What is the appeal of prepared casting?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Aside from the fact that prepared casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Archivists, and similar classes) get or tend to get most spell levels one character level sooner than their prepared counterparts (Sorcerer, Psion, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, etc.), and having played prepared and spontaneous casters . Note that not all prepared casters have something close to a 1:1 spontaneous counterpart: Psions and Erudites aren't merely spontaneous, power point-based ("mana") Wizards, though they can use some similar abilities and sometimes fill similar roles. Warlocks aren't just Sorcerers who can use a small number of spells/spell-like abilities known per day but at will, and so on.

Having played various games (tabletop and video), the appeal of spontaneous casting is greater. It's more fun, it's what video gamers have come to expect, it's what WotC put into D&D 5e (sometimes with the ability to switch spell preps between days for spontaneous casting), and it's likely also easier to understand. I understand prepared Vancian casting as a legacy thing of D&D - and later Pathfinder and other D&D offshoots which also sorta included Dark Souls - and that WotC was experimenting with spontaneous casting starting with 3.0's Sorcerer. Maybe there's some niche satisfaction in realizing or/and telling others, "I told you that I was right to prepare/use X in Y situation."

EDIT:
To clarify, by prepared casting, I mean purely prepared casting instead of the mix of spontaneous casting (like with a Sorcerer) and prepared-plus-spontaneous casting (like with Pathfinder 1e's Arcanist or D&D 5e's prepared casters).

The question remains: What is the appeal of prepared casting?

Thankee!

[gijoemike]

Since you posted this in 3.X....


Spontaneous casters locked you into your spell selection for at least 3 full levels. Wizards and clerics got to switch out spells every single day. As a sorc you took fireball 2 levels ago. Lets hope you can fireball something today, because that is all you have for that spell. The wizard one day preps haste, the next fireball, the next dispel magic, the next .... See where this is going? At least the wizard has to have a copy in his/her spellbook. The cleric has true free reign.


Prepared casters have the ability to be flexible. And got that flexibility earlier.

[Kayblis]

Comparing both methods at face value, spontaneous casting is just better to play. You don't have to plan for 'maybes', you just use a slot to cast what you want. It's just stronger than prepared casting. That's why it has the drawbacks it does, you usually know a very very limited assortment of spells, while prepared doesn't care about that. Prepared casting lends itself to better campaign play, just because it doesn't have the strict 'spells known' restriction. That's also why many builds try to get some limited spontaneity to prepared casters, be it as a class feature like Spontaneous Conversion, or a feat like Uncanny Forethought. It's an attempt to get the best of both worlds.

So in short, the appeal of prepared casting is "not having the limitations that plague spontaneous casting". It's really not complicated.

[KillianHawkeye]

Personally, I enjoy the metagame of trying to predict what spells I will need on a particular day. Or of just generally having a spread of spell choices that will work in most circumstances, if going into a situation blindly. It's like playing a private chess game against the DM.

Playing a wizard gives me the most excuse to really metagame as hard as I can, which is something I ordinarily try to avoid. So it's a nice change of pace.


Edited to Add:

The versatility of prepared casters who have access to many spells means that the challenge is to choose which spells to prepare. This gives the prepared caster the opportunity to generalize or to specialize for a given circumstance. Conversely, when playing a spontaneous caster with limited spells known, the challenge is to develop a spell list that is as broadly useful as possible, because they are stuck with the same spells no matter what happens.

[Nifft]

5e casting wasn't widely available in 3.5e, so it isn't really fair to compare that to Wizard / Cleric / Druid.

The appeal of Wizard / Cleric / Druid is their power.

The Vancian casting is not particularly important, except that it's how those very powerful classes work.

[smetzger]

Personally, I enjoy the metagame of trying to predict what spells I will need on a particular day. Or of just generally having a spread of spell choices that will work in most circumstances, if going into a situation blindly. It's like playing a private chess game against the DM.

Playing a wizard gives me the most excuse to really metagame as hard as I can, which is something I ordinarily try to avoid. So it's a nice change of pace.

This. I would rather have a wide range of spells that I get to choose from daily rather than a wide range of spells that I get to choose at level up.

[Quertus]

WotC was experimenting with spontaneous casting starting with 3.0's Sorcerer.

The question remains: What is the appeal of prepared casting?

Thankee!

WotC may have been experimenting with spontaneous casting starting with 3.0's Sorcerer, but D&D had various spontaneous casting mechanisms back in 2e, possibly earlier.

As a question in the 3e forum, it's kinda difficult to answer… the appeal of playing a Wizard / Cleric / etc? Oh, wait, no - Unearthed Arcana gave us some degree of spontaneous casting on those classes.

So… the only answer I can give for the possible appeal of prepared casting would be… the challenge, the rush of "I picked right!"?

[Gnaeus]

To put this a different way....

The difference between prepared and spontaneous casting is less important than the number of spells each one gets. The 3.5 sorcerer has relatively few spells known so he may be stuck throwing a bunch of fireballs to use an earlier example. If you compare that with (for example) a human or half elf PF sorcerer, where they get 27 extra spells known over their career, they can cover all probable bases and are really hurt much less by their method of spell preparation than by their delayed spell level access.

[Feantar]

Speaking specifically about wizards here, it's planning. It feels very thematically appropriate to have the most intelligent, structured class (at least how wizardry is presented) to be very planning focused. Looking ahead, taking into consideration all information available to "predict" the future and tailor your powers accordingly feels really good for getting into the mindset of a wizard. And, on the other hand, having the genius be thwarted by something they couldn't / didn't foresee is very fitting.

