Tell me some Sorcerer strategies!

[jaappleton]

I’m creating a new character and I’d like some tricks from people that have played the class before.

Hobgoblin Favored Soul Sorcerer. Know that trope of the Paladin taking the orphaned creature to the temple after slaying its parents? That orphan is my character, the Favored Soul of Lathander.

I played a Sorc only once before, in a one shot. So my experience in playing them is quite limited.

Starting at 6th level.

Since Hobgoblins are naturally proficient in Light Armor, I used my 4th level feat to get Moderately Armored so I can use Medium Armor and a shield. AC of 18.

Hobgoblins Saving Face paired with Favored of the Gods leaves me a couple ways of helping with saving throws.

I grabbed Twinned and Quickened for my Metamagic.

I’d like to fulfill a Controller / Blaster role. Any recommendations on where to go from here?

[Avonar]

Sorcerers are great for single target buff/debuffs that you can twin. Haste is the classic one, but with Divine Soul you can also get things like Shield of Faith. I played a Divine Soul sorcerer for a little and it was great for spell-slot efficiency. That cure wounds feels a lot better to double the amount of healing it puts out. Enemies Abound is another fun one for large groups of foes to sow a bit of chaos. It can also work for things like Hold Person where you can do multi-target at higher levels, or twin it for the price of a lower spell slot.

If you are interested in the blasting side, a twinned Guiding Bolt sounds very juicy. Two hits, two lots of advantage. Also, Tasha's Mind Whip to deal out some damage to a couple of foes and limit their actions for a round.

The only thing I recommend is be careful if you have to level up mid-game, those two spell lists are a lot to go through to find a single spell!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Twin is best used for a concentration spell that only has one target, like Haste or Suggestion, or otherwise single-target spells like Dispel Magic or Revivify. Plenty of crowd control spells can target multiple creatures when upcast or hit an area by default, so how useful this is really depends on your spell selection. You may be using your concentration for Spirit Guardians every fight, which makes this less useful.

I'm not a fan of Quicken. It's useful if you need to disengage or otherwise spend your action but still cast a spell, but you're still limited to using your action/reaction for nothing but cantrips during a turn when you cast a bonus action spell.

I'd go with Heighten, it's pretty good for screwing over an opponent with a powerful spell that doesn't automatically allow secondary saves (Suggestion, Bestow Curse, Banishment).

Seeking Spell from Tasha's allows you to retry a missed attack roll with a spell, so an otherwise wasted spell/action may end up succeeding after all for just 2 sorcery points. The other metamagic option in Tasha's is also pretty good.

Consider taking the feat Metamagic Adept to get two more metamagic options. Otherwise you'll only know two, or three at 10th, or four at 17th. Spending a feat to make that four, or five at 10th, or six at 17th basically allows you to get everything you would want.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hobgoblin Favored Soul Sorcerer. Know that trope of the Paladin taking the orphaned creature to the temple after slaying its parents? That orphan is my character, the Favored Soul of Lathander.
Which Edition Are You Playing? In Xanathar's we have the Divine Soul. Last time I played a Favored Soul was in 3.5e well over a decade ago. :smallwink:


Starting at 6th level.

Since Hobgoblins are naturally proficient in Light Armor, I used my 4th level feat to get Moderately Armored so I can use Medium Armor and a shield. AC of 18. Who else is in your party? Do you need to play 'the martial' or is that thematic based on being a hobgoblin?

I grabbed Twinned and Quickened for my Metamagic.

I’d like to fulfill a Controller / Blaster role. Any recommendations on where to go from here?
Since you are a hobgoblin, and raised by a paladin, I'll guess that "Lawful" fits your origin story, which leads you to bless. That spell is good from level 1 to many, in my experience of using it as a cleric and seeing it still in use in late tier 3 from our Tempest Cleric. Take it. Your party mates will be glad that you did.

