The High Roller - How to get Domains on a Favoured Soul?

[greygriffin]

I have been invited to a short 3.5 Eberron game starting at Level 4. I am experienced with 5e but am at a bit of a loss with what can be achieved in 3.5. My character concept is a bon vivant and high-stakes gambler, a halfling who works as a go-between from House Ghallanda and the Sharn underworld, who at game start has had to skip town in a hurry (so joined up with an the first adventuring band he could find). I want to play as a divine spellcaster, a character whose cleverness with coin and cards has given him a literal blessing in life. Mechanically I will play as a buffer/debuffer, unless I can also fit in halfling thrown weapons as a secondary. I'll emphasise WIS, CHA and DEX.

I want to represent this with the Luck and Commerce domains, which fit the character beautifully. However, Favoured Souls don't get domains, which I'm stuck on. Clerics are a stronger class, but their whole concept hangs off being an active, devoted worshipper of a deity, which this character isn't at all, he just reckons that Olladra and Kol Korran seem to be appreciative of his work. The GM isn't too impressed at the idea of a cleric character who doesn't actively engage in their faith.

I've had a look at available PrCs - Contemplative requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (Religion); Sovereign Speaker requires 8 ranks K(R) and access to a domain already. High Roller, really, shouldn't have any formal study in K(R), and neither of these will be qualified for in the timescale of the game. In addition, Complete Divine p20 shows that if you can manage to get a domain on a FvS, the domain spells only add to the available at level-up list, not the character's known list. This seems really unhelpful, it's a lot of work to qualify and you still don't get any bonus spells.

The vast majority of the FvS builds I see online are frontliner self-buffing melees, which suggests that FvS just... don't make good casters.

Alternatively, I could look at this from the other direction; are there any feats or PrCs that mechanically imply that a Cleric is blessed or chosen, as opposed to praying for power?

[Maat Mons]

It's a little awkward for Favored Souls to use spells that allow saving throws. For max spell level and spells per day, a Favored Soul uses Charisma. If you're a self-buffer, that's all you care about. If you're going to debuff, you also care about save DC, which for Favored Souls is based on Wisdom. The more stats you have to care about, the thinner you spread your resources trying to keep them all high.

Dragonlance has a base class that's like Favored Soul, except it's 100% Wisdom-based, you get one domain, and members of the class are actually not permitted to worship any deity. Probably doesn't suit your concept though. It would be much less "Somebody up there must like me." and more "I make my own luck."

Clerics don't actually have to worship a deity at all. But you do have to be pretty devoted. Even if that devotion is to a concept or ideal. You could maybe try something with Heretic of the Faith or Servant of the Fallen if you want a very unusual Cleric.

I guess you could play a Sorcerer, and use the magic-in-the-blood fluff to imply that you're partially-descended from a Good outsider. There's an ACF for Sorcerer that gives you a domain, complete with it's granted power. But it doesn't become available until 5th level, you lose one spell known of each level, and you can only cast each domain spell 1/day.

[Biggus]

There's the spontaneous Cleric from Unearthed Arcana, found here: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

Might be worth seeing if your DM will accept that?

[Troacctid]

You could ask if you could use a domain icon (Faiths of Eberron).

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Eberron has the best possible domain-giving PrC, Sovereign Speaker. Unfortunately it requires Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, so you can't enter it at level 4.

You could use Magical Training + Arcane Disciple + Southern Magician to get access to domain spells, but IIRC Southern Magician isn't from Eberron so you'll have to ask your GM to okay it.

[liquidformat]

Eberron has the best possible domain-giving PrC, Sovereign Speaker. Unfortunately it requires Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, so you can't enter it at level 4.

You could use Magical Training + Arcane Disciple + Southern Magician to get access to domain spells, but IIRC Southern Magician isn't from Eberron so you'll have to ask your GM to okay it.

