Handling No Fail Grapple/Shove.... Fine?

[dmhelp]

With all the ways to get expertise in athletics +/- reliable talent (and now rune knight for further size changes), how do people handle no failure grapple/shove when they are DMing?

Do you just plan on a few creatures (or the bbeg) being locked down with adv/disadv stacked against them?

Is any boost to the under picked grappler/tavern brawler feats too good when it can be stacked w expertise athletics?

[Dienekes]

Honestly, just let the player be awesome. I'd design encounters where there is a big threat they can grapple and feel like they're really contributing like a badass for a few minutes.

I might not let the BBEG be that grappled threat. Probably use a "powerful" henchman. At least not at first. If guy grappling the BBEG essentially ends the BBEG as a threat I'd instead design the encounter in such a way that the challenge is getting the grappler to the BBEG in the first place.

[Galithar]

Don't do anything unless it's trivializing encounters. Then just make enemies larger or incorporeal sometimes. (ghosts are immune to grapple and prone conditions) Alternatively make it 3+ bad guys. Unless they have multiple people built to grapple they won't be able to do it to everyone.

Be careful not to make all enemies like this, as that is punishing a player for being effective. Just throw them in sometimes.

[Contrast]

Do you just plan on a few creatures (or the bbeg) being locked down with adv/disadv stacked against them?

I'm currently playing an unarmed fighting style rune knight. I'm currently level 5 and I think I've probably grappled someone every fight so far.

The number of people I think it was tactically sensible for me to grapple is 1 and they didn't even get shoved prone as that would have screwed over the ranged 2/3rds of the party.

It costs 2 attacks (minimum) to grapple and shove someone, so in order to be worth doing the advantage needs to recoup that expected damage before it even breaks even. My experience is that a lot of mook enemies die before that math would work out. This is on top of being able to grapple in the first place means you have a free hand which means you're either giving up 2AC for a shield, damage from a weapon or additional damage from using a two handed weapon with PAM/GWM/whatever.

Basically, yeah, don't worry about it. Sometimes it won't be effective, sometimes it will. Grappler/Tavern Brawler are far from being optimal.

[Jerrykhor]

If your BBEG can be locked down with grapples and shoves, then its just an EG.

[Zhorn]

Be careful not to make all enemies like this, as that is punishing a player for being effective. Just throw them in sometimes.
Very much this. If a player has made use of the official rules to make something they thought was neat and wanted to enjoy, then it can be a pretty poopy DM move to lock down on it and make that aspect of the build useless.
Have a mix of encounter types that both work with an against it, so it's not the solution to every encounter, but it gets often enough use and enough time in the sun to feel worth while.

Have some set up to have the feature work as intended
Have some some where it is amazingly good
Have some where is is difficult to execute
Have some where it is impossible to use

[stoutstien]

Grapple/prone are both easy conditions to achieve but they are also easy to reverse and counter. I don't think you need much planning for it past making sure you don't have a disproportionate number of encounters with less NPCs than PCs. Those are going to be a cakewalk most of the time anyways.

No fail values on ability contests are also extremely high. Even with advantage on the check and a +10 higher value it's hardly an auto success. Don't overlook NPCs using the help action to cancel the advantage out sometimes.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can always give the BBEG a ring od free action for the party to loot.
Or oil of slippernes.
Or make him cast freedom of movement in the fight so they will feel like they made him lose an action.

[DoctorArek]

Grapple is already a rarely used technique in 5e for some reason. It's very powerful tactic that goes beyond just dealing damage so I suggest to let player feel awesome. If you don't want him to roll Xbow Battlemaster/EA Samurai or Vengeance Paladin next time and just "I attack, I attack, I attack, I attack" - then let him have fun with something different. Also it means he is probably more of team-player so that's also a big plus.


You can always give the BBEG a ring od free action for the party to loot.
Or oil of slippernes.
Or make him cast freedom of movement in the fight so they will feel like they made him lose an action.

Ring of free action only protects vs magical effects. Freedom of movement spell might be good solution but party caster can just Dispel it. Ring of Freedom of movement might be better but then after they kill it - their grappler will get it and be unstoppable, literally.

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo those who say "In general, let it be."

You mention Reliable Talent, which comes on the one-attack Rogue at level 11. So the earliest you could do two grapples or a grapple-shove in a turn is level 16.

Before Reliable Talent, you're looking at (20 Strength, Expertise, +4 Prof) +13, which is minimum 14. So unless your creatures have -7 to Athletics AND Acrobatics...

With Reliable Talent, that jumps up a ton, to 23. That can grapple anyone 100% of the time if they have +2 or less to Athletics and Acrobatics, and once grappled, they can't escape unless they have +4 or higher. But even then, until level 16, that's their ONLY contribution for a turn-stopping someone from moving.