Now, when it comes to clerics, it can be hit or miss. On city based clerics it fits; they leave most of their slots empty, and pray when need occurs. On adventuring clerics though... yeah. Sorry, my god won't intervene to save my life today, but he will offer me the ability to understand any language:P

Druids... it makes no sense at all. Druids always felt more instinctual, which would fit much more into a spontaneous model.

[icefractal]

Do you mean as a player for 3.x, or as a game designer?

For the former, it's because prepared casters can change their spells from day to day and spontaneous ones can't. That's worth sometimes having a sub-optimal choice prepared. Also at higher levels, prepared casters can have more versatility even within a day, thanks to high stats giving them a lot of slots.

For the latter, I probably wouldn't. It adds a resource puzzle that could be interesting, but IMO not enough to make up for the overhead. 5E-style casting (prepare X spells per day, cast Y spells per day from the ones you prepared) seems like a nice alternative.

I mean for that matter, if I was rebuilding casting there's a lot of cruft I'd cut. The spells themselves have plenty of tactical and strategic complexity, you don't need to add fiddly stuff like ten different DCs.

[RexDart]

Personally, I enjoy the metagame of trying to predict what spells I will need on a particular day. Or of just generally having a spread of spell choices that will work in most circumstances, if going into a situation blindly. It's like playing a private chess game against the DM.

Playing a wizard gives me the most excuse to really metagame as hard as I can, which is something I ordinarily try to avoid. So it's a nice change of pace.


Edited to Add:

The versatility of prepared casters who have access to many spells means that the challenge is to choose which spells to prepare. This gives the prepared caster the opportunity to generalize or to specialize for a given circumstance. Conversely, when playing a spontaneous caster with limited spells known, the challenge is to develop a spell list that is as broadly useful as possible, because they are stuck with the same spells no matter what happens.

Excellent synopsis, and also an excellent synopsis of why I personally hate all of the above, for precisely the same reasons. :smallsmile:

I really dislike the Nostradamus metagame, as well as fiddling bookkeeping with regard to spellbooks and the crafting stuff that many (most?) good wizards occupy themselves with.

But I do enjoy the challenge of finding exactly the right panoply of spells for my particular sorcerer, and being able to easily do stuff like cast a useful spell many, many times if necessary. (If I had to do my sorcerer over again, though, I would have used scrolls and wands and such a lot more often to cover potential gaps. My guy had a merchant background and hated paying retail.)

So it's all up to what you want out of the game and what you want to avoid.

[Efrate]

At least for 3.5, unless building on a theme, most conpotent sorcerers are going to have almost identical spells chosen. Barring cheese, looking at sorc 20, you get so few spells you need to have very broadly applicible selections, especially being playable 1 to 20. Fireball is fine but haste is better. Polymorph is always going to be chosen. Alter Self likely as well. As many of your spells need to be modal so you have answers because you get so little.

Take any 20 sorcerers of players of reasonably similar op fu and you will get very similar lists. Becuase if you do not, you are left being useless if your specific answer spell does not cut it, and it will not.

Whilst a prepared caster can leave a few slots open to fill as needed. With a general adventuring loadout that is likely similar to a sorcerers greatest hits, but with the slots and capabilities to have that silver bullet as needed.

Ease of list expansion as well for prepared; its a scroll away to be permanently yours, or you know everything already.

[Calthropstu]

Prepared casting is the ultimate "I got this." You can prepare any spell you need given enough time. "Hey look, there's a prismatic wall here. Give me some time to memorize the needed spells to bypass them." Good luck having all the required spells as a sorcerer.

It's also perfect for situations that come up infrequently. "Oh no, the object we're looking for is at the bottom of a lake? I got this." "We're fighting an ice dragon today and a fire dragon tomorrow? I got this." "We need to interrogate a prisoner? I got this."

A sorcerer has to pick spells that are as broad ad possible. When was the last time you saw a sorc take water breathing? Or locate object? Or any other rarely used spells? Prepared casters can solve problems sorcs will never bother to.

[Calthropstu]

At least for 3.5, unless building on a theme, most conpotent sorcerers are going to have almost identical spells chosen. Barring cheese, looking at sorc 20, you get so few spells you need to have very broadly applicible selections, especially being playable 1 to 20. Fireball is fine but haste is better. Polymorph is always going to be chosen. Alter Self likely as well. As many of your spells need to be modal so you have answers because you get so little.

Take any 20 sorcerers of players of reasonably similar op fu and you will get very similar lists. Becuase if you do not, you are left being useless if your specific answer spell does not cut it, and it will not.

Whilst a prepared caster can leave a few slots open to fill as needed. With a general adventuring loadout that is likely similar to a sorcerers greatest hits, but with the slots and capabilities to have that silver bullet as needed.

Ease of list expansion as well for prepared; its a scroll away to be permanently yours, or you know everything already.

I take none of the spells you mentioned as must haves. I LOVE my illusion based sorc, I also enjoy my cold based sorc, fire based sorc, summon based sorc, luck based sorc...

I have played dozens of sorcs and deliberately avoid having more than 4 or 5 repeats.

I love sorcs. Especially in pf.

[Elkad]

Personally, I enjoy the metagame of trying to predict what spells I will need on a particular day. Or of just generally having a spread of spell choices that will work in most circumstances, if going into a situation blindly. It's like playing a private chess game against the DM.

This exactly. A L20 sorc knows 43 spells by default. A wizard knows more cantrips than that, and that is the thinnest level. There are more than 100 9th level spells just in the regular books. Will I ever cast Silent Portal? I have no idea on any particular character, but I have used it in the past. I've used Hunters of Hades (9th) to summon a Retriever, a spell I can't imagine a sorc ever taking.