Controller:
(1) not blasty, but Magic Missile is for when You Have To Hit Someone Right Now! (Break their con, if you can)
(2) I have found web to be a fine spell.
(3) I have found Hypnotic Pattern to be surprisingly good at battefield control against groups.
(4) won't comment on Scorching ray beyond: some days it's da bomb, some days it's da bust. :smallconfused:
(5) I get the idea that you want to be near the thick of things.
In that case, Spirit Guardians will be useful until your concentration drops. (Yeah, all sorcerers take shield, I get it) Mook Mower.
But against a big boss bag of HP, might not be what you want.
That fact that it slows enemies down has some neat side effects. If someone knocks them prone first they have to deal with get up and move and face the half speed condition inflicted by SG.
Again, versus crowds it's hard not to love this spell if your serious front liners can provide you with a buffer.
(6) Hold Person: if you will be fighting a lot of humanoids, this is a fine spell and a decent one to twin. But if you are not fighting humanoids, this one sits there in the corner, sulking.
(7) At 7th level IMO Banishment is a must. Defeat the enemy in detail ... and at that point with a narrow spell list, I'd dump hold person for good.

Blaster: you are on your own there, too many choices between cleric and sorcerer list.
(If you don't take fireball, what kind of sorcerer are you, really? :smallbiggrin:)

Notable spell since you can twin it: Guiding Bolt: when it hits, it hits hard and someone gets to follow up with advantage on an attack. The longer I play the more I appreciate that spell. I can see a twinned Guiding Bolt being very handy in some situations, but I've only ever used it with a cleric.

Cantrips: not gonna go down that rat hole beyond this: so many great choices between cleric list and sorcerer list, but Toll the Dead, Fire bolt, Sacred Flame (situationally useful, it has its drawback due to the save) and get at least one utility cantrip. I suggest guidance if you are a support, and mage hand is so darned hard to turn down. Many uses. You don't need light. Ray of Frost is a popular choice among all of the people I have played with.

Who else is in your party?

Our warlock recently began toying with summon shadowspawn so far, our group likes it.
When you get a chance, consider summon celestial.(at level 9)
As to summon aberration (@ level 7) how can you not love summoning your own little beholder or your own little slaad? :smallbiggrin:

Ok, fine, drop a wall of fire on them when you get to fourth level spells.
It's a crowd pleaser. :smallcool:

EDIT:
Sorry, last point on blaster. Take another look at careful metamagic is you are going to be a blaster who uses a lot of AoE spells. Might be a better choice than Quicken.

[Chronic]

Not a fan of quicken either, I prefer empowered for blasting, less burst but way more efficient damage wise.
Usually I would say subtle, but there is two thing you should take into account. First your playing divine soul, which makes good use of twinned spell. I like twinned in general but rarely take it early, but with the cleric spell list it's definitely better. Second, subtle is amazing if social encounters and sneaking around and shenanigans is a thing in your games. In mine it happens all the time and my party is both glad I have it and sorry they do not since it opens up so many possibilities.

As usual with the sorcerer, crafting your spell list is the most important and difficult thing. To really exploit it not only do you have to consider what role you want to have, but also how your chosen metamagic will impact the spells. Good luck to you!

Edit to expand on metamagic options, be mindful of the sorcery point cost, twinned spells and heightened spells can gut your reserves very quickly, empowered and subtful are cheap in comparison. Quicken is middle of the pack.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I played a Divine Soul for a few months and quite liked it. I was more of a healer/buffer but I think a lot of the recommendations here are good all-around Sorceror advice. I'd particularly second Twinned and Subtle for the reasons already given (Subtle Enhance Ability is the best social spell). Bless is also good - if I had the spell slots to spare it was a good general-purpose spell to enter a hostile area with. As with most casters, remember to select a mix of Concentration and non-Concentration spells.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I feel like the build you've suggested doesn't really lean towards a blaster.
I played a Dragon (Fire) Sorc with Empower and Quicken. (I also took a level of fighter for heavy armor, etc). With that I got extra damage from my 6th level Dragon ability, the Empower, and (if I wanted to Quicken) I had a blade cantrip to tack on, also with the Dragon Sorc bonus damage. My empowered fireballs averaged 40% over average with 1 SP spent, so with no ability to pump the damage, I don't see yours as a blaster focused build.
As others have said Quicken isn't cheap, though a lot of the time it does get used to do things other than casting a cantrip. You can still Dodge or Dash and Cast a Leveled spell, which sometimes is amazing.

