Divine Sense

[RSP]

Hadn’t noticed this before but the Paladin’s Divine Sense has an always active component:

“The presence of strong evil registers on your Senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears.”

How do you all play this? Does “strong evil” and “powerful good” translate into the creature types mentioned in the Action-required part of the ability? Similarly, do you all just assume the same 60’ range?

[Angelalex242]

Nothing is always on, sadly. It'd be cool if it was, though. Also be cool if it leveled up at some point to Detect Evil and Good levels.

[Greywander]

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

Given that this sentence follows directly after the one you quoted, I think it's implied that this isn't always on (you can't "detect such forces" without spending an action to do so). Rather, it's just a fluff description for how you perceive such things while using the ability.

[J.C.]

Play a Dex-based character who is compulsively casting Guidance. He believes the End of Times is near. Alert feat.

[RSP]

Nothing is always on, sadly. It'd be cool if it was, though. Also be cool if it leveled up at some point to Detect Evil and Good levels.


"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

Given that this sentence follows directly after the one you quoted, I think it's implied that this isn't always on (you can't "detect such forces" without spending an action to do so). Rather, it's just a fluff description for how you perceive such things while using the ability.

I think the sentence layout is what leads me to believe it’s always on. Had the two sentences been reversed, I’d agree there’s nothing always on. Compare the two:

“The presence of strong evil registers on your Senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears. As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces.”

This reads like (a) you have this ability related to smell and sound, and (b) as an Action you can further open yourself up to detect said forces.

“As an action, you can open your awareness to detect the presence of strong evil and powerful good. Such forces register on your Senses like a noxious odor, and rings like heavenly music in your ears, respectively.”

Obviously, I needed to switch the structure around to make sense of the order swap, but this sentence sounds like the scent and hearing are only on when the Action is used.

Moreover, smell and sound have no normal, nor rational, effect on total cover: that is, if a radio is behind a rock (total cover), I can’t see it, but I can still hear it. Likewise if it was a very pungent odor: it’ll waft around a rock.

Further, how would smelling something within 60’ of you, let you pinpoint its location? This isn’t possible even by the best tracking dogs (they’d need to follow the smell to its source).

Hearing might work better, but not much. If multiple Celestials are within 60 feet, how would you pinpoint which celestial is where based on “music in your ears”? I doubt you could.

The way this ability is described, it works like such:

DM: “Percival, you suddenly smell a noxious odor.”
Percival: “Like something evil is in the area? I use my Action to open my awareness and try to pinpoint where it’s coming from.”
DM: “Okay, mark off one of your uses of Divibe Sense.”

I don’t know that it logically can read that the first is just a description of the second sentence.

[MrStabby]

I think they could have gone with a semicolon to make it clearer rather than a full stop between the sentences.

[RSP]

I think they could have gone with a semicolon to make it clearer rather than a full stop between the sentences.

The wording still suggests it’s always on. I imagine it’s similar to a camera letting in more light when the lens aperture opens up: light still comes through on its smallest setting however, as it opens, more comes in.

You initially sense something, specifically a bad smell. You can then “open your awareness” to it, which allows you to pinpoint the location, as well as determine how many, and whether each creature within 60’ is Undead or Fiend.

[MrStabby]

The wording still suggests it’s always on. I imagine it’s similar to a camera letting in more light when the lens aperture opens up: light still comes through on its smallest setting however, as it opens, more comes in.

You initially sense something, specifically a bad smell. You can then “open your awareness” to it, which allows you to pinpoint the location, as well as determine how many, and whether each creature within 60’ is Undead or Fiend.

Oh, I agree thematically its always on, just there is no mechanical impact without spending an action/use.

[RSP]

Oh, I agree thematically its always on, just there is no mechanical impact without spending an action/use.

The impact is knowing you’re within 60’ of a fiend, celestial or undead. The Action is needed to pinpoint it.

[ScoutTrooper]

The way I ran it with my Paladin player. Is if near enough to evil or good (and I remembered) I would whisper/pass note to him about either noxious smell or harmonious singing. When they chose to 'pinpoint' it, i.e. use the action, then I would indicate the souce. I believe only once in combat was it used, most times was out of combat it functioned as a RP tool.

[Verble]

That's just flavor text not rules text.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's just flavor text not rules text.

There is no such distinction in 5e. All text in the PHB is rules text unless it specifically says otherwise (such as examples).
-------------
However, there is a general pattern to how abilities are written, and the basic unit of context is the paragraph.

Sentence 1: introduces the ability, giving in-universe context.
Sentences 2-N: refine exactly how that context manifests at the game level.

Sometimes sentence 1 is missing. But in no case is it just ignorable fluff.

Individual sentences rarely, if ever, have independent effect. Only at the paragraph level are they meaningful. Note that they do paragraph breaks for things like "Additionally, [...]" That introduces that the ability has multiple independent effects.

As a result, Divine Sense has only the activated ability.

However, as a matter of play, I extend Divine Sense to also detecting residues of particular things (so someone who has been heavily involved in demon summoning would detect faintly, while clearly not a demon themselves). I do similar things to Detect Magic and Detect Evil and Good. And for very strong environmental effects (magical, infernal, elemental, etc), I'll tend to give people with appropriate skills/backgrounds/class features information like "the spirits of nature seem to be screaming constantly here" as a passive effect. Because I love giving people more information.

[Mellack]

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

That statement only makes sense if the action is required for the smell/sound. Otherwise you would already be detecting them.

[RSP]

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

That statement only makes sense if the action is required for the smell/sound. Otherwise you would already be detecting them.

Disagree. The sentence says what it means. You can smell/hear them, and then, as an Action, can open your senses to pinpoint their location, and what types of the three are present.

Why wouldn’t that make sense otherwise?

