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Cade
2007-11-08, 01:00 AM
I am needing to make a new character for a campaign, and so I thought I would try to do something I have not really seen before. My basic thoughts were to play a paladin, not only without a stick up his ass, but without any usual characteristics of the class.

The idea as it stands so far is a human paladin, aged not much more than 16 or 17. He will have just finished his training from the town's paladin, making him the newest (and superfluous) crusader around. Thus he wanders.

He's keeping a secret, though. Not once has he felt any sort of 'call' as the player's handbook describes it, that led him to his new vocation. He desperately wants to help, well, everyone; he has a strong, instinctual sense of morals; and can even wield the light (or maybe something akin to it, unknown to him). But the pull of the gods and the holy light have never spoken to him. All he wants is to help. But what would the people who trust him think?

"Is it worth keeping this secret?" Is the internal character struggle I want to have going, but I know I'm missing a few things. For one thing, why he doesn't just exist as a tricked out lawful good fighter. Or a cleric, or something. Also, is this even RAW worthy? Any improvements/better motive?

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-08, 01:02 AM
To tell the truth I rarely ever am that much of a stickler for my player's backgrounds. So... depends on your DM I guess. If it were me I really wouldn't care. lol

Zincorium
2007-11-08, 01:16 AM
I'd say first things first is check with your DM. This is probably the most important step for anyone playing a paladin, because conflict on 'what it's all about' can ruin the game for you, but especially because you've got a different slant on it in terms of flavor.

Since you haven't heard any sort of 'call' yet, it really doesn't make much sense to have levels in cleric or paladin. Training is one thing, those classes have abilities which stem directly and unerringly from the object of their devotion (deity, cause, what have you). Without that strong connection, why would you have any of those characteristics? You'd need an answer to that, and it's plain you haven't gotten any good ones.

Mechanically, it isn't as though starting with a few levels of fighter and changing into paladin later (once you've decided on going for it) is going to hurt you that badly, Paladin's are notorious for a massive spread of dead or mostly dead levels after fifth.

Quietus
2007-11-08, 01:21 AM
I am needing to make a new character for a campaign, and so I thought I would try to do something I have not really seen before. My basic thoughts were to play a paladin, not only without a stick up his ass, but without any usual characteristics of the class.

The idea as it stands so far is a human paladin, aged not much more than 16 or 17. He will have just finished his training from the town's paladin, making him the newest (and superfluous) crusader around. Thus he wanders.

He's keeping a secret, though. Not once has he felt any sort of 'call' as the player's handbook describes it, that led him to his new vocation. He desperately wants to help, well, everyone; he has a strong, instinctual sense of morals; and can even wield the light (or maybe something akin to it, unknown to him). But the pull of the gods and the holy light have never spoken to him. All he wants is to help. But what would the people who trust him think?

"Is it worth keeping this secret?" Is the internal character struggle I want to have going, but I know I'm missing a few things. For one thing, why he doesn't just exist as a tricked out lawful good fighter. Or a cleric, or something. Also, is this even RAW worthy? Any improvements/better motive?

I guess the biggest thing here is... are people recognized by their vocation, or by their name/reputation in this world? In some worlds, a Cleric is a Cleric, who weilds divine spells as a middleman between their deity and the world. In others, a Cleric is just a guy who preaches the faith - a priest, really.

In this case, it seems like that would only matter in a world where people are recognized by vocation - that is, a Paladin is a guy who can immediately see the evil in people's hearts, can turn that evil against them (via Smite Evil), and as he gains experience, has a divine protection offered only to those most devoted followers of the faith - Divine Grace and whatever their fearlessness is called (can't remember offhand). In that case, sure - you'd have to pretend to be a Paladin.

On the other hand, you can take a world like my Vethedar forums. There, I have a character (who's handled by a co-DM on the boards, I dislike GMPCs) who's a Lawful Good monk, and a devoted worshipper of Fharlanghn. He doesn't identify himself as a Monk - he is, in his mind, a Paladin of Fharlanghn, who travels in an effort to follow his patron's footsteps, and to strike down anyone who takes it upon themselves to prevent others from traveling. He doesn't detect evil, he doesn't cast spells, hell, he isn't even fearless in the same sense that a typical Paladin is. But in Eleak's eyes, Fharlanghn is watching over him, and many of the things he's capable of - or rather, that he'll become capable of - are gifts from him. His high saves are Fharlanghn's grace keeping others from slowing him down, his Improved Grapple feat allows him to get himself out of situations where someone is trying to keep him down, and to subdue people who would seek to take advantage of those less gifted. Should he ever level high enough, he'll see things like Abundant Step and Etherealness as being even more powerful gifts along the same lines.

