Are Half-Elves Boring?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Let me start by saying, I like half-elves. They've got an elfy sort of perspective that's human-like enough that I can wrap my head around (I have a really hard time roleplaying an elf's long-lived perspective) and they can grow beards where usually elves can't! That said...I worry that sometimes I gravitate to them TOO often when thinking of characters, wanting to play characters that are "cool" and "handsome" and have a kind of "protagonist energy." Like, you don't really SEE fantasy media that treats other non-human types like dwarves and gnomes as anything but sidekicks. Most of them don't get much personality beyond "They're a dwarf," or "They're a gnome." Half-orcs have similar issues, since the average one has the fact that they ARE a half-orc dominating their roleplay. So...am I a boring roleplayer because most of my characters fall into the special-snowflake half-elf category?

[Elves]

Yeah they're extremely boring and fulfill no role whatsoever.

If they're to be kept they need to live up to old-style changeling folklore and be weird demented moonheads with fey mutations.

[Willie the Duck]

I think half-elves fit an interesting spot in the fantasy race conceptual space... if that then gives elves license to be truly alien. Despite lip service to the long-lived thing, much of fantasy literature (and lots of iterations of fantasy games) treat elves as vaguely hippy-dippy or magic-infused pretty people, and not much else. When that's the case, being halfway between that and human isn't really anywhere to be, since the elves really aren't outside the normal range of humanity (just to one side of it). If, however, elves are full on seelie/unseelie, living in an alien world/have and genuinely alien mindset, etc. etc. etc., well then half-elves are a great linking spot between that and normal humanity. In other words, I think there's a great place for half-elves to be, it's just a spot currently occupied by elves themselves most of the time.

[quinron]

I hate elves as player characters. In terms of lifespan, humans are to elves as dogs are to humans. There's a reason the elves in Tolkien's work lived separately from men and hobbits, who viewed the elves as rare, powerful, and otherworldly. Having elves live alongside humans and behaving as if they're not fundamentally different creatures just feels like lazy worldbuilding.

THAT SAID.

I usually allow elves in my games; I just drastically reduce their lifespans. And when I do that, I tend to cut half-elves out, because the niche half-elves fill is just "elves, but not as mystical," which is what elves become when you reduce their lifespans.

I think choosing to play a half-elf specifically because they feel closer to humans indicates that you're interested in having a player character that feels like they come from a race that's meant for player characters, in that they'll actively respond to the world around them. I think that's a lot more interesting to engage with than a stoic and unchanging elf.

EDIT: I spent too long tweaking my ramble and Willie the Duck snaked my point!

[gijoemike]

You are just in a rut. Make a point in the next campaign to play something different. Like a half orc, halfling, or gnome. Any character, race, or class can have a personality and take the spotlight in a given scene. You do not need to feel like half-elves are the special snowflakes. Every race is.

Make a point to play something outside your comfort zone. This is how you can grow as a role player.

[Dienekes]

Let me start by saying, I like half-elves. They've got an elfy sort of perspective that's human-like enough that I can wrap my head around (I have a really hard time roleplaying an elf's long-lived perspective) and they can grow beards where usually elves can't! That said...I worry that sometimes I gravitate to them TOO often when thinking of characters, wanting to play characters that are "cool" and "handsome" and have a kind of "protagonist energy." Like, you don't really SEE fantasy media that treats other non-human types like dwarves and gnomes as anything but sidekicks. Most of them don't get much personality beyond "They're a dwarf," or "They're a gnome." Half-orcs have similar issues, since the average one has the fact that they ARE a half-orc dominating their roleplay. So...am I a boring roleplayer because most of my characters fall into the special-snowflake half-elf category?

I don’t think any of the fantasy races are boring by their nature. Even humans can be the most fascinating interesting people to talk to. It really just depends on the decisions of the player roleplaying them.

This reads to me that you’ve liked half-elf stereotypes and keep getting drawn into it. But everything is more than just their stereotype.

Play against it, be an ugly half-elf. Sure they still have their natural boost to charisma/diplomacy, but plenty of ugly completely uncool people are charismatic. Think of that guy who got the whisky nature of elves mixed with their humans sides male pattern baldness to make some gaunt looking weirdo. Have fun with it.

Or if you don’t want to do that. Just look at other heroic tropes you enjoy and see if you can make a character fit those instead be it half elven or otherwise.

[Bugbear]

It is true that a LOT of media makes just about any character "boring". And this is quite common with non humans.

If you want the Classic Half Elf, read the Dragonlance books about Tanis Half elf or the Forgotten Realms Arlyn Moonblade books.

[KillianHawkeye]

I worry that sometimes I gravitate to them TOO often when thinking of characters, wanting to play characters that are "cool" and "handsome" and have a kind of "protagonist energy."

I kind of like the idea of half-elves representing the cliche pretty boy anime protagonist archetype, being mostly human but halfway to something more special.

[Khedrac]

This totally comes down to a combination of the Game System and the Gameworld lore.

In Tolkein there are exactly 2 half elves acknowledged as such - Elrond and Elros (which is a bit weird when you look at their family tree - the grandmother was an elf born of an elf and a maiar, and their mother was an elf born of the elf/maiar and a human - so how come they are the only two judged to be "half elves").
What's more, they don't really get to be human-elf hybrids - they have to choose which race to link their fate to, as did Elrond's daughter, and if they choose human they get an extended lifespan.
At this point the ganme system doesn't matter if faithful to Tolkein's work.

In Runequest/Glorantha where elves are living plants there is just one half-elf - Pavis who achieved some pretty amazing feats but I have seen no record of how he was born. (The original 2nd Ed of Runequest did actually include stats for 1/2-elves but it was in a non-Glorantha product called Questworld designed for solo play.)

So in these two examples half-elves are anything but boring, but they are also not really available for play.

I don't recall if Shadowrun supported half-elves, but with 99% of humans turning into a fantasy race they might have been quite interesting.

And then we get to (A)D&D where yes, half-elves can be boring. AD&D they were not too bad, and BECMI D&D didn't have them, but 3rd Ed D&D made half-elves a "what's the point?" race.
The ability to rescue the situation would flow from the campaign setting - e.g. making elves very segregationist - but with most talked-about campaigns allowing people to play pretty much anything then yes, half-elves are boring.

[Elves]

It's time to admit that Tolkien's elves fit his story but suck for fantasy games because they're just immortal humans with heightened passions and aesthetic sensitivity. And someone who is half of that is nothing at all.

[Batcathat]

It's time to admit that Tolkien's elves fit his story but suck for fantasy games because they're just immortal humans with heightened passions and aesthetic sensitivity. And someone who is half of that is nothing at all.

Considering Tolkien (and later D&D) led to generations of fantasy authors somehow thinking that you have to have elves (and dwarves and orcs and possibly some version of hobbit) when writing fantasy, the odds of his version of elves being abandoned seems bad.

[Morty]

There's two layers to this. In OP's particular case, I'm inclined to say: no, you're not boring. Play what you want. They're your characters and you do what is fun for you. But on the other hand, if you're concerned you're stuck in a rut, you should try playing something else just to see what happens. But do it for you, not for other people's judgments.

In the more general sense of elves in fantasy gaming... yeah, that's a whole big ol' ball of issues. Fantasy races are typically humans but X: humans but short, humans but big and green, humans but with a wolf's head. Elves are humans but better and writers and players alike kind of tiptoe around the subject. They're prettier, longer-lived, more magical. It's hard to untangle.

Also, on the specific subject of lifespan - if I were to run a game involving elves in some fashion, I'd unilaterally declare they live as long as humans, maybe a bit longer. A whole civilization of people who live for centuries would be completely alien to us and since it's not going to be properly explored by any system or setting, all it does is leave a logic hole you could ride an elephant through.

But, to bring it back to the issue at hand: if you worry you play the same kind of character too often or that you do it for the wrong reasons, try playing someone different. There's no other way to address it.

[Mastikator]

I kind of like the idea of half-elves representing the cliche pretty boy anime protagonist archetype, being mostly human but halfway to something more special.

Agreed. TBH I think any race will seem boring if you ignore all of their fluff and lore and what not. I think the issue stems from players playing themselves or worrying that they'll play some racial stereotype. (never seen that happen, with most players I can't even tell that they are not playing a human until I take a look at their character sheet)

[Mechalich]

And then we get to (A)D&D where yes, half-elves can be boring. AD&D they were not too bad, and BECMI D&D didn't have them, but 3rd Ed D&D made half-elves a "what's the point?" race.
The ability to rescue the situation would flow from the campaign setting - e.g. making elves very segregationist - but with most talked-about campaigns allowing people to play pretty much anything then yes, half-elves are boring.