[PhantomSoul]

There is no such distinction in 5e. All text in the PHB is rules text unless it specifically says otherwise (such as examples).
-------------
However, there is a general pattern to how abilities are written, and the basic unit of context is the paragraph.

Sentence 1: introduces the ability, giving in-universe context.
Sentences 2-N: refine exactly how that context manifests at the game level.

Sometimes sentence 1 is missing. But in no case is it just ignorable fluff.

Individual sentences rarely, if ever, have independent effect. Only at the paragraph level are they meaningful. Note that they do paragraph breaks for things like "Additionally, [...]" That introduces that the ability has multiple independent effects.

As a result, Divine Sense has only the activated ability.


Entirely agreed, but I would say that sentence 1 in that breakdown is flavour text / fluff (it's not the mechanical description; sometimes text is both flavour and mechanics of course, though), so it may just be a definitions game.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Entirely agreed, but I would say that sentence 1 in that breakdown is flavour text / fluff (it's not the mechanical description; sometimes text is both flavour and mechanics of course, though), so it may just be a definitions game.

Fluff means you can ignore it at will. The first sentence isn't fluff--it's the actual in universe thing going on. And that's important. The others are the game UI depiction--creature types, actions, those aren't universe things. Those are game UI.

I care about this because those that accept this style of interpretation end up with way fewer issues--all the phrase by phrase parsing and proof texting goes away once you read at the paragraph level. And the rules are way more natural.

[Mellack]

Disagree. The sentence says what it means. You can smell/hear them, and then, as an Action, can open your senses to pinpoint their location, and what types of the three are present.

Why wouldn’t that make sense otherwise?

Because smelling/hearing is already detecting them. Why mention that need to spend an action to detect these forces if you are already doing so? Pinpointing is a different thing then detecting. I am detecting smoke when I smell it, even if I cannot pinpoint it. I think the statement does say what it means, which is that it takes an action to detect, not locate them. I believe you are confusing this statement with the following where it talks about pinpointing.

[RSP]

Fluff means you can ignore it at will. The first sentence isn't fluff--it's the actual in universe thing going on. And that's important. The others are the game UI depiction--creature types, actions, those aren't universe things. Those are game UI.


In this case, the first sentence is a little more. In 5e, PCs aren’t assumed to have olfactory senses so sensitive that they can pinpoint the source of a smell from 60’ away. However, for you to be correct in your assessment, that would have to be the case - that is, in-game the character can now smell evil when they take ~6 seconds to focus - because nothing in the ability increases the character’s sense of smell to that degree (otherwise you could pinpoint more than just Undead, Fiends, or Celestials).

Edit: in other words, the ability has two parts: 1) fiends, undead and Celestials now how a smell you can notice; and 2) using an Action you can pinpoint their location. At no point does it make you better at smelling or hearing, though. So if the first line was simple how the ability manifests in-game, it wouldn’t make any sense, as simply smelling something doesn’t let you know the location of the source.


Because smelling/hearing is already detecting them. Why mention that need to spend an action to detect these forces if you are already doing so? Pinpointing is a different thing then detecting. I am detecting smoke when I smell it, even if I cannot pinpoint it. I think the statement does say what it means, which is that it takes an action to detect, not locate them. I believe you are confusing this statement with the following where it talks about pinpointing.

You’re using your Action to “know the location of any Celestial, fiend, or Undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover.” This is more than simply “detecting” them.

With out using said Action, you’re left with the first sentence, which is like your smoke example: without an action, you just smell smoke and don’t know where it’s coming from; but with an action, you know exactly where the source is (assuming it’s within 60’).

[Angelalex242]

All I can add here is, never have I ever had a DM treat Divine Sense like it was even partially always on. I had to use the action to get the benefit.

And since I frequently play Adventure League, there is no 'fringe benefit' to Divine Sense in that format.

[JackPhoenix]

With out using said Action, you’re left with the first sentence, which is like your smoke example: without an action, you just smell smoke and don’t know where it’s coming from; but with an action, you know exactly where the source is (assuming it’s within 60’).

Without using said action, you're left with nothing, because you haven't "opened your awareness to detect such forces". If you don't detect something, you can't smell it (or see it, touch it, hear it or taste it, for that matter).

[Tanarii]

Entirely agreed, but I would say that sentence 1 in that breakdown is flavour text / fluff (it's not the mechanical description; sometimes text is both flavour and mechanics of course, though), so it may just be a definitions game.
Fluff/mechanics is a false distinction. That's the point being made.

Edit: Note that "Fluff" usually carriers the context "not a rule" + "therefore you are free to ignore or change it". That's why it's a false distinction. At least, in 5e. (i.e. in 4e it was an explicit distinction.)


"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

That statement only makes sense if the action is required for the smell/sound. Otherwise you would already be detecting them.

Without using said action, you're left with nothing, because you haven't "opened your awareness to detect such forces". If you don't detect something, you can't smell it (or see it, touch it, hear it or taste it, for that matter).

Agreed. This sentence is a contingent clarifier of the previous one.

There are more than a few places that 5e has rules written this way.

[PhantomSoul]

Fluff/mechanics is a false distinction. That's the point being made.

Edit: Note that "Fluff" usually carriers the context "not a rule" + "therefore you are free to ignore or change it". That's why it's a false distinction. At least, in 5e. (i.e. in 4e it was an explicit distinction.)


I wasn't treating it as a mutually exclusive binary, but you're right -- I hadn't accounted for the connotations that are pretty likely. I don't think of fluff as irrelevant (though it is more obviously mutable or can inform cases when the mechanics have to be revised).