And if I can't find a spell to do what I want (to pick a random idea - a spell that works like Stoneskin, but ONLY on piercing damage - no I have no idea why I'd want that), I research a new one. Maybe I'll only use it once. Ever. But I have that option. Just shell out 4,000gp (I don't see a reason for it to be any higher level than 4th) and put it in my book.

[Elves]

1 - The gameplay feels thematic for the studious/scholarly theme of the D&D wizard. Much less so for other classes like druid and cleric. For the cleric in particular it's terrible -- implication of being a miracle working priest is that you ask your god for blessings and miracles as needed. Doesn't feel thematic for clerics to prepare ahead of time. There's room for some "pray at dawn" stuff in their gameplay but it shouldn't dominate. One simple fix is instead of giving them domain slots let them cast their domain spells spontaneously in addition to cure/inflict -- matches the idea that they can ask their god spontaneously for miracles but only in relation to that deity's powers.


2 - It's a way of trying to balance giving a character an unlimited list of spells known.

Personally I think arcanist-style casting is a happy medium -- one of the best things to come from PF and one of the best changes in 5e. IMO it also dissolves the need for sor and wiz to be separate classes, though 5e they didn't go that far. Happy to see Vancian die going forward.

[Endarire]

Having played plenty of prepared casters, the appeal of "I know this rarely-used spell and can finally cast it usefully!" has been there, but rarely used. Why? Because broadly-applicable spells are the default thoughts of the player after enough practice. You could use water breathing or fly + haste and probably get a similar effect.

I know Pathfinder 1e was generally very kind to spontaneous casters due to more spells per known via favored class bonuses and extra spontaneity via paragon surge, Emergency Attunement, Razmiran Priest, Mnemonic Vestments, and the like.

[Zaile]

After playing 3.X for so long, and then playing a lot of 5e the last couple years, I have come to appreciate both systems. The chess game as mentioned above is also fun in 3e.

In 3e, prepared casters could always leave a slot or two open each day in case they came across a problem they needed a certain spell for. Spend some time praying/studying, bam cast it.

In 5e we have a similar dynamic, but being able to prepare 1 fireball and cast is 3-4 times is really good. It makes the spontaneous casters have a smaller toolkit, but more versatility with it; while prepared casters have a much bigger toolkit, but less versatility if they guess wrong for any given day.

Remember the strength of wizards/archivists is also their limitation. They only get so many spells from leveling and need scrolls/spellbooks for the rest.

I will be part of a 3.X game soon where half (or more) of the players have ZERO 3e experience, so the DM was toying around with the 5e rules for prepared casters (prepare class level + ability mod spells per day), but remove abilities of clerics/druids to "spontaneously cast a cure/SNA spell" by sacrificing a prepared slot, so they have to prepare one of those spells to cast it. You could always prepare/cast a lower spell in a higher slot in 3e, but you got no benefit from it without metamagic. It will be interesting to see how this works.

Sorcerers/Favored Souls have 15 spells known at 10th, while Wizards/Clerics/Druids would be able to prepare 10+Mod spells per day. This changes to 34 spells known and C/D/W to 20+mod at 20th. However cleric and druid have to dedicate slots to SNA and "cure" spells.

[Darg]

I really like the Spirit Shaman approach. You get prepared spell level progression and spell selection per day while keeping the spontaneous ability. The only negative is the number of spells you get to select per day. It is possible to get spell preparation and to increase the number of spells you can select per day though.

[Melcar]

Well I don't think there is an appeal in general. Its however the better version of the two between wizard and sorcerer, so its relative. In general, the arcanist from the Netherese boxed set would be the most appealing, and the Beholder Mage being second most appealing.

But of the two we generally have as the most dominating, the wizard is better/ more appealing because it has a lot more versatility... Also the Vancian spell system goes way back, so there's that too!

[Jay R]

Playing an RPG (or really, any game that isn't a sport) is simply a long series of decisions to make.

For a prepared caster, choosing what spells to memorize is part of that long series of decisions.

And it's a part I enjoy. It can be done well or poorly, just like deciding how to fight a melee. And it's a challenge. You are basing your decision on incomplete information. You know your party's plans, and what part of the world you're in, but you don't know the exact encounters.

[In my current game, we're going through a swamp, looking to defeat a fae. So my wizard always has Junglerazer ready. Sometimes that has been a perfect choice, sometimes it has been useless, and I need to get creative with the other spells I have. Either way, that's part of the fun of the game.]

This is similar to poker, where I have to decide to call, raise, or fold knowing my hand but not my opponents' hands.

The challenge of making that decision is part of the fun of the game -- at least for me.

But if it isn't fun for you, then play spontaneous casters. There's no reason you should have to enjoy what I enjoy.


But there's no reason I should have to enjoy what you enjoy, either.

[Darg]

Playing an RPG (or really, any game that isn't a sport) is simply a long series of decisions to make.

For a prepared caster, choosing what spells to memorize is part of that long series of decisions.

And it's a part I enjoy. It can be done well or poorly, just like deciding how to fight a melee. And it's a challenge. You are basing your decision on incomplete information. You know your party's plans, and what part of the world you're in, but you don't know the exact encounters.

[In my current game, we're going through a swamp, looking to defeat a fae. So my wizard always has Junglerazer ready. Sometimes that has been a perfect choice, sometimes it has been useless, and I need to get creative with the other spells I have. Either way, that's part of the fun of the game.]

This is similar to poker, where I have to decide to call, raise, or fold knowing my hand but not my opponents' hands.

