Infusions, Would You Ever Let Your Players Buy Them?

[Gale]

Artificers can only have a small number of objects empowered with one of their infusions at any time, which essentially means they can't produce infused items to sell to others. At best they might be able to sell out their services for a limited time. But surely some artificers have managed to produce magic items that replicate the effects of infusions, without directly needing an artificer's magic to sustain them.

We already have some magic items that are ostensibly the same as infusions. (Enhanced Weapon is just a +1 Weapon; Spell-Refueling Ring is a Pearl of Power.) But others, like Returning Weapon, Repeating Shot, or Mind Sharpener, don't have any equivalents.

Personally, I think some of the infusions should really exist as normal magic items. Returning Weapon seems like one of the few ways to practically play a "thrown weapon" build, but it would only be available if you or a friend is playing an Artificer. Repeating Shot would make crossbows far more useful without pressuring people into taking Crossbow Expert. Mind Sharpener would be amazing for any spellcaster, although it would need to be priced carefully as I'm sure it could easily replace War Caster or Resilient: Con for many people.

Would you ever let your player outright buy these infusions as equivalent magic items? Do you think this would be fair? I am concerned that making them purchasable with make the Artificer feel less special. But if no one in the party is playing one then they are totally barred off from acquiring some really useful items.

[Greywander]

One way I can see handling it is using the magic item crafting rules. Normally, to craft a magic item you need both a recipe and an exotic ingredient, plus the normal gold and downtime cost. I can see treating knowledge of the infusion as having the recipe, and if you spend an infusion slot to keep the item infused during the entire crafting process, it could count as supplying the exotic ingredient. Doing it this way would allow artificers to create magic items based on their infusions using only gold and downtime. Now, as you've pointed out, not all infusions have a magic item equivalent, but all you're really missing is the item rarity, and then you should have everything you need to craft them.

Do keep in mind that this can definitely be exploited, though exploitation is always possible, it just normally requires a more elaborate setup to farm the exotic ingredients you'd need. The major limiting factor is how many known infusions the artificer has, which at least limits the number of items they could make through such exploitation.

[king_steve]

Would you ever let your player outright buy these infusions as equivalent magic items? Do you think this would be fair? I am concerned that making them purchasable with make the Artificer feel less special. But if no one in the party is playing one then they are totally barred off from acquiring some really useful items.

If you're making a magic mart that just has magic items for purchase, then sure why not homebrew a permanent form of an infusion.

But that is an interesting idea, to let people purchase/commision an infusion. Infusions already have a built-in time limit of int modifier days. You could have an Artificer Guild in a city that you could purchase them from and they'd have a built-in time limit, which would help any Artificer in the part feel more unique since they can sustain their infusions for longer. Heck, you could let your players even purchase the replicate magic items since they're also Infusions that only last int-mod days. You could scale the cost based off the int mod duration as well. It would be like someone purchasing a potion or spell scroll but its a temporary magic item.

[Unoriginal]

But surely some artificers have managed to produce magic items that replicate the effects of infusions, without directly needing an artificer's magic to sustain them.

You could have an artificier who's trying to accomplish that, needs the PCs' help to pull it off, and will give the first one they finish to the PCs as payment.

Sounds like a fun quest, and then it'll alter the world in visible ways for the rest of the campaign.


I am concerned that making them purchasable with make the Artificer feel less special. But if no one in the party is playing one then they are totally barred off from acquiring some really useful items.

If there is an artificier in the group, I'd see if they'd be interested in being the one to do what I'm talking about above

[MaxWilson]

Would you ever let your player outright buy these infusions as equivalent magic items? Do you think this would be fair? I am concerned that making them purchasable with make the Artificer feel less special. But if no one in the party is playing one then they are totally barred off from acquiring some really useful items.

Probably not buy (unless it was a swindle) but rent, yes. Artificer gives up the use of one infusion (e.g. a repeating hand crossbow) in exchange for an income of, say, 1000 gp a month. As long as the money keeps coming, he doesn't revoke the invocation.

[Naanomi]

Sounds like a fun quest hook. ‘I need 500lbs of void sand; take my bag of holding to carry it. Oh, and don’t think of cheating me and running off with it; that thing expires in a few days anyways’

[UnintensifiedFa]

For me? I can’t see a reason why not, they’re roughly on par with most magic items... and nothings truly that broken in the hands of a non-Artificer...

Of course, there are some other options as well.

