At what level is a Sorcadin better than a Paladin?

[dmhelp]

15? 17? 19? 20? Never?
Please include your Sorcadin split in your answer (e.g. It is late enough to not matter... at level 17 with a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 11.).

[Keravath]

None? In my opinion both the paladin and sorcadin are good builds.

The sorcadin has more versatility but lacks features like improved divine smite and a 30' aura but picks up metamagic and some higher level spell slots for smiting (but since smites cap out with a maximum damage the higher level slots might have much better uses than smiting for a sorcadin).

Sorcadins also have easier access to ranged attack options than a straight paladin. On the other hand, the paladin will get some higher level spells like Circle of power and Greater Find Steed that won't be options for a sorcadin.

I'd give the edge to the sorcadin due to flexibility - having AoE damage, fly spells, greater invisibility, metamagic options - all give the character more options - but if they wanted to be a pure caster they might have been better off with more sorcerer levels and 9th level spells. Most sorcadins have a melee focus and comparing paladin to sorcadin on that basis I'm not sure there is that much difference.

[MaxWilson]

15? 17? 19? 20? Never?
Please include your Sorcadin split in your answer (e.g. It is late enough to not matter... at level 17 with a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 11.).

If I had to do it over again I would take Sorc 1 at level 2 instead of level 7. Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and scaling cantrips are good enough to justify the delay to Extra Attack and Aura of Protection.

Sorc 2 and 3 can wait until either after Pal 6 or Pal 9. That level 8-10 range is a tough one to decide on. Pal 9 has better healing, Sorc 3 has better crowd control and defense. It would depend on the party and how much they feel like they need each, but I'd generally lean towards Pal 9/Sorc 1 first, partly for the ASI.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Better is debatable, but I swear by Pal2/Sorc1 if you want to feel like a sorcadin as fast as possible. Make sure you grab SCAG cantrips, shield, and absorb elements, and you're not going to have any serious scaling problems. From there it's debatable when you should go back to paladin to get to 6-7, if ever, but I like to wait until you have Sorc5 for access to haste and a healthy pool of both spell slots and sorcery points. Then you can return for Oath at 8, Extra Attack at 10, Aura of Protection at 11, and possibly your level 7 aura at 12 if you want it, then return to sorcerer for the rest of your career. That's a pretty smooth progression that more or less matches expected gameplay while letting you feel like a magic knight at all tiers. Most importantly, it works without giving you levels where you feel weak or ineffective, a common mistake for a lot of players in mapping out their characters.

Sorcadin hits a lot harder and has better utility than a vanilla paladin while a vanilla paladin is sturdier, gets a few useful paladin-only spells, and is a lot less fiddly. Ease of play and ease of build is often not discussed when theorycrafting, but it's a very important distinction here. I've seen a sorcadin played poorly, and it absolutely underperforms when the user doesn't have a good grasp of everything it does.

[Gignere]

If I had to do it over again I would take Sorc 1 at level 2 instead of level 7. Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and scaling cantrips are good enough to justify the delay to Extra Attack and Aura of Protection.

Sorc 2 and 3 can wait until either after Pal 6 or Pal 9. That level 8-10 range is a tough one to decide on. Pal 9 has better healing, Sorc 3 has better crowd control and defense. It would depend on the party and how much they feel like they need each, but I'd generally lean towards Pal 9/Sorc 1 first, partly for the ASI.

Unless your DM hand waves V, S, M you must either use a two hander or not use a shield in order to use the shield spell at level 2 for a pal 1 / sorc 1 split. Paladin 1 doesn’t qualify for warcaster.

[MaxWilson]

Unless your DM hand waves V, S, M you must either use a two hander or not use a shield in order to use the shield spell at level 2 for a pal 1 / sorc 1 split. Paladin 1 doesn’t qualify for warcaster.

Or end your turn with a free hand when you expect to need to Shield. You can't opportunity attack and Shield in the same round anyway--all Warcaster does is let you delay the decision so you can deceive your enemies, but you should already know which one is more valuable to you.

[Lokishade]

For a Paladin 2/Sorceror X

At overall level 5, Booming Blade adds a d8. That's almost Improved Divine Smite, right there. Damage wise, it is (disregard the type). And the beauty of it is that you can Quick Cast BB for a second attack. What a beautiful cantrip. And you can opt to smite on both attacks.