The challenge of making that decision is part of the fun of the game -- at least for me.

But if it isn't fun for you, then play spontaneous casters. There's no reason you should have to enjoy what I enjoy.


But there's no reason I should have to enjoy what you enjoy, either.

Very well said, and I have to agree even if I don't have the head for it myself. I like the idea that power and versatility should come at cost, effort, and risk. Prepared Vancian casting almost maximizes all of those. To an extent, you can even raise one to reduce the other two. Honestly, it makes it extremely easy to increase the power level of spellcasting without having to turn things into resource sponges. I can't say D&D did a good job balancing, but that has more to do with value tweaks and communication rather than the system as a whole.

[Faily]

I love the sheer versatility that comes with prepared casters.

As a wizard, if our party is about to embark upon a sea voyage, I can spend some time to scribe in lots of spells that will be useful in aquatic terrain (allowing people to breathe in water, giving favorable winds to the sails, making sure that the fighter doesn't sink if he falls overboard, etc) and completely tailor my spell-list to those surroundings and likely dangers. If I were a Sorcerer, maybe I picked a spell or two earlier that might be useful, but otherwise I'm stuck with scrolls and trying to solve all problems with a hammer.

As a cleric, I can swap my spell list completely from day to day, having anti-evil outsiders loadout on one day, and switch to anti-undead repertoire the next day. And if the next day we're staying in the city and attending a fancy party, I can probably swap out a lot of spells too to help with that.


Simply put, magic is a tool. A spontaneous caster gets a toolbelt, where the quality depends on their choices. Prepared casters gets the entire toolbox in addition to the toolbelt.

[Particle_Man]

Thematically the prepared caster works better if you sometimes run away from a foe or only partially deal with a group of similar foes or some other situation. Like the 60’s tv cartoon spider man, you can lick your wounds and then be much better prepared the next day with exactly the right (web formula) spells for the job. That is kind of a cool feeling.

Also, it fits lawful characters thematically to prepare things in advance.

Also as stated above it is good for those who don’t scour the internet to choose the best spells via optimization handbooks. If you just “learn as you go” a prepared caster is more forgiving of the “wrong” spell choice than a spontaneous caster. You just switch it out the next day.

Btw, there is a cleric variant in phb II iirc that allows clerics to give up cure/inflict spontaneous casting to instead have spontaneous casting for one domain. They also can prepare cure/inflict spells in the domain slot.

[rel]

My opinions have been covered pretty well by other posters but I want to touch on utility a little more.
Barring a few esoteric tricks, a prepared caster, especially a cleric or druid has far more utility than any implementation of spontaneous casting.

You can pick spells that are useful only once and prepare those. You can pick spells that are useful once every few days and prepare those up front. You can prepare just one copy of spells that will only be useful once a day, you can gamble on a few really situational spells that might pay of in a big way.
And none of this consumes permanent build resources or even daily resources in a meaningful way.

My favored soul never bothered learning celestial brilliance since you only cast it once every week or two.

My sorcerer won't be using illusionary wall to create a safehouse within the dungeon or learning heart of stone for a minor but permanent buff.

Meanwhile my wizard can happily cast 3 or 4 situational buffs every morning on top of the generically useful stuff and still learn the handful of spells that grant you a minor thematic bonus just for learning them.

[aglondier]

I enjoy the challenge of adapting the slapdash collection of spells I pick at the beginning of a day/session to any situation we encounter.

Grease is brilliant, so damn many uses...not least of which is just dumping all over some snooty bigoted noble and their rediculous finery...

[Arkhios]

I can think of two reasons: 'being true to Vancian spellcasting' or 'the freedom to choose which spells you have each given day' both of which are my reasons.

[Faily]

I will say though that I prefer spontaneous casters for my NPCs/enemies as it just makes it easier for me to deal with as a GM. Choose what they have, that's it, cast as many times as desired (or until they run out, but usually they die before running out :smalltongue: ).

[noob]

Greetings, all!

Aside from the fact that prepared casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Archivists, and similar classes) get or tend to get most spell levels one character level sooner than their prepared counterparts (Sorcerer, Psion, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, etc.), and having played prepared and spontaneous casters . Note that not all prepared casters have something close to a 1:1 spontaneous counterpart: Psions and Erudites aren't merely spontaneous, power point-based ("mana") Wizards, though they can use some similar abilities and sometimes fill similar roles. Warlocks aren't just Sorcerers who can use a small number of spells/spell-like abilities known per day but at will, and so on.

Having played various games (tabletop and video), the appeal of spontaneous casting is greater. It's more fun, it's what video gamers have come to expect, it's what WotC put into D&D 5e (sometimes with the ability to switch spell preps between days for spontaneous casting), and it's likely also easier to understand. I understand prepared Vancian casting as a legacy thing of D&D - and later Pathfinder and other D&D offshoots which also sorta included Dark Souls - and that WotC was experimenting with spontaneous casting starting with 3.0's Sorcerer. Maybe there's some niche satisfaction in realizing or/and telling others, "I told you that I was right to prepare/use X in Y situation."

EDIT:
To clarify, by prepared casting, I mean purely prepared casting instead of the mix of spontaneous casting (like with a Sorcerer) and prepared-plus-spontaneous casting (like with Pathfinder 1e's Arcanist or D&D 5e's prepared casters).

The question remains: What is the appeal of prepared casting?

Thankee!

The appeal of prepared casting is the smug look on the gm face when none of your prepared spells helps you.
Also the fact you can have tons of different spells each day and adapt in one hour to new situations by preparing in your empty slots(ex: you find a magical item and you prepare identify at the last minute).