Temp
2007-11-08, 01:28 AM
Is Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) appropriate for you?

It seems to make more sense all-around than base-class Pally. And it gets an actual spell list--sharing Righteous Might with your Mount? Sure!

No Battle Blessing--unless you want to be cheesy--though...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-08, 01:28 AM
What your character doesn't realize is that he has felt the call. His morals, his desperate desire to help, his devotion to the good of all...that's what being a Paladin is about. No gods chose him, not Tome Archon singled him out for power...but his conscience and sense of duty are a vocation in and of themselves.

He'll angst and fret and conceal his "weakness", only to realize when he needs it most that he has as much right to this "divine" power as any of a god's chosen.


That's how I'd play it, anyway. Up to you where you want to go with it.

tyckspoon
2007-11-08, 01:35 AM
He desperately wants to help, well, everyone; he has a strong, instinctual sense of morals; and can even wield the light (or maybe something akin to it, unknown to him).


Sounds like a Paladin to me. Note that by the core rules, a Paladin is not required to worship or be sponsored by any god. They can be powered solely by their will to do good. Forgotten Realms requires Paladins to follow a god, but then virtually everything has to do with the gods in the Realms. Talk to your DM about swapping out any of the class features that you think don't fit, but other than that I think you'd be ok to run him as a normal Paladin. The character has actually heard and responded to the call- it's inherent in his drive to do good and his choice to learn how to use the abilities of a Paladin. He just didn't get it in one glorious epiphany.. which makes him kind of worried, because that's what his mentor said the call was. So he doubts himself, but he still has Paladinic powers and obeys the Paladin code. To all external measures, he's a Paladin. Probably a better Paladin than ones who are sure of their status as Champion Exemplars of Good, even.

In short, I think you're fine. The self-doubt is not inconsistent with being a Paladin.

Edit: *suffers 10d6 Sudden Strike damage*

AslanCross
2007-11-08, 02:18 AM
What your character doesn't realize is that he has felt the call. His morals, his desperate desire to help, his devotion to the good of all...that's what being a Paladin is about. No gods chose him, not Tome Archon singled him out for power...but his conscience and sense of duty are a vocation in and of themselves.

He'll angst and fret and conceal his "weakness", only to realize when he needs it most that he has as much right to this "divine" power as any of a god's chosen.


That's how I'd play it, anyway. Up to you where you want to go with it.
I agree with this. In fact, IMO it's easier to justify this guy's being a paladin than it is in the case of one of my players.

His paladin is not outwardly religious (though he seems to have a personal relationship with Torm), doesn't make a big show of his morals, and is outwardly sarcastic and lazy. However, he does go to great lengths to show good to evil creatures, even at great personal risk--just that this is all in secret. His current plan involves taking a captured (currently imprisoned and awaiting trial) enemy hobgoblin into his custody and setting him free, in the hopes that this gesture will actually cause a change of heart in the hobgoblin and cause him to rethink his cause. If the hobgoblin just runs away, then he is prepared to face the consequences for it.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-08, 02:21 AM
Hm. It seems like he's missing a step or two in that plan...make that a step or five.

tyckspoon: No way. I'm like, a level 3 ninja at best.

tyckspoon
2007-11-08, 02:26 AM
Heh. Aslan, your player's cunning plan.. methinks it is not thought through all the way. I'd go with ministering to the Hobgoblin in jail after the trial, unless the trial is virtually guaranteed to result in a death sentence (which would be carried out quickly.) If the hobgoblin in question isn't going to get killed, the paladin would have time to talk to him and try to change his mind without annoying anybody else [like the people who were supposed to be imprisoning the hobgoblin.]

On the other hand, visiting a hobgoblin in jail and preaching to him is hard to do secretly.

Nerd-O-Rama: Perhaps, but I got hit by like four people there. I'm lucky it wasn't more.

AslanCross
2007-11-08, 02:54 AM
That's true. He hasn't really laid down everything yet, since we probably won't be back in town for a few more sessions.

Leon
2007-11-08, 03:04 AM
Has left his pager at home

Aquillion
2007-11-08, 03:13 AM
Note that, at least as the fluff is written in the book that I have on hand, it's implied that Paladins are supposed to recognize each other on sight, even between different cultures with different traditions. This would imply that, assuming you haven't actually heard the "call" and responded to it, any actual Paladin you encountered would quickly recognize that something was amiss.

