Melee builds that optimize something other than damage?

[Rfkannen]

I am the min maxer of my group. When I make a character, I like to have them be effective at their thing; I just find that a lot more fun. I always make a character first and then build them, but 5e is simple enough to min-max basically any character concept.

My problem is that often characters I make wind up being damage dealers, which can be weird. Every character in 5e is supposed to deal damage, so having one pc that does twice the damage of another can feel not great.

For my next character, I want to make a character who does not focus on damage but instead on something else. But I am not sure what else I could build to do.

Healing I also find frustrating. My group often goes several combats in a row without someone dropping, so being "the healer" in a party that doesn't need healing can be very dull.

My first thought was a bard with hypnotic patterns and stuff like that, but I also have realized I like playing front line characters. Sitting in the back hiding behind a tree isn't really my idea of exciting combat.


Any ideas for what types of characters might work? What would be some fun builds? What could I optimize for?

[Galithar]

Grappling is a fun frontline optimization point. Also just being a support build.

Grappler -Get expertise Athletics, dueling (or a race like Simic Hybrid with separate grappling appendages if allowed) and preferably a way to enlarge yourself.

Support - Armorer Artificer in Guardian mode with support spells. Punch bad guys and make it harder for them to hit your allies while concentrating on a buff/control spell.

Ancestral Guardian/Ancients Paladin - Slightly MAD, but if you can pull it off it gets goof at high levels. Barbarian for forcing disadvantage to attack others, rage to further your own survivability, Auras to support others and boost your own survivability. Instead of focusing on damage focus on getting enemies to focus you. If you combine this with the grapple build you can always have something to do that gives your team an upper hand without dealing more damage. (You only really NEED Str, but your Aura will rely on CHA, every front line needs CON, and you need at least 14 DEX for maximum medium armor AC) I would only level into Barbarian to get the subclass, maybe the ASI and then stop. It's just for grabbing attention while raging and granting advantage on grapples if you go that route.


Avoid the damage feats obviously. If you take GWM you're gonna want to use it.

[stoutstien]

Optimize helping. Make sure everyone has advantage and the enemies have disadvantage constantly.
Once you have that you can mix in CC and area denial for taste.

[Verble]

Just read about an interesting melee control build of barbarian/rogue in the linked thread.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626784-Reckless-Rogue&p=24925613


This is by far my favourite multiclass to play, but the focus here is slightly off. Leveraging Reckless Attack to get Sneak Attacks is a nice side effect of the multiclass, but it's shouldn't be the focus; it's not a damage build (even though it's competetive without having to invest anything further in it), it's a melee control build. Here's why;

1) Expertise (Athletics) + Rage Advantage on Strength checks makes you a singularly effective grappler. For this, you want to have a free hand, so a focused TWF build is out. As a One-hander build, you have the flexibility to use an off-hand weapon (with the bonus damage from Rage to tackle weak, low-HP mooks OR for the increase in accuracy to land Sneak Attack) if need be, or a Shield (for AC) or as mentioned, you can Grapple. Stay flexible; This is the Way. It's not like you have any in-built class features that particularly enhance any one style, so you might as well take advantage of whichever one suits the situation.

2) Rage Resistance to damage, plus Uncanny Dodge and Evasion puts you in a position where incoming damage can be shrugged off. This means AC isn't so much of an issue and the foe you're grappling attacking you is the game plan; better they attack your efficient HP than your squishy friends. It also lets your friendlies drop AoE on your position...which should be surrounded by as many enemies as possible, to increase your chances of A) being attacked and B) getting Opportunity Attacks.

3) Sentinel, baby. It's the only Feat you should be thinking about, or at least the first one. The additional protection is affords your companions, encouraging foes to attack you, by having punishing OA's is gold standard stuff, but more importantly it locks down foes trying to escape you. The second Feat you should be considering is Mobile, to get you where you need to be (in the middle of the pack) as quickly and efficiently as possible (it also lets friendlies drop area control effects that impose difficult terrain on your position without inconveniencing you).