If it's an issue, as mentioned above...
-Use multiple enemies
-Use incorporeal or Huge enemies (Gargantuan if the grappler is Enlarged)
-Use foes who don't care about being locked down

[da newt]

Also remember that any forced movement of the grappler or grappled breaks the grapple - so an Eldritch Blast / Repelling Blast or any similar forced movement targeting either creature breaks the grapple.

[MrCharlie]

If your BBEG can be locked down with grapples and shoves, then its just an EG.
Not always. You can humiliate a lich with the silence spell and a grapple check, and that's just the way it is. Not every enemy is good in all situations.

Creating a bunch of stacked counter measures to prevent this from working is almost literally just cheating as a DM-the challenge had an interesting countermeasure that the party thought of, and you're metagaming (in a game where you control the metagame) to bypass it.

Is it possible for the lich to have a few countermeasures? Sure. Maybe they have a contingent dimension door or misty step that activates when restrained or incapacitated. But "ring of freedom of action" or "oil of slipperness" is pushing all reason-if the party can rally and get the tactic to work through the original teleport and rally against that, they deserve the win. It's the difference between preparation and fiat.

[DoctorArek]

If your BBEG can be locked down with grapples and shoves, then its just an EG.

It's valid tactic. Why should player not be rewared for it?

Also since it's a Rogue from what I see, not Rune Knight - size matters. Introduce more Huge BBEG and he won't be able to grapple and shove them. Party can of course Enlarge him but it's concentration wasted on that and I don't think party caster wants to spend every encounter just holding Enlarge spell.

[Segev]

I'll echo those who say "In general, let it be."

You mention Reliable Talent, which comes on the one-attack Rogue at level 11. So the earliest you could do two grapples or a grapple-shove in a turn is level 16.

I think the earliest you can get this EFFECT is level 14: Rogue 11, Open Hand Monk 3. The grapple is an attack action, which lets you trigger Flurry of Blows, and the guy you smack with Flurry can be forced to make a Dexterity save or be knocked prone. Grapple, flurry->prone.

[Darth Credence]

Not always. You can humiliate a lich with the silence spell and a grapple check, and that's just the way it is. Not every enemy is good in all situations.

Creating a bunch of stacked counter measures to prevent this from working is almost literally just cheating as a DM-the challenge had an interesting countermeasure that the party thought of, and you're metagaming (in a game where you control the metagame) to bypass it.

Is it possible for the lich to have a few countermeasures? Sure. Maybe they have a contingent dimension door or misty step that activates when restrained or incapacitated. But "ring of freedom of action" or "oil of slipperness" is pushing all reason-if the party can rally and get the tactic to work through the original teleport and rally against that, they deserve the win. It's the difference between preparation and fiat.

A silence spell that the lich does not use counterspell on will eliminate most of its choices, sure. I believe that if the lich has a globe of invulnerability up, though, the silence spell won't effect it because the spell can't affect anything inside the globe. As a DM, that one is the first thing I would have a lich do if combat was imminent, because that's what I would do if I were a lich.

If someone grapples it, it can immediately use a legendary action (assuming it still has one) to do a paralyzing touch attack. +12 to hit, so they have a pretty decent chance of hitting, which will do damage and can paralyze the person if they fail their constitution saving throw. If they are paralyzed, they aren't going to be grappling any more (incapacitated), so the grapple is done. I'm not saying this is a horrible plan against a lich, but I don't think that it can be said to be humiliating the lich.

[DwarfFighter]

As has been pointed out, this surely isn't a problem before it actually becomes a problem, right?

But it got me thinking about a house rule to address this:

"When making an ability check, a d20 roll of 1-x counts a a roll of 0."

I'm not talking about an automatic failure here, you just add your modifiers to that 0 and hope to beat the DC or the opposed check as normal.

How would that affect opposed roll. Let me see....


Code in PowerShell. You can probably run this on your Windows PC.


function RollEm($modA = 0, $modB = 0, $countAsZeroUpper = 0)
{
$winA = 0;
$winB = 0;
$draw = 0;
for ($d20A = 1; $d20A -le 20; $d20A++)
{
for ($d20B = 1; $d20B -le 20; $d20B++)
{
$a = $d20A;
if ($d20A -le $countAsZeroUpper) { $a = 0 }
$a = $a + $modA;

$b = $d20B;
if ($d20B -le $countAsZeroUpper) { $b = 0 }
$b = $b + $modB;

if ($a -gt $b) { $winA++ }
elseif ($b -gt $a) { $winB++ }
else { $draw++ }
}
}
Write-Host "A win count: $winA";
Write-Host "B win count: $winB";
Write-Host "Draws: $draw";
}


Well, there is a slight difference. Compare a normal opposed check when the difference in modifiers are +12 vs +0, vs a house-rule opposed check where rolls of 1-4 count as 0 before modifiers:



> RollEm -modA 12 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 364
B win count: 28
Draws: 8

> RollEm -modA 12 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 354
B win count: 38
Draws: 8


Not a huge difference.