[Chronic]

As long as you have empowered and blasting spell, you are a good blaster, draconic lineage is just cherry on top.

[Snails]

Twin is best used for a concentration spell that only has one target, like Haste or Suggestion, or otherwise single-target spells like Dispel Magic or Revivify. Plenty of crowd control spells can target multiple creatures when upcast or hit an area by default, so how useful this is really depends on your spell selection. You may be using your concentration for Spirit Guardians every fight, which makes this less useful.

I am trying out a Sorceror for the first time, starting at level 1, as a Divine Soul.

I was initially skeptical of Twin, but I am now seeing how wrong I was. Twinning a useful first level spell is a huge Action Economy and spell slot win, at an affordable Sorcery Point cost. Twinned Guiding Bolt looks fabulous for T1.

I think you are right about the optimal usage. For this low level character in a campaign that is not going past T2, anything above a 2nd level spell seems a little doubtful as a regular thing. Ah, but Haste OTOH would be worthwhile....


I'm not a fan of Quicken. It's useful if you need to disengage or otherwise spend your action but still cast a spell, but you're still limited to using your action/reaction for nothing but cantrips during a turn when you cast a bonus action spell.

I'd go with Heighten, it's pretty good for screwing over an opponent with a powerful spell that doesn't automatically allow secondary saves (Suggestion, Bestow Curse, Banishment).


One can do a Poor Man's Heighten with Quicken and Mind Sliver. And Mind Sliver can be Twinned. Is two maybe -1d4s as good a one Maximize when working with an AoE? Not sure.

[jaappleton]

I see what everyone is saying about Quickened. Probably going to trade it out to either Empowered or Heightened. Although that one from Tasha’s that lets me reroll an attack roll is quite tempting, too. But aside from Guiding Bolt, I don’t know how many spells I’d need it for with my current level.

In the one shot where I’d played a Sorcerer prior, it was 11th level and I quickened a Sunbeam, allowing me to use my Action to blast it again. While a nice combo, I don’t see too many spells on the list to do it with at my current level (Vampiric Touch is about it, really, unless I wanted to utilize SCAG cantrips more. Which I don’t. I want to be near the back, but.... not too squishy)

I went Moderately Armored for a few reasons:

For one, only one other party member is utilizing a shield.

Swords Bard, TWF Drakewarden Ranger, 2H Vengeance Paladin, Longbow Rogue and Alchemist Artificer. Nobody but the Artificer would use a shield, and I feel like there’s a lot of amazing magical shields that go overlooked.

Secondly, I didn’t want to waste a spell slot on mage armor. Taking the feat nets me +1 Dex to bring that to a round number, and boosts my AC to a point where I feel I should be able to free up some spell slots that would have been spent on the Shield spell.

At level 8, I’m likely taking that Metamagic Adept feat. The 2 extra points alone is very much worth considering, when I take into account the cost of some Metamagic.

Right now I have seven spells, plus one from Divine Soul (torn between Bless and Cure Wounds):

Shield, Guiding Bolt, Shield of Faith
Tasha’s Mind Whip
Haste, Slow, Fireball

I see the merits of swapping Slow to Hypnotic Pattern, that’s an argument I see a lot.

I love Mind Whip as a level 2 spell. I can use it on a single boss enemy, to really slow them down action economy wise, and it’s great to Twin as well.

Shield of Faith is there to help shore up the front liners as a Twin for when I’m low on resources and can’t Haste.

[Ritorix]

As you adventure, pick up those spell scrolls!

Magic items can work with your metamagic in one of two ways. Either they are a "you cast a spell" item (most wands, spell scrolls) and you can twin/empower/etc depending on the spell. Or they are "a thing happens" magic items like a necklace of fireballs. For the latter you quicken your own spell first (cough, fireball), then use an action on the necklace of fireballs in the same round.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see the merits of swapping Slow to Hypnotic Pattern, that’s an argument I see a lot. It's a bit of a crap shoot, though Slow is really good when it lands. If you have to have just one, HP's advantage is that the creature just stands there if it fails a save. With Slow, they can still act. But, once damage is done, or shaken out of it, it's fight on for HP.