4) Whip it. Seriously. Use a Whip. It's Finesse for Sneak Attack, One handed for grappling and more importantly has Reach, letting you dictate who you attack, not your opponents. The difference in damage between a Whip and a Rapier is...wait for it...a whole, entire 2pts on average. The worst thing about a whip is having to roll d4's more often than you're probably used to, but I advise investing in a 12-sided one for the pleasure of not having to roll one of those spikey little devils...sorry, got distracted there...anyways, yeah. Rage damage starts off compensating that 2 point difference from the moment you take your first Barbarian level and when you add Sneak Attack, you're already at about the same damage output as your vanilla, everyday Greatsword. This is at level 2 (before GWM or PAM commonly come into play and before Extra Attack); (1d4+1d6+Str+2) = 8+Str vs. (2d6+Str+2) = 9+Str. As I said, though, this isn't a damage build; you will fall behind other builds that are more focused and better suited to it (bearing in mind that as a multiclass build, you're delaying features like Extra Attack; falling behind in DPR is inevitable), but you won't fall too far behind that you'll really notice it and you'll be angling for gnarly Sneak Attack OA's which will boost your comparative DPR and every now and then you'll get a crit and boost it further (Sneak Attack crits are super satisfying). If you really want that extra 2 damage, you can also carry a Rapier as well; it's not like either is going to put you over your carry capacity. IMO, though, Reach is worth waaaay more than 2 (average) damage.

5) You're a Barbarian, Harry. It's definitely a Str-focused build to benefit from Rage damage and Reckless (when you feel you need it), as well as for grappling. Spring for Dex: Medium Armour, because why the hell not? Pump Con for being bullet-proof, Wisdom high enough so you don't get chumped out because of a crappy Perception score and Charisma investment is nice for being Intimidatin'. Int...no. Or to put it another way:

Str: All of it, Dex: 14, Con: All of it, Int: Who cares?, Wis: The rest, Cha: To taste

I also recommend...
Lvl.1: Barbarian (Save profs, slightly more HP, Rage)
Lvl.2-6: Rogue (Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge)
Lvl.7-10: Barbarian (Extra Attack)
Lvl.11+: Rogue (all the Rogue goodies, Sneak Attack)

"But JP..." I hear you ask "why delay Extra Attack until level 10 if you're recommending grappling?" Well, young padawan, it's because this isn't a damage build. Yes, it's nice to be able to grapple and attack in the same round, but if you wanted to deal damage, you skip the grapple and just attack; grappling doesn't help you hit or increase your damage, so why would you grapple if that's your goal? Another commonly espoused tactic is grappling and then knocking someone prone to lock them in place, but again, if you want to knock someone down, just do that. When you're grappling, you want to grab them, spring for Cunning Action: Dash and haul that mutha to where you want them to be; preferably surrounded by a bunch of your mates, who have big sticks (and probably Extra Attack, so they can knock them down for you if you really want them on the ground...never forget that it's a team game). Now, assuming you want a multiclass build that gets off the ground as early as possible, Extra Attack comes online at level 5 at the earliest, at which point, you're not multiclassed, of course and therefore not benefitting from any of the synergy of the build; you may as well play the character as a run-of-the-mill Barbarian up to that point. The Grapple-Dash guy, on the other hand, comes online at level 3 (Bar 1/Rog 2) and has you taking advantage of the Athletics synergy and Sneak Attack bonus damage (not to mention the additonal skill proficiency and Expertise); you're game experience is very much one of a multiclassed build from that much earlier point. After that, you're really angling for your first Feat, so getting Rogue to 4 at character level 5 is your next priority and Uncanny Dodge at CL:6 is too good to pass up. You also happen to pick up Fast Hands along the way; a significant element of this control build. The alternative of aiming for Extra Attack ASAP is to delay Sentinel until level 6 and Fast Hands until level 8...and why would you do that in favour of a feature that increases your damage output, when damage isn't the primary focus of your build?

ASI/Feats
Lvl.5: Sentinel
Lvl.9: Mobile
Lvl.13/15/17: Whatever. Str? Con? At this level, Magic Items and other factors may dictate what you'll want or need, so don't sweat planning this far ahead, IMO.

6) Subclasses. I'm going to go ahead and say I've personally had a blast with a Thief Rogue/Wolf Totem Barbarian build.

Thief for improved athleticism, UMD (very late), but mostly for Fast Hands. I could write an essay on Fast Hands, but the short version is that it's an additional control element, whether you're using personal equipment like ball-bearings, torches and traps, or you're manipulating terrain like doors and furniture. The advantage on Strength checks from Rage also plays into this for manipulating super-heavy objects as a bonus action (we're talking examples like turning over hundred-person banqueting tables and lifting portcullis gates and still being able to get another Action in on your turn). NB - this aspect relies heavily on GM buy-in to your build as it involves including descriptive elements (like furniture) for you to interact with. Be sure to discuss this with them before commiting to it, or you won't get the most out of it.

