Arcane Mark that can't be counterfeited?

[redking]

The Forgotten Realms has Mage Runes (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14158) that mages can use to identify themselves or their property, and copying the runes can lead to 'the curse of Mystra'. Arcane Mark creates a permanent mark (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm#), rune (or sigil, I guess), but it can be counterfeited.

Is there anything out there that can create a mark, rune, or sigil that cannot be counterfeited by others?

[redking]

Really guys? Nothing? We've got damned smart people here. Will someone step up?

[Raz Dazzle]

Dragoneye Rune is basically this, an Arcane Mark that’s unique time the caster.

[Crake]

I mean, arcane mark is literally described as being a personal rune or mark. Are you sure it can be counterfeited?

[Troacctid]

Why do you want an arcane mark that can't be counterfeited?

[Zanos]

I mean, arcane mark is literally described as being a personal rune or mark. Are you sure it can be counterfeited?
I agree, I was always under the impression a personal rune was unique for every caster.


Why do you want an arcane mark that can't be counterfeited?
Same reason you would want prevent anything from being counterfeited, I would imagine. It's a stamp of authenticity. You could mark your possessions, your servants, your documents, your letters, your coinage...

[Khedrac]

Not a D&D answer, but this question made me think of EE Doc Smith's Lensman novels.

One of the reasons that the "Galactic Patrol" (the "good-guy police") of the setting adopted the "lens" when it was offered to them was they had hit the problem that there was nothing that physical science could devise and make that it could not also duplicate so their opponents could always eventually create fake IDs.
The "lens" that was offered them as not the product of physical science and thus was proof against this issue (and it was eventually duplicated by their opponents, but the psychology behind it made that much less of a problem).

The problem with arcane mark is that it is defined as being unique to the caster, but that does not mean that it cannot be duplicated by a different spell (which may take some spell research) just that the spell arcane mark won't produce the same mark for anyone else.

Given how clever and tortuous people get with ice assassain and aleax shenannigans I think the same will apply to a magical mark - someone will always be able to work out how to counterfeit it.

[Crake]

Not a D&D answer, but this question made me think of EE Doc Smith's Lensman novels.

One of the reasons that the "Galactic Patrol" (the "good-guy police") of the setting adopted the "lens" when it was offered to them was they had hit the problem that there was nothing that physical science could devise and make that it could not also duplicate so their opponents could always eventually create fake IDs.
The "lens" that was offered them as not the product of physical science and thus was proof against this issue (and it was eventually duplicated by their opponents, but the psychology behind it made that much less of a problem).

The problem with arcane mark is that it is defined as being unique to the caster, but that does not mean that it cannot be duplicated by a different spell (which may take some spell research) just that the spell arcane mark won't produce the same mark for anyone else.

Given how clever and tortuous people get with ice assassain and aleax shenannigans I think the same will apply to a magical mark - someone will always be able to work out how to counterfeit it.

Right, but there's a difference between being able to counterfeit it with a cantrip, vs counterfeiting it with a 9th level spell.

Plus, arguably, even duplicates of the caster in question would have different arcane marks, even if only subtly so, because you could not, for example, use an ice assassin's arcane mark for your own instant summons, thus it is demonstrably clear that, while it may visually look similar, or even exactly the same, said arcane mark is not a duplicate... you just need magic to identify the difference. Using a scrying spell, with the target of the scrying spell being "The inscriber of this arcane mark" could show you the caster, you could use a divination spell that allows you to ask a question, like commune or contact other plane, though said entities may not know, care, or be inclined to lie, or finally, if in the pursuit of proving that it is indeed your mark, you can cast the aforementioned instant summons spell.

[redking]

Why do you want an arcane mark that can't be counterfeited?


I agree, I was always under the impression a personal rune was unique for every caster.


Same reason you would want prevent anything from being counterfeited, I would imagine. It's a stamp of authenticity. You could mark your possessions, your servants, your documents, your letters, your coinage...

Yes - as a cryptographic guarantee of authenticity.

There is nothing in the arcane mark spell that suggests that the personal rune or mark cannot be the same as that belonging to someone else, or that an individual could not have many such personal runes or marks.

Lets say that a mage's guild issues promissory notes which guarantee a spell cast (from level 1 to 9, depending on the value of the promissory note) which is explicitly meant to be a traded commodity. In a situation like that, the guild would want to make sure that the promissory note is secure. Its not enough that the mage's guild can ascertain the authenticity of the promissory note, buyers of the promissory notes being traded elsewhere must have confidence that it is real. For that reason, it must be counterfeit proof or very near so.

[Crake]

Yes - as a cryptographic guarantee of authenticity.

There is nothing in the arcane mark spell that suggests that the personal rune or mark cannot be the same as that belonging to someone else, or that an individual could not have many such personal runes or marks.

Lets say that a mage's guild issues promissory notes which guarantee a spell cast (from level 1 to 9, depending on the value of the promissory note) which is explicitly meant to be a traded commodity. In a situation like that, the guild would want to make sure that the promissory note is secure. Its not enough that the mage's guild can ascertain the authenticity of the promissory note, buyers of the promissory notes being traded elsewhere must have confidence that it is real. For that reason, it must be counterfeit proof or very near so.

Counterfeit currency is traded every day across the world. What gives people the confidence to use such currency isn't that they can verify it's authenticity themselves, but rather that there is a governing body that can do so, and punish those who they catch counterfeiting their currency. So in this case, the confidence is in the governing body, not in the currency itself.