With Slow, your buddies don't have to think about "do I wake that one up or not" as they make action decisions.
If you only get one, Slow is very hard to argue against.

[jaappleton]

As you adventure, pick up those spell scrolls!

Magic items can work with your metamagic in one of two ways. Either they are a "you cast a spell" item (most wands, spell scrolls) and you can twin/empower/etc depending on the spell. Or they are "a thing happens" magic items like a necklace of fireballs. For the latter you quicken your own spell first (cough, fireball), then use an action on the necklace of fireballs in the same round.

......Iiiiiinteresting.

Oh, this I like.

One item I desperately want is the Wand of Paralysis, since it targets creatures and not Humanoids. A CON save with it is a little difficult but incredibly tempting.

[Ritorix]

......Iiiiiinteresting.

Oh, this I like.

One item I desperately want is the Wand of Paralysis, since it targets creatures and not Humanoids. A CON save with it is a little difficult but incredibly tempting.

Yeah so with the Paralysis wand, you use it first as your action, then walk next to them if it worked and do Quickened Scorching Ray or whatever attack spell you have. It will all crit since they are incapacitated and you are in melee range.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

On a divine soul blaster I didn't play mine for long but my favorite tactic was to ready a twinned hold person til after the enemies turn and then move up to the two targets and hit them with a twinned inflict wounds for an auto crit of 6d10 damage per creature and gives your entire team a full round of auto crit.

I'm not sure that DSS has enough in the control category to make it part of it's main purpose personally.

[Fable Wright]

I see the merits of swapping Slow to Hypnotic Pattern, that’s an argument I see a lot.

I love Mind Whip as a level 2 spell. I can use it on a single boss enemy, to really slow them down action economy wise, and it’s great to Twin as well.

Shield of Faith is there to help shore up the front liners as a Twin for when I’m low on resources and can’t Haste.

To paraphrase an argument from Treantmonk:

Hypnotic Pattern is best when you get a first strike. After things devolve into melee, if the party or the enemy engages quickly, it can be very difficult to place without friendly fire. Slow, though? Slow is selective-target. There's no risk of friendly fire, so it's always an option. You already have Fireball as an opening-salvo option that's difficult to place after melee ensues; I wouldn't double down with Hypnotic Pattern. Slow is probably the better option here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Slow is selective-target. There's no risk of friendly fire, so it's always an option. The 'selectable' target feature may be the final selling point on that, so if push comes to shove it's probably the better choice.

What I like about hypnotic pattern (use it as a bard) is that I can use it in non combat crowd control: want to disrupt a riot without killing the townsfolk? Hypnotic pattern puts a lot of them under the incapacitated category and since you have charmed them, you suggest that they head over there where the free pizza will be served in a few minutes ... or other non lethal stuff like that.

Since jaa is going more blaster, that may not fit as well as slow.

[meandean]

At 6th level, I'd opt for hypnotic pattern over slow. It'll be great for saving you from getting overrun by mooks. Slow gets better later in the game when creatures have more things they can do on their turn. The real power of the spell is that it strips the target down to one action (or bonus action) and one attack per turn. If all they're doing with their turn is attacking once anyway, the spell doesn't do nearly as much. You also tend to encounter more spellcasters as the game goes on, where it's also particularly useful.

[ImproperJustice]

Subtle Spell is a cheap and reliable meta magic.

Grappled or Underwater?
You can still cast.

Silenced?
You can still cast.

Wanna make somebody burst into flames and no one knows why or how it happened?

All thanks to Subtle Spell.
And the icing on the cake is you don’t have to worry about annoying Counterspells.

It world even better for illusions and enchantments, especially if you go out on a limb to grab skill expert / prodigy and expertise in Stealth.


For a simple blasting strategy:
Try effects that reatrain your targets like Web, Earthen Grasp, or Watery Sphere.