Wolf Totem is party dependent; if you're the only melee guy, you're not going to get as much out of Wolf as you would a different Totem or Barbarian subclass. If, on the other hand, you have another Rogue in the party, they'll love you being a Wolf and everyone else making attack rolls will appreciate the free advantage, which you'll be providing by doing something you were going to do anyways (i.e. stand next to enemies). Wolf Totem is also a great way to improve the accuracy of summons and other minions or followers that might otherwise suffer from low to-hit modifiers or lack the incentive or capability to generate their own advantage. Wolf Totem also ties in well to the grappling aspect of the build; if you're grappling, you don't need to fuss about knocking them down to grant advantage because Wolf is doing it for you (also tying in to my previous commentary about why Extra Attack isn't a big focus for this build).

Anyways, this is a build I've had personal experience with and it's been, by far, the most enjoyable one I've had the pleasure of playing in actual play. It's flexible and versatile, giving good return on all features at just about every level of play, allows a great degree of interactivity with the world, is a good team-player as well as being more than comptetent solo. Moreover, it's a build that makes you feel powerful and competent; you have big modifiers, roll lots of dice and do more stuff all the time; you might not be the character that does the most damage or solves all the puzzles, but you'll help everyone else do all those things and be involved in just about every aspect of play.

[Rfkannen]

Grappling is a fun frontline optimization point. Also just being a support build.

Grappler -Get expertise Athletics, dueling (or a race like Simic Hybrid with separate grappling appendages if allowed) and preferably a way to enlarge yourself.

Support - Armorer Artificer in Guardian mode with support spells. Punch bad guys and make it harder for them to hit your allies while concentrating on a buff/control spell.

Ancestral Guardian/Ancients Paladin - Slightly MAD, but if you can pull it off it gets goof at high levels. Barbarian for forcing disadvantage to attack others, rage to further your own survivability, Auras to support others and boost your own survivability. Instead of focusing on damage focus on getting enemies to focus you. If you combine this with the grapple build you can always have something to do that gives your team an upper hand without dealing more damage. (You only really NEED Str, but your Aura will rely on CHA, every front line needs CON, and you need at least 14 DEX for maximum medium armor AC) I would only level into Barbarian to get the subclass, maybe the ASI and then stop. It's just for grabbing attention while raging and granting advantage on grapples if you go that route.


Avoid the damage feats obviously. If you take GWM you're gonna want to use it.

A grappler could be a lot of fun! I would want to avoid simic hybrid (doesn't really fit any of the settings of the dms I play with. How would a dueling glory paladin or a unarmed fighting style rune knight work?

Armorer looks like a ton of fun! It looks like of bad though, anyone have any experiance with it yet?

Oh that barbarian paladin sounds like FUN!!

Yeah those damage feats always catch me. They are so tempting!! I feel like playing a grappler with a one handed weapon would be a good incentive to not use them! (on other characters I don't usually have too strong an idea of what weapon they should use, so using a two hander or a ranged weapon is not really a restriction lol)

[LudicSavant]

I am the min maxer of my group. When I make a character, I like to have them be effective at their thing; I just find that a lot more fun. I always make a character first and then build them, but 5e is simple enough to min-max basically any character concept.

My problem is that often characters I make wind up being damage dealers, which can be weird. Every character in 5e is supposed to deal damage, so having one pc that does twice the damage of another can feel not great.

For my next character, I want to make a character who does not focus on damage but instead on something else. But I am not sure what else I could build to do.

Healing I also find frustrating. My group often goes several combats in a row without someone dropping, so being "the healer" in a party that doesn't need healing can be very dull.

My first thought was a bard with hypnotic patterns and stuff like that, but I also have realized I like playing front line characters. Sitting in the back hiding behind a tree isn't really my idea of exciting combat.


Any ideas for what types of characters might work? What would be some fun builds? What could I optimize for?

Here's some examples of frontliners that aren't just optimized for damage (though they're no slouches in that regard, either):
The Arcana Cleric Frontliner (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds)
The Soulknife (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523)
The Ancestral Avenger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511)
The Ancestral Nightmare (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23917496&postcount=103)


My first thought was a bard with hypnotic patterns and stuff like that, but I also have realized I like playing front line characters. Sitting in the back hiding behind a tree isn't really my idea of exciting combat.

Lore Bard frontliner builds are totally a thing, if you wanna go that route.


Healing I also find frustrating. My group often goes several combats in a row without someone dropping, so being "the healer" in a party that doesn't need healing can be very dull.