Weirdly, this house rule that was intended to make things a bit more fair for the underdog actually seems to have the opposite effect if the other character has a slight bonus: The top dog's chances actually improve slightly while his bonus is within the "counts-as-zero" window.



> RollEm -modA 5 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 280
B win count: 105
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 5 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 270
B win count: 115
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 4 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 264
B win count: 120
Draws: 16

> RollEm -modA 4 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 258
B win count: 130
Draws: 12


> RollEm -modA 3 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 247
B win count: 136
Draws: 17

> RollEm -modA 3 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 245
B win count: 142
Draws: 13

> RollEm -modA 2 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 229
B win count: 153
Draws: 18

> RollEm -modA 2 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 231
B win count: 155
Draws: 14


> RollEm -modA 1 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 210
B win count: 171
Draws: 19

> RollEm -modA 1 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 216
B win count: 169
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 0 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 190
B win count: 190
Draws: 20

> RollEm -modA 0 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 184
B win count: 184
Draws: 32



*sigh* It seemed like a good idea on paper, but it's probably not worth adding this complexity when the results are counter-intuitive.

-DF

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As has been pointed out, this surely isn't a problem before it actually becomes a problem, right?

But it got me thinking about a house rule to address this:

"When making an ability check, a d20 roll of 1-x counts a a roll of 0."

I'm not talking about an automatic failure here, you just add your modifiers to that 0 and hope to beat the DC or the opposed check as normal.

How would that affect opposed roll. Let me see....


Code in PowerShell. You can probably run this on your Windows PC.


function RollEm($modA = 0, $modB = 0, $countAsZeroUpper = 0)
{
$winA = 0;
$winB = 0;
$draw = 0;
for ($d20A = 1; $d20A -le 20; $d20A++)
{
for ($d20B = 1; $d20B -le 20; $d20B++)
{
$a = $d20A;
if ($d20A -le $countAsZeroUpper) { $a = 0 }
$a = $a + $modA;

$b = $d20B;
if ($d20B -le $countAsZeroUpper) { $b = 0 }
$b = $b + $modB;

if ($a -gt $b) { $winA++ }
elseif ($b -gt $a) { $winB++ }
else { $draw++ }
}
}
Write-Host "A win count: $winA";
Write-Host "B win count: $winB";
Write-Host "Draws: $draw";
}


Well, there is a slight difference. Compare a normal opposed check when the difference in modifiers are +12 vs +0, vs a house-rule opposed check where rolls of 1-4 count as 0 before modifiers:



> RollEm -modA 12 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 364
B win count: 28
Draws: 8

> RollEm -modA 12 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 354
B win count: 38
Draws: 8


Not a huge difference.

Weirdly, this house rule that was intended to make things a bit more fair for the underdog actually seems to have the opposite effect if the other character has a slight bonus: The top dog's chances actually improve slightly while his bonus is within the "counts-as-zero" window.



> RollEm -modA 5 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 280
B win count: 105
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 5 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 270
B win count: 115
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 4 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 264
B win count: 120
Draws: 16

> RollEm -modA 4 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 258
B win count: 130
Draws: 12


> RollEm -modA 3 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 247
B win count: 136
Draws: 17

> RollEm -modA 3 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 245
B win count: 142
Draws: 13

> RollEm -modA 2 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 229
B win count: 153
Draws: 18

> RollEm -modA 2 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 231
B win count: 155
Draws: 14


> RollEm -modA 1 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 210
B win count: 171
Draws: 19

> RollEm -modA 1 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 216
B win count: 169
Draws: 15

> RollEm -modA 0 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 0
A win count: 190
B win count: 190
Draws: 20

> RollEm -modA 0 -modB 0 -countAsZeroUpper 4
A win count: 184
B win count: 184
Draws: 32



*sigh* It seemed like a good idea on paper, but it's probably not worth adding this complexity when the results are counter-intuitive.

-DF

We just make 1s failures and 20s success at our table (though 20 is only a regular hit, not a crit if it would have otherwise missed). I'm aware it's not RAW in 5e, but it does seem to meet the intent of bounded accuracy, and quite frankly things like expertise and automatic failures/ success don't.
Otherwise, I'd agree with what others have written. Mixing up encounters is always good and there is a pretty significant cost for grappling, though I do enforce the encumbrance rules if trying to move another creature: (that weight is added to weight carried to determine potential penalties.)

[Pex]

My barbarian (multiclassed a bit) has +17 Athletics and can roll with advantage. I very rarely lose a contested roll. Solution? I do what I do, and the party does what they need to do. Just recently we had an encounter. We're in a trapped magical ingredients storage room filling with poisonous gas. We have a wind source to keep the gas at bay. I wrestle an iron golem to the ground and restrain it, letting the rogue attack with advantage and sneak attack. The cleric and fighter with spells and what ever is in the room deal with the Prismatic Wall blocking our way. The druid wild shapes into an earth elemental digging an alternative method of egress. The monk, immune to poison, went into the air vents to disable whatever was pumping in the poison gas. There's more to the encounter than that, but the point is we all do what we do best. I built my character to be Big Strong Man. I get to be Big Strong Man. Let the player be Big Strong Man in your game.