[Tanarii]

I wasn't treating it as a mutually exclusive binary, but you're right -- I hadn't accounted for the connotations that are pretty likely. I don't think of fluff as irrelevant (though it is more obviously mutable or can inform cases when the mechanics have to be revised).
Yah, the connotation is why PhoenixPhyre is referring to it as "in-universe" instead of "fluff". It's an in-universe rule, followed by game-layer and further in-universe rules.

The dividing line between the two isn't always clear (depending on the RPG in question), and it's not necessarily the case that in-universe rules are more mutable. Although certainly there's a large segment of late 3e and early 4e gen players that believe both of those things to always be the case. Unsurprising given that's when the "fluff vs mechanics" meme reached its zenith.

[Mellack]

You’re using your Action to “know the location of any Celestial, fiend, or Undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover.” This is more than simply “detecting” them.

With out using said Action, you’re left with the first sentence, which is like your smoke example: without an action, you just smell smoke and don’t know where it’s coming from; but with an action, you know exactly where the source is (assuming it’s within 60’).

Sorry, but that is not what it says. You are interpreting that the action refers to the later sentences but not the first sentence or the rest of the same sentence.

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

The detect portion is undeniably attached to the spending of an action. Without spending an action, no detection. You want to give detection for free, which I think is directly contradicted by that sentence. Instead you want to give location as the action.

If the second sentence is not read as an expansion on the first, then it puts them in conflict as you both always detecting and only detecting with an action.

[Angelalex242]

I do think Divine Sense should 'level up' as the Paladin gains levels.

Maybe at level 9 it expands to become Detect Evil and Good (Which detects a LOT more things)

Maybe at 13 (or 17?) it becomes 'always on' as suggested in this thread.

[Greywander]

I do think Divine Sense should 'level up' as the Paladin gains levels.

Maybe at level 9 it expands to become Detect Evil and Good (Which detects a LOT more things)

Maybe at 13 (or 17?) it becomes 'always on' as suggested in this thread.
Doesn't it already scale the number of uses with your CHA mod?

I do think something like an always-on Detect Evil and Good sounds like a very paladin-y thing. But of course it ruins all of the DMs plans to have a vampire or succubus hidden among the regular people. As it is, I imagine a lot of DMs already complain about Divine Sense ruining their carefully crafted plot, which is a shame because that means it's being used as intended. A lot of DMs get too caught up in planning the "story" that they forget the PCs are supposed to foil the villains' plot. Catching a fiend or undead in disguise makes the paladin player feel good about having played a paladin, as well as their judicious use of a limited resource in Divine Sense.

[Angelalex242]

The default ability is more used as confirmation than true detection.

"Hey, that might be the vampire."

"Okay, lemme check. Divine Sense!"

[RSP]

Doesn't it already scale the number of uses with your CHA mod?

I do think something like an always-on Detect Evil and Good sounds like a very paladin-y thing. But of course it ruins all of the DMs plans to have a vampire or succubus hidden among the regular people. As it is, I imagine a lot of DMs already complain about Divine Sense ruining their carefully crafted plot, which is a shame because that means it's being used as intended. A lot of DMs get too caught up in planning the "story" that they forget the PCs are supposed to foil the villains' plot. Catching a fiend or undead in disguise makes the paladin player feel good about having played a paladin, as well as their judicious use of a limited resource in Divine Sense.

DM dependent, because it’s horribly written, but Nystuls probably solves this issue for the DM, if needed.

[RSP]

Sorry, but that is not what it says. You are interpreting that the action refers to the later sentences but not the first sentence or the rest of the same sentence.

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces."

The detect portion is undeniably attached to the spending of an action. Without spending an action, no detection. You want to give detection for free, which I think is directly contradicted by that sentence. Instead you want to give location as the action.

If the second sentence is not read as an expansion on the first, then it puts them in conflict as you both always detecting and only detecting with an action.

The second sentence is, in fact, an expansion on the ability. The first tells you something about the ability. The second then adds to that, as does the third.

You can feel a presence with the first sentence, you can then pinpoint them with the spending of an action. That’s not a conflict.

The conflict actually comes in the way your reading it: if the Action part is only a smell, then there’s no way to do what it says, because PCs olfactory abilities aren’t that sharp to pinpoint a creature from 60’ out based on smell.

Another conflict: smells and sounds aren’t thwarted by the same things that block sight, yet the Action ability is akin to sight and not the other senses. If someone’s cooking something with a strong aroma, I may well be able to smell it from a few rooms away, though I can’t see the kitchen. If the ability solely makes Undead smell, why does their smell cease if they are around the corner? Why does music stop traveling if it’s behind a desk?

Are you suggesting that the Action spending ability is thwarted by loud noises or harsher odors? Would a Celestial who casts Silence no long be detectable with the use of an Action?

I’d say those types of things could, in fact, work against the abilities in the first sentence. However, the ability to pinpoint with an action would not be thwarted that way.

[Mellack]

The second sentence is, in fact, an expansion on the ability. The first tells you something about the ability. The second then adds to that, as does the third.

Yes, the second sentence describes when the first sentence occurs: when you spend an action.



You can feel a presence with the first sentence, you can then pinpoint them with the spending of an action. That’s not a conflict.


If you feel a presence, you are detecting them. Yet it says you need to spend an action to detect them. I do not understand how you can say such an interpretation is not a conflict.



The conflict actually comes in the way your reading it: if the Action part is only a smell, then there’s no way to do what it says, because PCs olfactory abilities aren’t that sharp to pinpoint a creature from 60’ out based on smell.

Another conflict: smells and sounds aren’t thwarted by the same things that block sight, yet the Action ability is akin to sight and not the other senses. If someone’s cooking something with a strong aroma, I may well be able to smell it from a few rooms away, though I can’t see the kitchen. If the ability solely makes Undead smell, why does their smell cease if they are around the corner? Why does music stop traveling if it’s behind a desk?

