Armorer Artificer and magic armor (not infusions!)

[MrCharlie]

I was reading through the armorer and realized that, RAW, the arcane armor feature does not require you to target a nonmagical suit of armor, just one you are wearing. However, your infusions still require a nonmagical armor target. At early levels this is sortuve a non-issue as you almost don't care-if you have magic armor it's as good as an infusion anyway.

But at level 9 your arcane armor counts as separate items, and you gain two extra infusions just for the arcane armor. Which leads to a question-if you make arcane armor out of a magical suit of armor and have the 9th level armorer feature, are the pieces of the armor (other than the breastplate) magical and thus invalid targets for your infusions? Or is only the breastplate a magical item?

[Damon_Tor]

But at level 9 your arcane armor counts as separate items, and you gain two extra infusions just for the arcane armor. Which leads to a question-if you make arcane armor out of a magical suit of armor and have the 9th level armorer feature, are the pieces of the armor (other than the breastplate) magical and thus invalid targets for your infusions? Or is only the breastplate a magical item?

By RAW, yes. However, I doubt that's what was intended.

[stoutstien]

DM dependent. Hate to be that vague but the wording is left open ended enough to have quite can few different interpretations. Not a bad thing IMO but you won't find an answer outside a given table.

[Kane0]

Sounds like an oversight. Easy solution is to specify at level 9 that your additional infusions will work on magical armor

[Silpharon]

It's completely vague, and needs correction by WotC. My recommendation is either the armor can "bear an infusion" at level 9 regardless of magical origin, or the chest piece can't but the rest can.

There are similar issues with wearing magical armor before level 9: can you add enhance weapon to your Lightning Launcher or Thunder Gauntlets, or since it's part of the armor you can't? Who the heck knows the intention, but I'd say you can.

[casb1965]

It's completely vague, and needs correction by WotC. My recommendation is either the armor can "bear an infusion" at level 9 regardless of magical origin, or the chest piece can't but the rest can.

There are similar issues with wearing magical armor before level 9: can you add enhance weapon to your Lightning Launcher or Thunder Gauntlets, or since it's part of the armor you can't? Who the heck knows the intention, but I'd say you can.

The wording of the Armor modifications clarify the question "That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions,".

You have 4 clear and distinct items that can, at this point, bear an infusion. Prior to this they are considered one piece of armour and therefore can only bear one infusion, even the wording of the armor at level 3 is clear.

"You can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it.

Each model includes a special weapon."

The armour includes the weapon, it does not produce a separate and distinct weapon.

So prior to level 9 you can have magical armour, infusion enhance armour or infusion enhanced weapon (if using Thunder Gauntlets or Lightning Launcher) afterwards you have 4 pieces to make magic or infuse.

[Stangler]

At no point are the different pieces ever defined as one item. It is only the armorer that defines all the pieces as one thing and that is solely for the purpose of qualifying for the special infusion bonus.

You can always infuse and attune to each of those listed item types, they just count towards your number of infused items like normal. This feature is just about increasing your number of infused items but with a limitation saying they have to be your armour, and for the purposes of this ability armour includes the list of items.

[casb1965]

At no point are the different pieces ever defined as one item. It is only the armorer that defines all the pieces as one thing and that is solely for the purpose of qualifying for the special infusion bonus.

You can always infuse and attune to each of those listed item types, they just count towards your number of infused items like normal. This feature is just about increasing your number of infused items but with a limitation saying they have to be your armour, and for the purposes of this ability armour includes the list of items.

No, each infusion clearly states what it infuses e.g. Enhanced Defense Item: A suit of armor or a shield or Armor of Magical Strength Item: A suit of armor, it says "suit of armour" it doesn't say helmet or chest piece.
Even the level 3 Armorer feature says Suit of Armor. "Arcane Armor
3rd-level Armorer feature

Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand."

Not until level 9 does it refer to armour by it's individual pieces.

I can keep quoting the rule book https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/artificer#Armorer all day if you want but until you hit level 9 a suit of armour is a suit of armour not individual pieces.

[MrCharlie]

No, each infusion clearly states what it infuses e.g. Enhanced Defense Item: A suit of armor or a shield or Armor of Magical Strength Item: A suit of armor, it says "suit of armour" it doesn't say helmet or chest piece.
Even the level 3 Armorer feature says Suit of Armor. "Arcane Armor
3rd-level Armorer feature

Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand."

Not until level 9 does it refer to armour by it's individual pieces.