You are only one feat away from having Knowledge (religion). Education from eberron campaign setting, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, Apprentice from DMGII, ect. its not that big of a bar to get over except for maybe from the roleplaying point of view. The main issue with Sovereign Speaker is it requires a domain to enter, Church Inquisitor would be a great choice to enter though afb and I don't remember if Favored Soul has access to Zone of Truth...

[hamishspence]

It's a 2nd level cleric spell as well as a 2nd level paladin spell. That means a Favoured Soul can take it.


However, Favoured Souls don't get domains, which I'm stuck on. Clerics are a stronger class, but their whole concept hangs off being an active, devoted worshipper of a deity, which this character isn't at all, he just reckons that Olladra and Kol Korran seem to be appreciative of his work. The GM isn't too impressed at the idea of a cleric character who doesn't actively engage in their faith.

Favoured souls, according to Miniatures Handbook and Complete Divine, must worship a deity, not an ideal or cause or a concept.

Player's Guide to Eberron says that unlike clerics, which often worship pantheons as a whole, favoured souls devote themselves to specific deities.

Combined with "a deity" in the above MH and CD books, and there's a strong implication that you must choose one, and only one.


Clerics don't actually have to worship a deity at all. But you do have to be pretty devoted. Even if that devotion is to a concept or ideal.

Yup. The intermediate step between "devoted enough to be a cleric/paladin/favored soul" and "only devoted enough to be a lay worshipper" is the Adept NPC class.

Regarding "being a cleric of an impersonal force, or a philosophy" Deities & Demigods has this to day:


"Generally the power of a philosophy comes from the belief that mortals invest in it. A philosophy that only one person believes in is not strong enough to bestow magical power on that person. A force, on the other hand, can have power apart from the belief in it or even apart from the existence of mortals."

[gijoemike]

There is a alternative version of BARD from Unearthed arcane called Divine Bard. Instead of being arcane they are blessed by the deities and live a free life. Charismatic caster that uses his/her WISDOM to learn spells. But as a divine caster you could eventually qualify for Divine Oracle. Skill focus feat in knowledge with lots of knowledge religion and 2 divination spells known. If some gamblers found out you used magic to alter fate they should as heck would run you out of town.

Divine Oracle grants you the oracle domain and is all about knowing the next steps future. Those aren't the domains you requested.

Now Bards in general are all about luck and buffing allies.

In all honestly the character concept sounds like a straight up bard instead of favored soul. If you go straight halfing bard you would focus on just dex and cha. There are a lot of "lucky" spells that bards have access to. But you asked Domains on FS.

[hamishspence]

To be fair, some characters do become clerics "unwittingly", merely through worship. That guy in the "For Hate's Sake" adventure in Heroes of Horror, for example.

[smasher0404]

You are only one feat away from having Knowledge (religion). Education from eberron campaign setting, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, Apprentice from DMGII, ect. its not that big of a bar to get over except for maybe from the roleplaying point of view. The main issue with Sovereign Speaker is it requires a domain to enter, Church Inquisitor would be a great choice to enter though afb and I don't remember if Favored Soul has access to Zone of Truth...

If the DM allows the old web content for 3.5, Favored Souls don't even need to spend a feat to get Knowledge(religion) as a class skill, because Dead Levels II (http://web.archive.org/web/20170624155331/https://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) grants them the skill at first level for free (or Knowledge(The Planes)).

[Fizban]

There are PrCs to add domains to just any class, but as PrCs they're targeted at higher levels. At 4th, there is no solution. You could try checking Initiate feats to see if they have something similar, but those are even moreso based on specific deities.


The GM isn't too impressed at the idea of a cleric character who doesn't actively engage in their faith.
Then it might be time for them to learn to separate fluff from crunch (or not, see below). If you don't actually care about the mechanics of Favored Soul (primarily spontaneous casting), there is no reason for you to be forced to play one.