Are you suggesting that the Action spending ability is thwarted by loud noises or harsher odors? Would a Celestial who casts Silence no long be detectable with the use of an Action?

I’d say those types of things could, in fact, work against the abilities in the first sentence. However, the ability to pinpoint with an action would not be thwarted that way.

As you said before, the ability does what it says and says what it does. You are trying to add rules about being able to pinpoint by smell or hearing alone. It does not say that. It says exactly what you learn when you use the ability, and what blocks it. It does not state it is by smell or hearing or that anything affecting those sense would change the power in any way. A key thing to note is that it does not say you are actually smelling these things. It says it "registers on your senses like a noxious odor". It does not actually say it is an odor. I believe you are trying to read more into it than it actually says.

[JackPhoenix]

Though the original question was different, this is relevant: "In any piece of writing, context matters. If a rule has multiple sentences, they're meant to be read together. For example, the first sentence of Divine Sense is meant to be read with the rest of the feature's sentences, which explain that first sentence." (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/991012429466251270?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)


The second sentence is, in fact, an expansion on the ability. The first tells you something about the ability. The second then adds to that, as does the third.

You can feel a presence with the first sentence, you can then pinpoint them with the spending of an action. That’s not a conflict.

Yes, the first sentence tells you what the ability does. The second sentence then clarifies what you need to do to make the ability work in the first place.


The conflict actually comes in the way your reading it: if the Action part is only a smell, then there’s no way to do what it says, because PCs olfactory abilities aren’t that sharp to pinpoint a creature from 60’ out based on smell.

It's almost as if it was a supernatural ability of some kind, isn't it?


Another conflict: smells and sounds aren’t thwarted by the same things that block sight, yet the Action ability is akin to sight and not the other senses. If someone’s cooking something with a strong aroma, I may well be able to smell it from a few rooms away, though I can’t see the kitchen. If the ability solely makes Undead smell, why does their smell cease if they are around the corner? Why does music stop traveling if it’s behind a desk?

Are you suggesting that the Action spending ability is thwarted by loud noises or harsher odors? Would a Celestial who casts Silence no long be detectable with the use of an Action?

No, the ability doesn't "make undead smell". Zombies and ghouls and what not are propably stinky enough even without special abilities, and ghosts have no scent at all. Divine Sense gives you the ability to detect and pinpoint their presence, regardless of the normal state of your sensory capabilities.


I’d say those types of things could, in fact, work against the abilities in the first sentence. However, the ability to pinpoint with an action would not be thwarted that way.

You're, of course, free to make whatever rulings or houserules you want.

[RSP]

Yes, the second sentence describes when the first sentence occurs: when you spend an action.


False, for reasons already stated.



If you feel a presence, you are detecting them. Yet it says you need to spend an action to detect them. I do not understand how you can say such an interpretation is not a conflict.

Different levels of detection: for instance, I can detect popcorn by smell, yet I can also detect it by sight. One of those let’s me know where the popcorn is located.




As you said before, the ability does what it says and says what it does. You are trying to add rules about being able to pinpoint by smell or hearing alone. It does not say that. It says exactly what you learn when you use the ability, and what blocks it. It does not state it is by smell or hearing or that anything affecting those sense would change the power in any way. A key thing to note is that it does not say you are actually smelling these things. It says it "registers on your senses like a noxious odor". It does not actually say it is an odor. I believe you are trying to read more into it than it actually says.

There is no difference between a smell and something that registers like a smell.

If you’re assuming the first sentence is a descriptive of how the Action ability works, then you are the one trying to say you pinpoint by hearing or smelling, which is the conflict. The rule clearly states “Until the end of your next turn, you know the location of any Celestial, fiend, or Undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover.” So the Action portion of the ability let’s you know where the creatures are located. I’m not sure why you’re disputing that.

The creature could be invisible and successfully hidden from you, but you can use an Action and then point right to it. Otherwise, if it stays within 60’ of you, you can smell/hear it.

If, as some have suggested, that first sentence is just a descriptive of how the Action works, then that sentence is incompatible with the Action: sensing the presence of something by smelling it’s scent or hearing a musical tone, isn’t the same thing as knowing it’s location.

So if that is what that first sentence is meant to do, it distinctly fails at doing so; which is why I say it’s a separate aspect of the ability. That is, you can smell/hear C,U,F within 60’, and, separately, you can use an Action to locate them and know the specific type.

[RSP]

Yes, the first sentence tells you what the ability does. The second sentence then clarifies what you need to do to make the ability work in the first place.

Those sentences are incompatible though, as smelling something does not let you know the location of something.



It's almost as if it was a supernatural ability of some kind, isn't it?

Indeed, one that lets you detect certain types of creatures, and, when using an action, to locate them. Glad we settled that.



No, the ability doesn't "make undead smell". Zombies and ghouls and what not are propably stinky enough even without special abilities, and ghosts have no scent at all. Divine Sense gives you the ability to detect and pinpoint their presence, regardless of the normal state of your sensory capabilities.

Ah, so you just completely disregard the RAW? That first sentence now means nothing? You don’t, in fact, smell or hear them?

[Mellack]

Different levels of detection: for instance, I can detect popcorn by smell, yet I can also detect it by sight. One of those let’s me know where the popcorn is located.



You are adding in these different levels of detection when the ability says no such thing. It simply says "As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces." Nothing about general or pinpoint detection.

Additionally, the tweet by Crawford makes the design intentions fairly clear.

[RSP]

You are adding in these different levels of detection when the ability says no such thing. It simply says "As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces." Nothing about general or pinpoint detection.

Additionally, the tweet by Crawford makes the design intentions fairly clear.

“...you know the location of any Celestial, fiend, or Undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover.” This is clearly part of the ability, yet you clearly keep disregarding it...