For delaying your spell progression by 2 levels, you get heavy armors, martial weapons, a fighting style and Smites that will scale faster. You do get Wish, but at level 19. But if your campaign won't even get to level 17, you don't lose out on that.

[CheddarChampion]

I think a Paladin 6/Sorcerer X surpasses a Paladin X at level 10 and onward.

At that level a pure paladin has Extra Attack, three auras (protection, courage, subclass), two ASI's, and 3rd level paladin spells.
A Sorcadin has Extra Attack, one aura (protection), two ASI's, sorcerer cantrips, 2 types of metamagic, 4 sorcery points, 2nd level paladin spells, 2nd level sorcerer spells, and 4th level spell slots.
Aura of Courage isn't amazing since a Paladin's Wis saves are high. 3rd level paladin spells lose a bit of luster when you can upcast 2nd level spells to 4th level. If all you need to do is hit things with a sword, SCAG cantrips, quicken spell, and 4th level spell slots to use for smiting is quite good. The only negative is that the subclass aura might be really good.

Level 11 gives the paladin IDS but the sorcadin gets 3rd level sorcerer spells known and another cantrip buff.
Level 12 gives the paladin an ASI but the sorcadin 5th level spell slots and a subclass feature.

[Gignere]

Or end your turn with a free hand when you expect to need to Shield. You can't opportunity attack and Shield in the same round anyway--all Warcaster does is let you delay the decision so you can deceive your enemies, but you should already know which one is more valuable to you.

I don’t think this work if you want access to shield for consecutive rounds unless you have a bunch of back up weapons. Or if you are just dropping your weapon on the floor every turn. Of course if I was DM I’d just have the enemy pick up your weapon and run away. Because your action economy would look like this.

1. Draw weapon
2. Attack
3. To free your hand you need to drop weapon because you used your item interaction to draw weapon.

So I don’t know how this would be a viable strategy at all if you need or feel you need shield spell for consecutive rounds.

Or if your DM is nice and doesn’t grabbed your drop weapon i guess you can say you drop your weapon and pick up but that would break my immersion because it would be a totally gamist way to fight.

[Hael]

If I had to do it over again I would take Sorc 1 at level 2 instead of level 7. Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and scaling cantrips are good enough to justify the delay to Extra Attack and Aura of Protection.

Sorc 2 and 3 can wait until either after Pal 6 or Pal 9. That level 8-10 range is a tough one to decide on. Pal 9 has better healing, Sorc 3 has better crowd control and defense. It would depend on the party and how much they feel like they need each, but I'd generally lean towards Pal 9/Sorc 1 first, partly for the ASI.

If I had to redo my sorcadin experience again, I’d try to get the sorcerer lvls online earlier rather than the paladin. Yea aura is amazing. But getting more spell slots is more important for tanking, and crucially spirit guardians is absolutely vital for the area denial factor, otherwise dm just ignores you.

Depending on build, I’d say the Sorcadin surpasses the Paladin somewhere around late tier 2 or early tier 3 and then never relinquishes the title. It also plays very differently, as I tend to like my paladins with 2handed weapons, and this is more sword and shield.

[Dork_Forge]

It really depends on what you mean by better, Sorcerer brings casting an accelerated slot progression to the table at the cost of lay on hands and hp progression.

If I had to play one I'd go for Paladin 6/Sorc6/Paladin8 an

I have a player that stopped Paladin at 5 and multiclassed into Divine Soul with no intentions of looking back at the moment (he jsut hit Pal 5/Sorc 2). I'm curious how his play will go as he falls behind in hp and becomes the lowest hp member of the group given his start out as the party tank.


For a Paladin 2/Sorceror X

At overall level 5, Booming Blade adds a d8. That's almost Improved Divine Smite, right there. Damage wise, it is (disregard the type). And the beauty of it is that you can Quick Cast BB for a second attack. What a beautiful cantrip. And you can opt to smite on both attacks.

For delaying your spell progression by 2 levels, you get heavy armors, martial weapons, a fighting style and Smites that will scale faster. You do get Wish, but at level 19. But if your campaign won't even get to level 17, you don't lose out on that.

