Thurbane's shaper of form early qualification exploit

[Elves]

From Q&A thread:


Say I'm a Bugbear PC with 3 RHD and class levels. I'm progressing in Shaper of Form, and use the Modify Self / Renaissance ability to permanently change myself into an Elf. What happens to my RHD? Do I retain the 3RHD because I started as a Bugbear, or do I lose them because Elves have no RHD?

Text of the class feature:


The shaper of form changes race, gender, or general physical appearance. She cannot change type and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.

The glossary says RHD are "Hit Dice a monster has by virtue of what type of creature it is", and of all racial traits, this class feature only calls out type and stat mods as exceptions. This suggests you lose your RHD if you use this ability to change to a race without any.

So you could begin with x RHD, take a PRC with certain BAB or skill point requirements, take shaper of form 1st and shift to a 0 HD race, and retain the PRC levels for which you no longer qualify. Whether or not you retain your class features from those classes is arguable (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626150-Why-are-PRC-entry-requirements-treated-as-a-build-constraint), but even if you don't, you can eventually regain use of their features. And you do retain their chassis benefits.

Arguably, you could then retrain away the shaper of form level, since its class feature says "The effect is permanent."

This exploit allows builds like wiz1/any PRCs of your choice 19 or wiz 1/shaper of form 1/any PRCs of your choice 18, depending where you stand on that last point.

Shaper of form's only level-prohibitive requirement is skill ranks, which can be easily satisfied by RHD. Its spellcasting requirement is satisfied by 1 level in almost any caster class. Some RHD will satisfy the spellcasting requirement in themselves, meaning you can use this trick for noncasters too.

[Troacctid]

If you're using magazine material anyway, why don't you just qualify with totem druid?

[icefractal]

Doesn't this disqualify itself by saying it can't change type?

The shaper of form changes race, gender, or general physical appearance. She cannot change type and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.

The glossary says RHD are "Hit Dice a monster has by virtue of what type of creature it is", and of all racial traits, this class feature only calls out type and stat mods as exceptions.

Now you can make the case that the first "type" is referring to "Type", as in "Humanoid (goblinoid)", and the second "type" is the more specific meaning like "Bugbear". But it's ambiguous at least.

[Thurbane]

If you're using magazine material anyway, why don't you just qualify with totem druid?

Dragon Compendium is often accepted as "more legal" than magazine only content. Iron Chef, for instance, accepts compendium content, but not magazine only.


Now you can make the case that the first "type" is referring to "Type", as in "Humanoid (goblinoid)", and the second "type" is the more specific meaning like "Bugbear". But it's ambiguous at least.

If that is a valid argument, then let me rephrase the question as going from a Bugbear to a Goblin.

Or going from an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale to a Lupin.

Personally, though, I don't think this is an issue: type (humanoid) is a defined and distinct game term, different than the also defined term subtype (goblinoid).

The example in the class description itself is changing to an Orc...which if the above reading is correct, would only be possible if you were already an Orc?

[Elves]

Doesn't this disqualify itself by saying it can't change type?
It's a case of bad wording, nothing else. By creature type they clearly meant specific creature since you don't gain RHD for having a particular type.

As far as the ability, it specifies only type not subtype and the listed example is changing to an orc which has the orc subtype implying this is intended.


If you're using magazine material anyway, why don't you just qualify with totem druid?
Qualifying with non-inherent/temporary means like items or wild shape is suspect and distasteful in my view.

[Rebel7284]

Oh wow, this class, that was certainly poorly thought out. Can't turn into something with a LA limits it slightly as does keeping the same type, but keeping the old ability scores is pretty awesome. Of course, as with the Lyconthropy trick, I have no idea what happens to the overall XP of the character if they lose HD.

Also, off topic, but Like Begets Like -> Gemstone = doubling your wealth every day. Also available at level 1 of the class.

Of course Ur Priest and Sublime Chord early entry are likely the best with this trick, but plenty of other classes that benefit from early entry especially when Shaper of Form also progresses casting for that critical first level.

[Thurbane]

Oh wow, this class, that was certainly poorly thought out. Can't turn into something with a LA limits it slightly as does keeping the same type, but keeping the old ability scores is pretty awesome. Of course, as with the Lyconthropy trick, I have no idea what happens to the overall XP of the character if they lose HD.

