Fort Save: Improving the Odds

[Palanan]

From this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626778-Surviving-A-Thousand-Year-Winter), I have a specific scenario in which I need to increase the chances of townsfolk making a vital Fort save.

I have a large group of townsfolk who have been petrified, who will need to be restored via Stone to Flesh. That requires a DC 15 Fort save, and I want to be sure that everyone makes their save.

What are some ways to do that? Assume that none of them has any magical or psionic ability, and of course they’re petrified so they can’t do anything themselves. There are unpetrified spellcasters available to help, but owing to the scenario, there’s no access to magic above 6th level arcane and divine spells.

Given this, how can we ensure that all the townsfolk make their Fort saves?

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[Brackenlord]

How will you restore the townsfolk with Stone to Flesh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm) if you only have 5th level spell acess?

But on the actual topic, Alter Fortune (PH2) is a 3rd level spell that can make a target reroll a save for 200 XP as an immediate action.

[Palanan]

Sorry, posting before coffee. Corrected.

And thanks for the spell suggestion. I'm wondering if something like Bear's Endurance would work here, but probably not, since statues don't have Con scores.

[RexDart]

Could you put a Cloak of Resistance or the like on a petrified creature and have it work?

The description of petrified says treat as unconscious, so I would think a spell that boosts saves (e.g., Mass Conviction) would work.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RexDart
Could you put a Cloak of Resistance or the like on a petrified creature and have it work?

The description of petrified says treat as unconscious, so I would think a spell that boosts saves (e.g., Mass Conviction) would work.

Good catch on the petrified condition. But I wonder if that conflicts with the specific language in the text for Flesh to Stone:

“The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue.”

The use of “mindless” would seem to conflict with “unconscious,” and the spell doesn’t specifically state that it gives the target the petrified condition. So in terms of specific trumping general, the mindless-statue aspect might override unconscious-petrified.

Is there any other rules text that would clarify this one way or the other, or is this firmly in “it depends/ask your DM” territory?

[Biggus]

Could you put a Cloak of Resistance or the like on a petrified creature and have it work?

The description of petrified says treat as unconscious, so I would think a spell that boosts saves (e.g., Mass Conviction) would work.

If these work, there's also Recitation, which can potentially affect up to ~1800 people per casting. Make sure they stand near people of the same religion before they're petrified for the extra +1 bonus.

If we're doing them one at a time, Superior Resistance and Hand of Divinity also stack, for a total of +15 (assuming Recitation cast by a priest of their religion, and Conviction cast by a 12th-level Cleric). If you can get those who fail a reroll, you should get a 399/400 survival rate among those with Constitution 8 or higher. If you put marker on those known to be weak and sickly, they can have Bear's Endurance cast on them as well, meaning only someone with Con 3 or less has a worse than 1/400 chance of not making it.

The exact figure depends on the percentage of the population with very low Con, but I'd guess with all that you should be looking at no more than 70-ish deaths out of 20,000 people.


Good catch on the petrified condition. But I wonder if that conflicts with the specific language in the text for Flesh to Stone:

“The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue.”

The use of “mindless” would seem to conflict with “unconscious,” and the spell doesn’t specifically state that it gives the target the petrified condition. So in terms of specific trumping general, the mindless-statue aspect might override unconscious-petrified.

Is there any other rules text that would clarify this one way or the other, or is this firmly in “it depends/ask your DM” territory?

Looking at the rules text for Stone to Flesh, it says "this spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state". If creatures affected by Flesh to Stone aren't petrified, it can't undo that spell.

The definition of petrified is "turned to stone", and the spell is called "Flesh to Stone".

Given that, I think you'd have to be a pretty insane rules lawyer to argue that it doesn't work, just because Stone to Flesh doesn't use the word "petrified".

Whether spells can affect petrified creatures is a little less clear, given that Flesh to Stone says "the creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either". However, the fact they refer to it as a creature (as opposed to an object) implies that they can, and it aligns with the definition of petrified as "considered unconscious".

[Quertus]

There are unpetrified spellcasters available to help, but owing to the scenario, there’s no access to magic above 6th level arcane and divine spells.

Given this, how can we ensure that all the townsfolk make their Fort saves?

.

You are technically incorrect: there are 12th level casters at the *start* of the scenario. The depetrification is scheduled for T + 1,000 years (plus a few weeks) from that point.

The level and assortment of casters available at that moment is (or *should* be) one of the unknowns, one of the variables of that thought experiment.

Thus, items like the Cloak, that can be crafted once and used for all, are "guaranteed wins" (EDIT: granted, the initial 12th level casters, plus the town size, determine what items you can *reliably* craft / purchase - so a cloak +5 may require shenanigans). Relying on (12th level) casters (beyond whatever class and level is required for Stone to Flesh) is a risk - albeit a small one. Even higher level casters *may* be available - especially to those towns that optimize for gaining XP (probably not this one, as I recall).

Also, alchemical solutions that can be administered immediately before the petrification process should function, IMO. In that vein, my Necropolis - not needing such things - will happily foster good will by providing as much as they can (if, unlike myself, any Playgrounders make their Knowledge roll, and come up with alchemical items that give Fort bonuses).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
You are technically incorrect….

I think my statement is fine, since the scenario is defined by the sixth-level spell ceiling. But not worth quibbling over, given the following:


Originally Posted by Quertus
The level and assortment of casters available at that moment is (or *should* be) one of the unknowns, one of the variables of that thought experiment.

This on its own is a good enough point to warrant adding to the original thread. It’s something I was meaning to come back to—how magical knowledge would be sustained over a thousand years of isolation.


Originally Posted by Quertus
In that vein, my Necropolis - not needing such things - will happily foster good will by providing as much as they can….

Also worth reposting in the main thread, since this is another point I wanted to follow up on, namely whether and how communities using these different approaches might eventually come into contact with each other.

[RNightstalker]

After 1,000 years would someone have progressed enough to cast 9th level spells? I definitely think this is where Miracle would come in quite handy.