Whether they'd care or not is a different story. But it could be something interesting to play with, even if your character is just paranoid about it.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-08, 04:26 AM
I don't think there's much of a problem. The character never felt the "call", but decided to join paladinhood by his own reasons, by his own merits instead of getting an invitation to attempt the tests. The call thing is just fluff anyway.
About the stick/age thing, I remember one concept suggested that a paladin could come from a more humble origin, like a small village without big knightly orders. His devotion and martial training is enough to be noticed by the higher powers to grant him his powers. Said paladins sometimes not even call themselves typical paladins, but more like warriors that happened to gain a gift from some good deity.

prufock
2007-11-08, 09:52 AM
I had a character - actually, an NPC - like that once. He was an aging dwarf who had followed the light of Pelor for most of his adult life. He was inspired by the actions of an actual paladin of Pelor, a human who had helped his town at one time. The dwarf, Elek, turned from his domestic career to military training. He was involved in some military campaigns, eventually smelling some corruption within his own ranks. He snapped the day he saw his superiors - while they were on a rescue mission to a small dwarven village - kill a dwarf who would certainly have lived with medical attention and take that dwarf's belongings. Including his wife.

Elek, the idealist LG character, ran his captain through with a sword, and fought off several other soldiers in an attempt to save the woman. Unfortunately, she was stabbed - mostly by accident - and died in his arms. Elek was also cut down, and left for dead in the mud.

But Elek was nothing if not determined. As the soldiers left the field of battle, Elek was packing his wound with mud to staunch the bleeding. He lost consciousness, but woke up hours later in a bed, in the care of one of the townspeople. They gave him the name Brightblade; they explained that his sword had shone like the sun when he stood against the soldiers. And so, newly christened Elek Brightblade began to believe that Pelor's light was upon him.

In reality, his sword, which was always spotlessly polished, had simply caught the reflection of the sun at just the right angle to appear to be glowing from some of the townsfolk's position.

Elek really really believed that Pelor was with him, and that he would someday soon become one of the chosen few. He abandoned the military to travel the world and seek his destiny.

His certainty that Pelor was with him led him to be reckless in some situations. Fighting undead, for instance. He would never accept that he was losing, and had to be half-dragged away from battle. He carried a holy symbol which usually did nothing. He always introduced himself as "Elek Brightblade, paladin of Pelor!" In his mind, it wasn't a lie - it was only a matter of time. Though he did, eventually, confide in one of the party members.

However, to add to the mystery, I sometimes burned off a hero point (and I was a little liberal with what they could do) to allow him to display some divine ability. Every now and then, his holy symbol would work. Once in a while he could heal someone just by touching them. Once in a while he could call the fire of Pelor to smite evil.

I built him as pure fighter, until near the end of the campaign. He acquired a weapon called the Flame of Pelor, which had abilities based on the paladin's class abilities. The party went, along with Elek, into the final battle for the multiverse - around level 16 or so. Elek was killed by the big bad, but with his last ounce of strength he managed to distract the evil wizard long enough to allow the party to regroup.

Elek was gone. This wasn't the first time he had died, though. The first time he died he experienced the dreamworld before death - it wasn't a pleasant experience for him, as he felt he had failed in his duty to Pelor. However, he was resurrected that first time, and the party managed to convince him it was only a dream. And he believed it... for a while.

This time, he could not be brought back by mortal magic, divine or arcane.

At this point, I did a stat-switch and converted him to 16-level paladin. He entered the outer court of Pelor as a messenger, returning several times to the party on errands. His personality had turned much less grim, since he felt he had fulfilled his destiny. One of the PCs ran a brothel, and offered Elek two nice dwarven ladies for the evening. Elek accepted, but then only talked to the ladies. The next day their employer, the PC Clay, received news that they had left the business to serve the church. And Elek laughed and laughed...

Man, that was a great campaign. Lasted over a year, rotated a few players, yet managed to flow smoothly. I was really on my game that year.

Anyway, nostalgia aside, I know your character is a little different, but maybe this will give you some ideas.

Fawsto
2007-11-08, 11:17 AM
Receiving the Call is not something like a direct conversation with a God..