You could have artificers guilds that “rent” out infusions for periods of time.

I could even imagine a service that lets you bring an artificer on a quest with you, for a complete supply of magic items. (Maybe he teleports in and out every night).

Beyond that I don’t think it’s outrageous to let Artificers make magic items based off of infusions, they can infuse it, they should be able to make it.

[Amdy_vill]

Artificers can only have a small number of objects empowered with one of their infusions at any time, which essentially means they can't produce infused items to sell to others. At best they might be able to sell out their services for a limited time. But surely some artificers have managed to produce magic items that replicate the effects of infusions, without directly needing an artificer's magic to sustain them.

We already have some magic items that are ostensibly the same as infusions. (Enhanced Weapon is just a +1 Weapon; Spell-Refueling Ring is a Pearl of Power.) But others, like Returning Weapon, Repeating Shot, or Mind Sharpener, don't have any equivalents.

Personally, I think some of the infusions should really exist as normal magic items. Returning Weapon seems like one of the few ways to practically play a "thrown weapon" build, but it would only be available if you or a friend is playing an Artificer. Repeating Shot would make crossbows far more useful without pressuring people into taking Crossbow Expert. Mind Sharpener would be amazing for any spellcaster, although it would need to be priced carefully as I'm sure it could easily replace War Caster or Resilient: Con for many people.

Would you ever let your player outright buy these infusions as equivalent magic items? Do you think this would be fair? I am concerned that making them purchasable with make the Artificer feel less special. But if no one in the party is playing one then they are totally barred off from acquiring some really useful items.


this depends on a lot of things, in general in my custom magic items have some items that are similar to infusion. non of them are the same mostly side grades with some upgrades. so I would use these. but without homebrew/custom content/3rd party should this be ok. it depends on if an artificer is in the party and how they use infustion. if they lean into the walking arsenal style of player I have no problem handing out infusion or infusion-like items so long as it's limited or unlimited if the artificer is fine with it. if the artificer is giving out infusion I will only do it if the artificer feels like it's ok and I will talk to them about it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For me? I can’t see a reason why not, they’re roughly on par with most magic items... and nothings truly that broken in the hands of a non-Artificer...

Of course, there are some other options as well.

You could have artificers guilds that “rent” out infusions for periods of time.

I could even imagine a service that lets you bring an artificer on a quest with you, for a complete supply of magic items. (Maybe he teleports in and out every night).

Beyond that I don’t think it’s outrageous to let Artificers make magic items based off of infusions, they can infuse it, they should be able to make it.

I agree and quote you because you wrote it better than I will.

[VonKaiserstein]

That is a golden opportunity for a magical item leaser, probably the only kind of shop the players won't try to steal. A retired Artificer in a major city will lease items for a week, month, or whatever you'd like to pay. When the time's up, he simply recasts on something handy, essentially retrieving his item. A scrupulous merchant might take a deposit on top of his fee, and refund it if the item is returned before the time is up.

This would be a really, really helpful service for low level adventurers. Maybe for an additional fee, they would even enchant the item you like.

[stoutstien]

One of my characters is a infusion leander because I spend most of my time DMing so it allows me to still have a presence without the DMPC headache. *I have no problem with them in practice just don't like running one.*

My PC is big on hanging out in candle keep and high House of wonders so he just made a contract with the party to supply them with infusions and and spell scrolls/potions for a fat % of profits.

He only goes out and risks his own skin if his expertise is needed and it peeks his interest. Code for time to play when we have a guest DM.

[Zhorn]

Buy? Maybe not, depends on the infusion.
Rent? Yes, very sure that'll be good.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Yes, as long as there was not an artificer in the party already. I have a similar philosophy with other classes abilities. No sorcerers? boons of metamagic. no clerics? staves of turn undead.

[Witty Username]

One way I can see handling it is using the magic item crafting rules. Normally, to craft a magic item you need both a recipe and an exotic ingredient, plus the normal gold and downtime cost. I can see treating knowledge of the infusion as having the recipe, and if you spend an infusion slot to keep the item infused during the entire crafting process, it could count as supplying the exotic ingredient. Doing it this way would allow artificers to create magic items based on their infusions using only gold and downtime. Now, as you've pointed out, not all infusions have a magic item equivalent, but all you're really missing is the item rarity, and then you should have everything you need to craft them.