If things are too easy, why not ask the DM to double the CR and number of encounters?

[Rfkannen]

Just read about an interesting melee control build of barbarian/rogue in the linked thread.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626784-Reckless-Rogue&p=24925613

Oh that looks awesome!


Optimize helping. Make sure everyone has advantage and the enemies have disadvantage constantly.
Once you have that you can mix in CC and area denial for taste.

That sounds like a lot of fun! any build recommendations?


Here's some examples of frontliners that aren't just optimized for damage (though they're no slouches in that regard, either):
The Arcana Cleric Frontliner (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds)
The Soulknife (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24681222&postcount=523)
The Ancestral Avenger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511)
The Ancestral Nightmare (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23917496&postcount=103)



Lore Bard frontliner builds are totally a thing, if you wanna go that route.



If things are too easy, why not ask the DM to double the CR and number of encounters?

I love those builds! they look like a lot of fun!

How in the world do you build a lore bard frontliner? And why wouldn't you go valor?

I have played two healers with two gms. The first time was with the main gm I play with, and she is very much trying to make combat a lot harder, but is having trouble with it. The second time was wth decent into avernus and they ran things by the book. (That character was so frusting lol, I was a life cleric, practically immortal, could bring back the deal, heal from nothing, but no one ever attacked me and I quickly figured out I didn't actually need to heal anyone.... The fantasy of the life cleric is one of my favorites but that was kind of a bummer, I mostly wound up being a spirit quardians and spiritual weapon character which is not what I envisioned.)

[J-H]

Melee crowd control. A monk with the Crusher feat can:
-Push an enemy 5' into an unoccupied space [off a ledge?] when you hit it and deal bludgeoning damage.
-Grant everyone advantage on attacks against a turn for 1 round when you score a critical hit.

Plus, as a monk:
-Stunning fist like normal.
-Trade one of your normal attack actions for a disarm attempt (attack roll vs. defender's Athletics or Acrobatics check). Use your free object interaction to then kick the dropped weapon away.

If you're an Open Hand monk, when you spend a Ki point for 2 Flurry of Blows attacks, you can do the following with BOTH attacks if they hit (choose one):
-Dex save or prone
-Str save or shoved 15' away from you
-No reactions until the end of your NEXT turn [free disengage next round, turn off a caster's ability to Counterspell or cast Shield for a round, etc.]
-You can also make this a stunning strike hit if you want.

At a cost of 1 ki point and without factoring in "Con or stun", in one round, you can
1) Disarm
2) Punch/kick/monk weapon hit (or a second disarm?)
3) Unarmed strike and shove or prone or prevent reactions
4) Unarmed strike and shove or prone or prevent reactions again
5) With one of your hits, push someone 5'

That's 4 melee crowd control attempts per round, without factoring in Stunning Fist or granting advantage with a critical hit.

You are Jackie Chan.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd played a v.human, life cleric 1/ lore bard for the rest and it worked out pretty great. High str, low dex with heavy armor, expertise on athletics, and shield master at 1st level. Every fight I'd grapple and shove prone the most dangerous opponent, then drag them around and cast spells that only have verbal components: vicious mockery, dissonant whispers, healing word, command, faerie fire, blindness/deafness, etc. Swap out life domain for forge or twilight or order or whatever else you want. We didn't reach a very high level, but you could start off with a hypnotic pattern or similar then move in and grab/shove the most dangerous opponent who made the save.

[Eldariel]

Well, Cleric is great at doing some damage while drawing a lot of attention and making it hard for enemies to damage either him or his allies. So that's one way to go. Though of course, integral part of that is Spirit Guardians, which does do reasonable amounts of damage. Still, overall it works pretty well.

[Scarytincan]

Got a build in mind to recreate a dungeons and dragons online character I had back in the day. He's warforged but race don't matter. Was planning BM fighter with crusher, sentinel, shield master, then later slasher (was gonna ask to buy a custom weapon, adamantine and silvered, basically a typical wood cutters axe with an axe blade on one side and hammer /blunt head on the other to be able to use both slasher and crusher features each round), then probably skill expert athletics for grapples/shield master shoves or GWM for when you need extra damage on the boss. Also the cleave attack condition can be met with one handed weapons if I recall.