If you do specifically want Favored Soul because prepared casting also doesn't fit with your character concept, then the easiest pre-existing choice would be Spontaneous Cleric. Which is just Cleric using the Sorcerer's spell's known table, plus domains and cure or inflict. The Favored Soul spells known table has more spells than Sorcerer in what must be an attempt to account for the problem of trying to fill the Cleric role when the Cleric is expected to have a huge number of back-pocket status removal and prevention spells. Sorcerer+two domains+cure or inflitc with the UA Spontaneous Cleric is comparable (actually more numerous at 4 on new level gains), except unlike the Favored Soul, you've pre-picked most of your spells known based on fluff rather than actually doing your job.

The main problem, is that you've hung the concept off of wanting these domains. Domains are inherently tied to deities- you're allowed to create non-religious clerics in the default game because reasons, but when a domain is written for a specific deity from a setting that you're playing in, you've pretty well tied yourself to that deity. And the domain powers are a luck reroll, and a huge bonus to profession checks for income.

If your character is only so good at gambling for income because of their blessing, how did they earn that blessing by being good at gambling?

Mechanically I will play as a buffer/debuffer. . . Clerics are a stronger class, but their whole concept hangs off being an active, devoted worshipper of a deity, which this character isn't at all, he just reckons that Olladra and Kol Korran seem to be appreciative of his work.
Though this phrasing is also mighty circumspect. Someone who's main role in combat is standing around, saying prayers that make their allies better at combat or their enemies worse at combat, is not someone where their deity "just happens to appreciate their work" while they "don't actively worship."

There's also a question of just what buffs/debuffs you intend to use. 'Cause that doesn't really work so well at 4th either. The popular borked buffs are usually all 4th level and higher, with those of lower level actually being expected survival buffs like Resist Energy and whatnot. I'm sure there are enough you can force a character, but there's a reason for all those self-buffing builds- weirdly overpowered self-buff are a lot of what is available at low-levels.

The vast majority of the FvS builds I see online are frontliner self-buffing melees, which suggests that FvS just... don't make good casters.
That is correct. The game, as in the wide array of monsters and potential traps or challenges, flat-out expects the Cleric to have the entire PHB list available tomorrow. They are the safety that allows the game to have such a huge variety of dangerously crippling effects, powerful attacks, and specialized defenses, all available with little or no warning- rather than something like 5e where the worst you ever get is like a 1 round penalty and some damage. There are a good six or so spells at every spell level (at least) that can be deemed as expected, as soon as you hit every odd level: a quick glance at the available spontaneous caster spells known tables instantly shows that they could barely handle most of them if the took nothing else, and they're getting half or more of them several levels behind when the Cleric was supposed to have them.

Favored Souls and Spontaneous Clerics cannot fill the Cleric role unless the DM specifically makes sure that everything lines up exactly with what spells they've taken, or takes the "Cleric" part out by handing the party items and NPCs to handle everything. In which case, the party effectively has an extra member, while the spontaneous divine caster is doing whatever. (They can also forgo most status effects and interesting monsters, using only basic bruisers and PC-classed NPCs, but this also wrecks the game balance- better to stick with 5e)

Now, if your character was the trapfinder, a Rogue or whatever with some Luck feats and maybe a Cleric 1 dip because Domains and basic 1st level "blessings," that would work out just fine on all counts. Fills a standard role, and has domains and deific sponsorship while literally not being a "full-time" cleric. Leveraging an innate reroll ability is just the sort of thing to elevate someone above the rest of their peers and gain the "notice" of their sponsor, then they get the level of cleric with the luck reroll and can merge the two.

The problem with this plan, is that since the Luck feats were printed later in 3.5, they made them all focused on combat with no craft or profession options- but while trying to keep them limited, made the any-skill reroll a 6th level required feat. So unless you're willing to count cheating (Lucky Fingers for Slight of Hand), "going first" (Lucky Start, initiative), or Victor's Luck (crit confirmation), there's no low-level luck feats to start the character. But writing a "Business Sense" or "High Roller" low-level luck feat is easy enough.

Well, and the fact that it's not a buffer/debuffer. But at this level Cleric hardly is either, and a pure buffer/debuffer really doesn't fit with someone who does not consciously engage with the class and mechanics behind their main combat actions.