I can keep quoting the rule book https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/artificer#Armorer all day if you want but until you hit level 9 a suit of armour is a suit of armour not individual pieces.
It's still entirely valid to say that the weapon is separate from the armor, because the rules never make any attempt to clarify. To put it another way-even if the rules make them separate at level 9, they could already have been separate.

For the thunder gauntlet it's defined as a simple melee weapon that happens to be an "armored fist", but does that mean it's a separate item? Well, the lightning launcher is at least defined as separate from the armored fist, a gemlock node that just happens to be on it-so is one of the weapons a separate item and the other isn't?

After reading through it I agree with your reasoning regarding magic armor being directly infused-and even at level 9 you can make the case that it's only considered separate pieces for infusions, not the effect of magic armor which makes the entire suit magical.

[casb1965]

It's still entirely valid to say that the weapon is separate from the armor, because the rules never make any attempt to clarify. To put it another way-even if the rules make them separate at level 9, they could already have been separate.

For the thunder gauntlet it's defined as a simple melee weapon that happens to be an "armored fist", but does that mean it's a separate item? Well, the lightning launcher is at least defined as separate from the armored fist, a gemlock node that just happens to be on it-so is one of the weapons a separate item and the other isn't?

After reading through it I agree with your reasoning regarding magic armor being directly infused-and even at level 9 you can make the case that it's only considered separate pieces for infusions, not the effect of magic armor which makes the entire suit magical.

"You design your armor to be in the front line of conflict. It has the following features: Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon"

It seems pretty clear the gauntlets are part of the armour.

With the Lightning Launcher "A gemlike node appears on one of your armored fists or on the chest (your choice)." but again the rule says "You customize your armor for subtle undertakings. It has the following features:"

It doesn't say you add these weapons to your armor it says you customize your armour to include, therefore, they are part of your armour.

If they were separate items then your Armour Modifications at level 9 are irrelevant as you could already do it at level 3!

[Stangler]

No, each infusion clearly states what it infuses e.g. Enhanced Defense Item: A suit of armor or a shield or Armor of Magical Strength Item: A suit of armor, it says "suit of armour" it doesn't say helmet or chest piece.
Even the level 3 Armorer feature says Suit of Armor. "Arcane Armor
3rd-level Armorer feature

Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand."

Not until level 9 does it refer to armour by it's individual pieces.

I can keep quoting the rule book https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/artificer#Armorer all day if you want but until you hit level 9 a suit of armour is a suit of armour not individual pieces.
So what? You didn’t actually say anything that is contrary to what I said. A suit of armour is armour. A helmet is a helmet. Boots are boots. You could always wear magical armour and a magical helmet and magical boots. All infused by you. None of that changes. What is a new thing is “arcane armour” which is essentially your iron man suit. You get 2 free infusions as long as they are part of the arcane armour. Which includes 4 specific parts. This specific rule only applies for the purpose of the arcane armour rules.

[Stangler]

"You design your armor to be in the front line of conflict. It has the following features: Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon"

It seems pretty clear the gauntlets are part of the armour.

With the Lightning Launcher "A gemlike node appears on one of your armored fists or on the chest (your choice)." but again the rule says "You customize your armor for subtle undertakings. It has the following features:"

It doesn't say you add these weapons to your armor it says you customize your armour to include, therefore, they are part of your armour.

If they were separate items then your Armour Modifications at level 9 are irrelevant as you could already do it at level 3!

This is wrong. You even quote the part about the gauntlets counting as a simple weapon. A simple weapon can be infused. You are inventing a rule that the gauntlets can’t be infused. That exception to the general rules concerning simple weapon infusions simply doesn’t exist. Sure you can make the assumption that you did but it isn’t written.

[MrCharlie]

"You design your armor to be in the front line of conflict. It has the following features: Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor’s gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon"

It seems pretty clear the gauntlets are part of the armour.

With the Lightning Launcher "A gemlike node appears on one of your armored fists or on the chest (your choice)." but again the rule says "You customize your armor for subtle undertakings. It has the following features:"

It doesn't say you add these weapons to your armor it says you customize your armour to include, therefore, they are part of your armour.

If they were separate items then your Armour Modifications at level 9 are irrelevant as you could already do it at level 3!
Irrelevant, to the last. You still couldn't do that to the gauntlets (if the weapons are separate from the gauntlets) and the helmet.

Otherwise, you're stretching to say that customizing your armor implies that the weapons are part of your armor. It's described as a separate part. However, it's a valid interpretation that it is-as it is a valid interpretation that it isn't. I actually favor the interpretation, in light of those sentences, that the lighting launcher is clearly not part of your armor.