[Mellack]

“...you know the location of any Celestial, fiend, or Undead within 60 feet of you that is not behind total cover.” This is clearly part of the ability, yet you clearly keep disregarding it...

I don't see how I am disregarding that. It all goes together. Everything is part of what you get when using the action. I don't understand why you seem to ignore that you need the action to detect. Then it explains in mechanical detail what the limits are of that detection.

[RSP]

I don't see how I am disregarding that. It all goes together. Everything is part of what you get when using the action. I don't understand why you seem to ignore that you need the action to detect. Then it explains in mechanical detail what the limits are of that detection.

If the first sentence describes how the Action ability works, then, yes, you are using smell and hearing to pinpoint the creatures, because that’s the description given.

But using smell and hearing to pinpoint is not a feature of PCs. Therefore, the first sentence cannot be a description of the Action ability, but is a separate feature of the ability: you smell/hear certain creature types; and, separately, you can use an action to [pinpoint them and know the type].

[Mellack]

Then you have the characters detecting when the power says you need an action to do so.

We seem to be going in circles. I disagree with your reasoning and you with mine. I hope you enjoy your gaming.

[JackPhoenix]

Those sentences are incompatible though, as smelling something does not let you know the location of something.

They are perfectly compatible. You can locate them by smell, because that's what the ability does. That's the entire point of the ability, to allow you to do something you can't otherwise do.


Indeed, one that lets you detect certain types of creatures, and, when using an action, to locate them. Glad we settled that.

Indeed, when you use the action, you're able to detect the presense of certain types of creatures and find their location.


Ah, so you just completely disregard the RAW? That first sentence now means nothing? You don’t, in fact, smell or hear them?

You can. That's what the action is for. You may or may not be able to smell or hear them normally, too, but you don't need special Divine Sense for that. Anyone can smell and hear a rotting, moaning zombie standing in front of them. Only the paladin who uses his action for Divine Sense will be able to detect silent, bodiless ghost gliding in a fog, assuming it's in range and not behind cover.

[MrStabby]

Well the range element only impacts on the action part... so I guess the range on the first sentence could be zero ft or could be the whole plane.

For a practical perspective having the first sentence tell you " there exists at least one creature that is either a fiend or a celestial or an undead on this plane" both satisfies a desire to have the 1st sentence mean what the OP would like it to mean whilst adding the same extra utility to the ability that others are happy to see added.

[Valmark]

Hadn’t noticed this before but the Paladin’s Divine Sense has an always active component:

“The presence of strong evil registers on your Senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears.”

How do you all play this? Does “strong evil” and “powerful good” translate into the creature types mentioned in the Action-required part of the ability? Similarly, do you all just assume the same 60’ range?

I don't treat it as an always on component. The text says that you need to use an action to detect them in the first place, so it can't be always on.

[Tanarii]

Well the range element only impacts on the action part... so I guess the range on the first sentence could be zero ft or could be the whole plane.
Or if you assume it works independently (which I don't), the only reasonable assumption is it works like normal human smell.

In my personal experience, that'd be maybe 5ft in an enclosed space with no moving air, and 0ft outside, unless it smells as bad as something rotting or a fire, or as good as cooking food. Since it's a noxious odor, call it .., maybe 20ft in an enclosed space?

[LtPowers]

Indeed, one that lets you detect certain types of creatures, and, when using an action, to locate them.

The second sentence explicitly says you have to use an action to detect the creatures. I can't believe you're continuing to argue this point.


Powers &8^]

[Segev]

It is ambiguous enough that DMs will rule differently. As with all such situations, ask your DM how he is running it.

[Composer99]

There is no difference between a smell and something that registers like a smell.



You... uh... you do know that "The presence of strong evil registers on your senses like a noxious odor" and "powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears" are two similes, and not literal descriptions of sensory phenomena? Right?

(Emphasis mine in the quoted passages.)


It is ambiguous enough that DMs will rule differently. As with all such situations, ask your DM how he is running it.

Eh, I'm not seeing much in the way of ambiguity. The reason for that is the reference to "such forces" in the second sentence, which is clearly a reference to the "strong evil" and "powerful good" in the first sentence.

(Obviously, if a DM wants Divine Sense to have an "always-on" and an "on-action-use" component, well and good. But the rule itself is, IMO, quite clear.)

[Angelalex242]

I do think divine sense should be improved...as I said before, it's really only useful for confirming suspected demons/undead. I haven't seen it used to find angels very often, mostly because the Paladin implicitly trusts Celestials.

[Greywander]

"This needs a buff" is a different discussion than "this is what RAW says", though. Sure, Divine Sense is kind of eh, though paladins are already pretty strong, so perhaps they don't need a boost.

I can see how someone might interpret Divine Sense as having an always-on component, but IMO that's the result of reading the ability incorrectly. I'm also not seeing much ambiguity here. A few DMs might rule that it has an always-on component, but most DMs probably will not, and it's better to assume that they won't rather than assuming that they will.

If you want a real case of ambiguity, look at the Shield Master feat. As written, the feat could be interpreted to allow the BA shove before taking the Attack action, after the first attack, or after all attacks, and there's no clear answer as to which is RAW, and in fact all three have been considered official at various points in time.

[Anymage]

Completely aside from RAW, it's a trope that many characters but especially supernaturally sensitive ones can get a bad feeling about something when there's supernatural foulness afoot. Crank it up enough and it has nothing to do with paladins; if an archfiend pops up in front of the fighter or rogue, they might feel an essential sense of wrongness and malice emanating from it.

That's more a tool in the DM's hands to communicate that there's something either foul or holy about a general area, though. Always on evildar sounds like that much more hassle to work around, and I'm in the camp that calls it just flavor text.