Know your enemies saves and target folks accordingly.
Then follow with the empowered blasty spell of your choice as they auto fail their dexterity save to avoid damage.


Also, bigger is not always better. Keep your party dynamics and adventure style in mind.
If the party is all melee types fighting in tight dungeon corridors you may get more mileage put of Tidal Wave (which also may knock a few guys prone for the heavy hitters), than you would fireball.


Lastly, Careful spell is better for the aforementioned control / restrain magics. Most have no effect if the save is successful so you can drop a control spell like Watery Sphere on your melee forerunner, ensuring them a successful save while restraining the opposition close to them, enabling them to unleash a better beat down.

[jaappleton]

This whole scenario of magic items that don’t actually cast spells has be super intrigued.

Necklace of Fireballs
Wand of Paralysis
What else?

[borg286]

Haste allows for using a magic item, which, I think, includes a scroll. While not sustainable, it may allow for some level 1 spells rather than cantrips.
Check out the aberrant mind sorlock build in my signature for a very well rounded sorcerer build.
Specifically a careful Hypnotic Pattern makes it a great blasting spell regardless of when your turn comes up.

[jojosskul]

Want to put in a good word for low level uses of quicken. It works well with Earthen Grasp, giving you two tries to hold someone if the first one fails. If the first one succeeds, you still have your action available to do something else or cast a cantrip.

Pyrotechnics is another good option. The main thing holding pyrotechnics back is the need for a source of non magical fire. Quicken allows you to use your action to light a candle/torch/camp fire (just carry candles with you and light them the old fashioned way) which may even count as an object interaction. Then action throw the candle where you want it and quicken pyrotechnics for some AOE blindness/concentration free fog cloud.

On the blasting side, quicken on Witch Bolt does the same thing as quicken on Sunbeam. But still probably not worth it since the action damage will never go above 1d12 even if upcast.

You're right that the only "this allows you to do a repeated action later" 3rd level spell is Vampiric Touch, which honestly with your medium armor and shield you might able to make ok use of if that's how you want to roll.

In just one more level, however, you get TWO great quicken options. Polymorph lets you turn yourself into a TRex/Giant Ape if need be AND attack that same turn when quickened. Watery Sphere lets you move the sphere the same turn potentially allowing you to target a ton more people that first round when quickened.

Sure two doesn't sound like a lot of great options, but keep in mind you have a low number of spells, and even though these are the options that work BEST with quicken, ALL of your action cast spells work with quicken if you need them to. Want to fireball and dash away? Quicken. Want to drop Spirit Guardians and then dodge the same turn? Quicken. Very few metamagics are usable with almost everything you cast, and Quicken is the best of them.

Definitely agree on grabbing metamagic adept as soon as you can though. Empowered is awesome if you want to blast.

[verbatim]

Since Sorcerer's already have CON save proficiency, if you ever need a half feat for your primary spellcasting stat (most other casters would consider Resilient) you may want to look at the Telekinetic feat from Tasha's. Being able to push willing allies and enemies who fail a save 5 feet is pretty strong for a class that often has a free bonus action.

[jaappleton]

What's the better combination:

Heightened metamagic on something you really need the enemy to fail the save against,

or

Mind Sliver + Quickened metamagic on that same spell?

I know that Heightened costs more, but (depending on the spell) leaves your bonus action available. However, when accounting for the cost, which route would you all consider to be better?

[Unoriginal]

What's the better combination:

Heightened metamagic on something you really need the enemy to fail the save against,

or

Mind Sliver + Quickened metamagic on that same spell?

I know that Heightened costs more, but (depending on the spell) leaves your bonus action available. However, when accounting for the cost, which route would you all consider to be better?

Depends how vulnerable to Mind Sliver the enemy is. It adds an Int save to resist, which could be a boon or another obstacle.

[Dark.Revenant]

What's the better combination:

Heightened metamagic on something you really need the enemy to fail the save against,

or

Mind Sliver + Quickened metamagic on that same spell?

I know that Heightened costs more, but (depending on the spell) leaves your bonus action available. However, when accounting for the cost, which route would you all consider to be better?