Do keep in mind that this can definitely be exploited, though exploitation is always possible, it just normally requires a more elaborate setup to farm the exotic ingredients you'd need. The major limiting factor is how many known infusions the artificer has, which at least limits the number of items they could make through such exploitation.
It would certainly help explain how magic items exist, I am still mad that the magic item crafting rules are logically impossible as written and will bring it up once in every relevant conversation.
I would definitely let an infusion for an existing magic item be used as a formula.It makes an artificer feel like their concept. I think the unique to infusion items is reasonable as well, why would an inventor be unable to invent new items? Rarity is bunk anyway so it would be difficult to break that by guessing at it.

[Unoriginal]

It would certainly help explain how magic items exist, I am still mad that the magic item crafting rules are logically impossible as written and will bring it up once in every relevant conversation.

Magic item crafting rules are 100% logically possible as written. There is nothing that would make them logically impossible.

[MaxWilson]

Magic item crafting rules are 100% logically possible as written. There is nothing that would make them logically impossible.

How are legendary items created?

[Unoriginal]

How are legendary items created?

You need:

-proficiency in the relevant tool (or the Arcana skill)

-50 workweeks (halved for consumable items, divided by the number of people working on it)

-An ingredient requiring a quest involving a creature (suggested to be of CR 19+) to acquire

- 100'000 gp (halved for consumable items)

-The formula for the magic item in question

While DMG p. 141 does indicate that a magic item formula is usually one rarity rank higher than the item it instruct how to create, meaning that there are no formula for legendary items, it is written on the same page (a paragraph below) that it is also possible to have magic item formulas of the same rarity rank as the items they create.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also note that the creation guidelines (they're not rules, really) are for PCs who want to do that during downtime.

That doesn't apply to NPC's, especially the deities, legendary crafters, etc who are the ones generally making legendary items.

So stock there may not be a way for a PC to craft a legendary item (if the formula is legendary+). That says nothing about NPCs, especially ones in the distant past. Having a formula rarity of N/A may just mean that that item can no longer be made in this day and age. That's not a problem in my book.

[Unoriginal]

Also note that the creation guidelines (they're not rules, really) are for PCs who want to do that during downtime.

That doesn't apply to NPC's, especially the deities, legendary crafters, etc who are the ones generally making legendary items.

So stock there may not be a way for a PC to craft a legendary item (if the formula is legendary+). That says nothing about NPCs, especially ones in the distant past. Having a formula rarity of N/A may just mean that that item can no longer be made in this day and age. That's not a problem in my book.

True, but I think the declaration of impossibility was because the books' tables for magic item creation time/cost have a line for legendary, while one of the two proposed rarities for formulas say "there is no legendary formula". But as I just said, it's only one of the two proposed rarities.

[PhoenixPhyre]

True, but I think the declaration of impossibility was because the books' tables for magic item creation time/cost have a line for legendary, while one of the two proposed rarities for formulas say "there is no legendary formula". But as I just said, it's only one of the two proposed rarities.

So there are two sets of legendary items:

1. Those whose formulas are also legendary. That's what the guidelines are for. These can be crafted by PCs.
2. Those whose formulas are N/A. Those can't be crafted by PCs, but might be able to be crafted by
** gods
** legendary artisans who invent the formulas themselves
** long-ago people of a more powerful age

I was adding to your comment (about case 1) by outlining that even case 2 can exist, they just can't be made by PCs.

[Witty Username]

Magic item crafting rules are 100% logically possible as written. There is nothing that would make them logically impossible.

To clarify my gripe, magic item formulas are magic items one rarity higher then the item they create.
Since they are magic items they require a formula one rarity higher than them to craft. Since items beyond legendary do not exist, and every formula would require a magic item beyond legendary to craft. Therefore, magic item crafting in the default setting is logically impossible.
Alternatively, all items require infinite formulas to be crafted, making them logically impossible do to the infinite time/materials required.
If you don't require this in your games, that is fine (I prefer it, in fact), but it doesn't change RAW.

[PhoenixPhyre]

To clarify my gripe, magic item formulas are magic items one rarity higher then the item they create.
Since they are magic items they require a formula one rarity higher than them to craft. Since items beyond legendary do not exist, and every formula would require a magic item beyond legendary to craft. Therefore, magic item crafting in the default setting is logically impossible.
Alternatively, all items require infinite formulas to be crafted, making them logically impossible do to the infinite time/materials required.
If you don't require this in your games, that is fine (I prefer it, in fact), but it doesn't change RAW.