Lot of variety of cc and lock down, taking all the control BM maneuvers and using them in conjunction with crusher /slasher /sentinel. Carry a whip as well for when you really need to cover an area, slasher plus tripping attack at 10'. Pushing attacks combined with crusher, then crusher combined with sentinel on opportunity attacks (cuz crusher /slasher are once PER TURN not ROUND). Shield shoves. Some javelins for menacing attack or the goading attack etc on the archers or strikers trying to get past you then free item interaction to draw the axe and just yell at the masses "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!"

Lots of half feats so can still max str.

If you can't get a dual damage type weapon, could trade shield master for a dual wield build and have the whip in off hand.

[Scarytincan]

Melee crowd control. A monk with the Crusher feat can:
-Push an enemy 5' into an unoccupied space [off a ledge?] when you hit it and deal bludgeoning damage.
-Grant everyone advantage on attacks against a turn for 1 round when you score a critical hit.

Plus, as a monk:
-Stunning fist like normal.
-Trade one of your normal attack actions for a disarm attempt (attack roll vs. defender's Athletics or Acrobatics check). Use your free object interaction to then kick the dropped weapon away.

If you're an Open Hand monk, when you spend a Ki point for 2 Flurry of Blows attacks, you can do the following with BOTH attacks if they hit (choose one):
-Dex save or prone
-Str save or shoved 15' away from you
-No reactions until the end of your NEXT turn [free disengage next round, turn off a caster's ability to Counterspell or cast Shield for a round, etc.]
-You can also make this a stunning strike hit if you want.

At a cost of 1 ki point and without factoring in "Con or stun", in one round, you can
1) Disarm
2) Punch/kick/monk weapon hit (or a second disarm?)
3) Unarmed strike and shove or prone or prevent reactions
4) Unarmed strike and shove or prone or prevent reactions again
5) With one of your hits, push someone 5'

That's 4 melee crowd control attempts per round, without factoring in Stunning Fist or granting advantage with a critical hit.

You are Jackie Chan.

Take a race with claws and have slasher AND crusher and use both each round! May want a tortle str build since can't up dex with crusher sadly :( but not a huge loss, can still up con instead if not. Crusher on the flurry attack that pushes, slasher on the one that trips.

[LudicSavant]

I love those builds! they look like a lot of fun!

How in the world do you build a lore bard frontliner? And why wouldn't you go valor?

I'll address the second question first (because I'm thinking of maybe doing a full build post for the first question, time allowing).

For a frontliner Bard, here's why I generally don't go Valor:

1) Extra Attack is only as good as the features supporting it. Dex isn't your primary stat, and you're not getting Magical Secrets until level 10, and if you're multiclassing for even one level to deal with either of these things, the armor proficiencies from Valor don't matter.

2) Combat Inspiration makes an ally harder to hit, not you. And only if you pre-used Bardic Inspiration on them with a bonus action beforehand, knowing that they'd be the one chosen for the attack... such as if someone other than you was a lockdown tank.

By contrast, Cutting Words makes anyone harder to hit, on reaction. And also combos neatly with Armor of Agathys. And also does a bunch of other nice things.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Oh that looks awesome!



That sounds like a lot of fun! any build recommendations?



I love those builds! they look like a lot of fun!

How in the world do you build a lore bard frontliner? And why wouldn't you go valor?

I have played two healers with two gms. The first time was with the main gm I play with, and she is very much trying to make combat a lot harder, but is having trouble with it. The second time was wth decent into avernus and they ran things by the book. (That character was so frusting lol, I was a life cleric, practically immortal, could bring back the deal, heal from nothing, but no one ever attacked me and I quickly figured out I didn't actually need to heal anyone.... The fantasy of the life cleric is one of my favorites but that was kind of a bummer, I mostly wound up being a spirit quardians and spiritual weapon character which is not what I envisioned.)

We've never really found a need or way to make in combat healing a 'thing'. As one of our DMs I'm trying to get more encounters in a day and that has probably made the situation lean even more this way. Lots of moderate encounters tend to be more an erosion of resources and hp as opposed to one or two big encounters where it would be worth setting up some sort of round over round healing. Probably the only exceptions we've found are the Paladin Lay on Hands for 5 hp per level maxed gets used in the odd big fight and Healing word since it's a bonus action.
On the other hand something like Inspirational Leader or the Shepard Druid ability to provide bonus HP ahead of time seems a lot more efficient. While not perhaps fitting the OP's description of building a character around, I'd say in a party of 4-5 from an optimization point of view somebody ought to be providing bonus hp; if the party is larger or there are NPC or one of the characters is a summoner, then it's absolutely an optimization need.