[DarknessEternal]

Just finished a campaign wherein there was a PC who was a super grappler. I changed nothing and made no encounter preparation because of this. He grappled and made prone nearly every thing within his size limitations. It was fine, and also hilarious, when he leapt into the air and effectively hurled a pit fiend to the ground.

[MrCharlie]

A silence spell that the lich does not use counterspell on will eliminate most of its choices, sure. I believe that if the lich has a globe of invulnerability up, though, the silence spell won't effect it because the spell can't affect anything inside the globe. As a DM, that one is the first thing I would have a lich do if combat was imminent, because that's what I would do if I were a lich.

If someone grapples it, it can immediately use a legendary action (assuming it still has one) to do a paralyzing touch attack. +12 to hit, so they have a pretty decent chance of hitting, which will do damage and can paralyze the person if they fail their constitution saving throw. If they are paralyzed, they aren't going to be grappling any more (incapacitated), so the grapple is done. I'm not saying this is a horrible plan against a lich, but I don't think that it can be said to be humiliating the lich.
I mean, globe is certainly a spell to use if you overpower your opponents, but i've basically never seen people remember it exists. And silence has a greater range than you can counterspell.

The paralyzing touch is a fine example of why good monsters typically do have backup plans, but +12 isn't a guarantee of a hit and DC 18 isn't that hard for a martial to hit, typically. Stack those defenses and the lich is much less likely to actually escape than you'd think. If settle for a "sortuve" guaranteed grapple and make the grappler a fighter or Barbarian we can assume a 16 AC or better and somewhere around a +8 or +9 CON save. Taking a 16 AC and +9 CON, we see that the chance of a successful paralyze is (17/20) * (8/20) or 34% on each attack. A lich can only do this twice in a round, giving them only 60% odds against our hypothetical grappler each round with legendary actions and actions. If our grappler has a good AC or a great CON save these numbers become worse rapidly. Given that grappling is a low investment build that generally works on tanks whom can invest in AC to make those odds even worse, we can rapidly get to the point where it's as low as 20% per round, just by increasing AC to 20+.

Even rogue builds whom can get guaranteed grapples early can get CON saves through multiclasses, and probably should-regardless the liches odds of escaping a conventional grapple by a competent grappler are mediocre, and this mini-thread is about how grapplers can humiliate certain encounters and this isn't a bad thing, not the guaranteed builds.

So within this hypothetical a legendary monster has about 50-50 odds or worse of getting out a grapple from a single player each round, and is doing 20 damage a round while trying this. That's pretty humiliating, particularly when you add in other characters grappling or otherwise limiting the liches movement-regardless the grappler has done his job and completely negated all attention from his allies for a round.

Again, best case scenario. Many monsters are more capable than this and it does require a (fairly common) 2nd level spell. But it emphasizes what a grappler is capable of. But the real take away is probably that it's hard to actually have a zero-escape grapple encounter, where the grappler can engage a grapple against a foe whom both cares and cannot get away with some feature or by retaliating against the grappler with extreme prejudice. Hence grappler builds, while situationally impressive and excellent tanks, aren't overpowered in practice.

[DoctorArek]

I mean, globe is certainly a spell to use if you overpower your opponents, but i've basically never seen people remember it exists. And silence has a greater range than you can counterspell.

The paralyzing touch is a fine example of why good monsters typically do have backup plans, but +12 isn't a guarantee of a hit and DC 18 isn't that hard for a martial to hit, typically. Stack those defenses and the lich is much less likely to actually escape than you'd think. If settle for a "sortuve" guaranteed grapple and make the grappler a fighter or Barbarian we can assume a 16 AC or better and somewhere around a +8 or +9 CON save. Taking a 16 AC and +9 CON, we see that the chance of a successful paralyze is (17/20) * (8/20) or 34% on each attack. A lich can only do this twice in a round, giving them only 60% odds against our hypothetical grappler each round with legendary actions and actions. If our grappler has a good AC or a great CON save these numbers become worse rapidly. Given that grappling is a low investment build that generally works on tanks whom can invest in AC to make those odds even worse, we can rapidly get to the point where it's as low as 20% per round, just by increasing AC to 20+.

Even rogue builds whom can get guaranteed grapples early can get CON saves through multiclasses, and probably should-regardless the liches odds of escaping a conventional grapple by a competent grappler are mediocre, and this mini-thread is about how grapplers can humiliate certain encounters and this isn't a bad thing, not the guaranteed builds.

So within this hypothetical a legendary monster has about 50-50 odds or worse of getting out a grapple from a single player each round, and is doing 20 damage a round while trying this. That's pretty humiliating, particularly when you add in other characters grappling or otherwise limiting the liches movement-regardless the grappler has done his job and completely negated all attention from his allies for a round.