[Verble]

Completely aside from RAW, it's a trope that many characters but especially supernaturally sensitive ones can get a bad feeling about something when there's supernatural foulness afoot. Crank it up enough and it has nothing to do with paladins; if an archfiend pops up in front of the fighter or rogue, they might feel an essential sense of wrongness and malice emanating from it.

That's more a tool in the DM's hands to communicate that there's something either foul or holy about a general area, though. Always on evildar sounds like that much more hassle to work around, and I'm in the camp that calls it just flavor text.


I like this take. Certain beings or areas or items could radiate an aura of good, evil, or just pure magic that even the unattuned would pick up. This is good description in my book. One problem with the always on radar senses is how do you hide a demon with shape change or magical deception? Is a celestial always trustworthy? How do you hide a hag?

It just breaks too many things and gives too much power. That's part of why in my reading it requires an action to activate it, that you only have a limited number of uses. That is, it's not a passive ability that just solves a problem for you automatically.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like this take. Certain beings or areas or items could radiate an aura of good, evil, or just pure magic that even the unattuned would pick up. This is good description in my book. One problem with the always on radar senses is how do you hide a demon with shape change or magical deception? Is a celestial always trustworthy? How do you hide a hag?

It just breaks too many things and gives too much power. That's part of why in my reading it requires an action to activate it, that you only have a limited number of uses. That is, it's not a passive ability that just solves a problem for you automatically.

I tend to run something like the first thing (limited always-on senses) but only for very strong cases and without any particularity. So a room that's been a demon summoning/blood sacrifice ritual room for decades is going to stink to high heavens to anyone with any divine sensitivity at all (any of paladin, ranger, druid, or cleric), but they're not going to be able to pick out which of the 10 cultists in that room is a disguised demon, at least without a spell or an active use of Divine Sense. Or if they met a demon on the street, they wouldn't know without expending a use.

Same for very strong or very wild magic areas. But more as an atmospheric sense--"the density of magic in this area makes the hairs on your neck stand up" rather than anything specific.

Heck, as a setting thing I have a standing policy that any place with significant, long-term undead infestation will appear and feel sterile to anyone with a modicum of perception. Because in my setting, undead drain the life out of everything around them just by existing. For most it's a very small effect, but pack enough undead into an area for long enough and you'll start to see effects from stunted plants all the way down to completely sterile environments. All that tells you is "there have been lots of undead here for quite a while". Doesn't tell you that any given individual is a lich or vampire though. Or where the undead are.

[RSP]

The second sentence explicitly says you have to use an action to detect the creatures. I can't believe you're continuing to argue this point.


Powers &8^]

Yes, the Action portion of the ability requires an Action. Thank you for that input.

If you don’t like the thread, don’t partake in it, but criticizing those who do, isn’t appropriate.

Again, there’s no way smell in standard rules equals locating something, so the first sentence cannot be an explanation of how the second one works.

[Verble]

So I've already voiced my disagreement with your interpretation of the rules.

But let's say you are right and that there is an always on sensory awareness of celestial, fiends, and undead. What does this mean for the warlock who has an imp pet shape changed into a raven? Does the paladin passively instantly know that the raven is in fact a demon?

Wouldn't this make the shape changing abilities of a night hag useless against a paladin as despite her Magical disguise the paladin would instantly detect that she is a fiend?

[MrStabby]

Wouldn't this make the shape changing abilities of a night hag useless against a paladin as despite her Magical disguise the paladin would instantly detect that she is a fiend?

No, it really depends on the range.

6 inches and it is fine and doesn't cause problems.

6 miles and it is similarly unproblematic.

As long as you don't pick some range in the middle you should be OK.

[Valmark]

Yes, the Action portion of the ability requires an Action. Thank you for that input.

If you don’t like the thread, don’t partake in it, but criticizing those who do, isn’t appropriate.

Again, there’s no way smell in standard rules equals locating something, so the first sentence cannot be an explanation of how the second one works.
With your interpretation the second one makes no sense though.

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces" means that you're not detecting them beforehand.

So I've already voiced my disagreement with your interpretation of the rules.

But let's say you are right and that there is an always on sensory awareness of celestial, fiends, and undead. What does this mean for the warlock who has an imp pet shape changed into a raven? Does the paladin passively instantly know that the raven is in fact a demon?

Wouldn't this make the shape changing abilities of a night hag useless against a paladin as despite her Magical disguise the paladin would instantly detect that she is a fiend?

And that is why you make your familiar a Fey, not a Fiend!

Jokes aside, wouldn't the hag be undetectable because they turn into an humanoid?

[RSP]

With your interpretation the second one makes no sense though.

"As an action, you can open your awareness to detect such forces" means that you're not detecting them beforehand.


The presence of such creatures causes a reaction with your body. You can then spend an Action to detect where they are.

It’s different levels of detecting: like smoke can let you know there’s a fire. Fire produces smoke, which registers on our senses; however, it doesn’t let us “detect” the location of the fire (at least not without other information).

The first sentence lets Paladins smell smoke; the second lets them know where the fire is, using the analogy.

Put another way, the first sentence lets you “detect” strong evil; the second and third let you detect the location of an undead 15’ north and 10’ to the east.



But let's say you are right and that there is an always on sensory awareness of celestial, fiends, and undead. What does this mean for the warlock who has an imp pet shape changed into a raven? Does the paladin passively instantly know that the raven is in fact a demon?

Wouldn't this make the shape changing abilities of a night hag useless against a paladin as despite her Magical disguise the paladin would instantly detect that she is a fiend?

As discussed, changing creature type would make you undetectable (as you would no longer be a fiend in the case of the Night Hag). This is one way to escape notice. Nystuls is another.

The Warlock’s fiendish imp is another, as it would register on the Paladin’s senses and could obscure a different fiend or undead.