There's also a sort of progression in crossbreed availability. In 1e AD&D, if you wanted to play a half-something, half-elves and briefly half-orcs were the only supported option. This changed as time passed. Dark Sun allowed human/dwarf crosses (Muls), Council of Wyrms allowed half-dragons, and Planescape uncorked the whole clade by throwing Tieflings, Aasimar, and Genasi into the mix. By the time 3e rolled around racial options were coming out of everywhere and you could also throw templates around like crazy. This increase in racial options coupled with an elimination in race-based restrictions on character concept, which meant that for players not highly concerned with immersion (meaning the majority of D&D players), race simply became something you picked for its build synergy. Half-elves, as written, had very few such synergies. They're basically humans only you picked the worst possible way to spend that bonus feat and extra skill points. This left half-elves without any real place to occupy in the system.

[Morty]

Traditional fantasy races have always been humans in funny costumes. That's all they'll ever be and part of the convention is suspending our disbelief to pretend otherwise. I am beyond sceptical that old-school D&D's restrictions on them somehow changed that.

[Imbalance]

No, you're not a boring player. Yes, half-elves are boring - perhaps slightly less so when they're called Bretons. Humans and human-adjacent people are boring in general, but real world human consumers lack the imagination to go very far away from humanoid limitations and mindsets, so the product is geared towards the greatest mass appeal rather than creatively exploring non-human identities as protagonists. It's an ironic truth of commercial fantasy fiction that it can't escape its own reality.

[Max_Killjoy]

Depending on the system, half-elves can be "boring" because they're an easy mechanics-driven pick in combination with certain "classes".

[LibraryOgre]

It is true that a LOT of media makes just about any character "boring". And this is quite common with non humans.

If you want the Classic Half Elf, read the Dragonlance books about Tanis Half elf or the Forgotten Realms Arlyn Moonblade books.

Though, I think some of that goes away with the normalization of Half-elves. Tanis had a degree of outcast, because he was too human for elves and too elven for humans. Notably, he used 1st edition half-elven age categories, where you didn't hit middle age until 100.. His "Mature Adult" stage was a human lifetime.. but he'd be long dead before an elf reached middle age. After 1e, half-elves became, in a lot of cases, "humans with pointy ears", relatively well-integrated into society. Their lifespans were shorter, their life cycle less divorced from humans, so they were far less divorced from humanity.

[Democratus]

As portrayed in modern D&D? Yes. Half-elves are boring.

Not to say you can't make them interesting. But that would be a deviation from what we have now.

I try to make each of the fantasy races unique in some way in my worlds - with varying degrees of success. :smallsmile:

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean I like 'em. Gives 'em the elf vibe without having to worry about weird wibbly wobbly immortality things.

[MoiMagnus]

They're mostly equivalent to humans in term of boringness. They're race is pretty much as relevant as the social class the character comes from, and I'm fine with it.

Additionally, while that's not official in any setting up to my knowledge, they are in my mind the go-to humanoid form for a dragon (or other shapeshifters) trying to live among humans. It's expected for half-elves to have high charisma, and to be a "stranger" to a human society. Having been "rejected by the elves" makes a believable fake backstory to justify why you're wandering in the human society, and explain your awkwardness when interacting with other humans and some of your instinctive arrogance you're trying to suppress. And who would question the fact that someone raised by the elves know few words of draconic?

[Alternatively, the fact that all half-elves are in fact dragons in disguise can be a conspiracy theory in your universe]

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yeah, I think Half elves, along with things like Aasimar, and Genasi, are just.. Human+ races. For when you want to play human but think human is boring.

[Anonymouswizard]

Traditional fantasy races have always been humans in funny costumes. That's all they'll ever be and part of the convention is suspending our disbelief to pretend otherwise. I am beyond sceptical that old-school D&D's restrictions on them somehow changed that.

This is the main reason my preferred races are humans and human-raised hybrids. It means I can be certain my character is mostly psychologically human. I don't see the point in pretending my character isn't a human in a funny hat.

Especially when there are so many funny hats to wear openly. Generally with feathers.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I kind of like the idea of half-elves representing the cliche pretty boy anime protagonist archetype, being mostly human but halfway to something more special.
That is part of the issue, at least for me: playing the cliche pretty boy anime protagonist archetype and finding it hard to roleplay a real elf's perspective convincingly. And while I'm aware I could play this archetype with other ancestries (I mean, it's tailor-made for one of my other favorites, the half-orc paladin that seems to be growing in popularity as well), for some of the most immediate things I'm considering it's kinda redundant with other characters.

There's also a sort of progression in crossbreed availability. In 1e AD&D, if you wanted to play a half-something, half-elves and briefly half-orcs were the only supported option. This changed as time passed. Dark Sun allowed human/dwarf crosses (Muls), Council of Wyrms allowed half-dragons, and Planescape uncorked the whole clade by throwing Tieflings, Aasimar, and Genasi into the mix. By the time 3e rolled around racial options were coming out of everywhere and you could also throw templates around like crazy. This increase in racial options coupled with an elimination in race-based restrictions on character concept, which meant that for players not highly concerned with immersion (meaning the majority of D&D players), race simply became something you picked for its build synergy. Half-elves, as written, had very few such synergies. They're basically humans only you picked the worst possible way to spend that bonus feat and extra skill points. This left half-elves without any real place to occupy in the system.
This is why I like what 2e Pathfinder's done with them: Half-elf doesn't stand as its own ancestry anymore but instead is a modifier to other ancestries, so half-elves aren't limited to humans as their other half. I got this really fun idea for a half-elf whose non-elf parent was a DWARF. Heck, you wanna go REALLY wild, you can make an ORC a half-elf, or make an elf HALF-ORC! So many possibilities! :smallbiggrin:

No, you're not a boring player. Yes, half-elves are boring - perhaps slightly less so when they're called Bretons. Humans and human-adjacent people are boring in general, but real world human consumers lack the imagination to go very far away from humanoid limitations and mindsets, so the product is geared towards the greatest mass appeal rather than creatively exploring non-human identities as protagonists. It's an ironic truth of commercial fantasy fiction that it can't escape its own reality.
I see no lie here. :smallsigh:

I mean I like 'em. Gives 'em the elf vibe without having to worry about weird wibbly wobbly immortality things.
EXACTLY! And they can have BEARDS!

Yeah, I think Half elves, along with things like Aasimar, and Genasi, are just.. Human+ races. For when you want to play human but think human is boring.
That's definitely what's been buggin' me in this instance. I have a concept I want to go with, but it's tied on a fundamental level to a specific in-world organization where the majority of its membership are humans, so I want to play something human-adjacent for it to make sense. But I don't want to go with a half-orc because one of the NPCs I'll be working closely with is a half-orc member of that organization, so I'd basically be a carbon-copy of that NPC, redundant. :smallsigh:

Plus, because of the archetype I'm building my character towards (a King-Arthury type of handsome, princely leader), half-elf all but seems to slot perfectly into that archetype. Like I said in the OP, you don't see types like dwarves, halflings or gnomes in this protagonisty kind of archetype. They almost always feel more like supporting characters, even when they're nominally the heroes (like the dynamic between Bilbo and Thorin in The Hobbit, Thorin always feels more like a supporting character than a deuteragonist because most of the narrative is told from Bilbo's perspective, and Bilbo himself acts more like a sidekick than a protagonist to emphasize his humble and unambitious nature).

Talked with a friend of mine about this too and he had an interesting insight I feel might be worth discussing, and I think some other folks here have touched on: half-elves used to have that "trapped between two worlds" niche for their backstories, but now there's all these other peoples like half-orcs, tieflings, and changelings who have the exact same issue, but with more EDGE, so all half-elves have left is the "human for people who don't want to play a human" niche.

[Morty]

Plus, because of the archetype I'm building my character towards (a King-Arthury type of handsome, princely leader), half-elf all but seems to slot perfectly into that archetype. Like I said in the OP, you don't see types like dwarves, halflings or gnomes in this protagonisty kind of archetype. They almost always feel more like supporting characters, even when they're nominally the heroes (like the dynamic between Bilbo and Thorin in The Hobbit, Thorin always feels more like a supporting character than a deuteragonist because most of the narrative is told from Bilbo's perspective, and Bilbo himself acts more like a sidekick than a protagonist to emphasize his humble and unambitious nature).


That they're not portrayed this way doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be. And trying to buck stereotypes looks like it'll do you some good, frankly.