[Waazraath]

A pretty basic one is good ol Battle Master with PAM and Sentinel; pick some controll maneuvers (for instance to trip, or push back, or disarm if you have a party member that might make use of it). You'll still do decent damage, but are mainly controling the battlefield and blocking the path to your allies, and giving tactical advantages.

[BoutsofInsanity]

You want to grapple. And you want to do more than grapple.

Allow me to introduce my favorite page in the Player's handbook. Page 195 at the top right corner talks about contests of skill. Essentially, DM's are to be given latitude to use opposed ability rolls to resolve contests of skill. Grappling is only the example.

Pretty much every Battle Master Maneuver, barring a few are, open to be done just as a character. And this is the frame work to accomplish it. You need to understand that you are replacing attacks and actions with skill checks. So Damage won't be the forefront of your abilities. (Battle Master's can do the maneuvers as rider's on-top of their damaging attacks, they are more efficient, deadlier, and target saves while doing damage. You will not have those.


Blinding someone for a round? Opposed athletics checks as you slam an eyepoke for no damage but the condition effect.
Grapple someone to the ground? Add on a gagging attack by slamming your forearm into their mouth stopping vocalizations
Poison condition? Liver shot or slamming the helmet with a blunt object - No damage but conditions have been applied
What's that? Intimidate for the fear effect? Intimidate Skill Roll using whatever attribute is appropriate. Like Strength as you The Mountain a guy's face?


You can do this in several ways.


Go Big Hoss Goliath Bear Totem Barbarian Build with skill expert as a feat for all the strength shenanigans
Rune Fighter for the enlargement and skill expert feat
Go dexterity as a Monk / Rogue Thief to use acrobatics for trips and sleight of hand checks for disarming people.
Lastly the good ole straight Battle Master Fighter gets it done as well.



Open your mind to the possibilities. Talk with your GM. Point them at page 195. And have fun.

[Amechra]

One potentially interesting idea? Take the Slasher feat and optimize for slowing people down.

You're fighting something with a speed of 30ft? Slash them and cut that to 20ft. If they try to run away, your OA can drop that down to 10ft. Sure it isn't Sentinel's ability to stop them cold, but in return you can split the speed reduction across two creatures. Find a good source of difficult terrain or pick up Spirit Shroud, and you can slow your enemies down even further.

[stoutstien]

One potentially interesting idea? Take the Slasher feat and optimize for slowing people down.

You're fighting something with a speed of 30ft? Slash them and cut that to 20ft. If they try to run away, your OA can drop that down to 10ft. Sure it isn't Sentinel's ability to stop them cold, but in return you can split the speed reduction across two creatures. Find a good source of difficult terrain or pick up Spirit Shroud, and you can slow your enemies down even further.

The same effect cannot stack. so while you could reduce 2 targets by 10 you cannot reduce one by 20 using only slasher.

[ZRN]

Not a particularly original build, but a straight up Conquest Paladin is a famously good control-oriented front-liner.

[Scarytincan]

The same effect cannot stack. so while you could reduce 2 targets by 10 you cannot reduce one by 20 using only slasher.

It is limited by once per turn, not per round. Do you have a source to back up your claim that they can't stack with an opportunity attack?

[Kane0]

Open palm monk with crusher and sentinel

[stoutstien]

It is limited by once per turn, not per round. Do you have a source to back up your claim that they can't stack with an opportunity attack?
DMG. Pg 252-253* (AFB) combining game effects.

[Scarytincan]

DMG. Pg 252-253* (AFB) combining game effects.

Thank you.

I could certainly see people ruling it so based on that. On the other hand, I feel like this is applied more to things involving die rolls or conditions. For instance, movement speed reductions still stack with difficult terrain, and even different kinds of difficult terrain stack. But I think the RAW argument at least would favor you perhaps... Hmmm...

Let's take crusher for instance. You hit, you move the target 5 feet. On the targets turn, the once per turn has been satisfied, so the opportunity attack moves them 5' again. The movement speed reduction is not a condition (stunned, poisoned etc) and overall the feat is so similar to crusher, I'd really have a hard time seeing it being ruled differently in that one case from crusher.

Now I'm gonna have to start another thread for this...

[Lokishade]

I present you the Fighter1/Abjurer X, A.K.A. the Iron Man.

Starting with one level of Figther, you get all the armors of the game and proficiency with Con saves. With the Defense Fighting Style, you'll rock 19 AC right out of the gate if your campaign starts at level 1. If you chose Variant Human, pick Heavy Armor Master for extra durability, especially if you start at the lower levels.