Booming Blade is not Improved Divine Smite, you get the added damage on BB once an action, you get IDS every hit. By the time you get the second d8 on BB you could've been using Extra Attack for 6 levels for better damage and more chances overall to hit (and Smite). Team mate cast Haste on you? You're going to get more out of IDS. Opportunity attack? Unless you've invested in a feat on a multiclass, IDS wins again.

[Gignere]

It really depends on what you mean by better, Sorcerer brings casting an accelerated slot progression to the table at the cost of lay on hands and hp progression.

If I had to play one I'd go for Paladin 6/Sorc6/Paladin8 an

I have a player that stopped Paladin at 5 and multiclassed into Divine Soul with no intentions of looking back at the moment (he jsut hit Pal 5/Sorc 2). I'm curious how his play will go as he falls behind in hp and becomes the lowest hp member of the group given his start out as the party tank.



Booming Blade is not Improved Divine Smite, you get the added damage on BB once an action, you get IDS every hit. By the time you get the second d8 on BB you could've been using Extra Attack for 6 levels for better damage and more chances overall to hit (and Smite). Team mate cast Haste on you? You're going to get more out of IDS. Opportunity attack? Unless you've invested in a feat on a multiclass, IDS wins again.

Sorcadin can close the gap with IDS by casting Shadowblade or spirit shroud. Not only close the gap but exceed the damage of IDS handily although blowing long rest resources.

[Dork_Forge]

Sorcadin can close the gap with IDS by casting Shadowblade or spirit shroud. Not only close the gap but exceed the damage of IDS handily although blowing long rest resources.

Yes, those spells help with damage, I was specifically talking about the Booming Blade comparison.

Worth noting alongside it that both spells are costing you slots, bonus actions and your concentration, not saying that they're bad uses of those things, but there's definitely opportunity cost (a 2nd level Shadow Blade could have been a 3d8 Smite, so you have to get so many uses out of it for it actually to be better than just IDS + DS).

[Gignere]

Yes, those spells help with damage, I was specifically talking about the Booming Blade comparison.

Worth noting alongside it that both spells are costing you slots, bonus actions and your concentration, not saying that they're bad uses of those things, but there's definitely opportunity cost (a 2nd level Shadow Blade could have been a 3d8 Smite, so you have to get so many uses out of it for it actually to be better than just IDS + DS).

I think the easy advantage from Shadow Blade will allow it to make up for the 3d8 damage quite easily. Paladins other than vengeance don’t really have easy access to self generated advantage and even vengeance paladin only has it once per rest.

[Aimeryan]

I don’t think this work if you want access to shield for consecutive rounds unless you have a bunch of back up weapons. Or if you are just dropping your weapon on the floor every turn. Of course if I was DM I’d just have the enemy pick up your weapon and run away. Because your action economy would look like this.

1. Draw weapon
2. Attack
3. To free your hand you need to drop weapon because you used your item interaction to draw weapon.

So I don’t know how this would be a viable strategy at all if you need or feel you need shield spell for consecutive rounds.

Or if your DM is nice and doesn’t grabbed your drop weapon i guess you can say you drop your weapon and pick up but that would break my immersion because it would be a totally gamist way to fight.

The enemy runs away when getting a weapon? That sounds like a great way to defeat enemies! 2sp to defeat an enemy, excellent!

To be fair, you are really only looking at humanoids that are going to even pick up a weapon in the first place. The real point to be made here, though, is that to draw and sheath a weapon is interacting with one object - you're all good, no need to drop the weapon.



Booming Blade is not Improved Divine Smite, you get the added damage on BB once an action, you get IDS every hit. By the time you get the second d8 on BB you could've been using Extra Attack for 6 levels for better damage and more chances overall to hit (and Smite).

At level 11, Booming Blade deals WD + 2d8, with an additional + 3d8 if the target moves. At level 11, IDS deals 2WD + 2d8. This means Booming Blade is only a single WD behind if the target does not move, while it is 3d8 - WD in front if the target does. Given that forcing the target not to move is very highly likely more valuable than losing a single WD I would opine that this is a handy win for Booming Blade in either case.