[LibraryOgre]

Plus, because of the archetype I'm building my character towards (a King-Arthury type of handsome, princely leader), half-elf all but seems to slot perfectly into that archetype. Like I said in the OP, you don't see types like dwarves, halflings or gnomes in this protagonisty kind of archetype. They almost always feel more like supporting characters, even when they're nominally the heroes (like the dynamic between Bilbo and Thorin in The Hobbit, Thorin always feels more like a supporting character than a deuteragonist because most of the narrative is told from Bilbo's perspective, and Bilbo himself acts more like a sidekick than a protagonist to emphasize his humble and unambitious nature).


I mean, one of the major inspirations for modern fantasy had a main cast of 13 dwarves, a halfling, and a celestial pretending to be a human... and the last came and went throughout the story, serving as an angelus ex machina as much as anything. Another book in that world has a sizable portion that is all about the exploits of elves, ages ago. (Middle Earth) Another stars a semi-immortal humanoid (but not human) sorcerer. (Elric) Or the book about the human raised by elves? (Broken Sword) Or immortal, reality hopping demigods? (Chronicles of Amber)

Non-humans might not be really common protagonists, but there's a fair bit out there, even without going into D&D-specific novels, which range from an ensemble cast of humans and non-humans (Dragonlance Chronicles), outright race-specific novels (the Dwarven and Elven Nations trilogies for Dragonlance, Last Mythal for Forgotten Realms, Richard Knaak Chaos War books), or smaller works which nonetheless have a non-human protagonist (Drizz't, Arlyn Moonblade, Kaz the Minotaur has like 3 books).

[False God]

I guess I'm a bit of an odd duck here because I like half-elves.

On the other hand, I don't find almost any of the races interesting in the slightest. Hands down, most of the "traditional fantasy races" are some of the most mind numbing generic dribble that one could possibly hope to rip off Tolkien and not get sued.

But, to be fair I think that's so that people can make "the elves in this setting" detailed in by their own hand. And then detail in their player character even further. If the game is telling me "I must be this." and "I must be that." Because of my race, I'm probably not very interested in that game. Doesn't really matter if the DM or the Book is telling me these things.

So ya know, it's up to you to make half elves or whatever else interesting in your own way. I think ultimately most people are probably pretty boring, without some interesting life circumstances or adventures (read: interesting backstory and in-game development) and that's on the player to make their character interesting.

I think folks fixate, in D&D especially, too much on what "the race" brings to the table. Honestly unless your character is real big on their race, probably not much.

[Silly Name]

I guess I'm a bit of an odd duck here because I like half-elves.

On the other hand, I don't find almost any of the races interesting in the slightest. Hands down, most of the "traditional fantasy races" are some of the most mind numbing generic dribble that one could possibly hope to rip off Tolkien and not get sued.

But, to be fair I think that's so that people can make "the elves in this setting" detailed in by their own hand. And then detail in their player character even further. If the game is telling me "I must be this." and "I must be that." Because of my race, I'm probably not very interested in that game. Doesn't really matter if the DM or the Book is telling me these things.

So ya know, it's up to you to make half elves or whatever else interesting in your own way. I think ultimately most people are probably pretty boring, without some interesting life circumstances or adventures (read: interesting backstory and in-game development) and that's on the player to make their character interesting.

I think folks fixate, in D&D especially, too much on what "the race" brings to the table. Honestly unless your character is real big on their race, probably not much.

This is probably the best answer. A character's race can inform some things about them, but an extremely common trope is also the outcast/going against type.

Play what you like, just try to keep the actual character interesting. Your race can be a starting point for backstory and personality, or it may matter hardly at all. Go crazy, play against type, play according to all the tropes, make your own thing!

[Lord Raziere]

Indeed, on a racial level, half-elves are boring. They're a blend of two species that already look very much alike and are diet elves when elves are already diet mythical elves

On a personal level, it all depends on the details and circumstances you figure out for your particular character, as personal stories can be very creative and interesting in their specific details that can be interesting beyond the racial ones. was your parents both half elf? one elf one human? was the father or mother the elf? how did that effect how they see them? were they good parents? bad parents? things like that. an outcast is one thing, but another good archetype you might want to do for any race is the "Failure to Meet Expectations" character. This is a character that TRIES to live up to the species ideals but FAILS to do so and has lower self esteem about themselves than they deserve. Its a good archetype to point how even if you specifically shoot for what a culture or species is about, that the ideal may not be achieved anyways because the ideals are unrealistic and can't be expected for everyone to follow them whether out of personal preference, circumstances beyond their control or other factors.

[Silly Name]

One interesting addendum is that half-elves in fiction are usually extremely rare: their specialness and what makes them interestesting is that there are very few of them not only in the present time, but across history, usually numbering in the single digits.

So, playing a lot of half-elves may take away the uniqueness that made them interesting to you in the first place, because they now are "commonplace" in your mental landscape.

[Mechalich]

I think folks fixate, in D&D especially, too much on what "the race" brings to the table. Honestly unless your character is real big on their race, probably not much.

I think the opposite would actually be true. Ethnicity is one of the primary identity traits among humans and we live in a world with, at present, only one sapient species. It seems almost certain that in a setting with multiple sentient species active at one time, species is going to be hugely important.

This is particularly obvious in the case of species with significant differences in size. Take three people, one's one meter tall, the next is one-point-five meters tall, and the third is two-point-five meters tall. Can they freely interact with the built environment in the same way? No, they can't, and we know this from experiences with humans. In human society people with very large differences in height require assistance (mechanical and otherwise) to handle everyday tasks. If you had whole populations with such differences they would likely live in very different built environments, designed to different scales.

That's just height, there's a whole range of other features to take into consideration, like temperature, atmospheric mix, odor sensitivity, light level, and even gravity. Science fiction and space fantasy sometimes delve into this (the issues afflicting people born on Mars are fairly common in recent literature).

D&D, by contrast, deliberately elides commonplace differences between species in order to facilitate gameplay, especially from 3e and onward (several early novels actually did have references to how things like dwarf and halfling height presented real challenges). The game made a mechanical choice to drastically decrease the actual impact of race on play. That's probably for the best, for gameplay purposes, but it artificially removes meaning from an extremely important character trait.

[KillianHawkeye]

One interesting addendum is that half-elves in fiction are usually extremely rare: their specialness and what makes them interestesting is that there are very few of them not only in the present time, but across history, usually numbering in the single digits.

So, playing a lot of half-elves may take away the uniqueness that made them interesting to you in the first place, because they now are "commonplace" in your mental landscape.

This is something that was done by D&D itself, though, by making half-elves and half-orcs into actual races. Now we have half-elves whose mom and dad were both half-elves and who grew up in a half-elf village.

[LibraryOgre]

This is something that was done by D&D itself, though, by making half-elves and half-orcs into actual races. Now we have half-elves whose mom and dad were both half-elves and who grew up in a half-elf village.

Especially with half-orcs, though, I think that may be a bit more likely. If you go with a traditional D&D, where orcs and humans are in near-constant conflict, then first generation half-orcs would be relatively rare... aborted or infanticided, when they occur in human lands (an orc-raised half-orc would be more or less an orc in outlook). Those that survived would, IMO, often find common cause with each other... while a half-elf might find companionship with humans or elves, at least for a time, the hostility that orcs and half-orcs get means that many half-orcs would have few places to turn... other than other half-orcs.

Get a few generations of that and you have the makings of a small community.

[TaRix]

Wait... why can't elves have beards? If the system still bases elves on Tolkien elves, an image search for "rankin-bass hobbit elrond" gives me a definitely-bearded high elf.

[hamishspence]

The only elf who is specifically called out as bearded by Tolkien himself, is Cirdan the Shipwright.

I'm not sure if there's any good examples of a D&D elf (as opposed to half-elf) with a beard though.

Ed Greenwood though, has stated that one of his elf book characters has facial hair - just very very little, and he never needs to shave.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=80

As it happens, all of the Knights can attest that Merith Strongbow has both (scant, but dark in hue and definitely present) facial and body hair (though unlike human males, he doesn’t get facial stubble if he doesn’t shave every morning, and in fact never needs to shave)

[Cheesegear]

This is something that was done by D&D itself, though, by making half-elves and half-orcs into actual races. Now we have half-elves whose mom and dad were both half-elves and who grew up in a half-elf village.

Player's Handbook:
"Walking in two worlds but truly belonging to neither."
"Some Half-Elves live among humans, set apart by their emotional and physical differences..."
"Others live with Elves, growing restless..."
"Many half-elves are unable to fit into either society..."

Half-Elves are 'boring', 'cause, at the table, nobody wants to get bogged down in what amounts to real-world social issues, inside their make-believe power fantasy game. As a DM, I'm not going to roleplay that the Human bartender wont serve you because you're weird-looking, because your character has to address that, or leave town and not address it, but now your character isn't doing things in the town anymore, which is where I need you to be. And the players at the table aren't interested in character drama that only affects one player. We've got **** to do, and not a lot of time to do it in.