You can't craft a formula. That's the expectation anyway. You find formulae or are given them as rewards.

And remember, that whole process is for PCs only. NPCs don't need to follow those rules at all.

[jaappleton]

My Druid bought an infusion from the party Artificer. Gave him 300 gold to take up one of his active infusions, and my Druid gets to utilize Mind Sharpener.

Gotta keep up concentration on Summon Fey!

[Unoriginal]

To clarify my gripe, magic item formulas are magic items one rarity higher then the item they create.
Since they are magic items they require a formula one rarity higher than them to craft. Since items beyond legendary do not exist, and every formula would require a magic item beyond legendary to craft. Therefore, magic item crafting in the default setting is logically impossible.

Formulas aren't magic items, they are simply one rank higher than the items they let you craft for the purpose of loot calculation... if you don't go by the alternative that makes them as rare as the item.

There is also no indication of a magic item formula requiring another item or another formula to craft. Or that you can craft formulas.

[MaxWilson]

You need:

-proficiency in the relevant tool (or the Arcana skill)

-50 workweeks (halved for consumable items, divided by the number of people working on it)

-An ingredient requiring a quest involving a creature (suggested to be of CR 19+) to acquire

- 100'000 gp (halved for consumable items)

-The formula for the magic item in question

While DMG p. 141 does indicate that a magic item formula is usually one rarity rank higher than the item it instruct how to create, meaning that there are no formula for legendary items, it is written on the same page (a paragraph below) that it is also possible to have magic item formulas of the same rarity rank as the items they create.

It's interesting how differently different people read DMG 141. To my perception, when DMG 141 says there are no formulas for legendary items, it's saying there are no formulas for legendary items and you can't create them. It then notes that you can use a rule variant whereby EVERYTHING, not just legendary items, has formulas as common as the item itself, if you want lots of item creation in your game. But if you're not using that rule variant, there are no formulas for legendary items.

There's also the issue of where formulas come from, since they themselves are considered magic items. How do you make a formula? Do you need a formula formula?

(Rhetorical question, since I personally would just require them to be researched like spells, using Intelligence (Arcana), a library, time, and money.)


And remember, that whole process is for PCs only. NPCs don't need to follow those rules at all.

I don't think the DMG ever says the rules are only for PCs. DMs don't need to follow the rules, but (N)PCs are not exempt unless the DM makes them special somehow.

[PhoenixPhyre]

All the rules (except those specifically about interactions between PCs and NPCs) are only for PCs. NPCs don't make Charisma (or other) checks when PCs aren't there--things happen or not based on the DM's judgement. 5e is not a world simulation. It's a game UI. And the rules are how PCs interact (and are interacted with). Nothing more.

[MaxWilson]

All the rules (except those specifically about interactions between PCs and NPCs) are only for PCs.

This is definitely false, according to the DMG. The reason they're called "player characters" in the first place is because who controls them is their distinguishing characteristic. A DM can handwave or alter mechanics for NPCs or PCs, but otherwise the rules in the PHB are intended to apply equally to all characters, player- and non-.

This consistency, when properly applied, allows players to meaningfully reason about the world they're in and enhances the feeling of agency.

D&D should not feel like a Potemkin village.

[Unoriginal]

It's interesting how differently different people read DMG 141. To my perception, when DMG 141 says there are no formulas for legendary items, it's saying there are no formulas for legendary items and you can't create them. It then notes that you can use a rule variant whereby EVERYTHING, not just legendary items, has formulas as common as the item itself, if you want lots of item creation in your game. But if you're not using that rule variant, there are no formulas for legendary items.


I think you misunderstood what I wrote, as we are in agreement.

There are two variants presented in the DMG p. 141:

1) formulas are one rank rarer than the items they allow to craft, making so that there is no formulas for legendary items (meaning that this line in the magic item crafting does not apply).

2) formulas for legendary magic items are legendarily rare themselves, if the DM establishes formulas are as rare as the items they let you craft (meaning that the line about what it takes to craft legendary magic items is relevant).


In other words, crafting legendary magic items is for games where the DM wants allows for lot of magic item crafting. Which is logical.



There's also the issue of where formulas come from, since they themselves are considered magic items.

Formulas are not considered magic items, only comparable to magic items in term of rarity/importance as treasure.



(Rhetorical question, since I personally would just require them to be researched like spells, using Intelligence (Arcana), a library, time, and money.)

I would allow using Intelligence (relevant tool proficiency), too, personally.