Again, best case scenario. Many monsters are more capable than this and it does require a (fairly common) 2nd level spell. But it emphasizes what a grappler is capable of. But the real take away is probably that it's hard to actually have a zero-escape grapple encounter, where the grappler can engage a grapple against a foe whom both cares and cannot get away with some feature or by retaliating against the grappler with extreme prejudice. Hence grappler builds, while situationally impressive and excellent tanks, aren't overpowered in practice.

Paralyze touch is ok, but shoved grappled also has disadvantage on attack. Plus if it's Fighter (like Rune Knight) he has at least 20 AC at point when you meet something like Lich in battle. So Lich with disadvantage would have to roll min. 8 with disadvantage which means he has 42% chance. However at this point Fighter or Barb will have at least 18 CON if not 20 and proficiency. Not counting any sort of bless, magic items, class features etc. Fighter would have Indomitable at this points. So paralyze 18 DC for 18 CON with Proficiecny +4/5 has +8/9 to CON save. So 55/60% chance of success. If he fails he can use Indomitable, which is basically advantage (since you already failed) - this gives total of 75% success. If he is Rune Knight he can use Storm Rune to give himself advantage on that saving throw + Indomitable if he fails, which means now 18 CON RK with Storm Rune on has around 95% of passing that Paralyze touch.

With Barbarian it looks better for Lich to get out of grapple.

[MrCharlie]

Paralyze touch is ok, but shoved grappled also has disadvantage on attack. Plus if it's Fighter (like Rune Knight) he has at least 20 AC at point when you meet something like Lich in battle. So Lich with disadvantage would have to roll min. 8 with disadvantage which means he has 42% chance. However at this point Fighter or Barb will have at least 18 CON if not 20 and proficiency. Not counting any sort of bless, magic items, class features etc. Fighter would have Indomitable at this points. So paralyze 18 DC for 18 CON with Proficiecny +4/5 has +8/9 to CON save. So 55/60% chance of success. If he fails he can use Indomitable, which is basically advantage (since you already failed) - this gives total of 75% success. If he is Rune Knight he can use Storm Rune to give himself advantage on that saving throw + Indomitable if he fails, which means now 18 CON RK with Storm Rune on has around 95% of passing that Paralyze touch.

With Barbarian it looks better for Lich to get out of grapple.
If you account for the nested probability, that's a 42% chance to hit times a 40% chance for the target to fail its save baseline, for a total success chance of only 16% per action. The lich has like a 30% chance of getting out over the course of two paralyzing touch attacks. Accounting for anything that makes this save better or the fighter AC better starts pushing this into true humiliating range-and my personal experience with this tactic was on an fighter with a 22 AC, to explain where my humiliation comment came from. Once the chance of hitting becomes poor you start dealing with massively unlikely escape attempts.

...Plus, as we haven't mentioned yet, our poor lich is to slow to escape the silence if they start prone. So they have a poor chance of disabling the fighter, and if they do they have to make enough distance in one round to escape the silence which is only possible if they disabled them with the legendary action and use their own action to dash. If they don't escape entirely the fighter may actually be able to chase them down and start the grapple pain train all over again.

All while the lich is basically dueling a single fighter.

Mind you, the liches paralyzing touch probably stops a level one fighter from pulling this off. You'd need at least the resources of a level five fighter to have any reasonable chance of winning, and it gets dicey with a CON save that low. You can absolutely do this to, say, an archmage though, as their only recourse is to dagger you to death.

[da newt]

"If someone grapples it, it can immediately use a legendary action (assuming it still has one) to do a paralyzing touch attack."

Just for clarity: NO it cannot 'immediately' use it's LA - it has to wait until the end of the PC's turn. Hypothetically, a successful grapple by a lvl 11 fighter with their first attack, might have to absorb 2 attacks, then 3 more from action surge, and a BA before it can ATTEMPT to succeed with a LA.

[Unoriginal]

You know, another way to spice things up is to give expertise in Athletics to a few enemies, too.

No reason to have the PC be the only wrestler around. In fact having someone else recognize the PC as a pretty great wrestler and then going "but you know what? I'm pretty great too" would be something I'd love as a player (obviously, depends on tastes).

You can also give the NPC a couple grappling/wrestling moves, making the encounter even more menorable.

[Darth Credence]

"If someone grapples it, it can immediately use a legendary action (assuming it still has one) to do a paralyzing touch attack."

Just for clarity: NO it cannot 'immediately' use it's LA - it has to wait until the end of the PC's turn. Hypothetically, a successful grapple by a lvl 11 fighter with their first attack, might have to absorb 2 attacks, then 3 more from action surge, and a BA before it can ATTEMPT to succeed with a LA.

Sorry, by immediately I meant at the end of that players turn, rather than waiting for its next turn.