[Particle_Man]

The appeal of prepared casting is the smug look on the gm face when none of your prepared spells helps you.

As opposed to the smug look on the gm face when none of the known spells of a spontaneous caster are helpful? :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

As opposed to the smug look on the gm face when none of the known spells of a spontaneous caster are helpful? :smallbiggrin:

Except the problem is that the gm can not afterwards say "you prepared the wrong spells this morning while I gave many cues on doughnuts being central to the plot yesterday and so that you should have prepared enhance doughnut" because the spontaneous caster could not have adjusted his spell list on such short notice.

[Jay R]

The appeal of prepared casting is the smug look on the gm face when none of your prepared spells helps you.
As opposed to the smug look on the gm face when none of the known spells of a spontaneous caster are helpful? :smallbiggrin:

I've ... never had to deal with that, and I've been playing off and on since original D&D in 1975.

Your problem isn't prepared casting (or spontaneous casting). Your problem is poor DMs who want to see you fail.

[Quertus]

I've ... never had to deal with that, and I've been playing off and on since original D&D in 1975.

Your problem isn't prepared casting (or spontaneous casting). Your problem is poor DMs who want to see you fail.

Have you not read the forums from which the Giant got his name? There is plenty of evidence there that the necessary level of toxic for such events to occur¹ is extraordinary common, and that your experiences are either indicative of a sheltered (gaming) upbringing, or a blessed existence.

Enjoy and appreciate your blessed existence, while the rest of us wallow in the midst of the mud and feces that is the memories of a more normal gaming experience.

¹ which is a rather low level of toxic, merely 3e alignment of "evil" (enjoys suffering of others), rather than the much higher level of toxic evidenced therein

[DMVerdandi]

Generally It would be... spell advancement rate?
That and the absolute restriction of spontaneous casting was RIDICULOUS.

Very quickly, you understand that the difficulty in the game is actually Zilla>Wizard>>Sorcerer>>fighter.

The last two have an issue with being stuck with options. Thematically it might be fine, but from pure practicality.

It's not that 3.5 prepared casting is good. It's not. It's clunky and really makes you play a game that you might not necessarily want to. But at the same time it's still better than spontaneous.


In 3.5 there ARE better casting mechanics though. It was an old game with tons of content.

The Spirit shaman has one of the best in the game. You get the whole list, but you prepare from the list, and cast spontaneously from your prepared spells.

The Spell point wizard is ALSO really really good [Still not as good as spell point cleric or Druid], where you also are a prepared spontaneous caster, and cast those spells with spell points.


There are classes that cast from their full list, but generally they are limited



And then there is my favorite of all time.
The ORIGINAL Erudite [from Dragon, not CompPsi]
You memorize all of your psionic powers that you learn, but the mechanic for manifesting was called unique powers per day.
Essentially, you had slots that are in super position. Lets say you have 3rd level powers

4/4/4 40 spell points.

The Erudite thus has 4 slots to fill per spell level, and you fill your slots by manifesting the power.

So if you manifest W and X, and you have WXYZ on your list, then you can only fill 2 more slots.

And then once they were filled, you could simply re-manifest the power by spending the points as normal.



It has the flexibility I crave without just saying, Oh, you can use any power. You ABSOLUTELY cannot. It's almost the wizard game in reverse. Sure, you could manifest water breathing on the party, but that need being filled DOES take away from your options. Each spell prepared is one less option you have, but it's not CRIPPLED like the comp psi version. The wizard has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to prepare water breathing.

The erudite has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to manifest it. Especially if you have already manifested 3 other unique powers. Yes you can use a higher level power if you have it, but those ALL TAKE FROM THE SAME POOL OF POWER POINTS. Then you can manifest even less.


I was already a lover of psionics and psychic powers, but when I say I fell in love with it...



I say it without any question, it's the best mechanic in the game.

[noob]

Generally It would be... spell advancement rate?
That and the absolute restriction of spontaneous casting was RIDICULOUS.

Very quickly, you understand that the difficulty in the game is actually Zilla>Wizard>>Sorcerer>>fighter.

The last two have an issue with being stuck with options. Thematically it might be fine, but from pure practicality.

It's not that 3.5 prepared casting is good. It's not. It's clunky and really makes you play a game that you might not necessarily want to. But at the same time it's still better than spontaneous.


In 3.5 there ARE better casting mechanics though. It was an old game with tons of content.

The Spirit shaman has one of the best in the game. You get the whole list, but you prepare from the list, and cast spontaneously from your prepared spells.

The Spell point wizard is ALSO really really good [Still not as good as spell point cleric or Druid], where you also are a prepared spontaneous caster, and cast those spells with spell points.


There are classes that cast from their full list, but generally they are limited



And then there is my favorite of all time.
The ORIGINAL Erudite [from Dragon, not CompPsi]
You memorize all of your psionic powers that you learn, but the mechanic for manifesting was called unique powers per day.
Essentially, you had slots that are in super position. Lets say you have 3rd level powers

4/4/4 40 spell points.

The Erudite thus has 4 slots to fill per spell level, and you fill your slots by manifesting the power.

So if you manifest W and X, and you have WXYZ on your list, then you can only fill 2 more slots.

And then once they were filled, you could simply re-manifest the power by spending the points as normal.



It has the flexibility I crave without just saying, Oh, you can use any power. You ABSOLUTELY cannot. It's almost the wizard game in reverse. Sure, you could manifest water breathing on the party, but that need being filled DOES take away from your options. Each spell prepared is one less option you have, but it's not CRIPPLED like the comp psi version. The wizard has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to prepare water breathing.