[redking]

Counterfeit currency is traded every day across the world. What gives people the confidence to use such currency isn't that they can verify it's authenticity themselves, but rather that there is a governing body that can do so, and punish those who they catch counterfeiting their currency. So in this case, the confidence is in the governing body, not in the currency itself.

The mage's guild is not a government, and in such a situation it is likely that mage's guild promissory notes would not take off. In the case of governments, they do their best to ensure that it is difficult, if not impossible, to counterfeit. Right now we have trustless cryptographic currencies like bitcoin. Magic should be able to duplicate this cryptographic technology in the form of a unique rune or mark.

[Lapak]

Feels like the problem is not whether it can be counterfeited, but whether an observer can tell. There's nothing to say that Arcane Mark isn't unique to the soul or identity of the magic-user, but whether the one who sees it is going to be able to tell your mark from someone else's is another issue. Heck, even in the Mystra-overseen setting there are examples of wizards having similar enough sigils that people mistake one for the other when they are explicitly different.

I'd allow them to be counterfeited, but it would be falsifiable. Someone trying to duplicate a mark with an illusion spell would have to make a Forgery check to escape detection by mundane observation, and magic that lets you determine the school of auras (Detect Magic with concentration and a check, Arcane Sight, etc.) would auto-detect the deception since you're looking right at the aura at that point and would see that it's an Illusion spell.

[Crake]

The mage's guild is not a government, and in such a situation it is likely that mage's guild promissory notes would not take off. In the case of governments, they do their best to ensure that it is difficult, if not impossible, to counterfeit. Right now we have trustless cryptographic currencies like bitcoin. Magic should be able to duplicate this cryptographic technology in the form of a unique rune or mark.

Sorry, replace "governing body" with "authoritative body". Ideally, a mages guild could investigate and bring to justice a counterfeiting operation to instill enough confidence in users

[redking]

deally, a mages guild could investigate and bring to justice a counterfeiting operation to instill enough confidence in users

That raises the costs of doing business to extreme levels. Why wouldn't the mages just use magic to ensure the authenticity of their product? Not sure where you are going with this.

[Crake]

That raises the costs of doing business to extreme levels. Why wouldn't the mages just use magic to ensure the authenticity of their product? Not sure where you are going with this.

Replace mages with scientists, replace magic with technology, and you have a real-world analogue.

Anything one person can do, another person can eventually reverse engineer to be practically identical to a casual observer. When said counterfeiting comes into play, it's on the authoritative body to handle the response. Unless it's a large-scale operation, knowing that you could have an entire mage's guild bearing down upon you if you counterfeit their currency would be a deterrent enough for most people.

As an aside, doing regular tests of the currency flowing through the economy would be relatively simple for a mage's guild, there are a whole slew of divinations that an organization could perform that an average shop salesman couldn't. If said mages guild followed a commerce deity, they could likely perform regular tests by simply communing and asking "Is there currently any counterfeit currency of our exchange?" and then use subsequent questions to narrow down where said counterfeiting is originating from. I don't know why you think just implementing some basic countermeasures at the authoritative body level would suddenly raise the cost to extreme levels.

I would in fact posit the reverse. Supplying every shop owner in every city with a method of verifying your currency would raise costs to the extreme. Easier that you spend resources to handle a counterfeiting operation when it arises, rather than spend resources to enable every user of your currency to be able to verify it for themselves.

[Jack_Simth]

Can't make it impossible, but you can make it not generally worthwhile.

1) Get a huge number of coins marked appropriately with your guild's logo and the denomination on one side (material is mostly not relevant - they can be stone if you want). Do magically shape them, though.
2) On the "blank" side, place a visible arcane mark from a specific person.
3) On the "written" side, plane an invisible arcane mark from a different specific person.
4) Use Lesser Planar Binding on a Lantern Archon, and have it use it's at-will Continual Flame on all of them (nonhazardous task, used for rather lawful purposes - should be right up it's alley).

Yes, it is possible to forge these. There are rules for forging an arcane mark (I forget exactly where they're found, though - I think it was a setting-specific book), and Continual Flame is a common spell.

However:
1) A Lawful subtype creature is unlikely to be very cooperative with an attempt at forgery. One might say it goes directly against their nature. Which means the forger probably needs to be casting Continual Flame Directly. Which usually means dealing with that expensive component.
2) It requires magic to forge them, and even a commoner-1 can verify that magic was used to make them (Heatless torchlight).
3) A merchant merely needs Detect Magic to confirm the second mark, and Spellcraft to ID that they were shaped by magic.

Meanwhile, they can be forged, so the guild takes precautions.
1) Periodically use a source of Commune with a deity of commerce to ID if forgeries are being made, and to do divine bisection to locate where they're coming from.
2) Shut them down.
3) Periodically sweep for forgeries in the guild coffers, and despose of those. These coins will be coming back (it's how they're redeemed for services, after all), so they'll end up back at guild HQ, real or not.

Note that a small number of forgeries in circulation isn't actually a problem. It causes some devaluation of the currency, but if you mostly accept the good forgeries (and regularly work to take down any forgery operations), public trust in the currency remains strong, and so the currency remains useful for the job.

[aglondier]

And honestly, anyone good enough to forge a magecrafted currency should be hired by the mages to craft their currency...

[Another Handle]

Didn't Eberron's imply that the Arcane Mark made by House Sivis heir's was unfalsifiable? At least by anyone without the mark. Of course, that just leads to erasing the rest of the document and forging a new one. Like bleaching a single to forge a Franklin.