Half-Elves are boring, 'cause everything that makes them interesting, I - the DM - don't want to touch because I want to get to the part where the party stops the summoning of Yeenoghu. I don't have time for Half-Elf ennui, and I don't want to roleplay that the whole Human or Elf town hates Half-Elves.

[Silly Name]

Half-Elves are 'boring', 'cause, at the table, nobody wants to get bogged down in what amounts to real-world social issues, inside their make-believe power fantasy game. As a DM, I'm not going to roleplay that the Human bartender wont serve you because you're weird-looking, because your character has to address that, or leave town and not address it, but now your character isn't doing things in the town anymore, which is where I need you to be. And the players at the table aren't interested in character drama that only affects one player. We've got **** to do, and not a lot of time to do it in.


Usually, my players take any offence to a single member of the party as an offence to all of them: they're "family" in the sense they're a band of misfits that was drawn together by chance/fate and they get angry when some NPC mistreats them.

A racist barkeep is a good way to do some party-wide roleplaying and deal with the locals: if you want our help, you can't refuse one of us.

[hamishspence]

You could also invert it by having isolationist elves who will talk to the party only because of the half-elf- they're not as friendly with him as they would be with an elf - but because he speaks Elven due to being raised with elves, and knows "secret elven trust passwords" they will give the party information that they would not otherwise get.

Half elves as the intermediaries between elven society and human society, is a thing, in Races of Destiny.

[Cheesegear]

Usually, my players take any offence to a single member of the party as an offence to all of them

As I said, it's both quicker and easier as the DM to just not do that, and continue the adventure as normal.


A racist barkeep is a good way to do some party-wide roleplaying and deal with the locals: if you want our help, you can't refuse one of us.

Why even help at all, at that point? They've already shown the Half-Elf the door. If the Town is in trouble, the Half-Elf can and quite rightly just walk away. If the Half-Elf walks away, that player has to roll a new character, 'cause I'm not splitting the party. If the entire party walks out the door in solidarity, then I have to start making **** up on the fly, because the adventure I planned for, is effectively over. I really don't want to do that, given that time is almost always a factor in every session.

Why even give the party the incentive to walk out the door?

This goes for every exotic race.

Unless an NPC points it out, a Dragonborn is a Human with Resistance to a damage and a breath attack.
Unless an NPC points it out, a Drow is a Human with a weird sunlight reaction.

Just not have NPCs point it out, and you're golden.
"Can I play a Hobgoblin?"
Uhh...There's going to be issues when you walk into a civilised town.
"You're the DM. Can't you just make that not happen?"
I guess I don't have to do that, do I?

Per the OP of the thread; "Are Dragonborn boring?" Practically speaking, they're just a Tall Humanoid with a Breath Attack. Yeah. They are. They're not special at all, unless the player and the DM actively go out of their way to make race species a focal issue of importance within the game - which it isn't. Except for in a few rare cases. Racial Speciel tensions are purely a roleplaying issue which anyone can just ignore and remove from their game because who really wants to do that?

Do you want to get bogged down in a very real, very complex societal issue in a fake game of make-pretend?
Or would you like to play the game?

[Silly Name]

Do you want to get bogged down in a very real, very complex societal issue in a fake game of make-pretend?
Or would you like to play the game?

Some people find that "playing the game" includes interfacing with a complex world populated by NPCs that can have flaws and prejudices which the PCs need to get through in order to reach their objectives.

If you and your group don't want to do that, it's fine. But there's some groups for which "having to deal with stereotypes and all that stuff" IS the incentive to play non-humans, or worshippers of a niche god, or whatever.

[Anymage]

Half-Elves are 'boring', 'cause, at the table, nobody wants to get bogged down in what amounts to real-world social issues, inside their make-believe power fantasy game. As a DM, I'm not going to roleplay that the Human bartender wont serve you because you're weird-looking, because your character has to address that, or leave town and not address it, but now your character isn't doing things in the town anymore, which is where I need you to be. And the players at the table aren't interested in character drama that only affects one player. We've got **** to do, and not a lot of time to do it in.

Half-Elves are boring, 'cause everything that makes them interesting, I - the DM - don't want to touch because I want to get to the part where the party stops the summoning of Yeenoghu. I don't have time for Half-Elf ennui, and I don't want to roleplay that the whole Human or Elf town hates Half-Elves.

I don't think I've ever seen a human town that insisted that the point-ears take the back entrance. The half elf fluff sounds a lot less like "underclass" and a lot more like "I am special and nobody understands me". Which can feel a bit juvenile, especially when most other races have something more proactive as characterization touchpoints. (E.G: dwarves have duty and craftsmanship, gnomes are clever and studious, orcs are brash and straightforwards, etc.)


You could also invert it by having isolationist elves who will talk to the party only because of the half-elf- they're not as friendly with him as they would be with an elf - but because he speaks Elven due to being raised with elves, and knows "secret elven trust passwords" they will give the party information that they would not otherwise get.

Half elves as the intermediaries between elven society and human society, is a thing, in Races of Destiny.

Half elves as protagonists work best when elves are otherworldly and just better than you. Usually this results in settings where, if they were converted into RPG settings, elves would have a high upfront cost to play(a big chunk of build points, high ECL, etc.) if they're available at all. Half elves get a bit of that specialness and protagonistiness while still being closer to the everyman/audience self-insert. There'd be a more distinct narrative role. That's watered down a lot when elves are relatively common and balanced for play with ordinary humans.

When elves are just another PC race and a player can just up and pick one, two things happen. First, there's no reason to have a half elf as an elven envoy when a full elf PC can do that just as easily. Second, when elves are just another people in a cosmopolitan world (which tends to happen in games because again, otherwise you'd have to explain how PCs could come from this isolationist society often enough to be one of the main races published in the PHB), it's a lot easier to just approach one than to make a whole narrative thing about half bloods working well as go-betweens.

[Lord Raziere]

Do you want to get bogged down in a very real, very complex societal issue in a fake game of make-pretend?
Or would you like to play the game?

Only if you define "game" as "comedic hack 'n' slash where things aren't taken very much seriously".

There are other things that are fun. the idea that all fun is this lowest common denominator of near murderhobo silliness designed to allow you to escape from modern life is not an accurate one.

like dude, I play a freeform naruto game all about the politics, social issues, espionage and science of that universes shinobi, cutting out the Akatsuki as villains to focus on how the shinobi nations themselves are horrible and full of people who do war crimes, abuse and manipulate their children so they grow up to do more war crimes, where all the nations have people who are sympathetic or good people but aren't on the PC's side, manipulative and evil people who ARE on the PC's side, while my character is an amoral scientist girl who is a mix of Vegeta, Orochimaru, and Entrapta whose entire story is about whether she turns out a hero or a villain in her ambitious quest to obtain all jutsu like some To be a Master protagonist/villainous power hungry mastermind, with my efforts specifically being to make it as ambiguous and uncertain as possible. and I'm having fun playing out how screwed up that world is. its a most beautiful trainwreck!

people can have fun portraying the pain and suffering, the complexities, the grey, the serious, the dark, and the screwed up. just because you can't, doesn't mean your somehow the only fun around.

[Cheesegear]

I play a freeform naruto game all about the politics, social issues, espionage and science of that universes shinobi, cutting out the Akatsuki as villains to focus on how the shinobi nations themselves are horrible and full of people who do war crimes, abuse and manipulate their children so they grow up to do more war crimes

Bartender wont talk to or serve a specific player character... War crimes.
Bit of an escalation. The only way I can even begin to say how you've missed my point is by bringing in real-world examples, which I obviously can't/wont do.


people can have fun portraying the pain and suffering, the complexities, the grey, the serious, the dark, and the screwed up. just because you can't, doesn't mean your somehow the only fun around.

Are Half-Elves, boring?

Yes. In the same way that Dragonborn, Drow, Half-Orcs, Tieflings and any Volo's race are 'boring.' What makes them interesting as characters is the - usually negative - aspects of roleplaying that the DM and players can include for such species in their world. There are a lot of (mostly negative) roleplaying opportunities to be had when a player plays as those races that present challenges to the players.
However, in my experience, those negative aspects to roleplaying, only really serve as a backstory, for why a character had to leave their home, or to provide a call to adventure. However, once in game proper, those aspects are dropped, because they might impede the game or the plot-thread. A Tiefling is a literal representation of someone, somewhere, at some point, consorting with Fiends. That's gonna stick with people, and not just a single bartender. That's why it's a problem.