The erudite has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to manifest it. Especially if you have already manifested 3 other unique powers. Yes you can use a higher level power if you have it, but those ALL TAKE FROM THE SAME POOL OF POWER POINTS. Then you can manifest even less.


I was already a lover of psionics and psychic powers, but when I say I fell in love with it...



I say it without any question, it's the best mechanic in the game.
As much as the erudite was a great design it is way less often accepted in the game than wizards or clerics and it is significantly weaker.
(unless spell to power erudite but it is a nonsensical variant that is even less accepted)

[Serafina]

Prepared Casting works best if your game works like a Heist Movie.
Which is what a good dungeon crawl should be like, quite often.

When you know roughly what you are going into, you can plan for it, you have time to prepare for it, and everyone can throw their contributions onto the table while you are planning for it. But you are also constantly on edge whether any plan will go just as planned, or whether there will be an unforseen complication you have not accounted for. A hidden guard or monster, a puzzle or trap you can not quite bypass, a treasure that nobody knew was cursed.
That way, the people who made plans and saw their plans come to fruition will be happy: "I knew there would be vampires, and I prepared Sunbeam!". But also the people who kept tools around for the unexpected can save the day.

The trick is to fight the right balance, and to not have the unexpected be telegraphed or just result in a failure state if nobody prepared for it - it's supposed to feel good if you do have the right tool, but if you didn't, well, you can still uncurse the treasure later you just have to figure out how to deal with it now!


Honestly, the best system for Magic would probably be a mixture between "Spontaneous" (=always available, just the stuff you can do, spontaneous is a poor name for that) and Prepared Magic.
The decisions whether to take a staple spell you just need in combat (say, Grease or Fireball) or whether to take a Tactical Toolbox spell that may or may not be useful (say, Break Enchantment or Mass Invisibility) is just a poor one.
It'd be much more interesting if players just had to directly choose between the Toolbox spells, and you just left the staple combat spells as a separate thing.

[Darg]

And then there is my favorite of all time.
The ORIGINAL Erudite [from Dragon, not CompPsi]
You memorize all of your psionic powers that you learn, but the mechanic for manifesting was called unique powers per day.
Essentially, you had slots that are in super position. Lets say you have 3rd level powers

4/4/4 40 spell points.

The Erudite thus has 4 slots to fill per spell level, and you fill your slots by manifesting the power.

So if you manifest W and X, and you have WXYZ on your list, then you can only fill 2 more slots.

And then once they were filled, you could simply re-manifest the power by spending the points as normal.



It has the flexibility I crave without just saying, Oh, you can use any power. You ABSOLUTELY cannot. It's almost the wizard game in reverse. Sure, you could manifest water breathing on the party, but that need being filled DOES take away from your options. Each spell prepared is one less option you have, but it's not CRIPPLED like the comp psi version. The wizard has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to prepare water breathing.

The erudite has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to manifest it. Especially if you have already manifested 3 other unique powers. Yes you can use a higher level power if you have it, but those ALL TAKE FROM THE SAME POOL OF POWER POINTS. Then you can manifest even less.


I was already a lover of psionics and psychic powers, but when I say I fell in love with it...



I say it without any question, it's the best mechanic in the game.

Oh my, I must know. Which dragon is it?

[Doctor Awkward]

Prepared casting versus spontaneous casting is the difference between how a film school graduate enjoys a movie versus how an average person enjoys the same movie. At some point in your D&D career some people stop thinking about how great it is that they can cast fireball eight times a day and understand that they'll probably never have a need to do so, and that they can spend those same spell slots on doing other fun and useful things. Some people never get tired of casting fireball. Other people start to explore the versatility and flexibility provides superior tactical options day after day, and allows you to plan ahead or set things up in advance. Simply having utility spells in a book that you prepare and cast on days that you don't see combat creates an entirely new approach to adventuring.

Not having to worry about making choices is more fun for you. Some people have more fun being Batman.

[DMVerdandi]

Oh my, I must know. Which dragon is it?

319, amigo:smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[DMVerdandi]

As much as the erudite was a great design it is way less often accepted in the game than wizards or clerics and it is significantly weaker.
(unless spell to power erudite but it is a nonsensical variant that is even less accepted)

It's really quite the pet peeve that my favorite class is trashed so hard by people a little more...groggy., even though IN REALITY, it's probably the most balanced of all. Yes, even with spell to power.


The issue is actually in the complete psionics erudite. THAT ONE is horrible, but still retains a minimum of the flexibility that the original does. However it's so limited that it promotes cheese. The original isn't actually that cheesy at all, and is in essence, a proto form of an Arcanist with quick study.
It's just SUPREMELY FLEXIBLE.





But played straight, depending on what happens, it functions just like anything else. It doesn't really shine as a blaster, but has that tier 1 nope button, but it's not actually "stronger" than a wizard really, they just have an infinitely better means of choosing what is in the toolbox.



You can still play a spell to power erudite dumb as bricks. You could have a level of mastery where you are only thinking about learning say... direct damage spells and powers, and that's all you want.
It's crippled in a way, but nothing says you can't play it as a warmage. You TOTALLY could.

Or you could learn nothing but bard spells [A thought experiment I have had]. And play like a totally musical mentalist

Or you could snatch the whole dread necromancer list with enough XP. Or money really. And to be honest, if you limited yourself like that, you'd come out as a worse dread necromancer in many ways, as they can cast from the whole list spontaneously, but at most per day you'd get 36 powers, and that is permabaked into the class. You CAN'T prepare more than that.