[Cruiser1]

Eberron has the best possible domain-giving PrC, Sovereign Speaker. Unfortunately it requires Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, so you can't enter it at level 4.
Hmm, can you wait one level? If you spend a feat on Primary Contact (City), your max rank of Knowledge (Religion) actually becomes one higher. That allows you to have 8 ranks as a 4th level character, so you could enter Sovereign Speaker at level 5. (And once you're level 6, retrain Primary Contact to something more useful.) :smalltongue:

[Ramza00]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?561974-Evangelist-variant-cleric-from-Dragon

If your DM would allow it, the Evangelist from Dragon 311 is what you are wanting. It is a wis based spontaneous cleric that gets its new spells known on levels 4/6/8 etc instead of a cleric's 3/5/7 etc. Loses Turn Undead, gains 2 domains at level 1, and additional domains at level 5, 10, 15, 20 where these spells are added to your spells known but you also get the domain abilities. d8 hit points, 2+ skills, good fort and will, bad reflex. No formal "church" training, instead the god reveals itself to the Evangelist and the Evangelist now spread's the god's message. [ like the cultural hero Joan the Arc ]

[greygriffin]

Thanks everyone. A lot of well considered responses.

Conceptual feedback


It's a 2nd level cleric spell as well as a 2nd level paladin spell. That means a Favoured Soul can take it.

Favoured souls, according to Miniatures Handbook and Complete Divine, must worship a deity, not an ideal or cause or a concept.

Player's Guide to Eberron says that unlike clerics, which often worship pantheons as a whole, favoured souls devote themselves to specific deities.

Combined with "a deity" in the above MH and CD books, and there's a strong implication that you must choose one, and only one.

Yup. The intermediate step between "devoted enough to be a cleric/paladin/favored soul" and "only devoted enough to be a lay worshipper" is the Adept NPC class.

Regarding "being a cleric of an impersonal force, or a philosophy" Deities & Demigods has this to day:


"Generally the power of a philosophy comes from the belief that mortals invest in it. A philosophy that only one person believes in is not strong enough to bestow magical power on that person. A force, on the other hand, can have power apart from the belief in it or even apart from the existence of mortals."


There is a alternative version of BARD from Unearthed arcane called Divine Bard. Instead of being arcane they are blessed by the deities and live a free life. Charismatic caster that uses his/her WISDOM to learn spells. But as a divine caster you could eventually qualify for Divine Oracle. Skill focus feat in knowledge with lots of knowledge religion and 2 divination spells known. If some gamblers found out you used magic to alter fate they should as heck would run you out of town.

Divine Oracle grants you the oracle domain and is all about knowing the next steps future. Those aren't the domains you requested.

Now Bards in general are all about luck and buffing allies.

In all honestly the character concept sounds like a straight up bard instead of favored soul. If you go straight halfing bard you would focus on just dex and cha. There are a lot of "lucky" spells that bards have access to. But you asked Domains on FS.


If you do specifically want Favored Soul because prepared casting also doesn't fit with your character concept, then the easiest pre-existing choice would be Spontaneous Cleric. Which is just Cleric using the Sorcerer's spell's known table, plus domains and cure or inflict. The Favored Soul spells known table has more spells than Sorcerer in what must be an attempt to account for the problem of trying to fill the Cleric role when the Cleric is expected to have a huge number of back-pocket status removal and prevention spells. Sorcerer+two domains+cure or inflitc with the UA Spontaneous Cleric is comparable (actually more numerous at 4 on new level gains), except unlike the Favored Soul, you've pre-picked most of your spells known based on fluff rather than actually doing your job.

The main problem, is that you've hung the concept off of wanting these domains. Domains are inherently tied to deities- you're allowed to create non-religious clerics in the default game because reasons, but when a domain is written for a specific deity from a setting that you're playing in, you've pretty well tied yourself to that deity. And the domain powers are a luck reroll, and a huge bonus to profession checks for income.

If your character is only so good at gambling for income because of their blessing, how did they earn that blessing by being good at gambling?