If we throw Haste in? Now we are in a very complex situation because you are comparing against all possible Concentration spells in the respective class's list - this is not an easy evaluation. PAM is another comparison point, however, we then have to factor in either losing the shield or using a spear (an inferior weapon for damage), the comparisons for ASI/Feats, and the use of the Bonus Action - easier, but still not easy.

As we are talking about Sorcadin vs Paladin here, we also have to factor in Metamagic - particularly, Quicken. Without PAM there is little to use the Bonus Action on, so we shouldn't really ignore it. Limited resource, however, it is a resource a pure Paladin does not have anyhow. Quicken doubles the damage of Booming Blade (including the additional part, as long as the target moves 10ft).

[Dork_Forge]

I think the easy advantage from Shadow Blade will allow it to make up for the 3d8 damage quite easily. Paladins other than vengeance don’t really have easy access to self generated advantage and even vengeance paladin only has it once per rest.

Situational advantage, if you're in bright light then it's non existant, some things to think about:

-It's day time or you're just in a well lit area
-Your party is using a light source, presumably because it's dark and not everyone has dark vision
-The enemy notices you seem to be more effective in the dark and takes the daring counter move of striking a torch
-You're fighting something that also benefits from being in the dark

Situational advantage if too, well situational to just use as a comparison point against something guaranteed like a smite.




At level 11, Booming Blade deals WD + 2d8, with an additional + 3d8 if the target moves. At level 11, IDS deals 2WD + 2d8. This means Booming Blade is only a single WD behind if the target does not move, while it is 3d8 - WD in front if the target does. Given that forcing the target not to move is very highly likely more valuable than losing a single WD I would opine that this is a handy win for Booming Blade in either case.

This isn't actually right since you're only looking at dice, not modifiers or other sources of static damage. BB isn't just a WD behind, it's also a modifier (presumably +5) behind as well as any other bonuses (Dueling, added damage from a magic weapon, spell damage like Divine Favor). In terms of damage BB will only ever come out on top if the target moves, which unless you're specifically building to provoke that movement (Mobile) is so far from reliable it's not worth mentioning.

The lock down ability of BB is also, imo, overrated. Often times the monster was going to go for the PC in question anyway, is happy to settle or what? Takes additional damage once to get to their desired target.

So behind in damage with a very situational and unreliable rider, whilst using an inferior damage type (Thunder vs Radiant)



If we throw Haste in? Now we are in a very complex situation because you are comparing against all possible Concentration spells in the respective class's list - this is not an easy evaluation. PAM is another comparison point, however, we then have to factor in either losing the shield or using a spear (an inferior weapon for damage) as well as the comparisons for ASI/Feats - easier, but still not easy.

This isn't that complicated, Haste is a pretty common buff used by parties and PCs like Paladins are common targets of said spell, it doesn't have to be self cast and self casting as an action is arguably a bad move. As for things like PAM etc. those are just additional tactics that BB users don't benefit from or don't benefit from as much. Inferior weapon damage means very little in the grand scheme of things since you're trading what, 1-2 damage per hit on average for an additional 12 average damage from an IDS PAM bonus? (1d4+5+1d8) The BB user was only getting one weapon attack off as standard to begin with anyway, a WD size advantage isn't exactly doing them many favours and if it was a case of losing the shield vs using a Glaive etc.? The straight paladin at this point would have (assuming a Pal 2/Sorc 9 split) an 18hp advantage to afford to take the odd extra hit and a big enough pool of Lay on Hands to recover from it afterwards.

[Gignere]

Situational advantage, if you're in bright light then it's non existant, some things to think about:

-It's day time or you're just in a well lit area
-Your party is using a light source, presumably because it's dark and not everyone has dark vision
-The enemy notices you seem to be more effective in the dark and takes the daring counter move of striking a torch
-You're fighting something that also benefits from being in the dark
.

My experience with Shadowblade is that I’ve gotten more attacks of advantage with SB than the Paladin has smite in total. Not just a little but way way more than the Paladin has smite.

If your enemy is busy spending his action lighting torches to counter you you probably won the fight as that is one round it is doing nothing. I would totally blow a level two spell and get a round of advantage and have the enemy lose a turn.

[Aimeryan]

This isn't actually right since you're only looking at dice, not modifiers or other sources of static damage. BB isn't just a WD behind, it's also a modifier (presumably +5) behind as well as any other bonuses (Dueling, added damage from a magic weapon, spell damage like Divine Favor). In terms of damage BB will only ever come out on top if the target moves, which unless you're specifically building to provoke that movement (Mobile) is so far from reliable it's not worth mentioning.