Then, you start your melee Wizard career. Your attack cantrip will be Shocking Grasp, which will deprive an enemy of reactions, allowing all allies to disengage from a hard hitter that got in their face (sometimes, the enemy gets the drop on you) while you remain there to tank it.

Your level 1 spell slots will serve mostly for the Shield spell, which will make you functionnally immune to anything that targets AC and didn't crit. It will also replenish your Arcane Ward by 2 points, making you the only character with DR that regens HP.

Your second level spell slots will fuel your Burning Hands. You got the armor, you can get into position and snag as many enemies in a zone as you can. You may be the tank, but you got to establish yourself as a threat.

At level 6, you'll unlock your third level spell slots, and from then on, your concentration slot will almost be permanently taken by Haste. Got a Polearm Barb, Fighter or Pally that hits hard? Now, he moves twice as fast, can either Cunning Action like a Thief or attack one extra time for massive damage. Also provides advantage on Dex saves and +2 AC. You'll be the Haste bot while you Shocking Grasp/Burning Hands away in the fray, keeping your concentration up through War Caster, which you picked up on the way.

Your goal is to recklessly endanger yourself. If you find yourself surrounded by enemies and feel enough pressure to Dodge while your team slowly snipes them away, you're doing it right. All physical damage is reduced by 3 per hit, which is hilarious when you combine it with Blade Ward, because 8 damage translates to 1 damage.

As a melee mage, your bread and butter is Con saves and War Caster. You want your spells to hold while you soak up damage. And you've got extra pressure with Haste, since once it ends, your boosted ally loses a turn. If you think Eldritch Knight does that better, remember he doesn't have access to Haste before level 13 and most campaigns don't even get that far.

Another edge over EK? You're a freaking Wizard! You've got TONS of options and utility to support your group. Like a Phantom Steed that grants an ally 200ft of movement to initiate a battle while the other one zooms around with Haste. And if your campaign does get to higher levels, you're one of the rare builds that get to make use of Tenser's Transformation. Who needs to optimize Strength when you have perma-advantage on attacks for 10 minutes?

Strengths of this build:

Durability

Between DR on the most common damge types and small health regen from powerful defensive spells like Shield and Counterspell, you're one tough nut to crack. And this build allows you to get into the fray and use melee spells effectively, a rare opportunity to change things up.

Versatility

You're a Wizard. From the second level onward, you have access to anything the Wizard spell list offers to you, which is huge. You essentially have Ritual Caster: Wizard for free! You're free to keep on with the challenge of being exclusively melee tank support, but you can also mix things up by throwing a Fireball here and there. Whatever you feel like doing for a change of pace, you can do it.

You're not a spotlight hugger

Haste is best used on your team mates and they will love you for it.

Cons to this build:

Zone effects

You're weak to AoEs. You can take anything except fireballs. You may have magic resistance from spells, but that comes at level 15, which won't matter in most campaigns. You also have invested in Strength, meaning your Dexterity is somewhere between 10 and 12 and you're not proficient with Dex saves. Though the last part can be mitigated with a feat, your number of ASIs are low and come one level late.

You number of ASIs are low and come one level late

This build isn't broken to the point of rendering the Eldritch Knight obselete. You're trading 2 ASIs and extra attacks for being a full caster. 3 ASIs if you take another Fighter level for Action Surge, which you reserved for the end of your campaign to get all the magic at a reasonable pace and to whip out an eleventh hour Dual-Cast.

You won't max out everything.

With this much versatility comes the desire to max out on Strength, Intelligence and even Constitution, as well as picking up Resilient: Dexterity, Shield Master and other goodies, but you won't have enough ASIs. On paper, this will feel anything but optimized. You will have to choose between maxing out your Intelligence by level 13 for maximum spell effectiveness or covering up that glaring weakness to AoEs.


I had tons of fun with this build when playing it, though I only played it to level 7 (for now).

[Quietus]

Your goal is to recklessly endanger yourself. If you find yourself surrounded by enemies and feel enough pressure to Dodge while your team slowly snipes them away, you're doing it right. All physical damage is reduced by 3 per hit, which is hilarious when you combine it with Blade Ward, because 8 damage translates to 1 damage.

Not aiming to criticize the rest of the build, but HAM and Resistance don't stack that way. Resistance gets applied after any other resistances, so against 8 damage, it gets reduced to 5, and then halved to 2. So, you know. Still not bad, but it makes a difference.