I can put in an NPC to roadblock my players for any reason. Including for what their characters are. But it's that NPC, not commonplace that the party has to deal with everywhere they go, because I don't want to play that game, because that sounds miserable, and not in the good way.

If the other players and the DM don't or wont roleplay those negative attributes at the player's character, then you aren't playing the most important aspect of being a Half-Elf.
But I would also contend that any group that don't or wont do it for Half-Elves, doesn't do it for Dragonborn, Drow, etc. either.

[Anymage]

However, in my experience, those negative aspects to roleplaying, only really serve as a backstory, for why a character had to leave their home, or to provide a call to adventure. However, once in game proper, those aspects are dropped, because they might impede the game or the plot-thread. A Tiefling is a literal representation of someone, somewhere, at some point, consorting with Fiends. That's gonna stick with people, and not just a single bartender. That's why it's a problem.

In terms of actual play, yeah. Racial prejudice should be minimal to negligible in terms of play. If nothing else, it tends to get in the way of the PCs doing cool protagonisty things.

In terms of background fluff? The teifling can make the occasional off the cuff remark about wanting to be more than their birthright. Maybe even living beyond peoples expectations of them, even if those expectations never manifest in game beyond the dm occasionally mentioning sideward glances and whispers when the character enters a tavern. Just like the halfling can drop a stray comment about their past community and what compelled them to give up their comforts for adventure.

Half elves? In a cosmopolitan setting where the "outsider" and "go-between" roles aren't really relevant, what's their narrative shtick?

[Mechalich]

Dealing with social issues in-game has two prerequisites. First, the game itself must be sufficiently immersive that the players actually care about social issues in the setting. Only a minority of games meet this bar and most of them aren't set in high fantasy settings. Second, the setting must be sufficiently robust so that it can actually portray such issues in a meaningful fashion. Only a tiny minority of game settings meet this bar and almost none of them are high fantasy. Attempting to handle serious issues in a non-serious or non-functional setting is a recipe for tragicomedy or the worst kind of grimdark and is only suited for deconstruction or black comedy, which are unlikely forms of tabletop gameplay (I mean, anything is possible, apparently Lord Raziere is doing just this in a Naruto game, something that boggles my mind since Naruto's world-building is utterly nonsensical and hilariously awful).

Superhero settings (which includes all 3.X D&D scenarios not level-limited) are particularly bad for this sort of thing because there are no social issues. All power is personal and therefore all politics are personal. If you're a level 15 half-elf wizard and the people of some human small town treat you like garbage because of your heritage you can turn that town into a crater and the only people who can do anything about it will be other level 15 and above full casters. This is why the MCU keeps things light and fun and mostly elides the implications of gods among us to great success and their DC competitors struggled while trying to be serious.

[Lord Raziere]

Attempting to handle serious issues in a non-serious or non-functional setting is a recipe for tragicomedy or the worst kind of grimdark and is only suited for deconstruction or black comedy, which are unlikely forms of tabletop gameplay (I mean, anything is possible, apparently Lord Raziere is doing just this in a Naruto game, something that boggles my mind since Naruto's world-building is utterly nonsensical and hilariously awful).


No its the opposite way around: a sensible or well built setting I have no urge or need to deconstruct or examine, because they too well built and thus already have answers to those questions, which are often good aligned answers that make sure you can't get the maximum drama/suffering out of it, so there is no point to telling a story there. its the ATLA roleplaying problem for me: the story its made to tell is already told and so superbly that I can't think of anything better so I feel no need to ruin the setting by touching it. that and ATLA is kinda of a limited setting for me so not really sparking my imagination.

an unexamined setting full of weirdness on the other hand like Naruto is ripe for being taken and modified to tell the story I want because there is so much blank space to fill and thus ways for the setting to make sense in a way that causes conflict, problems, obstacles and cool stories you wouldn't get otherwise. some of my best characters have come from asking questions that the setting has never asked before and imagining an answer that allows a story to be told, especially if its not a story intended by the original creator. those gaps are the motherlode in the guise of blank canvas! Why go for a setting where I know all the answers? thats boring.

[Dienekes]

In terms of actual play, yeah. Racial prejudice should be minimal to negligible in terms of play. If nothing else, it tends to get in the way of the PCs doing cool protagonisty things.

In terms of background fluff? The teifling can make the occasional off the cuff remark about wanting to be more than their birthright. Maybe even living beyond peoples expectations of them, even if those expectations never manifest in game beyond the dm occasionally mentioning sideward glances and whispers when the character enters a tavern. Just like the halfling can drop a stray comment about their past community and what compelled them to give up their comforts for adventure.

Half elves? In a cosmopolitan setting where the "outsider" and "go-between" roles aren't really relevant, what's their narrative shtick?

I think that really depends on the type of game and players. Though I will admit, I don't think D&D is the best system for working through the intricacies of prejudice, injustice, and the gritty details of life. But it can be done.

[ezekielraiden]

Are Half-Elves, boring?

Yes. In the same way that Dragonborn, Drow, Half-Orcs, Tieflings and any Volo's race are 'boring.' What makes them interesting as characters is the - usually negative - aspects of roleplaying that the DM and players can include for such species in their world. There are a lot of (mostly negative) roleplaying opportunities to be had when a player plays as those races that present challenges to the players.
However, in my experience, those negative aspects to roleplaying, only really serve as a backstory, for why a character had to leave their home, or to provide a call to adventure. However, once in game proper, those aspects are dropped, because they might impede the game or the plot-thread. A Tiefling is a literal representation of someone, somewhere, at some point, consorting with Fiends. That's gonna stick with people, and not just a single bartender. That's why it's a problem.

I can put in an NPC to roadblock my players for any reason. Including for what their characters are. But it's that NPC, not commonplace that the party has to deal with everywhere they go, because I don't want to play that game, because that sounds miserable, and not in the good way.

If the other players and the DM don't or wont roleplay those negative attributes at the player's character, then you aren't playing the most important aspect of being a Half-Elf.
But I would also contend that any group that don't or wont do it for Half-Elves, doesn't do it for Dragonborn, Drow, etc. either.

I don't get why it has to be "mostly negative." You can play both negative and positive stuff here. Positive stuff can be sensory differences, physiology differences, predominant cultural patterns, or instinctual differences. For example, clothing may be cut differently for races with horns, thick scales, hooves, a tail, etc. Furniture might be variably comfortable for different physiologies, food might taste different, idioms might be common for one but not another (e.g. dragonborn might not speak of birth as much as hatching), fight-or-flight patterns might differ. Nothing "negative" about any of these things.

As for whether half-elves (or any other races) are "boring," it's a matter of what you and your DM do with them. With something like a playable race, where it needs to cover a lot of ground because it needs to encompass an enormous variety of player characters, it's a matter of implementation. How did your DM implement that race in the world, and how did you implement your specific character within that context? (Note that this isn't true of 100% of things--feats, for example, can quite easily be boring because all they do is offer a mechanical advantage, e.g. Elven Accuracy is a boring numbers-booster, and there really isn't any room for alternate implementation--but it is true of races.)

In the Dungeon World game I run, there are some elves, who are the descendants of a much older elven civilization that no longer exists. Those forebears left a long time ago, and one of the party is a half-elven descendant of theirs. He has a Cool Sword he inherited from them, which ties into other things in the game. People don't make a fuss about him being half-elven, but it has mattered in various ways (subtle or not-so-subtle) over the course of the game. That's purely because I've made the effort to have it be relevant. If the DM never bothers to make physiology, appearance, or ethno-linguistic origin matter, then of course it's going to be boring.

Likewise, if the player never injects any flavor or texture by considering these facets, again, boring because it's a non-entity. Things don't have to be bad, they just have to differ in one way or another, enough to be worth mentioning. Perhaps tieflings are all tetrachromats--so their clothing can sometimes look "bland" to other races, as most of them can't see the colors the tieflings can. Perhaps dragonborn have a strong sense of actual taste (meaning, sour/bitter/umami/etc., the stuff the tongue itself detects) but a weak sense of smell, and thus their food tends to be seen as overly herbal/seasoned, but under-salted compared to other races. As an example in my campaign world, the otherworld region that genies hail from, Jinnistan, is elementally supercharged compared to the mortal world. This affects Jinnistani food, and in particular, Jinnistani alcohol--mortals generally have to water down Jinnistani wine for potability, or drink it in very small amounts, otherwise it can be a powerful hallucinogen. These properties also make it a powerful alchemical agent, and because the genies charge incredible tariffs on the export of goods, it's always terribly expensive.