The lock down ability of BB is also, imo, overrated. Often times the monster was going to go for the PC in question anyway, is happy to settle or what? Takes additional damage once to get to their desired target.

So behind in damage with a very situational and unreliable rider, whilst using an inferior damage type (Thunder vs Radiant)

Static modifiers will favour IDS, percentage modifiers will favour BB. The problem is, those aren't part of either, and we can not presume what modifiers are in play.

You seem to be conflicted on the movement aspect; you say the enemy will move anyway, then say it is unreliable the enemy will move. It is moot anyhow, since both the enemy taking more damage or losing out on attacking is favourable for the player.

The damage type is rarely relevant for these two types, and not always in favour of IDS. It is something to take note of, but not very significant.



This isn't that complicated, Haste is a pretty common buff used by parties and PCs like Paladins are common targets of said spell, it doesn't have to be self cast and self casting as an action is arguably a bad move. As for things like PAM etc. those are just additional tactics that BB users don't benefit from or don't benefit from as much. Inferior weapon damage means very little in the grand scheme of things since you're trading what, 1-2 damage per hit on average for an additional 12 average damage from an IDS PAM bonus? (1d4+5+1d8) The BB user was only getting one weapon attack off as standard to begin with anyway, a WD size advantage isn't exactly doing them many favours and if it was a case of losing the shield vs using a Glaive etc.? The straight paladin at this point would have (assuming a Pal 2/Sorc 9 split) an 18hp advantage to afford to take the odd extra hit and a big enough pool of Lay on Hands to recover from it afterwards.

It doesn't matter if it is common or not, cast by someone else or not - it still competes with other options that make it very difficult to fairly compare. I am certainly not up to comparing against all those possibilities - if you wish to assert it is the best option then you will need to make the comparisons.

PAM has other comparisons that need to be made, as I mentioned. It is not free to compare IDS to BB. If we start adding in these things we need to start adding in everything else, which becomes very complex.

The only easy point to be made here is that BB is very competitive with IDS, such that claims of needing level 11 for IDS are much overstated. BB compares just fine and does not need 11 levels specifically in Paladin, which is very relevant when discussing multiclass breakpoints.

[bendking]

Static modifiers will favour IDS, percentage modifiers will favour BB. The problem is, those aren't part of either, and we can not presume what modifiers are in play.

You seem to be conflicted on the movement aspect; you say the enemy will move anyway, then say it is unreliable the enemy will move. It is moot anyhow, since both the enemy taking more damage or losing out on attacking is favourable for the player.

The damage type is rarely relevant for these two types, and not always in favour of IDS. It is something to take note of, but not very significant.




It doesn't matter if it is common or not, cast by someone else or not - it still competes with other options that make it very difficult to fairly compare. I am certainly not up to comparing against all those possibilities - if you wish to assert it is the best option then you will need to make the comparisons.

PAM has other comparisons that need to be made, as I mentioned. It is not free to compare IDS to BB. If we start adding in these things we need to start adding in everything else, which becomes very complex.

The only easy point to be made here is that BB is very competitive with IDS, such that claims of needing level 11 for IDS are much overstated. BB compares just fine and does not need 11 levels specifically in Paladin, which is very relevant when discussing multiclass breakpoints.

Quick question, why are we comparing BB to IDS instead of comparing BB to Extra Attack, on which IDS actually compounds?

[Hael]

I have a player that stopped Paladin at 5 and multiclassed into Divine Soul with no intentions of looking back at the moment (he jsut hit Pal 5/Sorc 2). I'm curious how his play will go as he falls behind in hp and becomes the lowest hp member of the group given his start out as the party tank.
.

Hp and lay on hands progression falls off incredibly hard in late tier 2. Those ~20ish extra hp become much less than a single use of shield or absorb elements. Since we are effectively trading slots (and sorcerer points) vs those resources, a math analysis could be made on when things cross over.

In practice after the early lvls Sorceror lvls will be considerably more tanky assuming the sorcadin runs out of spell slots during a typical combat day (which in my anecdotal experience does).