[Lokishade]

Can you point to me where it is written? I did some research after posting this part and found nothing.

I always assumed that anything that comes from magic just gets placed first in priority, like a blanket of magical energy placed on top of everything else (and that Arcane Ward was the exception because it was its own entity and therefore excluded from the range of self).

I haven't yet encountered documentation adressing this directly, but it wouldn't surprise me if I simply missed it.

[Amechra]

The same effect cannot stack. so while you could reduce 2 targets by 10 you cannot reduce one by 20 using only slasher.

Ah, fair enough. I kinda talked myself into it working through a comparison with stuff like a Vampire Spawn's max HP reduction, which I think is supposed to stack by RAI.

[stoutstien]

Ah, fair enough. I kinda talked myself into it working through a comparison with stuff like a Vampire Spawn's max HP reduction, which I think is supposed to stack by RAI.

That NPC's bite attack is badly worded. anytime an effect reduces max HP, or the rare ability drain, the effect is instant but the reduction is permanent until stated parameters are met. like normal HP reduction.

[Quietus]

Can you point to me where it is written? I did some research after posting this part and found nothing.

I always assumed that anything that comes from magic just gets placed first in priority, like a blanket of magical energy placed on top of everything else (and that Arcane Ward was the exception because it was its own entity and therefore excluded from the range of self).

I haven't yet encountered documentation adressing this directly, but it wouldn't surprise me if I simply missed it.

PHB, page 197.


Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage. For example, a creature has resistance to bludgeoning damage and is hit by an attack that deals 25 bludgeoning damage. The creature is also within a magical aura that reduces all damage by 5. The 25 damage is first reduced by 5 and then halved, so the creature takes 10 damage.

[Lokishade]

Thank you.

[Greywander]

They've already been mentioned, but I'm going to second a grappler or a Conquest paladin. There are a lot of ways to build grapplers, be sure to check the Grappler's Manual (https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-grapplers-manual-2-0-grappling-in-5th-edition.468737/) for more information. It's out of date now, the major things to know about are Tasha's changes to how racial ASIs work, as well as the addition of the Rune Knight fighter subclass, which gives you the feature Giant's Might that acts very similar to Enlarge/Reduce, only it's not a spell, doesn't require concentration, and uses a BA instead of an action.

Grapplers are a specialized tank/controller hybrid; their modus operandi is to lock one (or two) enemies in place by grappling them, usually shoving them prone as well so that they have disadvantage on all their attacks while you and your friends have advantage on yours. Breaking the grapple requires spending their action, and if your bonus is high enough then their chances will be so low that it's not worth trying. They're only recourse then is to try and eliminate you so that they can escape. Grapplers aren't damage builds, but their playstyle makes them excellent tanks because they force enemies to target them even though your damage isn't the highest. As such, it's better to focus on beefing up your defenses and insuring your grapple will stick.

The main things to get on a grappler are Extra Attack (so you can either grapple two targets, one in each hand, or you can grapple and shove prone, all in one round), expertise on Athletics checks (rogue, bard, or Skill Expert feat), and advantage on STR checks (barbarian Rage, Rune Knight Giant's Might, Enlarge/Reduce, or Enhance Ability). Aside from that, there are a lot of different combos you can do. Fighter can get you more attacks so you can grapple/shove more in a single round, rogue gets Reliable Talent to further insure your grapples land, several different caster classes get spells that can support their grapples, and so on. Straight Rune Knight is interesting because they can eventually become huge sized, allowing them to grapple literally anything, even a tarrasque.

Conquest paladin is actually pretty similar to a grappler. At 7th level, you get Aura of Conquest, which reduces the speed of frightened creatures within the aura to 0, much like grappling does. So a Conquest paladin plays like a short ranged mass grappler almost. Wrathful Smite is your bread and butter, and particularly noteworthy in that as long as they fail the initial save, subsequent rounds use an ability check, not a save, to break free, which they'll have disadvantage on due to fear.

In either case, you'll want to make sure you're prepared for enemies who are immune to your gimmick. There's a few creatures like ghosts and stuff that can't be grappled, but also flying creatures can be tricky to grapple if you yourself can't fly (winged tiefling can be a good fix here). A lot of monsters are also immune to fear. The good news is that you don't have to invest a lot to excel at either of these builds, so you can still have a solid paladin or fighter or whatever chassis to fall back on. A Rune Knight grappler might not be the best with a longbow, but they're as good as any other melee-optimized fighter is. And paladins are still quite strong, even without their subclass features.