<"Godalmighty40" enters the chat>
-"Godalmighty40": Hey, you. Are you interested in fighting evil for the great cause of good and justice?
-"Paladinwannabe20": Oh, well, pehaps, what I will get?
-"Godalmighty40": Well, you will be able to Detect Evil and Destroy it, and pehaps cast a few divine spells, sounds good doesn't it?
-"Paladinwannabe20": Yeah, seems nice. When do I start?

Receiving the Call is much more personal. It maybe a slight change on the way the character views the realations between people, the urge to help the needing, or even something a lot more dramatic like seeing people sufering in the hands of a Evil and make a oath to fight it back.

Most of times the Gods won't speak with you, even being a chosen one, you are quite new to the group of good guys. The Deities want to see if they can trust you before trying some closer conection.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-08, 11:28 AM
This guy sounds enormously more like a paladin to me than the majority of pallies I've seen portrayed. He is pretty much exactly what I'd want in a paladin player.

Just have the rest of the world treat him as a paladin, including angels and paladins. If he starts questioning it have them sit him down and talk to him nicely, they're LG afterall, that the call doesn't have to be a consious level one.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-08, 03:40 PM
I like it.

What would probably happen is that you'll get that thing saying that you had already felt the call if the you get to play the character. I'm likely to use Paladins as enforcers of tyrannous gods. Obedience is demanded, rather than being a reasonable person to others. It would terrify them and their agents, when such a character chooses against their demands, and the power still remains. Nothing is so terrifying to an overlord as a lack of control.

Cade
2007-11-08, 08:34 PM
Thanks everyone. I have a pretty good idea about what to do now, so the session should be good on my end.

Kizara
2007-11-08, 09:50 PM
I agree with this. In fact, IMO it's easier to justify this guy's being a paladin than it is in the case of one of my players.

His paladin is not outwardly religious (though he seems to have a personal relationship with Torm), doesn't make a big show of his morals, and is outwardly sarcastic and lazy. However, he does go to great lengths to show good to evil creatures, even at great personal risk--just that this is all in secret. His current plan involves taking a captured (currently imprisoned and awaiting trial) enemy hobgoblin into his custody and setting him free, in the hopes that this gesture will actually cause a change of heart in the hobgoblin and cause him to rethink his cause. If the hobgoblin just runs away, then he is prepared to face the consequences for it.

This is a great description of a paladin of freedom.

Just about nothing is Lawful in this guy's behavior, he isn't even consistantly goodly (just isn't evil). I really hope you don't think that "respecting legitimate authority" somehow involves freeing lawfully imprisoned evil beings, regardless of motives.

Duaneyo1
2007-11-09, 12:14 AM
I think Cade's background is an excellent start for a Paladin. Start as a fighter if you want, but a Paladin in 3.5 doesn't gain any divine abilities for a few levels. How many reluctant heroes can we remember from popular fiction? Another interesting alternative is a character that is a little bit older and more experienced; he discovers that he has the "calling" but has other responsibilities. Such commitments can include a family, being a public official, successful tradesman, or a low level noble where commoners rely on you for protection. Either way part of the story will be about "learning" to be a hero.

tyckspoon
2007-11-09, 12:26 AM
I think Cade's background is an excellent start for a Paladin. Start as a fighter if you want, but a Paladin in 3.5 doesn't gain any divine abilities for a few levels.

Er.. they get Smite, Detect Evil, and a detectable Aura of Good at first level. Second level is Divine Grace and holy healing, otherwise known as Lay on Hands. Spellcasting and Turn Undead don't kick in until fourth, but divinely-granted abilities are there from the start.

herrhauptmann
2007-11-09, 02:22 AM
Prufock,
Was that character of yours set in The Hunt: Rise of Evil campaign world?

Temp
2007-11-09, 02:27 AM
Second level is Divine Grace and holy healing, otherwise known as Lay on Hands.That's the big 'un. Once you start healing wounds by just touching them, there's no denying that you gots the powah.

'Course, you could just not do anything snazzy until level 4, but at that point it starts getting tricky.

Leliel
2007-11-09, 01:43 PM
Actually, he was chosen.

Chosen by himself that is.

I see a big ol' Aesop about "chosing your own destiny" in the future for your paladin...

MCerberus
2007-11-09, 01:46 PM
Sounds like the Warrior NPC class for this guy. Maybe those levels can retroact into Paladin once he does "get the call".

SadisticFishing
2007-11-09, 01:50 PM
Sounds to me like he's already gotten the call, and just hasn't heard it as such.

That's definately how I would play it