Now aura otoh is a big deal for damage mitigation, and that scales very well into the endgame. So the pal5 is making a pretty big mistake by ignoring that last lvl and begs the question why he went to five in the first place. Extra attack is only a marginal and depreciating dpr gain over GFB or BB and only worth with feats (which the famously asi starved sorcadin doesn’t have).

[stoutstien]

Quick question, why are we comparing BB to IDS instead of comparing BB to Extra Attack, on which IDS actually compounds?

IDS applies to every weapon attack so if you are trying to compare it straight up against BB you have to run the full range off attacks possible. Most of the time IDS will see 3 attacks per round but 4 or even 5 isn't impossible depending on feats and other resources spent.

Then cross reference it all against stimulated fights to see how the DPR translates. Does either one have an edge in terms of action costs to over come different circumstances.

[RSP]

IDS applies to every weapon attack so if you are trying to compare it straight up against BB you have to run the full range off attacks possible. Most of the time IDS will see 3 attacks per round but 4 or even 5 isn't impossible depending on feats and other resources spent.

Why is IDS getting 3 attacks “most of the time”? Are you assuming most 11th level Paladins are PAM Paladins?

[diplomancer]

Why is IDS getting 3 attacks “most of the time”? Are you assuming most 11th level Paladins are PAM Paladins?

Not 11th, but it's the best feat for a Paladin to get at level 12th ; only good reason NOT to get it is if you have a good enough magic weapon that does not work with the feat; but then, you have to calculate THAT in the comparison with GFB/BB.

[stoutstien]

Why is IDS getting 3 attacks “most of the time”? Are you assuming most 11th level Paladins are PAM Paladins?

I'm assuming that if we are comparing a well tuned multi-class option then we should compare it to a single class that is equally built. After 11 twf is a very valid resource free way to get 3 attacks off or there about 6 other ways to gain a bonus action attack. It's not exactly a rare feature.

[RSP]

I'm assuming that if we are comparing a well tuned multi-class option then we should compare it to a single class that is equally built. After 11 twf is a very valid resource free way to get 3 attacks off or there about 6 other ways to gain a bonus action attack. It's not exactly a rare feature.

Gotcha and thanks for clarifying. How are you getting 5 attacks? (I’m assuming 4 is with Haste.)

[stoutstien]

Gotcha and thanks for clarifying. How are you getting 5 attacks? (I’m assuming 4 is with Haste.)

AOO or other reaction based options. Paladins are really fun to look at because they aren't reliant on weapon damage die/mod to deal the bulk of their damage. On the same note they also have multiple chances a round to deal that damage compared to a rogue or Scag cantrips user.

Ob the flip side advantage for a single attack is easier to generate than advantage for an entire attack action and BB+ WC is massive swing.

From my personal observations I would say you can freely plug either into a party and the net results on who comes out "better" falls on RNG and individual table meta.

[mistajames]

Apples and oranges. These builds are really quite different. In fact, even Sorcadins can be quite different to each other compared on what Paladin/Sorcerer split you're using.

Paladin gets Smite and L1 spells at 2, Aura of Protection and Extra Attack at 6, their L7 subclass ability at 7, and Improved Divine Smite at 11.The most common splits are P2/S18, P6/S14, P7/S13, and P12/S8.

P2/S18 is basically a Sorcerer that can mix it up in melee. P6/S14 is a fairly good 50/50 split with balanced attack and defence. P7/S13 or P8/S12 are usually niche builds that lean on the Paladin subclass ability. P11/S9 and P12/S8 are basically Paladins with some extra spell slots.

Even considering the overall Sorcadin build, how do you split it up? Usually P2/S18 will take 2 levels of Paladin at the start (for proficiencies, smite, and spell slot progression) and then crank Sorcerer to get spell slots and metamagic. P6/S14 is basically a Paladin for all of T1 and T2 play with some extra spell slots and plays quite differently to P2/S18, though you can take a Sorcerer level to open up stuff like Shield, Armor of Agathys, and subclass abilities (though delaying Extra Attack (offset somewhat by SCAG cantrips) and Aura of Protection).

Key Sorcerer levels are really just odd levels (i.e. - when you open up new spell levels). Key Paladin levels are 1, 2, 6, 7, 11.