[Amnestic]

The Warlock’s fiendish imp is another, as it would register on the Paladin’s senses and could obscure a different fiend or undead.

Could be a celestial imp.

Nothing stopping the warlock from making it as such.

[Tanarii]

Could be a celestial imp.

Nothing stopping the warlock from making it as such.
It's a celestial fiendish imp in that case. Only the beast type is overwritten by Find Familiar.

[Valmark]

It's a celestial fiendish imp in that case. Only the beast type is overwritten by Find Familiar.

No? Nothing stops the additional forms' types from being overwritten.


The presence of such creatures causes a reaction with your body. You can then spend an Action to detect where they are.

It’s different levels of detecting: like smoke can let you know there’s a fire. Fire produces smoke, which registers on our senses; however, it doesn’t let us “detect” the location of the fire (at least not without other information).

The first sentence lets Paladins smell smoke; the second lets them know where the fire is, using the analogy.

Put another way, the first sentence lets you “detect” strong evil; the second and third let you detect the location of an undead 15’ north and 10’ to the east.


It would use another wording. As written it literally says that you need the action to detect them- the distinction you're making to justify it is an house rule, since it never actually separates the wording. You are not detecting them without an action.

[JackPhoenix]

No? Nothing stops the additional forms' types from being overwritten.

Pact of the Chain doesn't say anything about creature type. Find Familiar says: "the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast."

If the creature's type is anything other than beast, it has no interaction with familiar rules.

[Valmark]

Pact of the Chain doesn't say anything about creature type. Find Familiar says: "the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast."

If the creature's type is anything other than beast, it has no interaction with familiar rules.

Depends on the interpretation- given that the base forms can only be beasts it could say beast just because there is no other alternative. It's not a stretch when you consider that it's not actually an imp (or sprite, or whatever) but only has the form of one.

[JackPhoenix]

Depends on the interpretation- given that the base forms can only be beasts it could say beast just because there is no other alternative. It's not a stretch when you consider that it's not actually an imp (or sprite, or whatever) but only has the form of one.

There's nothing to interpret. Saying that it changes other creature types is a houserule. They could've easily written "each creature is also considered X" like with Conjure Animals, or "The creature is X instead of its normal type" if they wanted to account for the possibility of non-beast familiars (a possibility that is present in PHB and MM) also changing their type. Or add that to the Pact of the Chain, if that would be the only way to obtain non-beast base form familiar.

[Segev]

There's nothing to interpret. Saying that it changes other creature types is a houserule. They could've easily written "each creature is also considered X" like with Conjure Animals, or "The creature is X instead of its normal type" if they wanted to account for the possibility of non-beast familiars (a possibility that is present in PHB and MM) also changing their type. Or add that to the Pact of the Chain, if that would be the only way to obtain non-beast base form familiar.

Technically, it REQUIRES a ruling, because "instead of beast" creates a divide-by-zero type logical error if "beast" isn't the type.

[JackPhoenix]

Technically, it REQUIRES a ruling, because "instead of beast" creates a divide-by-zero type logical error if "beast" isn't the type.

Not really. If the type isn't beast, that sentence does nothing without causing any logical errors, just like Charm Person does nothing if you cast it on non-humanoid.

[Valmark]

There's nothing to interpret. Saying that it changes other creature types is a houserule. They could've easily written "each creature is also considered X" like with Conjure Animals, or "The creature is X instead of its normal type" if they wanted to account for the possibility of non-beast familiars (a possibility that is present in PHB and MM) also changing their type. Or add that to the Pact of the Chain, if that would be the only way to obtain non-beast base form familiar.

But they didn't- and the lack of a clear statement doesn't mean it can't be.

[RSP]

Could be a celestial imp.

Nothing stopping the warlock from making it as such.

It could, but then it wouldn’t be an issue.



It would use another wording. As written it literally says that you need the action to detect them- the distinction you're making to justify it is an house rule, since it never actually separates the wording. You are not detecting them without an action.

It literally says it requires an action to know their location. When you smell smoke, does that alone tell you where the fire is?

Smoke alerts you to the presence of fire, but more (the Action part of the ability in this case) is required to learn where the fire is located.

I find it odd that you think it’s wrong that they use “presence” and “detect” in separate sentences without referring to the exact same thing, but find no logical fallacy in knowing where the invisible demon is just by smelling them from 60’ away; unless of course, they hide behind a desk, in which case their odor goes away.

[Valmark]

It literally says it requires an action to know their location. When you smell smoke, does that alone tell you where the fire is?

Smoke alerts you to the presence of fire, but more (the Action part of the ability in this case) is required to learn where the fire is located.

I find it odd that you think it’s wrong that they use “presence” and “detect” in separate sentences without referring to the exact same thing, but find no logical fallacy in knowing where the invisible demon is just by smelling them from 60’ away; unless of course, they hide behind a desk, in which case their odor goes away.

No, it says that it requires an action to detect them. After that it talks about pinpointing their location.

It's odd to not apply real world rules to a made-up magical feature in a fantasy setting? Arbitrarily at that, because you keep comparing it to fire and smoke with no evidence- not all odors are transported like that.

[RSP]

No, it says that it requires an action to detect them. After that it talks about pinpointing their location.

It's odd to not apply real world rules to a made-up magical feature in a fantasy setting? Arbitrarily at that, because you keep comparing it to fire and smoke with no evidence- not all odors are transported like that.

It’s real world vs fantasy. It’s fantasy vs fantasy. Can a PC pinpoint by smell within 60’ of the source normally? Can a human, say, locate an invisible elven Wizard by smell, without using any other feature?

The answer is, of course, no. So we know, if the first sentence were associated with the Action in the second, that further description would be required.