[quinron]

This is something that was done by D&D itself, though, by making half-elves and half-orcs into actual races. Now we have half-elves whose mom and dad were both half-elves and who grew up in a half-elf village.


Wait... why can't elves have beards? If the system still bases elves on Tolkien elves, an image search for "rankin-bass hobbit elrond" gives me a definitely-bearded high elf.

These two posts being so near each other is very funny to me. Elrond, a.k.a. Elrond Half-Elven (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elrond), is the son of two half-elves, Eärendil and Elwing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%A4rendil_and_Elwing).

EDIT: Okay, technically Elrond's mother is herself a half-elf, making Elrond a quarter-elf, but her mother is half-Ainur, so Elrond is technically half human, 3/8 elf, 1/8 angel. I didn't know any of this 10 minutes ago.

[Cheesegear]

Though I will admit, I don't think D&D is the best system for working through the intricacies of prejudice, injustice, and the gritty details of life. But it can be done.

Of course it can be done. But with either:
a) Players who aren't mature enough to handle the content, or
b) Players who see themselves within the fictional characters, and thus are real-world offended at/by the DM for including certain storylines and characters (but then also see a)),
Then no it can't be done.


I don't get why it has to be "mostly negative."

Because I'm not talking about the aspects of roleplaying that people don't care about.
If a player gets a social advantage for being a Half-Elf, that's a good thing, and the player isn't going to complain about it, so it's a non-issue at most tables - including mine.

Nobody complains when their character isn't punished - let alone actively rewarded - for something they didn't do.

[ezekielraiden]

Because I'm not talking about the aspects of roleplaying that people don't care about.
If a player gets a social advantage for being a Half-Elf, that's a good thing, and the player isn't going to complain about it, so it's a non-issue at most tables - including mine.

Nobody complains when their character isn't punished - let alone actively rewarded - for something they didn't do.
I never said it had to be a reward; the sword was literally just one example among many. I just showed you had to actively making race mean something. (The cool sword was actually a specific racial feature, or rather, having SOME kind of signature magic item. A sword just made sense for this character.)

You specifically said that most of the way to make things not boring were negative. I'm challenging the notion, which both you and Raziere seem to hold unquestioned--that the only way for race to matter is if it's a problem or a perk. I'm saying it can matter for reasons entirely unrelated to bonuses or penalties, coolness or grimness. It can just be...the quirks or idiosyncrasies of having different physiology, or of ethno-cultural values, or language, etc. No need for trauma, tragedy, bonus-mongering, or ruthless charop. Just teasing out logical (or at least plausible) consequences and concepts from what is known. Y'know, world-building.

[Anymage]

I think that really depends on the type of game and players. Though I will admit, I don't think D&D is the best system for working through the intricacies of prejudice, injustice, and the gritty details of life. But it can be done.

I think we're agreeing here, D&D is not a good place to focus on these issues beyond the most trivial level. Like you might have some oaf make an offhand sexist comment to a female PC, but that's just setting up the oaf to get his comeuppance soon and not a thing the PC will have to face with any regularity.

I do think that a dwarf or elf or dragonborn might make a mild flavor comment reaffirming their dwarf-, elf-, or dragonborniness. Much like how a human character who adds a blurb about his heroic great-grandfather might make a mild flavor comment about that. My point is that barring settings where humans and elves live in very different worlds (and as such, creating the narrative space for half elves as go-betweens), I don't see what bits of fluff a player might add to affirm their half elvishness that wouldn't fit just as well on a full human or elf.

[Lord Raziere]

I never said it had to be a reward; the sword was literally just one example among many. I just showed you had to actively making race mean something. (The cool sword was actually a specific racial feature, or rather, having SOME kind of signature magic item. A sword just made sense for this character.)

You specifically said that most of the way to make things not boring were negative. I'm challenging the notion, which both you and Raziere seem to hold unquestioned--that the only way for race to matter is if it's a problem or a perk. I'm saying it can matter for reasons entirely unrelated to bonuses or penalties, coolness or grimness. It can just be...the quirks or idiosyncrasies of having different physiology, or of ethno-cultural values, or language, etc. No need for trauma, tragedy, bonus-mongering, or ruthless charop. Just teasing out logical (or at least plausible) consequences and concepts from what is known. Y'know, world-building.

I didn't say they didn't matter without being a problem.

I said that they weren't serious without suffering. A joke can matter a lot. Don't underestimate the power of jokes. I'm talking tone, not importance. You need at least some pain for anything to have weight as something to be taken seriously rather than something that makes the tone comedic. and while comedy is fine, too much of it and you get silly hats, overdone stereotypes for the sake of a joke, memes, and everything devolving into absurdity. comedy is incredibly powerful and matters because it has the power to destroy all tension and make everyone go along with the absurdity to balloon it into being even more absurd. it has the power to turn a great and powerful foe into a laughingstock if aimed right. it is the bane of drama and atmosphere if you let it get too powerful.

not to say that comedy can't pair well with pain- one can argue comedy is all about pain, played in a different way. But the reason silly hat races is a thing, is because DnD is seen as "funny fantasy adventure game". See: all instances of murderhobo behavior, crazy plans and other PC shenanigans. allow the tone to be dictated by players and will inevitably devolve into comedy, this is nothing against players or anything, this just social inevitability. you let the races have no tragedy or pain to them, they will matter sure, in the same way any comedic character matters in that they warp the story to be absurd. it will matter, but is it the way you want them to matter? Sure some people want DnD to be "funny fantasy adventure game" and they're free to keep it that way.

But if you want a serious TONE for the races so they stop being a silly hat, there has to be something with weight to it that you can't just laugh off. Thats my point. You have a point to yes, I'm just pointing out that for a full depiction of a life is to depict the downsides in a believable and appropriate manner, thats apart of the mix, you can't ignore it if you want make the races better.

Edit: Behold the power of comedy:

The half elf fluff sounds a lot less like "underclass" and a lot more like "I am special and nobody understands me". Which can feel a bit juvenile, especially when most other races have something more proactive as characterization touchpoints.

With a simple joke, intentional or not, half-elves sound like whiny elf brats who don't have real problems. If a half-elf is born to an abusive elf who sees their offspring as pets whom they will outlive (which they will) that suffering is shoved aside for some generalized image of them being "caught between two worlds" that isn't really accurate to actual complex social issues that people here fear anyways. If a half elf sees something using dark vision in an ignorant human town that associates the trait with more monstrous races and think they're a monster in disguise, that is pushed aside by a comedic light tone that says "no! humans would never be THAT stupid/ignorant/hateful/etc" and any concerns about that are just a joke, because thats all you make of it. If a half elf speaks infernal or abyssal because they're a demon hunter and use those extra languages right but gets suspected of being a demon summoner themselves because of it, thats all wiped away. A meme is a rug that hides many things under it.

[Leon]

No more than humans are. Just that Humans typically get a set of powerful bonuses to make up for how bland they are. Halfelves on the other hand have traditionally gotten squat all.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Guhhhh, now I feel even MORE indecisive as to what my paladin/duelist should be. :smallsigh:

[Mutazoia]

Mechanically at least, in pre 3e days all of the races had level caps (never could understand why an elf that lived for a thousand years could only get to a much lower level in a given class than a human), and class restrictions. The Half-Elf allowed a player to have the racial benefits of the elf and avoid the dual-class non-sense that came with the human kit.

After 3e, Half-Elves became more of an RP point while still giving the character some racial benefits. Since 3e did away with racial level limits and class restrictions, Half-Elves became more fluff.

Whether or not something is boring, however, is entirely up to the individual. One person can take a thing and see the near-endless potential in it. Another can take the same thing and just see a tired trope that they can't milk another ounce of potential out of.

[LibraryOgre]

No more than humans are. Just that Humans typically get a set of powerful bonuses to make up for how bland they are. Halfelves on the other hand have traditionally gotten squat all.

Depends on what you mean by Traditionally. For better than half the life of the hobby, it was pretty standard that humans got nothing. In 2e, half-elves were regarded as a particularly powerful option... most of the elven advantages, with access to some human classes thrown in.

[TridentOfMirth]

Half-Elves definitely have "protagonist energy", as many of the most famous characters in literature and D&D lore are half-elves. I definitely feel like Half-Elves can be pretty boring if you are playing the character as a human+, which is the way a lot of people play them. If you want to spice it up, try emphasizing their unique role in society, how they have one foot in each culture and are not really accepted by either. Dig into the inherent loneliness of being a member of a race who does not have their own unique culture. That you are a member of a race that is not wide spread and, likely, you will rarely, if ever, meet another who shares your same experiences. Alternatively, realize that your character will never be accepted by either society but your character yearns for that acceptance and so becomes either the elf-y-ist elf or the human-y-est human. Maybe play a character who tries to be the most elf like elf while around elves and the most human like human around humans, regularly code switching between the two culture.