Also, off topic, but Like Begets Like -> Gemstone = doubling your wealth every day. Also available at level 1 of the class.

Of course Ur Priest and Sublime Chord early entry are likely the best with this trick, but plenty of other classes that benefit from early entry especially when Shaper of Form also progresses casting for that critical first level.

It's definitely a class with exploits, which is why I'm interested in it.

Also, unlike almost every other casting PrC in Dragon Compendium, it isn't half casting progression - 7/10 is definitely better than 5/10. Although many may like the class just for a dip.

[Anthrowhale]

It looks like you can start as a race with a level adjustment and change into one without a level adjustment while keeping your attributes? So, for example Black Ethergaunt Shaper of Form 1 -> Elan gives you an LA+0 Elan with stat adjustments of Str+2, Dex+8, Con+4, Int+20, Wis+4, Cha+4.

[Nifft]

Epic Ancient Wyrm Prismatic Dragon -> Dragonwrought Kobold


Then it's a kobold, so it becomes double broken as Pun-Pun.

[Elves]

It looks like you can start as a race with a level adjustment and change into one without a level adjustment while keeping your attributes? So, for example Black Ethergaunt Shaper of Form 1 -> Elan gives you an LA+0 Elan with stat adjustments of Str+2, Dex+8, Con+4, Int+20, Wis+4, Cha+4.
Yeah, that's the other part of it. Obviously writer just wasn't thinking of monster PCs.


Epic Ancient Wyrm Prismatic Dragon -> Dragonwrought Kobold


Then it's a kobold, so it becomes double broken as Pun-Pun.
Pun-Pun gets infinite stats anyway, but it's certainly an interesting way to represent the "dragon/other powerful creature takes on the life of a mortal" trope.

[Gruftzwerg]

Doesn't this disqualify itself by saying it can't change type?



Now you can make the case that the first "type" is referring to "Type", as in "Humanoid (goblinoid)", and the second "type" is the more specific meaning like "Bugbear". But it's ambiguous at least.
It is easy to mistake Race for Type. Especially since the PHC player races claim that your race becomes your subtype. This is only true for PHB player races IIRC.
Race is IIRC only relevant when something targets your race. E.g. racial item requirements, effects targeting a race, racial feats...
While Type also covers your subtypes, Features and Traits.
So the ability can change your race, but does leave racial traits untouched.


It's a case of bad wording, nothing else. By creature type they clearly meant specific creature since you don't gain RHD for having a particular type.

As far as the ability, it specifies only type not subtype and the listed example is changing to an orc which has the orc subtype implying this is intended.
Subtypes are part of "type"-rules. So if your type doesn't change, your subtypes don't change either.
The ability doesn't limit you to your own type as target form. It just doesn't change your "(sub-)type" to match your new form.
As such you can change form into another race, but still have your own stats and type. No dysfunction here.

Which brings us to the conclusion that your RHD don't change, since your Type did remain untouched. Sorry for the disappointment. But still an interesting prc ability to change race if your DM should rule against double PaO cheese.

Are we going to see any Beholder Mage builds in the near future?^^
Assume Supernatural Ability @lvl 6 for the Antimagic Cone
xxx 5 / Shaper of Form 1 / Beholder Mage 10 / yyy 4

[Elves]

You do gain a new subtype, because that's one of the racial traits of the new race. The ability doesn't say you don't gain the type of your new race, it says you can't change to a race of a different type.

And even if for some reason you didn't gain a new subtype, wouldn't change outcome since RHD are granted by specific creature, not by subtype. Does an allip derive its Hit Dice from being (incorporeal)? No, they come from being an allip.

It's an exploit that comes from a badly thought out PRC in Dragon Mag, whoopee, nothing new there. There are many things like this from those mags, but the way the community now treats Dragon as de facto canon is justified by its many genuinely good options like mystic ranger.

[Gruftzwerg]

You do gain a new subtype, because that's one of the racial traits of the new race. The ability doesn't say you don't gain the type of your new race, it says you can't change to a race of a different type.

And even if for some reason you didn't gain a new subtype, wouldn't change outcome since RHD are granted by specific creature, not by subtype. Does an allip derive its Hit Dice from being (incorporeal)? No, they come from being an allip.

