideally to try and keep enemies bunched together on your position instead of going after your squishy friends. I know there's nothing in the build that forces them to do so, but being an idiot that runs directly into the middle of a pack encourages them to focus fire on you; mission accomplished, but Swashbuckler isn't doing you any favours here. Charisma is a tertiary Ability Score for this build, so the Initiative boost is nice, but nothing to shout about.
Panache: This is (condescendingly) nice. It fits right in to the builds modus operandi for sure...buuuut, once again, whilst you can be good at Persuasion with Expertise, Charisma is not going to be your best stat and it also takes an Action to use, but is cancelled by friendly attacks and spells; this typically means you're using a big chunk of your turn to impose a minor de-buff that will end if your friend helps. It's really not a great combat ability for its level and this build will not be getting it until level 14(!), making it even less attractive. The charm effect is ok, but again comes very late. Too late, in my opinion.
Elegant Manoeuvre: Advantage of Acrobatics is nice, but Barbarian has been giving you Advantage on Strength checks since level 1. Not a great lvl.18 feature.
Master Duellist: This build doesn't get it.

RE: Mastermind
I like Mastermind. It leans into the Rogue as a non-combat entity, but unfortunately is a little on the weak side. Let's take a look;
Master of Intrigue: I love this. Bonus tool and language proficiencies are nice and the mimicry feature is wonderfully useful...in super-niche cases. Which is a bit of a theme going forward; features that you probably won't use much, if at all.
Master of Tactics: This is the reason you Mastermind. It's a totally solid feature and one of the only ones the Mastermind will use regularly. Unfortunately, our build is already a bit tight for Bonus Actions; Rage is a predominant one, but so is Dash for grapples and TWF for mook-mopping. Not only that, but if this build is ideally in the thick of things, so it doesn't need the 30ft range on that help action. If it's a choice between Fast Hands and this, the latter has synergy with the rest of the build and nice as it is, this doesn't. Good ability, but not great on this particular build.
Insightful Manipulator: I want to like this ability, but let's face it...it's pretty trash. Super GM dependant and doesn't really tell you much, if anything, of use. I mean, if you haven't worked out where you stand after a minute of talking to an NPC...stand aside, you're in the wrong job buddy.
Misdirection: Ooohhhohoho...now we're talking. This is almost good enough for this build to take Mastermind solely for it. It does precisely what this build wants to do. Also for our build, though, it comes super-late. So maybe if I was playing this build starting at high level I might go for it, but otherwise the other features just aren't enough to make me want it bad enough.
Soul of Deceit: Build doesn't get it, but like most Mastermind features, it's way too niche and/or weak to be useful. I mean compare this to Thief's Reflexes. The difference is stark.

RE: Assassin
I'm not going to break this one down too much, I think we're all familiar with the Assassins failings and it's boons. To be succinct;
- Bonus profs are "nice"
- Assassinate is extra damage, but we're not a damage build
- Infiltration Expertise takes too long and is replicated in its entirety by owning and using a Forgery kit and Disguise kit.
- Imposter takes too long and really doesn't do anything a Charisma check doesn't.
For this build, Assassin is a hard pass. There's no real synergy with Barbarian unless we change the multiclass split from Bar 5/Rog 15 to Rog 3/Bar 17, a build in which we'd be angling to synergise Brutal Critical with Assassinate, but that's a very different build to the one I'm talking about.

RE: Arcane Trickster
So. A lot of folks claim the Fast Hands is redundant compared to Mage Hand Legerdemain. Those people are wrong. MHL can't do half of what Fast Hands can and the Barbarian multiclass showcases the difference; namely, MHL can't Use an Object and that's a big deal. That aside, Arcane Trickster is arguably the single best Rogue subclass. The versatility offered by spellcasting, both in and out of combat, added to features that definitely ride the crest of the power-wave makes the AT a real powerhouse. Yes, even for a Barbarian multiclass build. Rage doesn't last forever and has limited uses to boot, so the spellcasting offered by AT is a welcome piece of additional endurance and protection for when you aren't hulking out. I haven't tried AT on this kind of build, but I can definitely see it working, perhaps even better than Thief. Particularly if you cherry pick a few choice spells that keep your enemies close, generating your own difficult terrain, etc. Biggest failing? Int.

[Gignere]

Thanks! Like I said, it's a favourite of mine.

RE: Arcane Trickster
So. A lot of folks claim the Fast Hands is redundant compared to Mage Hand Legerdemain. Those people are wrong. MHL can't do half of what Fast Hands can and the Barbarian multiclass showcases the difference; namely, MHL can't Use an Object and that's a big deal. That aside, Arcane Trickster is arguably the single best Rogue subclass. The versatility offered by spellcasting, both in and out of combat, added to features that definitely ride the crest of the power-wave makes the AT a real powerhouse. Yes, even for a Barbarian multiclass build. Rage doesn't last forever and has limited uses to boot, so the spellcasting offered by AT is a welcome piece of additional endurance and protection for when you aren't hulking out. I haven't tried AT on this kind of build, but I can definitely see it working, perhaps even better than Thief. Particularly if you cherry pick a few choice spells that keep your enemies close, generating your own difficult terrain, etc. Biggest failing? Int.

You don’t need int for an AT, just avoid anything with a save. Most illusion spells doesn’t even allow a save unless it’s interacted with. Shadowblade doesn’t care about your int and neither does mirror image. So just choose wisely on the spell and you can play an 8 int AT.

[JellyPooga]

You don’t need int for an AT, just avoid anything with a save. Most illusion spells doesn’t even allow a save unless it’s interacted with. Shadowblade doesn’t care about your int and neither does mirror image. So just choose wisely on the spell and you can play an 8 int AT.

Whilst this is technically true, the same can be said of the Wizard, but no-one is saying that a no-Int Wizard is worth a damn. If you're playing an Arcane Trickster, you're going to want at least a respectable Intelligence. If nothing else, Magical Ambush is an incredibly potent feature, but only if you have a decent-ish Int. Without the Int to back it up, or if you only have/use spells that don't require Int, it's a non-feature and you're missing out on the potential. Even without Magical Ambush, avoiding spells that require Int is avoiding some very powerful spells.

So yeah, for a MAD build like this one it might be tempting to play that Int 8 AT, but at the same time a lot of the draw of going for AT in the first place is its versatility and by dumping Int, you restrict that element, making AT a much less attractive option. Not saying it's not an option, only that it's not an attractive one in this particular case; most of the non-Int reliant spells available to an AT are combat focused and this build already has a lot of combat options from multiclassing Barbarian. Unless you're literally just taking AT to shore up the longevity of the limited Rages per day, I wouldn't recommend it over Thief, which has active synergy as opposed to the lateral versatility and endurance of AT.