And we have still ignored globe of invulnerability here. Take away the ability to silence the lich, and it has all of its spells. This is a bad idea for a party below level 10, as that's probably where you need to get to keep the grappler from being instakilled by power word kill. Below level 15, they could probably power word stun them to break the grapple and have a turn where they can't do anything. If the grappler keeps coming, and the lich can survive long enough to hit them with a few things first, even a level 20 character can be brought low enough for power word kill to take them out. And if nothing else, they can break a grapple at least three times with dimension door - they don't have to go far with that, just enough to break the grapple, so they can remain inside their globe and not be silenced. Or they could dimension door to the person concentrating on silence and attack them. Or they could accept they are being grappled and unleash spells at the wizard until they drop.

And if it's in its lair, oh boy. Potions, scrolls, wands, staffs are all listed as things that the lich has multiples of, and that they are willing to use. It would hardly be cheating on the DMs part to have these available, and if that blows up a grappler's plans, I don't think it can be said that the DM is metagaming. I certainly wouldn't have any particular things available to counter the plan, but I'd randomly roll and make sure they had all of their attunement slots filled. Then adding the lair actions, that can be done whether silence happened or not, it can alternate between the negative tether and the spirits of the dead coming and attacking. Attach the negative tether to the party's magic user, and everyone is going to think twice about whether or not to actually damage the lich this turn. It seems like a lot of the ideas of a grappler being a problem for a lich relies on the lich being played like an idiot.

[dmhelp]

I mean really grapple should have been str plus prof to hit ac and opponent chooses str or dex save (8 + prof + str dc to avoid or break) to be consistent with the rest of the game.

The dms job is to challenge the players. By the book liches are fine in single classed no feat games. I’d probably let the players steamroll the easy content. If the players just grapple/silence everything the lich probably needs pam, sentinel, warcaster, and a 6 paladin splash and foresight precast to put it on a level playing field with the party optimization going on.

[MrCharlie]

Sorry, by immediately I meant at the end of that players turn, rather than waiting for its next turn.

And we have still ignored globe of invulnerability here. Take away the ability to silence the lich, and it has all of its spells. This is a bad idea for a party below level 10, as that's probably where you need to get to keep the grappler from being instakilled by power word kill. Below level 15, they could probably power word stun them to break the grapple and have a turn where they can't do anything. If the grappler keeps coming, and the lich can survive long enough to hit them with a few things first, even a level 20 character can be brought low enough for power word kill to take them out. And if nothing else, they can break a grapple at least three times with dimension door - they don't have to go far with that, just enough to break the grapple, so they can remain inside their globe and not be silenced. Or they could dimension door to the person concentrating on silence and attack them. Or they could accept they are being grappled and unleash spells at the wizard until they drop.

And if it's in its lair, oh boy. Potions, scrolls, wands, staffs are all listed as things that the lich has multiples of, and that they are willing to use. It would hardly be cheating on the DMs part to have these available, and if that blows up a grappler's plans, I don't think it can be said that the DM is metagaming. I certainly wouldn't have any particular things available to counter the plan, but I'd randomly roll and make sure they had all of their attunement slots filled. Then adding the lair actions, that can be done whether silence happened or not, it can alternate between the negative tether and the spirits of the dead coming and attacking. Attach the negative tether to the party's magic user, and everyone is going to think twice about whether or not to actually damage the lich this turn. It seems like a lot of the ideas of a grappler being a problem for a lich relies on the lich being played like an idiot.
Three things.

One, we can safely ignore globe because A. We aren't accounting for initiative, of which the lich has a mediocre one so it's legitimately a random factor here if the globe is even up, B. No one remembers globe exists, C. Globe can be dispelled, and D. A grappler can move the lich out of globe, which is smaller than silence.

Two, it's absolutely a horrible idea to try to attack a lich below level 10, great tactics or no. The lich just needs to win initiative and everyone is dead. But it's possible to win with tactics like grappling and silence.

Three, now we've got to the plot of this thread. Let me emphasize this.
Do. Not. Do. This. Lightly.
Don't negate a characters build, intentionally, with DM fiat regarding enemies having magic items or pre-cast spells just because it's "silly". It's really bad form. Don't give them potions or items that just make them immune to grapple because the grappler is a concern and might "ruin" your encounter.

The lich might have some of those things, sure. Is it liable to be holding them that day? Are you really going to sit there and say is scries on the party to justify metagaming that? Maybe it makes "sense", but trust me, it feels awful when you just face complete immunity to your main tactic, rather than some countermeasure you can theoretically overcome.

Further, if the lich was meant to have full attunement, it would have full attunement in it's stat box. Some NPCs do actually have attuned items in their boxes which do contribute to their listed CR.

On the other hand, yeah, lair actions do make this much harder unless the characters are closer to appropriate level. The real kicker is that 52 damage, the tether is a non-concern unless the party is truly low level because they can just cure wounds or revive a downed member, as long as it isn't the grappler. And if the grappler and lich are taking equal damage it's probably a winning situation for the party. The tether is, generally, a psychological tactic rather than an effective one.