I agree that the thunder gauntlets it pretty explicit RAW; it doesen't work. The other interpretation is that gauntlets and armor aren't the same thing to begin with, but at least full plate explicitly includes gauntlets...Of course, people don't generally interpret taking off your gauntlets as removing your full plate armor.

Long story short, clarification is probably needed as to all parts of this except infusing magic armor itself at level 3. It's also pretty explicitly not intended that lighting launchers and thunder gauntlets work differently for this.

[Silpharon]

The wording of the Armor modifications clarify the question "That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon. Each of those items can bear one of your infusions,".

You have 4 clear and distinct items that can, at this point, bear an infusion. Prior to this they are considered one piece of armour and therefore can only bear one infusion, even the wording of the armor at level 3 is clear.

"You can customize your Arcane Armor. When you do so, choose one of the following armor models: Guardian or Infiltrator. The model you choose gives you special benefits while you wear it.

Each model includes a special weapon."

The armour includes the weapon, it does not produce a separate and distinct weapon.

So prior to level 9 you can have magical armour, infusion enhance armour or infusion enhanced weapon (if using Thunder Gauntlets or Lightning Launcher) afterwards you have 4 pieces to make magic or infuse.

Taking a step back, think about it from a RP perspective. Mr Armorer has had the skill (since level 2) to enhance weapons and armor through tinkering. At level 3, he discovered how to take armor and turn it into a full body suit. He additionally learned how to make thunder gauntlets and a lightning launcher as ways to add to the two modes of his suit.

Consider the scenario of using +1 breastplate. Mr Armorer decides to fashion the suit as an Infiltrator, and puts the node-like gem lightning launcher on his fist. The assertion has been made that he cannot then tinker with the weapon to improve it, because the armor is magical. I could see the argument that maybe it'll "upset the magic", but he just contorted, twisted, and re-engineered the breastplate into a full body suit with retractable helmet... If there was magic to upset, it would have been upset already.

I don't think the argument that the weapon is "included" with the armor model relevant - I see that as buying a remote with batteries included - it doesn't mean they are one and the same.

As for level 9, the issues are two-fold:
1) Would magic armor invalidate all four pieces for infusions, or just the "armor"?
2) The text says "Each of those items can bear one of your infusions." This may even imply that all pieces can bear an infusion regardless of whether the base suit was magical.

I actually agree with your interpretation on level 9, but I don't think it's crystal clear. As for implications for level 3, I don't think that's as simple. Just because it says the armor pieces count as separate items doesn't mean the weapon wasn't separate to begin with. Why would they even include it then? Probably due to the next part: two free infusions as long as they are used on two of those four components. If they left off the weapon from the list, it would have been a less useful feature.

[casb1965]

I'm struggling what is so difficult to understand in such a simple idea so I shall go back to Tashas and quote again.

"Arcane Armor
3rd-level Armorer feature

Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand."

"Armor Modifications
9th-level Armorer feature

You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon."

It couldn't be any clearer. At 3rd level you can produce "a suit of armour" and at 9th level "That suit of armour is now individual pieces" so until you reach level 9 your armour is a complete suit and not individual parts because if it were individual parts then level 9 beomes defunct as a skill.

[Stangler]

I'm struggling what is so difficult to understand in such a simple idea so I shall go back to Tashas and quote again.

"Arcane Armor
3rd-level Armorer feature

Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand."

"Armor Modifications
9th-level Armorer feature

You learn how to use your artificer infusions to specially modify your Arcane Armor. That armor now counts as separate items for the purposes of your Infuse Items feature: armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet, and the armor’s special weapon."

It couldn't be any clearer. At 3rd level you can produce "a suit of armour" and at 9th level "That suit of armour is now individual pieces" so until you reach level 9 your armour is a complete suit and not individual parts because if it were individual parts then level 9 beomes defunct as a skill.

The general rules don’t limit infusions to armour or helmet or boots. A battle smith could always use an infusion for a helmet or boots and their armour. The idea that there is some rule that they don’t get to do that because this rule can be misinterpreted to mean that they can’t relies on the reader to invent a general rule that was never written.

The rule you are focusing on definitely reads as an exception rule but it doesn’t actually reference the general rule it is making an exception to so confusion is warranted. It makes no sense for the exception rules to create a general rule that doesn’t exist anywhere else but that is what you are doing.

There are general rules that do exist that may be what is referenced. Specifically rules about how the arcane armour works together or the limited use of armour infusions. Plus it is very clear that the feature here is about increased infusions with the limit of the specific pieces.

The bottom line is that if you think that the rules you are quoting create an exception to a general rule then quote the general rule. Problem is it doesn’t exist.