Heightened is usually better. Against DC 19, Mind Sliver guarantees failure on a -1 saving throw modifier, while heightening doesn't. Against the same DC, Mind Sliver starts to edge out Heightened when the saving throw modifier is +16 or higher. From +0 to +15, Heightened is better. The sweet spot is +8, where Heightened brings the failure chance from 50% to 75%, while Mind Sliver only brings it to 62.5%.

Also, Mind Sliver itself offers a saving throw, so it's only helpful if you need them to fail a save eventually, rather than right now.

[borg286]

If your DM is into wish lists you could ask if a Shadowfell shard (rare) is something he'd be likely I give you. This is like heighten on steroids.

[Frogreaver]

I’m creating a new character and I’d like some tricks from people that have played the class before.

Hobgoblin Favored Soul Sorcerer. Know that trope of the Paladin taking the orphaned creature to the temple after slaying its parents? That orphan is my character, the Favored Soul of Lathander.

I played a Sorc only once before, in a one shot. So my experience in playing them is quite limited.

Starting at 6th level.

Since Hobgoblins are naturally proficient in Light Armor, I used my 4th level feat to get Moderately Armored so I can use Medium Armor and a shield. AC of 18.

Hobgoblins Saving Face paired with Favored of the Gods leaves me a couple ways of helping with saving throws.

I grabbed Twinned and Quickened for my Metamagic.

I’d like to fulfill a Controller / Blaster role. Any recommendations on where to go from here?

Due to limited spells known you really have to figure out what you want to do in your typical combat. Expanding on that a bit, what is your go to opening spell in a single target situation. Ideas here include - Bless, Twin Haste, Magic Missile, quicken firebolt, flaming sphere, maximillian's earthen grasp. My top choices are Bless or Maximillian's. The next question is what is your go to opening spell in a multitarget situation? Ideas include - fireball, hypnotic patter, fear or slow. I'm leaning toward hypnotic pattern here.

When that is decided, is there any situations where your top choices fail to work. Creatures can be immune to hypnotic pattern. When that happens you want a backup. I would consider slow for this as it also has a decent use in some single enemy encounters as well. I think magic missile is nearly a must have as well. You can use it to help down single creatures faster and to bypass creatures resistances/immunities to your cantrips. After that it's defense and utility spells. Shield and healing word seem too good to pass up. Then it's really whatever you like for the last couple of spells. Tons of good choices remaining as well.

So I'm looking at something like:

Bless, Magic Missile, Shield, Healing Word
Levitate, misty step
Hypnotic Pattern, Slow

Metamagic is twin and probably empower. Empower comes in handy if you roll extremely low on cantrips. Twin is mostly for cantrips at this level. At level 7 you can get polymorph and then twin works exceptionally well with it. Later you will want heightened, but it's too costly in sorcerery points till level 10+.

[jaappleton]

If your DM is into wish lists you could ask if a Shadowfell shard (rare) is something he'd be likely I give you. This is like heighten on steroids.

Ooooooooh, I hadn't seen this!

Wow this is... Ooooh, I need this.

[PattThe]

Level one Sorcerer. Spellcasting race. Full martial for the other 5 levels.

[sophontteks]

Playing a shadow sorcerer again.

I mulch up most my low level spells for more darkness and hounds. Conversion for darkness has no loss, and it's basically greater invisibility that lasts 10 minutes. I cast it before battle. In battle I have blind/deaf, fireball, scorching ray, etc.

Hounds is for hold person/monster and sickening radiance.

Metamagic is subtle snd empowered. These are the most efficient metamagics. Efficiency shouldn't be underestimated.

Subtle is insane. I can cast phantasmal force on anyone without detection and create any illusion through it. This is my main non-combat power.

Enemies abound with subtle allows for assassinations in public spaces. Cast on someone and grab popcorn as they wildly attack everyone that passes them until they are arrested.

The favored soul is s tough sorcerer subclass. I don't recommend. But if you take it, their unique ability is extend spell metamagic with stuff like Aid. With a 16 hour duration you can cast it before a long rest, and it'll remain up another 8 hours.