That 52 damage, on the other hand, really requires you to have a decent fighter build to really punch outside of your weight class, and the rest of the party to be piling on the damage while the lich is negated. It's still plausible to beat it, and this is still a great example of where punching outside your weight class is possible but incredibly risky and tough.

So, to summarize-the idea of a grappler being a problem for a lich because the lich is an idiot is, frankly, wrong. You're playing fast and loose with basically everything other than the lair actions when you say that, and in the situations where a lich really does not have to care about a grappler at all you've probably made it a much higher CR, in the range of the mid 20's versus the low 20's in it's stat block.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

You know, another way to spice things up is to give expertise in Athletics to a few enemies, too.

No reason to have the PC be the only wrestler around. In fact having someone else recognize the PC as a pretty great wrestler and then going "but you know what? I'm pretty great too" would be something I'd love as a player (obviously, depends on tastes).

You can also give the NPC a couple grappling/wrestling moves, making the encounter even more menorable.

100% agreed with this. It seems to me most/ all beasts would be at least be proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics. I find many/ most things in the MM should be a bit more resistant to being chucked around than they currently are.

[Zaile]

It is SUPER easy to counter grappling. If you always have enemies adjacent to each other, they can shove each other, willingly fail, and bam, grapple broken.

Size Huge requires giant might or enlarge. Gargantuan requires both. Good luck maintaining concentration vs Gargantuan damage.

Also EB repelling, thunderwave, telekinetic feat, etc. have also been mentioned.

Also flying enemies with ranged weapons. Or on ceilings, or raised areas.

Freedom of movement in 5e is NOT 3e version. You CAN grapple a creature under it and you get 1 turn with them. They only escape on their turn. Grapple, prone, drag to party, repeat next turn.

Just finished Tomb of Annihilation with a Rune Knight/War Wiz grappler. We had a blast, but it was not being beneficial to grapple every combat. We had enough ranged that I had to pick the most dangerous thing and tie it down while they rest of the party took out the rest. Worked great, but even with prone I took A LOT of damage. Dropped to 0 at least five times.

My DM got a little frustrated halfway through and all of a sudden EVERYTHING had 12+ to athletics, even wizards. I almost quit because this was a direct nerf on what I spent a class, subclass, multiclass, and 2 feats on. If it wasn't for shadow blade I was just "attack 1d8+5, attack 1d8+5" otherwise. Boring as an NPC, even with shadow blade. (Side note I live this spell so much now)

The monsters who have the biggest bonus to Athletics are giants. Storm has a +14 IRRC. In general, ANY str character (or astral monk) who gets expertise will win contests more often than not. Don't fight with the player, but just have the enemies learn and adapt, but don't isolate the player. In the end let the guy who decided to forgo three attacks that deal 90 damage or game-breaking spells shine.

[Zaile]

100% agreed with this. It seems to me most/ all beasts would be at least be proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics. I find many/ most things in the MM should be a bit more resistant to being chucked around than they currently are.

I think almost all of the giants have it. Not a bad idea, especially for BBEG's BSF bodyguards.

[Foxhound438]

- Some things in the monster manual are really strong. Like, REALLY strong. Even with a +17 to your check, some monsters are also getting similar bonuses.

- Bigger enemies are harder to grab. Unless you're looking at stacking size changes, a gargantuan creature can't be grappled by any normal race. (notably, rune knight's growth doesn't make you bigger if you're already large. I could see arguing that if you use that first and then cast enlarge it would work, as it seems it would by RAW, but at the same time as a DM you can rule that it's not intended to let you become huge so it doesn't. Not sure if I would or not, honestly if a player took both of those things and was excited to make them stack I'd probably not argue about it.)

- Teleportation

- Shoving a creature that's grappling you so that you're out of their range works as well, and can be done with effects that don't require a strength contest. Something like a dragon's wing attack comes to mind, but thunderwave is of course a good option for any spellcaster.

- Don't make 1 monster encounters.

Of course, you wouldn't want to spam any combination of these at your player (save maybe the last thing), metagaming against one player can ruin a game altogether for them. It'd be like giving every enemy in your game Alert because one of the players built a rogue, or making every enemy know counterspell because one player built a wizard.

[sophontteks]

- Some things in the monster manual are really strong. Like, REALLY strong. Even with a +17 to your check, some monsters are also getting similar bonuses.

What monsters are matching this?
The demogorgon has +8, so do Red dragons. Purple worms get +9.

Athletics is a rare skill for monsters. The only limitation is size really.

[JoeJ]

Sometimes all you need to do is increase the number of opponents. When the party has their climactic face off against the BBEG, the BBEG's two top lieutenants, and 20 or so minions, a PC grappler can do epic things without taking the spotlight away from the epic things the other PCs are doing.

[Darth Credence]

Three things.