[quinron]

Half-Elves definitely have "protagonist energy", as many of the most famous characters in literature and D&D lore are half-elves. I definitely feel like Half-Elves can be pretty boring if you are playing the character as a human+, which is the way a lot of people play them. If you want to spice it up, try emphasizing their unique role in society, how they have one foot in each culture and are not really accepted by either. Dig into the inherent loneliness of being a member of a race who does not have their own unique culture. That you are a member of a race that is not wide spread and, likely, you will rarely, if ever, meet another who shares your same experiences. Alternatively, realize that your character will never be accepted by either society but your character yearns for that acceptance and so becomes either the elf-y-ist elf or the human-y-est human. Maybe play a character who tries to be the most elf like elf while around elves and the most human like human around humans, regularly code switching between the two culture.

I haven't read any official D&D books, so my exposure is limited. I feel like almost all half-elves hit the "human+" and "foot in both cultures" aspects, and I can't think of any that instead hit the "elf-" aspect. I think it could be interesting to play a half-elf among elves who gets treated comparably to how orcs treat half-orcs, but with passive aggressiveness and babying pity instead of open violence.

Maybe your half-elf only knows humans through the stereotypes elves have of them, but is aware of the stereotypes humans have of elves. So instead of celebrating being an elf, they try to hide their elven heritage because they know they can't measure up to the expectation.

[TridentOfMirth]

I haven't read any official D&D books, so my exposure is limited. I feel like almost all half-elves hit the "human+" and "foot in both cultures" aspects, and I can't think of any that instead hit the "elf-" aspect. I think it could be interesting to play a half-elf among elves who gets treated comparably to how orcs treat half-orcs, but with passive aggressiveness and babying pity instead of open violence.

Maybe your half-elf only knows humans through the stereotypes elves have of them, but is aware of the stereotypes humans have of elves. So instead of celebrating being an elf, they try to hide their elven heritage because they know they can't measure up to the expectation.

The books talk about the two cultures aspect but in my years of playing almost everyone goes for humans+ ;)

The idea of elf- is very interesting but that requires buy in from the DM. It also needs to be handled with care because that style of play can easily lead to the player not having fun (especially if they adventure a lot in elf lands). :smallsmile:

[Anymage]

Guhhhh, now I feel even MORE indecisive as to what my paladin/duelist should be. :smallsigh:

You don't always have to play something different. I know lots of folks who gravitate to the same archetypes. So long as you like the character types, go for it.

Alternately, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that other players at the table are going to pay it any more attention than "Zousha likes playing paladins a lot". If your elf or dwarf is just a generally protagonisty dude instead of putting deep thought into just what a century+ lifespan will do to someone's outlook, I seriously doubt anybody else would even notice.

[quinron]

You don't always have to play something different. I know lots of folks who gravitate to the same archetypes. So long as you like the character types, go for it.

Alternately, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that other players at the table are going to pay it any more attention than "Zousha likes playing paladins a lot". If your elf or dwarf is just a generally protagonisty dude instead of putting deep thought into just what a century+ lifespan will do to someone's outlook, I seriously doubt anybody else would even notice.

Despite having offered some suggestions in the thread, Anymage is 100% right - the only times a player's habitual choices are a problem are when either a) they don't fit into the campaign, or b) that player is bogarting a class/special race that they've played before but that another player wants to try this game. In either case, talking about the game with the GM and other players beforehand should keep these from being a problem, and if it doesn't, you probably don't want to play with the person causing these problems anyway.

[Leon]

Depends on what you mean by Traditionally. For better than half the life of the hobby, it was pretty standard that humans got nothing. In 2e, half-elves were regarded as a particularly powerful option... most of the elven advantages, with access to some human classes thrown in.

Fair point, from 3e onwards which is where my experience with the system started is what i'd be referring to then.

[Cheesegear]

Guhhhh, now I feel even MORE indecisive as to what my paladin/duelist should be. :smallsigh:

Hobgoblin, obviously.
Failing that, Lizardfolk.

[RedMage125]

Depends on what you mean by Traditionally. For better than half the life of the hobby, it was pretty standard that humans got nothing. In 2e, half-elves were regarded as a particularly powerful option... most of the elven advantages, with access to some human classes thrown in.
This was my thought when reading this thread as well. I remember when almost no-one played humans, because you could be a half-elf, and have access to almost all classes (except paladin) and still get infravision.


Mechanically at least, in pre 3e days all of the races had level caps (never could understand why an elf that lived for a thousand years could only get to a much lower level in a given class than a human), and class restrictions. The Half-Elf allowed a player to have the racial benefits of the elf and avoid the dual-class non-sense that came with the human kit.
The only DMs I played with in the 2e era did not enforce the level limits on demihumans, but did enforce race/class restrictions. Which means the only reason to ever play a human was if you wanted to be a paladin (which required insanely good dice rolls at character creation).


After 3e, Half-Elves became more of an RP point while still giving the character some racial benefits. Since 3e did away with racial level limits and class restrictions, Half-Elves became more fluff.
I would argue that 3e made half-elves boring. To wit, I found very few people played half-elves in 3.0. Got a little better in 3.5e. My houserule during this era was to offer them the extra skill point of a human or the weapon proficiency of an elf, player's choice.


Fair point, from 3e onwards which is where my experience with the system started is what i'd be referring to then.

Like I said to Mutazoia, I agree on 3e. But 4e half-elves were a very good race, especially for people who planned on multiclassing.

In 5e, Half-Elves are again very popular. In no small part because they are mechanically very strong (especially for any class that gets any use out of Charisma, like Bards, Sorcs, Paladins, and Warlocks).


For my part, I try to make all the races in my homebrew setting have a place that can be interesting. A lot of half-elves in my world are descended from one or more half-elf themselves. I explain that it takes several generations of breeding back into human lines to get an individual who is mechanically a human again. Basically, if you are 20% or more elf, you are mechanically a half-elf. But even those humans descended from half-elf ancestors have slightly elven features (in terms of hair/eye color, slender build, etc). But the same is true for half-orcs. Orc blood is fairly potent, and it takes a few generations to get a human again. And humans with some orc ancestry tend to have more muscular builds, prominent jaw lines, and so on.

Fun story, though, about my world. Since most of my PC concepts end up as NPCs in my world. There is an Elf Bard named Clain Windsong. Bit of a rake. And unusually fertile for an elf. And he's about 600 years old now. Counting his children, grandchildren, and (great-)great-grandchildren...he's personally responsible for about 4% of the half-elves in my world. He's fully aware of how many bastard children he has, but it's never bothered him. "No one writes epic ballads about responsible fathers who stayed home and raised their children", he would say.

[SandyAndy]

The main problem with elves is how long they live. If you live 500 years by default and come of age at 100 then why would you ever get involved with humans? It would be like joining an adventuring party kindergarten. But how do you reduce their age without killing the mystical vibe? Answer: Elves live about twice as long as humans and act kinda weird because they're Fey! They don't really belong here. They only live twice as long as humans, so no more 300-year-old elven archer that's only 1st level for some reason.

[Max_Killjoy]

The main problem with elves is how long they live. If you live 500 years by default and come of age at 100 then why would you ever get involved with humans? It would be like joining an adventuring party kindergarten.


To me the problem there is this notion that elves entire lives a "stretched out", and that they take a century to come of age.

[Tanarii]

This was my thought when reading this thread as well. I remember when almost no-one played humans, because you could be a half-elf, and have access to almost all classes (except paladin) and still get infravision.


The only DMs I played with in the 2e era did not enforce the level limits on demihumans, but did enforce race/class restrictions. Which means the only reason to ever play a human was if you wanted to be a paladin (which required insanely good dice rolls at character creation).I only ever saw half-elves used for their (totally awesome) Multiclassing in AD&D (either edition). Because of level limits, no one wanted to play them single class.

With one exception, I have a solid memory of a 2e Half-elf Bard named Dolomite.
(Edit: I just checks, and 1/2-elf was unlimited as a 2e bard. So that makes sense.)

[Lord Raziere]

The main problem with elves is how long they live. If you live 500 years by default and come of age at 100 then why would you ever get involved with humans? It would be like joining an adventuring party kindergarten. But how do you reduce their age without killing the mystical vibe? Answer: Elves live about twice as long as humans and act kinda weird because they're Fey! They don't really belong here. They only live twice as long as humans, so no more 300-year-old elven archer that's only 1st level for some reason.