It's an exploit that comes from a badly thought out PRC in Dragon Mag, whoopee, nothing new there. There are many things like this from those mags, but the way the community now treats Dragon as de facto canon is justified by its many genuinely good options like mystic ranger.

Under normal circumstances your "race" determines your "type" & "subtypes". Your (sub)type gives you your racial Features" & "Traits".

In this specific situation, your race changes accordingly to your new form, but your type (and therefore your subtype, features and traits) don't change:

She cannot change type and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.
This sentence means that you type doesn't change accordingly to your new form. It doesn't limit your target forms to your type nor to your ability scores. All it does is the denial of any changes in those areas.

[Elves]

That's some very abnormal parsing dude. It's

She cannot change type | and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.

To say that it means you can adopt a new race and all their racial benefits without adopting their type or subtype (so I can become a dragon of humanoid type?) is grammatically awkward and mechanically degenerative.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's some very abnormal parsing dude. It's

She cannot change type | and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.

To say that it means you can adopt a new race and all their racial benefits without adopting their type or subtype (so I can become a dragon of humanoid type?) is grammatically awkward and mechanically degenerative.

"all their racial benefits"? Most races don't have any race specific things to pick up that are useful.
It's mostly pc races that have those. humans, elves, dwarfs, drow... all have special things. How many race related stuff can a bugbear pick up? The most beneficial races for this ability would be either dragon or beholder. While the beholder mage is the real deal, all the other options are just meh. It's like a race-flexible version of dragonblooded + form change.

[Thurbane]

My reading is thus: you cannot change from a Humanoid to Monstrous Humanoid, or Fey to Aberration. You could, for instance, change from an Elf to an Orc, and you would be changing from Humanoid (elf) to Humanoid (orc). That's my 2 coppers anyway. FWIW, I agree the wording could have been a little clearer, but to me at least, that is the intent.

Since we're all focused on removing RHD, how about the reverse. Say I change from a Lupin to an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: do I suddenly gain 3 RHD, or no?

[Elves]

The author probably wasn't thinking about the difference between RHD and LA when they put in the level adjustment clause. So yes, you would, but probable RAI is that you aren't supposed to be able to transform into anything with LA -or- RHD.

I'm much more charitable toward RAI when it's clear the person is just having trouble expressing themselves. Same deal with the martial monk ACF and how it lets you ignore prereqs or whatever. Only where intent is ambiguous do I think it's worth rules lawyering.

[Psyren]

Qualifying with non-inherent/temporary means like items or wild shape is suspect and distasteful in my view.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight either way, but I will point out that qualifying for a PrC with items is allowed, per Complete Warrior:

"An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class."

[Elves]

It's just ugly. And as far as optimization it's risky if you subscribe to the "lose your prestige class features" rule there. I don't want to get into that again -- I don't know if you read but there's a strong argument against by analogy to the Armor Feat proficiency dispute -- but sure, that line implies legal item qualification whether or not you subscribe to the actual rule it's stating.

[Bphill561]

So my trick with that class is to take the otherworldly feat if you have access forgotten realms content. Otherworldly takes your level one feat, but locks you type in as outsider (native). The Celestial Attended Birth opens the feat to all regions, it is a region option in another book. Now you can pick almost any starting type/race (maybe not undead I guess), and pick any 0 LA race to turn into.

Obviously if starting a new character at higher levels it is easier to pick high ECL races. I still prefer anthropomorphic races as suggested earlier to get this tricky off quicker, but with still very nice stats. I guess you could further customize your starting ECL by adding a template to the original form that is inherited to adjust stats further.

As for Shaper of form itself, I don't see a strong reason to retrain it on most caster builds since it still gives you a caster level and additional abilities. Also depending on the build at time of change, you can have sufficient requirements for the PrC without the lost racial hit dice or get them back with replacing the HD with class levels.

[Darg]

Since we're all focused on removing RHD, how about the reverse. Say I change from a Lupin to an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: do I suddenly gain 3 RHD, or no?

I'd say no. Monsters as races makes racial hit die "monster levels." You aren't gaining a template and therefore are not gaining the "monster levels." I also say it works that way in reverse. You don't lose RHD "monster levels" either.