I’m also not sure why you’re separating the pinpointing and claiming it’s not associated with the Action by saying it comes “after that”, when clearly it’s discussing that Action feature.

[Valmark]

It’s real world vs fantasy. It’s fantasy vs fantasy. Can a PC pinpoint by smell within 60’ of the source normally? Can a human, say, locate an invisible elven Wizard by smell, without using any other feature?

The answer is, of course, no. So we know, if the first sentence were associated with the Action in the second, that further description would be required.

I’m also not sure why you’re separating the pinpointing and claiming it’s not associated with the Action by saying it comes “after that”, when clearly it’s discussing that Action feature.

But we do have further description.

I'm saying that the sentence isn't "use an action to pinpoint the position" but is "use an action to detect". In the first case it would be perfectly understandable to think that you can feel their presence by default and only need an action to get the exact position, homewever that's not what it says. It says that you need an action to detect them, period.

[RSP]

But we do have further description.

I'm saying that the sentence isn't "use an action to pinpoint the position" but is "use an action to detect". In the first case it would be perfectly understandable to think that you can feel their presence by default and only need an action to get the exact position, homewever that's not what it says. It says that you need an action to detect them, period.

You aren’t detecting “them” in the first sentence, though. You’re detecting the presence of evil (undead or fiend) or good (celestial).

The Action lets you open yourself up to detect the actual creature (and/or area).

To reuse the metaphor: detecting smoke, is not the same thing as detecting fire. You could smell smoke but not have a fire. You may assume there’s a fire somewhere, just like a Paladin might assume smelling something foul means there’s an Undead near by. In reality, though, they might be smelling the presence of a desecrated site.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You aren’t detecting “them” in the first sentence, though. You’re detecting the presence of evil (undead or fiend) or good (celestial).

The Action lets you open yourself up to detect the actual creature (and/or area).

Under your claim, would you say this line:

You know the type (celestial, fiend, or undead) of any being whose presence you sense, but not its identity (the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich, for instance). Within the same radius, you also detect the presence of any place or object that has been consecrated or desecrated, as with the hallow spell
Is also free, since it works off "presence" rather than the action to know their location?

I'm not buying this argument.

[RSP]

Under your claim, would you say this line:

Is also free, since it works off "presence" rather than the action to know their location?

I'm not buying this argument.

I hadn’t thought about that, but it could.

I’m not sure what you don’t buy about it: that seeing the first sentence as an explanation of how the Action ability works in-game doesn’t work?

Or is it that “presence” and “detect” need to be used as equal meaning for the same things, as Valmark suggests?

Or something else?

[Segev]

Not really. If the type isn't beast, that sentence does nothing without causing any logical errors, just like Charm Person does nothing if you cast it on non-humanoid.

Incorrect. Charm person specifies what happens if you target a humanoid, and doesn't say it does anything if you target anything else. It doesn't say "...instead of 'humanoid'" anywhere in its text, making this a hard analogy to make in the first place.

You can't say, "Ice cream put into this bowl is vanilla instead of chocolate," and have there be any way of knowing what it is if you put mint ice cream into it. Does it transform it to vanilla, because "ice cream put into this bowl is vanilla, instead of [whatever it was before, which is assumed to be] chocolate?" Does it leave it as mint, because "ice cream put into this bowl is [only transformed into] vanilla instead of chocolate [if it was chocolate to begin with]?"

The assumption that it is chocolate to begin with doesn't explicitly put a control on it, so it requires a judgment from the DM as to whether it's intended to change the type regardless of the type the form of the creature would normally have, or if it's merely designed to change the type if the creature would be a beast.

Given a wholistic reading of the effect, and the fact that they take pains to call out that the familiar is a spirit of one of the celestial, fiendish, or fey types, I suspect the driver behind the type being that "instead of beast" is that the type is that, not that it's avoiding being a beast. Thus, if you call a celestial spirit and make it take the form of an imp, it still is a celestial. The idea that it should somehow be both types because the form isn't that of a beast requires a 3e-esq legalism reading, ignoring the context of what the rules are saying and why.

[JackPhoenix]

Incorrect. Charm person specifies what happens if you target a humanoid, and doesn't say it does anything if you target anything else. It doesn't say "...instead of 'humanoid'" anywhere in its text, making this a hard analogy to make in the first place.

No, it's perfectly apt analogy. Find Familiar specifies what happens if the summoned familiar is a beast, and doesn't say it does anything if the familiar is anything else. Just like Charm Person does nothing if you cast it at, say a vampire instead of a humanoid (which doesn't need to be stated).


Given a wholistic reading of the effect, and the fact that they take pains to call out that the familiar is a spirit of one of the celestial, fiendish, or fey types, I suspect the driver behind the type being that "instead of beast" is that the type is that, not that it's avoiding being a beast. Thus, if you call a celestial spirit and make it take the form of an imp, it still is a celestial.

Is an imp a spirit? What count as spirit isn't defined in the rules, so we rely on dictionary definition. And there (Merriam-Webster), beyond other meanings not relevant for the discussion, you can find "a supernatural being or essence". Fiends (imps included) fit that definition. Find Familiar says the familiar is fiend, celestial or a fey instead of a beast. Imp is, in fact, a fiend instead of a beast already. Nothing suggest you can call celestial spirit and get an imp. Pact of the Chain specifies you can either get one of the normal forms, or one of special forms instead, and those special forms ignore certain rules from Find Familiar already (not being on the list, for one).


The idea that it should somehow be both types because the form isn't that of a beast requires a 3e-esq legalism reading, ignoring the context of what the rules are saying and why.

I agree, and I never claimed otherwise. If you cast Find Familiar to get an imp, it will use statistics of an imp, including the creature type (fiend). It won't gain celestial creature type, and it certainly won't have two creature types at once, only bad UA material has that.