Though this phrasing is also mighty circumspect. Someone who's main role in combat is standing around, saying prayers that make their allies better at combat or their enemies worse at combat, is not someone where their deity "just happens to appreciate their work" while they "don't actively worship."

So looking at all these points together, it's pretty clear that the character concept is not really effectively executed by Cleric or Favoured Soul. I wanted that intuitive feel of someone who's just that good, but that does not a functional or compelling adventurer and useful party member make, as you point out Fizban, the fiction of trying to fit the personality to how they would actually play in game is just full of logical loopholes, and as Hamish says isn't aligned with how Favoured Souls' relationship with their deity should work (which, reading the description in CD, should be almost on a personal level from the perspective of the FvS). They probably are, in fact, a Bard or Rogue.

If someone else wants to play a cleric I could retool the character into Rogue with some toys, otherwise I will have to rework the character concept, such as saying the gambling halls is where he secretly spends his nights but in the day he's a well-regarded Sovereign Host cleric, and then I might as well just be an actual cleric.

Mechanical feedback


You are only one feat away from having Knowledge (religion). Education from eberron campaign setting, Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, Apprentice from DMGII, ect. its not that big of a bar to get over except for maybe from the roleplaying point of view. The main issue with Sovereign Speaker is it requires a domain to enter, Church Inquisitor would be a great choice to enter though afb and I don't remember if Favored Soul has access to Zone of Truth...


If the DM allows the old web content for 3.5, Favored Souls don't even need to spend a feat to get Knowledge(religion) as a class skill, because Dead Levels II grants them the skill at first level for free (or Knowledge(The Planes)).


Eberron has the best possible domain-giving PrC, Sovereign Speaker. Unfortunately it requires Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, so you can't enter it at level 4.

You could use Magical Training + Arcane Disciple + Southern Magician to get access to domain spells, but IIRC Southern Magician isn't from Eberron so you'll have to ask your GM to okay it.


Hmm, can you wait one level? If you spend a feat on Primary Contact (City), your max rank of Knowledge (Religion) actually becomes one higher. That allows you to have 8 ranks as a 4th level character, so you could enter Sovereign Speaker at level 5. (And once you're level 6, retrain Primary Contact to something more useful.) :smalltongue:

So it looks like there's essentially three approaches:
-obtain Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks by using various L1 feats to make it a class skill (or use the Dead Levels web extra, which I think is a no-go), and enter Sovereign Speaker at 5
-find a different way to add to list or x/day cast domain spells
-be an Unearthed Arcana Spontaneous Caster cleric.

All are interesting and useful ways of approaching the question (I particularly like the domain icon item that was pointed out but this character can't afford one, WBL @ 4 is 5400 and a domain icon is 10000).

In summary. Need to go away and have a think about what this character actually does for the party and if it is cohesive with the fiction. Rewrite the character if needed. Then... probably make an Unearthed Arcana Spontaneous Cleric if spontaneous casting is still viable.




If your DM would allow it, the Evangelist from Dragon 311 is what you are wanting. It is a wis based spontaneous cleric that gets its new spells known on levels 4/6/8 etc instead of a cleric's 3/5/7 etc. Loses Turn Undead, gains 2 domains at level 1, and additional domains at level 5, 10, 15, 20 where these spells are added to your spells known but you also get the domain abilities. d8 hit points, 2+ skills, good fort and will, bad reflex. No formal "church" training, instead the god reveals itself to the Evangelist and the Evangelist now spread's the god's message. [ like the cultural hero Joan the Arc ]

This is a nifty find but Dragon Mag won't be in bounds (the in-bounds material can be summed up as 'All WOTC hardbacks published for 3.5 in the generic setting or for the specific campaign setting; 3.0 material, BOED and BOVD are OOB.') A cool find though.

[Troacctid]

such as saying the gambling halls is where he secretly spends his nights but in the day he's a well-regarded Sovereign Host cleric, and then I might as well just be an actual cleric.
Honestly, if it were me, this is what I would do. It's a pretty easy story adjustment to make.