With the larger spell lists, tashas sorcerers subclasses are the most noob-friendly. Abberant is easily the best sorcerer subclass.

[Kane0]

Are you familiar with this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqKxD-T0PP8)?

[Chronic]

With the larger spell lists, tashas sorcerers subclasses are the most noob-friendly. Abberant is easily the best sorcerer subclass.

I disagree with that, clockwork soul seems quite a bit more powerful to me.

[sophontteks]

I disagree with that, clockwork soul seems quite a bit more powerful to me.
I'd love to hear some of your ideas that make clockwork so much stronger. Their abilities are underwhelming to me. They aren't bad, but aberrant's are broken. I see them as more straightforward, but not coming close to the power an aberrant can bring.

An Aberrant sorcerer can telepathically communicate the verbal commands of things like modify memory and suggestion. All of their bonus spells are cast as if subtle spell meta-magic was applied at level 6. So none of them can ever be counterspelled, they can add other metamagics on top of subtle to them, and all of them can be used in the public eye without starting initiative or raising suspicion.

The most broken combo out of this: They can twin subtle modify memory without detection and basically re-write everyone's memories as they please. Twin subtle telekinesis is also a very strong way to break encounters before they begin.

[jaappleton]

I'd love to hear some of your ideas that make clockwork so much stronger. Their abilities are underwhelming to me. They aren't bad, but aberrant's are broken. I see them as more straightforward, but not coming close to the power an aberrant can bring.

An Aberrant sorcerer can telepathically communicate the verbal commands of things like modify memory and suggestion. All of their bonus spells are cast as if subtle spell meta-magic was applied at level 6. So none of them can ever be counterspelled, they can add other metamagics on top of subtle to them, and all of them can be used in the public eye without starting initiative or raising suspicion.

The most broken combo out of this: They can twin subtle modify memory without detection and basically re-write everyone's memories as they please. Twin subtle telekinesis is also a very strong way to break encounters before they begin.

I do agree that Aberrant is amazing, but only in the right hands.

I think Clockwork is a bit more straightforward. You get to mess with Advantage/Disadvantage, you get a heaping pile of dice to use to reduce damage, etc.

Aberrant Mind, in my opinion, is more powerful in the hands of a player that knows all the nuances of the rules, and can exploit them. I think its capable of doing that in all three pillars of the game because of that, while Clockworks features lean slightly more into combat. Exploit is a strong word here, because it implies something sinister, but I think you all get what I'm saying.

However, the concept of exploiting the rules and spells is kind of the whole appeal of the Sorcerer. Its what Metamagic does, it bends the rules. Twin makes single target spells target two, Empowered lets you reroll damage, etc.

[Snails]

I do agree that Aberrant is amazing, but only in the right hands.

I think Clockwork is a bit more straightforward. You get to mess with Advantage/Disadvantage, you get a heaping pile of dice to use to reduce damage, etc.

Aberrant Mind, in my opinion, is more powerful in the hands of a player that knows all the nuances of the rules, and can exploit them. I think its capable of doing that in all three pillars of the game because of that, while Clockworks features lean slightly more into combat. Exploit is a strong word here, because it implies something sinister, but I think you all get what I'm saying.

However, the concept of exploiting the rules and spells is kind of the whole appeal of the Sorcerer. Its what Metamagic does, it bends the rules. Twin makes single target spells target two, Empowered lets you reroll damage, etc.

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, but I see it slightly differently.

One of the fundamental weaknesses of the Sorcerer class is the restricted number of spells known, and this is actually more likely to be a problem for the less skillful player. The Aberrant Mind significantly loosens that barrier a way that is likely to help both novice and veteran alike. A lot. At least in the long term, assuming the player is willing to make even a slight effort in swapping out spells s/he does not use for ones that are more likely to be used.

Charm Person, Sleep, Hold Person, See Invisibility, Suggestion, Clairvoyance, Tongues are extremely useful spells which are tough to fit into the Sorcerer's personal list. Suddenly there is plenty of room for all of them, plus the basic blasty stuff, too.

That is a big tweak to the chassis of the Sorcerer class.