More like an adventuring party of pets: its not just that they're young, its that their lifespans are drastically shorter so the elf knows that they're going to outlive them. an adventuring party of kindergarten would be young elves. other races? not even kids. they're pets. sure they might love their pets and their pets can love people back, but at the end of the day the elf knows their pet human has to get put down sooner rather than later and that they will have to get a new one someday. This explains why many of the elves humans meet are rangers or druids: they are the only ones among elf society so in tune with nature that they are willing to interact with and befriend what is to an elf, talking dogs, because they are good with animals in general.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Which brings up a question: how does that impact something like an orphan elf who's grown up in entirely non-elven company, what Pathfinder calls a Forlorn elf? How do you roleplay that in a way that's more interesting than just being generically emo?

[Lord Raziere]

Which brings up a question: how does that impact something like an orphan elf who's grown up in entirely non-elven company, what Pathfinder calls a Forlorn elf? How do you roleplay that in a way that's more interesting than just being generically emo?

Emo? How?

Do you feel generically emo about your dog? No. They're a dog. your happy to see a dog. dogs are excitable, loyal, friendly and always a good time. They're still a dog though, so its not as if your falling in love with that. its sad when they go, but you enjoy the time you have. it can be a happy friendship, it just won't be a very equal one.

[quinron]

Emo? How?

Do you feel generically emo about your dog? No. They're a dog. your happy to see a dog. dogs are excitable, loyal, friendly and always a good time. They're still a dog though, so its not as if your falling in love with that. its sad when they go, but you enjoy the time you have. it can be a happy friendship, it just won't be a very equal one.

Yeah, but how would you feel if, even though you knew other humans were out there, you only ever met dogs?

In answer to Zousha: play them as a smug hipster. Like, any time the human party members are awed or shocked by something, either have the elf roll their eyes at their companions' enthusiasm or sigh at their childish surprise, because no matter what's happening, they've seen it before - or at least they'll pretend they have.

[False God]

Yeah, but how would you feel if, even though you knew other humans were out there, you only ever met dogs?
Go talk to someone who works in an animal shelter or at a pet care place, or veterinarians, lotta people prefer the company of animals to people.

IMO: most people go about elves all wrong. Most of the issues are cultural, not biological. An elf raised in human lands by humans is likely to just think themselves a human, though they might be depressed when they start notably outliving their human friends, but like people who are around animals, they might simply make new friends.

And it's not like these "dogs" can't engage you intellectually, you can have relationships with them, both platonic and intimate. It's not bestiality unless someone has taught you that it is or a society has ruled that it is. An an elf raised in human lands is unlikely to have been taught that, and it's unlikely the lands have legislated against it (but possible!).

The "issues" with elves is as made up as elves are.

[Anymage]

Assuming the elf physically matures at roughly the same pace that the human does, I don't know that they'd know any differently until their human friends started to get old and die off. You get this a lot when you have any sort of creature that has the potential to live for centuries or longer, but who has still only been around for a relatively short period of time.

[Tanarii]

Assuming the elf physically matures at roughly the same pace that the human does, I don't know that they'd know any differently until their human friends started to get old and die off. You get this a lot when you have any sort of creature that has the potential to live for centuries or longer, but who has still only been around for a relatively short period of time.
Yep. A D&D 5e elf is full mature at 20 years old. If they grew up with humans, they'd possibly live an entire human lifetime with their human friends passing away roughly at the same time they became a social adult in elf culture.

[Anymage]

Yep. A D&D 5e elf is full mature at 20 years old. If they grew up with humans, they'd possibly live an entire human lifetime with their human friends passing away roughly at the same time they became a social adult in elf culture.

I almost wonder if it'd be better to say that adventuring elves head out in their twenties and indeed that most young elves wind up feeling the call of adventure. This fixes quite a few things.

First, PC elves act like they have the perspective of young adults, not century+ beings. This helps explain why adventurer elves act the way that they do.

Second, having young elves be prone to headstrong adventuring does explain how you can have elven adventurers be reasonably common while not having elven population dynamics go bonkers because they take so long to die off. Many of them do wind up succumbing to the perils of adventure before they get old enough to "outgrow it" and have the perspective to be considered adults in elven society.

Third, the elves who do make it to the century mark and start to settle down do have a lot of perspective, and most importantly the class levels that came from a long adventuring career. They'd rather not get their hands dirty because they're aware that a bit of bad luck can bring their long lives to an end, but if they have to throw down they get to be awfully scary.

[Duff]

Maybe a half elf isn't the most interesting race for a character. A reasonably well characterised representation of a half elf won't make you character stand out from others the way a well played Satyr (for example) would.

But OTOH, that just means it's a generic chassis to build an interesting character on.
Are your halfelves different classes?
Different styles of combat?
Different roles in the party both in and out of combat?
Do you bring different personalities and dynamics to each character, so that one of your fellow players hearing a story will know from the words and actions which or your characters it was?

But even if you play well characterised Satyrs, you should probably change it up at least sometimes

[Tanarii]

I almost wonder if it'd be better to say that adventuring elves head out in their twenties and indeed that most young elves wind up feeling the call of adventure. This fixes quite a few things.
Agreed. Gnomes and Dwarves too. Being a social adult in their cultures would be the time they'd be expected to "grow up": return home, settle down, get married, have kids, and be responsible (and boring) adults.

[Satinavian]

Second, having young elves be prone to headstrong adventuring does explain how you can have elven adventurers be reasonably common while not having elven population dynamics go bonkers because they take so long to die off. Many of them do wind up succumbing to the perils of adventure before they get old enough to "outgrow it" and have the perspective to be considered adults in elven society.
Splittermond solves that by saying that elven parents only raise one child at a time and only when that one is independent might have the next. This way elven families can be roughly the same size as human ones. This would also lead to elves basically growing up similar to human single children with any potentially existing siblings already adults and living elsewhere and having a role more similar to aunts and uncles.


But yes, over all the various systems it is quite common to have elf adventurers being actually pretty young.

[quinron]

Agreed. Gnomes and Dwarves too. Being a social adult in their cultures would be the time they'd be expected to "grow up": return home, settle down, get married, have kids, and be responsible (and boring) adults.

I like this - it implies that saving the world in a life-and-death adventure is the elven equivalent of a gap year.

[Max_Killjoy]

Splittermond solves that by saying that elven parents only raise one child at a time and only when that one is independent might have the next. This way elven families can be roughly the same size as human ones. This would also lead to elves basically growing up similar to human single children with any potentially existing siblings already adults and living elsewhere and having a role more similar to aunts and uncles.


That's similar to what I did with the ageless species in one of my settings.

I know I didn't accidentally steal it from Splittermond... because I can't read German...

[John Campbell]

I don't recall if Shadowrun supported half-elves, but with 99% of humans turning into a fantasy race they might have been quite interesting.

Shadowrun has no half-anythings. Everyone has one and only one metatype, inherited from one of their parents. If an elf and a human have a child, it's either an elf or a human, not a hybrid.

It's possible for people to have metagenes that aren't expressed because of environmental conditions, though, in which case they appear as human, though they have the metagenes of some other metatype. Ork and troll metagenes can express spontaneously, but elf and dwarf metagenes only express at birth. That means that you can have situations where an elf and a human have a child who's a dwarf, because the human parent was carrying unexpressed dwarf metagenes, or where two human parents have an elven child.

It's rare by the point in the timeline of the typical Shadowrun campaign, but more common earlier in the Awakening, and in fact all elves' ancestors were human not more than maybe four generations back.

And it only happens with humans. You can't have a situation where two elven parents have a dwarven child, or where an ork and a troll have an elven child. But you can, rarely, get throwbacks where two metahuman parents have a human child.

[SandyAndy]

To me the problem there is this notion that elves entire lives a "stretched out", and that they take a century to come of age.

I mean, even if they come of age around 20, think about how different they would be. Have a conversation with someone who is 90, then read a book from the early 1800, that's what a middle-aged elf would be like. I think having them live to be 100 by default is a good fix. They stay relatable while at the same time having exceed human lifespans by 30 or 40 years on average.


More like an adventuring party of pets: its not just that they're young, its that their lifespans are drastically shorter so the elf knows that they're going to outlive them. an adventuring party of kindergarten would be young elves. other races? not even kids. they're pets. sure they might love their pets and their pets can love people back, but at the end of the day the elf knows their pet human has to get put down sooner rather than later and that they will have to get a new one someday. This explains why many of the elves humans meet are rangers or druids: they are the only ones among elf society so in tune with nature that they are willing to interact with and befriend what is to an elf, talking dogs, because they are good with animals in general.

Now, if we actually roleplayed the elves treating the rest of the party like pets then that could be fun. But I could see a lot of "that-guy" types getting a little too into it.