Or you could do ALL of those things, which is what people fear, but you CAN'T do all of those things. You can do 4 things per spell level.
Yeah sure, it could cast reality revision a whole bunch of times a day, but a psion can do that too, but it's FIRMLY tier 2. Because it's a reskinned sorcerer. And in many ways, not having access to some of the stuff for sorcerers makes it a SLIGHT bit weaker, and it is more balanced.



Erudite is the wizard reskinned for psionics, where the psion is a reskinned sorcerer.

Undoubtedly, the spell to power erudite is WAAAAAY more versatile, but it's actually got decent enough internal limits than simply being someone with alter reality.

Is the 319 Erudite with spell to power the strongest class in the game? Barely, but yes.

Is it unkillable? HARDLY.
Does it necessarily have infinite resources? HEAVENS no.
Can you still break the game with the same PHB bull? You know it.

Even further if you simply make an easy bake spell point wizard, or a spell point archivist[LAWD]. I would say that since they actually don't have the limits on powers that they can prepare, in a lot of ways, their is eventually a theoretical tipping point where they would FAR overtake the erudite.

It's cheaper to make an SPEBW [Spell point easy bake wizard].





So it's not like there aren't ways you can crack the game wide open with other things. But cracking the game open isn't the point at all.

So the truth is actually, that the 319 STP Erudite is the most VERSATILE for the lowest investment. And only when fresh. Every power they manifest makes them 1/36 less versatile until. And really it's less than that.
Yes they can cast 19 9th level powers in a row, but... who needs to? What challenge does that complete?

Again, A psion can cast reality revision 19 times in a row as well, but it's not more powerful than a wizard. And the wizard doesn't even NEED that many 9th level spells.

But the gap closes by a LOT if you make an easy bake spell point wizard.
A LOT a lot.
It's that the erudite is easier to play. It's an EASIER TO PLAY wizard. But it makes you wonder if the difficulty of the wizard necessarily makes the experience to play better, or if it's ACTUAL balance, vs difficulty disguised as balance.





One final point is that self regulation is the key to making Erudite the most enjoyable class.
Having a theme to play around is what lets you not step on toes. It's not like you get non-psion powers for free.
Focus on a school or discipline, and then say... limit yourself from another type. Don't learn any enchantment spells, because you believe in free will. Don't buy any conjuration or psychoportation because you believe messing with time eventually brings mechanus robots, don't buy any illusion because you don't like to hide behind lies.

Whatever you want. Gimping yourself for the party is one of the privileges of the strong. You literally don't have to do everything. Don't.
Find everyone's niche, and stick to yours, and if you HAVE to use something to control someone's mind, [say you have psionic dominate]

Roleplay it like crazy. Get depressed. lash out a little bit.
You are protecting your individual character's integrity, the role of possibly the enchanter who is also in your party, the cohesion of the group's delegated positions, AND maybe causing a new story arc.

Maybe you want to find a guru who can use psychic reformation and modify memory to wipe their minds of the power and the experience.

[Endarire]

Thanks for making me an erudite of the Erudite! Alleluia!

[noob]

It's really quite the pet peeve that my favorite class is trashed so hard by people a little more...groggy., even though IN REALITY, it's probably the most balanced of all. Yes, even with spell to power.


The issue is actually in the complete psionics erudite. THAT ONE is horrible, but still retains a minimum of the flexibility that the original does. However it's so limited that it promotes cheese. The original isn't actually that cheesy at all, and is in essence, a proto form of an Arcanist with quick study.
It's just SUPREMELY FLEXIBLE.





But played straight, depending on what happens, it functions just like anything else. It doesn't really shine as a blaster, but has that tier 1 nope button, but it's not actually "stronger" than a wizard really, they just have an infinitely better means of choosing what is in the toolbox.



You can still play a spell to power erudite dumb as bricks. You could have a level of mastery where you are only thinking about learning say... direct damage spells and powers, and that's all you want.
It's crippled in a way, but nothing says you can't play it as a warmage. You TOTALLY could.

Or you could learn nothing but bard spells [A thought experiment I have had]. And play like a totally musical mentalist

Or you could snatch the whole dread necromancer list with enough XP. Or money really. And to be honest, if you limited yourself like that, you'd come out as a worse dread necromancer in many ways, as they can cast from the whole list spontaneously, but at most per day you'd get 36 powers, and that is permabaked into the class. You CAN'T prepare more than that.




Or you could do ALL of those things, which is what people fear, but you CAN'T do all of those things. You can do 4 things per spell level.
Yeah sure, it could cast reality revision a whole bunch of times a day, but a psion can do that too, but it's FIRMLY tier 2. Because it's a reskinned sorcerer. And in many ways, not having access to some of the stuff for sorcerers makes it a SLIGHT bit weaker, and it is more balanced.



Erudite is the wizard reskinned for psionics, where the psion is a reskinned sorcerer.

Undoubtedly, the spell to power erudite is WAAAAAY more versatile, but it's actually got decent enough internal limits than simply being someone with alter reality.

Is the 319 Erudite with spell to power the strongest class in the game? Barely, but yes.

Is it unkillable? HARDLY.
Does it necessarily have infinite resources? HEAVENS no.
Can you still break the game with the same PHB bull? You know it.

Even further if you simply make an easy bake spell point wizard, or a spell point archivist[LAWD]. I would say that since they actually don't have the limits on powers that they can prepare, in a lot of ways, their is eventually a theoretical tipping point where they would FAR overtake the erudite.

It's cheaper to make an SPEBW [Spell point easy bake wizard].





So it's not like there aren't ways you can crack the game wide open with other things. But cracking the game open isn't the point at all.