One, we can safely ignore globe because A. We aren't accounting for initiative, of which the lich has a mediocre one so it's legitimately a random factor here if the globe is even up, B. No one remembers globe exists, C. Globe can be dispelled, and D. A grappler can move the lich out of globe, which is smaller than silence.

Two, it's absolutely a horrible idea to try to attack a lich below level 10, great tactics or no. The lich just needs to win initiative and everyone is dead. But it's possible to win with tactics like grappling and silence.

Three, now we've got to the plot of this thread. Let me emphasize this.
Do. Not. Do. This. Lightly.
Don't negate a characters build, intentionally, with DM fiat regarding enemies having magic items or pre-cast spells just because it's "silly". It's really bad form. Don't give them potions or items that just make them immune to grapple because the grappler is a concern and might "ruin" your encounter.

The lich might have some of those things, sure. Is it liable to be holding them that day? Are you really going to sit there and say is scries on the party to justify metagaming that? Maybe it makes "sense", but trust me, it feels awful when you just face complete immunity to your main tactic, rather than some countermeasure you can theoretically overcome.

Further, if the lich was meant to have full attunement, it would have full attunement in it's stat box. Some NPCs do actually have attuned items in their boxes which do contribute to their listed CR.

On the other hand, yeah, lair actions do make this much harder unless the characters are closer to appropriate level. The real kicker is that 52 damage, the tether is a non-concern unless the party is truly low level because they can just cure wounds or revive a downed member, as long as it isn't the grappler. And if the grappler and lich are taking equal damage it's probably a winning situation for the party. The tether is, generally, a psychological tactic rather than an effective one.

That 52 damage, on the other hand, really requires you to have a decent fighter build to really punch outside of your weight class, and the rest of the party to be piling on the damage while the lich is negated. It's still plausible to beat it, and this is still a great example of where punching outside your weight class is possible but incredibly risky and tough.

So, to summarize-the idea of a grappler being a problem for a lich because the lich is an idiot is, frankly, wrong. You're playing fast and loose with basically everything other than the lair actions when you say that, and in the situations where a lich really does not have to care about a grappler at all you've probably made it a much higher CR, in the range of the mid 20's versus the low 20's in it's stat block.

One - you can only ignore globe of invulnerability if you make the lich an idiot. If you are a lich in your lair, no one is walking in on you unannounced (if they do manage to pull it off, then they wouldn't precast globe) and if you know things are coming to kill you, you cast globe before they come in and you immediately attack. That's not metagaming, that's reasonable tactics from an intelligent being. Yes it can be dispelled, but that can be counterspelled, and the only way that it matters that counterspell is a shorter range is if the layout of where the battle occurs allows for that range to matter. I generally don't have a lot of interior rooms that are big enough that someone can be much more than 60 feet away, so counterspell is going to be available unless the wizard stays in the hall.

Two - five level 15 characters are likely going to defeat a lich regardless, so the entire concept that they can be embarrassed by grappling and silence revolves around them being lower level than that.

Three - at no point did I say I would specifically build the lich to counter grapplers. But if you read the text on a lich, it says "Liches collect spells and magic items. In addition to its spell repertoire, a lich has ready access to potions, scrolls, libraries of spellbooks, one or more wands, and perhaps a staff or two. It has no qualms about putting these treasures to use whenever its lair comes under attack." Most wands and staffs require attunement, so when the text calls out that they have these items and are willing to use them, it is saying to me that they attune things. It will keep those things in its lair, and when a party of adventurers enters its lair and starts killing its minions on the way to it, it is going to grab them. And it is going to use them. I did specifically say that the items would be randomly chosen from a lair treasure table. If none of them help against a grappler, so be it, but if any of them do, so be it as well.

I think you're wrong about tether - if the person tethered is the party's caster and hitting the lich is shown to damage the caster, I'd certainly come up with a different plan than attacking the lich for damage that round. Yes, it's a psychological tactic, and it's one that would, IMO, work if people were really in that world. But that's a personal thing, so I'll let that go.

So, yes, it does require the lich to be an idiot. From the very beginning, because your base argument relies on a spell it would use to prevent your plan, that is listed in the stat box, as being something that everyone forgets about. A lich is highly intelligent - it isn't going to forget about a spell that will save its life unless it is being played as an idiot.

[OldTrees1]

With all the ways to get expertise in athletics +/- reliable talent (and now rune knight for further size changes), how do people handle no failure grapple/shove when they are DMing?

Do you just plan on a few creatures (or the bbeg) being locked down with adv/disadv stacked against them?

Is any boost to the under picked grappler/tavern brawler feats too good when it can be stacked w expertise athletics?


As a DM I solved this by unlocking the ability to grapple larger creatures (with degrees of success based on how much you beat the opposed check VS how much bigger they are) and then relish the Barbarian being able to confidently grapple/shove them. This allows the grappler to grow in multiple directions (bigger creatures and more reliable interesting combat options).