So the truth is actually, that the 319 STP Erudite is the most VERSATILE for the lowest investment. And only when fresh. Every power they manifest makes them 1/36 less versatile until. And really it's less than that.
Yes they can cast 19 9th level powers in a row, but... who needs to? What challenge does that complete?

Again, A psion can cast reality revision 19 times in a row as well, but it's not more powerful than a wizard. And the wizard doesn't even NEED that many 9th level spells.

But the gap closes by a LOT if you make an easy bake spell point wizard.
A LOT a lot.
It's that the erudite is easier to play. It's an EASIER TO PLAY wizard. But it makes you wonder if the difficulty of the wizard necessarily makes the experience to play better, or if it's ACTUAL balance, vs difficulty disguised as balance.





One final point is that self regulation is the key to making Erudite the most enjoyable class.
Having a theme to play around is what lets you not step on toes. It's not like you get non-psion powers for free.
Focus on a school or discipline, and then say... limit yourself from another type. Don't learn any enchantment spells, because you believe in free will. Don't buy any conjuration or psychoportation because you believe messing with time eventually brings mechanus robots, don't buy any illusion because you don't like to hide behind lies.

Whatever you want. Gimping yourself for the party is one of the privileges of the strong. You literally don't have to do everything. Don't.
Find everyone's niche, and stick to yours, and if you HAVE to use something to control someone's mind, [say you have psionic dominate]

Roleplay it like crazy. Get depressed. lash out a little bit.
You are protecting your individual character's integrity, the role of possibly the enchanter who is also in your party, the cohesion of the group's delegated positions, AND maybe causing a new story arc.

Maybe you want to find a guru who can use psychic reformation and modify memory to wipe their minds of the power and the experience.
You react as if I said it was overpowered while I did not say such thing.
Acceptation rate and being powerful are two different things and my post did mention that: I said "it is less accepted despite being weaker"

[St Fan]

Everybody made very good points about prepared versus spontaneous casting, but there's one little aspect I hadn't seen mentioned.

Prepared spellcasters also have a big advantage over spontaneous casters with spells that have permanent duration, or even just lengthy one (several days).

Sure, a sorcerer could pick permanency as a spell, but after casting it a few times it's no longer going to be useful on a day-to-day basis, further reducing his already limited spell selection.

Meanwhile, a wizard can prepare and cast several long-lasting spells on a day of no adventuring, and then the next day switch his selection to more useful ones for the challenges at hand, thus profiting of both.

Not to mention a similar ease with creating various magic items with just the right spell, and not having to bother with it afterward.

A spontaneous caster will certainly never pick a spell that is to be used one or twice and no longer afterward. Prepared casters can do this at no particular cost.

Also, all prepared casters can expend their spell lists with Sanctified (if non-evil) and Corrupt spells. Spontaneous casters cannot (except for some specific prestige classes).

[noob]

Everybody made very good points about prepared versus spontaneous casting, but there's one little aspect I hadn't seen mentioned.

Prepared spellcasters also have a big advantage over spontaneous casters with spells that have permanent duration, or even just lengthy one (several days).

Sure, a sorcerer could pick permanency as a spell, but after casting it a few times it's no longer going to be useful on a day-to-day basis, further reducing his already limited spell selection.

Meanwhile, a wizard can prepare and cast several long-lasting spells on a day of no adventuring, and then the next day switch his selection to more useful ones for the challenges at hand, thus profiting of both.

Not to mention a similar ease with creating various magic items with just the right spell, and not having to bother with it afterward.

A spontaneous caster will certainly never pick a spell that is to be used one or twice and no longer afterward. Prepared casters can do this at no particular cost.

Also, all prepared casters can expend their spell lists with Sanctified (if non-evil) and Corrupt spells. Spontaneous casters cannot (except for some specific prestige classes).
Spontaneous cleric can use sanctified spells fine I believe.

[Darg]

Spontaneous cleric can use sanctified spells fine I believe.

Not unless that cleric somehow gets arcane preparation. Sanctified spells only work if you can prepare them. You can either take a level dip, or take magical training to qualify.

[noob]

Not unless that cleric somehow gets arcane preparation. Sanctified spells only work if you can prepare them. You can either take a level dip, or take magical training to qualify.

There is an explicit mention about clerics being able to cast sanctified spells spontaneously and the spontaneous cleric is a cleric.

[Darg]

There is an explicit mention about clerics being able to cast sanctified spells spontaneously and the spontaneous cleric is a cleric.

Spontaneous clerics lose their ability to spontaneously convert spellslots. The line makes direct mention of that ability:


clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.


Characters who use this option lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells in place of other spells.

[Zanos]

Personally I think prepared casters have far greater latitude in sandbox games where you have objectives that aren't strictly related to breaking into areas where dangerous stuff lives and killing it. A wizard suffers very little or not at all from adding spells to their spellbook that aren't strictly used for combat purposes. Using stuff like wall of stone, stone shape, and fabricate in kingdom building gets pretty interesting. You don't have to sacrifice combat effectiveness to add to your army with animate dead on days where you aren't personally fighting. You can take the planar binding line and associated support spells (magic circle, dimensional anchor, etc. to get involved with outsiders and negotiate with extra-planar entities. You can take contact other plane or scrying to get more information on your enemies, or even your allies. Stuff like that. So I guess I enjoy that prepared casters have interesting ways to interact and advanced themselves within the setting, and can do so at relatively little cost to their combat performance.

4e and 5es problems aren't really their casting systems, although that's part of it, but rather that most class features that weren't directly related to combat were removed.

In combat, I think it's more interesting to tactically tailor you spells to encounters than it is to take a handful of spells known at every level that are just always good, but that's just me.